The Landscape

National APSE (Association of People Supporting Employment 1st)

October 17, 2021 Naveh Eldar / Erica Belois-Pacer / Kari Tietjen Season 2 Episode 20
The Landscape
National APSE (Association of People Supporting Employment 1st)
Show Notes Transcript

For National Disability Employment Awareness Month, there is no better organization to have on than APSE. This episode covers what Supported Employment is, the meaning and progress of Employment 1st, how APSE supports states, details about their national conference and more.

National APSE Representatives:


APSE Links:
Main Website HERE
Subscribe to APSE Podcast HERE

Links for The Landscape Pages
Link to The Landscape FB Page
Link to The Landscape Instagram Page
Link to sign up News Letter
Link to The Landscape LinkedIn

Naveh Eldar  0:17  
Welcome to the landscape, a podcast to shed light on the people programs and businesses that are changing the landscape for individuals with any type of disability. I'm your host Naveh Eldar. October is National Disability Employment Awareness Month, and there is no better guest to have on than part of the team from National absi apz stands for the Association for people supporting Employment First, and today's guests include Erica Bella's Pacer, who is their professional development director, and khari teachin, who has their certification director. We cover the Employment First movement, the supports and services provided by absi the progress we've made so far and much more before the interview starts if you're new to the landscape, please subscribe, recommend to others, and leave a review on Apple podcast. Now, today's episode starts with my guests introducing themselves and giving a high overview of what supported employment entails.

Kari Tietjen  1:25  
Hi, my name is Kari Tietjen, work with National APSE. And I'm actually in Des Moines, Iowa. So supported employment is a field of work of way of supporting work for people with disabilities. And often there are individuals that are providing accommodations guidance, navigating the employment process with people with disabilities that just need that additional layer of support to be successful in finding and keeping a job. So supported employment is working toward people with disabilities that are employed in their communities at real work for real pay. The outcome and goal is that people are involved in a workplace with their employer and have a meaningful connection to their community.

Erica Belois-Pacer  2:15  
And I am Erica Belois-Pacer, and I am also with National APSE, I'm the professional development director, I actually live in Fairport, New York, which is not New York City, it's more upstate New York. So that's where I'm located. But I would agree with curry just to add in that oftentimes, you know, it looks a little different for each person. It's very individualized in terms of the support that people get, but it could be something like just finding a job, or it could be training and support for a period of time right there at a job site. So I think the goal is to have as many people as possible with, you know, a variety of disabilities in our communities, having in making the same as everybody else in terms of minimum wage, and even more, ideally, so I like to think about careers as well, not just placing somebody in a job for the sake of having a job.

Naveh Eldar  3:16  
And so this Employment First movement, because you're the Association for people supporting Employment First. So when did Employment First start? And why was there even a need to have an employment first movement?

Kari Tietjen  3:30  
Yeah, so absi, our organization was founded in 1988. We were one of the leaders, I say we, you know, looking to the people that started apps in some of these initial people in the field of support employment, there have been initiatives for long times. But what is new is a inspired and reinvigorated approach toward moving people with disabilities into community and out of institutionalized settings. So really, since the 80s, and since then, has been this approach toward people with disabilities are able to work in the community and toward finding their strengths and providing the supports and systems so that they can keep jobs in the community and are not segregated or moved into other settings where they're paid less than minimum wage.

Naveh Eldar  4:21  
So let's talk about that a little bit. If you could elaborate. A lot of my listeners may not know what employment besides competitive integrated employment can look like, what people with disability. So can you talk about other forms of employment that we've seen over the years, including the sub minimum wage model?

