Unmasking the Zodiac Killer

The Zodiac killer was our modern day Jack the Ripper. Both maintained a small circle in which they chose to kill, and both only have a very small agreed upon number of victims (JTR has 5 Zodiac has 5 fatalities and 2 seriously injured). The Zodiac himself claimed 37 plus victims; and how he communicated with the investigators and the newspapers of the late 1960s/early 70s was what really set the Zodiac apart from all of the other usual slice and dice killers of his day; the cryptograms; the harassing phone calls and letters. 
And worst of all, the Zodiac killer was never caught.
Join Debbie Q and the right shoe on this rabbit hole journey in and around the victims, the ways, and the ultimate person who I think the Zodiac Killer to be, this case is as complex as it is bemusing, it is truly an odd tale of a killer who whisked through the San Francisco area, was getting bolder with each subsequent killing, and then suddenly stopped. 
What happened to him? And who was he? 

Chapters

• 0:00 beginning music/red red shoes/the right shoe
• 4:54 happy new year
• 9:50 breaking down the zodiac - beginning
• 16:44 zodiac shoots victims sitting in a car
• 25:56 zodiac was demanding that they print his cipher on the front page of every paper
• 34:37 kids were stabbed at Lake Berryessa
• 45:35 movie - the zodiac
• 56:40 similarities between zodiac and jack the ripper
• 1:07:13 richard marshall as a zodiac suspect
• 1:14:30 manson murders had eclipsed zodiac in the 60s
• 1:21:14 cherry jo bates
• 1:24:32 future cases/jason sweeney,s killer released
• 1:24:54 the end

Transcript

Unknown: 0:27

Hello, this is Debbie Q and you're listening to the right show. The right shoe is a podcast about all things strange and unusual. Especially when it references a death. I just got a new new road caster and there was something wrong with the headphone jack Sweetwater was awesome and getting me a new one lickety split. I literally got it the day after, and it was New Year's Eve. So is that a good news when he caught a good New Year's Omen? I hope so. Now, this is kind of a one tough case. I you know, what happened was, I had cases lined up and then the Zodiac z 340 was cracked. It didn't say anything. It didn't reveal the guy's name. It didn't, you know, say what it was supposed to say. But it did. It was cracked. I saw it Hey, in my stupidity. I'll do the Zodiac killer. And then I remembered why I never ever take on serial killers. This case. I you know, in all my years, for some reason, I never had gotten into the Zodiac. I don't know why I didn't know much about it. And in fact, when I was younger, in the 90s, I was living in New York. And they there was the New York Zodiac Killer. And I assume that the original Zodiac was caught also, I just had never got into it. So when the newer zodiac, there was a guy Heriberto zeta. And he was, well he was going from when he was killing people between 1990 and 1993. He was actually starting to follow the wheel of the zodiac. I do remember that. And I remember people thinking like, Oh, my God, this guy's got this magic way. He's going about the stars. He's this or an astrology master. I remember. And then when they caught him in 96, he said, I I really just, I was just killing people I really did not have and I was just lucky. So I have to say, in some aspects with this zodiac, the original Zodiac. It's truly a rabbit hole. The more you get into it, the more you feel like you're going crazy. I mean, there is such as this guy was either a genius. Or he was just lucky. Or, you know, I went back and forth thinking, is there two of them? Was there more than one? But I mean, the thing is, you have investigators that have investigated this case, ad nauseum. And they determined that there was five cases, just like jack the Ripper, that are agreed upon, that they were the work of one person. So I tend to respect investigators. And I feel that those who came before me were, were authentic in their knowledge of what they were looking at. And they it was one person for these five, for the five that were yes, these are the zodiacs, there are a few that really are so similar. I can't imagine that they're not the Zodiac. And especially, especially the one because there's just no two of them have to be the Zodiac. And then you get your crackpots. But it's all common. I hope I can do this justice. For the right to business. I would like to say Happy New Year 2021 Bring it on. Let's hope that it's better than 2020 I actually didn't have a bad day. 2020 but, I mean, in general, it was pretty sad to see, you know, even just schoolchildren who really wanted to finish out their school year never got the opportunity. People that are in sports never got to do their sporting events, people that proms, weddings, children got all screwed up. That sucks. So for that, I have to say, you know, what can you do? It sucks. It really does. I sympathize with anybody who had something big that they wanted to do and did not get to do it. Because it's 2020 and COVID. And all that myself. I'm at a point where I just started the podcast and it really was kind of the right timing because people seem to be home and listening. You know, but I have to say at the same time it does get boring just sitting in your house all the time. No matter what you're doing. So the right shoe business. The right shoe is a PI here's all things strange and unusual especially when it references a death. I the right shoe, podcast calm. I really do go to Instagram, the most shop all looked at 44 on Twitter, I'm bookshop worm one. But you can mostly get me through my email on the right shoe podcast comm where there's pictures to correlate with each and every episode. I feel so Alice or it's because I did a couple in a row. And then a Christmas one, which was just saying Merry Christmas and and I feel so oh my god, I'm almost nervous. Because I have all these notes. And I'm I'm frantic because this case is a little bit overwhelming. I am not been doing this for years on end. Like some people, I really am amazed at what people have gone through. And it is like jack the Ripper. There's five distinct cases that belong to this one guy that we I hope and pray because it was in the late 60s. So you figure there's got to be still some, you know, I think the guys probably did. But there's got to be something to crack it possibly still. And you know that there's got to be still victims families alive. I mean, it wasn't that long ago, some of the people were in their 20s. That was 50 years ago. So there they would be in their 70s now, all that life loss all those years. And then you think of his victims and and how, you know, they were all good kids. You know, it's it's heartbreaking. It really is. So to find this guy, and there's websites devoted to it. It is amazing. I did go through a few to research this. I of course read the masterful Zodiac by Robert gray Smith, who the 2007 film Zodiac was based on which if you haven't seen, you should see it. It's with Jake Gyllenhaal and Robert Downey Jr. They're excellent in their roles. Robert gray Smith became completely obsessed. It was funny, I saw an interview and he said I didn't think I was obsessed until I saw this movie. You know, it's it's a, it's quite, I can see how he became obsessed. It's fascinating. I want to do shout outs, my friends on Instagram, grisly books, and true crime, boons. They are now on Patreon. So I'd love to say good luck to them. And I'm so glad. Also, there's a web there's a little there's a site on Instagram that I have to give a shout out to. I do enjoy their work. It's It's really good. It's called my little slice of hell. And he has a lot of really funny means little videos. I think it's something if you're on Instagram, take a look at the it's it's really good. And if you like the right shoe, like subscribe and leave a five star review. I think that takes care of all the business. And now let's get started. This case is a doozy. a doozy and a half to get this case out. I'm going to have to break it down. I cannot possibly do all that the guy claim that he did or there was a lot of cases It could have been the Zodiac. There's five confirmed dead and two injured. And then there are two cases that I really do believe are part of the zodiac. But there's five confirmed victims dead and two were injured. So that's how I can put it. Those are the ones we're going to be going over. Now the Zodiac was unusual in