DREAMING YOURSELF AWAKE: UNCORKED with LENORE WALKER

What if the most honest conversation you ever have with yourself happens while you're asleep? What if your dreams are not random neurological noise but messages from a deeper intelligence within you that refuses to be silenced?

In this captivating UNCORKED conversation, Tim Windsor sits down with psychotherapist Lenore Walker to explore the mysterious world of dreams and what they might be trying to tell us about who we truly are. As Lenore explains, dreams may not be an escape from reality at all; they may be an encounter with it. Together, they explore the uncharted depths of the human mind, discussing Carl Jung, symbols and patterns, nightmares, intuition, and the idea that dreams might be a kind of inner language that speaks when our waking mind finally quiets enough to listen. Along the way, Tim shares a vivid and life-changing dream that transformed his approach to leadership in Mozambique, and Lenore challenges listeners to reconsider what happens each night when their head hits the pillow. 

This episode serves as both an invitation and a challenge. Pay close attention to what your soul might be revealing while your ego rests. Observe the symbols. Notice the patterns. Write down your dreams before the world rushes in. And most importantly, dare to explore the inner landscape you usually ignore. Because if Lenore is right, your dreams could be guiding you toward the life you are meant to live.

Tim Windsor
the UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast – Host & Guide
tim@uncommodified.com
https://uncommodified.com/

PRODUCERS: Alyne Gagne & Kris MacQueen 
MUSIC BY: https://themacqueens.ca/

Transcript

PLEASE NOTE: UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast episode transcriptions are raw text files and have not been proofed or edited. They are what they are … Happy Reading.

© UNCOMMODiFiED & TIM WINDSOR

What if the most honest conversation you're having is not the one you speak out loud, but the one you have in your mind when your mind whispers to you while you're asleep? What if your dreams are not random noise or late night brain static, but intelligent signals trying to get your attention, signals about your fear or your desire, or maybe unresolved grief, ambition, love, regret, possibility.

We spend our waking hours trying to stay in control, stay productive, stay in, composed, and yet every night our subconscious grabs a megaphone and tells us some truth. Consider this. The goal shouldn't be to silence those dreams, but to listen longer and with more humility, because maybe dreaming is not an escape from reality.

It is a deep confrontation with it. Hey, my friends. Welcome back to the Unmodified podcast. My guest today on the show once again is Lenore Walker. Lenore, welcome to the show.[00:01:00] 

Thank.

We're gonna have some fun. Now, I, I wanna officially introduce Lenore tonight a little differently. So Lenore and I were chatting, you know, if you follow along, you know that Lenore's been on the show a couple of times, and that Lenore is a great friend of myself and my wife Pam.

We've known her for about 30 years plus. And so tonight I wanna officially introduce Lenore as the resident psychotherapist of the Unmodified podcast. Lenore, welcome as this now. Thank you.

Thank you. It is a real honor and it's such a treat for me to be able to share this way because it lets me reach more people. And hopefully some people who maybe can't afford therapy at this time, but they've had some questions about some of the topics that we're gonna talk about. It might just help them to kind of make their way onward.

Absolutely. And I, I'm all for what Leno just said. And then I'm gonna add, because I, everybody needs a psychotherapist. I think. I definitely know I need one. So if you're listening [00:02:00] and you need a psychotherapist, clap your hands. I like that right there. Excellent. Let's clap our hands for that. Lenora. I love this.

And of course, this is an uncorked conversation. And sir, we're gonna uncork it in a little untraditional way tonight. Uh, what are you drinking?

So I'm drinking something that originally came from India 

Okay. 

Uh, I

gotta give it a little stir with my cinnamon stick. It's called Gold milk.

Gold

And um, where I really first found out about it was 10 years ago. Uh, from Yna Yin. If you aren't following her, I highly recommend her. She's an amazing young woman in Sweden.

Anyway, she shared, this recipe for it and it's really kind of become a world over nighttime tonic and it has all good natural ingredients in it, and it actually can help promote healthy sleep.

So that's why I chose [00:03:00] Gold Milk

Good choice. Good choice. I just want you to know I went to the tea cupboard tonight. Don't normally drink tea. Of course, if you listen in, I usually, I'm into the beer or scotch. And of course with Lenora, I'm into the whiskey too 'cause she likes the whiskey. But, uh, tonight we did this a little different.

I went to the, the cupboard and I wanted to find sleepy time tea because I thought that'd be fun. I couldn't find any sleepy time tea. But I do have, I love, uh, licorice tea. So I have licorice spice tea and so I'm gonna drink that. So cheers tea, 

That's great. Cheers.

You know, I do like the licorice spice. Okay, let me kick this conversation off. Of course you should know by now listeners that you're listening for a reason. I always say that and obviously based on my introduction you might have figured out that we're gonna braille into the idea of our dreams and our dream world.

