[Replay] Clio Wood: Getting my sexual mojo back after birth

Clio Wood is a womens sexual and wellbeing champion who runs award-winning retreats designed specifically for postnatal families, not-so-new families and menopause. She helps you re-boot, get fit & rehab safely. She does all this from her beautiful home Manoir La Croix de La Jugie in France.

I’ve re-released our wonderful conversation back in 2020 as she talks candidly about her feelings running a business post birth and how it effected all areas of her life - including her marriage. It’s also a timely re-realise as she has written a book all about this experience: Get your mojo back: Sex, Pleasure and intimacy after birth - This book is a rallying call to women to reclaim their sexuality and find sexual fulfilment. You can pre-order your copy now ready for the new year!

Get your Mojo Back - sex, pleasure and Intimacy after birth (amazon)
Whole family wellbeing retreats: https://andbreathewellbeing.com/
Clio’s instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andbreathewellbeing/

Post-natal sex article in The Telegraph (sorry about the pay wall!) https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/knew-sex-giving-birth-would-different-never-expected/

I have a Newsletter! Sign up to And Another Thing - my bi-weekly newsletter for female founders like you. It’s packed full of tips and ideas on how to build ads and funnels in the fullness of your feminine wisdom.

Transcript

Speaker A: Hello. Hello and welcome to The One Thing, a podcast where I talk to fabulous females about the one thing that made them step out of their comfort zone and change their lives life for the better. Because it's only by taking brave steps that we truly grow as a person. I'm your host, mum, social media manager and general soul searcher, Vanessa Carlos. And every week, I'll be introducing a small business owner, a blogger or a creative to discuss their One Thing. Hello, my wonderful podcast listeners. Now, before I start today's episode, I really want to talk to you about my brand new newsletter that will be coming out every other Friday for the foreseeable future. Now, this week I have been talking about the six things that are working for me and my clients right now in ads and also a few things that I have learned from some amazing ad experts this week. You don't want to miss it. The links will be in my bio as to how you can sign up to get my newsletters. I'd love to see you guys on there. Now, on with the show. Hello, everyone. I'm camping out in my daughter's room today. The pitfalls of working from home with your husband. And I've just come back from a really soggy walk. We're in the middle of November. It's pretty bitter out there, but I've got a really fabulous talk coming up for you today. If you've been with me for a while, you will remember Kiowood from right back in 2020. I'm replaying our conversation today and the reason for this is that she has a wonderful new book that you can preorder right now. It is called get your mojo back. Sex, Pleasure and Intimacy after birth. It's a rallying call to women to reclaim their sexuality and find sexual fulfillment. Go to Amazon or Waterstones or wherever you get your books. I will have the links in the show notes. Of course, if you want to know a little bit more about Cleo, I will tell you again. Cleo is a woman's sexual and wellbeing champion, and she runs awardwinning retreats designed specifically for postnatal families, not so new families and perimenopausal and menopausal women. She helps you to reboot get bit and rehab safely. And I think after you've had a baby, rehab is definitely the word for it. I'm sure you'd agree she does all of this in her beautiful home in France, but I think when we spoke back in 2020, she was in her house in East London. So you will definitely feel the East London vibes in this one. I really, really hope you enjoy the conversation, especially if you haven't heard it before. So, without further ado, let me introduce Cleo to you. Hello, Cleo. Welcome to the one thing hello.

Speaker B: Hi, how are you doing?

Speaker A: I'm all good morning. Time. Ready to rumble. Ready to rumble. So we've been in lockdown now for 100 plus days.

Speaker B: I wasn't counting, but thank you for it's.

Speaker A: 100 plus days. I remember when it passed a hundred stage, a couple of maybe at the beginning of last week, and I was like, My God, that's why that's big.

Speaker B: Numbers now, isn't it? You got into three figures. That's serious stuff.

Speaker A: So I think you agree that some days are better than others, aren't they?

Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. I actually would say my daughter is in year one, so she's actually been back to school for five weeks now.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: However, this is her last week before the summer holidays, so we're going to be like going back into it. I think I've forgotten what it's like. I was just so happy that she could have time with her friends and be stimulated by someone other than me. I think it might be a bit of a shock when she comes back.

Speaker A: Yeah, I know. And you got the whole summer looming. So how have you found the kind of home school and work juggle?

Speaker B: Yeah, tricky. Not as tricky as some. We've only got one daughter, so I think things were a lot easier than I know for parents with kind of two, three, four kids. And my husband was able to work from home really easily and he's been able to be really flexible as well. So we definitely did a tag team thing where he would basically do some work for the morning and I would have our daughter for the morning and then we swap in the afternoon and then he'd actually do a bit of extra work in the evening as well. So it was quite long days for us, but it ended up working really well because once we had that routine in place, I think that was what all that mattered, really, for all of us, is like, if we knew what was happening, then it was fine.

Speaker A: Yeah. It's important for the kids as well, isn't it? To have that routine in place once they've got into the swing of it.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think we are quite prone to chaos anyway, so having a bit of a timetable was definitely a good thing because otherwise it just would have resulted in a complete nightmare.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: Like junk modeling stuff everywhere. And, you know, we're now still collecting the junk modeling stuff. Obviously, we haven't been doing junk modeling for now. The house is just basically a recycling dump. It's interesting times, let's put it that way.

Speaker A: We've had to have a two week rule with the junk modeling, so they compete it for two weeks and then it's done. And then it goes back in the recycling. Yeah. Otherwise it's just all over the house. We've got two, so yeah, it would literally be a nightmare.