not only did he kill these people, he tormented law enforcement, he tormented the newspapers. He really did. He must have. He wasn't like a dumb guy. I mean, he never was caught. He wrote the ciphers that they compare one, the Z 340. They said that I mean, they had FBI and NSA, everybody looking at it and trying to decipher it, and they couldn't. They could not figure out what, for years and years, the initial one, there was a school teacher last name harden, who had figured out with him and his wife, but Betty had figured out the first code that took you know, he said he was about to give up, but his wife just refused. And that took a while. And then, you know, he this Zodiac Killer just would want with these constant letters and constant ciphers, and there was many of them. And there were some that were really bizarre how it all started, was there was a couple David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen. And they were going on they were two good kids, and they were going on their first date together. It was December 20 1968, five days before Christmas. They were a cute couple. And they were both good solid kids. Although this is where I start to even think of Who could it be because Betty Lou had told her sister melody that she felt that a boy at school had been spying on her. And one time Mrs. Jensen, her mother had said the gate was open to the side of the house. So she was you know, they were leery of this one boy, although after this happened, they did go to that boy, and he had this rock solid alibi. But it still made me think maybe there was another boy. And because of certain things that were to come so that night, they promised to be home by 11 o'clock. They said they were going to go to this to this Christmas concert. And they have to where they're going to go to a party. And instead of going to the concert, the two went to visit another student named Sharon. And at nine o'clock Sharon said that she walked them to their car. Now from investigators going through this they said that I guess instead of going to the party they were supposed to go to they went to Lake Hermon road, which was a few miles outside of Vallejo city limits through with testimony and witnesses and interviews at 930 and unusual incident. And this is from the book Zodiac. Because I had to write this down It was so bizarre to me before something happened to this poor couple of boys and his date were parked in the girls sports car and they saw a blue valiant that's the it was close to a Blue Valley and they're not sure if it was coming up the road. They saw the white backup lights come on. Then the car started backing up towards them with excruciating slowness. such men as such this this like they said it It felt so wrong the way he was doing it. I you can tell when someone's messing with you. Like if you're in a car and someone's backing up and they're doing it so excruciatingly slow like as to get your attention that this guy took off. He put the car into high gear and sped off. The several people had seen Betty Lou and David sitting in the scene. You know, they it's I think they were probably making out or whatever. But then they came up the next time raccoon hunters did say they saw a man wearing glasses with a windbreaker on he was also up there. But they didn't think nothing of it. The thing that freaks me out when Mrs. Now what happened was, I guess they didn't come home. You know, it's 11 o'clock and they were very good kids. So she went up to where she had seen David parked, and when she turned the corner, she thought that the David had fallen out of the car. And then she saw Betty Lou now I said pictures on the internet Of course, as always pictures, the site of Petey Lou Jensen is so horrific. I mean, she is literally facedown in this massive pool of blood. It is a very eerie picture. I did not realize that even these pictures are very creepy. So this guy when they backtrack to find out what had happened, this guy had come up, and this is what I don't understand. He had apparently fired a bullet behind them to get them to go out of the car. But I, I asked homicide this I said why did they not take off? Why did they run out of the car, which is what they did. And when they ran out of the car, he shot them he shot them repeatedly. Yes, it was in the dark. And they said with incredible marksmanship, a moving target and a almost door country road. He got both of them. But when he was to taunt the papers and everything he said that he had like this little pencil type scope that this little apparatus that he had made like a flashlight, the little pencil flashlight taped to the scope of the gun. So whatever. He pointed it at it with hit I mean, can you imagine in the middle of the night in the dark and night and that comes up to you? I mean, did they just get so scared that they ran out of the car and I just can't imagine doing that to anybody. I Oh my god, it's so horrific. So the police cruisers come up they the this in Switzer was on the right front door was wide open, and the other three doors and the tailgate was locked. They found 22 casings on the front of the floor. There was no signs of a struggle or visible tire tracks. I just you know so this happens. So this happens one cold winter's night. And then the next incident is when a really gets freaky. Now this involves Darlene Ferran and Mike and make you and Mike McHugh with later gout, a guy named authorly. Allen as the person who did this to them that night because he was to survive this attack. Darlene has quite the backstory now. Darlene was was a party girl, she was all she was just a fun girl. And she was married twice like she had been married to this guy Jim and Jim freaked her out and he sent her things in the mail and and they and people said that like he they just did not. They felt uneasy with him. And even oddly worse is when they went to the Virgin Islands on their honeymoon. Darlene had seen a murder. This is what she claimed her sister while they were in the Virgin Islands, and she was very spooked after that. I mean, obviously, but she broke up with Jim she was married to another guy. She still like hung out with guys, but she wasn't they said clearly. She was not like, Oh, she wasn't a run around. Like she was just a fun party girl. It's just the way she was. There was a they had a party and there was like a stocky guy. And and Linda her sister said that was the one guy that she didn't know at the party and she never did know who he was, but he was stalking which is how the Zodiac is always described overweight. 538 inches tall. And Darlene seemed very nervous that night, Linda, don't go near him. Just don't talk to him. Well, who is he just don't talk to him. That's how it was when she just thought okay, you know, so she stayed away from her sister said she remembered seeing this man leave a package at their house. I guess she was talking to them. And Darlene said, you know, Pam, I'm going to have to ask you to stop talk at my parties. If you don't stop talking to that guy. He was a very well dressed guy with glasses. He had dark hair. For some reason. I think Darlene met this man in the Virgin Islands. She mentioned drugs in connection with this guy. And people were constantly going to the bathroom. She was never allowed back there. So you know who can you know figure that one out for yourselves? She just doesn't remember his name. So the one night it was I guess it Yeah, it was July 4 1969. She was going to go out with this guy Mark Mike McHugh. Now Darlene seem to have a lot of guys like jealous of her wanting to go out with her. I don't know if Mike Mickey's intentions at the time or anything different but apparently he was supposed to be just a friend. They were going to go See fireworks at night, Mike immediately thought they're being followed. I don't want to mention the movie too much because it just it visually it helps in the movie this is represented as the first killing and and you see that she is obviously nervous. The guy in the passenger car is trying to, you know, say who is that and it does appear that she knows who it is. And it is even freakier about what happens next. Now this guy gets out of the car. He gets a blinding flashlight, which Mike later said was like a floating lantern. He thought it was a flash. He thought it was a policeman at first because of the he thought it was a like a policeman's flashlight. But it turned out to be one of those floating