Erica Belois-Pacer  4:41  
You know, a lot of times when I do trainings, just kind of taking a step back and like you said, when I was a teacher, I was not aware of what sheltered workshops were, for example, so in many cases, with good intentions, you know, after many institutions were Shut down or phased out, you know, one of the things people tended to do with disabilities was move to maybe some group homes, which at the time, were great, you know, we're moving towards more independent living in terms of that now, but additionally, just having things for people with disabilities to do so, you know, sometimes you hear about de rehab rehabilitation programs, community rehabilitation programs, but additionally having an option in terms of work, so many agencies and providers across our country, you know, opened up or I guess just updated, changed on to have something called a sheltered workshop. So in many cases, there were different contracts, some were federal, some might be state, some might be from local businesses that would contract with agencies to have things made a lot of times that would be piecemeal work, so people would be putting together maybe parts, maybe assembling boxes, I know near me, there were some military contracts where people were cutting and designing maybe foam things or just, you know, sound barrier type things. So just depending on the contract, but the contracts would bring in money to those agencies, you know, which is good, but the people doing the actual work, who were people disabilities traditionally, would only be making a very small amount, usually pennies per hour. So not really benefiting from doing the work in terms of financially. And you know, that's that's kind of where the sheltered workshop situation started. Cory, do you want to add to that?

Kari Tietjen  6:42  
Yeah, I think that Well, I've been really lucky to in my career have only worked with organizations that have been community focused in that, I have never known different either. And as a person who does not experience a disability, or doesn't have a family member, I was coming into this system with no knowledge, but just jumped in to realize, yes, businesses should be hiring everyone. And that is a benefit to have people working at regular businesses with individuals out in the community, instead of being sheltered or, you know, put in a separate place to work where they earn less for doing the same work. So I Yeah, go ahead. No, I

Erica Belois-Pacer  7:27  
was gonna say, um, in car, you made it. Yeah, you explained a little further. So these, the situation with sheltered workshops would be like they were in a separate, kind of isolated location. So not in the community. Moving forward, though, just in terms of other employment for people with disabilities. So kind of in a transition, to try to get folks back into the community or into the community. I always say, I don't like saying the community, because I wouldn't say that about my job. So I apologize for that. But having people go to different places in a group, all the people with disabilities in one group to do a service for perhaps it might be cleaning, that kind of tends to be one of the big ones in a mobile work crew, all together in one place, maybe doing cleaning at night, or, you know, just in a group altogether. So there's different things that people were doing, taking groups of people with disabilities out into a variety of locations to do jobs, again, you know, getting paid, oftentimes not minimum wage below minimum wage, and really just not letting people do things individually. Again, I always say, I really would not want to go with all my neighbors and clean a building together every day. We all have different interests. And we all like to do different things. So looking at what people like to do, and finding those job matches is definitely huge. So

Naveh Eldar  8:57  
I actually presented at a absi conference, I'm not going to call out the state. It was not my state. So I traveled for this. And I asked them, How were their efforts going in the Employment First space, and they admitted that they were one of the lower ranked states in the country, and that they actually had people advocating to not be employment for so to keep these models that you had spoken about how often or widespread Do you see that? And what do you do to try to support a state and moving forward

Kari Tietjen  9:33  
coming from a state Iowa that has had a strong investment in the last 1015 years toward Employment First, I think absi as an organization is really built to provide mentorship models and leadership to other states to share experiences of what has one group done or what is Colorado recently done as a model of Access and pushing some legislation and getting state funding toward Employment First, so that other states can learn and better move their own efforts forward. When there is pushback, often I, when I'm posting about this sharing about it, often people don't even know that people with disabilities are being put in segregated settings or being paid less than minimum wage. And when I share that with my friends, my family, they see it clearly as a civil rights issue. People with disabilities deserve to be paid for real work. And we as a business, you know, as a labor force should be paying people for what they're worth so that they don't stay in poverty. That being said, I think absi very strongly advocates for the network of supports that need to be in place to support people with disabilities. So that in that transition away from older, segregated models less than minimum wage using 14 c certificates, which allow businesses to pay people with disabilities, less than minimum wage, we have to be thoughtful about that transition and process, which is why absi advocates for dollars toward training toward transition toward advocacy. So that's really the absolute approach, we're not exclusionary to those individuals who asked the question, because if you have only ever been told that your son or daughter can't work, or, you know, never been asked about what supports are needed to help them in employment, often it's re envisioning a new future. And that can be really difficult and scary. So I totally get that.

Naveh Eldar  11:47  
And so what do you say to those people? And not just family members, but professionals who are telling the family members, what do you say to teachers and therapists and doctors, if they have a mental health diagnosis that say, this individual shouldn't work? Or, you know, these the puts limitations on them? You know, what is the argument against that?

