52 💼 Say NO to Divorce Shame [Dr. Anne Morgan, Thrive Once More]

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Are you facing divorce and racked with shame? Is this your second, third or fourth divorce? I bet you have been thinking, "is it me?" Today, Dr. Anne Morgan of Thrive Once More and ThriveTV is going to open her heart and her life to talk about how to deal with the shame monster and stare him down once and for all. Whether this is your first or your fifth divorce, you will be able to relate to today's topic of conversation.

If you have any questions at all during your divorce, please email Annie@StartingOverStronger.com or visit www.StartingOverStronger.com to learn more about divorce coaching and book a complimentary discovery call while you're there.

"Can I keep the house?" Find out more about what an RCS-D REALTOR does to protect you as you make this decision. www.AtHomewithAnnie.com.

If you have ideas for topics in future episodes or to ask a question for a future ASK ME ANYTHING episode, please email Annie@StartingOverStronger.com. 

Gratefully,
Annie
 
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Transcript

Say NO to Divorce Shame [Dr. Anne Morgan]

Annie Allen: [00:00:00] Divorce me once. Shame on you. Divorced me twice. Shame on me. Are you feeling the shame of multiple divorces? Or maybe you've only gone through one or you're in the middle of your first one and you are still dealing with shame. This is a very common emotion and a very important thing to work through.

Today's conversation is with Dr. Anne Morgan. She is a medical doctor and CEO and founder of 'Thrive Once More'. We had an incredible conversation about shame, and I'm excited to share it with you today because I don't care how many times you've gone through a divorce but there's shame. And it's important for your healing and for your ability to make better decisions in the future that you work through it but which is hard work, but very rewarding. So stay tuned. We're going to dive in.

Announcer: [00:01:13] Welcome to this Starting Over Stronger show where you'll find help and hope for your divorce survival and recovery. Divorce well, live well. 

Annie Allen: [00:01:32] Thank you, Dr. Anne Morgan, for being here. I would love it. If you could just start by sharing with us a little bit of your story. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:01:39] Well, wonderful. Well, thank you, Annie, for having me. I always get a kick out of another Anne or Annie. Annie is my nickname from my family. So my dad calls me Annie and a few other people do, but I just love, love knowing other Annie's.

So I'm just pleased to be here. I hope that I can offer some of the things that I've learned in my journey and I'm looking forward to doing this. 

Annie Allen: [00:02:02] Awesome. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:02:03] Yeah.  The topic is multiple divorces and I've had two. It's a long story and I won't go through the whole story obviously, but just in the scaffolding of my story in relationships really started when I was young. I was dating someone that I then eventually married when I was 15. It was not a good relationship and I knew it, but I also didn't know what else was out there for me. I kind of had a little bit of,  I would say a lonely relationship with my immediate family. And so having somebody at age 15 who was really into me somehow, fed some sort of need for connection.

So there was a dysfunctional dating life with this person and it was on and off for years. And then I felt as I got older into my early twenties, I was becoming more and more confident and I was becoming better equipped to set some boundaries. So I thought I was capable of getting over that relationship. And then one night; what would we do in our early twenties? I was single and I had a good friend group. I was in medical school and I was really feeling better about life and my future. And this guy walked back into my life again which just stirred up some feelings of acceptance again. He got into my head again, and then, then shortly after I was pregnant. Then when I was pregnant, I was told I needed to get married. And so I did because I was really kind of a people pleaser. And to be honest, I took myself out of the equation of whether or not I should get married. I kind of just did it because I honestly believed it was the right thing to do.

I knew looking back that marriage was not going to last, but I was sure going to try because I am a hard worker and that's the way I do things. I work really hard at making things, right. That marriage really just lasted overall just two years, but we were separated most of those two years. And so I was quick to understand that it was a toxic relationship and that I deserved it differently.

And so I was able to develop the confidence to be out of that really abusive relationship, kind of emotionally abusive for sure and physically abusive at times. I felt empowered to be single. I was a single mother at that time and I was a new doctor and in residency, and really just was looking for anything opposite of what I just experienced.

I found what I was looking for. So, my second marriage happened fairly quickly because I was sure that he was the opposite of the person that I was married to first and that I was going to do just fine, and that it was going to be a successful relationship. And I think that it was successful in a lot of ways. So my second marriage was in a lot of ways, very successful and even our divorce was successful.

Like it was interesting. There was not a lot of drama in my second relationship. When we went to divorce finally, after just deciding mutually that this was just done. We used just one common attorney and she said to us, "this has been the easiest divorce I've ever done. And can you all please teach a course on how to get divorced?"

