BECOME A FAN! SOS FAN CLUB PERKS HERE: www.patreon.com/sosdivorce
D. I. Y. -- DO IT YOURSELF!? It's the least expensive yet also most difficult way to renovate your home. Did you know you can DIY your Divorce too? It is also the least expensive way to divorce, but is it also the hardest? Tune in for all the answers on this unconventional, and maybe super smart way (in some situations), to complete your divorce.
If you have any questions at all during your divorce, please email Annie@StartingOverStronger.com or visit www.StartingOverStronger.com to learn more about divorce coaching and book a complimentary discovery call while you're there.
"Can I keep the house?" Find out more about what an RCS-D REALTOR does to protect you as you make this decision. www.AtHomewithAnnie.com.
If you have ideas for topics in future episodes or to ask a question for a future ASK ME ANYTHING episode, please email Annie@StartingOverStronger.com.
Gratefully,
Annie
You matter! Please find and follow us on Facebook, Instagram and on your favorite podcast player. Your 5-star ratings and positive reviews make all the difference as the growing podcast community seeks content that will inspire, entertain and educate them in their efforts toward real life transformation. Would you take just a moment to rate and review Starting Over Stronger? Here and on any platforms where you find us. THANKS!
© SOS Divorce Survival & Recovery. Divorce Well. Live Well.
BECOME A FAN! SOS FAN CLUB PERKS HERE: www.patreon.com/sosdivorce
D. I. Y. -- DO IT YOURSELF!? It's the least expensive yet also most difficult way to renovate your home. Did you know you can DIY your Divorce too? It is also the least expensive way to divorce, but is it also the hardest? Tune in for all the answers on this unconventional, and maybe super smart way (in some situations), to complete your divorce.
If you have any questions at all during your divorce, please email Annie@StartingOverStronger.com or visit www.StartingOverStronger.com to learn more about divorce coaching and book a complimentary discovery call while you're there.
"Can I keep the house?" Find out more about what an RCS-D REALTOR does to protect you as you make this decision. www.AtHomewithAnnie.com.
If you have ideas for topics in future episodes or to ask a question for a future ASK ME ANYTHING episode, please email Annie@StartingOverStronger.com.
Gratefully,
Annie
You matter! Please find and follow us on Facebook, Instagram and on your favorite podcast player. Your 5-star ratings and positive reviews make all the difference as the growing podcast community seeks content that will inspire, entertain and educate them in their efforts toward real life transformation. Would you take just a moment to rate and review Starting Over Stronger? Here and on any platforms where you find us. THANKS!
© SOS Divorce Survival & Recovery. Divorce Well. Live Well.
DIY Divorce with Attorney, Carrie Sue Doxsee
Annie Allen: [00:00:00] Are you the 'Do It Yourself' (DIY) type? You like working around the house and making home improvements without cost, and the hassle of bringing in contractors... doesn't necessarily translate to a 'Do It Yourself' approach for divorce, but it might be a good start. Today's guest is family law attorney Carrie Doxsee, and Carrie is a DIY divorce expert. And so, we're going to sit down today and talk about who's a good candidate, who's not, and how exactly the whole DIY divorce process works. So, if you're considering saving the time and hassle of hiring attorneys for your divorce, stay tuned.
Announcer: [00:00:52] Welcome to the Starting Over Stronger show where you'll find help and hope for your divorce survival and recovery. Divorce well, live well.
Annie Allen: [00:01:10] Hello, and welcome back to the Starting Over Stronger Divorce Survival & Recovery show. Today, we are going to be talking about DIY divorce. Have you heard of it? Do it yourselfers you may take an interest in something like this. It seems like a great way to save some money and maybe some hassle. And so today, I have invited family law attorney Carrie Sue Doxsee on the show, and she is the expert on DIY divorce in my mind. So, we're going to just talk about everything there is to talk about it so you can decide if it would be a good fit for you or not. Welcome to the show, Carrie. Thanks so much for joining us.
Carrie Doxsee: [00:01:52] It's nice to be here. Thanks, Annie.
Annie Allen: [00:01:53] Yeah. And so, if you would just tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
Carrie Doxsee: [00:01:58] Well, I'm a practicing attorney in Kansas City, Missouri, mostly family law, and one of the things that's become a passion for me is helping people that really just don't have the money to hire an attorney. So that's kind of how the DIY divorce has come about. We have so many cases in our jurisdiction, and people that are trying to do it themselves aren't quite doing it correctly. So, the judge is always giving them another invitation to come back and try it again. So, the idea is just to try to provide some free resources out there to people who have that super simple, easy, uncontested divorce just to help them walk through the process. Thus, they don't spend thousands of dollars on an attorney when they don't need to.
