54 💼 Selecting a Divorce Attorney You'll Love [Atty Mandee Pingel]

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Attorney Mandee Pingel is debuting today as my first REPEAT GUEST on the show. We talked with Ms. Pingel about Military Divorce back in October 2020 in Season 1 of the show. Today, she is excited to come back with this all-too-important conversation about how to wisely select an attorney for your divorce.  Attorney Pingel's episode on the show last year STILL ranks in the TOP 2 for number of downloads, and I expect an equally favorable response to her second and equally important topic here today!

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Transcript

Selecting a Divorce Attorney You’ll Love [Attorney, Mandee Pingel]

Annie Allen: [00:00:00] Hi survivors! This is Annie Allen with the Starting Over Stronger Divorce Survival & Recovery show. Today's guest is a family law attorney, Mandee Pingel, with KC family law. And I am so excited to bring back my first-ever repeat guest with another important topic. If you missed Mandee's first appearance on the show, it was last fall. And we talked about the all-important stuff you need to know if you want to DD214 your marriage, and if you know, you know, military divorce. So, what's different about military divorce? What you need to know, check it out if that is important for you. That is still to date the number one downloaded episode of all time on the show. So, I am super excited about having Mandee back to talk about another equally important topic, 'How to select a family law attorney you will love?'

Announcer: [00:01:05] Welcome to the Starting Over Stronger show where you'll find help and hope for your divorce survival and recovery. Divorce well, Live well.

Annie Allen: [00:01:25] So, thanks again for being here, Mandee; welcome back! Tell us a little bit about you, your practice, anything you'd like? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:01:31] Sure. So, I've been practicing, going on close to 20 years at this point, and all I do is family law. I work on both sides of the state line, so Missouri and Kansas and our office tend to get involved in difficult and complicated kinds of situations. Such as divorces with asset issues, businesses unusual or difficult to value assets, custody cases with abuse issues, or other kinds of difficult complications. And I'm passionate about doing military divorces. You gave me an opportunity to speak about that last time. That's something; that's the way I feel like I can give back to some of our service members. We also do guardianships, adoptions, all kinds of family law matters.

Annie Allen: [00:02:18] Awesome. Well, thanks again for being here. And I know this is an important topic because it's usually the very first topic that I cover with my clients sometimes before they are even officially a client, we have a conversation about whether or not they've chosen an attorney and how to do it in a way that they will hopefully not regret and or have to fire an attorney or something. So, let's just get started with what would be the first thing that you would suggest when somebody decides to file for a divorce when they're thinking about that attorney selection process?

Mandee Pingel: [00:02:51] Absolutely. I think this is like you said, such a big topic, such an important topic because when people are going through a difficult time in their life and emotional time, a scary time selecting the person, the professional that's going to help them through that process can really kind of make or break the process. So, what I tell people to do in terms of their selection is start by doing their research. So read Google reviews. If they have concerns as they're doing their research, then certainly steer away, ask around for personal recommendations. And what I tell people is, if you're going to seek recommendations for such an important professional in your life, seek recommendations from someone that you personally trust. So maybe not your neighbor you enjoy having drinks with, but maybe your financial advisor or your therapist or other people that you have a lot of personal respect for. Those are probably people that are going to be able to guide you in the right direction from there. It's important that people find someone with experience and not just the number of years that they've maybe practiced or worked in this industry, but particularly someone that has experienced the kind of situation that they have. So, for example, I have lots of people that reach out to me and say, do you have any knowledge or ability to deal with a narcissistic spouse or someone that has these kinds of mental issues? And that's something I've done a lot of times over the years. And I think it gives you unique insight into what you're up against and how you deal with those kinds of things. So, finding someone that fits the needs of your unique situation is really important. And then my second thought would be to make sure that the professional that you're finding or researching is able to sort of dovetail the strategies, the conflict resolution, and the ultimate outcome that you want to seek.  So, your advocate, obviously your lawyer, they are going to be called upon to find solutions to unique problems and issues. And you need someone that is able to solve those problems, look at it in new ways, and try to give you a new perspective and new thoughts about how they might be able to help you come up with other resolutions or solutions. So, one of the things I tell my clients is you need someone that is truly a gifted problem-solver because while going through a divorce process, you're likely to have, you know, dozens, if not hundreds of problems that you present to your lawyer. And obviously, you're paying them to give you the advice to solve those problems. So, I think that's really a key component of finding the right fit.

Annie Allen: [00:05:53] Yeah, for sure. And on that note, I think, you know, what you're describing is really kind of an interview process. And one of my recommendations for my clients is to have at least two, if not three, of those conversations, even if you have to pay for them. And even if you have to pay a lot for them, because you get a lot of value out of that, and you really not only get sort of like the lawyer's pitch, right, but you also get their actual legal advice. Like you can talk about your specific situation, and because you're paying them, they can actually tell you exactly what they're going to do, how they're going to do it, you know, and what to look for in those situations. Whereas, you know, maybe with a free consultation, they would just give you more general information, I guess, is that true? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:06:40] Absolutely. I'm a fan of paying a lawyer for their time so that you can actually get their solid advice. Most lawyers that you have a free consultation with, a lot of times, it's going to be shorter in length. So, it might be 15 or 30 minutes. And what they're giving you for free is their sales pitch. You want to look for a lawyer that doesn't really have time to give you their sales pitch and has enough cases and enough business going on that they want to present you more, their legal strategies, their theories, their philosophies for handling their case, and then determine if that lawyer is going to be a good fit, a good professional for the situation and for the needs of your particular case.