Speaker B: Maybe we should instigate that as well. I feel like that might be a good thing.

Speaker A: Also. I've really had to slow down over the last few months. I don't know about you. Have you had to let go of anything you think?

Speaker B: Quite a lot of stuff. I think it's been really interesting because as you know, with and breathe, I'm quite into health and fitness, keeping on top of things, making sure I get time for myself. And that is obviously one of the first things that goes out of the window. So that's definitely been quite hard for me to adjust to that because I was always quite strict. I still am quite strict in some ways of keeping that time for myself and keeping workout time. But when you can't leave the house so often, obviously right at the beginning wasn't even going anywhere, so it's really hard to actually get that kind of baseline activity in. And even though I was doing like a workout every day or every other day, it just wasn't quite enough to kind of get me to where I wanted to be. And then because you're inside so much more trying to do home schooling or trying to work, the amount of times that you go and get a cup of tea. Plumbing and snacking food was really kind of the only pleasure, which I think is a really nice thing to be able to do and to have and to appreciate. But after three months, it was like, okay, I really would like to get my pleasure from somewhere else as well now.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: I'm really into food and it's not just eating healthy, it's like just being able to kind of get that pleasure from such simple things is really nice as well. So I'm like a kind of foodie, but I'm also into eating nicely as well. I think I found that quite hard not to be able to, you know, distract myself so much and you know, everything that we did was all around like, oh, well, that's a lovely new that restaurant started doing takeaway. Now we should really support them. So we'll get that tonight. So I think that was something that I found really hard to let go of was just that kind of routine. And yeah, the control is probably quite a strong word, but I guess control in some way. Because the only way that in our busy lives we have make time for the stuff that we need is by kind of controlling the timetable and, like, controlling your time and setting aside time for doing something for you and I think was really hard for me.

Speaker A: Do you think there's anything you'd keep, though? Because I've been speaking to a lot of ladies about this and there's a lot people are going to keep. Yes, you normal.

Speaker B: Yeah. Do you know, I actually really loved overall, I have to say, I really loved Lockdown and it was definitely nice to not have to think about, oh my God, but those people on Instagram are doing that.

Speaker A: The FOMO disappeared, right?

Speaker B: Oh my God. And I always, in theory, know that I shouldn't be jealous of other people and whatever, that doesn't mean that underneath, subconsciously, we all don't have that little bit of like, yeah, but they're doing that. Oh, and that party's happening. Why didn't I get invited? Like, I know that person better than that person, doesn't she got invited. Terrible, isn't it? So definitely that I loved and just not having that pressure of stuff that I was supposed to in Verticomm has been doing and just spending time together as a family because we run around so much trying to fulfill everything and we have meetings and my husband usually works in an office. And just being together the whole time, it was overwhelming sometimes, but it was actually a really special time to have. And I think we're all very lucky. I know that we're really lucky because we live in a house and we have a garden and not everyone has that and actually that made it so much easier. But, yeah, for us, that was really amazing. So we've scheduled in kind of like, one day. Every weekend is like a family day now.

Speaker A: That's nice.

Speaker B: And get out into the garden or go for a picnic or just something a bit more wholesome, I suppose.

Speaker A: Yeah. And a little less I don't know, simpler in a way. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Which I think is really nice.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's lovely. I'm definitely going to keep some of that and just like the regular walking and yeah, just simple things without having to spend money.

Speaker B: Because you're down in the Southwest, aren't you?

Speaker A: We're in Bristol. Yes.

Speaker B: Nice countryside from there, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah, very easy. Like, literally 20 minutes and we're somewhere really lovely, even though we're central, so it's great. Love the West Country. Now, I've been checking out your insta over the last week or so and there's been some really frank discussion. Really frank discussion about postponed sex, the elephant in the room. My goodness. And sex during menopause and perimenopause and all this kind of stuff that I'm going to get onto later because I'm completely confused about those two. And I was watching the most brilliant IGTV, where you were talking about sex post babies.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I know. And do you know what? So many of us are so ill, they're really unwilling to address that elephant in the room. And there's a real fear of it that you don't seem to have. And I find that really, really interesting about how you're just very, very open about that kind of stuff.

Speaker B: And you.

Speaker A: Tackle it head on.

Speaker B: I think that's really important. I feel like I have definitely grown. So I started Danbury's when my daughter was just born, basically, she was six months when we did our first kind of test one, and she was the inspiration behind it because of my postnatal journey traumatic birth, like postnatal depression, blah, blah, all of that. And I think at the beginning I would have talked about it with friends, with family and people close to me. But as I've had more and more contact with guests and followers and audience and the kind of ambrease community, I suppose, and people who care about the same things, the more I've realized that actually being open is something that I can do to help other people through growing and breathe and working with our team of experts and researching and reading and listening and talking to people. And from my own experience with health care professionals as well, I've become an advocate and an expert in my own right. I suppose just because of all of those different experiences, it's really important for me to articulate what other people can't necessarily and I do include other healthcare experts and professionals in that sometimes, because it's really amazing to have the knowledge and know how to treat these things. But that doesn't necessarily mean that your audience knows how to get to you. If someone is having painful sex or really struggling postnatally with their mental health, their first port of call is probably going to be their GP. Their GP might not have that much time to see them and may then direct them to not necessarily the right referrals after that. And so they get a little bit stuck because they don't quite know who to turn to. They don't know what they're asking for, they don't know what they don't know, which is the position that I was in. I was like, I've got all of these problems, but I don't know how to solve them. I didn't even know such a thing as a women's health physio existed.

