56 💼 Smart Tech Use during Divorce [Attorney Kristen Buzzelli]

Ever wonder if the way you are using your technology during a divorce could be a factor in getting what you want from your divorce? Or even just in your stress level? Attorney Kristen Buzzelli is here today to talk from her years of experience representing clients as they divorce about how to use your technology smartly during your divorce.  There will be some excellent tips here today that you will not want to miss!

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Transcript

Smart Tech Use during Divorce [Attorney Kristen Buzzelli]

Annie Allen: [00:00:00] Hey guys, I'm Annie Allen, a Certified Divorce Coach® and  RCS-D Divorce REALTOR® and your host for the Starting Over Stronger podcast. The show that's all about bringing you the practical professional help you need as you divorce, in the hope that you can then create a life you'll love. I don't skim the surface around here.

If you want to dive deep into the wholehearted wisdom of how to have a better divorce experience than everyone else you know, by changing what you do, then this is the podcast for you. After a lifetime in dysfunctional relationships with those closest to me and over a decade in recovery. I'm ready to share everything I've learned and everything I'm still learning because I believe the keys to having a better divorce experience and better relationships to come should never be a secret. Here you'll find episodes that offer enlightening and unconventional wisdom that is both actionable and sometimes even fun. Like friends chatting over coffee.

So come be a fly on the wall for these amazing conversations that will give you a fresh, honest look at how you can divorce well, and then live well. If you're ready to do divorce differently, Starting Over Stronger is all about you deciding, surviving, and then thriving through and after your divorce. Let's dive in.

Announcer: [00:01:13] Welcome to this Starting Over Stronger show where you'll find help and hope for your divorce survival and recovery. Divorce well, live well. 

Annie Allen: [00:01:52] Hello, and welcome back to the Starting Over Stronger Divorce Survival & Recovery Show. We all know divorce is hard. And that  the fact is there are ways that we can make it even harder, unwittingly. And today my guest is family law attorney Kristen Buzzelli. And we're going to talk about smart tech use during your divorce. What you can do or not do, to make your divorce easier on you and everyone involved, by how you utilize social media, email, texts, even home security, personal security, and your phone. So hello and welcome to the show Kristen. Tell us a little bit about yourself professionally and personally, if you'd like.

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:02:30] Okay. Hi, I'm Kristen Buzzelli. I've been practicing family law, child custody and divorce for over 10 years. Now I'm in the third year of my own practice. It is Buzzelli Law and we're in Lee's Summit, Missouri right off 2nd Street. I'm pretty tech-savvy, so I tend to get into the tech side of things a little more than some other attorneys do, and I thought it would be a really great opportunity to share some knowledge. Personally, I'm a big fan of animals. I have three rescue puppies and a rescue cat. It's just me and my assistant, Rhonda, and we run a pretty good show here.

Annie Allen: [00:03:08] Very good. Well, thank you again for joining us, I'm excited to talk about this. This is something that pretty much all of my divorce coaching clients deal with on some level. And so it's great to kind of put it all together in one spot where I can say, "Hey, go listen to this episode and you'll know a lot more about it." So, the thing I wanted to say is that I know, by the time this episode is going to air, we're going to be nearing the end of the summer. Certainly, passing the halfway point anyway. And you and I know that summers kind of a surge in another kind of an ending--divorce. August, being sadly one of the months, along with January where divorce filings spike. And I have some thoughts about why that is, but I'm curious what your thoughts are on that?

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:03:51] Yeah. So January we see a spike, I think both because people are starting to get their tax returns in, and a lot of people kind of hold off on getting divorced over the holiday season. The August-July spike tends to be because people are wanting to get court orders in place for the kids before the consorts school. Not really understanding that, that doesn't happen that quickly. So, that tends to be what we see in the August summer timeframe. 

Annie Allen: [00:04:19] Yeah. Well, I was just curious about that because I've heard of that before. I kind of thought it was something to do with that, or maybe even something to do with there being more togetherness during the holidays and those being stressful times, and then maybe more togetherness during the summer months which elevates stress. That was one thought I had. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:04:40] No I never thought about that but that could definitely be a part of it. (Ha-Ha) 

Annie Allen: [00:04:45] (Ha- Ha) Like you know, how 2020 got people together more often than they maybe we’re used to. And everybody says to me when they find out I'm a divorce coach, "oh, I bet you're busy after 2020." And I'm like, "well, I was busy before that," but I think what 2020 did was kind of revealed to us the really true condition of our relationships.