And it comes a little bit out of our last conversation, Lenore, we had, 'cause you made some comments about the wonderful world of Alice. And some of the things that could happen down that rabbit, hole as we go down, that's kind of fun. But I'm just gonna [00:04:00] start here, right on the nose of this and ask you a question and we'll just sort of move in and figure this out.

So I'm very interested in dreams. I find them fascinating, but I really would like to start with this just very basic question. Why, why do we dream, potentially, and like what are they? Are they? Is it always the same thing or is it something different? Like, how do we get in here? So take us into this world and help us understand it a little bit more, and let's see where we go with the conversation.

It's a really big picture question, and I love where we're starting because it's kind of a metaphor for, how we do live with our dreams. It's usually there's. To big picture, and then there's our own local journey that kind of factors into that. I'm not sure that I would be the best to answer those questions.

There are volumes and volumes written about them, but from my humble perspective, I find that dreams are a way that a human soul [00:05:00] develops another system of language and self-expression that's just Lenore defining that. What was the next part of your question? Sorry.

So, so I wanna know like, why do we dream? What are our dreams? So why do we have these things?

My sense about why we dream and I'm, I'm not always so, um, aligned with the questions of why, although I appreciate them because I find that they can. Kind of narrow our focus to trying to get just an intellectual answer, which is a value. I like to ask, what are dreams doing? What? So I'm, I'm kind of

sherlocking 

my way? 

or Agatha Christie my way through this,

Well, I let, let me put it this way. I'm gonna just, I'm gonna give the wheel of this conversation over to you right now because You're right. See, I'm already in my head too much. I'm already trying to figure this 

Well, we need that though.

That's. 

know, but [00:06:00] I put my hand up.

This is true. I, I'm trying to intellectualize the shit outta this already. 

Well, this is what's really cool is we are so enculturated here in North America to aim at anything from our rational intellectual function, and that does serve us well to a point. However, like I said the last time, there are many different databases. We operate on different functions, and those don't always get as much airtime in the way that we've been socialized to behave and perform, quite frankly, in our culture as the intellect, you know, that's the one that everyone thinks is verifiable.

That's the one that's got the quantitative evidence backing, you know, the evidentiary based outcomes, all of that. Yet even scientists will be the first to say to you that there is something mythological and [00:07:00] mysterious about what it means to be human in this amazing cosmos and on this planet floating in the mix of this galaxy.

So I'd like to ask the question, what are dreams, which. I can't easily answer. There are lots of answers that are given where they're just residue from your day or it's your psyche trying to work things out and the sleep time. Uh, there's tons of answers. There's as many answers as there are many people.

I like to do is just say, okay, they're happening,

Yes, they and go with that. Um. I don't always need to know the origin story of where something comes from. The fact that in my present here and now moment it's happening to me is probably worth my paying attention to. So if you're a person who does dream and you find [00:08:00] them kind of a combination of fascinating and confusing and mystifying.

If there's room for you at the table, if you're a person who doesn't dream or you don't remember your dreams, there's room for you at this table. And if you're someone who daydreams almost exclusively and doesn't have seemingly night dreams, there's room for you at this table. And if you think dreams are just. Poppycock, then there's room for you at this table too,

Well, there's a, you know what? There's a lot. You know what? I love this. There's a lot of room at the table

there's a lot of room at the table.

love that. 

um, you know, dreams I find personally are a different language that we all have available.

Hmm.

Maybe that's not even the best way to describe it. Perhaps it's better described as. An [00:09:00] undiscovered country within the 

self, and I really like this idea of borrowing travel metaphors with dreams because I don't know how your dreams are.

Mine are the kind that when I go to sleep, I enter this terrain that both feels familiar yet. Very numinous and different and almost alien,

you know? And it's fascinating and also at times a little scary, if I'm gonna be honest, and everything in between. And so dreams though, I feel are like a portal for our soul to actually communicate with our waking self.

They offer content to us that [00:10:00] personally, I believe, comes from this deep inner reservoir of wisdom that each of us actually have for our own life's journey. Some people don't believe they have that. But I tend to think that we do. I really have found in my work with clients in my own journey that there's a, a whole lot of wisdom already inside there, that I'm actually already whole.

It's just that life circumstances, certain encounters I've had along the way caused me to doubt that or to not believe that Dreams I think, are. Maybe our biggest cheerleader that there is wisdom actually deep inside, and that we each come equipped with our own personal GPS locate system. And dreams are the way that it kind of conveys messages and guidance for our day-to-day life.

[00:11:00] However, it offers it in such a way that we are challenged and captivated at the same time. Maybe it's because dreams know that unless that combination exists, we would be very prone to throw them under the threshold

Huh, interesting. So, you know, you've used this term. So first of all, this is gonna be a great conversation and I, I'm already just, my mind's already spinning all over the place, which I really love. 