Annie Allen: [00:02:53] Very good. Well, you know, as with anything, I think a quick Google search online could show you a lot about DIY divorce. And I suppose, just as with most things, this approach could be good, or it could be bad. Where would you say is the best and or worst place to get direction if you are considering a DIY divorce and you want to go out to the internet and explore it?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:03:15] Well, I think most States in the USA, they actually have free forms out there. Sometimes you can find them on your County court website, but most of the States have provided a website. So, for instance, I'm in Missouri, and we have a website that's for 'pro se litigant.' It's a fancy way of saying a DIY person. So, you can get those forms out there, and that's about all they tell you. So that's kind of, I think the hard part is that you might be able to find some free forms, but there's just absolutely nothing that helps you walk through the process because courts are kind of fickle people. Sometimes they want things stapled, and sometimes they want extra copies. I mean, there are so many different things that are above and beyond the things Annie, that you deal with, with your clients. Like how do you separate the cell phones and how do you, you know, there's just so many different things in a divorce that just a few simple things of the internet are not really going to tell them.
Annie Allen: [00:04:21] True. That's a great point. So, I know that you have a website, and I've been on it before. So, tell us about that.
Carrie Doxsee: [00:04:22] Well, what my website is going to help people do is that; one, it introduces any of the concepts. So, for instance, if you own a house before you got married, what happens? How do you deal with that? If you have children, unfortunately, real estate and children equals no DIY for you. You will have to get an attorney to do a little bit of your case.
Annie Allen: [00:04:56] Okay.
Carrie Doxsee: [00:04:57] So in our legal world, we call that limited scope. So, it's kind of like going to McDonald's, and instead of ordering the whole value meal, you're just ordering the quarter pounder with cheese. So, you're only paying for the things that you need. So, it really helps you know, how much of this can I do on my own? What does the attorney need to do? Do I qualify? It'll help you walk through all of those questions because most people have that simple divorce. They really don't need an attorney to do the whole thing.
What I find is quite interesting in the court. I'll be sitting in the court and watching people that are trying to do this on their own, and that they're getting up on the stand and the judge looks at them, and they don't know what to do. Like the judge expects that they kind of know what they're supposed to do, but they don't have any clue. So, you know Annie, I just feel so bad for them because their faces get red and they get all hot, and you can just tell they're freaking out. They absolutely don't know what to do. So, you know, having something that's going to help you walk through all the steps and make sure you did it correctly because a lot of people don't fill out the paperwork correctly. And then you just sit up there in front of the judge, and the judge tells you everything you did wrong and asks you to come back again. So, I think that is also another reason why I wanted to help people here in Missouri is because it's kind of painful to watch.
Annie Allen: [00:06:31] I bet you want to help them (Ha-Ha).
Carrie Doxsee: [00:06:34] And I'm sure your clients absolutely don't want to experience that for sure. Divorce is hard enough. Right?
Annie Allen: [00:06:44] Yeah. Right. And you don't want to delay it any more than necessary. So, to not have something that you very easily could have had, if you only knew you needed it, is probably very painful for everybody.
Carrie Doxsee: [00:06:55] Yeah. It's not rocket science if you have just a little tiny help. Right? So that's kind of the important thing, that just knowing how to fill those things out. It tells you to list all your property, but it doesn't tell you, you know, do I have to list every spoon and fork? Because most people will just list a few things, and the court has to make a decision about whether the division's fair, and they can't do that if you have not given them enough information. So, you know, a great example is what are the categories like? You just need to say, "Hey, I have clothing, I have jewelry. I have furniture. I have electronics. I have tools. I have miscellaneous kitchen items. We have large appliances", like whatever that is. It's not that hard, but you just need to let the court know what you actually own if that makes sense.
Annie Allen: [00:07:52] Totally.
Carrie Doxsee: [00:07:52] Because if there is something you don't list, then technically, it's not divided. So, it's not hard. And I think Annie, like you, obviously go through all of these things with your clients, trying to decide what is the stuff that they need to keep to be able to move forward with their lives and what are things that probably are just better to let go of, right. Just walk away and start clean.
Annie Allen: [00:08:17] Yeah. Right. Well, and you know, you make a good point. And I think that what's at the heart of that is what's at the heart of why a divorce coach can be so valuable during the divorce. It's because you're just not thinking clearly. It's such an emotional time, and you're just flooded emotionally due to which you are just not processing things like you would normally because of that emotion level. And so, you know, the things that you maybe would think of otherwise are just slipping your mind. In fact, I have a guide that I have, that's a PDF I send to my clients or anybody that asks for it called the 'Nest Guide,' which is a preparation guide for divorce. It's like a three-page document that lists everything that you need to think of. I add to it occasionally when I come up with something else that I haven't thought of, but it's just a pretty comprehensive list of all the things that you need to think about that you may or may not be thinking about. So, it's important to have something like that because it is a hard process. And then again, the actual process of dissolving a marriage isn't really that complicated. It's just that there are so many details.