lanterns, like you see on boats, and the guy goes to the passenger side of the car and the windows down, and he just starts shooting. And then he receipts from the car. And then he goes back and he continues to shoot. And Mike goes to grab the passenger handles side door, and there's no handle and he said I couldn't do nothing. So he kind of leaked in the back of the car. But he heard the guy called Darlene D. So he said, I feel that he knew Darlene and Darlene knew who it was. Because initially she said don't worry about it until the guy came back. And he said Get your driver's license out. It's a cop, except it wasn't a cop. And he shot them several times. I mean, he said, but he got a good look at them. And he said he he had a large face document but he was wearing glasses. He seemed really 26 to 30 years old, short, curly brown hair and a military style crew cut beefy, heavy set between like 180 200 pounds, but he wasn't fat. And he just kept firing. And he must have thought he killed both of them because he drove away. But he didn't kill Mike. And this time he called the police. The guy calls the police and he says I want to report a double murder. If you go one mile east, and then the woman Nancy slover tried to interrupt him, but the guy just like he just barreled over what she said, if you go one mile east of Columbus Parkway to the public park, you will find kids and a brown car they were shot with a nine millimeter Luger. I also killed those kids last year, goodbye. And she said when the guy said goodbye, he sounded like he was being kind of cocky. And he left the phone dangling. And there was a guy there was a middle aged black guy that was passing by and happen to see this because they did get a palm print off of this telephone later on. The problem with this case also is because it happened in different counties. And this still goes on to this day Honest to God, which sucks, but it's true. They they don't always say you know, all of the information that they have about a case, which really back then, you know, nowadays information. So out there, I mean, we have the citizens app, which in Philadelphia, unfortunately is going off every second but I there was 499 murders, we didn't hit 500 but I'm suspicious that the one that was calling at 1230 was secretly called me for 1230 because they didn't want it to say that we had 500 murders. So okay, I'm starting to feel a little better now. So this guy, so they get the palm the palm print, but yes, they did not share information. So this really impeded progress back then. But Mike survive and that was a good thing because at least they got Well, they got the start of a really difficult case. This is when the letters started. The cryptogram started this strange symbol started the writer of the letters to newspapers to law enforcement agencies. He would take credit for the matter the murders of David and Betty Lou and Darlene he thought he killed Mike but he didn't Mike was to survive. So he wrote his first letter to the editor a since jack the Ripper. It wasn't done like this. People didn't write letters to the editor killers didn't write letters to the editor and it said this dear editor, this is the murder of the two teenagers last Christmas at Lake Herman and the girl on the Fourth of July. Near the golf course in belay how to prove I kill them I shall state some facts which only I and the police know Christmas brand name of mo super x which was correct. It was super X ray it was copper coated 10 shots were fired Laurie The boy was on his back with his feet to the car for the girl was on her right side to the west Fourth of July, which was the Darlene and Mike Miguel. One girl was wearing pattern slacks the boy also shot to the boy was also shot in the knee three brand name of mo was Western here is a part of the site for the other two parts of the cipher are being mailed to the editors and this is what started off with the Z 240 and the Z three four a and all that stuff. I want you to print this cipher on the front page of your paper in this cipher is my identity. If you do not print this cipher by the afternoon of Friday, first of August 69. I will go on a killing rampage Friday night. But he spells it fry fry. I will cruise all around weekend killing lone people in the night, then move on to kill again until I end up with a dozen people over the weekend. Now he sounds like an idiot the way he writes. But the guy was no fool the code were very intense. And he sent out this code that I mean I can put the code on the right shoe podcast calm. I don't think he ever thought anyone would crack it and do a Donald Jean harden and his wife Betty would crack it. And Donald g Norton said it was because of his wife's doggedness that he fight you know, he was the instigator but she was the finisher. And this was the first cry This was the first cipher I like killing people because it is so much fun. It is more fun than killing wild game in the forest. Because man is the most dangerous animal to kill something gives me the most thrilling experience it is even better than getting your rocks off with a girl The best part is that they spelled th e when I die I will be reborn in Paradise and they have killed will become my slaves they I have killed will become my slaves. I will not give you my name because you will try to slow down or a top my collection of slaves for the afterlife. Now there was a few letters left and within the letters they thought this has to be his name. The name they came up with was Robert Emmet the hippie or Emmett? Oh, right. Robert henzel. I am arayat KENNETH Oh, right. Leo Blackman, FL Boone, Timothy E Fi, Bertie. I mean, this guy was a real piece of work. So they had everybody on this damn cryptogram and and they just couldn't find it. I mean, it was just crazy. You know, it really was. This is when the next killing began. And this was on September 27 1969. Now this killing would hark back to a 1963 killing which I cannot imagine was a would just be wild for it to be a different person because everything was done the same. It was astounding. Okay, and the thing that makes this so spooky scary, is that these two another good pair kids, Cecilia Shepherd, she was 22 Brian Horton was 20. And good looking couple they were in I think Cecilia had wanted to go to San Francisco maybe I am not sure where she initially wanted to go to. But she they went to Lake Berryessa which I've seen pictures of and it is just gorgeous. Now the dangerous game that that last man, I just don't get my brain rolling. Now they lay down on the grass and Cecilia can make a figure of a man in the distance immediately. And he was freaking out because apparently he was the way he was moving was odd. And he was like, in and out in and out and she could see him she couldn't she could see him she couldn't and then suddenly he came straight out and he was wearing like an executioner's outfit, which from it, they said it looked like a medieval executioner's outfit. When it came out. She saw that he had a gun. She She said, you know, okay, she heard the rustling of leaves. And she said it's that man. He said Is he alone and she She said he just stepped from behind the tree. And he said, Well keep looking and tell me what happens. Then the stocky man came for me I nitori and Cecilia noticed that he had a gun. Now the man circled them and when he came out he had on this ceremonial midnight black blade square on top with four corners like a paper sack. He resembled some executioner from the middle ages eight was a bizarre there was like slits in the eyes and a mouth cut into the cloth. He wore a pair of clip one sunglasses over them, and Brian said that EMR he was stunned at how ingenious the mask was, like it was pretty, it was inventive. The man's dark sleeves were clamped tight around his wrist. His pants were tucked into his boots. They looked like he was wearing some sort of military type. What they rubber is they call them boots, but the ones that you can stick your pant legs into, on one side, he had a knife strapped on, and it looked at least a foot long. And around his waist was a holster. So he can he was solid. He wasn't fat. He came toward them with a with a semi automatic pistol. He you know, right away, Brian said, I just tried to, you know, talk to them. Now. This is what gets to me every time he said the Voice was like that of his students. It was kind of a draw, but not a southern draw. It was a, like a slow draw, like