where WISDOM Waits: UNCORKED with LENORE WALKER

What if the greatest wisdom you'll ever discover isn't somewhere "out there"... but waiting quietly inside you?

Some conversations don't give you answers. They invite you into a different way of seeing. In this deeply thought-provoking UNCORKED conversation, Tim Windsor sits down once again with psychotherapist, artist, and returning guest Lenore Walker for one of the most unexpected conversations ever featured on UNCOMMODiFiED. Together they explore imagination and AI, the power of imagery, ancient archetypes, masculine and feminine wisdom, creativity, spirituality, and the surprising role that resistance often plays in our personal growth. Rather than asking listeners to adopt a particular belief, this conversation simply asks a far more courageous question: What if you've dismissed parts of yourself that have been trying to speak to you all along?

Throughout the conversation, you'll wrestle with ideas that challenge conventional thinking. Why do images often reach us more deeply than words? What happens when we stop trying to explain everything intellectually and allow wisdom to emerge from somewhere deeper? How do we hold tension instead of rushing to certainty? 

Whether you're a leader, creator, entrepreneur, parent, or simply someone seeking greater wholeness, this episode will encourage you to rethink how you make decisions, experience beauty, and listen to your own inner voice. You may not leave with all the answers, but you'll almost certainly leave asking better questions, and that's exactly where transformation begins.
 
Tim Windsor
the UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast – Host & Guide
tim@uncommodified.com
https://uncommodified.com/
  
PRODUCERS: Alyne Gagne & Kris MacQueen 
MUSIC BY: https://themacqueens.ca/
 
 

Transcript

TRANSCRIPTION:

PLEASE NOTE: UNCOMMODiFiED Podcast episode transcriptions are raw text files and have not been proofed or edited. They are what they are … Happy Reading.

© UNCOMMODiFiED & TIM WINDSOR

Hey, my friends. Welcome back to the UNCOMMODiFiED podcast. Uh, this is a different episode, so I'm just gonna get right into it. Thanks for listening in. I always love that you listen in. And my guest tonight on the show, once again, my resident psychotherapist and should be yours, Lenore Walker. Lenore, welcome back to the show.

Thank you.

Uh, it's awesome. Now we're gonna have a little different kind of conversation tonight, so I'll, sort of baby step my audience into this conversation. It's gonna be different, not just sort of traditional psychotherapy for Tim. It's gonna be a little bit different than that. we're actually recording this a day after International Women's Day, although we released a couple of months later.

So we're sort of in that. Ilk. But of course it's an uncorked conversation and your drink will give a little bit of a hint maybe of the conversation we're gonna have. Lenore Lenore, what are you gonna drink tonight? In celebration of our conversation?

So tonight I'm bringing my [00:01:00] homemade green goddess.

Okay. What is in a green goddess?

So this is a real healthy drink,

Okay.

and it's basically got fresh pineapple chunks, arugula, kale, 

Yeah. 

pineapple juice, cardamom, ginger, and nutmeg.

Wow. Now that sounds like a very healthy drink. Now you have the green goddess. this is definitely not any goddess drink, but I'm actually gonna have a field berry and lemon hard sparkling water made with vodka. I don't usually have one of these, but look at that. It's from Muskoka Brewery up in Northern Ontario could crack this open.

Try not to spill it on me. The other day I opened a beer in a UNCORK conversation and it was all over my crotch, so I had the wet crotch conversation. Not really something you wanna have most days. Just to be clear, I.

Nope.

It wasn't wonderful. Alright, let, let's move on to better [00:02:00] things. Alright, so we are gonna have a conversation about a journey that you've been on for a long time and it's brought you to some creative, uh, release of energy in your life because you are a very creative person, as an artist, as a thinker, as a writer, as all these things, this great amalgam that is Lenore Walker, which I love.

And, um. I think originally I got this window into your world one time recently when Pam and I were down visiting and you brought out some cards, which We're not talking traditional director cards. We're talking about that. And then you brought us into this world of a book that you were doing.

So let's just tuck into this. This conversation is all about some understanding around goddess. So again, if you're listening in, you're always listening for a reason, stay with us. Okay? Don't, get all freaked out yet. Just you can get freaked out later. You can get freaked out later if you want, but don't get freaked out yet.

Okay? So, Lenore, you've been on this journey, [00:03:00] this journey's taking you in lots of different places and your understanding and expression. So let's talk about, the book and the cards and how they start to birth in your life, and what is this all about?