If it was good, it got better. We saw whole families walking to the park and playing out in the yard and, doing things that they weren't doing before. So that was great. But yeah, we did see, a little bit of a spike, I think in divorce filings. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:05:09] As soon as the quarantine lifted, it was just like, whoops! Spike, right through the roof. 

Annie Allen: [00:05:12] Yeah, exactly. Well, so, today we're going to talk about technology and for those going through a breakup of any kind, obviously, there's a lot to manage, from emotions to expenses, to making decisions. And while technology certainly doesn't have all the answers, it can help, but it can also hurt the flow of one's divorce case.

So today I'm going to jump in and just talk about what to do and not to do with technology as you go through a divorce. So let's start with the big one - social media. What thoughts do you predominantly have about how to utilize social media well, during your divorce. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:05:48] Don't use social media. (Laughing) 

Annie Allen: [00:05:51] That is easy. ( Ha-Ha) 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:05:52] Social media is most attorney's worst nightmare. Because a lot of people use social media as an avenue to kind of process their emotions. And so your Facebook posts about your cheating spouse is now exhibit A in your divorce case. It's just a bad place to deal with those emotions. I tell folks, just take a social media break.

You can still look on social media, but just don't post until you've processed your emotions because you're going to post something that kicks your butt. People don't even think like, "oh, I need to sell this item that I have that I don't need anymore cause I'm getting divorced." Okay. Well now you've just disposed of a marital asset and you've done it in public, on social media.

Annie Allen: [00:06:35] Yeah. Didn’t even think of that! 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:06:37] I've never really seen a social media post that helps a parent. I guess the closest would be if you're posting pictures of you and your kids out having fun. But that doesn't really need to be on social media. You can just have pictures of you and your family doing family things if that's what you're shooting for. The worst social media posts, and I use this as an example a lot. I was a guardian Ad Litem on a case, which is an attorney who represents a child who's a victim of abuse and neglect. A big issue from mom's counsel was, "Hey, go look at dad's Facebook page."

So at this point I had already warned him. I'm looking at your Facebook page, man and then he posted a video where he was Facebook Live-ing while actively driving the car. You could see the scenery going past him, smoking marijuana. 

Annie Allen: [00:07:27] Oh my gosh. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:07:28] Eight-year-old in the back seat not in his car seat and his four-year-old brother, also not in his car seat, running around back and forth.

Annie Allen: [00:07:36] Oh my gosh.

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:07:38] That broke so many rules. I didn't even know where to start. So he was denied unsupervised visits largely because of that Facebook post.

Annie Allen: [00:07:47] Wow. So that's good. Anything else on social media? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:07:56] I think just not posting is a big one. A lot of folks tend to post about drug use on there as well. Attorney's know the little euphemisms for smoking marijuana and things like that. It's just a bad place to put any public information out there regardless of whether or not you're in a custody case, just don't do it. 

Annie Allen: [00:08:18] True and messages and posts are admissible. Right? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:08:21] They sure are. 

Annie Allen: [00:08:22] And as you said, they don't usually help with some exceptions.

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:08:26] Yeah. Once you've identified that, 'yes that's your Facebook page and that's the picture of you.' We do also see sometimes where spouses are creating fake profiles to get the other person in trouble. You will get off of that. It will take a while to catch you for it. But there are ways for attorneys to track down who the original poster was on that as well and kick you in the butt. 

Annie Allen: [00:08:49] Obviously. And rightfully so. Okay. Let's jump to email. obviously. Anything in writing is going to be admissible. And so we need to be very cautious in what we put out therein, in any written form, right? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:09:05] Yeah. I mean really when it comes to any technology, the first thing I say is, go change all your passwords. You need to change them to something your spouse can't guess.

So most people's passwords are their kids' names or their family dog or whatever. You need to pick something way out there. Don't use birthday's, the street you grew up on, really randomize it. 

Annie Allen: [00:09:25] Or anything your spouse knows you tend to use.  

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:09:28] Exactly. You don't have that one password that you use for everything and is obvious. Email tends to be a big problem in cases. I don't know why folks think that's not getting admitted to court, but it is. So, another one that we're seeing more commonly now is hacking of emails. 

Annie Allen: [00:09:47] And what does that mean? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:09:48] So that means where you have gone onto your spouse's computer and you've logged into their emails and you're reading everything that they've written.