Um. 

mind.

I like, my mind when it gets, like, I'm like, what? What? What am I hearing? I love this. So you've, you used the term several times when we've chatted before, whether it's on the podcast or whether we're just chatting over dinner at our house, this, this term, throwing something under the threshold.

Can you just. I, I, you know, I, I'd like to believe, I think I know what that means, and maybe my listeners do, but I, can you help me understand when you use that term therapeutically or as a psychotherapist or just as [00:12:00] Lenoir, what does that mean to you and how should I, or might I wanna understand that?

So that's an excellent question and that's great because we don't wanna assume, you know, from a phrase that I use quite frequently, that we understand its implications. So. I tend to think that we come to the world wired with various components, and I'm grounded in the work of Dr. Carl Yum. And so I've adopted and adapted some of his approach, which he would've said this, that when, when we come into this physical form, we actually come as a whole being. There's this thing that happens where we kind of maybe come through this dimension or veil where we forget certain things about our essential, authentic self, and as we begin to grow up. We're young children. We're [00:13:00] picking up a lot of information from our environment and figuring out how we fit in. And that is the ego's job to figure out how we fit in.

That can include roles that we, you know, adopt, uh, like sister, friend, daughter, whatever. , It can include certain preferences. About the way we keep ourselves safe, and all of this kind of gets collected into this template or system that we use. It sometimes also comes with a persona or a mask of how we present ourselves to the world, and we actually need this.

Because it is what keeps us safe and helps us figure out how to navigate the human collective we find ourselves in early in life. And for some people the, this is what has actually saved their lives, you know, to get to adulthood because they were born into very tragic and [00:14:00] difficult situations.

Hmm.

The thing with the ego though, is that it's really good at kind of thinking ahead, projecting ahead.

Reacting based on what it thinks is quantitative evidence but isn't, and it shapes this kind of template of how things should go and what can be. And if it doesn't fit into that, it throws it under the threshold.

Hmm.

So when we throw something under the threshold, it, it doesn't just go away. It actually goes into what I call the deep brewing space within the human organism, and that is the area of soul, psyche, and often the authentic self.

The authentic self is just a really good caregiver. It, it takes really good care of all that, and it says, oh, you know, there's a [00:15:00] dissonance here, or a, a fracture or a break, or a fragmentation between how I'm showing up in the world and what I really believe to be true.

And so I'm going to use the mystery of the dream time to let it percolate up to.

The subconscious in the hopes that I'm personifying this a lot, but in the hopes that when the dreamer wakes images will linger and those images are gonna be so soaked with meaning, but a little bit confounding that it's going to grab their attention and cause them to go, Hmm, I wonder what that's about.

You know, but it's right at that juncture with the dream that the ego could come back on board. Even the dream ego can come on board and say, Nope, we're not going there. And so again, [00:16:00] kind of gets put off to the back burner. But I have to say something is that I have not met one person yet, including myself. Who has not had things that they have thrown under the threshold, whether unconsciously or consciously, that didn't percolate back up to the consciousness somehow at a later time in life.

Hmm. That's, that's fascinating. So I really love the, the metaphor and the imagery, which is interesting because that's the one thing I find fascinating about dreams. It's not like when I dream, it's not like I'm, hearing a speech. it's the imagery, it's the, the movie that I'm in.

Which is really interesting 'cause it isn't just word, it isn't just, I'm not just hearing a voice. I'm, I'm in a play. I'm, I'm an actor at a play. Sometimes I'm an observer, sometimes I'm, you know, sometimes it's like a first player sort of role, role play game. But I'm, I'm inside of this thing. And [00:17:00] so what you're partly telling me is from your vantage point and from your understanding.

Part of that is my own inner wisdom. Speaking to me, potentially the thing that I've already, uh, I have had but somehow gets lost in the midst of my life or my day. And some of it might be that my, that inner wisdom bringing up things to me that I've, tried to or wanted to bury, uh, under that threshold so I don't have to think about them or figure them out.

That's sort of interesting. So can I ask you, is that why potentially, so. I don't know if everybody has, but you know, I have some reoccurring dreams that I have. I have the same, it's almost exactly the same dream every time. the only thing different is the person in the dream other than me, and it's usually somebody I don't know. So it's not somebody that's known to me, but I have the same dream and I have the same, it's the same pathway I take in this house that I dream in. I have the same, [00:18:00] uh, epiphany each time. Like I'm having it the same for the first time every time, yet I already know it. It's this sort of strange thing. so 

so how would I wanna approach thinking about that?

Well, first of all, it's really important for us to realize that the dream imagery. Contains symbols, not signs, signs of directions, you know, stop, go cautions, you know, whatever. But symbols are latent with this numinous imagery that is hard to figure out. And that's the whole point because they are a way of knowing that.