of that of a kid. I want your money in your car keys. And then Brian thought, okay, it's just a robbery. And Brian thought to himself that he seemed not. He didn't seem well educated, but he wasn't illiterate. So again, it goes back to all these misspellings with the cryptograms. But yet, they couldn't enter the FBI and all them couldn't crack it. So he was like a, an idiot savant. I would call that, you know, like you're, you're kind of dopey, but you're an error genius in some parts, a modern day, you know, Asperger's kind of guy, that he had a black blue windbreaker on. And he could see that there was a circle with that cross symbol, and it was sewn on black gloves. And he was about six feet tall. Brian was tall. So he said he was a bad Judge of height, he came over to them asked them at Brian said, I don't have any money, but I can help you. And he said, Now, I am an escaped convict from Montana. I've killed a prison guard. And I've stolen a car, I have nothing to lose. I'm flat broke. And Brian said, well, when you either be stuck on a stealing charge than a homicide, and he said, Don't start playing hero. And don't try to grab the gun. Brian said he didn't think that gun would be loaded. And he was trying to call his bluff. He gave him his keys. And they talked for quite a while the guy was probably just getting off on the fact that he was going to kill these kids. So he told them, I lay facedown on the ground. I'm going to tie you all. And Brian said, I became really annoyed at the thought of being tied up. I just wanted you know this to be done. She said Cecilia was really scared. And he the guy looked at the hooded masked man looked at Cecilia and said, You tie that boy up. She tied him really loose, you know, so that he could keep his hands apart. Her hands were shaking, and the guy retired them very tightly. That's when he started getting nervous. Brian said Why would anyone tie you up after they had robbed you? Or found out you didn't have any money? Why didn't he have me walk 100 yards the other way and say don't turn around? It didn't make any sense. Like he was probably getting more that poor kid. I mean, can you imagine? And then the worst thing of all, he started stabbing a male. Can you imagine laying there and being stabbed? Do you know how bad of pain these two kids must have been? I mean, they must have been in horrible, horrible pain. It breaks my heart thinking of them. Again. The killer thought that he killed both both kids. So we laughed and there was a fisherman who eventually called the police and the investigators when they went to get to the car. They found inscribed in black felt tip pen fillet whoa 12 2060 874 69 September 27 69 at 636 30 by knife, they were the dates of the killings in Vallejo and Solano counties. You know, apparently he had moved north at this time. They didn't realize it but they would start to really investigate this and go back over the Zodiac. I mean, they were investigating they had a taste force and everything else they would find that and June 3 1963, Robert Domingo and Linda Edwards, they were both ditching school. And same thing that happened to Brian and Cecilia had happened to this couple Robert Domingo and Linda Edwards June 3 1963 gaviota Beach, they had decided to go for senior ditch day and they had parked off of Highway 101 and went down to the shore no one knows the precise timing or sequence of events, but at some point, they were confronted with an armed man 22 caliber weapon possibly a rifle. The man produced pre cut lengths of rope and ordered Linda to tie Roberts hands. After that the man may have tried to bind Linda's hands but Robert somehow freed himself and fought back enough for the couple to run away. The man apparently shot both Robert Allen in the back and they fell to the ground together. He then we loaded his weapon and fired many more shots into the victims. The man then drag the bodies to a makeshift shack and through the victims inside they the kit the killer collected the couple's belongings into and toss them into the shack and he tried to set the place on fire. That was the only difference that concerned parents became. The parents became concerned when the teenagers never returned home and member of Roberts family remembered that The couple have been to a spot on gaviota Beach. That's when they discovered the murder teenagers and it remained unsolved in 1970. Detective bill Baker was assigned to the cold case in Santa Barbara, and he'd been looking over it and he so he, I guess he contacted the San Francisco Police Inspector William Armstrong, who had been assigned to the Zodiac investigation with his partner inspector David Tashi, who would be instrumental in the Zodiac case. He believed that the Zodiac may have killed Robert Domingo's and Linda Edwards, and according to Baker Armstrong said he would never think of this area crimes again without including this 1963 case, which I agree it just seems very, very strange. It's just so similar unless the man I mean, I'm just going over this in my head, unless whoever did this, the Zodiac if truly the Zodiac it only killed five people I wanted to, although I do believe there's one more that he did, and we're going to get to that. Maybe he had heard about that and just kind of the real Zodiac had copycat in that particular one because he thought it was cool or liked it. I mean, I'm trying to figure it out. Because, you know, cuz you'd look up the Zodiac have been more than one person but outs if you're just going by the five and the two dead victims and the two that survived, I think they were done by one person. I really do. And I also think this girl, Cheri Jo Bates was a part of the zodiac victims, which happened on October 30 1966. Because of the person that I think the Zodiac was trying to do this in order. And because it's easy to start getting so worked up about who the Zodiac was that you want to get to that part, the next one, that would be the Zodiac would be. And this is the thing with the zoo. This is why the Zodiac is so difficult of a case. He never really followed a set pattern. His mo was different. He didn't even you know, he killed he stabbed a shot, he there was nothing that was totally similar except for their ciphers and the constant toning of the press, and even that they have a certain amount that was him. And then there's a second book by Robert gray Smith, and he has so many letters that the Zodiac sent the newspapers and the police. Okay, so Paul Stein was a cab driver And this was a straight up. They were this guy. I mean, he was just, he got there was a fair he got into the car and he just straight out, grabbed him by the throat and squeezed the trigger and killed. Paul Lee Stein was a 29 year old cab driver. I killed him. And there this time there happened to be a party across the street and they thought that they thought they were looking out the window and seeing a guy being robbed. They didn't really see it was being killed, but they did call the police and they saw a stocky man cradling the head of the cab driver in his lap. He appeared to be struggling with something or searching for something. This stocky man got out of the cab, and they were calling the calling the police during this time. He turned the corner and passed the mailbox. He went to a he went to a phone booth. Now the APB This is interesting. There's two different stories when I was doing my research. I also listened to Generation Y podcast, which had a guy Mike Morford, who runs a place called Zodiac Killer site.com. And I mean, this guy really has a lot of information. I was fascinated by this one part of the story because I did not know this in the book, The Zodiac by Robert gray Smith. It is written that the San Francisco Police talk to the Zodiac. What happened was after he killed Robert Stein, that the APB went out there it was a black male adult. That was what the wire came across. And they patrolmen, Donald folk and Eric zome. So a man lumbering in the fog looking for a black man, they shouted to the stranger and asked if he had seen anything unusual, this stocky man called out, said he saw a man waving a gun running east or Washington and the patrol cars but often that direction. Now, I just took that as fact. But when I listened to this podcast, he had said, know that, you know, this was another example of the zodiacs taunting he the the cop said right away, that they had heard that the black man that it wasn't a