If it is a shared email where you have given that password, they have the absolute right to get into that. Where it runs into really big trouble is where you are viewing messages between your spouse and your spouse's attorney. That actually is becoming more and more common. It's a little bit disturbing for us attorneys to know that they know.

Annie Allen: [00:10:17] Yeah. Is that breaking a law, privacy law, or anything? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:10:21] If the attorney views them and does not tell their client to stop viewing them, the attorney's committing an ethics violation. If you are genuinely hacking, as in you are going into the email without permission, you did not know the password, you guessed it. Then yeah, you can be in some legal trouble for that. So don't do that. Just leave their email alone. 

Annie Allen: [00:10:43] If it feels wrong, it probably is. (Ha-Ha) 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:10:47] And if you're using email, I think it's a lot easier to move on to an application that allows for a parent or co-parent communication. Some common ones are 'OurFamilyWizard' that one's my favorite hands down, $99 for the year. You can exchange receipts on there. There's a calendar, all of your communications on there. And when time comes to go to court, attorneys basically can click a button and get the whole communication log all at once. Save us a lot of time and for you a lot of time and money generally

Annie Allen: [00:11:25] and emotional distress.

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:11:28] There's also an option where you can grant professional access. So I, as your attorney or Guardian Ad Litem on the case can read all the messages back and forth and help you out with them. But other one, AppClose, is pretty popular. I think there is a free version of that. TalkingParents also free. 2houses used to be free, but I think you have to pay for it now, once you get out of the trial period. AppClose and TalkingParents are a little more basic. It's literally just a communication log back and forth, but it's still easier than email. TalkingParents I think it's $5 to get the whole communication logs. 

Annie Allen: [00:12:02] Oh, so they do some of the same things as Our Family Wizard without the cost, the important things? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:12:07] Yeah. It depends on what all you want to do. OFW OurFamilyWizard, OFW, as we call it, definitely has the most features for you. The other three I mentioned are much more basic, but can get the job done if you just want something cheap and easy. 

Annie Allen: [00:12:24] Well, that's good to know. Because sometimes, I do find myself recommending that a lot for clients because they're just constantly fielding these harassing or just toxic or emotional, text messages. And,  it's sometimes hard not to get sucked into it. And I remind them often, if you're giving back what you're getting, you can't really have a complaint about what you're getting. So don't do it. And the best way to not do it is to block them. So that was going to be one of my questions for you later, but I guess we can hit on it now is, to block or not to block, like what's okay and not okay with that? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:13:02] If you have children together, do not block. 

Annie Allen: [00:13:05] Okay. Even if you provide this other method of communication?

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:13:08] If they agree to the other method of communication and you start communicating on it, then yes, you can block that in theory. I don't like people to do it, even if you're on OurFamilyWizard because in the event of an emergency, say your kid's in the ER (Emergency Room), and they're calling you, you're going to want to get that call. What I tell folks is when you're getting those annoying, harassing, whatever messages from your ex, put them on, 'do not disturb'. Don't let that take up your whole day. 

Annie Allen: [00:13:33] That's a good point. And another client of mine has started having her best friend read them and tell her if there's anything she needs to know. And I'm like, that's freaking awesome. Cause she doesn't give a crap what he's saying. (Ha-Ha) 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:13:47] Exactly. That's a really good way to do it. Or just pick one time every day where you're checking, whether it's email or OFW or texts and just responding to it all at once, you only have to respond if it's something kid-related that requires a response.

Annie Allen: [00:14:07] Yeah, and that's hard at first, but I had to do it and I got better at it as I went. And I just kind of had this rule that I would say four things: Yes, No, I don't know or I'll let you know. (laughing) And that's all I ever said to anything he said, if it even warranted a response at all, and you know, it took a while, but eventually he quit doing it cause he wasn't getting the reaction that he wanted I guess. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:14:33] It is exactly what they're doing, is they're trying to provoke a reaction out of you and if you give it to them, you're giving in to what they want. So what I would tell folks is, as hard as it is, do not respond to that. You're going to read it, think to yourself, "thank you. That's helpful for me in court." Save it, send it to your attorney and then just ignore.

Annie Allen: [00:14:50] Okay. very good. So let's see. Anything else on email? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:14:55] I think that pretty much covers it. Just, you know, same thing. You gotta watch what you're putting in writing. I's coming in one way or another. 

