58 💼 Q&A: Domestic Violence Divorce Judge PART 1 [Judge Kate Lynch]

Ever wish you could stand before a judge and YOU ASK all the questions???? Now you can. I have compiled a list of questions from my clients and some former guests on the show that we are going to ask Judge Kate Lynch, who has served on the Domestic Violence docket for many years and is working to reform the way DV is handled during and after divorce. You won't want to miss this! If you don't need it, thank God, but someday you will be a lifesaver to someone else who does if you listen in today.

Please direct your questions via email to Annie@StartingOverStronger.com or visit www.StartingOverStronger.com to learn more about divorce coaching and book a complimentary discovery call while you're there. I will also gladly make a personal introduction to connect you with today's guest.

"Can I keep the house?" Find out more about what an RCS-D REALTOR does to protect you as you make this decision. www.AtHomewithAnnie.com.

If you have ideas for topics in future episodes or to ask a question for a future ASK ME ANYTHING episode, please email Annie@StartingOverStronger.com. 

Gratefully,
Annie
 
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Transcript

Q&A: Domestic Violence Divorce Judge PART 1 [Judge Kate Lynch]

Annie Allen: [00:00:00] Hey guys, I'm Annie Allen, a Certified Divorce Coach® and  RCS-D Divorce REALTOR® and your host for the Starting Over Stronger podcast. The show that's all about bringing you the practical professional help you need as you divorce, in the hope that you can then create a life you'll love. I don't skim the surface around here.

If you want to dive deep into the wholehearted wisdom of how to have a better divorce experience than everyone else you know, by changing what you do, then this is the podcast for you. After a lifetime in dysfunctional relationships with those closest to me and over a decade in recovery. I'm ready to share everything I've learned and everything I'm still learning because I believe the keys to having a better divorce experience and better relationships to come should never be a secret. Here you'll find episodes that offer enlightening and unconventional wisdom that is both actionable and sometimes even fun. Like friends chatting over coffee.

So come be a fly on the wall for these amazing conversations that will give you a fresh, honest look at how you can divorce well, and then live well. If you're ready to do divorce differently, Starting Over Stronger is all about you deciding, surviving, and then thriving through and after your divorce. Let's dive in.

Announcer: [00:01:35]  Welcome to the Starting Over Stronger show where you'll find help and hope for your divorce survival and recovery. Divorce well, live well. 

Annie Allen: [00:01:53] Today is a big day on the Starting Over Stronger podcast. I have the honor (pun intended) of having what I know will be an amazing conversation with the show’s first divorce court judge. I want to start by thanking my significant other Jerry for making the suggestion to interview a judge on the show. I have to say it got my juices flowing, but owe me little faith. I thought there's no way a judge is ever going to come on my podcast, but I decided to ask around. And lucky for me, I started by asking family law attorney MaKenzi Higgins. Its she who thought I would be able to find a judge that would consider that. Much to my surprise, she took that baton and ran with it.

She emailed me a week or two later and said, "guess what?" And so, the rest is history. So a big thank you to you as well. McKinsey Higgins for that suggestion and for making this connection today with our guest. So without further ado, it is my pleasure to introduce Wyandotte county Kansas district court judge honorable Kathleen Lynch.

Welcome to the show. And if my sources are correct your duties include adoptions, guardianships, estates, care and treatment cases, sexually violent predators, adjudications, protection from abuse, protection from stocking, paternity, and criminal diversion dockets. And you also preside over the docket for payment and noncompliance docket for supervised visits and exchange, correct?

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:03:19] That's right. And I don't have to do the criminal diversion docket any longer. I kinda got lucky there. 

Annie Allen: [00:03:27] Okay. So what else can you tell us about you and what you do? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:03:31] Well I graduated from law school in 1992. During that time I worked for one of the professors, professor Nancy Maxwell, who's now retired, but she was one of the family law professors at Washburn. So I got into family law kind of just because I needed a job during law school and I liked professor Maxwell. So then I got really interested in that area. I practiced family law, I think for about 15 years or so now that I've been on the bench for 15 years, everything tends to blend together.