For the first foray bypasses our intellect and even bypasses our ability to construct language around what we're seeing, which is actually very important when you look at the brain because when the brain goes [00:19:00] to the intellectual function and the language center first, we usually lose. The database that comes from the emotion tones, from the intuition, from the instinct and from the body sensations.

And those are all very important, frameworks to, to factor in here that we get information through. So, you know, the dream imagery is meant to be a little strange or captivating, because they carry emotion primarily.

Interesting.

they're they're asking for us to emotionally engage on the border of transformation.

You know, because dreams usually are all about us having to continue to evolve our identity as we know it. So we're going into, like I said before, the undiscovered country. Now, in answer to your [00:20:00] specific dream, usually when a client comes to me and we've tracked the same kind of trappings of a dream over time, we've now got a beautiful pattern.

That can really be helpful. And and usually the ancient understanding, and this comes from shamanic and indigenous traditions, which I borrow from and so did Yung, is if the dreamer dreams that way, it's because they're becoming more deeply in touch with their life and their soul's work.

Hmm.

So what they are made to bring to the collective.

In a co-creative way, and so those dreams are really significant. That's when we do want to sit down with someone who knows how to work with this to come alongside you to help you see the [00:21:00] associations you make to the various symbol pieces in your dream. So the imagery, what it represents to you, and then what sense it makes of it.

But also to throw into the mix the counter hypothesis, just so the dream ego also. Doesn't go into hyper safety mode and keep you just almost bypassing the real heart of the message. Because we're very interesting creatures. We are all about our own safety, and we will bypass a message that feels uncomfortable for us because there's a place deep in every one of us that feels, I just don't have the distress tolerance for that, 

or the patients or whatever.

Yeah. By the way, if you're watching on the YouTube channel, you're seeing my perplexed face a lot right now. 'cause I am like perplexed. I'm like, which I love by the way. I mean, there's nothing like a good, well, first of all, nothing like a good licorice [00:22:00] tea. Mm. But there's nothing like a really great dose of perplex where you just like sit back and you rub your chin and you go, holy shit.

That is really perplexing, 

this stuff. So 

again, if 

you're listening in, I 

always say you're listening for a reason. Remember, you're listening for a reason. I hope you're getting perplexed about your life and about your ego and about your dreams and about your most authentic unmodified self that's trying to find its way from underneath.

It's, I mean, I, this is, I love this conversation, Lenore. So, and what I love about, it's, we don't rehearse these conversations, so we say, Hey, let's talk about dreams, and then we gotta figure it out as we go. So, okay. Can, can I do something now, which I never prepared you for. I wanna do a, so I, I like to understand this about dreams.

So. I've had dreams at times in my life that were absolutely critical in the moment they were, I, I found them wonderfully instructive. I found them. Um, uh. I would [00:23:00] say revelatory. I, I would use that word where I was confused and trying to figure something out and I had a dream. And in that dream actually brought tremendous clarity 

to me, direction.

Um, a lot of different things. Um, what's that all about?

Well. I can do is answer from my own experience in that, that I've kind of gathered and gleaned from working with people and The dreams that we remember are usually soul work. In my humble opinion. The ones that we don't remember are usually preparation for the ones that we will remember 

and dreams that give direction that's specific to the moment do occur. What I find intriguing, 'cause I just had one of those a few months ago, and it was incredibly specific to the actual circumstances I found [00:24:00] myself in, which were unexpected and. Yet still there, we wanna look at our imagery and just be sure that we check our associations and, and what possibilities those pieces of the dream might represent for us.

So for instance, in my dream, I was driving in my car and I, I thought, oh, I'll go the scenic route. And that was just a little diversion through my neighborhood. And in the dream, I heard a voice actually say, which is very rare for me, this seldom happens, which is why it was so memorable and why I could see it was so specific in its guidance for that moment.

But I heard a voice say, Lenore, please take the most direct route. and then I woke up and I went. Oh [00:25:00] my goodness, because the circumstance I was in had numerous options, all of which were good, and I couldn't really tell which would be maybe better. 

Hmm. 

in truth, neither was better.

However, in the mystery of all that is something new that I needed some support. Guidance about taking a specific path. 'cause I very rarely am in a decision making conundrum, but this time I was and as I was waking up in the dream, I was rerouting the car to go the more straightforward route. When I woke up, I thought, oh, I know what I need to do.

Interesting. So, so let, let's just talk about that for a second and, and then I, I'll share my dream just 'cause it's interesting to me and I, I don't really share it a lot and I'll articulate it on the podcast 'cause I think it's interesting, but let's talk about that for a second. So we talked about the inner wisdom [00:26:00] speaking, maybe our inner wisdom, speaking through dreams, things that we may be sort of pushed down.

They come up and they come and they, find us in this case. For you? Do you feel like the source of that wisdom was your inner wisdom? Do you feel that that was some spiritual wisdom beyond you trying to find you when you're in a place where you'd be open enough to hear it?