Annie Allen: [00:15:03] Yeah. Okay. Very good. I see that we are going to talk about texts next. So again, watch what you put in writing the same thing, right? (Ha-Ha) 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:15:13] Yeah. We kind of already talked about text messages between the parties. Really scary example. This was actually my client. He liked to use the C-word when talking to his ex-wife and opposing counsel at trial made him read every single text message where he utilized that word. He had to read it into the record at trial. 

Annie Allen: [00:15:34] Wow. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:15:35] Let me tell you that the judge did not care for that. And essentially had to rehabilitate him by... I had early on, told him, like, you need to go get some anger management and find some better ways to deal with this. And so, by the time of trial, fortunately, he had stopped.

But, obviously that's not what you want to be doing. Text messages to your kids, also potentially coming into the record. So if you have that kiddo, that's texting you and being at dad's house and saying, I really don't want to be here right now. This is terrible. Your response to that is coming to court. And so you have to at least try some sort of positive response, even if what you really want to say is, "oh my gosh, I'll come get you." You know, your response essentially has to be like, "Hey, hang in there, bud. You know, your dad wants to spend time with you." Unless it's, you know, sending something where you feel like you have to call the police, you want to have a response back. 

Annie Allen: [00:16:30] Right. Something that kind of empowers them to how they can handle it, or something like that, I think is good. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:16:36] And we've talked a lot about the negative texts coming in, the positive ones are going to come in too. So, another great example, I had a mom. Dad had filed against her requesting sole custody.

And in the week preceding his court filing, he had sent her all these text messages about what a great mom she was, and she's the best parent. She's so great at dealing with the kids. And then he came in and, a week later tried to claim she was abusive. Kind of bit and quite a bit. 

Annie Allen: [00:17:08] Yeah. The truth is the truth.

Okay. So let's see. I was thinking of something else with texts. Oh, if your kids are older, I have seen it be effective where you group text, just to kind of keep the other parent accountable to knowing what it is you're saying and what they're saying to you. So there's not this, he said/she said thing, you know, on specific situations, I guess just executing different activities or whatever. It's just, I think it just helps with communication. It's more open. Have you had that? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:17:44] Yeah, I think it really depends a lot on the child, the child's age, maturity level, and what kind of things you're talking about. It's a, "Hey, we agreed that your dad's picking you up from soccer at four." That's probably okay to have him be on the same page of what's happening there.

If it is, "Hey, your dad's supposed to give you the child support check for me." 

Annie Allen: [00:18:05] Oh no. Yeah. Not okay. A hundred percent with you on that. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:18:10] Yeah. So I think that is actually very helpful in situations where you have the kid playing mom and dad against each other. Not sure how often you run into that, but I can tell you that, I, as a child of divorce did that to my parents (Laughing)

And they've been on the same page. I probably wouldn't have been able to get away with it. 

Annie Allen: [00:18:29] That would help with that. You're right. Okay, so technology has come a long way with regard to home security. What are some ways that comes into play with divorce?  

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:18:40] So I think it helps a lot with personal safety where you have domestic violence or stalking situations. Anybody in that situation, the first thing I tell them is go get a Ring doorbell, because if somebody is driving by the house or coming up to the house or trying to break in, you have that extra protection for you. They're not super hard to install. They're relatively inexpensive. A lot of those DIY home security companies are out there now. It's more than just Ring.

I think Nest has one, a couple of other companies as well. Ring's just kinda my go-to on that. It's very handy, especially in contested custody because some sort of shenanigans are going on, then your ex is going up to your house. You're going to get a little warning. And just the fact that it's there, I think deters problems as well.

Annie Allen: [00:19:20] Yeah. Maybe even exchanges at the door would be better if we knew that was on camera. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:19:26] Yes that helps. A really good example, I had a client with an order of protection that said that he was not allowed to come up to the house and he was trying to pick up the kids and had gone to the house instead of the school.

I don't know how... that mistakes, supposedly if that was a real mistake, that was his story. But he went and knocked on the door and there he was in her Ring camera and he ended up getting charged with a criminal violation of the order. Wow.

Annie Allen: [00:21:17] And another tip I'll add there on Ring or any video doorbell system is if you already had one and you're staying in the same home, that your soon to be ex used to live in, you need to get rid of that one and you need to get a new one that is only in your name with an email address that's new that only you can access. And make sure that the other party is not viewing what's happening on your doorbell. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:21:42] I think you can just change out the contact stuff on it and the permissions. I could be wrong. 

