59 💼 Q&A: Domestic Violence Divorce Judge PART 2 [Judge Kate Lynch]

Ever wish you could stand before a judge and YOU ASK all the questions???? Now you can. I have compiled a list of questions from my clients and some former guests on the show that we are going to ask Judge Kate Lynch, who has served on the Domestic Violence docket for many years and is working to reform the way DV is handled during and after divorce. You won't want to miss this! If you don't need it, thank God, but someday you will be a lifesaver to someone else who does if you listen in today.

Please direct your questions via email to Annie@StartingOverStronger.com or visit www.StartingOverStronger.com to learn more about divorce coaching and book a complimentary discovery call while you're there. I will also gladly make a personal introduction to connect you with today's guest.

"Can I keep the house?" Find out more about what an RCS-D REALTOR does to protect you as you make this decision. www.AtHomewithAnnie.com.

If you have ideas for topics in future episodes or to ask a question for a future ASK ME ANYTHING episode, please email Annie@StartingOverStronger.com. 

Gratefully,
Annie
 
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Transcript

Q&A with DV Divorce Court Judge Kate Lynch

Annie Allen: [00:00:00] Hey guys, I'm Annie Allen, a Certified Divorce Coach® and  RCS-D Divorce REALTOR® and your host for the Starting Over Stronger podcast. The show that's all about bringing you the practical professional help you need as you divorce, in the hope that you can then create a life you'll love. I don't skim the surface around here.

If you want to dive deep into the wholehearted wisdom of how to have a better divorce experience than everyone else you know, by changing what you do, then this is the podcast for you. After a lifetime in dysfunctional relationships with those closest to me and over a decade in recovery. I'm ready to share everything I've learned and everything I'm still learning because I believe the keys to having a better divorce experience and better relationships to come should never be a secret. Here you'll find episodes that offer enlightening and unconventional wisdom that is both actionable and sometimes even fun. Like friends chatting over coffee.

So come be a fly on the wall for these amazing conversations that will give you a fresh, honest look at how you can divorce well, and then live well. If you're ready to do divorce differently, Starting Over Stronger is all about you deciding, surviving, and then thriving through and after your divorce. Let's dive in.

Announcer: [00:01:35]  Welcome to the Starting Over Stronger show where you'll find help and hope for your divorce survival and recovery. Divorce well, live well. 

Annie Allen: [00:01:52] Welcome back. Today is part two of Q & A with a divorce court judge. We're joined again today by the honorable Judge Kate Lynch. Judge Lynch, if you didn't already listen in last week, is a divorce court judge on the domestic violence docket in Wyandotte county, Kansas. And we started this interview with her last week and we're going to just be picking up, right in the middle, where we left off for part two. So if you haven't already listened to last week's episode, you might as well start there and then come join us here for the second half of this incredible interview. So like I said, we're going to just jump right in with where we left off last week. So here we go. 

You know, I guess it really comes down to what can be presented and heard is what's transpired between you and the other party.

We've talked a little bit on the show before, in fact, some of it was with attorney McKenzie Higgins on what's the best way to present that kind of evidence. She made the recommendation that rather than screenshotting text conversations one should actually do a screen recording where you start beginning before the conversation started and scroll through everything so that you get context as a judge, which I'm sure is helpful.

Anything else that you would advise as far as the gathering and recording of evidence that can actually be presented in heard? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:03:18] Well, I think there's a lot of great communication apps out there that keep a record. There are two that I can think of, the CLOSE app and OurFamilyWizard. These can't be manipulated. They can't be changed by any of the parties. All of that communication is saved on a server and it's accessible. If you give court personnel the information, then the court can get it through a court service officer or those types of things.

I think it's always best to speak to the other party on the other side of the case as if you were working in a business-like setting and its context is always important. And because just like that we see when we see videos on the news of somebody beating up another person, you're like, well, what happened? You always have the commentator that comes on and says, well, what happened before that, right? You know, there are two sides to every story. So if you do save all of the information and not just the bad text but saved the entire thread; I think my kids might've told me they were called then that may sit in context with the judge. And then if somebody gets frustrated, you might see. Oh, okay. So we're asking the same question over and over and over again. I've seen that we've seen those POIs and those sorts of things, but yes, context is very important. 