Erica Belois-Pacer  12:08  
Number, what I just did want to say that, when we talk about Employment First, it does look a little bit different in terms of what that means, in individual states. So you know, we have a map on our website, and it's color coded. So there's certain states that if you look at it, you can see that it has maybe legislative a directive, or an executive order, that same code in Texas might look different than what is happening in Florida. So just as you know, just wanted to mention that, but really, um, so when we look at those things, you know, you have to really look specifically at each state in terms of what they're doing towards Employment First, because even, you know, using the same term, it could look a little bit different in terms of what's happening. So I did want to mention that. Um, so, I think curry, you know, really talked about the fact that we try to meet people where they are, whether it's, you know, a whole state, or a group of people or providers within a state or parents advocates, because as she said, You know, people only know what they've heard and what they've experienced. And we try to, you know, bring other examples. And so, I've had the privilege of working with a variety of states and organizations that really felt comfortable with, you know, more of a workshop style. And as you said, you know, lots of parents and caregivers, you know, are concerned about safety. So, you know, it takes time, I'm really just trying to give that background information and foundation of, you know, why it's important for people, whether or not they have a disability or not to be working with others in our community and choosing what they want to do. You know, what a difference that makes in people's lives. I know Carrie brought up poverty. I feel like I talk constantly about benefits counseling, and the need to take that step. Because I think that can be a barrier for families and just organizations that may be stuck with Well, if they get a job, they're going to lose some of those benefits. So that's a huge thing that really needs to be talked about across the board so that there is, you know, an understanding, so really meeting people where they are providing support and training and examples of other places that have had success in terms of transforming into, you know, people having jobs, just like everybody else is huge and having that mentorship as well.

Kari Tietjen  14:43  
I think you're asking the important questions, though, about those professionals that maybe for 30 years have been working in one setting and are asked to reinvent their work into a different way that supports a different model. And that takes time that Takes conversation that takes training and supports from all levels. So, like Erica said, we just can keep sharing stories, resources, and encourage folks to keep learning more as this process happens, the movement is happening. People are, you know, advocating for themselves, we see this ad a generation of kids born in 1990, or so and sense that are advocating for employment and recognize their rights. So I think it's happening, how fast it's happening. And,

Erica Belois-Pacer  15:38  
yeah, it looks different. It looks different everywhere. And, you know, we just have to figure out, how can we stay positive? How can we, you know, essentially change hearts and minds for people that maybe aren't there yet? And how can we influence and help them see what an amazing opportunity is for people to, you know, have options and work where they want to work and have careers. So yeah, it is hard.

Kari Tietjen  16:05  
And then you'll see positive health outcomes too, from employment, right health and wellness. So a person has generally, especially the mental illness, you you discussed, you know, if a doctor is advocating against, I would encourage them to do some reading about some of the positive health impacts of going to work having community and creating stability and consistency in the outcome of that mental health diagnosis as well. So

Naveh Eldar  16:34  
I have to say that Erica is much nicer than I am. And I was, I was at a meeting, it was a community meeting and over program here in Tennessee called employment community first choices, and we have an expectation to work for the people that we serve. So it's beyond just a recommendation as to expectation. And so I was given my schpeel and I'm very passionate about it. And, and I believe everybody can work. And I believe you know, it's healthy for everybody. And it like you said, it gets you out of poverty, it's social, you have more socialization is better mental health, everything. So the mom came up to me after this meeting, and was like, you know, now, vai, you don't know how nice it was to hear that because your support coordinator who was the person for our MC Oh, who, who speaks to the member directly, had convinced her son to, to do a little discovery about employment, not to get a job, but let's, let's do some discovery services to see what you might like and all these things. So he went to his teacher excited that he might get a job. And his teacher said what you'll never work like his so the mom was telling me this because she was so hurt, that, that she took her son's self esteem and kind of, you know, in any way, but I reached out to we have a strong relationship with our board of education here, our Department of Education here, and we talked about it and and let me tell you, that is not typical. This is like a rare occurrence where we hear things like that, but it's the point is it's still out there. And to your point, we have to advocate and educate and and sometimes report to somebody's supervisor, that they're saying these things, so it can stop.