Annie Allen: [00:21:49] I have had trouble with that personally. So that's why I just recommended, “get a new one.” They're a hundred bucks, very much worth it, in my opinion. I don't know why they make it as difficult as they do. I think it has to do with the other party still being, maybe logged into the account. And so they're saying, you know, the owner's still logged in and you're like, no, I'm the owner. And they're like, well, there's somebody else still logged in. So it's… it can be sticky. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:22:16] I would say definitely watch out for that.

I have had where both people are looking at the camera and my client was able to see the other party removing assets from the home, from the Ring camera. 

Annie Allen: [00:22:26] Oh, wow. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:22:27] And you also have to watch out for the hidden cameras, right? That's the one that's very clearly on the door. But if you're moving into a house that your spouse was previously occupying, are there other cameras you don't know about or recording devices?

I hate to say. this but they do. 

Annie Allen: [00:22:42] Yeah. I've even heard as high tech as a phone being, I forget what they called it, but a second version of a phone being mirrored. So I don't even know how that's possible, but a person can get a phone and they can make it like a mirror image of your phone so they're seeing everything you're doing. So,, 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:23:02] Yes they can really watch the text messages that the other person is sending back and forth. 

Annie Allen: [00:23:08] So if your soon to be ex  has that issue or is really tech-savvy it's something to be aware of for sure. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:23:15] You are actually better with a low tech flip phone, because they can not get in as much on it as they can with a smartphone yeah.

Annie Allen: [00:23:22] Or a new phone that they've never had access to. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:23:25] Yes, new phone is also a good idea. Anytime we have people on the same plan and there's security issues, I always tell you, go get your own plan, go get your own phone. Even if you want that old phone back, it's not worth it. 

Annie Allen: [00:23:38] And sometimes it's hard because you know, it has to do then with account ownership and who's an authorized user and can you even make a decisions about your own phone, and is your soon to be ex going to somehow sabotage your ability to access that phone number and to be able to get whatever you're needing to be able to transfer to a new account. Those are all issues that I see quite often. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:24:00] Usually you're going to have to get, if you're on the same account, they're not going to split it. And you're going to have to get a new phone number and a new phone and a new account. 

Annie Allen: [00:24:09] It's really advisable to handle all of this stuff before you even file, if you can because sometimes the dynamics shift so much after that things become impossible. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:24:20] Especially if there's a safety risk issue. I think I was getting into that one later where they can track you on your phone, your fitness watch, Garmin watch, they can track you on all of that. I've actually had cases where I've been sitting with a potential client and she's gotten a text message from her soon to be ex saying, I know you're meeting with a lawyer right now. 

Annie Allen: [00:24:45] Oh, wow. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:24:46] Yeah. Changing all of that before you even meet with somebody is a really good idea. 

Annie Allen: [00:24:53] Yeah. Okay. So personal security kind of follows along with the same thing, what you're talking about, the watch thing, and just thinking about all of the different devices that, you know, technology for, what it's worth, you know, it's very invasive in our lives. Alexa and all these other things that we well knowingly welcome into our homes to listen to us talk. How does that all come into play with divorce? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:25:19] Alexa listens in on you and your kids. I had a case. It wasn't Alexa. It was one of those Google “Hey, Google” devices, and the kid had been searching inappropriate things in the middle of the night and one of the parents found out that it was happening at the other parent's home. Because he had the Google device in his house and she had the account access. All of those devices. Really... we had another case where dad got out of jail for violating the order of protection and then stood down the street, used OnStar to make her car honk all night long.

Annie Allen: [00:26:08] Yeah. Just to be mean. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:26:10] There was no way to prove it. The police tried to get records from OnStar who did not cooperate of course. But we knew, I mean, there were only two people with access to that. So a lot of this stuff, I mean, your cell phones, your fitness watches, your iPads, all of them have GPS in them.

If you guys are on the same iTunes account or Google account that's all accessible, you have to change all of that when you change afterward. 

Annie Allen: [00:26:36] Yep. Very good. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:26:39] Now that's the bad side, there is a good side. Right? Tech can help too. 

Annie Allen: [00:26:3945] Right.  Well, I'm sure we'll talk about that. I don't want to leave that out. That's good. And here's one way, with your phone recording options. I know from another interview I did with a different attorney that you can actually do a screen recording of a text conversation and that, in her opinion, judges prefer that to your screenshots because your screenshots can be deliberately chosen. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:27:08] Yeah. 