So after I left law school, worked at the court of appeals for a couple of years, and then was in private practice and became a judge in August of 2006 and did the child in need of care docket, which also had a lot of domestic violence overtones and custody overtones for two years and then became the paternity and PFA judge which are really my main areas and probate encompasses a lot of things.

Annie Allen: [00:04:29] Okay. Well, very good. I have to say the first thing I learned about you. when I started doing my research was a little fact that I thought was quite interesting. I think others might too. And it was a story about you and your robe. Would you tell us about that?  

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:04:47] I do the care and treatment docket, which is the involuntary commitment docket, and Wyandotte behavioral health network, which was our county mental health agency invited me to attend the training on trauma-informed courtrooms.

And there was this really brave woman who stood up and told her story of living with mental illness in the court and navigating the court system as somebody living with mental illness. And she talked about every time she would walk into the courtroom and the judge was sitting on their very high bench, in his shiny leather chair and his shiny black robe that would trigger her mental illness symptoms, and her palms would start to sweat. She would start to itch and twitch and all of that.

And inevitably that caught the judge's attention and off to the races they go. And she said, "I would end up either in the hospital or the jail every time." 

Annie Allen: [00:05:55] Wow. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:05:55] I always wore my robe just because that's what judges do. We have robes and we wear them. And we're kind of special because we get these special robes. Right?

Annie Allen: [00:06:02] Right. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:06:04] The real reason that we have a robe is to show that we are impartial. We're not dressed like anybody else in the courtroom that is supposed to be our cloak of impartiality. And it also signifies a certain amount of authority. Well, there are certain dockets that you cover that, that authority, that signal or that sign of authority can get in the way.

And so with our care and treatment docket, when we're trying to get the person to the resources and the help that they need, and if you're familiar with motivational interviewing techniques, there's a lot of motivational interviewing that goes on in certain cases. I hope that other judges have used them to get the person to the resources and to the point where they're accepting help.

So I thought, well if that robe is going to be such a barrier to that very noble goal and cause more problems, I just won't wear it. There's nothing that requires me to wear it. So I just sort of hung it up. So I don't wear my role in the care and treatment docket. And I have found that in certain cases that even in other than the care and treatment docket I should say, it actually does the same thing.

It kind of triggers people and it sets them off and causes issues. So, I don't wear it on a regular basis anymore. I kind of pick and choose because if the robe is the only thing setting up your authority in the courtroom, then you might have bigger problems as a judge. (Ha-Ha) 

Annie Allen: [00:07:45] (Ha-Ha) Good point. Well, thank you for sharing that.

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:07:49] So, in the trauma-informed courtroom education that I received actually has paid dividends in all of the things that I do in my courtroom. 

Annie Allen: [00:07:59] You know, you had me at trauma informed courtroom, honest to God you did. I just think that's super cool and so down to earth of you to look at something, so maybe seemingly trivial. I guess, but it's not. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:08:16] If there's anything good that has come out of the pandemic and I suspect that we could argue all day long, whether or not when you lose 600,000 of your fellow Americans, whether or not there's anything good from a pandemic. It's certainly brought to the forefront, I think of a lot of folks in the judicial branch that we are not being as customer service oriented or, you know, in the mental health world, they refer to the patients as consumers. And I think we could do the same thing in the judicial branch. And I think we have not been very consumer-oriented. And I think with the onset of a lot of the zoom hearings and those sorts of things that we need to start looking at what we can do within reason so that perhaps the courts are more accessible and more approachable. 

Annie Allen: [00:09:06] Yeah. I like that. I've actually had a conversation on this topic, on the show. I think even with a mediator who shared that one thing that they've experienced through this time is that they have actually found that to some degree there's better communication in some mediated situations.