Annie Allen: [00:05:28] Well, that's a good compliment. (Ha-Ha) 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:05:31] Yeah, I mean, it was great. And, and it sounds crazy, but of course, there was a lot more to unpack than just the specifics of the divorce. The divorce was technically easy. Now what I think we'd like to touch on today is the shame of multiple failed relationships.

Certainly, there's a lot of shame that I carried in failing yet again in marriage. And so that was different. I was able to separate that from my feelings about my second marriage ending. So I was able to do it better, at least as far as on the surface it looked like all good, but it really affected me.

So that divorce happened almost eight years ago now. So, it's been a journey since then. And one that I learned a lot about. I don't know what else you'd like to know right now. 

Annie Allen: [00:06:22] Well, we're going to break this down, so there's a lot of different parts to this. I mean, you make a great point when you say that, just because the divorce process is easy, it doesn't mean the healing and recovery from it are easy. Those are two very different things. So I think that's something that we're going to talk about and then we'll get into the shame part even more.

But the truth is when we were trying to decide on a subject for today we talked about a lot of different things and the psychology of the shame around being divorced more than once is what we arrived at. But the truth is, as I really kind of did some research and thought more about it, I think the shame is the same, whether you were divorced once or twice or three times or more. Maybe it gets worse as those numbers go up. But I think that in some ways it's there for everyone that goes through even one divorce. And so I don't want anybody listening that's not divorced two or more times to think they're not going to get something out of this today.

I think what I wanted to start with is kind of trying to get at the heart of where shame comes from. And I wondered what your thoughts are on, just your own shame that you struggled with because of your divorces. What do you think was at the root of that? 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:07:39] Absolutely. That's a great question and a great point too.

So absolutely. There's a shame that happens when we fail it. Right. Whether it be marriage or parenting or our careers, whatever we deal with our failures can turn to shame if we allow that. So, my shame around the idea of being divorced multiple times, or even having failed in love multiple times, compounds a little bit, but it's sort of powerful at each point, right? 

 So, yeah I agree with you. I really believe that the shame that I have allowed myself to feel, over failing in this arena, as a lot of other things do that we struggle with as adults, but probably comes from childhood. Trial to trauma, just not ever feeling accepted or truly seen.

Growing up I felt lonely even in my own immediate family. And I think, you mentioned this earlier. I think that has a deep-seated part in the shame that I've carried for many years. 

Annie Allen: [00:08:48] I would definitely agree with that in my own case as well. And I see that in my clients. One thing that you have said a few times that is so common, I hear it all the time. It's the F-word. 'Marriage failed' that big 'fail'. I have talked about this a few times. I've had a guest on the show that talked about a book. I wish I knew what book it came from. I would be glad to give them credit, but there is a book or a teacher, speaker who has talked about this and maybe has some kind of rights to this intellectual property.

But it is just an amazing thought that I think everybody should know. And it is that 'relationships don't fail. They are completed'. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:09:30] I love that. 

Annie Allen: [00:09:32] And when you really think about it, I mean, life is a journey and we are growing and changing all the time so it is actually true. And another thing that I've heard, I've seen it go around on social media, 'Never apologize for outgrowing someone who had the opportunity to grow with you.'. Every time I say it and think it and see it, it just gets me. Cause it's one thing if you just throw away a marriage. But I don't think a lot of people do that. I think a lot of people, especially women that I know anyway, tried really hard to make it work way longer than they should have in a lot of cases.

And when you get to that point where you just are done trying, it's not a failure, it's a completion. That person and that relationship have served their full purpose in your life. And it is time for something new now. And I think that alone takes away a lot of the shame when you are able to really digest that for what it's worth. What are your thoughts on that? 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:10:30] Very true. I think, that really resonates with me and what it made me kind of remember and think about is that the longer I've been out of these, I'll say completed now not failed completed relationships, what I recognize, I guess the shame that I continued to carry even after I was truly kind of over the unique shame to each of those relationships was that what's wrong with me that I'm not successful in this arena. And what I started to understand was, that what I felt was not right about my relationships was my ability to have the self-confidence to choose correctly.

And so, I dropped that blame for anyone, for not being the person that I wanted them to be. And I started accepting the idea that I actually hadn't waited for the person that I know would have been better for me.