Yeah, so we're kind of going from present to past here. 'cause this is a personal narrative that's also, Can't help but become part of my professional journey too. But it's largely a personal, story, you know, so back last August when I took a little vacation time, I kind of had some time to return to my art, which I've been hard pressed to make time for that, just given the necessities of life obligations to an aging parent, et cetera, et cetera, working full-time, all of that. I returned to my art and thought, you know, I've always wanted to combine my abstract artworks, which I have tended to [00:04:00] specialize in over a few decades now, and my own. Portrait photography, which is self-portrait photography, as well as my own landscape photography. 'cause I love nature and I enjoy being in it, but sometimes also capturing its moments because they're so rich with meaning and symbol through the visuals.

And I've always been on this quest to combine these three themes. Long ago when I started painting, which was coming up close to 30 years ago now.

And I mean, I was always doing that kind of work as a youngster and in my youth and in my young adulthood, but it took a real intentional step in my late twenties and early thirties.

And it's just continued on. And what I've wanted to do is actually a type of. Portraiture that takes [00:05:00] these kind of big story mythological characters and blends them with landscape as well as what holds heart and meaning for me personally throughout my life course, hence the self-portraiture because those are snapshots of my developmental path and.

Part of what happened last summer, kind of at the same time when I want to do this, was an interesting conversation that was with a number of people about ai and I was very, very hesitant. As the universe will create synchronicities, even when you're not looking up in my email feed, comes this course a nine week course on responsibly using AI as a spiritual practice, which I thought [00:06:00] was rather fascinating and I was still hesitant, but I decided to go ahead and take it because I was so resistant

I thought.

You are really creating a barrier here. How does that really work? how is your resistance gonna serve you? Lenore, it's not. So maybe you should get to know what this is really all about and take the deep dive. Probably one of the most instrumental and helpful courses I've ever taken because the instructor was well versed, but also gave us.

Homework, which she called deepening practice, which I absolutely loved, and it was quite involved. So with each three hour lesson, there was three hours of homework. And what I started doing, because everyone else in the course was pulling from. All kinds of open source stuff, but then also kind of taking stuff that didn't belong to [00:07:00] them.

Imagistic, which I had great concern about. I thought, what better way to actually use this tool to combine my own artwork, which is something I've always been doing, but I was painting it, and that's a bit of a slow process. So consciously knowing. I could be painting this, and I'm going to be using this as a creative tool and a deepening practice tool, and it's gonna be kind of rapid.

I just wanna stay very conscious. It turned out to be a really, , interesting foray I think for me, appropriate use of technology and keeping it as original as possible. What started to emerge the very first homework assignment, I basically created a goddess that already is living within me in my personality parts. [00:08:00] And to have that visualized was incredibly meaningful and incredibly encouraging, and the composite of how I was learning how to direct the tool. Keep it in check 'cause it really wants to tweak everything you do and to kind of reign it in , and learn how to use it and kind of create some parameters, really released me actually into being able to create a specific type of artwork that was meaningful to me on my personal journey. I then developed these into a small deck of what I call Oracle cards. And Oracle card decks have been very popular for, I don't know, about 50 years, but they're going through a resurgence and the market is just saturated with these kinds of decks. And I thought, you know, [00:09:00] it would be fun to just have it portable.

So I found a card making. Place that specializes in this ordered my first deck and out of sheer fun and sharing with my closest friends, they started pulling cards outta this deck. And were having some very deep, profound, connected, meaningful moments spiritually because of my art and my spiritual journey, which was just an added bonus.

That I didn't think was gonna happen. And so then I started thinking maybe this isn't just for me. Maybe this is a small contribution to the already very rich. Panoply of goddesses for many and very different cultures and the arc of history and time as a human species. [00:10:00] And maybe I could contribute that and distill this deck, which I don't wanna get into that production because I'm not sure I wanna share it that way.

And the market's saturated. I don't wanna get into that thing. I've always wanted to do a picture book.

Mm-hmm.

And hence the birth of the picture book based on my own personal goddess Oracle imagery.

Okay, this is just now Hold on. We gotta stop, we gotta stop for a second. 'cause I got my head around all this and I gotta have a drink 'cause you're already kerfufel ling me. Hold on a second. All right. I got, I gotta have a drink here to get my wits about me. okay. There's a deck of cards.