Carrie Doxsee: [00:09:26] Correct. And I think you really hit it on the head. I was divorced back in 2004, and I was a mess. And I sometimes think for me... my husband had cheated on me, and I just was a mess. And I had two little children and so much to do. And anytime you have a lot on your plate, it's really easy to just miss little things. That's why resources are so helpful because you really can't miss anything. There are just so many little tiny details and things to keep track of and trying to get things done. And, you know, you're looking at what your immediate needs are and what your needs are for the future. And sometimes you only can look at," what do I need right this minute?". Sometimes what I find with my law office legal clients is that they just want so desperately to be done that they don't care, and then they look back and they regret some of the decisions that they made.
Annie Allen: [00:10:37] Oh, yeah.
Carrie Doxsee: [00:10:38] So you would be really helpful. And like, that's what I do in my practice... is go, "okay, it's my job to kind of be the bad guy a little bit, and I'll do whatever you want, but I want to make sure that you 100% understand what you're giving up and if you're good with that, then I'm fine with it. But I really want you to think about it because being done is great, but living on a budget is not easy."
Annie Allen: [00:11:02] Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, when we think about DIY divorce, it seems like one of those things that just inherently could be a great idea for some people and a really bad idea for others. What would you say about who's a good candidate for it?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:11:15] Well, again, if you guys are working together and there's no real conflict, then there are a lot of ways that you can do DIY. Like I said, you can get a little bit of extra help. So, for instance, if you have real estate, like that's definitely something that I know that you're coaching your people on, and there's a lot more to it than just saying, "Hey, we're going to sell the house and split it 50, 50". Well, the court doesn't really let you do that. You know, that's a really good example where you may need a little bit of legal advice with that. If we're just setting and everybody keeps their own stuff, then DIY works great. So crazy enough, here in Kansas City, we have a really big company called 'Cerner,' and those Cerner people are out there DIYing their divorce like crazy because everybody has enough money to go around. Everybody just keeps their own stuff. So, if there is no conflict most of the time, you can work those things out, even if you have children. Like a lot of times, people just know exactly what they want, and they can go in there without needing a complicated parenting plan. All they need is the attorney to just do their judgment. So, they absolutely can DIY. So, it's really more about, are you guys on the same page or maybe your spouse has just gone, you know, because you've probably seen that too, where you've been separated a really long time, and they're not going to participate. So, that's the perfect fit as well for DIY. I have clients all the time that just didn't get divorced for four years, five years. 10 years because they just didn't have enough money to hire an attorney. That's what I don't want you to have to do. I want you to be able to go live your life. We don't need you to stay married because you don't have several thousand for an attorney. Right?
Annie Allen: [00:13:15] Yeah, that sounds like a perfect fit. What if they think they're going to be able to do that, and they get into it, and then they realize there are points of contention or conflict that they can't resolve on their own? What happens then?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:13:29] Well, certainly... there's two levels to that. Okay. So, there are things that maybe you can't figure out because the truth is you don't need the tools. So, like Annie, I know that you have lots of ideas that you can help people like resolve things, but they just didn't know about those options. And the same can be true with mediation. That's a really good resource for a lot of people. So, a mediator is an attorney or a counselor who's been trained to sit down with people going through a divorce, and they can help them walk through those problems. So, there could be some creative solutions to some of the issues that people might face. They just don't have the experience to know about that because, Hey, this is their first divorce. They don't know anything about it, so sometimes that's really good help. Like you're coaching, I'm sure it also would be a really good resource. Sometimes people just need to have some other ideas, but at the end of the day, if it's going to be a trial situation, you're probably going to have to get an attorney. You don't want to go in there with your spouse having an attorney, and you don't have one. At least the good thing about some of the DIY concepts is you can at least use some of those forms and at least have things on file that protect you. So, what that means is if you don't file an answer, i.e., if your spouse has filed the case and you don't file an answer, then they basically can march into court, get whatever they want, and you can't even open your mouth. So, you have to protect yourself, and you have to file an answer with the court. You can use one of those DIY forms to do that, but at the same time, you're going to be in a trial against an attorney. And yeah, you probably want, if, at all possible, you want to get an attorney.
Annie Allen: [00:17:04] Yeah. And that actually kind of leads right into what was going to be my next question, which is what if the two don't agree? And there are really two questions here. One, what if they don't agree on the concept of DIY? And then two, what if they don't even agree on the divorce? And one is just ignoring everything that the other is doing.
Carrie Doxsee: [00:17:27] Yeah, that happens all the time. At the end of the day, when you're in those situations, you're going to have to get an attorney. And I think what's really hard in our society is an attorney has to... they earn their money by the time that they spend on your case. Right? So, it is really, really difficult for a lot of people. There are organizations really out there to help people that don't have any money. Now there is legal aid, but the problem with legal aid and this is nationwide; they don't have the money to help everyone. The only divorce cases that they normally handle is if there is just a tremendous amount of domestic violence. So outside of that, you're really just kind of left on your own. You just don't have a choice but to get an attorney. And I think that's kind of the hard part about a lot of divorces because often one of the parties has a lot more money than the other. Maybe that other party or person was a stay-at-home spouse, which is not always women anymore; there's a lot of stay-at-home husbands out there too, taking care of their kids. So, if you have those kinds of things, the hard part is really finding an attorney who's maybe willing to take their fee at the end of the case, but that doesn't happen very often.