Annie Allen: [00:11:28] I love that. That is so good. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:11:31] Yeah. I recognize that is how I will then be successful with my next relationship. If I truly gain the confidence, the awareness of what I absolutely will not compromise for. I will design my relationship the way that I know I can be successful with it. So, that was a powerful moment. When I started to recognize that I could let go of the shame of those relationships and I could let go of the idea that they just weren't the right person for me when I recognize that actually I just chose the wrong person for me because I believe I deserve something better. That brought me a lot of awareness and that work in kind of confidence, has been life-changing for me. 

Annie Allen: [00:12:19] Yeah. And maybe you chose the wrong person or maybe you chose exactly who you needed to teach you what you needed to learn so that you could complete that relationship and then move on to something that's more fulfilling in your future. I think there are reasons why we make the choices we do. We do the best we can with the information and abilities and knowledge that we have at any given time. And we can't expect to make great decisions with information that we only now have, but we didn't have then. Right? 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:12:50] Absolutely. And as you say that, I kind of think about the idea of regret. I really don't have regret about those relationships because I do value them for the way they've made me grow. And then I have two beautiful daughters. One from each relationship that I would never turn back. Because I've learned so much. 

Annie Allen: [00:13:09] I think you used the word powerful or power or some form of the word, and it's so appropriate that you would have mentioned that because that is something that I thought of when you were talking that I talk about with all of my clients that, 'your power lies in your willingness to stop looking at the other person and to start looking at you. That's not to assign you to blame, it's actually the exact opposite. It's for you to just realize that there isn't any reason to place blame in one court or the other, but just to acknowledge the reality of what exists and to look at what you have the ability to change, which is only you.

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:13:53] Yes. 

Annie Allen: [00:13:54] And that is where all your power lies. So, it's a very empowering and powerful place to be. And to just decide someday finally, to just go like, "you know what, I don't care what he did or she did. I'm done thinking about that, worrying about that. He or she can be whoever they are and whoever they want to be, but here's who I want to be. And here's what I want to do. And here's the kind of relationship that I want to have. And if I can't create that here, I'll go somewhere else where I can create it." So, everybody knows romantic relationships are challenging. So, it should come as no surprise that divorce is inevitable in some situations.

The thing that I wonder is why does divorce comes with such regret and shame when we are the people that are actually willing to admit that there's a problem. Or to not tolerate that kind of dysfunction rather than stay in it for the kids or for financial reasons or for whatever reason, somebody is rationalizing; as to why they're staying in a bad marriage.

It's weird to me. Because to me, I don't want anybody to have shame and to me, there's more shame in staying stuck doing something that's harmful to you, to your spouse, to your kids, and to anyone around you than to just go, "you know what? I can see this for what it is and I'm going to do something different now."

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:15:26] Definitely. I agree with that. It's kind of my modus operandi to be out of one relationship and quickly into another one. And I recently ended a seven-year relationship that I started right after I was divorced the second time. And in a lot of ways, it was who I thought I was going to end up with. We were very connected, but when I recognize that there were some damage happening and that staying was at a cost of things like my self-esteem. It really awakened me to realize that thankfully we weren't married. And I think that there's a reason that we never got married.

It was because there were red flags. But I was willing to stay. I wanted to stick it out. Cause I really felt that there was some value in this relationship. I certainly felt like I was very connected to this person, but when I started to realize that staying was more detrimental than leaving. That's when I made that decision. Looking back I feel like I made that decision in both of my marriages as well because again, I'm kind of a hard worker. I work hard at things. And so in both of my marriages, I really felt like I had exhausted the work that I could do. And then that's when I woke up and realised this is causing more harm to my kids, to myself, to my partner. It wasn't just about me. It was really about recognizing that like you suggested earlier, the relationship was completed and that there's more growth that can happen apart than what can happen together. So yeah, I love the way you phrase that. 

Annie Allen: [00:18:23] And, not to beat a dead horse, but I have to say that it's really important I think here to recognize that shame is corrosive. It's deadly, it's dysfunctional. It's just not good. And we've talked about that from several different angles and that goes for whether you're still stuck in a bad marriage and struggling with whether or not, and how to get out of it, or whether you've left or been left once or twice or three times or more. I don't even know the word I want to capture. It's just such a terrible place to be. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:18:55] It's really a very powerful emotion. And it kind of pervades everything else you think. It starts with that kind of negative self-talk reel that goes on in our brain. So when we're feeling shame, it pervades everything else we do throughout the day.

Once I've recognized that I had a lot of shame in my reel that I was thinking all the time was I recognize that every time I drop something, like whether it be I'm writing and I dropped my pen or I'm in the kitchen and I drop spoon on the floor. I was actually angry at myself thinking, why am I so clumsy?