Annie Allen: [00:07:23] Yeah, for sure. Now another thing is, does it matter if they specialize in divorce? What if they know a great lawyer that just practices in another specialty? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:07:32] Yeah. So, I think some lawyers have taken the approach depending on what area of the law they're in, that if they need extra cases or need extra money, that they'll just do some divorces because those are easy. Those are simple. And in my experience, that almost always ends up poorly for people. I tell my clients that just the book that we have each year that comes out with the divorce statutes is over a thousand pages in like, and I won't say I have them memorized, but I will say that I've read every page of them. And I refer to them, and I know where they are at on an as-needed basis. And so, some of the nuances of how we calculate child support, how we calculate maintenance, how properties should be divided factors and considerations the court looks at for awarding custody, those are all things that you come to learn, not only from knowing and understanding the law but also understanding how the judge you appear in front of is going to apply that law to a particular situation again. So, you can give the best possible advice to the client involved. And so, I think there's a lot of times a lot that is lacking when you have someone that is trying to be what I call a generalist, or even that they work in criminal law or other kinds of areas of the law. They simply can't know 10 areas of the law in an excellent way. It's just impossible for any one of us to do. 

Annie Allen: [00:09:02] Yeah, for sure. Well, and I mean, this is what everybody wants is to know for sure that they're picking the right one. Is that even possible? And how can we get it or even close to it? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:09:13] So I'm a huge believer in going with your gut and kind of just saying, does this feel good in my gut? Does this feel like the right decision? Like you said, I recommend to every client I speak with, please speak with more lawyers. If clients tell me that it's the first meeting that they've had, and they have time for their responsive deadline, I encourage them I say, "please go speak with a couple more lawyers. And if you come back to me and decide that I'm the right fit, then great, but I want you to really be confident in that decision." And I tend to think that speaking with a couple of different lawyers tends to make the decision that much clearer for people. I joke with my clients and say that a family lawyer is a kind of like a gynecologist or urologist. You have to be comfortable exposing everything about yourself to them. You have to be honest and sharing issues and the history of what's gone on and even mistakes that you've made personally. And when you don't do that, you risk potentially not getting the full information or advice that you need from them. So, I tell my clients that one of the first things in terms of them vetting out an appropriate lawyer is they need to be comfortable with their lawyer being in uncomfortable places like the bedroom or digging through their bank account to see their spending history is bad. I'm always impressed with lawyers that are confident enough in their skills and the niche that they can provide to clients that they can step back and encourage clients to make a careful, well-reasoned decision. Lawyers that encourage you to consult with other lawyers and encourage you to be confident in your decision. Generally, they don't need to engage in high-pressure sales tactics. They have enough business. They're confident enough in their reputation and in the information that they share and the quality of service and value that they can provide that they simply want you to decide that they are the right fit for your case. So, I tend to say that if you get an uneasy feeling about a lawyer, you feel like they're being overly pressuring and asking you to sign today, sign now, agree to them now, commit to them, do other kinds of things that feel like pressuring sales tactics, that's probably not the direction that you want to go.

Annie Allen: [00:11:36] Yeah, very good. And that's definitely a warning sign. What would be some other warning signs to be on the lookout for? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:11:42] So I think anytime that a lawyer is sharing some kind of confidential information from previous or other clients, it's one thing to kind of give an example or to say, you know, this is what I've done in another similar situation. That's one thing. But to give clients actual confidential information, tell them they can go look up this case or that they represented this or that well-known or famous person. And here's what they did in their case.  Those are violations of a lawyer's ethical duties. So, I think that's certainly a warning sign to be on high alert. Another huge warning sign to me is if the lawyer is not a good listener in the first consultation, then you're likely to have those struggles on an ongoing basis. And that's going to be frustrating to you; if it feels like they are unresponsive and distracted in that initial meeting, then again, likely you'll like to experience more of the same. You should leave a meeting feeling a sense of connection with the lawyer that your lawyer will be able to be a good support team with you. They'll be able to be a strong advocate. They're prepared to listen to you, understand your needs, and offer you solutions. Now that doesn't mean that they're going to tell you what you want to hear about everything. Frequently, it's our job as lawyers to tell clients not just what they want to hear but what they really need to hear. And sometimes our advice is contrary to what they might want to do. So, I think that's another important distinction that people recognize in terms of lawyers having to tell them things they might not want to hear. And yet, they should still feel that their lawyer was able to speak with them in a kind, compassionate, empathetic manner and help them to understand the advice that they're giving. Again, even if it's hard for somebody to hear. Another thing I think people should be certainly on the lookout for is any lawyers that have an attitude they're harsh, they're irritated, frustrated, disinterested, again in my mind and my belief you're likely to experience more of the same if that's how they're presenting in that initial consultation.

Annie Allen: [00:14:00] Yeah. Like that's the first impression, right? That you should be like on your best behavior at that point. Right? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:14:06] Absolutely.  I completely agree with that. So, clients that are researching or finding a family law attorney need an advocate in a really difficult time of their life. And so, going through a child custody or divorce situation is one of the hardest things that people ever go through. It's basically everything that matters most to them; it's their financial future and their future of their parenting and care for their children. So again, they need to feel confident that they have a lawyer that understands what is at stake and the importance of what's at stake. And to me, again, that starts with that initial consultation, being a good listener, being compassionate being interested in what clients have to say and what their concerns are.

Annie Allen: [00:14:53] Yeah. You know, if you don't mind, I'll share a little story here. I had a consultation, and I don't remember if it was free, and I think it might've been, but if it wasn't, it was just not very expensive. It wasn't anywhere near an hourly rate. And I left there feeling so, I don't even know the word, almost like ashamed or something. I don't know. Like I cried, but I didn't intend to. I wasn't trying to get any emotional reaction out of them, but I just was overcome with emotion when I was just talking about some things. And the impression that I got from this person was just, they couldn't care less. Like they didn't even hand me a box of tissues for that. They were more within reach of the box than I was. I had to get up and walk over to the box and get it. It was just a really, really bad feeling. So, I totally get what you're saying with this attitude. 