Annie Allen: [00:18:54] Yeah. You know you brought up a good point. Domestic violence is a big factor in divorce. I just actually ran the numbers recently, and 60% of my divorce coaching clients right now have a protective order. So, it's common. How does that factor into DIY?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:19:11] Well, I think what is interesting about the order protection world is, and this is something that you kind of need to understand a little bit about your particular jurisdiction, where you're in. So, the reason I say that is because these are two separate courts. Basically, you have a civil court that takes care of all of those order protection cases. And then you have the family law court that takes care of the divorce. And sometimes, if there's any abuse against a child, then the juvenile court will take care of those cases. So, the problem is which judge and which order is the most important and which one is the highest on the 'Totem Pole'? Right? So, for instance, in my county recently, within about the last few years, they pretty much aren't doing a lot in the domestic violence world if you already have a divorce filed, which seems kind of crazy to me, right? I mean, the whole thing is you want to make sure that that person is protected and they will do that, but what you can get accomplished sometimes is not always the same from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. So that's something I think your listener would have to know a little bit more about their particular jurisdiction to know what's going on. But the truth is sometimes that domestic order will say, " who gets possession of the residence." So that is always going to happen. Sometimes they will say, "who has to pay certain bills" sometimes, that you can say, "what the parenting schedule is going to be for right now." And sometimes, you can even say, "what the child support is going to be." So that order protection world can do a lot of things, it just normally doesn't. So again, you can hire an attorney just to do the order of protection, which is way less expensive. So sometimes, if you could get on that, that might really fix some of the issues and the problems on the divorce side cause there's already an existing order that's going to take precedence. And so that person isn't going to fight over anything, which can be a preemptive way to like lower your attorney fees for sure.
Annie Allen: [00:21:31] Okay. Good to know. Is there any in-between DIY divorce and hiring an attorney? Like what if they want to fill out all the papers and negotiate everything on their own. And then could they bring it to an attorney to look it over?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:21:51] That's where the attorneys just aren't going to say," Sure. I'll be happy to look over your stuff." Here's the problem; most attorneys do free consultations, but they're not going to tell you whether you filled out everything correctly. Again, that's kind of why you need something in the middle, and that's why I created my course because you really need to have that help. I think most people want that. An attorney is just not going to make any money off of that. So, they're not going to do that. So, part of my course, too, is really being able to get on kind of a monthly zoom call where people can ask questions, see if they really have everything filled out. If there's anything that just didn't make sense to them, something like that... we can fix those problems. Certainly, if they run into some issues that they didn't expect, we can kind of help walk them through that. So, I think what sometimes will come up is that you know, maybe they can't find their spouse, they're having problems with service, so there are definitely some things that they can do without having to totally go hire an attorney. So, I help them with that.
Annie Allen: [00:23:04] Yeah. So, your course or your zoom calls, all of that I assume can be found on your website, which is diymissouridivorce.com, and so does somebody have to be in Missouri to get a benefit from that?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:23:21] At this point, it's really directed towards Missouri. You know, honestly, I do feel like all of the concepts of divorce are in there. So, I think for anybody, it would be super helpful. I am trying to create kind of a separate course that is going to be more about understanding the concepts and making better decisions, whether that's in conjunction with using your attorney or just trying to do that yourself. But for right now, we're just kind of geared towards Missouri because I want them to see here's the form, and I specifically show you how to fill that out. These are the things that you want to do. These are the things that you need... because they're just a little confusing. So, it does kind of help to actually see them and make sure you don't make mistakes on those. So, at the moment, we're just kind of geared towards helping people in Missouri. And once we feel like that is really dialed in, I'll kind of extend that out.
Annie Allen: [00:24:23] Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Well, so I want to just kind of run step-by-step through the process for that person who maybe isn't in Missouri, and this would be something a little bit more general just from my own very rudimentary research online. It just shows that you just aren't going to be picking up some papers. There are probably going to be rules that you have to follow with regard to that. And then, number two, you're going to file those papers. Number three, you're going to pay the fees. Number four, you're going to serve those papers. Number five, you're going to file proof of service. And number six, you're going to allow time for a response, which is generally, it says around 21 days, and then the court is going to set hearings and may actually even require mediation. Lastly, after the divorce is granted, you're going to prepare and file a decree. Does that sound about right? Do you think I missed anything major?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:25:23] Nope, you're in pretty good shape. There's a couple of things I think are important to know. Like, so, for instance, when you're just talking about filing it and paying your fees, like one super helpful tip I think for people is to call the court clerk before you go. It's just like going to the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles). You want to make sure that you have everything that you need. There are times when a particular jurisdiction, the county, or wherever you live, they may have another form they want you to file. So, for instance, in Kansas City, we have three main counties here. We have Jackson, Clay, and Platte, and honestly, they all have one little form that's different. Okay. So, it's helpful to kind of call, make sure that you have everything. And then they'll also tell you how you can pay. A lot of courts now won't accept cash. So that's kind of a good thing to know. So, you may want to double-check that. Some of them will allow you to use a credit card. Some just are still doing checks. It depends on how big your county is. So just those little things, call the clerk and double-check; they will absolutely help you because they want you to be able to walk in and get it done quickly. Okay. So that's super helpful. And then on service, most of the time, that's going to be done by the sheriff, and the sheriff actually will file the return of service for you.