I should be less clumsy. I should be more graceful. And I had to recognize that my shame about lots of things, but particularly about relationships was really affecting every minute of my day. I recognize that I just never felt joy when I was feeling shame in everything. 

Annie Allen: [00:19:53] Do you know Brene Brown?

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:19:55] Oh, my gosh,

Annie Allen: [00:19:56] you knew we weren't going to have this conversation without talking about Brene Brown. (Ha-Ha)

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:20:03] You know, it's so funny Annie. Just a few minutes ago when we were talking about reflecting on our part in things? I actually had written a Brene Brown quote. Now I am thinking if I can use this, I'll use it. So I'm going to say it and she says, "loving ourselves through the process of owning our story is the bravest thing we will ever do." And that is absolutely the journey I've taken in the last couple of years. And it's been so empowering. It's changed my life. 

Annie Allen: [00:20:35] I don't know if you could hear it in my voice. I got a little giddy there for just a second. I have a little bit of a girl crush on Brene Brown and kind of want to be her, but you know, for now, I'll just talk about her and your work. And for those listening, who don't know who I'm talking about her name is Brene Brown and she calls herself a ‘shame researcher’. I don't have a clue what her credentials are. I don't care. I've read her books and she's as credentialed as I need. Because I know that she knows shame. And pretty much everything I know about shame comes from her. I started by reading 'Daring Greatly' and then followed it pretty quickly with 'Rising Strong'. And I've now read everything she's written. But it truly altered the course of my life for the better. And that's not an exaggeration I learned from her that shame is prevalent in our society and maybe the whole world. I don't know if she was referring to the world or America, but she just talks about how it's in our schools, it's in our workplaces, it's in our homes and it's being used as a teaching tool. As a parenting tool. I mean, there are just so many ways that it's just such a part of our culture and it's to our detriment. I mean, it just should not be, and I don't think anyone recognizes it for the danger and the detriment that it is and goes on doing it.

I think it's something that happens without our awareness. And then when we come to understand it, we do differently. Like so many things, in life. But yeah I've read everything she's written. I highly recommend her for anyone who's struggling with shame because she has such a unique take on all of it. And it's so backed with unique research and just solid brain and social research. What have you read of hers and what are your thoughts on her work? 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:22:28] Oh, absolutely. I have a girl crush too on Brene Brown. So I discovered podcasting probably three years ago or so. My ex-husband used to always try to get me to listen to podcasts. He'd send me a podcast and I'm like, "no, I like my music. I don't need a podcast." So when I discovered Brene's podcast a few years ago. Well actually her latest one, what is it? 

Annie Allen: [00:22:59] What is it called, that she just started during the pandemic? 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:23:01] I don't know. But what she was able to do for me was to break that cycle of shame and make me recognize it. One thing that she says is that shame cannot survive being spoken, can not survive empathy. So when you start to bring to light the places, when you feel shame and particularly when you share it with someone and they can empathize with you, then that shame disappears.

Now it's not an instantaneous thing. It's a thing that continues to require work and listening to your gut so that when you start to feel it, you recognize it. But you can stop it. She has been a super-powerful person for me. 

Annie Allen: [00:23:50] Yeah. What you're talking about I have a perfect example for it. I was talking with one of my coaching clients just yesterday, actually.

And we got onto the subject and I had read something recently that really just hit me in a totally different way. And it was talking about how when you're going through a divorce, it's wise to keep your circle small and to not share certainly intimate details, but maybe even the fact that you are going through a divorce with very many people. Because the truth is it's not most people's business and it doesn't affect anything and they don't need to know.

But for those in the small circle that you feel safe and comfortable, sometimes it still happens where somebody says something stupid and insensitive. Especially when there's a situation with a toxic relationship or abuse. And it just floors me sometimes the stories, including the one I heard yesterday, that somebody said to somebody who literally put shame on her for leaving a physically abusive relationship. And this person has been through a divorce and I'm like, I can't wrap my head around being a divorced person and putting shame on somebody for going through a divorce for any reason, let alone leaving an abusive situation. But people do it. And whether they mean to or not, whether they have any idea of the power of their words, it is crippling sometimes.

And that was what happened to my client. Thankfully I just read this recently. And it said, if you really want to offset shame, here's how you approach it. First of all, tell as few people as possible because most people don't need to know. And two when you have that conversation with people address all of the feelings that you're feeling about your divorce, in what you share with them across the spectrum, by saying something like I'm getting a divorce, and here's why. And currently, I'm really struggling with plethora of emotions. And I run the gamut from being excited and happy and relieved to feeling deep shame and really struggling with this decision. And I just wanted you to know that it's happening and I appreciate your support or whatever it is else you think that you want to say, you've put it out there.