Annie Allen: [00:27:09] Whereas the screen recording shows the entire log of this conversation from before the conversation started, slowly all the way down through where it ended so that the judge can read the whole conversation, and determine for him or herself what the true context was of that conversation. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:27:27] Yes, that is a great one. There's also automatic call recording. There are apps that will do it for you. All the calls that you're having will be automatically recorded. And then you can choose which recordings you want. One caveat to that is both parties have to be in the same state.

If you're not it's federal wiretapping. If you both live and work in Missouri, it's pretty safe to do that. 

Annie Allen: [00:27:52] Okay.  

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:27:54] Other positives, especially for gals who are in situations with potential stalkers or protection safety situations. I cannot recommend enough Ripple safety for those of you who can see it just looks like a tiny little lock. I am in no way paid to promote this product, 

Annie Allen: [00:28:12] but you just like it that much. (Ha-Ha) 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:28:14] I just like it this much. I started using it after I had a couple of personal threats to me. Basically I just, some people put them on a necklace or bracelet. I just hooked it to the end of my fitness device. One press and they will immediately call you.

Well, I think it's two presses and they'll send emergency services to your location. And it's a very, very inexpensive little device you pay for like a year membership on it. And it ends up being like $90 for the year. 

Annie Allen: [00:28:42] Okay. Good to know. And what was it called again? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:28:45] Ripple. Ripple safety is what they call it.

Annie Allen: [00:28:48] Okay. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:28:49] Another one I haven't tried yet, but I have on order is a Flare bracelet. It's actually like a little metal bracelet where you push two buttons to call for help. Most of your smartwatches these days have an emergency button. I think it's meant more for shoe falling and you can't get up. But would also in that situation. Why I tend to lean towards something like this more than a watch is your ex probably knows that your watch or your Fitbit device can get you help. This is small and tiny and nobody knows what it is. Well, now people know because I told you all about it. (Ha-Ha) 

Annie Allen: [00:29:25] But it's not well-known. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:29:26] Yeah.

Annie Allen: [00:29:27] Very good. So, anything else on recording? You mentioned an example about moms recording calls.

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:29:34] Yeah. So I had a case where mom recorded calls between dad and the kids. I actually told her not to do that. She's like, look what I found when I did Kristen. And it was a very inappropriate conversation with the kids. Very degrading to mom, to the point where he actually said, was crying and said, "I'm not your daddy anymore. You have a new daddy now." 

Annie Allen: [00:29:59] Oh, my gosh. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:30:02] Pre-teens. So we were able to play those in court and I just watched the judges face. Like the red just went up from her neck, into her, into her scalp. She was so mad and it actually got her sole custody of those kids. So, I say use with caution, judges tend not to like recording, but if you think what's going on is bad enough. They'll probably listen to it. 

Annie Allen: [00:30:26] Yeah. Okay. Good to know. What about monitoring your teens? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:30:30] I cannot stress this enough folks. Please, please watch what your teens are doing on their phones. There are a couple applications out there that allow you to keep an eye, even on what they're saying on Snapchat. Two of them that I like are mSpy and Bark. You gotta really as a parent, especially with teenagers keep on the, up about what the latest apps are. The teens tend to look at Snapchat like we used to look at AOL instant messenger. (Ha-Ha) That was the thing when I was a kid that everybody used, the AOL instant messenger. Right. Snapchat was developed so that you could send inappropriate pictures to people and those pictures would then disappear off their phone. So you got to think about the original fan base for Snapchat and what they were really interested in doing.  A lot of folks out there on Snapchat trying to obtain child pornography, or just generally inappropriate kidnappers, whatever. I cannot encourage you enough to keep an eye on that. TikTok, Whisper, Kik are all ones that tend to be another one. You got to keep an eye on. TikTok is mostly silly videos now, but I think originally when it started out, it was a little bit of a breeding ground for problems. A new one that's popped up in Lee’s Summit, Omegle. It's not actually an app. It's a website that a bunch of Lee’s Summit kids were doing. And there was absolutely no screening on it. Like when you logged in, there was actually a warning that says  we're not checking the ages or verifying the identity of anybody on here. And all of these kids were ignoring the disclaimer and going on there and chatting with people. Very scary stuff.  An article came out recently about OnlyFans. Do you know what OnlyFans is? 

Annie Allen: [00:32:20] Nope. I'm not tech-savvy. So I'm interviewing you. (Ha-Ha). 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:32:25] OnlyFans is an application where you can subscribe to channels primarily. This is folks putting out sexual pictures, sexual content and OnlyFans is supposed to have protections in place so that minors cannot utilize it.