Mandee Pingel: [00:15:45] And clearly that's stuck with you for a long time to come.

Annie Allen: [00:15:48] Yeah, absolutely. It did. 

Mandee Pingel: [00:15:51] How a lawyer listens to people and not just struck the first consultation or meeting, but how they listen, if they're empathetic, if they're compassionate that sticks with people a lot of times for the rest of their life. So, it really is important that you find someone that you feel gives you dignity to what your fears and worries, and concerns are.  Another thing that I tell people is you don't want a lawyer that's going to make you bold promises. Family law is based on a lot of discretion with the judge. And a lot of times at the time people are coming to lawyers, the case hasn't been filed, it hasn't even been assigned to a judge. So, what any particular judge that may or may not is assigned to a client's case is likely to do or not do is very difficult for a lawyer to tell or promise someone in terms of, you know, what's going to happen. Um, if there are children involved, I think it's also important that you find someone that is passionate about children's needs and about what the children's needs are in going through a divorcing process. And so, for example, for myself, not only do I have three children, but I have tried to spend an inordinate amount of my personal time researching child development guidelines, speaking with therapists, speaking with other people so that I'm able to pass that insight along to my clients in terms of their making decisions, how they interact and communicate with their children, at what point for me, as a lawyer to recommend that they get a child therapist or psychologist involved, all of those kinds of things. But that the lawyer really has a care and concern for your children and going through the process. 

Annie Allen: [00:17:37] Yep. Definitely. 

Mandee Pingel: [00:17:38] I think another really important key here is that people understand and ask about what the attorney's communication style is. So, when I have clients that come to me and tell me that they're unhappy with their lawyer and they want to switch lawyers, the number one thing that I hear is that they are unhappy with a lack of communication or the information that they are getting from their lawyer. So, understanding how their lawyer is going to address and deal with things in their case. I tell people that you're probably not hiring a good lawyer if they're not really busy and hard to get ahold of. And so, every lawyer should have policies and procedures in their office for how clients can reach them, both in an emergency situation or circumstance as well as just when they need some resources, some help, some information. And so, lawyers should be able to communicate right at the beginning what that is. I also think that it's important for people to understand how their lawyer is going to handle things such as temporary hearings or court events, or court conferences. So, some lawyers have a philosophy of, you know, kind of, I'm going to wing this, and I'll just show up. I'll listen to what the judge has to say, and I'll give them my input. Other lawyers are going to say that they want to be organized. They want to speak with the client in advance. They want to maybe have some research prepared or other things, not to say that there's a right or wrong approach in terms of how lawyers do that. But it is important that the client finds someone that dovetails and matches their approach. So, if they're a type of person and they like to be organized and prepared and know what to expect and understand what's going to be coming sort of down the pike, then they're not going to do well with a lawyer who has more of a wing it philosophy.

Annie Allen: [00:19:40] Yeah, for sure.

Mandee Pingel: [00:19:42] I remind clients that your lawyer is there to solve your legal problems. So, lawyers aren't there to solve all of their problems in life. They shouldn't use their lawyer as a friend or a therapist. Not only will they end up costing themselves more in attorney's fees than they would otherwise need to, but they'll also be taking their lawyer away from sort of completing the important business of getting their divorce, you know, wrapped up and finalized. So again, I think a lawyer that is ethical, they will point that out to a client in the initial consultation and help them understand some steps or mechanisms for keeping their costs down and how they have control or the ability to have some influence upon that. 

Annie Allen: [00:21:36] Yeah. And it's really just a piece of education, honestly, because you've got to make sure they understand what your role is in the divorce process. I'm assuming as a lawyer, because I know that I have to do that with, with clients, with coaching and, you know, obviously the lawyer is usually, for most people, the first thing they think of when they think about starting a divorce process, right. Because it's a legal process, but there are so many different parts to the divorce, including, you know, the real estate and the financial and the insurance and the credit. And I mean, there are so many different things. And I think I was so glad to hear another person that I interviewed very recently say, I just want you to know I'm a former lawyer. And my first recommendation to anybody that I know going through a divorce is to call a coach before you call a lawyer. And it's great advice because the selection of the attorney is such an important part of it. And most people are doing it blindly. They don't understand everything. They need to know how could they, and most people going through a divorce, have never done it before. So, there's so much to consider when you're thinking about that and, and keeping each professional in the proper place in your divorce proceedings is incredibly stress-relieving for one thing and just easier for everyone and keeps you more credible and more. On top of things, you have less of that stress where you're calling and saying, "Hey, I don't understand what's going on. When is this going to happen? What's going to happen here" because you've got all, you've got your team. Right? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:23:19] Absolutely. And that's, I mean, such an important point about your important role. And I think the other thing that I would second in terms of, you know, you saying what's going to happen next and what are the steps? I think another important aspect the attorneys should be able to articulate, even at that initial meeting or consultation, is that they have a plan for the client, with the case and steps that they're able to clearly articulate in terms of the client understanding what the steps are, what the plan is for their case and what they can expect. So, I tell my clients that it's stress-reducing to know that you have a plan of action. And so, for me, if I have to meet with my accountant or get other information, if I know that my accountant has a plan to solve whatever my problem may be, then I worry less about it than if I know that my accountant knows that I have a problem and I have no idea or understanding about what the steps are or how that problem is going to be solved. Um, again, I can't stress enough. If you meet with a lawyer who cannot listen to the issues and you feel like he hasn't genuinely listened and heard you and immediately give you a general outcome or list of options to pursue those, as well as the risk and benefit of those options, you probably need to keep looking for a better fit. So again, just generally feeling like they listen, but also that they have steps and strategies to be able to help you, I really think is key to finding a great fit for a lawyer. 

Annie Allen: [00:24:57] For sure. I totally agree.