So you kind of offset the shame that they might put on you by acknowledging that you're already feeling it.  And I thought that is so powerful. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:26:14] I like the idea of not feeling like you have to share with everyone what's happening. I, I did that both times. Private about what I was going through. And for one I'd already made my decision.

I didn't need a lot of advice. Like it was something that I didn't want to hear someone else's opinion about. Cause I was fairly confident in my decisions, but it also isn't, it's a private, a private thing and you're right to protect yourself a little bit. I think there's a very fine line between being vulnerable.

I think vulnerability is amazing. It's a tool and it's a strength as opposed to a weakness, but you do have to choose your audience wisely. So, I think protecting that information and knowing that you're in a safe place when you share it is very important. 

Annie Allen: [00:26:56] Yeah. And being prepared, even if you think it's a safe place because sometimes that's what happens, you think is somebody that is going to be safe. And then they say something that just totally catches you off guard and hurts. Maybe even more so because you thought they were going to be a safe place. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:27:14] Absolutely. 

Annie Allen: [00:27:14] So you gotta be cautious. But what's interesting is when we think of the marital relationship is compared with our friendships over the years. It's interesting how we put marriage at this pinnacle that is supposed to be perfect and last a lifetime when there's really no other relationship in our lives that does that without fail. We don't really beat ourselves up too much, or certainly not near as much when a friendship fades away or we lose touch with someone over the years, or even when a family rift gets divided for years at a time sometimes. But it's just weird to me and I'm curious what you think is the reason why that primary romantic relationship holds such a place of significance to us because I think what that does is create more of an arena for shame. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:28:01] I agree. And absolutely it has been my kind of the last arena to tackle. I'm not saying that the work I've done in the recent past has made me an evolved person but it requires ongoing work.

But when I recognize that I was feeling shame in all aspects of my life and that I just, I've never felt like a very confident person. I started doing work on feeling more confident. I started thinking differently about my career.  I spent years in the ER (Emergency Room) and I became a more confident ER physician.

I became a more competent and confident parent and that's hard to do because parenting is another place where we often find a lot of shame. I felt like I was really confident in my ability to be a good friend, but I honestly took many years to recognize, that I needed to concentrate on how to be successful or to choose my next relationship wisely. When I look back and think about all of the self work that I've done it wasn't by design that I put that one off until last. But I think it's because I honestly don't know. I think I just felt so much, again, shame in the ways that I had experienced relationships in the past that I just felt like it might be the hardest. But I feel like the work that I've done recently has put me in a place where I now feel like I have the tools to have the relationship that I've been looking for my entire life.

What's nice is, it puts you in a place of being excited about your culture instead of looking backward about how I've been alone for a long time, I'm a single mom etc.  You let go of that. When you let go of that shame, it puts you in a place where you can look forward to your future.

Annie Allen: [00:29:54] Sure does. 

How much do you think this has to do with maybe being rooted in family belief systems from our parents or grandparents? Like they stayed and made it work until death, even if they were miserable or being abused. Why do we think we can just walk away and start over?  I feel like there's a lot, that has to do with that somehow generationally. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:30:21] Absolutely nailed that. You don't even know what my background is, but absolutely I will say that my parents are still married and they have not had an easy road to be honest. But I appreciate the fact that they're still married, but when I was younger and I was being modeled for a  relationship, I would say probably it wasn't the healthiest relationship to be viewing as somebody who was deciding what marriage looked like.

And then part of the decision to get married, or even to stay in a marriage or even choose someone was not about choosing somebody that was right. It was just the fact that once I got married, then that was it. There was no turning back and that divorce was not really an option. So that was absolutely modeled.  

Annie Allen: [00:31:07] Yeah, same here. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:31:08] Yeah. In fact, my second divorce, my parents I imagine will listen to this at some point. (chuckles) 

Annie Allen: [00:31:15] Yeah. You always have to be careful about who is going to hear this. (Ha-Ha) 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:31:20] Yeah. But they actually know this. I'm pretty sure. My husband at the time, we were separated and he had moved to Texas to take a job and we kind of made some decisions as in this was definitely over. And most of my close friends knew. I kind of was starting to talk about it more with even people that I didn't know very well. I was over the idea that there was going to be another divorce, but I seriously didn't tell my parents for like six months. They were the very last people I told. And it took me a long time to learn to create some boundaries with, or not, maybe not boundaries, but at least not feel like I had to share everything.  So that was actually even kind of a powerful thing. By the time I told them it was pretty much done and knew that whatever they had to say, wasn't going to effect me. Kind of like we've already talked about, but they were the very last people I told and they're now over that. 