But they have recently found lots of miners utilizing it and making money off of inappropriate pictures. 

Annie Allen: [00:32:50] Wow. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:32:51] I have a 15-year-old stepsister, which is why I know about a lot of these things. And I just told her, look like you gotta think about somebody asks you for that picture. Yeah, they're committing a crime, but when you send it, so are you! As a 15 year old, you've now engaged in child pornography and you can be charged.

You really gotta be straight up with your kids on this. You gotta be checking their phones. This comes into play a lot in custody cases, too. Some parents were saying things they shouldn't be saying on Snapchat. So they go away, or kids who are struggling and going through these issues often reach out to people they shouldn't to get help and support. And that can cause you a world of hurt as well. 

Annie Allen: [00:33:24] Yeah. For sure. I jokingly say that Snapchat is obviously not for adults because by the time I go to respond to what you told, what you said to me, your message has gone. And I don't even remember what you said. (Ha-Ha) 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:33:37] I agree. (Ha-Ha) 

Annie Allen: [00:33:40] My life is too busy for that kind of crap. I need to see what was happening so I can think of what I need to say. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:33:46] I kind of look at it as if what you're saying is appropriate. Why do you need it to disappear? 

Annie Allen: [00:33:51] Yeah.

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:33:52] But the kids love it. It's very, very popular with them, but you just got to kind of monitor your teenagers, watch out for what they're doing. Keep in touch with other parents. When Omegle came out, that was a, a huge network of Lee summit parents started kind of spreading this back and forth and it should be noted. This was not teenagers doing this. This was the fourth and fifth graders. So... 

Annie Allen: [00:34:17] Now what was that one called again? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:34:20] Omegle. It is a website.

Annie Allen: [00:34:23] Okay. Interesting. Raising teens is hard, period, even if you're not getting a divorce, but this kind of sheds new light on how that can be a factor in a divorce situation for sure. As you mentioned, it already is a volatile situation with a lot of emotions and kids aren't handling it well. Teens aren't handling it well, even if they are making you think they are, they're not, they're struggling and it can come out in waves that could harm themselves or others. So, it is something to keep an eye on for sure. And I have just a few additional thoughts that I wanted to talk through, which was, on social media, do you see working better to unfriend or unfollow your soon to be ex and or anybody that, you know, maybe family or friends that might be loyal to your soon to be ex or, you know, those kinds of situations? What do you see work best with that? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:35:16] Well, you're listening to me. You're not posting stupid things anyway, so it doesn't really matter. (Ha-Ha). 

Annie Allen: [00:35:20] That's true. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:35:21] Generally. I would say, take a look at what your privacy protections are.

If you're trying to hide yourself, yeah, you can unfollow you can unfriend. Unfriending is the easiest way to protect it, but if you don't have your profile set up, so it's not visible to folks who are not your friends then they can never see it anyway. A lot of times when I'm hunting for information on social media for profiles, I'll go friend one of your friends, and now I can see your whole page.

I'm friends with a friend of yours. 

Annie Allen: [00:35:49] Yeah. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:35:50] So that's why I can't stress enough just don't post. If it's on the internet, we can find it. We have our ways. 

Annie Allen: [00:35:56] Yeah. And even if you're not posting anything, that's directly related to your divorce case in an unsavory way. I would have to think that if there's any volatility in the divorce, that it would be to your benefit to unfriend your soon to be ex and make sure those protections are in place because who knows what they might see on your posts that they would twist and try to use to their advantage.

And furthermore, they don't need to know your business. And you don't need to know there's, so break that connection. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:36:28] Well, some of them again are trying to poke the bear.  We're still friends with him. I keep using him. She knows you're still friends on Facebook. So she might be posting a bunch of pictures with her new boyfriend to see what happens.

Annie Allen: [00:36:40] Or just because she wants to.

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:36:43] Yeah, she wants to not be thinking about how that affects you and the kids and things like that. So posting locations is another thing that tends to be problematic. You don't even think, I'm going to check in at this restaurant. The whole world now knows where you are. I've had cases where, you know, mom had parenting time. We had concerns that she had an alcohol problem. Well, she was posting pictures of her friends and tagging her location at the bar she was at when she was supposed to have kids. Yeah, that's pretty strong evidence, right? 