Erica Belois-Pacer  18:20  
Yeah, and actually, you know, before I was with nationally FC, that I was actually I worked with vocational rehab in the state of New York, and I provided training and resources for about 82 school districts in the state of New York, and options for students after high school with disabilities. And I think a lot of times, it really is just not knowing what's available out there. And that there are options, I used to be a special ed teacher and I know that the goal was, you know, to get kids to graduate, there seemed to be just such a focus on that, that there wasn't a long term plan in terms of you know, what's going to happen after now I will say, um, you know, with students that may not be going into a different field like for they would use vocational training or something like that college, there seems to be a steady stream and information for students that would be going directly to college, but trying to change that. So there's options for you know, apprenticeship, work based learning, there's so many things that are available that, you know, doesn't just have to be college and you know, people could always go later to so I think it's not having the resources and not always knowing what's available. I know this is similar, but in our state there was like a form that would be filled out by families and parents two years prior to exiting High School. And the first choice on that form. It's a transition form was Dahab, and we were like, why would that be the first choice because that's where parents thinking, well, I need something for my kid to do eight hours a day while we're working. So We did work to have that changed. And instead it was work, work based instead of having it just be Dahab. So I don't know small changes like that kind of have an impact, for sure.

Naveh Eldar  20:13  
But I love that you guys recognize the funding sources and working kind of from the top bottom because where the money is, is what people will do. And so I've actually been in, not from Tennessee originally, but I've been here long enough to see that transition to see our vocational rehabilitation program say we are no longer going to support this type of employment, we're only going to support integrated competitive employment. And and then our other wavers did the same thing. So So yeah, difficult transition. For some providers, it was an easy transition for other providers. But like you said, we got to meet them where they were, and just kind of explain things and give them data. And it's I think it's going really well in my state at the moment around employment. What does your national office do for states, like you're talking about right now. And then you also have state chapters. So what do the state chapters of absi do

Kari Tietjen  21:07  
absi as an organization, I think is made so much more powerful by the fact that it is membership based and state chapters come together, because members want to create their own grassroots movement made up of professionals, families, advocates, teachers, you know, it really spans this wide spectrum, because both disability and employment are topics that cover almost every American. So really focusing on it as a grassroots movement. absi, as a national organization is here to both provide structure and support to our state chapters, help facilitate discussion between them resource sharing, and build up our leaders to so that it continues as a movement throughout the year, the program that I actually manage and was how I came in to absi is the certified employment support professional credential. And that is a professional level credential for individuals working with people with disabilities and employers and businesses. So job coaches, job developers, workforce trainers, they go by so many different names. But the CSP credential is just that stamp of approval that mark that they are committed to their field, they've gone through the credential process, and it's then an option for people with disabilities and their families. In thinking about Who do you want to work with, to help you find employment and CSP is are one of those professional level credentials that shows individuals Yes, this person has gone through rigorous training has been accredited, and every three years, they have to update their knowledge. So that's one of our tools as well in guiding the field and guiding services so that they're provided at a consistent level. In any transformational change to a system, there has to be guideposts, and, you know, those lines of what services look like. So that's one of those tools as well.

Naveh Eldar  23:15  
And there's also a level of experience, you need to take the CISSP exam, is that correct? So how long do you have to be doing this type of work before you can even sit for the exam,

Kari Tietjen  23:25  
you have to be doing it at least nine months to one year. So that work experience is really spent on the job with businesses and employers with people with disabilities, their families and teams, learning the day to day because when you think about employment, it just touches so many different parts of our lives and the complexities of benefits of if I start working, my SSI check may be reduced. So having that knowledge of being able to approach different situations is learned on the job. That's why that nine months to one year is required for the credential

Naveh Eldar  24:03  
just for my listeners. So again, employment community first choices is relatively new in Tennessee, it's about five years old, a little more. But when they when they developed it, they were very intentional on the training that was required for individuals for our job developers and job coaches. And it's strict. And let me say that they chose national certified trainings that are that our acre, we call them acre trainings. And they were even very specific about which acre trainings you can take. So they were extremely careful around making sure that these were high quality trainings, and the CSP was included in that. So if somebody I'm saying all this to say how much value is seen in that certification nationally, so if somebody has the CSP certification, they don't have to go through those Aker trainings. So Anyways, just a kudos to, to the, you know, exam and process that you guys put together, which I think is amazing. So you talked about membership, what are the types of memberships? I was perusing your website? And I see there's different types of memberships. So what are the different types? And what are the benefits of being a member,