Annie Allen: [00:32:15] Well, the thing is you do learn as you go. And I think,  you know, when you need to set boundaries and just keep something close to the best and there's nothing wrong with that. For whatever reason that it happened. Also, we don't want to discount the value of a long-term marriage or a marriage that truly does last until death. The possibility that marriage can last forever is why we get married. Right? But the thing is that requires two willing parties who are able to work through any given issue, because like we've said, relationships are hard. And we want to honor the people that have put in the hard work and gotten over the humps and made it to the other side and are maybe better for it.

But what we want to do also is just to encourage people that are... we're seeing kind of a trend of what they call silver divorce, which is people that are getting divorced in their sixties and even seventies, because they're finally feeling strong enough to say, "you know, this just isn't working for me and to choose the stronger, better path that they didn't know was available or didn't think was available all those years earlier. And for whatever reason that people stay together or don't stay together, I think the thing to acknowledge is that there shouldn't be shame regardless because we all do what we do for the reasons that we hold value in at that time.

And so I think that's the important point that we're trying to make today. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:33:48] Absolutely. And I really honestly, at some point in my life, when I thought about my parents' marriage, I felt like, oh, I can do this better. Like I knew that if I had been in their shoes, that I wouldn't have stayed, however, when I look at them now, and I think they're happier than they've ever been, and they've been married 52 years this year. I look at that and I find inspiration in it because I think that if I ever get married again, I will use them for inspiration because a relationship is definitely hard even successful ones. However compatible, loving relationship you have, you're still going to have some hard pieces to that. And so I absolutely respect my parents' decision to stay together and I find beauty in it. It just wasn't my path. But It's lovely to be able to look at their relationship now and recognize all the strengths in it as compared to when I used to look at the weaknesses. 

Annie Allen: [00:36:02] Well, I think there's a lot of pieces to this, but one interesting consideration is something that we've actually talked about on the show recently, and that is the way that we put language around things. And we've kind of even talked about that already today with the use of the word completion rather than failure when we talk about marriage. But there's a lot of language things as we go through the divorce that actually makes the shame worse. And I think it's things like breaking up and failed marriage and broken home and all of these terms that just imply something negative. And so one way that we can offset some shame in our life is to choose different words around the things that we talk about with our friends and our family and with ourselves and our own minds, just to think of things differently. Maybe a broken home is one that stays married and continues to pass on dysfunctional traits to the children. What if the ending of an abusive or toxic relationship isn't a break at all, maybe it's a healing. So it's really just important to be careful of the words that we use around things. And I'm curious what your thoughts are on them? 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:37:16] Oh, I totally agree. And honestly, I love that you kept me accountable when you said, Hey, I heard you use the word failure already a couple of times. And that just shows the power of those words that we use because I'm not sure that I would have recognized that I was using it.

Annie Allen: [00:37:29] Yeah, no, most people don't. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:37:31] You get so ingrained. And even though my emotional tie to the word failure, probably isn't near as strong as it used to be. It's still the way I describe what I've been through, but I love the idea of changing the language too.

Annie Allen: [00:37:47] Absolutely. Yeah. Do you think there are any special considerations for having gone through more than one divorce that would change anything of what we've talked about? 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:37:55] Well, that's a good question. I don't know if we want to jump ahead to kind of what my life looks like now, but my first thought when you asked me that question was- yes.

I think that special consideration for me, in particular, is that shame can creep back sometimes, even though I am a much more confident person, I am a much better-equipped person to handle my future, whether it be in whatever arena, whether it's friends, parenting, career, romantic relationships, I feel like I've done a lot of great work recently to get to the person where I'm. I feel I'm confident and comfortable in my own skin, which is a great place to be. However,  when I ended this last long-term relationship back in November, I thought, the reason I ended this was because I'm a more confident person I can get right back out there. And I am ready to design my life. I think there's wonderful work there. I was really envisioning what I wanted for my future in all arenas, but also in my romantic relationships. And I wasn't afraid of getting back out there. I had decided that I was going to start dating and if dating didn't go well with one person, then I was ready to move on. And so I did that and I was feeling really empowered by going on a date or two with someone. And if it didn't work out, then it didn't mean the end of the world. And so it was a wonderful place to be. Actually recently I've been dating somebody for the last couple of months. It's been almost four months now. It's been amazing because I really have prayed about it. And I have envisioned exactly what I wanted out of a relationship and all of a sudden I kind of had it. And so I was on cloud nine for probably two and a half months or three months maybe. And then shame crept back in even though nothing had changed in this relationship. This man is amazing and I feel very blessed, continue to feel blessed to be in a relationship with him, whether it ends in marriage or not. I mean that doesn't even enter my equation. I am just really enjoying finding someone who feels like my person. Just in the last couple of weeks, I started having some thoughts, some anxiety about the idea that who am I, I have failed at three.