There's a book. okay. That's easy. In some ways, that's easy. Okay, let's step back for a second. You're working with ai, you, part of what I love by the way, is you, you intersect this experience that you see advertised and you know you're resistant to it. So that's why you, that's why you gotta do [00:11:00] it, which I really like is, is you go, oh, I'm really resistant.

Well, there must be something going on here for me. Maybe I need to push into that resistance. And so again, if you're listening in, I might just take you back to that part of the conversation. Is there something you're being resistant to that maybe you ought to surrender to? That might be just a good starting point for you in the conversation, but also that this new technology, this new idea, releases something ancient in you there's a very fascinating play for me here and it releases some thinking for you about this.

I think you use the term inner goddess, your goddess, your inner goddess, how, whatever. So let's go back to that for a second. Explain from your vantage point. What is that?

Great question. I'm still figuring a little bit of that out, but my journey with goddesses in general that have already been part of the larger story, mythological narrative and the mytho of many cultures over time [00:12:00] in human history. Is that they speak to various parts of one's personality, where things may be getting activated, but you're not quite sure how to work with it.

And sometimes we need a mentor, whether for good or ill. That is an example of the choices One has to work with that content from within. So that's kind of what happened for me is in becoming disenfranchised from my original faith and spiritual tradition that I was raised in and then, you know, trained in and worked in for a while and had some very adverse experiences, I really needed a different kind of spiritual touchstone.

, [00:13:00] To speak to the alterations within an ER and the alterations within an AR that was happening within me. It's like, okay, I'm coming to this very rich innate. CH experience that I've just come to the planet with in being a little more spiritually and soulfully geared. And I've been very hurt and betrayed and controlled, and manipulated by a system that doesn't have a lot of feminine presence in it. So I began to turn toward the goddesses. I was doing that very carefully because I also was a youngster when first wave feminism started. And as a young, impressionable girl, I didn't always feel comfortable with some of it's hard for me to find the right word, [00:14:00] almost, aggression maybe 

Could we say militant?

Yeah. Yeah. And I was reluctant to weaponize anything, you know, and I was reluctant to go toward anything that had that flavor, even as a very young child. I think I came with a lot of insight and I was kind of parsing out, okay, there's something good about this, but there's something that's making me feel unsafe.

You know, so that's a very back in the past beginning of the journey. But as I've traveled through my own life course, I have found these goddesses, some of them scary at different points in my life. And so I kind of turned away and did the throw it under the threshold till later? Kind of trick. But then as I matured and became a little bit more secure with these big picture stories, I started to delve into them and found a lot of comfort and a great deal of direction about [00:15:00] both what to do in certain scenarios and what not to do.

So there's that golden shadow and the dark shadow, you know,

and the goddesses really kind of give us that. You know those storyline possibilities as well as kind of giving us options about stereotypes, about women

Yes. And man, then that is, that is a problem. And what I love about this conversation, again, if you're listening in, this is gonna be a very different conversation. And so just do me a favor. I would strongly encourage, just hold some tension. Okay? So if this conversation creates some tension for you, maybe tension with what you believe or don't believe about your past, about your present, about your future, it doesn't matter.

Just hold some tension and, and we hold tension by just listen thoughtfully, you know, reflectively and you can do what you'd like with the conversation at the end of the day. But just hold some tension in the conversation. 'cause this is gonna be a little bit different. And as you know, if you listen into the.

[00:16:00] Podcast long enough that I like to explore lots of different things and ideas and, and this is an idea that is very foreign to me, and I love exploring it. Uh, but I got one question and I, I don't know if I wanna know the answer. So as a male, uh, which I am, , do I have an inner goddess or do only females have inner goddesses?

Well, this is where we tip over into psychotherapy a little bit. my personal view on that, which is supported by a fairly significant. Number of therapists in the field of psychotherapy. the simple answer is yes, because inherent in each human being are the capacities for what is associated to masculine.

As well as feminine, and now the range in between as we continue to [00:17:00] evolve as a species with a variety of different orientations to this topic, you know, and the nuances there, which by the way I must add, are indigenous friends understand this. So much better because it has been a non-issue for them.

They have tended to accept the variations on this theme and to make space for folks who identify that way without real issue. 

So 

in fact, isn't it from an indigenous perspective isn't the term that would often be used to be two-spirited,

right 

exactly. 

into this thing. ' about the spiritual. Yeah, we're talking about the spiritual dimension of our lives, so, okay, so first of all, I am relieved.