Mandee Pingel: [00:24:59] Another thing that people will ask about or say is that they want to find someone who is, they'll use words like a bulldog or a shark or out for blood. And what I tell people is you want to find someone who is not afraid to try cases. I try cases several a month. I'm not afraid of the courtroom. I tell clients I went to law school. It's cool to be in the courtroom. And yet, a lot of successful outcomes and resolutions come through my alternative dispute resolution skills and knowledge and ability. So, you don't necessarily want someone that says, yes, I'm a bulldog, or I'm a shark, or I'm out for blood because you don't want someone that is going to litigate every issue and wants to overly litigate it when there's an opportunity to look for a resolution or even a partial opportunity to settle some of the issues. This is really important. And I'm passionate about it because, in most family law situations where children are involved, the parents are going to be required to have a long-term relationship with one another. And so, they can either spend a lot of the next years of their children's lives, making each other miserable, or they can start even in going through the divorce process and trying to look for resolutions, compromises solutions, and learning to be good co-parents with one another. When negotiations break down, or people come to difficult issues, people need a lawyer that is going to be able to help them come up with unique solutions, not a lawyer who is just going to say, "Okay, let's fold, let's go to court or let's go to trial." So again, someone not afraid to go to trial because if you have a lawyer, and certainly, I've had opposing counsel who I know have a reputation for being afraid of going to trial. And when that happens, I definitely feel that I have a superior bargaining power over them for my client because I know that my end result can be to say, okay, we'll have to take this to trial. And knowing that they definitely don't want to go to trial. I know that I'm more likely to be able to back them down into agreeing or making concessions for my client. So, you certainly don't want someone that's a bulldog or unnecessarily aggressive, but you also don't want someone that's afraid of going to court or taking things to trial when that needs to happen. 

Annie Allen: [00:27:33] Could I ask you a question about that? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:27:35] Absolutely. 

Annie Allen: [00:27:36] How would, you know, as somebody who doesn't know anything about divorce, what would you be looking for that would tell you that this attorney is a shark or a bulldog? or just somebody who's going to try to get you to a courtroom, whether you need to be or not.

Mandee Pingel: [00:27:50] So I'm a big believer of being direct. You could ask them directly. Do you consider yourself a bulldog or a shark and see what their answer is? I think some attorneys, they feel like they want to just tell a client what they want to hear. So, they'll assume that if a client is saying, do you consider yourself a bulldog or a shark? They'll say yes because they want to be what they perceive that client wants or needs. I think another option is to simply ask them how do they feel about trying cases? How do they feel about, you know, taking a case to trial? And so hopefully, an attorney is able, to be honest, enough to say, "Oh, I really don't want to do that. I never want to do that. I want to avoid that at all costs," which again, I'm not sure is a great fit in many circumstances, or maybe they'll say "I love going to trial, and I want to go to trial as much as possible. And as often as possible," and again, I'm not sure that's a great fit or decision-making process for people. So, I think just feeling out their philosophy in terms of trying cases and what their desires or goals for some kind of effort at alternative dispute resolution is as well. 

Annie Allen: [00:29:05] Yeah. And would you say there's any definitive difference between a bulldog or a shark? And here's why I'm asking because I was in my own divorce, definitely the underdog. And when I had to fire my first attorney and find a new attorney, I took someone on a recommendation that the person that was making the recommendation referred to as a bulldog and I didn't take it as she's going to be aggressive and you know, make things worse than they need to be. I just took it to mean that she was going to be fiercely protective of me. And when I think about a shark, I think about something very different. I think about somebody who was like my ex's attorney, who is just aggressive and angry and tries to spur up aggression and anger and drag it out and make, you know, the attorney who's built as high as possible. So that's how I interpret them. But what would you say about that? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:30:04] Absolutely. Again, I think that a lot of it has to do with the style of the lawyer, what their beliefs are.  I agree with you that I tend to think of a shark as kind of looking for a drop of blood in the water, at which point they're going to attack. Now, some people in family law would view a bulldog as somebody who's going to sort of sink their teeth in and not let go. So certainly, heard that terminology. I agree that the concept of a bulldog can also mean that they're going to protect you. They're not going to back down or be afraid. They're hopefully going to sort of quote, stay in their own yard, but protect their yard fiercely when they need to. So that does not necessarily have to be negative terminology. I think it probably is important for clients to maybe be able to articulate and maybe even spend a little bit of time writing down before they meet with any lawyers what traits or characteristics, or qualities that they want in their advocate. And so, some people would say, Oh, I want someone that's going to be a bulldog and is going to dig their teeth into something and not let go. I want them to be sort of, you know, unwavering in their support or in their protection of me. I tend to think of kind of the shark as being unnecessarily aggressive, sort of ripping their prey to shreds, so to speak. And when you have a family situation with two parents that have to work with one another in the long haul, ripping your prey or opposing party to shreds is not going to leave the family in a successful posture to move forward.

Annie Allen: [00:31:50] Yeah, for sure. And the thing to think about if the idea of getting a shark appeals to you is that it may sound really good because of the anger and hostility that's going on with your current marital situation. But the truth of it is, it is going to cost you more in the end 99% of the time. 

Mandee Pingel: [00:32:09] Absolutely. And to my final word of wisdom on all this, we talked about what kind of questions you ask or how you get there? I think another great question is to simply say if my case does have to go to trial, what will that process be? Do you have steps? How will that work? I've had clients that have come to me, and they're upset because the night before trial, their lawyer reached out to them the first time to say, "Hey, we have a trial in the morning, and we need to start talking about what exhibits you want me to bring, or what you want me to do?" In our office, I tell people we kind of back out of the child dates. So, we set sort of checkpoints, if you will, 60 days and 30 days and 15 days and a week before. And then in the days leading up where we accomplished certain things that have to happen related to child preps. So again, finding out from your lawyer, what their steps are, what their processes, if they can't articulate sort of a firm policy or process to getting those cases prepared, then that's probably a good sign that they really don't have an adequate process or a policy about actually preparing for trial and in my book, I think that's going to cause the client a lot of unnecessary stress. When you know you're going to trial to present your disputed or disagreed issues to a judge and allow them to make all of the decisions about your family and your life going forward. That's a lot of stress. That's a lot of worry that you're putting in someone's hands, and you need to feel confident that your advocate is on your side, on your page, and that they're going to be prepared. To basically have the judge make a decision about what's to come for the rest of your life? 