black man, it was switched to a white male immediately. So they never talked to a guy. And whether they did or not, if they had, I mean, it's true that this guy would have had a nine millimeter on them, he probably would have shot both of them. You know, that's the thing with the element of surprise is it just reminds me of an incident, which I heard from homicide about six months ago, and it was kind of scary. They were had to do they were doing a warrant. and nine times out of 10 It's a standard procedure you go or Ollie you knock on the door, you get him usually the person hides on the roof or runs out the back door. But this time, there was a guy who had you know how they open the door. There were there was there's a crack. There was a guy that had a nine millimeter pointed at them. Now they could he could have shot them. And it was just so happens that SWAT saw it quickly, but it only takes one second. So you know whether or not these cops talk to them. It kind of sucks because in one aspect if they did, you know they lost that opportunity. But if if they did it or whatever happened, they probably would have gotten shot anyway. And when the guy had blood all over his shirt, because the partygoers saw him cradling this guy's head for whatever reason, and he left two fingerprints on the car, which is still I guess, waiting for a match. That's never nothing is matching it no one has matched it yet, but they've fingerprinted that's really harsh. So that's the closest I got and that's the last known kill. There have been several instances like there was a Donna last which I'm not exactly sure she disappeared from the San Francisco area and they sometimes associate her with the Zodiac although I you know the Zodiac claim that he got 37 people I you know who knows this If this is true or not, Donna and last disappeared at the age of 25 at Lake Tahoe, California and what was one of the possible victim of the famous Zodiac Killer? She was last seen at approximately 2am on September 6 1970. Since that time there tracer Donna has ever been found. I don't know why they think she's part of the zodiac I really know. But they list her as a possible one. Also, there's another instance that is in that movie again and that's why I thought I'd mention it but I don't believe I What happened was there was a girl named Kathleen Johns she had been abducted what did happen was okay, so this Kathleen Johns her and her infant daughter on the way to visit a sick relative and I don't know California She later identified this man this is early access abled her car he said there was something wrong with her car so she pulled over to have him fix it only to have it really break when she tried to pull away so he must have disabled it if this happen or if this guy did that people question everything about her story. Now some were saying it was even an insurance try because it was set on fire the car john had pulled over because the the man had gestured that our wheel was wobbling. The offer to fix the problem which was made worse when she pulled back onto the highway, the wheel came off. The man convinced her to accept a ride. As soon as she got the car, he was driving down these desolate roads and she jumped out got away from she hid until a trucker came by now they there's a lot of refuting this story. And I only said I only put it in here because it was in that movie. But I don't even know why they it doesn't seem it What happened was it later on this early I must have read about her in the paper and said oh that was me because he was starting to threaten children. He was starting to say I'm going to kill a busload of children. I'm going to do this if you don't wear Zodiac pins. I'm going to you know, he was constantly threatening. In fact, in 1970 he wrote this in the second Zodiac Zodiac unmask Robert gray Smith puts a lot of the zodiacs letters to the paper in the picture part of the book and it says this is the Zodiac speaking it being that you will not wear some nice button How about wearing some nasty buttons and it always has the Zodiac symbol with this circle with the cross in it or any type of buttons that you can think of. If you do not wear any type of buttons, I shall torture on top of everything else, all of my all 13 of my slaves that I have waiting for me in paradise so I shall tie over ant hills and watch them scream and Twitch and squirm. Others will have pine splinters driven underneath their nails and then burned. Others shall be placed in cages and fed salt beef until they are gorge then I will listen to their pleas for water and I shall laugh at them. Others will hang by the thumbs and then I will rub them with DPW to warm them up. Others I show skin them alive while listening. The lot of them run around screaming and all billiard players. I still have them playing a dark dungeon and with crooked cues and twisted shoes. Yes, I shall have great fun and flirting them delicious pain. Oh my goodness, this guy. Wow. is unbelievable. Now before I go on to the last the cipher that was just cracked, which made me tackle this whole thing. I will go to who I really do think was the part of the zodiac Tally. I believe this because I think what happened is this. I think this guy I really believe that this guy was a kid at the time. CHERI Jo Bates was killed on October 30 1966. The handwriting that was found after she was killed now what happened was I do not know what to think. CHERI Jo Bates. The date of the murder was October 30 1966. She had to go to the library. She was really upset because she misplaced a huge term paper. So she she said I'm gonna have to start all over again with just my note cards. She went there she waved. She did not wait back. They don't think that she saw are they there that she entered the library. Somebody offered her help they when they backtrack they seen that somebody had offered her helped him but he got her. This unknown assailant got her to go down this unlit gravelly road about 75 yards from our car, and then he he pressed the knife against her throat and he began choking her. She was an athletic girl and she began to fight back and she ripped off his wristwatch, which was on the ground. She scratched his face and she had DNA underneath her fingernails. He had been kicked in the head, a short knife had been punched in her chest twice. Our left cheek and upper lip were cut and three slashes in her throat her jungler was severed as well as her voice box and she was almost a capitated she was facedown on the ground when the knife when the killer plunged in life into her left shoulder blade turned up brown where they struggled look like a freshly plowed field. When her dad came home, he figured that his daughter went out with friends and went to sleep and when he woke up he realized that she was gone and that's when they found her body. And there was one type of shoe print it was a military type of shoe so only a military outlets. It was the size eight to 10 and produced by Leavenworth prisoners. They found a brace scrapings of human skin and skin and hair. Now in the book by Robert gray Smith, he lists her as a definite victim of the zodiac. Robert gray Smith has a very he definitely has his thoughts about what who why and where and nobody's going to change them and good for him because I mean, that's the way you got to be. There was a strange thing that a janitor found bluepoint ballpoint pen written on the library desk sick of living unwilling to die. Cut clean if rent clean let's burning dripping spilling all over her new dress. Oh, well, it was read anyway. Life draining into an uncertain death. She won't die this time. Some one. Oh finder, just wait till next time. This was a copy of a photocopy of something that the Zodiac Killer had wrote. She was young and beautiful, but now she is battered and dead. She's not the first and she will not be the last I lay in light. I lay awake nights thinking about my next victim. Maybe she will be the beautiful blonde that baby sits near the little shore and walks down a dark alley each evening about seven or maybe she will be the shapely blue eyed brunette that said no when I asked her for a day in high school, but maybe it will not be either. But I still cuddle for female parts and is positive for the whole city to see. So don't make it so easy for me keep your sisters daughters and wives off the streets and alleys Miss Bates was stupid. She went to the slaughter like a lamb. She did not put up