I'm so glad to know I have, I potentially have an inner goddess that can be released, which I, I really like. Now we're, let's get into this. Part of the discussion. We'll slide back into your story as we go, but, so now we have. In this conversation, , some of the [00:18:00] tension that people are gonna experience, which is we have, matriarchal systems and understandings.

We have patriarchal under understandings and systems. Uh, it seems like at least in our modern understandings you know, in the last several hundred thousand years, whatever we wanna go, it's tipped in most. Places tipped much more into a patriarchal understanding. Is this true historically?

Like at one point was there, more of a matriarchal understanding of, of dimension and spirituality and there's been a shift or is there always been sort of this, this sort of tussle.

The history that I've been studying over the last. Decade and a half indicates, uh, a clear and simple yes answer, but it's also a little bit more complex as all answers are. And so at a certain time in human history, there was more of a matriarchal kind of pantheon as well as having that [00:19:00] filter into daily routine and daily lived experience.

And in many of. The oldest cultures, you don't have to read very far to find that often when there was that particular preference or system, it was not to the dismissal of the male or the masculine or even something patriarchal. It was integrated and included and seen in a partnering way. And then of course, things did lean hard into patriarchy, which is most unfortunate. 'cause at that point, you know, some of the. Typical associations to what it means to express yourself. through that lens, just diminish and [00:20:00] dismiss all the other options and possibilities that would actually balance that and harmonize it.

Hmm. 

We lose something significant there, and as a result, you know, in its simplest form, can often express as You know, and even women have struggled with this. Well, we gotta toughen up because we live a 24 7 model, which is distinctly masculine, hormonally, and neurologically. And yet we miss some of the distinct neurological biochemical and hormonal advantages that we can leverage that come from a feminine orientation, which are.

Absolutely needed in tandem with that so that we have a much more harmonized approach and can choose what style or approach might be blended together here [00:21:00] to address a certain scenario or issue. You know, instead of this either or.

Mm-hmm. 

Which becomes so systematized that it actually diminishes a certain demographic of people.

Correct. Yeah. And this is again, a really interesting part of the conversation for me. Obviously, I wanna tuck back into the other arc of this conversation, but I wanted to tuck into that a little bit because I do think that when people think or hear , you talking about this idea of the goddess, it's easy to see that, oh, this is primarily a discussion of femininity or.

what we deem as feminine qualities for females. But that's why I wanted to ask the question because it, it seems to me that it, it can and ought to go deeper in our understanding, which I really love. So, so now let's, put a pin in that for a second. We'll come back to that. 'cause I love, where we're going in this conversation.

So now let's go to this side. So let's go to the Oracle card. It has this history. I think there are, probably some people who listen in right now who, [00:22:00] when you say Oracle card, they tense up and they get the heebie-jeebies and they don't know what, we're talking about or what we're talking Ouija boards or what, what are we talking about here?

They get all a little bit freaked out. so help us understand a little bit about when you use the term Oracle, , or Oracle card. Just bring us a little bit into that. And then as you've created this set, which if I understand correctly, and I've seen them, it, it bears these images that you, worked with AI to get the synthesis of your artwork, your photography, getting AI to help you be the sort of the painter of that in a very efficient, way.

Uh, which by the way, those are, they're beautiful images. They're very, very powerful. And then you have different names for these oracles or goddesses. And that's just really fascinating. But how does, when you start using this Oracle deck, you shared a little bit about experiences that you, you've had with people.

, What starts happening and your revelation in that?

[00:23:00] Well. It's fascinating because it's a first and foremost, it's an affirmation to me again that our brains are activated by imagery more than anything else,

and that that also can be used as a self-regulatory mechanism or a dysregulating mechanism depending on the visual content. The brain is actually firing on more pistons at any other time.

When it takes in an image,

when it hears words or reads them. That's not to say we shouldn't be having that. It's just to say the potency of an image. So my image come from a place that. I hope is positive because it's been birthed from my own goodwill and my own experience [00:24:00] of wanting supports and looking for insight as my life path continues to unfurl in front of me, and imagery that is supportive can create a great deal of focus as well as comfort and.

Motivation and what happens for the first few people who I shared this with? Well, I used it like a typical card deck, you know, so to define an oracle, maybe that's where we need to go here for a second. It's a wisdom tool. There are many, many tools that have been used throughout human history to find wisdom.

Some of them are more tangible and concretized like an an shook or an altar or the Oracle at Delphi in order [00:25:00] to take intentional time apart for so journeying and way making, that's when an oracle is basically for, it's to center you so that you're. Working with all four functions as young define them, which is your instinct and intuition, your bodily sensations.