Annie Allen: [00:33:58] Yeah, for sure. Okay. Let's talk money. It's tempting to just hire the cheapest hourly rate or the least retainer that you can. Right.  What are cautions would you offer for that? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:34:10] So certainly to ask the lawyer about their hourly fee, what their retainer, their advanced fee deposit is? I don't think that everybody necessarily thinks through well the ramifications of that. So, if you hire a lawyer with a $2,000 advanced fee deposit or retainer, but their hourly rate is $400 an hour, then you've only bought five hours of their time. And unless your case is remarkable, probably the lawyer isn't going to be able to complete the case in five hours of time, which means all you've really done is to put an initial deposit down, and then they're going to be almost immediately in very short order asking you to post additional money.  I think a better strategy is to look at their hourly rate, have them explain to you why their retainers are tied to the likelier anticipated work that is going to go on in the case. I think another really important component or consideration of costs is whether they have support staff. So, if they have qualified and exemplary support staff, that is going to be a huge, major component in keeping the costs down in your case. My paralegal, for example, has been at my office for 15 years, and I joke with clients, and I say, she's so knowledgeable so experienced that it's like, they're getting a second lawyer. Obviously, she doesn't have a legal education. She doesn't have a law degree. But she's been around the cases and the process for so long that they're paying her half of my hourly rate, but they're probably getting much more for their money than half of my hourly rate, just in terms of her knowledge and experience. I think another great question to ask a lawyer is what kind of expenses that they charge for so that clients can understand what that is and what that looks like, what, you know, things do they anticipate in terms of adding costs to their case. And then finally, I think it's a really great, great question to ask a lawyer, what policies or plans or procedures do they have in their office to keep costs down, and can they articulate what they are? So, for example, in our office, we have client education, handouts, and other steps that we go through to try to educate clients to put together and gather information and complete work on their own outside of our office as much as possible. And so, what I tell clients is if you spend several hours putting information together in an organized way for me, and then I only have to spend a few minutes of time kind of doing the final packaging, putting it together, then that's going to save you hours and hours of time versus paying me to sit down with you and put that information together there, or prepare thoughts or put together with other information. So, I think their ability to clearly articulate what policies and procedures their office has to keep your costs down is really huge in consideration of the process. 

Annie Allen: [00:37:22] Yeah, and this would be a good place for me to mention that one of my top recommendations for my clients is a divorce notebook and a divorce file. I like to recommend just a spiral notebook that you can get super cheap at the drug store for taking notes, everything, keeping lists of questions for each professional that you deal with just really recording every single thing, all the deadlines, plotting them on a calendar, um, having a file that might be just a plastic accordion file that you can keep all the papers that you get from them and that you need to give to them and just really get organized with it because that's going to lower your costs in the end. That's really a lot of what coaching does is help the client get organized, both in their thoughts and in the documentation, that's required so that when they do have time with their attorney or a financial advisor or whoever it's more expedient, and they're able to articulate what they need and want much more quickly and clearly. Then, if they're just haphazardly trying to put stuff together. 

Mandee Pingel: [00:38:25] Absolutely. I love that. I think that is a wonderful idea. We educate clients and try to encourage them to maintain the information that our office sends them. Most attorneys, I would assume, are largely paperless at this point. The courts are largely paperless. So, we try to educate people about sort of maintaining that electronic file. You'd be amazed at how many clients ask us for information, ask us to answer questions, send emails, right. Send documentation. And then they ask us to do it on more than one occasion. And obviously, most lawyers work by the hour by some kind of either time increment or by the minute. And so, when you're asking your lawyer to repeat steps or do things over again, rather than you being organized, absolutely, you add to your costs. So, I love the idea of keeping a notebook with you, where you can write down notes and thoughts and sort of keeping yourself organized. I think that's a great idea.

Annie Allen: [00:39:28] Yeah, well, scientifically, I mean, I think they've proven that your capacity for intellectual decision-making is decreased by something like 30% during the divorce process. So, you need that kind of extra support around you where you might normally be able to remember things and make quick decisions about things. It's really quite a bit harder during the actual divorce process. Now, one thing I'm curious about is what our retainer is based on. It seems like I have been hearing from clients lately about retainers that are much higher than what I've heard before. What is going into the determination of what a retainer is? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:40:08] You know, I can't speak for every lawyer for our office.  Our retainer is based on what we feel is a reasonable number of hours to, hopefully in a cooperative situation, complete the basic steps that need to go into a divorce case process. So, my general knowledge of retainers our office isn't going to be the lowest that you'll find in the Kansas City area. And it's certainly far from the highest, but it is at a reasonable level to where we don't do what I call it like a bait and switch with the low retainers. So, some lawyers will give you a really low retainer; they'll basically open your case file and maybe prepare the initial documents and then immediately tell you that they can't do any more work until you post additional funds. Now in our office, we also have a policy where we have what we call our standard retainer, and then we also will adjust it up or down depending on what the situation calls for and what the conflict level is in the case. So, for lawyers, when you are taking on a case and entering your appearance, you are required to be involved or committed to whatever the case events are. So, if somebody comes to me and they say, "Mandee, I have an order of protection case pending, I have a divorce case I need to file, I have potential criminal charges that we're going to need to deal with." That's all going to be a lot of work that I'm going to have to get involved in on a very quick basis. And so, a lot of times, I will specifically explain to the client, this is the immediate work that I see as being necessary in your case. And so, in your case, even though this is our standard retainer, we're going to need to ask for more in your case. So again, I'm not sure if some of the clients you're consulting with have much higher than normal conflict kind of situations. And so, lawyers are increasing the retainer based on that, but in general, it should have some relationship to the lawyer's anticipation for what the costs of the case are. The amount of time investment that's likely to be necessary in the case.