And again, there's the word. It just came up just like that. I have completed in a painful way, three long-term relationships in my life. And I started to have a lot of self-doubt about whether or not I was someone who deserved a good relationship. And so what multiple attempts at love have taught me, was to pay attention to my gut.

So what I have done is as soon as that started creeping in, even though nothing else has changed. I started paying attention to it quickly, I haven't done formal counseling with a therapist, since my decisions surrounding my first divorce. So 20 plus years ago, but this week I sought out a counselor because I knew that this relationship was going really well. And I was about to self-sabotage it if I started to let that thought creep in. So I don't know if that makes sense, but what I've discovered with these relationships is that I absolutely don't want to go down that road again. And there's no reason why this one needs to head that direction. It's not me.

It's I need to pay attention to what's going on in my brain. 

Annie Allen: [00:41:27] I love that you said and  I wrote it down. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:41:30] Oh, really? 

Annie Allen: [00:41:31] "What multiple attempts at love have taught me." I mean, think about that. That is so powerful. That's exactly what we're talking about. Stop shaming yourself. It's taught you something.

You're a different and stronger and smarter person because of what multiple attempts at love have taught you. That's awesome. And that's incredible. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:41:50] I feel I'm better equipped. And as soon as I named what I was kind of feeling in the back of my mind, I felt so empowered after that. First, I sought out a relationship counselor and it was amazing. And as soon as I got off my call with her, I was like, "oh yeah. Okay. I got this, I got this. There's no reason to start to question." It was amazing. So I feel like my experience has taught me how to pay attention to myself a little bit better.  

I think if we're confident people, we don't, and I don't mean confident on the surface. I don't mean like braggadocious kind of; to the world you look confident, but inside you're not confident. 

Someone recently told me, they asked me what is the root word of confidence? And I thought for a minute and I was like, oh gosh, this feels like a 

Annie Allen: [00:42:51] English test that's gone bad. (Ha-Ha) 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:42:54] Yeah like, okay I want to make sure I pick right. But I recognized pretty quickly that the word confident's root is confide. 

Annie Allen: [00:43:01] Right. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:43:02] So she suggested, and I thought this was really powerful. Confidence is confiding in yourself and paying attention to that gut feeling or that inner voice that I have squelched for so long.

And so I have become confident in a lot of different arenas. But I don't know that I've felt confident in my ability to be in a romantic relationship. And so knowing that if I'm starting to listen to my gut, I was almost proud of myself in the last couple of weeks in recognizing, "Oh, there's something here that needs to be paid attention to," because I think that a less confident version of myself would have just squelched that and continued to let it kind of smolder and then come out in other ways. I liked that image of that confidence is confining in yourself. 

Annie Allen: [00:43:52] I like that. That's awesome.  You said something earlier about red flags and I think that this kind of sums up what you're describing now that you feel more confident about your ability to see those red flags perhaps.

And that is a place that you want to get to. For sure everyone wants to get to after starting over again after a divorce. And I think I have this funny little saying that I made up that "you can't see red flags when you're wearing rose-colored glasses." I love it because it's so true, right? I mean, like really can't. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:44:30] I love it. Yeah. 

Annie Allen: [00:44:30] I too love it because it’s so true. Life has this way of taking those rose colored glasses off. And you can look at that as a negative or you can look at it as a reality. And it is just that it's a reality that life has good and bad. We can have a better life, not by focusing on the bad, by any means, but by being able to see it clearly for what it is so that we can choose differently.

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:44:58] Absolutely. That's what I felt like I did, you know, in the past couple of weeks, is recognized something that I wouldn't have seen if I kept my rose colored glasses on and it wasn't even something that had to do with him. It was really about me. So I just feel like I've been blessed to get to a point where I'm really paying attention and giving my inner thoughts and validation.