Erica Belois-Pacer  25:19  
I did want to say, I don't know how much we mentioned about state chapters. But you know, we do have many states that are either current chapters, there's a couple that are in development. So you know, we're always encouraging states that may not have a chapter to you know, reach out, and we can help them you know, try to get that process started. I know last year, we were able to do that with a few different states. So, like you said, that is on our website, I would definitely refer people to take a look and see if they have a state chapter there. But additionally, in terms of benefits, you know, that's probably a lot of what my job is, if you remember, you know, not only do you have that partnership with your state, but you also get things from national in terms of policy updates that are happening, gosh, as soon as new things are announced, our executive director, Julie Christiansen gets information alerts out emails, she also has monthly meetings and updates on policy that is happening across our country, if people have certain questions that relate to their state, she usually has a way to find that information out as well. So I know with COVID, there were frequent updates, that were impactful to you know, folks across the country. So that is a huge benefit in my mind the information that she provides, because most people don't have time to read bills and everything that is happening in our government. And she kind of pairs it down to the important stuff, and a user friendly way that everybody can understand. So I love that. Additionally, we typically have about four webinars each month. And you know, there are a variety of things, typically, we try to have something that our members have specifically asked for each month, we also have something called research to practice, it's a series that we're doing with the Journal of vocational rehab, where we have people that have published articles and manuscripts, talking about the research and how it can actually be applied in the field for employment support professionals in an easy to understand way, because that would be another member FEM drifit, if you are a member, you have access to the Journal of vocational rehab. So that's huge. Additionally, gosh, there's lots and lots of benefits. Um, so lots of professional development. You know, a lot of things are available if you're not a member, but it's significantly less than cost or free. Often if you are a member. So that's huge. We have our conference that happens in June every year, and Yay, we're gonna be in Denver, Colorado,

Naveh Eldar  28:02  
this is going to be in person this year,

Erica Belois-Pacer  28:05  
we are going to be in person, yes, her capacity will be a little smaller, so that we're cognizant of, you know, COVID protocol and being sure that there's social distancing and everything, but we will be in Denver, yay. Additionally, we will have like a hybrid option for folks that aren't able to travel and can't be there for a variety of reasons. So that will be in place as well, because I think, you know, that showed us COVID showed us that there are things that you know we can do, and how we can be more accessible for everybody. So that's another thing, you get a pretty significant discount on our conference if you're a member. Additionally, we have many different groups that you can join, we have a pre outs collaborative group that people from across the country meet monthly, and we have presentations and updates to support providers and agencies that are both new to perhaps providing those services and who have been successful and are willing to share their knowledge and curriculums and just resources. So that's one thing, we have the CSP group that meets frequently, a great resource as well. So just yeah, it's and I would say overall, just having the ability to communicate network with people that are doing similar things in similar situations is huge. So we're also going to be having some regional events. So our chapters are all state chapters are part of different regions. And we have surveyed the regions to find out what specific needs they have. And we'll be doing some kind of mini conferences this spring, virtually for our regionals. So yeah, lots of exciting things. Did I forget anything curry?

Kari Tietjen  29:54  
Well, I think you asked about the different types of membership too. So there's both individual and And business memberships. So if you're a business who wants to have 810 or 12 plus people on your membership, there's an option that makes a lot of sense financially for you to do it in bulk, or individuals, as professionals can join, we have some discounts both for current csps as well as for students and advocates. So we welcome anyone as a member if you want to join, that's really how we stay solvent as an organization and can keep doing our work because chapters are doing so much of it. I think people don't always realize we're a team of six at the national level, and we thankfully get to work all spread out throughout the country. And we're involved with different chapters in different ways too.

Naveh Eldar  30:47  
So if I understand you correctly, and I don't want to gloss over it, you don't have to work in this field, to be a member, you don't have to be, you can be appear with a disability, you can be a family member. Support, okay.

Kari Tietjen  31:00  
And if you aren't a member, and you want to receive our email updates, we send out a ton of information about the benefits that Erica was mentioning our upcoming events, you can always sign up for emails on our website to but as a member, you get those discounts, which it really adds up to pay for the membership throughout the year. In addition to just being a consistent supporter of this movement toward Employment First.