When the parties aren't physically in the same room together, that that's a dynamic fit. Maybe we would have never known to explore, but they were forced to, and they suddenly realized, wow, this actually works better. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:09:37] You know, during the I think it was the Carter administration than it may have been before that, but they, the term shuttled diplomacy was because they would shuttle from one head of state to the next head of state when they were trying to work out things like the Peace Accords in the middle east. So if it works for countries, why wouldn't it work in a situation where somebody might be intimidated by the mere physical presence of someone else? I know that in my domestic violence docket, which is called every Wednesday the protection from abuse and protection from stocking orders, we have elected due to security concerns to keep that docket on zoom for the foreseeable future, because we don't have to worry about that violence in the courtroom. We don't have to worry about the petitioner and the respondent. So victim and alleged user leaving the courtroom, which was always where it happened. It was always on the street outside the courtroom or on the way to the parking lot, those types of things. This approach takes that worry away.

Plus we know that folks, especially victims, a lot of times the alleged abuser has done things to put them at risk of keeping their employment. So they can't afford to be taking off to come to the court all the time. So they can clock out for 15 minutes, handle their business with the court and then clock back in.

That's effective for them also. 

Annie Allen: [00:11:08] Yeah. It's a whole new world and in a lot of ways, that's a better thing. So, well, I know just from our one previous phone conversation, that you're a big advocate for social services in the area, and for courtrooms that are more sensitive to people who have experienced trauma.

What I picked up on our conversation was that that includes trauma from emotional, verbal and psychological abuse, not just physical abuse. And so thank you. Seriously a heartfelt thank you for me as a certified divorce coach with a clientele that's 50 to 60% under protective orders during their divorces. This is just amazing to hear that, that's happening. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:11:50] Well. I have to give all kudos to the Kansas judicial branch and the national council of family law and juvenile court judges. The Kansas judicial branch, the office of judicial administration who's kind of in charge of all the judicial education did a training. It was in the megalopolis of Salina, Kansas. And that was when I was really exposed to the first kind of mini training that the national council did. After that, I was asked by the national council to come to Santa Fe and spend a week. And it sounds really great, like, oh, poor Kate, she had to go to Santa Fe to get trained, but because you're using federal money from the office of violence against women, you actually sign in and sign out every time you go to the bathroom, there was somebody watching to make sure that you're actually getting the training. So there isn't any clock in the morning and then go into hit the ski slope or anything like that. And I'm glad that it was that way because the training was just absolutely excellent. And I followed that up with continuing judicial skills in domestic violence. Recently it was 2019. So it seems like recently it seems like I've lost a whole year. I did the elder abuse training that the national council does. And somewhere after continuing judicial skills, they picked me to go to the faculty training. And so now I get to travel with the national council and help train other judges about how to spot domestic violence or those issues in their cases because sometimes it doesn't, the attorneys don't even plead it because they don't see it. And with no-fault divorce, the only time that it comes up is if there is custody.

Annie Allen: [00:13:46] Right. Well, I appreciate that you're giving credit where credit is due but at the same time knowing this is your heart and your passion is what drew me to have you on the show today to have this conversation and what I've arrived at, we talked about lots of different avenues as far as what we could talk about today. But we ended up kind of rising to the surface is kind of an Ask a judge, anything kind of episode. So I talk with all my clients and just different business partners and social media, and kind of compiled this really big list of questions that we probably won't get to all of them, but we'll do our best. And I want to give you some time in the end to offer us anything that you have to share in addition to what we talk about. I want to preface these questions by saying that a lot of these questions are from people who have been hurt in very, very deep ways. And so if anything comes across negatively, please hear it from that aspect. It is certainly not for me any judgment of the courts or of you as a judge. Just simply where people are at when I say, "Hey, what if you could stand in front of a domestic violence divorce court judge, what would you ask her? And this is what kinda came out. So I think we'll start with the easiest question of the day, which is not even on the subject of domestic violence, per se and perhaps very broad. I was asked when you're on the bench and a divorcing couple appears before you, what do you most of all want to see from them? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:15:24] Are their children involved? 