Annie Allen: [00:04:50] Yeah. And I advise my clients all the time to just, you know, you have to stay above reproach because if you want him to be held accountable for his behavior, then you are going to be as well.

So oftentimes what I would really like to recommend, and I stopped short of it often because if they share kids, I'm worried that I'm going to put them in a situation by recommending it that they're not going to want to be in, which is no contact. And so when you're in a situation where the victim wants to be on OurFamilyWizard because she knows there's protection there, but he won't get on it because he wants to keep abusing her through text and whatever else. What is okay for her to do can she block him, even though they share children, and force him to either not communicate with her at all or only communicate through this traceable way. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:05:42] That's placing me in a position of answering a question that might come before me. But I think hypothetically speaking, what might be a good idea is file the motion with the court. If you're in court and say, judge you ordered this and the person is not complying with that order and I no longer want to have contact because of the abuse that goes on, then let the court make the final determination.  I think it's always a bad idea to make unilateral decisions, if you're in court, without checking with the court and letting the court to deal with it. I recognize that it may seem a small thing to come back to court for but the courts are aware that communication can be used as an abuse tool. That's why the courts are so excited about ordering OurFamilyWizard and the CLOSE app and those types of things so that the parties can still be parents without weaponizing the kids. 

Annie Allen: [00:06:50] Okay. A couple of different questions came in and I think they're really asking the same thing. Basically, will domestic violence have an impact on the outcome of my case? I think that's a resounding yes. But at the same time, it's kind of worded a little bit differently and I think maybe a little bit better in this other question, which says do prior acts of domestic violence affect your decisions regarding asset distribution during trial? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:07:17] As I stated, Kansas is a no-fault state. If you can show that the abuse affected the use of assets, then I think you would be more likely to see a judge take that into account that you would have to tie it to one of the other factors in dividing the assets. 

Annie Allen: [00:07:40] Okay. And I think, honestly, the better question, or certainly equally important question is whether prior acts of domestic violence are going to affect your decisions regarding custody?

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:07:54] That is a specific factor that the court has to consider. It's one of the factors that is set out in the custody statute. So the courts have to consider that evidence and if it is credible, what that means for the parties going forward.

Annie Allen: [00:08:13] Okay. Here's a tough question that obviously again comes from a place of pain. How do abusers end up then with custody of their kids? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:08:23] I'll be brutally honest because you have judges that aren't educated about domestic violence. Also, if you know, there's a lot of groups out there about father's rights et cetera. Moms are too busy raising the kids to do those sorts of things I think sometimes. That comment might be an issue. But I noticed that a lot when my colleague Judge Alvie was on the Blue Ribbon commission for child support, and it was always a father's rights group that was in front of them arguing about child support being lowered, never a mother's rights committee out there asking for it to be raised.

And so I think it's some of that issue which might be at play there. I also think it's judges not being educated about what domestic violence looks like in the courtroom. And I think it might be judges not taking into account all the factors that we're required to take into when it comes to the best interest of the child or the children and whether or not you're setting up a situation where co-parenting is never going to work.

Annie Allen: [00:09:32] Yeah. True. So speaking of co-parenting... 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:09:36] On that topic about the abuse, there's some legislation and it's been very interesting. I'm on the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges legislative committee, and we've become aware of some cases out there, or some legislation that's been proposed where that shouldn't be a factor that's considered domestic violence. There are some others that say if you have been convicted of domestic violence etc, you should never be able to have custody of your kids. So that's becoming somewhat of a political volleyball. And so you kind of have to, which is what I always tried to do when I practice law as a practitioner is if the domestic violence has taken place and it's affected the kids and the kids are weaponized or access to the children has been attempted to be weaponized as abuse then those are the situations that are very concerning. 

Annie Allen: [00:10:40] Yeah. The problem is a lot of times in those situations, the woman has no money. She has no recourse after a bad judgment has happened.