Like how do you look at that

All of 

all, all of it and 

So, and, and that allows me to talk about something that I think is really important in these times, which dreams touch on. This is. Yes, it was my inner wisdom. Yes, it was a type of source wisdom that young would've called the transcendent function, the self who becomes whole. So capital S, self, and also source that is beyond me because I'm part of a cosmos of many [00:27:00] energies, benni and otherwise, that are existing here.

All these energies are here to help me, even if they seem not so helpful. By contrast, they can help instruct and guide me and help me clarify thought. This is where I feel that in these times, it's incredibly important for us to acknowledge our dreams a little bit more because when you do. You're actually getting a straight line into who you really are,

Hmm.

what this gig we've called life is all about, and where you fit in that cosmology. We're not talking theology. We're not even talking spirituality here. We're talking cosmology and Yung was all about that. It was, where are you in this big, big [00:28:00] picture? Because it matters. And we are gleaning transpersonal energy from a larger collective storyline that is so much more than a story. It's a mythology and a poetry and an art form all rolled up into one.

And we are smaller microcosmic representations of that same thing.

So in answer to your question, yes, all of the above.

Yes, all of the above. Awesome. Again, if you're listening, I always say you're listening for a reason. This is a great conversation and these are the kind of conversations that Lenora are gonna have, uh, more times in 2026 as we get together to talk about some things that come out of her experience and out of her, uh, learning.

And I really love it. So, so let me give you the circumstance and share the dream I had because it was it in fact. it actually now resides on my shoulder, as a tattoo to be honest, 

this dream. So. I was doing a lot of work in [00:29:00] Africa at the time in Mozambique, uh, particularly, and I had developed a program where I was training government leaders, um, leadership skills, and I was, I was flying over every two months or a week at a time for almost two years, and I was running a program funded all ourselves.

I was really struggling in the beginning days because it was very clear that some of the people in the group were, that weren't there for maybe the right reasons, and I felt like I was being played a little bit and there was a lot of competition for individual time with me, and I couldn't figure out who I should say yes to, and I felt very torn and and conflicted.

It was real, a real struggle for me. And I went to bed one evening and I had this dream, and this dream was transformative to me. It changed the way it gave me direction and changed the way I approached it. In this dream, I walked up a hill and there was a castle at the top of this hill. The castle was beautiful.

It looked just like a traditional castle in my mind and my dream that you would see, you know, in medieval [00:30:00] times. This, the one thing outta place about the castle though, and I'll come to this later, was the windows were all the shapes of stars. The castle was intact as a regular castle, but the one thing I noted was it had star shaped windows, which was strange to me.

I walked in to the FOIA of this castle, and it was very clear to me that I, I felt compulsed to go up the stairs. I don't know why. I just felt like I needed to send the stairs, and when I went up the staircase, I came to the this, this top, and it was an open rooftop. To the sky, and the sky was brilliant.

The sun was, was, was, was brilliantly shining. The sky was blue and there was a circle of African Mozambique men. That were around al around the edge, almost like Knights would be around a round table, but they're around. This was a round sort of turret, but it was open to the sky and there was all of these mozambican men sang in the outside and a and a very clearly stately kingly [00:31:00] figure to me, although I never saw them.

I felt it, their presence, and I felt an invitation to come and kneel in the middle of the circle. And so I went to the middle of the circle and I knelt down. And when I knelt down, all of a sudden as I looked up an eagle came and began to encircle the top of this castle. As it got closer, I noticed that it had a, like a red sort of sash, in its beak.

And by the way, I don't usually dream this vividly, but this is exactly the dream. And then what happened was, I heard that voice again of that sort of stately figure. , Come into my mind or how it worked. And as the eagle encircle, the eagle laid that sash on the shoulder of some of the men, but not all of them, and then in its last sort of thing, brought that and put it on my [00:32:00] shoulder and I heard just as clear as day from this sort of stately kingly presence.

This is compassion. And my dream was over. And so I woke up and it was just this vivid dream. I recorded it, I wrote it down, and uh, I began to very quickly have this sense that the instructive wisdom I was looking for is I needed to find men who had authority. But compassion, because compassion was the balancing force that would get them to use their authority and power in that culture for good and not for bad purposes.

So it became very quickly clear to me. That was the instruction. The strange thing though, was I couldn't understand the star windows until I shared the dream with the nurses I was working with. And when I told Tracy Evans, the weirdest thing is it was the windows were star shaped. She said, well, that's not weird at all.

She, and she showed me a Mozambique flag, which [00:33:00] is encircled in stars. It's a circle of stars. And so. It was very clear to me, at least, again, maybe I made it all up, but it was very clear to me that this was in structural wisdom. And so what I did then in the next two years I worked there, that when I saw, when I encountered primarily men, it was men leaders there.