Annie Allen: [00:15:25] Well, I don't know. Let's go both ways. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:15:30] All right. Well, if there are children involved and there is no domestic violence because that adds a whole other layer to it. What I would like to see is that the parties are moving to a position where they're putting the issues of their personal relationship aside and moving towards the business of co-parenting and being able to place their children first and foremost. I know that it sounds easy to say but I know what it is as I am a divorced mom, myself.

My husband and I, or my ex-husband and I were able to arrive at a shared residential custody agreement, but it took a boatload of work to put the kids first. I get that. So I don't expect anybody to stand in front of me to be getting along so well that I know they have completely arrived at the co-parenting position, because if they could do that, they probably wouldn't be getting divorced 

Annie Allen: [00:16:25] and they wouldn't be standing in front of you.

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:16:28] Right. Exactly. So that is what I would like to see. As far as, you know, when it becomes a divorce settlement and there aren't any children, when the parties have reached a fair, just, and equitable agreement. I like to hope that when they're walking out of the courtroom, they're going to go on and be happy in the community and perhaps find whatever happiness is out there for them as they are in another relationship and that turns out to be a successful relationship. Great. Or if that's whatever that looks like for them. I mean, I think that's what we all hope that we don't have them coming back either with the same person or another couple. 

Annie Allen: [00:17:10] Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for sharing that. Most of my listeners are women that are facing an uphill battle in divorce, like being under or unemployed, exiting a toxic or even abusive marriage. What words of wisdom would you have for this woman as she executes her divorce? And should she end up in a courtroom?

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:17:30] I think you need to know your audience. And there are ways to do that. Know who the judge is. Most judges have bright-line rules that if you talk to your attorney or if you are representing yourself, you can kind of do some research about what their educational background is. And so you'll pick up on those clues about what their bright-line rules are and, you know, I think when we got rid of no-fault divorce, that was a big part of the feminist movement so that women could get out of bad marriages. And I think it's appropriate for women to be able to leave a marriage or anyone to leave a marriage that is not fulfilling them as human beings.

However, no-fault divorce resulted in, I know, you know, but when you do the research women actually don't do as well in a divorce setting as they did when they were able to divorce alleging fault. So I think what women need to be able to do, and this is certainly what I try to advise my clients to do when I was an attorney which was, let's take a look at the position you were in when you got married. If you hadn't chosen to marry him, where would you be now? And what did you give up to marry him? Because that has an economic and a value that needs to be considered. Because by the mere fact that we are the ones that bear the children, a lot of times, women's careers get off track and they never quite make it back from the mommy track.

Annie Allen: [00:19:11] Yeah. And even if they did, they're still at a deficit. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:19:15] They are still 10 or 15 years behind unfortunately. And I think that if a judge is uneducated if it's a domestic violence situation and they are not educated on domestic violence one of the things that we know that happens to victims in prolonged, emotionally abusive, and physically abusive relationships is they become hyper-aware and hyper concerned about safety, understandably so, and safety of the children. So, that hyper-awareness, if you are not aware of how that abuse can affect a victim, can look to a judge who might be uneducated as she's not giving this guy a break. She is just harping on everything he does wrong. And so she's really the one at fault here and for the parenting situation not working out.

 So sometimes. If that is the situation you need to, again, this is in the perfect world where everybody has plenty of money to prosecute their case. You need to bring in someone who can educate the judge on why the person appears to be hyper-vigilant. 

Annie Allen: [00:20:31] Okay. That may even answer my next question, which was what victims can do to make their voices heard? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:20:35] Well, certainly there are some tremendously great nonprofit organizations out there. Moxa is one, Kansas city antiviolence project. Safe home, any of the domestic violence shelters. They can certainly provide an advocate for the victim and even if necessary, sit down and speak to the victim about how to even speak in court. Because I represented enough women over the years that were unfortunately in domestic violence situations. And you could feel almost a vibration as soon as the alleged abuser walked into the courtroom. And many times because of the way courtrooms are designed, they're designed for the ease of the court. So not necessarily with safety of victims in mind. Think of the courtrooms where the tables are right next to one another, my courtroom, cause it's a family law courtroom and a probate courtroom doesn't have a jury box. So it's only 16 feet wide. So imagine if you're a victim of abuse, how that might feel sitting in that courtroom.