Speaker A: I didn't know, to be fair.

Speaker B: And I felt like I was fairly clued up on my own health and wellbeing so can you imagine what it's like for people who aren't and who don't have access to the resources that I did? And so for me, I think it's just become really important to share my knowledge and my journey in case it can help others. And I know that it can help others because I've had that feedback and like you just said, not no one, but not that many people are speaking about things like this, especially things like sexual. Wellbeing, and it's a really big thing for a lot of people. It's really scary because it's kind of semi to boost it. We're not talking about it to our friends, especially if they haven't had babies they don't really know about it. Your NTT group, everyone's kind of slightly oneupman shipping because it is my baby's only three months and he ignored, he counts ten, all of that. And so I think it's quite hard to kind of share things under normal circumstances. I think it's quite hard to share those things with people that you know quite well.

Speaker A: Yes, it's true. Just to be able to talk to someone that doesn't know you yeah. And have those frank conversations.

Speaker B: Yeah. I kind of think of myself as a bit like a really well informed friend that you don't know that well. I'm like the TMI friend who you can just tell anything to will be like, okay, fine. Yeah, you need to go and see that person. I don't give medical advice. I always signpost and suggest things that other people can then kind of go and look up and research themselves. But those are the things that people just don't know where to start, usually. So that's where it all comes from. And I think I'm really happy to share because I think other people need to hear it.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely they do. They absolutely need to hear it. But, yeah, there's such a I don't know whether it's a British problem. Everybody's doing stuff, but no one's talking about it.

Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think it's only British, I have to say. Maybe it's like a kind of Anglo Saxon thing, because I know in the end, they have a similar problem in France. I think it probably is slightly less of an issue, but I still don't think it's covered nearly enough. I still think it would be a slightly taboo conversation to have, but they are in a slightly better position because they all get 10 hours of physiotherapy included postmates.

Speaker A: Right, okay.

Speaker B: Germany has a similar program. It's not quite the same, but you definitely get a little bit more care, kind of physically recovery and rehab. So in the course of I'm not saying that they're specifically, for example, postnatal sex or sexual well being, but in the course of those treatments and conversations, that will probably be part of that interaction.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, really and truly, if I think back to my time, and, yeah, it's probably quite well now, my youngest, nearly seven, it was literally just brushed upon by health visitors and that was it.

Speaker B: And I think that is still the case, certainly from the people that I speak to, it is supposed to be changing. The problem is that the six week postnatal check up that we all think of as like, your sign off, you and the baby, is actually previously only supposed to be for the baby. So they would kind of leave in questions about mental health and contraception and that would be it. That's certainly what my six week checkup was. And those checkups are only supposed to be ten minutes long. If you're lucky, you might get a double appointment, but most of that time is spent on the baby. The legislation has changed, or, like, the guidelines within the NHS have changed, so that mums are supposed to get a checkup also. So at the minimum, it should be a double appointment or there should be two separate appointments, one for baby, one for you, but that's still probably going to be ten minutes only. And so you just don't get to kind of delve into the stuff that you need to during that time. And for me, my GP basically asked me two questions. What contraceptions do you want to go on? And as I was going out of the door with a crime baby, I was like, oh, by the way, are you depressed? Those are those questions made me feel like **** because firstly, I was depressed and I wasn't about to have that conversation right then, given that my baby needed looking after. I literally had the door open and was pushing the buggy out of it. He obviously just seen it on his little checklist and was like, oh, ****, forgot to ask. And then the other conversation, obviously, about contraceptive just made me just feel like, all right, okay, fine. Back to normal. Yeah, sure. Of course I should be having sex. And even though I wasn't nearly in a place to, I then kind of absorbed that. He didn't say it, of course, but the very fact of him asking me about contraceptives was enough for me to think, oh, gosh, when everyone else is having sex, then I should be two. I should be getting back to normal in inverter Cobb by now. And so that just internalized. I put pressure on myself and internalized that myself. And that then obviously had a knock on effect on my whole post overall effects.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: But I know that it definitely varies as well. I have a friend who is at a GP practice in Bethel Green in London and she had a 45 minutes dedicated postnatal check up. They covered absolutely everything. But that is because that doctor has a special interest in women's well being.

Speaker A: There you go.

Speaker B: And she's taking it upon herself to do that herself. It's not mandated or anything like that. So it's hard, I think, to kind of know whether women are getting the right care that they need. And it isn't a surprise when they're not.

Speaker A: It's not, is it, really? I mean, it's nice to know that it's kind of slowly changing.

Speaker B: Yeah, hopefully. I think they've been promising it for quite a while and haven't quite got there yet. Now.

Speaker A: I've also seen so many different people talking about the menopause and the perimenopause, especially perimenopause. And I'm hitting 43 this year in a couple of months, and I'm thinking perimenopause kind of scanning through all the different things. It's almost like a little tick box of the stuff that you might have or you might not have, and you think, okay, maybe I have some of this. Yeah, maybe I'm a bit tired. Yeah, I am tired all the time. But I've got two kids, that's why. What is the difference between menopause and Perry?