There's your somatic orientation, your emotions, and your intellect, and that those are working in a harmonized fashion. And the Oracle is a tool to help you center. So that those start to work in a more harmonized way, so that for instance, your mind doesn't throw under the bus. Something that your gut is releasing to you as relevant data, you know?

So really it's a centering tool [00:26:00] for accessing your own wisdom. 

I know that there's a whole. Other aspect of, oh, it's divination. It's of something negative. It's it's evil or wicked. And to be fair, if you do a more objective reading of history and a little less conventional reading of history, you will find that those words and labels were attached to something that never had those associations.

Unfortunately often by some of the controls and efforts that came with a colonizing, patriarchal approach because when we get into wisdom, it's not as quantifiable, and if people are accessing their own wisdom, then it gets a [00:27:00] little tricky for their sovereign minds to be controlled as easily. We saw this with the creation of the printing press and the first book that was printed off of it, there was great fear about it.

'cause now what was relegated to the role and the function of the priesthood is now in the hands of the public.

Yeah, 

It might be to say, uh, this is not what that actually says.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and again, I just, this conversation very helpful. Thanks for describing some of that. So as you're talking, I'm thinking about something which is just kind of hitting me as we're talking. So, so if I understand correctly in my understanding in, you know, my cursory understanding of, some of the sacred texts, let's say, associated with Judaism or associated Christianity as Old Testament literature.

So wisdom is personified or described, or the word used is Sophia, I believe,

[00:28:00] and in the Greek, so Sophia, if we think about this word, this is the feminine name.

So wisdom tends to be, or seems, seems to be personified in historic literature and even in maybe some ancient religious text actually as feminine in nature and even in attribute.

Mm-hmm.

So that's, that, that all is quite interesting and connective to me as we talk about this this idea of coming at wisdom and how we see it. so this is really, so this oracle is about wisdom. So it's not about incantation, it's not about all these other things that people get all sort of messed up about, but it's about, Wisdom and understanding, which you said actually lies within. And so in this case, somehow, this visual image bypasses part of my brain that just doesn't get connected a lot. It gets right inside there and that visual image connects it with me. And as I, as I see it and experience it, it calls forth some wisdom or understanding in me [00:29:00] that may have been.

Resident there, but it was opaque, it was dormant, something. Somehow it wasn't coming to the surface. Am I tracking with you here?

Yeah, it resonates additional levels to the intellect and actually allows the intellect to take a little bit of a brief coffee break so that the other functions You know, cause us to be fully human and fully alive are able to be heard without being eradicated or over rationalized too soon.

And that is the power of an image. And so getting back to your other question about what happens for people when they've, you know, been, been introduced to this deck, I actually have it face down so that the backing of the cards don't show. I do a little shuffle, and then it's just it's actually the delight of being able [00:30:00] to employ this and to experience it as a centering tool and in the mystery of all that is, which is. Somewhat unique to the feminine and the divine or sacred feminine, but not exclusive to it. Before a person even reaches for the card, something in their energetic field is activated simply by being willing to focus and understand. This is a tool for centering. It will not only be fun, but it will probably be insightful and supportive. Now, I have to say that's the energy that I bring it with as well, and I'm very careful to create that environment because that is my purpose for this work that has come through me.

Yeah. And, yeah, I'll attest by the way, 'cause uh, those, you listening, [00:31:00] both Pam and I had an experience where we got a chance to draw a card and it was very powerful and very interesting. I wanna tuck into something you just said, and then I wanna go from here and we're gonna catapult it a little bit into the book.

Because that's, this is another expression of this, thing. And I'd love to know what your intention and thought around that is. Which by the way is just, it's beautiful. you know, you, you, you shared with Pam and I, it's the first sort of, version of that as it came off draft and it's amazing. but I wanna go back to, I love this idea.

You said give the intellect the coffee break. Because I wanna park there for a second, so I wanna see how this sits. So I think part of the challenge for people when we talk about giving the intellect the coffee break, some people again lose, their shit. So, so I'm wondering, for me, I'd like to describe it this way and I'd like you to tell me if you think this is a reasonable expression. So I think that the problem is when we think about. Rational mind or being rational. Most [00:32:00] people think that's the best thing. So being rational they think is apex. Okay. They also then juxtaposition because of our language. The juxtaposition of rational is irrational and nobody wants to be quote irrational, and so we tend to always tip back to, I gotta work in my rational mind.