And Susan helped me in it. I think I have to give a shout out to our friends Susan Harrison. Confidence is something that she preaches and teaches. And I took her class a couple of years ago and it has really helped me in all arenas. But the last frontier was romantic relationships and I do some of the things that she kind of taught me in that sense, in the hardest front so far.

But it's all work and it's ongoing. And I guess that's my point is that getting over shame is not a one-and-done kind of thing. 

Annie Allen: [00:45:53] No. What is! (Ha-Ha)

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:45:54] Exactly. But I mean, I felt so empowered in the last year. I've been kind of working hard on myself for a while, but I felt so empowered when I start to recognize that I'm doing better and better. I'm becoming the person that I really have always wanted to be. Part of that work is recognizing when it needs to be readdressed and getting it done quicker than letting it smolder. So proud of myself. I'll have to just give myself a pat on the back for recognizing that recently. And it's been good. 

Annie Allen: [00:46:26] I am proud of you too, and I'm glad that you can feel that pride in yourself. That's the goal, to get through all this shame and to stare it down and make it go away because you have that confidence to know that you've been through this and you know, what you need and what you want and you know how to get it. And if you don't, you know how to how to find a way to get it by getting the help you need so that you can get it. You're smarter and stronger than you probably feel most of the time.

I know that's true for me. So I thank you again for being here today, though, for opening your heart, to share your story and just giving us the wisdom that your story has given you. And before we close today, I wanted to ask if you would share with us just a little bit about what Thrive Once More is about your medical experience and the journey that has brought you to that and tell us what you do now.

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:47:22] Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that I just, as you said, finding resources and recognizing that there are places to get help; kudos to you, Annie, like your podcast is amazing. And even though I'm not currently dealing with a divorce. I love listening to it. It's awesome. There's so much there.

And I get so much inspiration from people that are doing a brave thing, particularly women that are doing brave things like you are. I have really enjoyed kind of getting to know you by listening to your heart. So I'm so thankful that your audience has you as a resource because it can be such a powerful tool.

Annie Allen: [00:48:00] Thank you. I appreciate that. 

Dr. Anne Morgan: [00:48:01] And to be honest, that's kinda how I feel about what I do for women as well, in a different way. And, and then as well, I actually see men and women in my practice, but my practice is called Thrive Once More, I spent 20 years in the emergency room as an ER doctor, and I did a good job at it, but it was never really my passion.

But as I have developed what I call integrative care practice, where I preach and teach. I do a lot of education on lifestyle, nutrition, exercise, mindfulness, spirituality, how important all of those things are. But then I also combine the building blocks of bio-identical hormone replacement, fibroid optimization. So what I'm really doing is I feel like I am equipping my patients to handle the stress of life because life generally doesn't get any easier. And so I feel like I do something similar to maybe what you do too, and that is kind of helping people become better equipped to handle the things of life that are hard and find some new joy in them as well.

I always say that I was very intentional when I named my practice because I really want to help people thrive once more.  So that's what I do and I absolutely love it. So again, I'll pat myself on the back. I'm very proud of myself for making a huge career change and next week I work my last ER shift ever, and I'm just so excited about it. I kept my toe in both rings for a while, but I am ready to completely devote every moment of my day to developing my new practice. And so it's been a wonderful journey and one that I find so rewarding really; being with my patients and helping them navigate traditionally menopause, but really just navigating life is really what I try to help people do and give them the equipment to do it as well as they can.

Annie Allen: [00:50:05] Awesome. Well, I want listeners to be able to find you if they're interested in learning more. And if I recall correctly your website is www.thriveoncemore.com correct? 

Dr Anne Morgan: [00:50:15] Correct. 

Annie Allen: [00:50:16] Very good. And listeners, I would love for you to reach out to me and I will be able to make a personal introduction for you to Dr. Anne Morgan,just send me an email. My email is annie@startingoverstronger.com. I think that it really is a lot similar to what I do in the divorce arena and in the world of life transition which is really just to give people the tools. For me probably it's more practical and emotional tools, whereas for you it's more physical tools to be able to redefine their life in a way that they don't live constantly overwhelmed and anxious lifestyle. And so I think that we're doing very similar work in different ways that complement each other very well. So. I thank you very much again for being here and listeners, thank you for tuning in. It's a pleasure to meet you here every Wednesday to talk about the issues that matter to you as you go through and recover from your divorce. It's been a pleasure and we'll see you again in a week. Thank you for tuning in. Remember, as you divorce, there is help as you go through the process and hope as you are starting over stronger.