Annie Allen: [00:44:08] Yeah. And on that note, I was thinking, you know, just because a retainer is like $1,500, which is probably about the cheapest that I've ever heard, doesn't mean you're going to get a divorce of $1,500. And I hope that an attorney would be very clear about that, that your retainer is not the, although you're saying it is more or less determined on an estimation of the projected costs for your case, there are just so many variables that can change over time that no one can promise that your divorce is going to be done in that amount of time or with that amount of money. And the national average for a divorce is $12,900. And I was right there at that. So, I believe that is a hundred percent true. And so that would have been like almost four times of my retainer. Um, and this was in six-month, it was a contested divorce, but it wasn't highly contested. It wasn't super high conflict. So that I think is a good average to know that, you know, if you can get it done for less than 12,000, you're doing better than most people (ha-ha). 

Mandee Pingel: [00:45:19] Absolutely. And I'll tell you, I know of a firm in the Kansas City area that will take very low retainers. So, a thousand or 1500, the problem is that they work on such an overwhelming volume that they're not able to really service the clients in the ways that they need. So, clients come to me some weeks or months later and say they have a really unhappy lawyer experience their lawyers aren't communicating. They don't know what's going on. They don't know if things have been filed. They don't know where they're at in their case process. And it's because the lawyer, once they take that money and it's not really sufficient for them to meaningfully take steps or engage in their case.  They kind of just disappear from them. And so, like I said, that was the part that I said at the beginning where people need to understand how to communicate with their lawyer and what can be expected for that communication. Because again, when people come to me and say they're unhappy, it centers, I would say 90% of the time or more on a lack of communication, the lack of responsiveness, a lack of understanding about what's happening in their case, and where they're even going to go from there.

Annie Allen: [00:46:35] Yeah, it's alarmingly common. Like it's the number one complaint of every person I work with. Whether even if they really like their attorney and feel like what, even with the lack of communication, they have a reasonable level of assurance that things are getting done, and that isn't even always the case, but the lack of communication is really a struggle. And especially with flat rate lawyers, you know, people go, "Oh, okay, great. This is going to be perfect. I know exactly what I'm going to be spending," but it isn't always the case there. They may come back and say, "you know what? I thought I could do it for this. I can't, and we're going to need this much more."

Mandee Pingel: [00:47:13] Absolutely. And the other thing that I tell people about flat rate lawyers because the concept sounds great until you realize that flat rate lawyers, once they get your initial funds or deposit every minute that they spend working on your case, speaking with you, helping you solve issues is basically a law of diminishing returns for them. They'll make the greatest amount, the greatest hourly rate, if they spend little to no time on your case. And so that becomes their goal. And so, I have taken over more cases than I can count where someone has hired a flat rate lawyer and realized that the level of service, the level of communication, responsiveness, even interest in their case simply isn't it?

Annie Allen: [00:47:58] Yeah, it truly is the saying you get what you pay for could not be more applicable than to the divorce attorney or probably any attorney. So, well, there's obviously a lot that goes into a divorce case. What all, besides the reviews and the fees and we've talked about so far, anything else that we need to consider when we think about who to hire? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:48:19] I just think a client should use all of their available information to try to make the best wisest decision that they can make. So, thinking about what the process is like for scheduling the initial appointment, if you find that process to be difficult or cantankerous, you find that you're waiting days for a response to even get an initial appointment scheduled, then that's probably a good sign of things to come. Again, do you like the person that took the information or set up the initial appointment? Um, that's probably that lawyer's support staff. And so again, in a cost-effective case, you'll work with that support staff. So, if you find that person to be rude or disrespectful, or annoyed with you, then you're probably going to experience a level of frustration and dealing or working with that lawyer's support staff. So, were they kind? Were they a good listener? Did they seem intelligent and organized? From there. I think another key to consider is the follow-up after the appointment. So, most lawyers, following that initial consultation, they're going to have a plan with you of these are the next steps, or this is what's going to happen. And so, if they tell you that in the next 24 hours, you're going to get a contract, and you'll be able to review it. If it's now 48 or 72 hours, reach out to them and find out what happened.  It may be that they misspelled your email address, or there was some other technical issue. But once you get beyond those, if you're having a difficult time getting them to follow through with the initial steps that they told you would be forthcoming, then again, probably a good sign of frustrations to come. I think another important thing is just in terms of the initial call that you make to their office, if it's returned, or if you're finding anything about that initial process, again, calling or reaching out to their office, meeting with the lawyer, and then the follow-up that happens. If after all of those steps, you still feel good and you feel like this is the person that's going to be able to help you, then I say, go with your gut. And it's probably a good indication that they're the right choice. They're a good choice for you. 