Speaker B: So the menopause actually is basically like one single point when your periods stop.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So that means that in the lead up to that time, it could be a year, it could be five years, but some people could be ten years. It's when your estrian levels start to change and your periods start to become slightly less regular, or there might be a gap of one month and then you might get two quite quickly together. Or, you know, there'll be a gap, they go back to normal, then there's another gap and it starts to kind of be far less regular. And all of those that period is normally when all of the kind of symptoms start ramping up, so you kind of get your hot flushes. You might start to forget things a little bit more. Your hormones are all over the place, so you've got like, menopause rage, all of those things. The symptoms that we associate with it are usually a little bit more severe in the run up to it. And that's why hormone replacement therapy, HRT, can make us feel so much better, because it's balancing out your hormones again, they are usually synthetic hormones and it's a kind of one size fits all, so it isn't right for everyone. And there are other side effects, obviously, as well, and there are advocates for it, but there are people who wouldn't take it because really, it's just slowing down the inevitable. You have to go through those symptoms at some point. You can't keep taking HRT forever. That's the kind of difference. But it's really interesting for me because I think there are so many similarities between that life stage and the postnatal stage.

Speaker A: Yes, that's what I was thinking. It's very similar.

Speaker B: So, firstly, the gap between motherhood or new motherhood and the permanent poor is becoming smaller anyway, as a lot of people are having babies later. Women over 40 having babies for the first time is like the only growing demographic of new live birds in the UK, I believe. So that's something anyway. So you might have just had your first baby at like 40, 41, and you go into the perimenopause at like 44, 45, that's your gap is only kind of three, four years there. So you're kind of going from one big lifestage change into another big lifestage change. So that, I think, is why I find it really interesting. The other thing is, obviously your hormones are all over the place as well. You've got sleepless nights at both of those stages. You've got rage, probably some anxiety and depression. You're struggling with, like, relationship issues. You're not really sure what your body is doing in terms of, like, metabolizing food. You've got some pelvic floor issues as well, for different reasons. So it's all quite familiar.

Speaker A: It is.

Speaker B: I haven't got there yet, but the reason that I started these retreats is because my good friend Joe actually went through the menopause at 37. Goodness me, but hers was like due to genetic condition, but yes, 37. And she has an 18 month old.

Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.

Speaker B: So that transition. She obviously has known what I'm doing with Ambrie for a long time and she's really kind of helped me as it's grown and as it developed. And so we were just having this conversation around her own experience. And I just thought there are so many similarities. It makes so much sense because all of our experts are experts in that as well, in terms of personal trainers and nutritionists. And there's so many similarities between that live and even not everyone's going to have a baby, but everyone's going to go through the menopause, women identifying as women. So, yeah, it's really interesting, I think.

Speaker A: Yeah. You don't really have a gap, do you? The madness continues.

Speaker B: It seems that easy as well. Hit your stride and then you're like.

Speaker A: Oh, ****, okay, yeah, here we go. Next thing. Where are we on to next? It's just going to start getting hot and got sleep.

Speaker B: I think what's really interesting, though, is that I think when we don't know about all of this stuff, then it's really hard to kind of look at the negatives and feel let down by it. But what I would like to do in talking about this and running these amazing retreats and bringing people together and being more open is to kind of get that all out there up front, so then you can actually kind of bond with people and be really kind of open and embracing of that journey and kind of look at the amazing stuff that your body can do as well.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Which is, I think, quite hard when you're just desperately trying to find someone to help you with this pain that you don't know where it's coming from or help you stop wearing when you're running or whatever it is. There is so much to be celebrated about our bodies and that's quite hard to do if you're just worrying about all this other ****. So if you can get that other **** out of the way and hopefully it can be a much more positive experience, if that makes sense.

Speaker A: Yes, exactly. And again, going back to the elephant in the room and just being open and honest and it's such a relief, right, when you can just say it as it is.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. And do you know the amount of people who say to me, oh, my God, I thought it was just me? Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. Because actually I had this issue, like I posted the other day about in the run up, say, last week. Obviously you mentioned last week, I was talking about postmodern sex and so forth, and when I announced that I was going to do that, I had quite a few messages being like, oh my gosh, thank you. Here is this issue that I've been having. I thought I was the only one. Will you be covering? Oh, my God. One lady hadn't had sex with her husband for three years.

Speaker A: Goodness.

Speaker B: Wow, that is a long time.

Speaker A: It is a long time, yeah. For both of them as well.

Speaker B: Exactly. Another lady was like, oh, I haven't had that for a year and another lady was like, oh, I've got this pain and I don't really know where it's from. And there's all of these different things that people are dealing with and I can guarantee that you are never ever the only one, but it's really hard to find that support because it's an embarrassing topic.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So, yeah, I do think it's really important to kind of get rid of the elephant, I suppose.

Speaker A: Yes, banish the elephant. My goodness. Now we need to get onto your one thing, Leo. Well, you've got a few, haven't you? Because everybody has a few. I am going to change the name of this podcast at some point because everybody has a few, some things, I have to call it. And yes, we're going back to your life. Pre business, pre kids, and you're working in a role as a headhunter.

Speaker B: Yup.