I'd like to put something in between there for myself and I, and I do by the way, and I'd like to put it in between for my listeners potentially, and that is something that is trans rational. What I mean by that is something that transcends my rational understanding, not irrational. Trans rational. And that's the way I've sort of contextualized a lot of my life or life experience that I haven't been able to put in a neat and tidy box that works in my rational mind.

I've chosen not to put it in the irrational bucket. 'cause when I do that, I throw it away. I've put it in the [00:33:00] trans rational bucket that transcends my understanding or my rational understanding at the time. let's say you to that construct.

I like your word, um, for me. I like your word a lot. I find possibly for many personality types and people in our particular culture and our particular unique demographic. 'cause what we've got here is limited,

, That would speak to them. My word would be intra rational.

Ooh, intra. I did trans. You did Intra rational. I like it.

Because that would also be intra emotional and emotive, 

Mm-hmm. 

intra somatic

and intra intuitive. So now what we've got here is, yes, something [00:34:00] that can be transpersonal in a sense, you know it's got the transcendent function in it, and here we are dropping into young, which is about that third thing that we talked about a while ago.

This kind of suspend the judgment, wait for it, wait for it, hold the tension, and then boom. Things make sense, but not in the first available way, which we often engage in our particular culture and social construct is with our intellect 

or science, you know? But all you have to do is listen to Neil deGrasse Tyson, and you'll hear very spiritual or soul-based language from a bonafide scientist, you know?

So even he is doing this intra integrated yet. Transpersonal, transcendent, cosmic cosmological kind of view. So I like your word, but I would probably use intra [00:35:00] as well as transpersonal, which is a word that's been around for a while, which kind of takes in all the varieties of this type of experience because it is transcendent.

For Yung, it was about the transcendent function, which is basically another way of saying what is going to actually help you become fundamentally evolved into your wholeness.

Okay. You know what I wanna become, hold on here. Hey, if you're listening in, I wanna make a declaration. I wanna become fundamentally. Transcended into my wholeness. I want to count that. That's a great, that would be excellent. And by the way, you can apply this at home, at work, uh, with your family, anywhere, we just think about what this could look like.

I love it. So, okay, so we got these Oracle cards and we, and people are having this experience. They're releasing their inner wisdom, they're taking in this image, and [00:36:00] they're processing it, and they're seeing things in it. And what I imagine is. The same image that somebody flips this card and somebody flips that card and two days later somebody flips the same card, but they have a totally different revelation about what it means to them because it's releasing their inner wisdom at the time.

So it, that's kind of fascinating. I'm sure that's been fun for you watching all this happened.

I live for these moments because it proves to me again and again that in each resident, in each unique human being that I have the privilege to be with. For however long there is an absolute inner cosmos that is ordering and organizing their life path that is also intimately connected to a cosmos well beyond us, yet that we are privileged to be a part of and may never understand and be mystified by yet [00:37:00] loves and embraces us, and counts us as part of that larger family.

So if you are struggling to feel like you belong,

all you have to do is look at the stars at night. ' cause they're saying, we know you. 

Hmm. 

made of us.

You know what? that's true. And I like, actually, I like that we're all made of that thing in the cosmos. I, I love that. 

This is powerful because this, seriously, this is, this kind of conversation is craziness. I love it. It's amazing, and I love the fact that we can tuck into it.

Of course, this is UNCOMMODiFiED podcast, so we just do all, all sorts of different things and you can figure it out, listeners, or, or not. Remember though, you gotta embrace some tension and this conversation, or you're gonna, you're gonna hurt yourself. You're gonna hurt your mind, you are gonna hurt your heart, you're gonna hurt something, relax, you'll be fine.

Okay? You can always go figure it out later. But listen, listen, listen in 'cause it's interesting. So let's go to the book. So now you take all this and you create this book, and this book is beautiful. So tell me what's the intentionality there? [00:38:00] What, what do you see there? Obviously people can experience the cards and they experience them with you, and maybe if they order them from you, eventually they experience without you.

How about the book? Why does the book exist? And, and what do you see as, the, the grand intention of that for you, at least at this point?

The book exists because I did not wanna live my life without putting something beautiful in it and to share something beautiful. However, limited its scope might be, however limited the number of hands it might get into, but I did not want to come to the end of my days and feel that I had something beautiful to add to a very crazed right now world that is about many things that are truly ugly and wicked.