Okay. If you have someone that has a job where maybe they're not sitting at their desk all day long, you may want to get a special process server because sometimes it's just hard for the sheriff to catch your spouse at home on the weekend. Right? There are some little things like that that you can probably get some help on. Sometimes when you talk to the County clerk, they can help with that as well.
Annie Allen: [00:27:20] Do they have the ability to like, kind of schedule it, or for you to give any kind of information about when is most likely to be able to reach them?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:27:27] Oh, a hundred percent. So, a lot of times what they'll do is they'll get some information from you, and they'll normally find out like what their normal work hours are, but what really is helpful, I think, again, another helpful tip is go in with a list of all of that information that you can give them, that's all typed out, ready to go. Anything that you can do to make the clerk's life easier you want to do. And certainly again, you want to give yourself the best chance for the sheriff to get it the first time around because if they don't, then there are all these other technical things that you have to file. So, the more information you provide on the front end, the better.
Annie Allen: [00:28:10] Yeah. And probably another service fee if they have to go out again. Right?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:28:13] Yep. Yeah, absolutely.
Annie Allen: [00:28:16] And while we're on the subject, you mentioned work and home, this is kind of an opinion thing, but I'm wondering where you stand on this. I always advise my clients to try to do it at home. If that's the least inconspicuous place, what are your thoughts on that?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:28:32] From my attorney hat, I'll just tell you, it's just about getting it done. Is it embarrassing for someone to be served at work? Yes, it is. That's true. But at the same time, it really depends on your relationship because sometimes people just need a moment to calm down. Knowing papers are coming and getting them in your hand are two very different things. And it's the same thing for the person filing the divorce. Like when you come in to sign all your paperwork, you know, you can just tell it's a lot for somebody, right? And so, you know, if you're going to be home and all of that sometimes works okay, if you guys are getting along and everybody's on the same page that, yeah, everybody wants to get divorced, then you're probably fine. If it's going to be a surprise, I will serve them at work.
Annie Allen: [00:29:28] Yeah. Well, and you might as well if you're already doing a DIY divorce, then you have some level of ability to communicate with your spouse. So, I would think this would be a conversation that you would have in advance to say, "where do you want to receive it?"
Carrie Doxsee: [00:29:44] Right. Well, one thing that you'll find, especially in Missouri, the paperwork that's online almost makes it seem like you have to have your spouse file all the paperwork with you. And that is not true. So, I haven't looked at a lot of other States, but you don't have to have that happen. But so many people, they don't even have to have service if they really, truly are doing it together. Filing everything together then, and both of you don't have to go down and actually file the paperwork. But if everybody's filling things out and signing off on it and turning it in, you don't even have to have service. So, there are ways to waive; filing an answer at the same time as you file your divorce is one of those ways.
Annie Allen: [00:30:30] Okay. Well, and that brings me to my next point, which was, I have a list of six basic forms that will be included, and this may not be an exhaustive list, but it includes the dissolution of marriage petition, the response to the petition, the child support worksheet, the parenting plan, the proof of service, and then the consent or default decree, anything that you see left out there?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:30:55] Yeah, certainly. In Missouri, you do have a couple of other things that you have to have. So, the court has a form that is kind of statistical, and it's called a 'Filing Information Sheet.' So, it has all contact information for the parties and the names of the children, social security numbers, dates of birth, things like that. There's also a certificate of dissolution that is a form that actually gets turned into the state so that they can register the fact that you are divorced, right? Just like you had a marriage certificate, you have a disillusion certificate, so to speak. So, you definitely do have to have those as well. And like I said, some of these courts will have a little extra something, and it normally has to do with the kids.
Annie Allen: [00:31:50] Okay. Other potential factors that were listed, and I'm curious as I didn't get a lot of information on these, but just if there's anything that a person would need to know about how would residency be affected or how would it affect the process?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:32:02] That's a really great question. So, every court, every state requires somebody to live there for a certain period of time. So, in Missouri, someone has to have lived here for the last 90 days. Right? So, in fact, I had somebody call the other day, and they've only lived here for three weeks. I'm like, "Hmm, Nope. That doesn't work." So that's for the parties, but children need to live in the state for six months in order for the court to retain jurisdiction in most states. Now there's a couple that don't do that. Like Louisiana and someone else, I can't think. But most states are under United States Children's Jurisdictional act, which requires six months before a state has jurisdiction. So, there is a certain amount of time that you have to live there. But again, it'll vary for people. So even if you don't live in the state and your spouse files and lives in the state, you could still file in that state. So let me give a really good example here in Kansas City; we have Kansas City, Kansas, and Kansas City, Missouri. So very close over the border. So sometimes we have people that are living in Kansas, and the reason they file in Missouri is because their spouse has a house there. So, they have real estate in Missouri, not real estate in Kansas. So, it just kind of is easier to file in Missouri, or it could be that you live in Kansas and the children live with your spouse in Missouri; hence you would have to file where the children live. So that's kind of where those things come in, and that's super important, obviously, because you want to file it in the right court. Certainly, you have some times that neither one of those are at play. We don't have a house. We don't have kids. Somebody files in Kansas, and somebody files in Missouri, and it's usually whoever serves their spouse first, and that's where the court will hear the case. If that makes sense.