Speaker A: Bit different, massive difference. And you decide to go down to four days a week.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Now explain to me, give me corporate, Leo. What was she like?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a funny one, isn't it? I've always been a bit of everything. I think it's because I don't like to miss out on stuff like FOMO conversation early. I've always been pretty smart, but also quite creative, but also sporty, but also musical, like, it's called. I was like drama captain as well, so I didn't know what to let go of. And the two biggest things, I guess, for me were like the kind of academic piece and the creative piece. So I ended up going off and doing an art foundation course in my gap year and then going to Cambridge languages, so I was like, okay, great, I've covered those off. And then after that I was like, right, ****, I still don't know what to do. And so one of my friends was getting into head hunting, like executive search, and so I was like, yeah, okay, I'm good at talking to people. My academics are not kind of not numerical in that way, you know, much more kind of discursive essays, arguments, that kind of thing. And so it really seemed to suit my kind of communication style and analysis of people and topics rather than numbers. So I often got into that and just did some fun creative stuff on the side, like still would make clothes or buy vintage things and upcycle furniture and things like that. But I just got to a point where I was, like, hating my job. I'd moved firms, so it's my second search firm and it was just awful. And I got into the lift one day next to a colleague and it was a Monday morning, and she just sort of sighed to herself and was like, here we go again. And I was like, oh God, no, not here we go. I could just imagine myself were there for like ten years, made partner and then what, like, still hated my job and. So I had obviously still been doing this creative stuff on the side and had renovated our flat in that time and basically kind of had a chat to my boss and was like, you know what, can I just do four days?

Speaker A: How did that go down?

Speaker B: Yeah, great, actually, which I was quite surprised by, but I think just goes to give you some idea of the lack of care in the organisation. Yeah, it was a really weird environment to work in. I just wasn't comfortable there at all. It's very, like, strictly structured. You couldn't get promoted until you've done such and such a time. And if you were working in this role, then it was very much like you could only earn up to that much. And even though my role that I had been hired into was supposed to be slightly different to everyone else on my level and so the whole thing was all a bit strange. But, yeah, my boss was a bit of a, I guess, champion me in that sense and was like, yeah, that's fine. So it took that day off a week. I don't think in hindsight that I should have done it because I know never to work a four day week because you always end up doing five days and only getting paid for four.

Speaker A: Days and squeezing it in. Right. You squeeze in all the hours.

Speaker B: That's exactly it. So that was stupid in hindsight, but I didn't know that at the time. I think what I would do now, why always say to people is that actually you should negotiate flexible working hours or like pressed hours so that you can work four days. You can work your full week, but you do in four days and then you still get paid for five days. Or you negotiate to work one day from home or two days from home, and then at least you can break up your day and do whatever it is your side hustle within those other hours, but you're still doing your five day week role and getting paid for it part time. I think you need to go three days or less because otherwise people just go, oh, she's here most of the time. She must be like, working a normal role still. So I think that's really hard. Anyway, so, yes, I went after four days and just decided that I really enjoyed it was still, like, not really loving the day job anyway. So then around the redundancies came up and I was like, excellent, I will take that payout, thank you, and basically use that to kind of start doing the creative stuff a little bit more consistently. And I kind of created this upcycling and interior design label. I did a few kind of residential jobs and corporate jobs and it was all the idea was that it was a kind of sustainable heart to it as well. So using your existing things, improving and upcycling rather than just going to a wholesaler and buying everything from scratch and so on. That was that kind of transition. Again, very different to head hunting, but also very different to what I'm doing now as well.

Speaker A: Yes, exactly. And the fear was there the whole way, you think?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Fear of going wrong?

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I don't think so. The interior design and upsizing, all of that was fine. Looking back on it, I don't think I was ever really good enough to make it. I think I was pretty good. But there is so much creativity out there. There are so many people doing like, amazing and really quite similar things that you really have to stand out if you're going to make a good go of it. And I just don't think I had that. I think obviously I can renovate my own house, I can do interiors for friends and stuff like that, but I don't think I was good enough to really make a career of it. And so that was an interesting learning as well because I think it took me some time to realize that. But one of the other one things when I had so we then bought a property in France that would be my kind of canvas for all of this interior design and not financing work, which it was. It looks brilliant. But then I had a baby and was like, what the ****? This is really hard and I don't know what I'm doing. I feel like ****. I don't know how to feel better. I need to be supported and to kind of recover and rest and rehab. But I don't want to leave my baby. I want to do this in an environment where a family is welcome, things like that. So that's when I came up with the idea of the postnational retreats and because we had our place in France, that was the kind of obvious place to start doing it and do some test ones and see how it went. And it's all gone from there, really. So I guess that decision from something that I was really desperately in need of was another turning point. And it didn't feel like so much of a decision as a kind of natural progression. But I guess it was a big decision then to when I finally was like, okay, no more upcycling, no more interior design. At one point, I was like, okay, trying to run this house, trying to run these new retrieves, trying to do people's interior design projects.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. There's going to be a huge amount of overwhelm, surely.

Speaker B: Yeah, it was ridiculous, but I still felt, this is terrible. I get really terrible guilt. I have massive inner critic and fear of failure, and I feel super guilty when I feel like I'm letting other people down.

Speaker A: You name your inner critic. No, you need to name them on it and you burnt it. Right, okay. So it's already burnt.

Speaker B: Interesting exercise, but it still comes back. I mean, I talked to myself, is.

Speaker A: It a lady or a man? Mine is a man. Really? Yeah, mine's a man. Mine is a very specific man as well. It's hilarious.

Speaker B: As in a specific person that you know.

Speaker A: No, he's a very loud Greek man. His name is Spiros.

Speaker B: Right, nice.

Speaker A: Yeah, he's very loud and very aggressive. Hilarious.

Speaker B: I think my inner critic is almost like a perfect version of me, or what in my head, standing there being like, what the **** you doing?

Speaker A: Oh, you need to name her and then you can just say, thanks. Thanks, Barbara. I think I saw my good friend Helen Her in a kitkah. Barbara yeah. And that is always getting in the way.

Speaker B: I like that. All right, I'll work on that.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, you need to work on a name and come back to me on that one. Postcard, please. Cleo is an acrylic name.