When I found men who were men of great authority, but tremendous compassion, those are the people I invested more in. It became this instructional guide. And so on my upper arm I have this tattoo of an eagle with the sash in its, beak. And it says, written on the sash is compassion. And so there's this wonderful balance between power and authority and, and compassion for using that authority in ways that is for the benefit of others.

So that's I've had lots of different dreams, but that was the clearest, most instructional dream I've ever had in my life.

That's amazing and the fact that she, [00:34:00] so. Vividly recounted it here, shows that you showed up to it and you made a commitment to your own soul to prioritize the relationship that you have with yourself and the dialogue that you have with yourself. Which is really what dreams are asking us to do. And just as an aside, as your local art therapist, I love that you went and took the imagery and actually put it on your body.

You know, not saying everybody has to do that, but I have numerous clients who have had some. Some significant symbol come to them and they have chosen to get a tattoo or have an artwork make or make an artwork of their own or find someone who could do that for them because you see, these are the symbols that come along with the map of our consciousness,

Hmm.

so they continue to be like way markers.[00:35:00] 

Along the way, we, we can go back and recall that and look at that and it stands the test of time. You know, it continues to speak long after the incident, that the dream and the timing in which the dream occurred because it's so much bigger and this is where we're getting into cosmology, you know, that bigger story, I mean, what you touched on here. Is a principle of living as a authentic, kind, loving human in a vast universe. and just as an aside,

Yeah.

for those of your listeners who may be of more of a esoteric persuasion. There is fairly good evidence that we are not alone here

Hmm.

and that there are many [00:36:00] benefic energies and other beings who are supporting us and who knows how they communicate. They may be able to, with some kind of, I don't know, protocol, be able to touch into. Our experience here because they care about what we're doing here. 'cause we're part of a much bigger thing and supporting us. And I've had clients say to me, you're gonna think I'm nuts. You're gonna think I'm nuts. I said, no.

I pretty much heard quite a bit here. You know, and they tell me about these encounters that they've had. I've even had one where the dream became a little bit like a hologram. And, and when you know, they wake up, they don't know where they are. And sometimes I have wondered, I thought, you know, I wonder what's really going on [00:37:00] there.

It is not a psychotic break. There is no negative episode going on here. These are balanced people who are doing the work, doing their life, and. You know, something transcendent is occurring there, so I just wanna make some room for that. I don't know what that actually is, but I'm certainly not factoring it out.

Yeah. And that's good. And I think that's important. And again, if you're listening in, you know, you're gonna, grid this conversation through your lived experience, through your upbringing, through your beliefs, lots of different things. So, listen, I, I, I. I hesitate to bring this up at this point in the conversation, but I think it's important, you know, some people have dreams that aren't so wonderful.

You know, we, I think we, we call them nightmares and, um, some people suffer debilitating nightmares. I, I know some people who have reoccurring nightmares and they're, they're debilitating and quite frightening to them. I is is there a difference when it comes [00:38:00] to nightmares? is it the same thing?

if their dream is wonderful and the dream is a nightmare, is it exactly the same thing or what's the understanding or belief or psychology around that? Or maybe, you know, what did young say about these things? Let's say, for instance in your study,

So, of course you know there are nuances in every dream and some people who've gone through significant trauma, their dreams are very haunting and very upsetting and. Nightmares. Yes. Um, they can be recurring in some ways the same, ideas that we're bouncing around here apply. However, I wanna be very sensitively attuned to that.

For some people, going to sleep at night is absolutely terrifying because they don't have any control over this, and so. It isn't a fun ride. And at that point I think it's really important to find a trauma-informed therapist because there are some things happening there that [00:39:00] definitely still are helpful information, but you need someone to come alongside and co-regulate your nervous system,

Hmm.

you know, and I think this is a really huge piece, especially going forward in the world that we're living in. Whatever it is that brings you calm, do as much of that as you can. You know, as long as it's not an addiction. but you know, for some it's going out in nature. For some it's. Taking a bath or a shower for some it's, you know, sipping your favorite soup. For some it's, you know, putting on calming music or music that really, you know, helps you kind of drop into that center.

So there's that piece. But also I have had the rare client who's had that experience and they have actually worked to shut down. This is where the human system is quite fascinating to shut down [00:40:00] their dreaming at night and they are my daydreamers

Hmm.

and so. They are dreaming, they, and then they get diagnosed with a DHD and I'm like, no, it, it is not.

Maybe that, you know, I don't like these pathologizing terms. I think that we are so much more complex than that. However, for treatment purposes, I understand that methodology, but what if the daydream actually becomes the story that heals? That you are imagining and hoping for, and that even in the daydream, if there are certain things that you're daydreaming about that kind of go south or go wrong, these are the stories that maybe don't need to happen,

Hmm.

and they're instructive that way.

Interesting.