Annie Allen: [00:34:14] Yeah, absolutely. How would fault or no-fault factor into a DIY divorce?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:34:18] Well, for the most part, you're not going to have any issue about the fault. You can if you think the spouse is not going to participate. But for the most part, you aren't going to have too many of those kinds of issues, I would guess. I'm sure there are times when you might. But it's all about the division of assets. If your spouse doesn't really file anything as long as what you're proposing is fair, the court's going to grant that. Now I have seen lately that some of the judges on these DIY guys are a little fussy about that. If it looks like you're taking all of the property real estate, your retirement account, and you're really not leaving anything to your spouse, you might have some issues and problems. But that's again where sometimes if you just have this little tip. For example, let's take your retirement account. If you worked for that employer before you got married, right. And you worked for that employer after you got married. Part of that is marital property and part of its non-marital property. So, if you help the court understand that, "Hey, I've only been married for three years. That's why all my retirement should go to me." Then the court understands and agrees, saying, "Hey, that's probably fair.". So those are just those little tiny things that can be roadblocks but don't need to be.
Annie Allen: [00:37:08] Yeah, and what about if somebody is wanting to submit a detailed complaint of some sort? Is that going to be considered?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:37:15] Well, at the end of the day, even an attorney is probably going to file a petition that says basically nothing in it. It's just the jurisdictional legal mumbo jumbo that is required. So yes, you can do that, but you really don't need to. Most of that is going to come through your testimony at the hearing and not necessarily in your complaint. Now, certainly, there are some exceptions. If there are issues about child custody, that would be a really good example. If you were asking for a lot of the medical bills to be set aside for the spouse because they were all bills that were incurred from the abuse (domestic violence cases) of the marriage, then that absolutely makes sense. You don't have to necessarily do that in the petition. You can just do that as part of your testimony.
Annie Allen: [00:38:09] Okay. Well, you know, I know that the average US divorce costs somewhere between $12k and $15k, depending on who you ask. What would you say the average DIY divorce might be more like?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:38:22] Well, most of the time, you're a hundred percent going to be under a thousand dollars, and that's only if you have to have an attorney do some things for you. So, here's kind of a rough idea; our market here in our area is probably between about $400 and $750 if an attorney has to do some of the judgments and maybe a more detailed parenting plan and ' form 14' child support calculation if you didn't really do that in your DIY. So, I think from that perspective, cost-wise, that's about where you're going to run. Certainly, for me, my course, probably the smallest amount is $267, and it does go up a little bit depending upon what you need. So, if you need some specialized things on real estate or children or both like we can do that. So, I have kind of a varying degree depending upon what you really need. So again, even with all of that, all in, there's no reason that you can't get that done for under a thousand dollars and sometimes under $500. So again, like when you don't have a lot to fight, over $500 is a lot of money, you know what I mean? And you shouldn't have to pay four or $5,000 to an attorney and you, and sometimes you don't have to. I mean, certainly, there are things called 'flat fees,' and that's where an attorney just says, "Hey, I'm going to charge you one price to do the whole thing." So, if you're nervous about the whole DIY process, "Hey, you can go in, and you can hire an attorney for a smaller amount of money, knowing that it's going to be uncontested and they just do it all for you.". So, you always do have that option because it's not contested, and you just want to have somebody do it because you don't want the hassle. So, you know, there are certainly those kinds of options for you. There's always the option, if you aren't exactly on the same page, of trying mediation first. And that's another good way to try to keep down your fees because if you're coming into my office and you tell me that you have an agreement, now I can charge a flat fee. But if you're telling me that you're not a hundred percent in agreement now, maybe I need to have you pay hourly. So sometimes you use that mediation which is also an inexpensive way to kind of finalize your agreement. You can do that at any stage before or after you file.
Annie Allen: [00:40:49] Okay. And what might that run?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:40:51] Usually, probably somewhere in, from $150 to $350 per person. And that's usually kind of for a two-hour session. That's usually kind of the range that you can expect to pay for something like that. And, you know, you can always come back for an additional session if you need it. And then they usually just base it on the amount of time that you need.