Annie Allen: [00:50:41] Yeah. And what else do we need to be prepared for with these meetings and interviews with attorneys? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:50:48] So I love your idea, Annie, of putting together a notebook, and maybe one of the first things that go into the notebook is a list of questions that they have about their particular case, their situation. Obviously, we've talked about doing your homework, reading reviews on your lawyer, things of that nature. Ask the lawyer your questions. Also, be prepared to succinctly be able to tell them sort of the main points or issues in your case. If you know that, for example, you and your spouse are going to disagree about custody, and this is your position, and this is your spouse's position. Again, that consultation is for you to get some information from them. So, you don't want to spend the first 30 minutes describing that the two of you disagree on custody issues. You want to be able to tell them in a couple of minutes succinctly; these are what I anticipate to be the issues, and so how would you be able to help solve them?  I think another great thing for, in terms of questions or being prepared, is to ask about their team.  Will you, the lawyer that you hire, be the only one working on the case? will they pass your case off to another lawyer?  Do they have paralegals that are assistants? How much contact does the lawyer anticipate that the client will be able to have with the actual lawyer? How long have the assistants worked with the lawyer? How does the lawyer feel the assistants are going to be able to help her or assist in their case process? So again, some people will tell me that once they hired their lawyer have the initial consultation, they're never even given the opportunity to speak with their lawyer. Again, they're only able to speak with the support staff, and some people feel okay with that. Other people feel frustrated by that. And so, I think understanding or asking the lawyer how their support staff supports them, how they integrate with the process, and how easily it will be for the lawyer to continue to be available to them is really an integral part of the lawyer and the client being on the same page in terms of what to expect in the process. Finally, I think in terms of being prepared, if you know that your case calls for unique situations or needs, for example, your marriage has a business that needs to be valued, you have farm equipment or farm crops that need to be valued, you have an antique car collection, you have a child with some kind of medical or special needs, and you think that the court will need to consider those special needs in awarding custody, be prepared with those unique issues and ask the lawyer directly if they've dealt with those issues and their level of confidence in being able to provide a plan of action for addressing those kinds of unique issues that your case may face them.

Annie Allen: [00:53:51] Yeah. For sure. You know, it's kind of like any relationship you think of your relationship with your attorney as that a relationship, not a dictatorship, you know, you're not the in charge. He's not in charge. You guys are going to work together, and you need to make sure that it's a good fit for everybody like you would in any relationship. So, you've hired a lawyer. Paid a retainer. You've had your case filed, but now you're having second thoughts, or you're frustrated, or there are problems that you're beginning to think you can't overcome. Now what? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:54:24] So I always tell clients when they come to me for a second opinion or, you know, to inquire, my very first piece of advice is to communicate with their lawyer, schedule a meeting I like to do in-person meetings, in those kinds of circumstances I encourage people to do them. I know some lawyers are still not fully opened back up related to COVID, but nonetheless, I mean, schedule a video meeting or an in-person meeting, sit down again, be prepared with a list of questions or concerns, and be ready to share those. So, what I tell people is don't wait until the situation feels unbearable to request that meeting, to get back on the same page, be clear and upfront at the beginning, and saying, these are my actions and expectations. This is where I want us to be in terms of our working relationship. These are my goals for the litigation, establish those goals, write them down in your notebook and be open and honest, and sharing them with your lawyer again so that if the lawyer feels that they're unattainable goals, the lawyer can sort of getting on the same page with you about that at the beginning. And then as you're going through your case, if your lawyer has indicated that your goals are reasonable and things that the lawyer should be able to accomplish, then I think if you've established those goals at the beginning, you can check back in with that lawyer to say, "Hey, remember my goals? Remember we talked about these; how do you feel that we're doing on them? What things and steps do we need to take to make sure that we're headed towards those goals? What's the timeline and your continued ongoing ability to. Being able to meet those goals?" And then from there, I think another important thing is to be open-minded to hearing your lawyer's advice. Sometimes lawyers do have to give you recommendations or input or thoughts that aren't exactly what you want to hear. So, I think you have to question yourself, am I unhappy with my lawyer because they're giving me some real advice and it's important advice for me to hear, even if it's not exactly what I wanted it to be. And so sometimes I have to tell clients things that I tell them I'm trying to help you maximize your opportunity for success even though I understand that I'm not rubber-stamping what your desires are, what you may want to do right now at this point. 

Annie Allen: [00:56:49] Yeah. 

Mandee Pingel: [00:56:50] And then the final thing I would say is if your client-lawyer relationship has broken down after you've tried all of those steps, you've sat down, you've had that meeting, then don't be afraid to make a switch. If that's what you need to do. However, if you're going to make a switch for a second time and have a new professional, you need to be that much more vigilant in making that selection because the court certainly understands that people need a change in counsel. Sometimes the counsel you picked isn't the right fit for your case, but in learning from the first experience, if you need that change in counsel, make sure that you're then picking the next person more carefully, that you're remembering or recalling what the issues and concerns were from your previous lawyer experience. And you're definitely correcting those for the next experience. What I tell clients is once you switched lawyers, one time if you have multiple switches beyond that initial switch, the courts tend to no longer think that you've accidentally picked three or four or five bad lawyers, they tend to then think that perhaps the issue with all of your concerns is that you are just a difficult client to either work with, or please. So again, I can't stress enough that if you make a switch, make that decision, that's okay. It's okay to get it wrong once, but then it's crucial and really important to get it right the second time. 

Annie Allen: [00:58:20] Yep, absolutely. I had one guest on the podcast giving her story, and she mentioned that her ex had eight lawyers. And I was like, I can't even believe they allow that, like, that's crazy (ha-ha). 

Mandee Pingel: [00:58:34] It happens. But certainly, the court goes into that situation saying, "okay, if this person has eight different lawyers who they've been unhappy with, then they're just a person that can't be pleased. They're a high conflict, probably person with some kinds of mental health issues or struggles and they simply can't be pleased" because if you are a person that has selected eight mistaken advocates, then there's something faulty with your decision-making or selection process, or ability to clearly articulate what you need to make better decisions going forward. 

Annie Allen: [00:59:11] Absolutely. So, a couple of last questions for you before we wrap up today, what is the number one most important thing for someone to know, to hire an attorney that they will love in the end? 

Mandee Pingel: [00:59:24] Feel comfortable, feel confident. If you are hiring an attorney, you're placing everything most important in the world, your financial future, your children, all of your future. You're placing it in that lawyer's hands. You have to feel confident in your selection of him or her and in working with him or her. If you are doubting or questioning your comfort level, then it's probably a good sign that it's simply not the right fit.