Annie Allen: [00:21:51] Yep. I've been in a courtroom like that. So I know what you mean. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:21:55] So those are things that you know, so they need to work on what they need to work on perhaps to desensitize themselves if that's possible so that they are in control of their emotions in that situation. And I know that that's easier said than done. 

Annie Allen: [00:22:13] Well, sure it is. And first and foremost, because they don't know to do that, and if they don't have a coach or an attorney who would advise that, then they would never know to do that. So I think that's a great recommendation. And on that note, what should they do when looking for a, or trying to choose an attorney that will get what they're dealing with? How do they even begin to make that selection? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:23:55] There are lots of good matrixes out there I think for people to look at. Kansas bar association has a great referral system. There are groups of who's who and matrimonial lawyers they still call it that. I don't know why, you know, custody lawyers, all of those sorts of things.

You can review those. I think you can call the disciplinary administrator and ask if this particular lawyer has ever been sanctioned by the disciplinary administrator if there was a center and those sorts of things. That's one way to look at their actions. Ask them, what do you know about domestic violence? Have you been educated? Have you received any education other than what's been provided to you in a CLE concerning domestic violence? Because many of the attorneys do have that. 

Annie Allen: [00:24:50] And obviously a lot of that has to do with trial and error to some degree. I mean, you maybe have a friend or somebody that's made a recommendation, but you need to go meet them.

And my recommendation to all of my clients, if I get them before they have an attorney is to interview at least three attorneys and to trust their instincts about whether or not they truly understand what they're dealing with and don't hire him if they don't. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:25:15] And a lot of times victims of domestic violence have been victims of gaslighting.

So it is hard for them to trust their instincts because they've been told that all of their instincts are wrong over the years, but absolutely trusting your instincts are finding that don't just go to Joe Smith because he represented your cousin. Cause your cousin's case is going to be different than yours because there are no two divorce cases, to custody cases that are ever the same. 

Annie Allen: [00:25:45] Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if this falls under the same kind of line of thinking, but what importance does confidence hold in the courtroom? Because I mean, we're talking about people but probably don't have a whole lot of it. And is that going to cause their case to weaken their position with the court to weaken in some situations? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:26:04] I have to be careful answering that because of course I'm not supposed to answer a question or respond to a question that might come before me as a judge. But I don't know that I've ever judged a witness on their self-esteem or confidence. Okay. I don't know that I have that. That's been one of those things. 

Annie Allen: [00:26:29] Yeah. I can't recall who submitted that question. So I'm trying to think what even the line of thinking might've been, but it was probably just having to do with wanting to present as well as possible. I mean I've had a client who I know, her outcome did not fare as well because she didn't have the advocacy to educate her on how to present herself in the courtroom.

And she hadn't resolved a lot of the trauma from the abuse that she had dealt with. So she presented very poorly in court and she lost a lot because of that, unfortunately. So, I think that's kind of the line of thinking on that is just how important is it for me to present well in court is probably kind of the line of thinking there.

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:27:19] Well, it used to be about 12% of family law cases were actually ever overturned on appeal. And all cases, family law cases are very driven based on the testimony, the credibility, the demeanor of the parties. So if what we say, most people say it's about 45% of the actual verbal communication and the other 55% is non-verbal. If somebody does not appear to be confident in their answers, that might be interpreted, notice I said, 'might be interpreted as not truthful. 

Annie Allen: [00:28:00] Yeah, absolutely. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:28:02] So there are some times the underlying demeanor, and judges can take into count credibility and demeanor just as a jury can, when they're the trier of fact and concluder of law. 