Annie Allen: [00:41:15] Yeah. Well, you know, it seems like kind of a no-brainer. Why wouldn't people want to do this? They can save $12,000 to $15,000. But who maybe is not a good candidate and really should not go this direction?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:41:29] You really aren't going to be able to do that if you have a spouse that is not interested in being fair. It's one thing when you guys can't get on the same page, because to be super honest, most divorcing people have different needs. Somebody's probably staying in the house. Somebody is moving out. And so, what they need is completely different. The person that's moving out probably needs cash. They need funds that they have access to that they can use right away. Whereas the person staying in the house may really want to hold onto their retirement account. So, if you really are not on the same page, DIY is not the way to go. And honestly, you're not going to save any money at all by trying to do a portion of it and then having your attorney come back later in the case and try to help you out. Like, it just doesn't work that way. So that's definitely not the right fit. If you have, you know, any kind of conflict, if you are not on the same page, you really need an attorney. And the good news about that, like, I want your listeners some hope that the good news to that is if you really have a good attorney, they can shorten this process for you most of the time. Now, not always because we can't control the other party. But most of the time, if you have someone who comes in and is just like. "That's my retirement account. She shouldn't get any of it." Well, that's not the way the law works. And once they start having somebody really pound that into their head, that that's not what the judge is going to do, then you should be able to get in there and settle the case. So don't lose hope just because your spouse is difficult. It doesn't mean it's going to be horrible all the way through it.
Annie Allen: [00:43:23] Yeah, you're right. It definitely shifts sometimes at some point where it seems impossible in the beginning, and then somebody finally comes around to the reality of the situation, and things smooth out a little bit from thereon.
Carrie Doxsee: [00:43:37] Yeah. That definitely happens, or at times somebody gets tired of the process or tired of paying their attorney (Ha-Ha). So that's okay. It's all good. Right?
Annie Allen: [00:43:46] Yeah. Well, I would say, you know, with regard to, who's not a great candidate, I expected center is usually around the top four issues, which are custody, asset and debt division, support, and then the house. I expect it in most cases; one of those reasons, if not more than one, is the reason why a DIY divorce doesn't work or just isn't a good option.
Carrie Doxsee: [00:44:07] Right. Well, you know, it depends. So, let's just say it's child support. Well, you know, I'm not so sure that makes you not a good fit for DIY because anywhere there is a formula and the courts have a certain way, they're going to do something. So again, you can, a hundred percent do go the DIY direction. So, like a good example is, in Missouri, we have 'March Mediation', M A R C H, just like you're marching. And they do mediation on a sliding scale or potentially for free, depending upon the assets of the parties. So, your mediator is basically just going to tell this person, "Hey, this is really what the court's going to do. They will run the form 14 child support calculation for you." So, if you think that you have somebody who just doesn't want to pay any child support, I wouldn't let that totally keep you out of the DIY loop. Because again, I think once people understand what the judge is going to do, they're going to pretty much say, "okay," they're not going to like it, but they're not going to fight over it.
Annie Allen: [00:45:13] Right. And to be more specific, I said support, but I was referring to both child and spousal support. So, will that change things around?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:45:24] If you want spousal support, DIY is not going to happen unless your spouse is willing to pay. And honestly, the best chance to get an agreement on spousal support is right at the beginning of the case. So, you know, that's when maybe hitting up mediation before you even file or right at the very beginning, then you might be able to use that option. Because what I find is that a lot of times, if a spouse really knows they're going to have to pay something, they just really don't know what that is. They're willing to be reasonable. They just need help, and you need help knowing what's likely for you to be able to receive, so hit up that mediation option. And then DIY, once you guys have an agreement. So, you can say like Missouri does have a marital settlement agreement form, too, a DIY form. So, you absolutely can do that, but also, sometimes, your mediator will draft that for you for an additional charge. So that's an option as well.
Annie Allen: [00:46:25] Okay. So really, it kind of comes down to DIY divorce is more or less the best option if you two are pretty decisive and in agreement on everything. Whereas if there's any indecision or conflict about major issues, it's probably not going to work as well.
Carrie Doxsee: [00:46:47] That's absolutely true for sure. Again, like I find a lot in my mediation practice, it's that it's not always that the parties are at odds, but sometimes it's just they need a little help coming up with a solution. You have so many people working these weird hours, and they did that on purpose because they couldn't afford childcare. So how do you do parent time with that? So, like, that's a really good example where you have a lot of parents that are willing to work together, but they just need that little bit of help to figure out what that looks like. But again, if everybody's on the same page, you don't have anything that's weird, then yeah, a hundred percent that DIY is perfect for you. And there's no reason for you to go out there and spend a bunch of money if you're on the same page.