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:10:51] And I'm aware that the economics of the situation are rarely favorable in those situations. But, you know I will tell you that the Kansas legal services attorneys that I have dealt with in my courtroom are good at attorneys. They know the law and they know how to present their case and they understand domestic violence. So don't be afraid and think just because an attorney works for Kansas legal services that they're not good. That isn't the situation at all. The situation may be they're just not going to work for a big firm because their heart is in a different place. 

Annie Allen: [00:11:29] That's awesome. Good to know. I actually have someone that I'm going to make that recommendation to right now then, so thank you for that.

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:11:35] And every county, every state has Kansas legal services. I think in Missouri, it's a Western district of Missouri legal services. I think that's the name. I'm not a hundred percent sure. And then there are attorneys who work on a sliding scale through the Kansas bar association referral program.

Annie Allen: [00:12:00] Okay. Very good. A couple of questions on more or less residential issues which is, if someone as a victim of domestic violence were to move into a shelter without their kids, what would be the likely outcome? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:12:13] I can't answer that question because that might come to me as a judge in the courtroom. 

Annie Allen: [00:12:15] Oh yes, I thought of that after I asked it. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:12:18] I wish I could.

Annie Allen: [00:12:21] Yeah, well, that kind of knocks out a few questions. So let's see.

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:12:36] But let me say this. I think the mere fact that someone left a domestic violence situation and moved into a shelter, that minute of itself is not going to be a Kings X to that person obtaining custody, because there are... 

Annie Allen: [00:12:51] It's not going to be an immediate abandonment claim against her. I've heard that. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:12:56] If she would leave the marital residence and move into a shelter and leave the kids at their home where they have their clothes and those sorts of things. Sure, he's going to run in and try that but I think there could be some context that's put to that. And judges have to look at those, all of those factors in the statute before they can say, oh, she left and so she can never see the kids or have any parenting. 

Annie Allen: [00:13:21] Right. And there's so many different factors. I mean, there's no way for us to sit here and say, you should or you shouldn't take your kids with you to the shelter because we don't know your situation.  And then I guess the only other thing really honest, as far as who's going to live where, and all of that is whether or not verbal abuse and threats of property damage are sufficient enough to grant an ex parte motion requiring the abuser to leave the house.

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:13:49] Well let me just grab my book because I just happened to pull it out because sometimes even though doing this work for 15 years, there's a situation that comes up and you're like, well, does that quite get me there? Or are they entitled to that order? Okay. Qualifications for protection for abuse order, they have to be residing in the home or formerly resided together.

So let's say they broke up and somebody moved out or have a child in common. There's another factor but it's a little more confusing. So I'm not going to read that one off. So, or they are in a dating relationship and the person has intentionally attempted to cause you or a child bodily injury or intentionally or recklessly caused bodily injury. So that's not a verbal threat, but the next one is, or the person has intentionally placed by physical threat, you or a child in fear of imminent bodily injury. So, let's say there are no words, but he looks right at you throws a punch into the wall right next to your head that's property damage, right? 

Annie Allen: [00:15:02] Right. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:15:03] Judges are allowed to use our common sense. Although I will tell you that I'm sure there's someone out there that's alleged that I don't have any common sense because a hundred percent of the time 50% of the people are walking out of my courtroom and they didn't get exactly what they wanted. So they don't like me. But that's okay. So we're able to use our common sense and our reasonable personal thinking standard. So even though it might be property damage like I'm going to go slash your tires on your car. Well, that's a threat to slash the tires. That's a threat to property damage. You'd have to tie it into whether or not it puts you in fear of bodily injury, but remember, how do people get out of situations this day and age and especially in Kansas City where we don't have a mass transit system, they get their car and they go. Same with taking your cell phone and smashing the cell phone. Nobody has a landline anymore. Or at least I should say nobody under the age of 54 and because I'm 54. (Ha-Ha)