a struggle but I did it was a ball I first pulled the metal wire from the distributor. Then I waited for the library and followed her out about two minutes the battery must have been about dead by then. I then offered to help. She was then very willing to talk to me. I told her that my car was down the street and then I would give her a lift home. When we were away from the library walking I said it was about time she asked me about time for what I said it was about time for you to die. I grabbed her on the neck with my hand over her mouth and my other hand with a small knife at her throat. She went very willingly. Her breasts felt very warm and firm under my hands but only one thing was off was all my mind making her pay for the brush off that she had given me during the years prior. She died hard she squirmed in shock and I choked her and her lips twitched. But I let out a scream once and I kicked her head to shut her up. I plunged a knife into her and it broke I finished I then finished the job by cutting our throat I am not sick I am not insane but that will not stop that game. The letter should be published for all to read. It just means save you that girl in the alley but that's up to you. It will be on your conscious not mine. Yes, I did make that call to you. Also, it was just a warning. Beware. I am stalking your girls nail cc chief of police enterprise. Now these were all the killers. These were the kills of this era. EQ which Cheri Jo Bates and the first to Domingo and Edwards. Our words are not agreed upon by all investigators the ones agreed upon are the David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen. This that was December 20 1968. July 4 1969. One killed one wounded that was the Darlene and Mike McHugh, Darlene Ferran and September 27 at 69 one wounded one killed on the Lake Berryessa and then finally we have October 11 1969 Paulie Stein and pulley Stein differs because he was a man and and he was in a cab I'm not sure what was going on with the Zodiac whether it's like the time and when the Ripper at the one time he killed two women in the night but they think it's because there's five that they pretty much agree upon but there was two done at night and the five which are the agreed upon because of the mo and everything in the same night Elizabeth stride and Catherine others were both killed they feel as though he was caught during the the killing of because she wasn't killed in quite the same way as the other five not as viciously they they believe it's because like something got him in the middle of doing it and that's why he had to kill another person. It was just and then the last one was just unbelievable. I think that this might have been what happened with the Zodiac I believe that he Paul stride he was in a frenzy at this point. And he just had to kill somebody, anybody and Paul strivers in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now there is many many that the list I will read the one the Z 340 because that was the one they just cracked. And when I read that I thought might At first I thought they had they wrote that they caught Zodiac which would have been just amazing. Oh, that would have been so cool. But unfortunately, it wasn't that what the message said, and it was supposed to have his name there. And you know, originally He said, If you figure this out, my name is in there, but it doesn't seem like that. So this is what the message says. I hope you're having lots of fun in trying to catch me. That wasn't me on the TV show. Which brings up a point about me I am not afraid of the gas chamber because it will send me to paradise. All this sooner because I now have enough slaves to work for me. Or everyone else has nothing when they reach paradise, so they are afraid of death. I am not afraid of death. Because I know that my new life will be easy one in paradise death. Now, it's amazing that all these years you know this guy was obsessed with this paradise and death and in many schizophrenics and people that are mentally disturbed they believe killers in general, they they have this feeling that if they when they kill people, they become a part of them and that they will control them in death. That is very, I mean he is right in line with a killer. He really does fit that mold. The problem is is with the Zodiac is that there's no there's no consistency with him. I am and there's no it's a shame because in the book Yeah, let me get some of the and Zodiac amassed. Robert gray Smith really fingered this author Lee Allen as the guy like he just has no doubt in his mind he feels it and you know if you feel it if you he really did write a fantastic book, but there are problems with Arthur Leigh Allen all of the evidence against him is no DNA, no fingerprints, palm prints, nothing matched him. And for the sake of because this was the most often made one I will go through some of what the evidence was against him Mike McHugh, which had been the one with Darlene in the car and when they when the guy shot them, and he felt the handle and there was no handle very good. He said I felt like a sitting duck I could not get away from him. He just kept shooting. He picked Alan out of a police lineup. surviving a victim Brian Hart now identified his voice and physical appearance as being similar to the Zodiac. circumstantial evidence includes That in through the premise of writing a book he told his friend Don Chani that he would like to kill couples randomly. He wanted to taunt the police with letters and, and details of his crimes, he would sign the letters with the cross circle symbol from his watch, which was the Zodiac watch with the circle and the claws through it. He wanted to call themselves Zodiac one day they would wear makeup to change his appearance, and he would attach a flashlight to the barrel of his gun. That's how he he had the Zodiac though at night. He said he had a little flashlight pencil flashlight that he would attached to the gun scope so that when he shot he could get a better aim or whatever he shot that flashlight at it was that's how he was so accurate. He claims Allen was born on December 18. Around the same time, the Zodiac told attorney Melvin bellies housekeeper over the phone. That was his birthday and he needed to kill someone. Alan lived in Vallejo near the blue Rock Springs and Lake Herman road murders. Allen was allegedly in Riverside on the weekend when Cheri Jo Bates was murdered. He later claimed to be in Pomona, Pomona when he heard of Bates martyr. Allen took his only sick day of the year on November 1 1966. And Bates was murdered on October 30 1966. That's if the Bates is truly the victim of the zodiac. The Vallejo Police Department seized a royal typewriter with elite tight from Allentown which is the same brand of type I used to write the Bates letters. To date the typewriter has not been compared to the Bates letters. He received the Zodiac watch from his mother for Christmas in 1967. Allen communicate to his friend Philip that he was fascinated with the idea of killing people and he did have this thing with killing animals. He did get caught molesting children. And that's why he was kicked out of being a school teacher. an elementary school teacher now with spring brings me back to when he would talk to the police by saying he was going to kill a school load of children on a bus. He consistently use children but I'm not so sure if that was to put, you know, because of course when you say children, it's going to strike more fear into the heart of investigators. Nobody wants a school load of children to be killed. I don't know if it was that or because he had a thing with kids. So that's interesting. And it goes on and on and on about his wife stated that he was taught to write right handed as a child even though he was left handed so he became quite ambidextrous, which is why the handwriting evidence might not have matched the some of the exculpatory evidence. The eyewitness of the Stein murder scene claim that Allen was not the man they saw they saw what happened and they thought it was a robbery but they were not under particular duress. So they got a good look at this guy were when the other people Mike McHugh and Brian Brian Hart now they were under such duress. I mean, they just got shot. They were this guy's getting stabbed. It's It is God. It makes you go in circles. The fingerprints palm prints did not match DNA didn't match. his handwriting was not a match. He did