I didn't want to cross over. Without having co-creatively [00:39:00] contributed something beautiful, and it's already doing that. just the readers, my first readers who are helping me with the technical and the graphic, you know, just refining some of it. And you and Pam included have just sat back after they've done their job and giving me the final feedback and have said. Well, if you wanted to give us something beautiful, you've already done it.

I listen, I can, attest to that. And there was some things about the experience looking at the book. Very different than the card because the card has an image, it has nothing else on it. What I love about the book is you've taken those images and you've created that, that world and brought us into it again.

But you've brought us it into it with a little bit of narrative and, and a little bit of instruction or question at times. The text is so minimalistic. The star of that show of the page is still that [00:40:00] visual image that's that's giving you something and asking something of you at the same time.

It feels,

which,

to send. 

Yeah. It's like it on one level, it's giving me something, but it's also asking, and it's this invitation, and then the subtlety of just you know, the limited. Text to come with it, but also as you've chosen to, put that in the page, which is, in the center aligned sense, which goes back to just that deep centering that happens as you sort of enter into that experience, taking in the visual, allowing it to have this exchange.

There's an exchange going on, which is very 

powerful 

and found it very fascinating and I really, and I really love it. And obviously I, I know you personally, Lenore, so I understand your heart, your intentionality, all of the things that have come in, you know, also your commitment to excellence, your, your rigor around, the discipline of creation and art.

And even what you said earlier, you went to this course [00:41:00] and a lot of people were using images that. They frankly, you know, shouldn't have used because they they were infringing on the copyright of someone else. And of course that's, verboten should be verboten for everybody. But obviously, particularly for you with your, your art and, and visual background.

so there's this wonderful, amazing interplay between that which is most modern, and that which is most ancient coming together for you in this story of the cards and the book and all of these things. And, you you know, when we talked about this conversation, I wanted to have it with you.

And I know that you were somewhat reluctant to have it, and I can appreciate that. But I wanted to have it because I wanted to bring my, my listeners into a different way of looking at their life or thought pattern. frankly, if you're listening in, I wanna challenge you a little bit about maybe how you see human experience.

again, you can apply it wherever you want. There's something really powerful about this, and even if all you take from this maybe Oracle cards and this thing isn't your jam. Fair enough. Even if you would just take from the conversation what Lenore said about [00:42:00] how visual images speak so much more powerfully.

You know, in a world where so much about the email. And we're so much about the text, unless you got an emoji here or there, it's all about this word assault and this character assault coming at you. These, this alphabet thing. When we can get beyond that to see those visual images, which we know speak very powerfully to the brain, and again, if you're a communicator, if you're in business, I don't care what you do, the more you can paint with pictures and get people into an image of where you want them to go.

Again, we all know that this is actually how vision is created. So there's a lot of connection in this conversation, which I really love. But we're also tucking into this whole other thing about how we experience the world around us, uh, masculinity, femininity, ancient wisdom, new ideas.

What a massive amalgam of real great things in this conversation. Nar.

Well, I I started affectionately calling AI Alchemized Imagination.

Oh my 

But you get [00:43:00] to whether you're gonna use it like that.

Yeah.

To speak a little further to imagery. I also feel that right now we've become assaulted by images more than ever in human history. There's so much imagery available as content.

This is where the brain will not distinguish. It will be activated. 14 billion brain cells will be activated by one image.

Wow.

So it behooves us to choose what we decide to, to let our gaze land on, what we choose to put in our viewfinder. And I guess this whole experience has been another opportunity as a creative person who uses art making to offer imagery that may actually be. [00:44:00] Encouraging educative and empowering because that's actually why I'm here. That's my tagline for why I exist and that 

I sorted out a couple decades ago because I went through a real existential crisis and I had to figure out was I a gonna stay? B, if I was gonna stay, how would I identify what was gonna help me stay? What was the purpose? And the purpose came into this Three E's. The universe knows that, you know, yep, there's text, but the beauty of text and alphabet and words is the universe said, well, she's got a really nice part of her brain that's super organized, so let's give her three E's, you know? So.

Um,

This is a tool by which I can continue

yep.

to hopefully, [00:45:00] in some small way, bring the best of who I am and what I have to bring to fulfill those three guidelines.

To educate, encourage, and empower so that there's some someplace that's comfortable for somebody to land for a little bit. As they discover their wisdom and hopefully change their world in ways that hold heart in meaning for them, and getting back to the goddesses general, they have healed a great deal that was intentionally harmed in my life, 

unfortunately, spiritual men.