Annie Allen: [00:16:14] Okay. So a couple of things on like actual courtroom situations. First of all I've had on the show previously, a guest that I interviewed who was a vocational consultant and spoke about the difference that it could make for a client to bring a vocational plan to have a vocational expert or an expert witness to testify on her behalf as to her earning potential and what is required to get her to where she needs to be, financially speaking. I guess, to build a case for what support she's trying to gain. What thoughts do you have on that? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:17:02] I think that's an excellent idea. I didn't even have a client that we used that type of evidence. But I think it would be helpful to the court. And especially if you have someone who can put it in economic terms, but instills in that language that is kind of universally understood. So we're not talking about a big economic theory, but actually here are the facts. Here's where she was. Here's where she is now. Here's what she's going to do to get to that position. I think that's an excellent idea. It would certainly help me in making decisions when the court has to make a fair, just and equitable decision. When you have more information and good factual information, you're going to make a better decision.

Annie Allen: [00:17:46] Absolutely. Some people want to know if they're going to have to take the stand, they've never been in a courtroom. The only thing they can think about it as they've seen a lot of TV. (Ha-Ha) So what does that actually look like in divorce court ?

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:17:59] You are called to the stand because I try and keep my courtroom to be less confrontational even though there is a conflict, sometimes I will say, is everybody comfortable with the witnesses testifying from the council table? So they're not up on the stand. Sometimes that doesn't work. Sometimes judges are uncomfortable with that. That's just what I do. If you are on the stand and you're going to be on the stand, usually that's either to the left or the right of the judge there'll be a court reporter. If the judges have the court reporter if not, everything will be recorded by digital recording. We have a recording system in my courtroom, so there's going to be a microphone in front of you. You rarely have to project your voice because we try and locate the court reporters where they can hear everything. Now, if you have a very soft sweet voice, like my daughter, then you're probably going to have to project your voice just a little. And your attorney would ask questions first and direct evidence. If it's your attorney that has called you then he cannot lead you on questions so he can not lead you to the answer to those questions. That's a frequent issue. And of course, there are some things that other attorneys are going to allow the parties to lead on because they know we're going to get to the heart of the matter. And then they're going to start objecting on leading because they don't want the proceedings to take 17 hours when they can take 7. Right? 

Annie Allen: [00:19:32] Right. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:19:32] So just be prepared for that. And then there's the cross-examination and they are asked, they are allowed to ask leading questions on cross-examination. But they cannot go into anything that was not testified about on direct evidence. So if your attorney didn't ask you about it, they can't raise it on cross-examination. That doesn't mean that they can't call you in their case in chief, they can, because you're a party. 

Annie Allen: [00:21:15] Good point to ask this. If he doesn't have an attorney, will he be allowed to question her? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:21:20] Yes. 

Annie Allen: [00:21:21] Or vice versa? If It's the other way around.

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:21:23] Yes, they will. Let me tell you a little story about a guy who ended up being my stalker and got criminally charged for stalking me as a judge. And I never wanted to be this person, but had to do it because I had to protect my family and he represented himself and he got to cross-examine me.

And so I am acutely aware of how much fun or not fun that can be. But remember if somebody is trying to be argumentative, the judge can step in. If somebody is trying to be abusive, the judge should step in and say, it's argumentative. If he tries to approach the witness, you never approach a witness in a courtroom without requesting the judge’s permission to do so, even lawyers. So those types of things, you should be protected. 

Annie Allen: [00:22:22] Okay, very good. Is it better to bring all the evidence possible or be particular or picky or strategic about it? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:22:28] I would say if it's domestic violence, I think sometimes it's best to highlight the worst incident and the most recent incident. That's how I would approach it. That is how we now have, the state of Kansas has gone to a digital portal where you can go and get your own protection order. And it's sent to the clerk's office of the county in which you file. And they will get to it that day. Usually it's still not available on weekends and those sorts of things. And that's the approach that they take. And that's the approach that I took as an attorney. And if there are things that happen in between there that are significant, obviously that can show a continuing path. 

Annie Allen: [00:23:14] Yeah. And are the victim's therapist's notes or emails regarding the abuser admissible as evidence at trial or is a therapist required to obtain waivers from the abuser in order to provide notes and emails?

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:23:29] If the court has ordered any party to obtain a mental health evaluation and those sorts of things and that was obtained pursuant to a court order, or you went because you were ordered to by the court, then those are going to come in. The other thing is, that's one of those questions where I'd have to hear all the facts before I answer it.