Now getting back to nightmares, you know, Jung had a beautiful, metaphor that And I think [00:41:00] we talked about this last

time. You know a mare is a female horse and a nightmare. Well, you are riding the darkness of the night on that deep, divine feminine energy that's moving toward the breaking dawn.

So it takes some of the edge off to use some of the imagery and the symbolism to bring consolation and comfort. Now, for some people, that isn't gonna work.

Right.

And there's, I mean, trauma informed care is just so, there's so much in it, but in a nutshell, a good trauma informed therapist is going to help you learn where you are, picking up your sensations in your body, what cues and clues there, those are giving you.

How you then kind of select a tailor-made self-regulating practice, which doesn't always include [00:42:00] mindful meditation and breath work. 'cause some people just can't do it. I was that way back in my thirties. I couldn't get a breath further than here. I was so stressed out so that would not have worked for me.

But I can appreciate that There are other ways that you can work with. Things that soothe and bring the calm and that it is absolutely critical that you have somebody who is really skilled in this and trained to come alongside to help you regulate your nervous system. This is the parenting you probably never got.

Mm-hmm.

that's what co-regulation is, is to have somebody there with you who, when you kind of start losing it can say, okay, yeah, I see that. I hear it. I believe you, and I'm here. And how about we try this together

so that you're not alone, you know?

Yeah, that makes 

sense. 

So [00:43:00] the whole thing about nightmares is it's very complex. I think at that point you're gonna be wanting to work with a trauma informed therapist and if at all possible, a union analyst who is also a trauma informed therapist.

'cause there you've got, kind of the full, approach where you've got someone who really can help you with the symbology of your dreams from that. Kind of center, but also really understands what's going on with your physiology and your nervous system.

Yeah. And uh, and again, I know we, touched on this a little bit in our last conversation, but I just thought in context I wanted to bring in a little bit back into this

It's important. A lot of people have them and, and especially now because we are bombarded by imagery that is very dysregulating and upsetting at the time When we're recording this January of 2026. Has been a shocking month on the face of the planet, and we are seeing things we never thought we were [00:44:00] gonna see again, some of us or ever, you know?

And so just those images can kind of push out, you know, our own ability to regulate ourselves, which is why also I like to encourage people to go to your dreams if they're not dysregulating because. That imagery is your original medicine,

Hmm.

and it can push away and make room for your way of being and navigating your life with field notes for your journey that come from your dreams.

Wow, that's powerful. I, well, what you just said there, that is super powerful. So listen, this is a great conversation and again, if you're listening, I always say you're listening for a reason. And so I got just a couple of quick questions and then we're gonna wrap up and then I'm gonna, I'm gonna sort of.

I'm gonna tease out what I think [00:45:00] our next conversation could be about. We'll wet people's appetite. Um, we'll see about that. But, so first of all, I wanna, go back to, you talked about symbols. You talk about signs and symbols. I just have one quick question about that. So is are, when I'm looking at my dream, is it less about decoding the symbols and more about noticing patterns?

Do you think?

It's both. 

okay. It's both. Okay.

Uh, I like to say both and that's always my default maybe. But I, I find that the symbols. As they show up, you may well find if you are able to kinda show up to yourself and be willing to engage in this type of dialogue with your dreams they're gonna reveal the patterns because oftentimes, even though the symbols may change a little bit, what you associate to them and what they represent for you may be somewhat similar.

And so now you are tracking. Your journey, [00:46:00] you know, you're actually picking your path of travel in your map of the conscious, 

Huh. 

and the conscious.

Interesting. No, that's really very fascinating. So, okay, so I got a question for you. Great conversation. And again, if you're listening in. Uh, contemplate. Maybe, uh, you know, by this time you might be having a need, a scotch, not a tea. You do what you need to do to have the conversation,

but great. Or scotch in your tea.

But, um, again, I think what Lenora said is really wise is if this has maybe stirred something in you that you need to process, find a professional that can help you process it if you need to. Uh, if you're struggling with nightmares, and again, there's some really good advice that Lenora encouraged you to consider getting some help and getting somebody to help you through that and figuring that that way through, we're touching into an area that.

Has, uh, a lot of really wonderful excitement for some and maybe some terror for others. And so it's not an easy conversation, but I really felt stirred that I wanted to have it with you, Lenore, and I appreciate your [00:47:00] carefulness in the conversation. You're always very careful in the choice of your words and prudent in your application, which I really, uh, I really have a lot of respect for.

So thanks for that. It's a great conversation. So. Lenora, you're pressing into some other really fascinating worlds. At this time, it's early January. You know, you, I know you've been working on a book, which is gonna be coming out, and that's gonna be cool. I know you've got a series of really interesting, cards that, a deck of cards that you've created.