Annie Allen: [00:28:15] Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So, as part of, I guess, sort of preparing for trial in the domestic violence divorce court one person says, I was told to gather evidence, record everything. I made a spreadsheet with dates, time, photos, incidents, etc. and nothing mattered. He fabricated numbers, made false allegations and literally got everything he asked for. What documentation or, what could have been done differently in her situation? What, what happened there? What could've been done differently? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:28:57] Well, it's hard for me to say, "that this is what happened" because of course I wasn't in the courtroom and it wasn't a case that I was directly involved in.

But I suspect perhaps that we are dealing with the hypervigilance issue being interpreted as- she's not giving him a chance to be a parent and she's pointing out everything that he did wrong in that as a victim of domestic abuse when you're hypervigilant, it might be interpreted one way or the other.

And I question if they were representing themselves. Whether or not, they were able to lay a proper foundation to get those documents into evidence that is a... 

Annie Allen: [00:29:38] In this case, I know that they were not representing themselves, if that makes a difference to your answer. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:29:43] Okay. And then, so I suspect that perhaps you might've had a judge who didn't understand that the photos, the incidents, all of that was not being hypervigilant was in fact factual because sometimes as again, as I said, I think that hypervigilance gets interpreted as a situation where they're just looking for anything to throw at the other side. 

Annie Allen: [00:30:10] Yeah. And that's a fair response, I guess my question in seeing that question was why didn't he have to produce numbers and documentation for what he was alleging?

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:30:25] The only thing that I can tell you is that he would have in my courtroom. 

Annie Allen: [00:30:29] Okay. Fair answer. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:30:31] I mean, I don't know what state this might've been in, but the Kansas Supreme court has kind of done a really good job of taking it off the district court judges.

If you file for emotion for child support, then you've got to put your DRA out there. You've got to produce your income information as well as the other side, if you want to modify the parenting plan, you have to file the motion and say, why. And you have to file your proposed parenting plan. So the other side has something to respond to because if not, you're negotiating with yourself.

Annie Allen: [00:31:06] True, I think this might've been in Kansas, but it's possible it was Missouri, but it would have been one of the two I think. But fair answer. I think that's a good answer. So, I guess the follow-up question to that was, are you aware as a judge that abusers are continuing to use the courts to further their abuse and their unscrupulous lawyers are gladly going along with this?

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:31:32] Well, first of all, I suspect there are unscrupulous lawyers out there, or there wouldn't be lawyer jokes. Right? 

Annie Allen: [00:31:40] Right. (Ha-Ha) 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:31:43] And certainly there are lawyers that have higher ethical standards than others. I'm aware of that. I don't think that is the rule. I think that is the exception to that, but yes, I am aware that there are abusers who attempt to use the court system to continue to abuse the victim, especially when the abuser did not get what they wanted the first time. So, as lawyers are known to say, "hang paper", file motion after motion after motion. Sometimes they're hoping to provoke the victim to snap and react badly so they can succeed. But  there are safeguards built into the system for that 62 11 B in Kansas say it states that, if you file a frivolous motion, then the court can order sanctions against you.

I'm aware of it because of having practiced family law. I used to tell the victims that I represented, "he's going to do this because he can't get his hands on you anymore." He doesn't get his needs met by emotionally abusing you now so this is the next step he's going to take. And so you have to have a lawyer who's willing to file those motions to dismiss and request attorney's fees and stuff.

And it may be the first time, but it probably will happen the second or third time because courts are overwhelmed with cases. I handled eight ex parte orders for domestic violence today. So we really don't have time for the frivolous stuff. 

Annie Allen: [00:33:27] Yeah, absolutely. 

So what kind of evidence can actually be presented and heard?

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:33:34] In what context, as far as domestic violence is concerned? 