Annie Allen: [00:23:49] Yeah. Okay. Well, I think the last one about the courtroom is what effect you see in Guardians Ad Litem (GAL) having, this particular asker was in a parental alienation situation. And so I think the question kind of sits around the potential that at least in her case and others that I've been a part of the GAL actually worsen the situation for the kids because the abuse was covert. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:24:22] That's one of those questions that are a little tricky to answer, because it could come before me. I will tell you that the parental alienation topic is a very hot potato because even the national council will recognize that parental alienation syndrome that came about, all of that's pretty much been debunked. The syndrome in and of itself because it isn't a syndrome. It is not in the DSM five. There are no factors but do people engage in individual parental alienation and do things, trying to alienate the other parent? Yes. They do. The Guardian Ad Litems though, the reason Guardian Ad Litems came about was to keep the kids off the stand in divorce cases so that they are represented if you will. Now, there are certain judges who instead of appointing a Guardian Ad Litem will appoint a child custody investigator. And usually, that's an attorney with a pretty extensive family law background. And that gives them a little bit wider berth in asking questions and presenting evidence. And sometimes it is on a judge by judge courtroom by courtroom basis about how far the judge will let the Guardian Ad Litem go down the road. 

Annie Allen: [00:25:51] Well, I want to say that I think that's a definite positive that Guardians Ad Litem and child custody evaluators are taking the place of children in the courtroom. I'm thankful for that. I think what's kind of rising to the surface for me on this question is that there's probably just as much education needed in those areas, as there is with judges with regard to covert psychological, emotional, and verbal abuse. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:26:22] Supreme court rule, I'm probably going to get this wrong and everybody's going to laugh at me, but I think it's 1-12 might be 1-20 that actually allow Guardian Ad Litems. They specifically set out the hours that they have to have concerning child custody, continuing legal education. I do not believe that there is any continuing legal education on domestic violence, that's required under that rule. And maybe that is something that the Supreme court in making up their rules should look into. I will tell you this though, every year, the Wyandotte county bar association does an all-day CLE training that is set out to satisfy the requirements of that Supreme court rule, and just about a year ago a good old judge Lynch's they're giving a domestic violence education usually from the materials provided to me from the national council. So I'm taking directly what I was taught as a judge, breaking it down, maybe changing some of the scenarios but putting them in the Guardian Ad Litem, and right out in front of the Guardian Ad Litem, we have a scenario we do concerning Sherrod's place and it's a pretty horrific case where you can go through and it was actually a civil and a criminal case. And then there were some probation issues and you pick all the spots where the horrible tragedy that occurred could have been stopped if they're just the court system. And there's also a good exercise called Cummings and Goings, and it is conducted in silence and it puts you in the shoes of a domestic violence victim and you get a certain amount of money and you get a certain amount of goodwill cards and there's all these places that you can go and then you read the scenario off and then you have to make that decision. And not everybody is given the same amount of resources. So not everybody gets the same amount of money or goodwill cards. It's the same scenario that we were put through as judges and it's conducted in silence because we know that victims of domestic violence are often cut off from friends and family.

And that's one of the very first questions we ask in the debrief is why did we conduct this in silence? So, I'm not saying that we're doing everything right in the Wyandotte county bar association and the Wyandotte county judges, but we are trying to get the information and the education out there. 

Annie Allen: [00:28:58] Yeah, well, and you're certainly not alone in the lack of education with regard to covert abuse, it's a nationwide, industry-wide problem. It just is unfortunate that in this particular arena of divorce and domestic violence, the people that are being hurt the most are children. And so, we want to all be doing everything we can.

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:29:20] The first thing that you're taught as a judge when you're making a decision about kids is you always put the best interest of the children first. And there are some things that we are learning that are harder to see than other things. 