not wear glasses. But Mike McHugh did not see any glasses. And he is old with gray black hair, not brown hair. I just see he died of a heart attack on August 26 1992. Before investigators could get a chance to talk to him. You can look up author Leyland and there's many many Zodiac Killer, Wikipedia zodiac, there's all kinds of Zodiac sites out there. And just to see for yourself what you think I have another person in mind, but I do respect what Robert gray Smith which there was also a scene in a movie, there was a guy named Richard Marshall he was a ham radio operator and a movie projectionist. He lived in Riverside in 1966. And later in San Francisco near where Stein was murdered visitors to his hotel police they found him peculiar and then he had talked about finding something much more exciting than sex martial like all movies, including the red Phantom, which was mentioned in a 1974 Zodiac left He lived in a basement apartment which Zodiac also cited. And he earned a typewriter and a teletype similar to those that deserve the aqis. He both liked felt tip pens and odd size paper. Also, this was the port in the movie, which was so frightening when Jake Gyllenhaal who's portraying Robert gray Smith, and it's in the book, too, when he goes in there, you know, this is when they're showing how obsessed that Robert gray Smith started to become. When he went to this guy's house. The guy you talked to was named Bob one. He was talking to him about Richard Marshall. He said, You know, he led them into the basement to find this canister that supposedly would explode when you opened it but had all the secrets of the zodiac or something to that effect. It was a canister that he was looking for. So he said he did not have the canister that Richard Marshall took it back from him. So they go down into the basement. Robert gray Smith said I could hear footsteps upstairs. I have chills in the back of my neck from this because it is scaring me a little bit because I can just picture being in this guy's basement. You been looking for the Zodiac for years and years. And then you're in this creepy guys basement. And you hear footsteps up stairs? I mean, you have to he said he just hides the other out of there. So it's just it is a creepy creepy thing. I mean, I think he became so obsessed with this. wanting to know who it was. And when you're reading this, you do you want to know who the Zodiac Killer is. I still want to know who this guy was. It's frustrating. That's what your Marshal why they roll him out. There was a 1989 TV interview he designed he denied being the Zodiac. Napa County Sheriff detectives who served this case for decades said Marshall makes good reading but not a very good suspect for whatever the reasons Yeah, I mean, the the evidence is kind of poultry. There's one guy okay, I'm gonna save him for last because he's a good one. And he is agreed upon right now. Among all the Zodiac websites. He is kind of top of the food chain due to certain things that cannot be refuted. So then we have Lawrence Kane. Lawrence Kane worked in the same Lake Tahoe hotel as Donna last who disappeared in 1970. But they can't even agree if she is a Zodiac victim. He served in the naval reserves where he might have learned coding and in 1962 car accident left him with a brain injury that could have compromised his ability to control urges. He was arrested for peeping in 1961 and prowling in 1968. That's pretty. A retired police detective investigating the case claims that Kane's name was embedded in one of the zodiac sivers and that Darlene sister Linda had identified a photo of Cain as the man that she had sold bothering Darlene at a restaurant. A San Francisco Police officer who probably saw the Zodiac moments after Stein's murder said Kane's photo was closer than any other likeness he had seen and Kathleen John's The one who had escaped from the men. The one with the infant, also identified a photo of Cain as the abductor. I don't know quite what happened with Kathleen Jones, but I'm not so sure she got the Zodiac because I don't know. I just it doesn't have a Zodiac ring to me. I don't know, you know, now I'm gonna leave that for last. Let's say there's original Moore's law. Richard Guy caskey why he is suspected. Richard Guy caskey was an he edited a counterculture newspaper in San Francisco, a former coworker sent land long, rambling letters to long, fair forcement agencies accusing him of being the Zodiac and said a guy cask inviting them to engage in violent acts together. The accuser nicknamed gold catcher appeared in disguise on an episode of The History Channel's mystery quest in 2009. And provided recordings of guy cascades voice on the show of police dispatcher, who spoke to the Zodiac said she thought it was the same voice. Researcher Tom voice also knows that Geico appears and a part of a cipher that zodiac sign contains Isn't it? Yeah, I don't. Gold catcher was a known conspiracy theorists with little great credibility and one of the top three Zodiac Kooks. I just Yeah, he doesn't I don't know he's not ringing a bell. JACK Terrance David Kaufman also received extensive publicity claiming his late stepfather jack Terrence was the Zodiac dead ringer for the composite sketch claimed to have a stash of incriminating incidents including a roll of film depicting possible victims and a bizarre hooded costume like the one the Zodiac wore during the Lake Berryessa stabbings on a 2007 Discovery Channel documentary, a document examiner said terrines hand writing match the zodiacs law enforcement officials dismiss Kaufman's evidence as nonsense. One photos showed it just doesn't sound like it. The hooded costume he claimed was that not so fabulous? And this the this is from history dot coms. They had a real nice breakdown of the eight people who are most often referred to as the Zodiac. If you wanted to look this up, it is pretty fascinating. Now Donnelly boom Jacques, the hooded man who stabbed the couple at Lake Berryessa city had just escaped from a prison in Montana. According to Brian Cornell, who survived the attack researcher Kevin Brooks developed a lengthy circumstantial case implicating this man who was released from a Montana penitentiary, fellow inmates and he talks about killing people and making them slaves in the afterlife. He claimed the Halloween card there was a famous Halloween card sent to reporter Paul Avery, that is actually Halloween cards seems to be what when, you know, again, back then we didn't get information the same way. Information wasn't obtained the same way the Halloween card written deploy, gained notoriety. And that's when they started connecting a few of the other cases such as the Cheri Jo Bates, once they they in the Domingo and Edwards cases. I mean, before that there just wasn't they were just unsolved cases. When the Zodiac came about, that's when they started putting things together. And I have to say that Domingo and Edwards case is just like the very asset Lake Berryessa I mean, the cut rope and all that it very much rings true. So Bruce Zhang's fingerprints did not match and they said that he said the prison was in Colorado, not Montana, that he was in jail in the lake during the lake arming kit killings. I don't know I don't know song. You know, there's a reason some of them are thought to be this one I thought was amusing. There's a guy named Earl van best Jr. and wrote, Gary Stewart wrote a book in 2014, the most dangerous animal of all, where he made a great case that his biological father, Earl van bass was a Zodiac he resembled the Zodiac. He lived in California at the times of the killings. He was a Satanist and oh, a Manson family member, which brings me to some really oddball ones they like there's one that Ted Cruz is the Zodiac but and then that the betaine BTK killer is earlyiq but one I don't think it's so goofy. Now think about it in 1969 that is when what happened the most infamous case of all the case of I mean I think this is why the Zodiac at the time didn't like knocking out of the park as far as being so worldwide well known is because Manson came and killed Sharon Tate. You know, the Manson murders and the labianca and that case I always knew about and as even as a kid I Helter Skelter, all that I up and down. I should do that case, because I know that one a lot better. And I've been reading about it my whole life. This one completely took me by surprise when they saw that z 340. And again, that's why I