Annie Allen: [00:33:38] Yes, 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:33:39] All relevant information is admissible. But what I see on a regular basis, especially in the protection order docket, so there's no divorce case on file yet. And here comes the victim by themselves and they don't have pictures. If they do have pictures of what happened then they can't lay what's called the proper foundation for admission of evidence. There are all kinds of videos out there, YouTube videos on how to lay a proper foundation. It's accessible. We have Dr. Google out there now, or judge, lawyer, Google. Just Google, find out what you have to say and what you have to say is "judge, I took this photo of my left cheekbone on June 25th at 12:41 PM after I was struck by the respondent. It is a true and accurate copy of the photo. And I would like to admit that into evidence." The judge is likely going to ask that has the respondent seen that if not slide the photo over. Let them look at it because the judge then has to ask if they have any objection and that's how you lay a proper foundation for any documentary evidence. And another thing that causes a lot of confusion in the courtroom, frankly, it caused a lot of confusion in law school is hearsay.

So if Kate Lynch says something on June the 25th and Annie Allen repeats it on Saturday, that's hearsay. Right. But if Annie Allen is just saying, let's say, I'm not offering that, that it's part of the truth of what I'm offering, then it's not hearsay. So that gets a little confusing. So you will have people walk in and say, well, I have all these affidavits for my neighbors and they, and I want you to admit them well, the court can't admit them because the neighbors aren't here to be cross-examined so you could offer hearsay for certain exceptions. There's a ton of exceptions, but if it's being offered for the truth of the matter, then the person who spoke those words has to be there to be cross-examed. And I know it's very frustrating for victims.

But there's a fine line between the courts educating someone and at a court proceeding, you know, we're there to call balls and strikes not to coach the game. So we can't tell people if somebody objects hearsay, I can't explain, "okay. Here's how you get that in", because I don't do it for the other side.

It's particularly vexing when you have a and it's always the cases that the judge dislike the most, I'll be honest with you, is the case where you have one party that's represented by counsel and one party that is not. It makes it more difficult because you can't even begin the court proceeding by advising everybody that I have to treat everybody the same because the rules state that if you walk into the courtroom without a lawyer, I'm to treat you as if you are a lawyer and have been to law school and understand all the terminology. 

Annie Allen: [00:36:53] Yeah. That's a risk you're taking, I guess they know that. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:36:55] Right. Exactly. But I do believe that because of court TV, And judge Judy, all those things, which are not real courtrooms, they think that somebody is going to help them out.

Somebody's going to ask them questions. Well, that, isn't how it works in the real world, unfortunately. 

Annie Allen: [00:37:17] That's good word of wisdom and a good tip. So, you know, I guess really it comes down to what can be presented and heard is what's transpired between you and the other party. we've talked a little bit on the show before.

In fact, some of it was with attorney MaKenzi Higgins on what's the best way to present that kind of evidence. She, she made the recommendation that rather than screenshotting text conversations to actually do a screen recording where you start beginning before the conversation started and scroll through everything so that you get context as a judge, which I'm sure is helpful. Anything else that you would advise as far as the gathering and recording of evidence that can actually be presented and heard? 

[ PART 1 ENDS ] 

Wow, isn't this great listeners. We are really getting some incredible insight from this judge here today. And because I like to keep episodes under an hour, and this interview was a record breaking hour and 15 minutes long in total.

I have decided to jump in here and break it into two parts. So that's going to be all for today, but we will pick this back up next week, where we're leaving off here with the second half of this extraordinary exploration of what divorce and domestic violence look like from the other side of the bench.

And the reason we're doing this is because knowing this can help you know how to make the best of your appearance in divorce court, especially if there was or is any form of abuse in your marriage. So thanks for being here today to listen in, be sure that you have followed liked or subscribed wherever you're listening.

So you'll get notified when new episodes drop or you can set a reminder in your own calendar to be here every Wednesday morning. Episodes drop at midnight so that no matter how early you wake up it's there for you every Wednesday morning. You can set your watch by it. So thank you for being here again. And remember that I am here when you need me. You can email me anytime at annie@startingoverstronger.com. Be sure to visit the site if you haven't to see what more you can gather there for resources as you face divorce, and I'll see you next time for more help as you divorce and hope as you are starting over stronger.