Annie Allen: [00:29:35] Yeah, for sure. Well, and on that note, really, the last thing that I have is something that I feel like might feel a bit like an attack. And so I'm going to present it in a way and as best of a way as I can. And just kind of roll it all into one question. Because the things that I was asked is, do you feel like the family court is a boys club, a bias on the bench? And the, your favorite one and mine. How can we change this fundamentally flawed system? And so without putting you on the spot the feeling that I get from all of these questions is 'I'm already a victim.' How do I not be more of a victim when I try to get out of that situation? What do I do to prevent myself from being in a worse situation? Because I try to leave my abuse. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:30:26] Right. I think safety planning is really important. Making sure that if you can have money that you, no one else knows about so that if you can go that you have money, that you have a credit card that you can survive on your own for a little while. Because nothing in the court system moves fast. Yeah. That was always advice that I think even the safe home and those folks give that is making sure you have a plan in place. So that you can survive until you can get some child support and those sorts of things. One of the things that we did in Wyandotte county was, with our protection from abuse cases we were finding that a lot of times people weren't filing for divorce for various reasons or, and the PFA or the paternity cases for various reasons, it just never got done.

Or we've put orders in place and they'd be getting along okay and then the PFA would go away and then there are no orders. So we brought in the division of children and family services contractor and our court trustee contractor to make sure that we get that child support started right off the bat because we know one of the reasons women returned to their abusers is financial.

I don't think it's a boys club because I think some of the best family law judges and some of the best family law attorneys are women. And I think that's because women are better at holding two conflicting ideas in their heads and moving forward with them. Whereas in this psychology will bear me out on this, men brains do better with not having to hold two conflicting ideas at a time. And I think it's because women are better multitaskers. 

Annie Allen: [00:32:10] Yeah, absolutely. And you're right. That is science. Not judgment. (Ha-Ha). 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:32:14] Yes. That's not me. That's science and that science-based education that I was given as a judge. As far as the bias and those sorts of things going, I think we're now starting to see education for judges with implicit bias. And I think sometimes there are perhaps judges who have not done a very good job of recognizing their implicit bias. The classic example is, oh, I'm colorblind or I'm, it doesn't matter what gender you are. That's BS (B***S***). Our entire lives we have been fed social messages through commercials or whatever. The important thing is to recognize that, to know that going in, and if you find yourself leaning towards the situation, then you need to ask yourself, why am I leaning towards or away from a situation and make sure it's based on facts and not your implicit bias because everybody has it and to say that you don't then that's a problem number one. 

Judge Karen Arnold Burger, who was our court of appeals judge in Kansas, who is a court of appeals judge does this amazing training on implicit bias. 

Annie Allen: [00:33:31] What was her name again? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:33:32] Karen Arnold Burger. You can probably find it online because she did it as part of our Kansas judicial conference this year. The judges are all brought together every year to get our CLE or judicial education hours. And she did it as part of his, I have seen part of it before, because of my training with the national council but she does a really great job. 

Annie Allen: [00:33:59] Okay. Well, so in closing, I want to say, when we asked the question, how to change a fundamentally flawed system, I think no matter whether you're talking about divorce court or anything in the world that you think is fundamentally flawed, I think the answer is that you turn your pain into action. And so even as I sat here and listened to you today, and I heard you say that the Supreme court has continuing education requirements for or maybe that we could petition the Supreme court to have continuing education requirements for specifically talking about Guardians Ad Litem and child custody evaluators, but I think we can very easily put judges and lawyers into that pool as well, of people who need to better understand covert abuse. And that goes for mental health professionals as well, because quite frankly, therapy puts a lot of people in really bad situations, way too often because of a practitioner who has a good heart, but doesn't really understand what's happening in that relationship.

So, I think for me. I mean, I'm sitting here thinking, what can I do to petition the Supreme court to add continuing education for this? And I'm planning on emailing you after this conversation to ask you- literally, what can I do? Somebody has to start somewhere. 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:35:22] I think there are four counties. I think it's Shawnee. Sedgwick, Wyandotte, and Crawford where we are elected. The other judges are retention judges, meaning once we're appointed by the governor then every four years we stand for retention. I happened to be from an elected district so of course I think elected is best because I think if you're going to have politics in a situation, you might as well have it right out in front where everybody can see it as opposed to retention elections, where the politics are behind those curtains over there. And don't look behind the curtain because we are not required to. But the Supreme court judges and our requirements are the same for judges. We have to have three hours of ethics. We have to have 12 hours of CFC. So 15 hours total usually that has to be approved by our judges. They bring us together for the judicial conference. I think one time in my 15 years, and it might be twice in my 15 years, we actually had at judicial conference domestic violence training. So I think all judges need it. I think they need it to understand, even in a criminal case, why is the victim not showing up to prosecute him in the criminal case?