started re I did not know this case, was this fascinating. So in 1969, there was all those killings in Los Angeles. But what if Manson had a few of his friends up in the San Francisco area? I mean, that's a possibility. I mean, that's a total conspiracy theory and off the wall, but I don't know something about that. It rings true to me. I mean, insofar as it's not as goofy as any other theories, maybe it was, but they were so like into shining a light on themselves. I'm sure at this point we would have probably heard, I it's just food for thought. You never know. So let's go back to this one because this one was kind of amusing. This guy writes his book, and people are like, Well, you know, he's making a compelling argument. He claims so films, best initials and Zodiac ciphers, and a document examiner said that the handwriting on best marriage to delegate match the zodiacs and this was it. This is the big thing. He solved the mystery until they found out that the marriage certificate was the minister's handwriting that best as for best resemblance, I saw this picture he did not have that is not a midwinters pink. That's a receding hairline. I completely agree with that. One of the things that that guy Mike from Zodiac Killer site, he said when he was going through the Who could it be? He said that this Edward van best had a had a receding hairline I completely agree with on that is not a widow's peak. I know people with widow's peaks. widow's peaks are distinct. your hairline literally is putting boobies on top of a head like you're it's a weird like comes forth a receding hairline. It's all the way back in it and a half moon not Ruby shaped, half moon shaped. And this guy does not have a widow's peak. Who has a widow's peak, I say this one that I waited till last and I am telling you, Ross all of him. Alright, first of all, as before I even for when I was just looking at the murders and reading about the murders. Before I got it, I didn't want to be swayed by anybody. So I really didn't listen, I just read about the murders first. And I refuse to listen to anything until the end. Because I wanted to think about who would have done this. I wanted to like immerse myself and my when I get these feelings, you know, when I was sitting there thinking about the zodiac, and reading about him and reading about they're all kids except for Paul Stein. And I do believe that was because he was getting like a hunger for it. What happened? I don't know what happened after Paul Stein. Maybe he got I don't know, what happened to jack the Ripper. You know, I do believe that all these kids this when he wrote on that one girl, that's why I do think she is part of the zodiac. Sherry Bates. The guy that worked in the library was named Ross. So the whole time I was reading this, I'm thinking this sounds like it. Even the guy in Lake Berryessa bill Hart. No guy. He said that. He really thought that it sounded like a kid. Not not a stupid kid, but not completely educated, which is exactly how he comes off. You know, now people were thinking he was older because of certain phrases used but that doesn't necessarily. I don't know, I just kept thinking kid kid kid. Now this Ross Sullivan. Okay. The 1966 murder object. CHERI Jo Bates in Riverside, California for many similarities to the Zodiac killings. Stanford at the Riverside City College, where but Bates body was found, said Ross Sullivan, who worked at the library made them uncomfortable and disappeared for days after the murder. And I am going to tell you, first of all, this is even more so he suffered from bipolar and schizophrenia, which goes right in line with with when he talks about all those slaves in the afterlife. That's a big schizophrenic thing, thinking that you're gonna that when you kill somebody, you're going to have these slaves in the afterlife. You're an army jacket and military style boots like those that left footprints at the Lake Berryessa stabbings, all of them have why rule down except for this guy. I it's amazing. I mean, this. I'm telling Oh my God, if I'm gonna put this down picked her up one right to podcast calm. This guy is this Spitting Image a couple of years ago. Okay, this is I didn't even know this is from Zodiac sivers.com. Some i don't i don't i don't have who wrote who's in charge of Zodiac ciphers. But this is extensive as well. I implore you to go and investigate this case it is absolutely bad thing. But if you go to Derby x savers.com Ross omens right on the front, you cannot forget the Cheri Jo Bates murder, no doubt you have your prime suspect. As to the riverside police. The Riverside police just don't believe that it was was sold and they have their own suspect. But the DNA didn't match their suspect. But there's still I know that people just seem to have their suspect and they don't care what the heck matches are not. A couple of years ago, I called the police to ask about our suspect and was totally had an alibi for that night. Our response to that is his alibi would be too frightened not agree with his alibi. That is very true. That is very, very true. All of us worked at RCC during this time and knew better than we care to know this. The reason for suspecting are all circumstantial, but we are all convinced enough about this potential for doing harm that even one faculty member doesn't want her name years and he died in 1977. This guy, okay, let's say what this guy says one or any night after he was back in Riverside, I stopped at a liquor store. I pulled up alongside a car that was parked just in front of the store doors. And when I ran back to the car, something told me to do a strange thing. I ran around to the passenger side in a flash. I had the door open it was inside and the door locked behind me just that instant Ross came from around a large hedge in front of my car and walk between the two cars in the parking lot. He did not look at me. Needless to say I drove rather as quickly as possible. I don't know I don't know what happened to this guy. I don't know or so was Ross. Ross Olga was a mentally ill teenager when he was committed to the California Patton state mental hospital in the late 1950s and early 60s after his mom died, there was a great deal of evidence that he might have been the Zodiac Killer. I mean, he is a spitting image of his damn pictures. This Spitting Image he has a widow's peak as the glasses although Mike Magoo said there was no glasses. This is the weird thing with Zodiac. As soon as you get to one part, it's knocked off by another part. And I asked on the slide about this, and they said it is too long and too confusing. And this stop and don't do any more serial killer biogas because they are insanely confusing, and so many rabbit holes, I hope I you know, got at least the gist of the Zodiac Killer and what it was about and for all you folks that want to look deeper, go to the Zodiac by Robert gray Smith first, then possibly tackle the Zodiac on man's. Otherwise, watch that movie, because they did a pretty damn good job of that. I mean, you really do have to read the book to understand like, even in the beginning when they're showing Darlene it's confusing if you didn't read the book, because there is a lot of stuff and the fact that he knew her and it said D when he shot what Mike heard the Zodiac Killer say D when he was shooting them. So that's my take on the Zodiac Killer. I'm throwing around stuff again. I always look I've done mostly all the suggestions I have. I did want to say that there was a I did go on my Instagram I had went over this horrible story of horrible killing about a young man Jason Sweeney. And he was only 16 when he was killed. He was ruthlessly murdered by this girl had lured them into the park under the pretense of like making out or sex or whatnot. They him and so called friends beat them to death with rocks. She was just let out. I don't I had said her name on the I she I don't want to say because she's laid out. I mean, but she was laid out and I, it's surprising to me. I don't think she should have been laid out. But it's a shame. Our parents parents got to be nuts about that. But I am working on there's a couple of stories that I think I might do. I'm gonna do a Philly one again. You know drove back to Philly next. There is a case that was brought to my attention. And is this Stephanie zelensky case and probably murdering her name. I do want to go through that. So this is Debbie Q and you're listening to the right show.