Annie Allen: [00:37:23] Yeah, absolutely it is. Okay. And one that I've seen come up a few times even recently is how to handle your kids. Contact with their other parent on your parenting time. While also protecting your own sanity and boundaries. I'm sure you can think of situations that would fall in line with that. What is a good way to handle that situation? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:37:47] That's pretty situational. It really depends a lot on your kid. If you have a kid who's normally sitting there and texting with friends all night and that's just kind of the normal pattern, if they're texting with their parents it's probably okay because they're on their phone anyway. I generally say if you're taking your phone away as a punishment, you should let the other parent know, so that they still have a way to reach that child. But generally, the rule is telephone contact at reasonable times with reasonable frequency. So if you have a parent who's calling to speak to the child on your time four or five times a day. That's not really reasonable. 

Annie Allen: [00:38:22] Yeah. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:38:23] Daily check-ins, totally okay. It also kind of depends on what that parent's saying. You know, it comes back to what I was saying before, are they being supportive of your time or are they... I actually had one where mom had told the kiddo to tell dad that he was a blankety-blank. And obviously that's, that's not helping, that's a situation where pulling that phone away is a really good idea. Kind of just depends on your household and what's normal though. If they're normally texting and they do that on the other spouse's time when you don't have them, you know, what's Good for the Goose is Good for the Gander generally.

Annie Allen: [00:38:52] Exactly. Yeah. Now the situation I'm thinking of, it was a woman who, the children were, I would say probably just under 10 maybe, and they really liked to video chat. When they spoke with their father, when they were at home with her, and it was becoming a real trigger for her because he would have his girlfriend, you know, on the phone and they'd all be just chatting it up.

And, and she's hearing this all the time, you know, I don't know how long or anything. Different people were making different recommendations to her. And mine was simply, I do think, like you said, that it should be reasonable frequency and reasonable amounts of time. I think she referred to them being on the phone for an hour at a time or something.

And I was just like, that seems a little unreasonable to me, but furthermore, that child can take that call in their room. Or somewhere that you don't have to hear it. So I think that's another good boundary for situations like that. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:39:48] I can't imagine a ten-year-old actually staying on the phone for an hour.

Annie Allen: [00:39:53] Maybe it wasn't quite 10. It might've been six or seven. I don't know. 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:39:56] The younger they are the harder it is to keep them engaged in a phone call generally. So yeah, I always recommend, unless you have to supervise the call because you think inappropriate things are happening. Generally, put the child in the child's room door closed.

"Hey, come out when you're done talking to that parent," it's not unusual for parents to use those video calls to kind of check out what's going on at the other parent's house. 

Annie Allen: [00:40:19] Exactly. That was the other thing she mentioned. I think he's kind of spying on me, 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:40:24] Yeah. So wandering around is usually not a good idea. But you want to give that if the other parent's appropriate, you want to give them privacy with the kiddo. So the kid doesn't feel like, "oh my God, mom's listening to everything I say." So in their room with the door shut. I wouldn't think it would be an hour, I guess. (Ha-Ha) 

Annie Allen: [00:40:41] I don't remember. I'm making things up here, Kristen. And I don't remember the details. I just remember it was uncomfortable and it was triggering to her and I'm like, well, it's your house and it is your time with this child. So I think, probably it's a boundary issue that just needs to be discussed. Maybe they'd be willing to work with you on it, or at least you could work with your children on what it is that you want to set in place.

So I guess what final thoughts do you have on smart technology use during your divorce? 

Attorney Kristen Buzzelli: [00:41:09] Again, just use with caution. Remember everything you put in writing is coming in potentially to court. Don't respond with anger. There is a really good book out there called 'Biff' by Bill Eddy. That's all about how to co-parent with difficult people. Use your technology wisely, keep an eye on your kids with tech. 

Annie Allen: [00:41:33] Be smart with your smart technology. Well, thank you again for being here, Kristen. It's been a pleasure and I want to let everyone know that you are a practicing family law attorney in Lee’s Summit, Missouri and that they can connect with you at buzzellilaw.com. 

I always welcome anyone to email me at annie@startingoverstronger.com where I would be glad to make a personal introduction to you for them. And if they do reach out directly to you to let you know that they heard about you on the Starting Over Stronger Show.

Thanks so much for being here and sharing your experience and wisdom with us today. And listeners thank you for tuning in. And remember until we meet again, you do not have to go through your divorce alone. We have conversations like this every Wednesday here on the Starting Over Stronger Show. And if you need more help, check out startingoverstronger.com for more about coaching support. So you can do divorce differently and lessen the time, stress and money involved in your divorce. I'm here when you need me. And remember, there's help as you divorce and hope as you are starting over stronger.