And I think judges may draw an inappropriate or false conclusion based on the victim not showing up. And I will be honest, back in 1994 when I was a city attorney in the unified government, before it was a unified government of city of Kansas City, Kansas, the victim's used to be able to come in and sign a release saying I won't sue the city if he hurts me, I just don't want to prosecute my case. Well, that just meant that two days later, the KCK PD was going back out to that house when the abuse continued. So,  after they changed that policy, then they said, well, we can go ahead with the victim and we can try and use some of the hearsay exceptions. So the theory being well, if we put them through a trial, maybe that'll stop him. Even if she doesn't show up. So yeah, we've come a long way in domestic violence but we haven't come far enough. I say to contact the Supreme court chief justice, Marla Lucker. You can contact the office of judicial administration and tell them you think that the Supreme court rules need to be updated. A certain domestic violence and certain types of domestic violence training need to be added to our curriculum. 

Annie Allen: [00:38:09] Okay. Very good. What closing thoughts do you have today about domestic violence and divorce? 

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:38:15] Well, I would say specifically towards domestic violence, I tell everybody it's like cancer and house fires. Doesn't matter how much money you have. Doesn't matter what color you are or what type of education you do. It hits everybody. And if you think that you don't know someone who has been a victim of domestic violence, you're fooling yourself. It's one in four women. One in, I think it's seven but it might be nine, I know it's an odd number of men. So it's out there. The fact that, you hear people say, well, you know, I hear a lot of people try and use that as a ploy to get custody. And so I'm always worried about false allegations. Well, you should ask yourself this, if that's true, why isn't it brought up in more cases? And we know that most victims don't report because it takes seven times for somebody to actually leave a domestic violence situation. So if it's that prominent, then it's false. Why isn't it used all the time? And that's because it's not. That's because it's under-reported and the fact that it's the one in four is probably more than one in four.

And it's probably in men, even more, it's one in seven. It's probably more than that, that have experienced domestic violence because of power control politics, power control abuse. It's not narcissism. It isn't just a gender thing. It happens in all kinds of situations and all kinds of genders. It's not just a heterosexual situation either. I've seen it in all kinds of relationships. It's even in caretakers and the people that they're caretaking. Abuse occurs even there. 

Annie Allen: [00:40:06] Yeah and my thought on that is let's be more worried about the true allegations than the false ones. Okay. Well, thank you so much for being here today.

Judge Kate Lynch: [00:40:18] Well, thanks for having me. And my courtroom has been incredibly changed by the domestic violence education that I've received. And I would advocate for all judges to get domestic violence evaluation. But I will tell you honestly, a lot of the time it comes down to money for domestic violence. A lot of the training that comes to the national council comes through the office of violence against women, which means federal funding. And that funding has been tied up for years in the Congress arguing about, well, is this money going to go to women who are not citizens or is it going to, you know, those types of issues that they use to hold up the money.

And that's just really not a concern for me. I don't care if you're a citizen or not a citizen. If you're standing in front of me and you need safety, then it's our job to make sure that we get you to safety. 

Annie Allen: [00:41:16] Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you again. This has been incredible. I think that anybody listening has way more information and information is power in these situations.

And so thank you very much for what you've shared with us today and for anybody listening, if you'd like more information and support on ending an abusive or domestic violence situation of any kind, please visit Starting Over Stronger where I would be happy to have a free discovery call with you to just talk about your situation and to be able to direct you to the resources that will help you to create a safety plan to get out of that scenario.

So thank you so much for listening for being here today. Please share this with someone else who needs to hear it, and we'll see you again next Wednesday with more help as you divorce and hope as you are starting over strong.