Annie Allen: [00:47:41] Right. Exactly. I find that a lot of times, the house is the biggest issue because obviously there's only one of them and only one person is going to get it, or nobody is getting it. And so, I think with that being the largest asset to divide, what happens to the asset division varies so much depending on the circumstances they're in. In many cases, you know, there's going to be a need for an appraisal or home valuation of some sort for the court to determine what to do with that. Obviously, if one party has the ability to buy one out, they may give it to them, but if neither party has that ability though or even to be able to financially manage the home on their sole income, then it is probably going to require to be sold. And, you know, working together on the sale and the listing and the selection of a real estate agent is sometimes more than people want to deal with. So that's one of the services that I provide as an RCSD (Representative Capacity Signature Disclosure) realtor to just be able to come alongside them and help them to navigate that whole decision where one of them may or may not keep it or buy something new. But there's a lot that goes into that decision. There are tons of data points that oftentimes already been considered, like, you know, checking the house for liens and maybe doing a pre-divorce inspection to make sure that the party that's going to keep the house is actually aware of any potential issues that are going to arise after the divorce is final which maybe they might not be able to handle on their sole income. So, these are big decisions that are being made. And we want to be sure that they're fully informed decisions.
Carrie Doxsee: [00:49:22] Yeah. And I would just add to that, especially in the climate that we're in right now, you know, refinancing sometimes it's an option, and sometimes it's not, and it's very hard for a spouse to move on when they still have that mortgage sitting on their credit. They're trying to go get into an apartment, but their credit score, because of the debt to credit ratio, is terrible; they are unable to get into an apartment. So, there are definitely a lot of issues, but I think, you know, like what you can really help with too, that I see all the time is that it's not that the parties don't want to be reasonable, but they don't trust each other. Right. So, and it could just be because one person normally did those types of decisions as part of how their marriage worked. Right. The other one didn't. So, you know, having someone like you that can do that is awesome because it builds trust in the parties. They know, "Hey, this is a real number. This isn't a pie-in-the-sky number. You know, this is what we need to do." And then again, there's a question of, "okay, well, we have all these repairs; who's going to pay for them, and how are we going to deal with that?" So those are things you can simply and easily work out for them, but they probably can't do on their own because they just don't know what to do.
Annie Allen: [00:50:44] Absolutely. Can you think of any major issues revolving around that that would come into play, specifically because a DIY divorce is the direction that's been chosen?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:50:54] Well, I would say that you know, when you have that issue, it's all about valuation, right? And certainly, trying to figure out what the terms are going to look like. That's where you're going to have to have an attorney, right? Because at least in Missouri, you have to have your legal description in your judgment, that's the main reason. But certainly, how long a party has to refinance plays into things pretty majorly. That would be the only other thing that we didn't really talk about, or you didn't really mention, maybe. But certainly, knowing all of those things, you can have that within your marital settlement agreement. I would tell you that what I've seen as a trend with real estate is that people say, "Hey, we know what we're going to do. And if we're selling this house, we're going to sell it before we file." So, you wouldn't have to hire an attorney to do your judgment because there's no longer any real estate. So that again is another little thing, a little tip and a lot of things that people have been doing, because honestly, they're already separated. They don't have any issues. They're just kind of waiting for the house step to get done. Then there's no surprise on the back end. Because certainly, you know, if things come up in the inspection, you have to say, "how much money is that spouse getting? They're getting $30,000." Well, that might be good. Or it might be bad if the house sells for more than that, then $30,000 might've not worked out so well for one of those spouses. If there was a bunch of repairs or the house didn't sell for what they thought, then another spouse gets hurt. So, the DIYer, I think, is much better off if they're going to sell before, just go ahead and get that done.
Annie Allen: [00:52:40] Anything else that you can think of that we haven't covered about DIY divorce?
Carrie Doxsee: [00:52:44] Nope. I think you've really asked some excellent questions, and I think I would, again, just encourage people that it's not rocket science. It's definitely something that you can do. And it's not that hard. You just need a little tiny bit of help. But yeah, I mean, absolutely having a divorce coach on the front end can help you get through those decisions so easily, then maybe that DIY is a much better fit for you because you have someone who's kind of been in your corner. It maybe not legal advice, but it's just that practical advice that you really needed that would be really helpful. And certainly, you can always have a paid consultation with an attorney too. Like if you just say, "Hey, we've got this weird thing on this house, and we don't know what to do, and you know, how can we do this easily?" you know, an attorney is always going to take all day long for a paid consultation with you. So just those little tiny things, I think you can actually save a whole lot of money, definitely a whole lot of craziness and stress, and everything that goes along with the divorce. So, let's get rid of that if we can, right?
Annie Allen: [00:53:59] Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you again for being here and sharing your thoughts and experiences with us. I hope to listeners that this has been an informative conversation that has been helpful on your journey today. If you are the DIY type and you want to explore this more, I would be happy to make a personal introduction for you to our guest attorney today, Carrie Sue Doxsee. And you can email me at annie@startingoverstronger.com. If you would like that, or if you have any questions you want to know what a divorce coach is, or find out more about how that works, or if you need real estate consultation for your divorce, from an RCSD real estate expert in divorce, or if you just want to explore anything that we've talked about here today, you have questions that we didn't get answered for you. I'd be happy to get answers for you on that. So, until we meet again, remember you do not have to do divorce alone, even if you're DIYing it. There is help as you divorce and hope as you are starting over stronger.