Annie Allen: [00:59:47] Yeah.  That's a great point of advice because it's often needed for someone because you're questioning a lot of things as you go through a divorce. Um, so what is the number one most important thing if you are unhappy with the attorney you have right now?

Mandee Pingel: [01:00:01] I advise people to get that second opinion. I often consult with people to give them a second opinion, consultation, when they're unhappy or questioning things their lawyer has said or done, or advice that they'd been given. If you find an honest lawyer, when you consult with them to get that second opinion, they will give you quality advice more often than not. When I work with people and hear the advice that their lawyer has given them, I'm able to explain to them why it's quality advice; maybe their lawyer hasn't done a great job in explaining to them the motivation behind the advice. And so, I'm able to step in and give them that second opinion and explain something from a new perspective or in a new way that maybe helps them understand. But for the cost of a consultation to get that second opinion in order to have the peace of mind that your lawyer really is giving you the right information, if that's the case and that their advice is appropriate and well-reasoned, that's well worth the cost of a consultation.

Annie Allen: [01:01:08] Yeah, for sure. You need that assurance as you go forward. And furthermore, if it's actually something you're able to say, you know what, I would be handling this area differently. If I was your attorney, you know, then that's something else that that person will really need to know. So, it's an affirming thing whether you're confirming that they should stay or that they shouldn't.

Mandee Pingel: [01:01:29] Absolutely that peace of mind is invaluable. Well, you're trying to make these important decisions and, you know, resolving issues and coming to agreements. You're not also questioning whether your advocate is giving you the right or well-reasoned advice. So, it's well worth the bit of money in the bit of time that it would take to get a second opinion from a trustworthy lawyer. If you're questioning whether your lawyer is the right fit for your case or not, then in that circumstance, if the lawyer is able to articulate concerns with the advice or the information that your other lawyer has given you, then don't be afraid, if you no longer feel comfortable and confident, to make that switch. I mean, it's something that, again, is well worth the investment. If you were otherwise going to go through the next few months of the case completion process, questioning all of the advice and information that your lawyer is giving you. 

Annie Allen: [01:02:28] Yeah. I agree. What are your closing thoughts? 

Mandee Pingel: [01:02:31] So my closing thoughts are to do your homework and research in the beginning and hopefully find the right fit from the beginning. Don't hire the first lawyer that you speak with or meet with, particularly if you're questioning your comfort level, don't be afraid to trust your gut. If you are feeling uncomfortable with your legal representation, a lawyer's advice throughout a case can make or break a settlement agreement, make or break terms that protect children, their future, your assets, your financial future, among many, many other things. And attorney, client working relationship is just that it's a relationship. It needs to feel right for both parties. If either party meaning the client or the lawyer is questioning, whether it is a productive or successful relationship, the first goal should always be to have a conversation, to try to work through those questions or concerns. A true professional should not be angry, upset, or even unhappy to have a client come to them with questions about their professional work. They should be able to stand behind it. If your lawyer is unable or unwilling to discuss these things with you and they get offended, angry, or upset, I think that's a good sign that the attorney-client working relationship has broken down somewhere along the way; the process and the stakes are too high to try to just get through your family law case and patch it together with someone that you can't really work with or cooperate with anymore. That's going to affect the rest of your life without your confidence in the advocate that you've selected. So again, try to make the right choice from the beginning. Uh, do your research, do your homework, have your questions be well-prepared. But if you decide that you're in the middle of your case and it's not going well, then make a change, make a switch. And that time, do more homework, do more research, step up your efforts so that you can make the best possible choice going forward. 

Annie Allen: [01:04:32] Yes. And one last little tip, and I know this from personal experience. If you are going to need to fire an attorney. Get an itemized bill before you make that announcement. And I cannot give any more information as to why that is a necessary thing, but if you are concerned about ethics or just how scrupulous an attorney is, you're getting really, really bad vibes from them and, or they're just taking your case in a direction that is the exact opposite of what you wanted. You should definitely make sure that you have an itemized statement that reflects what you know has happened, what emails and calls have taken place, and make sure that that bill is not being puffed up so that you are not going to get any of your retainers back if that's possible.

Mandee Pingel: [01:05:21] Absolutely. Annie. My other advice to people when they make the decision to switch counsel is to try, if at all humanly possible, to end things on a peaceful or happy note with their previous lawyer. And so, write them a nice email or note and tell them that you're appreciative of what they've done and that you're hoping that they will help her assist you in transitioning your file. I can't tell you the number of times that I've been grateful and appreciative that clients have taken my advice to heart and ended things in a peaceful, happy way. So that I'm then able to go back to that lawyer when I have questions later on in their case. And they're willing to be that resource for me; they're willing to tell me what happened at a case status conference or what happened with an email that I see in the file that I have a question on or something along those lines. So sometimes I think when people are frustrated or maybe disappointed in what their lawyer has done, they're excited to tell them off or to, you know, tell them they're fired, and they're unhappy or upset. But resist that urge for the wellbeing of your case. And simply just tell them you've decided to go in a different direction and that you appreciate the help and the effort that they've given and, you know, make arrangements to get your file from them and get any unused funds returned.

Annie Allen: [01:06:48] Yeah. Excellent advice. And this has been an excellent topic to cover today, and I thank you again for being here. Listeners, I hope you've gotten something of great value today. And if you haven't yet selected an attorney, you now know exactly how to do it. And if you have, and you're finding yourself in a bad spot now, you know what to do about that. So, thanks again for joining us. And as always, if you need help as you divorce, please reach out, email me at annie@startingoverstronger.com. I would love to personally introduce you to Mandee Pingel and until we meet again, remember there's help as you divorce and hope as you are starting over stronger.