Speaker B: Yeah, I might put that on Instagram. Right, guys, what are we going to call her? Gosh, I can't remember what I was saying about.

Speaker A: We are talking about you're in France. We're in France. We're in laughs is that correct?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: I just had a quick look on the website. I'm completely in love. And you've just started and breathe. Do you think, in a way, and breathe was a bit of therapy for you when you were having such a hard time?

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. It's interesting, though, because I think I thought it would be super helpful, and it was. However, now, having gone on to build and breathe and do so many retreats and help lots of other people, I haven't actually experienced a retreat properly for myself. Right, that makes sense, because we did the test one for friends and family, which I kind of took part in, but obviously I was still kind of thinking about it from, like, how can we make this work? That kind of perspective, and making notes and taking pictures. So I've never actually experienced one for myself, which I think I assumed that I would be able to. Yeah. So it took me, then, quite a while to build up my own kind of support outside of that, to find the right therapist to work on my fitness and nutrition, to find a woman's health physio, to get all of this stuff kind of dealt with and answered in a way that's a bit of a shame. I just need to get it to a place where it can happen without.

Speaker A: Me and then get back and enjoy it yourself. Right.

Speaker B: I'm not sure I ever will, though, because even if I go on it and it's not and I'm not working, I'll still be thinking about or maybe you should have done that.

Speaker A: You'll see things, won't you?

Speaker B: Take the time. Yeah.

Speaker A: Have you had any mentors along the way? Along the way in your life that really stuck out for you.

Speaker B: I think I have a lot of different people that I speak to. I don't have one particular mentor. I've tried to have them at times, but maybe it hasn't worked out or they've been too busy or they weren't quite the right field. But I've had a lot of different influences. Like Joe, my friend who went through the menopause, my inspirational Joe, that one she's been really good for chatting to along the way because she has run her own businesses and that was how I met her. And she was initially through like a kind of women in business group. Okay, so she was really great and has morphed into a friend, but with that kind of business head on as well, which has been really nice. And then getting to know people within your space who are, you know I try to think of people as colleagues and because there's not really that many people doing what I'm doing anyway so there's lots of people with kind of complementary audiences and experiences of that I know and we kind of meet up from time to time. Obviously not recently, but kind of once or twice a year just have a quick coffee and see how we can help each other and stuff like that. And that's really nice. But I do find it very hard working essentially by myself. And Breathe is an amazing brand and I think we look really kind of big and polished and it's obviously an amazing experience in person, but I think people assume that it's massive and that we've got 1020 people working for us when in reality it's me. But I do have a big team.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: They're all freelance and so they work on an ad hoc basis on a day to day basis in the office, it's me and my sister who I have like a couple of mornings a week and she's obviously working remotely as well. So she does all of the kind of bookkeeping like clear, you need to pay this or you need to chase up that person for this bill or whatever.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So yeah, so I do find that really hard. And I think it's really interesting as I talked to my husband about this a lot, because given that everyone's been working from home so much more during lockdown, I do think there are going to be a lot of mental health issues that people will come out of lockdown with just because they don't get as much interaction as they might need. And it's very easy to doubt yourself when you're on your own and you don't celebrate the wind. As people, as humans, we naturally focus on the negative and so that is what you will do when you're on your own. And so I think that's really it'll be really interesting to see how people kind of cope coming out of this, I think.

Speaker A: Yeah. Whether they're just all desperate for a hug.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think everyone's desperate for a hug.

Speaker A: Everyone's desperate for a hug.

Speaker B: That annoying me to walk to the coffee machine that everyone used to hate.

Speaker A: Yes, I can see you. It's no problem at all. Would you say generally? Because I always think people are either one of three things a head, a heart or a gut person. Usually in your business.

Speaker B: Yeah, gut.

Speaker A: Gut. Good one.

Speaker B: It's not I don't think well, it's interesting because my husband is a head person very much ahead. And he's like so I'll be like, oh, I had this really good idea. And he's like, put it in a spreadsheet. And I don't know whether I should do this or this. He's like, well, have you done the analysis? I'm like, **** you with the analysis. And to be fair, once we have done so, quite often he'll help me with things like this. We don't work together because we can't, because we end up fighting. But sometimes if he's got a free moment and I'm like, oh, do you think you could, like, work this out for me? He'll do it because he ******* loves the spreadsheet. But more often than not, I'll be like, I think it's this. And you'll be like comes back 2 hours later. Yeah, I think it's that too. So we come at it from very different ways. But usually my gut comes up with the same response that he does, which I think is fine.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. But it's good to have a head person, right? Because if you're a heart or a gut person, if you have another gut person, you're all over the place. Surely just having someone going to put it in a spreadsheet.

Speaker B: Yeah. The problem is I would absolutely love a co founder or someone, a business partner to work with me. But I've left it too late to have a co founder now, kind of five, six years in or whatever it is. And it's really hard to find someone who is in the right position, who has the right set of complementary skills, who want to work in this space, who has the same mission. So that's always been a really hard one for me because I do think it would be much better if I had a little partner in crime, essentially. Caroline, who is our PG, is amazing and has been with us for five years, since right, since beginning. But she is very much a PT and wants to keep her in business and doesn't want to do this full time. And that's completely understandable. And she's also not a head person either. There are kind of possibilities, but it's just about finding the right person, I think. I think I've come to terms with the fact that it probably won't happen, but it's envisaging how angry looks without that and kind of making sure my ambition fits with what I can actually physically do and how can I help people but not burn out and overwhelm myself at the same time? Because obviously working with people is amazing. But it's also quite stressful, just even from the logistics point of view of making sure that everyone has everything that they need, that you've remembered everyone's dietary requirements, that you have food. That new speaker that was supposed to arrive didn't arrive. Okay, but did you know it's all of those little things doing too many of them, which we did, we tried. I definitely have gone through various different business plans and strategic ideas over the past five years and one of them was to kind of expand and do lots and lots of retreats and it was too much. It's been really interesting experimenting with these different models, I think.