Didn't understand what they were doing and didn't really, I think, have a full appreciation for the power that being given that role [00:46:00] gives you. And instead of approaching it with humility, stepped into it, unfortunately with hubris and felt that it was something to wield to get people to line up and me in particular.

Hmm.

And so the goddesses has healed me in the feminine, but also in the masculine because some of them are real ball busters. You know, and they are frightening. Like, just take a little look at Kali and you will step back a bit and go, well, I don't wanna piss her off. You know? So there's a fierceness in the feminine and what we typically associate to the nurturing that actually has some potent leadership skills. If necessary, we'll step into a more destructive, [00:47:00] necessitated approach when there is just too much crap flying around and it's time to burn the thing to the ground so that we can build the right thing. Now that we've practiced that and realize that was a total F up.

Well, well, first of all, I, you know what, I'm, I'm all for what you just said, and I, it's so powerful and I appreciate you also sharing so vulnerably about your personal story. And again, if you're listening in, I always say you're listening for a reason. So, so Leno, let me ask you as we just sort of finish up, it's really grand conversation.

It's full of so much vitality and vibrance and taking us in all these different directions. Um. If, if somebody wanted to connect with you and, and figure out how they can experience this world that you're, created and you're creating, uh, what's the best way for them to, find these things that we're talking about, this Oracle deck, this book, what's the best way for them to find you?

So the best way right now [00:48:00] is Instagram. I have a separate account for Justice that is called Wise Woman Walking, W-A-U-L-K-I-N-G. That walking is the old, old, old spelling, which hearkens back to that which cleanses. Refines and strengthens, and that is the root word of my last name.

Wow. Powerful. So, so wise. Underscore woman. Underscore Walking with a U.

Yeah. W-A-U-L-K-I-N-G on Instagram.

every weekend, pretty much without fail, I will post one of these images. With the title of the Goddess underneath it. And then I will give some narrative writing prompts as [00:49:00] suggestions based on what I believe the goddess is inviting us to consider or contemplate.

And that's obviously optional. You, you could just look at the image and let it, you know, resonate with you however that you want it to. Or you could take the deeper dive and go with me on the journey to explore how that might move you and how that particular goddess facet may give you some insight and maybe some consolation about some steps you're taking in your current journey.

I'd highly recommend the most recent one that I posted. I think it's very relevant to some other imagery and symbols that are coming from other cultures at this time in history that have all coalesced. So there are many, many archetypal myth stories, characters, goddesses, and other features [00:50:00] that have all seemed to coalesce at the same time, which is very, very rare in.

Recorded human history, so we are living in remarkable times.

Yes, we, we are living in remarkable times. Now, here's how I wanna wrap this up. I want to go back to something that Leor said at the beginning, and I wanna make a connection here and then we're gonna put a bow on this conversation. So, Leor talked in the beginning that her journey started. To encounter this thing for her that she was going to use called ai, and she had resistance to it, and she decided to surrender to something that seemed.

That it should be resisted. I'm gonna encourage you to do the same thing. If you're still here in the conversation, you might have some fundamental resistance, potentially still to the subject matter we're talking about. Could you do me a favor? Could you just dial that resistance down and just actually just, just sit with it.

You don't have to surrender to [00:51:00] it. If that seems like too much right now, just sit with it. Allow that to percolate in your heart and your mind as you think about it, as you apply it to your life, to your business, to the world, to your community, to your family, whoever you wanna apply it to, to have a intra rational experience. For yourself and for others in a moment in time in history where it might be really important for you and I to have that.

Hmm.

Thank you for listening. I always appreciate it. Listeners, thank for listening. I always say you're listening for a reason. You'll have to decide that. Lenore, thanks for sharing space.

Really appreciate it.

You're welcome. For those who might find this a bit offputting, get teams boland's goddesses in every woman. It's been around for decades. Really good book, goddesses of Self-Care. Also a very helpful book if you want to actually read people who've studied this and have some good [00:52:00] background.

I love. it. Leor, thank you so much again. You're listening in. You're listening for a reason. Do me a favor, as you're uncorking this conversation, as you've imbibed it, then uncorking it into your life. Do me a favor, send me an email at tim@unccommodified.com or DM me and let me know what you're doing with this conversation, which is definitely most UNCOMMODiFiED.

Cheers. Have a great day.