And, and Pam and I had a chance to spend some time with you recently and, enter into that world with you, which was very interesting. Um. Now I'm asking you publicly, but you could say no. I think that could be an interesting conversation and I'd love to have it with you at some point.

Okay, well everyone will have to kind of batten down the hatches 'cause it's my life journey and it is interesting. It's, um, however that said, I would love that. This is the whole point of why I [00:48:00] really appreciate the work of Carl Jung because it was very humanizing when I was a little girl. The things that I am doing now, of course, they're have taken on a more complex manifestation, but I was connecting to these things when I was three and three quarters years old.

Hmm.

So, you know, there is a lot to be said for this ability and willingness to commit to yourself. With attentiveness and attunement and acceptance and appreciation and, uh, healthy affection for yourself and allowing these various ways of knowing to be engaged with and participated in. I have been doing this all my life on some level, knowingly or unknowingly, mostly knowingly, and was very fortunate to have a couple people in my journey early on who really supported it and said, yes, that's valid.[00:49:00] 

When you have dreams, that's valid, you know? Um, when you find yourself drawn to certain emotion tones or energies or imagery, that's valid. So I'm very grateful for that and I think it has helped me to become who I was meant to be and bring what I've, I've been made to bring. But most certainly all of that that may come up for our next time is, um, just a real interesting combination of various journeys I've taken through the terrain of.

My own soul, both in my day to day, but also in the dreamscape,

Yeah, and that's kind of interesting 'cause it's, it's kind of exciting 'cause you know, whether it's a waking, dream, or a sleeping dream. You know, you, you have endeavored to stay connected to a dream that's obviously been within your soul and psyche for a long time.

And that's [00:50:00] kind of an interesting thing for me. So yes, I wanna explore that the next time we chat that, will be fascinating. And, and again, it won't be for everybody and that's okay. but it'll be for lots of people and it'll be a lot for my listeners and, at the end of the day.

I'm gonna love the conversation 'cause I found the whole thing quite fascinating. For sure. So, listen, I'm gonna ask you this if, as we finish up just one last word that I'm gonna give you on this subject matter, but before I do that, if people wanted to track you down, particularly maybe to find out a little bit more of this world, we're gonna talk about maybe where's the best way for them to find you and and find this world that we're gonna talk about later than the 

So you can find me for that on Instagram. On

Instagram right now, and I must be honest, I am really struggling with being on Instagram just because of the state of things, you know, and Facebook and all of that. But for now, that's what I'm using until I can come to a final decision. But actually to see the cards, which I do, [00:51:00] offer one per weekend, and it flows into the, the following week, you can find me on Instagram at Wise.

Woman walking and walking is spelled like W-A-U-L-K-I-N-G. That is the ancient Celtic term for the last name Walker. It's walking the cloth. And those who follow those traditions will understand that. So wise woman walking, W-A-U-L-K-I-N-G, that's where you can find that. You can also find me, um, with the combination of things on, um, for the art of living.

Uh, that's also an Instagram handle that I use, but the wise woman walking is specifically for, those cards and that imagery.

Awesome. So I'm gonna challenge your listeners. You should hunt that down and you should baptize yourself in that [00:52:00] world before you come and listen to our next conversation 'cause it's gonna be great. The last word on dreams I'm gonna give to you. So dreams. if people could just take one thing from this encouragement, you'd want to give them boat.

When they go to sleep tonight after listening to this and they happen to have a dream that they might remember, what's your wisest provocation that you'd wanna give them as they wake tomorrow?

Well, when you wake up. Be as receptive as possible and try not to turn on the lights

and go to bed with your phone display on the dimmi setting. It can be on while, you can still see it a little bit, and then many people have a hard time because morning it's like you gotta get at it really quick. Do a speech to text recording of a journal entry, so to speak, of your dream.

Because then you just captured it. And then you can do the handwritten thing, which [00:53:00] is important to use your written handwriting, um, or print, whatever. Um. We can get into that more another time. But that's that embodied piece, and to be willing to explore it, you know, to connect with yourself. This is what you're doing.

You're going into your undiscovered country, and being able to hold the tension of not knowing right away. what that country is like, what its customs are like, what its culture is like, what its language is like. But think of it as a country you wanted to go to, even though you might've had a bit of hesitation and you're willing to kind of move with the locals and understand what's going on there.

Hmm. That's great advice. I love it. So, listen, I always say at the end, you know, you listen for a reason. I say it often throughout the podcast. And do me a favor. This is an uncorked conversation. So as you uncork this, as you, awaken this idea whether while you're sleeping or while you're at weight, do me a favor.

Email me at [00:54:00] tim@unccommodified.com or DM me and let. me know how you're processing all this and, and then I would just say very simply, until next time, do me a favor. Stay curious, stay honest with yourself about what you dream, whether it's during waking hours or sleeping hours. And ultimately, my challenge to you is when you go to sleep tonight, sleep yourself awake.

Cheers.