Speaker A: Yeah, look out for a hard person, even, or a head. Well, the head is probably the way forward though, if you want to get organized, surely. Are you one for winging it then? Do you like to win it? Yeah.

Speaker B: I kind of assume that everything will all turn out okay.

Speaker A: Yes, I'm a bit like you.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's really interesting, I think that I trust myself enough to think that it's going to be okay and have enough confidence in myself and my experts and my concept to think that things are going to be okay. And I'm very rarely proved wrong and it's usually when I'm not actually there, like when the amount of retreats that we do, I can't necessarily be on all of them. Up until last year, obviously, this year has been very quiet. And so it's usually when I'm not there to manage it that things go a little bit awry. And I guess that's just because that's where my personality is. Like, I would sort it out because I know that it's going to be okay, whereas someone else wouldn't necessarily know that.

Speaker A: Yeah, so you're no good at asking for help either then? God, we're so similar. Cleo. My God, we could never work together, we'd be a nightmare. I'd be terrible at asking for help. Yeah, it's a real issue of mine and I think it's probably quite difficult for business owners as well, especially when it's your baby, to just say, oh, it's just easier to do it myself.

Speaker B: Well, just even on a more practical level, it's like, okay, well, that's fine, but who am I going to pay? Because I'm going to need cash to get something out of it. That's really hard as well, just even on a practical level to be able to do that. So then you get into a habit of just doing it yourself because it's easier, because it's all in your head, it's really hard to describe to someone else anyway and to kind of brief them properly, then it goes wrong because you haven't been able to explain it to them properly and then you don't trust them. So it's just a big bishop stuff.

Speaker A: So we've been talking loads about embraced, but for the uninitiated. Let's explain what it's all about.

Speaker B: So and Breathe is a family well being company. We focus on fitness retreats or pre and postnatal parents and perimenopause. All the peas, all the keys. Yeah. And the focus is very different to a normal fitness retreat or a kind of boot camp type vibe. We're not going to get you up at 530 in the morning and shout at you to do 30, thank the Lord. Yeah, absolutely. The focus is on fitness, yes. But it's functional fitness, it's rehabilitation, it's completely tailored to everyone that we have on the retreats as well. So everyone gets a onetoone session at the beginning of the week and all of that is taken into account into the rest of the week in terms of the planning of the fitness classes and so on. It's about food, but it's healthy and delicious and it's easy to recreate, so it should be quite inspirational as well. So on a lot of fitness retreats, you basically go and you eat near enough nothing for the week and it's like a stone, but, you know, it's just kind of not really worth it. And so what I wanted it to be was really about a kind of sustainable way of being healthy in a realistic way. So we have wine. You don't get wine on normal Fins retreats. You don't have to drink it, but we include wine with dinner and I think that's a really you've got to think that this is achievable and that knowing that eating healthy is going to make you feel amazing as well. Not just about kind of losing fat or water weight or anything like that, which, you know, I hate talking about bouncing back postnatally as well as one of my most hated terms because it isn't about bouncing back, you never went anywhere, is still amazing and, you know, it's gone through a lot. So it's about kind of nurturing that and feeling amazing and growing forwards rather than bouncing back. And the last strand, so we have fitness food and then the last round is feel more illiterate because it's about where you are in your head as well. It's about time. Posting to more help if you need it. It's about honesty, it's about new friends, everyone gets a really amazing massage and a date night if you're on a postnational retreat.

Speaker A: Oh my God, this sounds gorgeous.

Speaker B: And you get to spend time by yourself, but also with your new family and the identity as well. On the Menopause retreats, it's about kind of bonding with people who are going through exactly the same experience, but you might not be able to talk about it properly before. And it's all about that kind of nonjudgmental supportive environment. Someone with even one of our guests has said that I hold the space really well so that I and the team hold the space for them to just kind of be and that's I think a really nice way of putting it, because you kind of take what you need from the week and everything is optional. Obviously, if you want to get the most out of the week, then probably it's going to be best if you do go to most of the fitness classes and take part fully in the program. We went to America once and they kept calling it the program and I was like, okay, cool, we've got the program. That's really important, though, Jimmy, is to have the kind of physical and the mental well being and obviously sexual well being part of that as well. So for me, it's about much more than just fitting into your size ten jeans or whatever. It's about feeling amazing in yourself and that is not just about losing weight, it's about so much more than that. So, yeah, so that's embrace in France and Morocco and we do do them in the UK. So we've got 2021 dates coming up soon. Our next two retreats are in September in France and we are taking bookings. So feel free to hang up the website and breathe well Being.com if you would like to, we'd love to have you along.

Speaker A: Fantastic. I did see one in Portugal as well. Is there a new tree?

Speaker B: Yeah, we did one in Portugal in March and obviously that was literally right before everything kicked off. So a bit of an odd time, but hopefully we will be going back there at some point as well. I don't know if you've heard of Martinez. It's an amazing clue.

Speaker A: I have been on the website for three months now, just literally ******* over the Martineau in Portugal. I know, I think I got told about it by a friend of mine and it was literally just the dream, wasn't it, really? For three months. Whether that's going to become a reality this year, I doubt, but yeah, it's an amazing place.

Speaker B: Yeah. Now it is interesting because obviously the last three months have been really quiet as well, booking, but I've really started to get over the last couple of weeks, I've started to get lots more inquiries, which is really amazing. And September Retreats will be able to.

Speaker A: Go ahead and have a yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker B: I think everybody's desperate for a retreat. Please look after me, just for anything.

Speaker A: Do you know what? All I would like is for someone to serve me and for me not to do any washing up afterwards. That's all I need.

Speaker B: And that is what we give you on a retreat, isn't it? Really interesting because I think people, when they come on a retreat, they're like, I didn't expect that to be one of the most amazing things. It's just, you know that you don't have to do any cooking, you don't have to do any clearing up, just turn up to the table, turn up, make decisions about what you're going to eat as well.

Speaker A: It's all there.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think that is a really positive thing. My goodness.

Speaker A: And you also have a Bursary fund as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, so I actually launched that last year, but just have never had the opportunity to promote it properly. But I would love it to become something, and it will take time to grow it to become something that we can do a little bit more regularly and offer, say, one space a year to a lower income family. It was something that became a bit more of a conversation topic with all of the Black Lives matters.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: It isn't directed solely towards people of color, but if you look at the statistics, lower income families are by far and away most likely to be black or people of color. So it's hopefully something that we can promote more. You can donate to it okay. And give to it through the website, and then we will match anything in order to try and fund a place. It does cost us a lot of money. It's £2000 for us to host a family, and that's something I'm more than willing to do because I think it's a really amazing thing to be able to help people from all different backgrounds. And so if people would like to help us do that and to kind of help and gift to the funds, that would be amazing.

Speaker A: Yeah, that'd be incredible. Well, there'll be a link in the podcast notes so everyone can head along there and check out how it all works. Also, after listening to all of this wonderful stuff, if we sign up to the mailing list, is it true? We get 15% off?

Speaker B: Is it true? Can it be? I believe yes, absolutely. I would love you to. If you sign up for the main list, it's 15% off, and that would just kind of happen automatically. I deal with all of the inquiries personally anyway, so I can kind of cross reference if you're on there, and then we can go from there.

Speaker A: Okay. The links on there, too, people. The links on there too. Clear. Would you believe we got to the end? This is bonkers. Absolutely bonkers. Now, I always ask this one question at the end of everything, you've achieved so much, but is there one thing left that you really want to achieve, but you've just got to overcome your fear of it?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think I had a big think about this when you posed that question to me originally, and I almost think it's that it's actually the failure itself, the fear of failure. I need to get over my fear of fear of failure because we talked a lot earlier about my inner critic and things like that, and it's just all tied up with this whole idea that I have to be perfect and I can't fail. And I think that causes me to kind of get stuck in a bit of erupt and not do stuff and not change things and not alter and Tweak, because I'm like, well, it's kind of working now, and if I change it, it might get worse. And actually, I think I need to think about it more. Like, if I change it, it might get better. Just so obvious. But you kind of think, well, I think it's just so ingrained that failure is a possibility that I don't do it. So that's my yeah, but then what's.

Speaker A: So bad about failure? I know.

Speaker B: Well, that's it, isn't it? What the hell's going to happen? Like, at the end of the day, if it doesn't work, change it back. But I think I'm just worried in my head. I just worry about the judgment of others, which I think is my own judgment. Other people.

Speaker A: Yeah, so many people. This is a common thing, people worrying about what other people think of them. And really, they're all getting on with their own ****, honestly.

Speaker B: And I think we're just so much more in front of it. You know, social media is so big now. We always like, that's why it's worse, I think, now because we're confronted with it, and we assume that everyone else is going great guns and doing brilliant, and so that if you fail, like, oh, my God, but they're doing so well. But actually there's all this stuff behind the scenes so much. Yeah. And I know all of this. I just don't live by it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you know what? The more open we are and the more we bring out that elephant in the room and the more we talk about our failings and what's gone wrong, maybe it'll just get bit better.

Speaker B: Yeah, I hope so. Things cross, too.

Speaker A: Yeah. Right. You get on with naming you're in a critic.

Speaker B: All right, I'll get back to you.

Speaker A: It's been wonderful to talk to you, my darling.

Speaker B: So lovely to talk to you. Thanks, Vanessa.

Speaker A: It's a pleasure. You take care now. Bye bye. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to this cozy Tween age bedroom. I really, really hope you enjoyed that conversation with Cleo. I certainly did. If you would like to buy her book, obviously it's all in the show notes. Of course, we didn't really speak about that in the conversation, but you kind of get the gist of where she's coming from. There will be some links also about the retreats that she organizes her instagram, and also a conversation that she had with The Telegraph, all about postnatal sex. There is a payball on that. The Telegraph. I'm so sorry about that. But I'm sure you'll find all those really, really useful. Now on to next week. I'm going to do a bite size episode. I have no idea what I'm going to do it on yet. We probably would have come out of the Black Friday malaise. I'm right in the middle of it at the moment, hence why I have got a very fuzzy hurt. But. What I have been doing is an awful lot of brand new training. So I'm sure by next week I'm going to have lots and lots of stuff to talk to you all about meta ads and how they can help your business. So without further ado, I'll say that again, shall I? I will see you all next week. Goodbye for now. Thank you so much for listening to that one thing. And please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe. It really helps to get my little podcast into the universe and I'll forever grateful.