Naveh Eldar  31:26  
And the last thing that I want to ask about, but I am going to ask if there's anything that I missed that you guys want to highlight is your conference, I've actually had the pleasure of being at your conference a few times. So so if you can explain how was the conference set up? Who was for whether the different tracks Did you have at the conference? because like you said, you can have people there who are parents compared to somebody who's a job developer?

Kari Tietjen  31:51  
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm glad that you've been able to enjoy the conference, because some people refer to it as absi summer camp for the vibe that it gives off. People love coming. And you know, it's really this inclusive group of folks that want to talk about employment. And how do we support that for everyone. One of the highlights, of course, is always our absi karaoke, which is so much fun in the evening, usually led by one of our board members, his name is Wally out of Washington. But I remember that as my like, first experience, I went to the conference, and then the next and I missed karaoke. And the next year, I was on staff and I went to it. And just seeing everyone dancing together. You know, regardless of where you come from, who you are, the dance and song brought us together. So join us, Denver, for that fun experience. But the conference is set up as upcoming a three day event in Denver and really focused both for professionals, which is the main constituency main group of attendees are those professionals who are looking for day to day job skills, and training. But we certainly welcome people with disabilities themselves to share their stories and their families and people impacted by their life. That always makes the content so much richer, discussion richer. So we just Welcome everyone to join that conference. And especially with a virtual option, I'm really excited about being able to bring that hybrid approach to our work, where in the past, it's always been in person, and that excludes a certain population of people, particularly people with disabilities. If you have a chronic illness, you don't know when it will flare up. So hopefully moving forward, this will be an even more all encompassing event, because we can invite people from all over.

Naveh Eldar  33:47  
Right? Do you guys know who the keynote speaker is going to be coming in? Well, we

Kari Tietjen  33:54  
loved our 2021 speakers. They were fabulous. So we had Jim Warren, who is from the Pine Ridge Reservation area in South Dakota, but grew up as a football player and now as a documentary maker, and also has his feet wet in the disability and employment arena. So just those messages coming together, we found was really impactful for our members who often are not taught that history in the American education system. So when thinking about how they're working with different systems, it's so important to have that history, particularly for the Native American experience. So love to that one personally, but me Stay tuned for 2022

Naveh Eldar  34:39  
and you seem to always have really good keynote speakers like they never disappoint you. I sometimes wonder how did they get all these people? But of course I know because you're an amazing organization. Have I missed anything that you wanted to touch on?

Kari Tietjen  34:53  
Well, I think if this has been published in October, same Happy National Disability At Employment Awareness Month, we love talking about it, especially in October, but year round absi is an organization working toward that.

Naveh Eldar  35:08  
Yeah, absolutely. And I am going to work very hard to get it out this month, because it's important. We talked about that when we were setting this up is we need to get this out in October so we can celebrate anything else. Erica?

Erica Belois-Pacer  35:21  
Gosh, I don't think so. Um, you know, join us, we have been able to do quite a few of our own podcasts on this, this month, trying to highlight people with disabilities that have found, you know, success with employment. So I would encourage people to check those out. And I know that we've been highlighting a variety of people, not just people with disabilities, but also employment support professionals this month. So I would say take a look at our social media and our blog and kind of see what's happening.

Naveh Eldar  35:54  
I understand you have your own podcast, is that correct? We do. So what's the name of it, and I will put a link in the description as well.

Kari Tietjen  36:01  
It's the app see Employment First employment for all podcast, if you search the word AP s E, we will come up with our logo. So check that out. We will.

Naveh Eldar  36:13  
All right. And I always end with just a silly, fun question. And so we will start with Chari. And today's question is, people always be so nervous. I know. Every single time It never fails. And I'm like they're really innocent questions. What fictional family would you most like to join? And why? So they could be from a novel or a movie or a play. I don't care.

Kari Tietjen  36:45  
This was surprisingly easy right now. So my thought was, I'm an only child. I grew up and you know, as an only child, but I grew up watching the sound of music, and feeling so connected to each of those siblings. And as I've grown up, it's like, yeah, they were badass humans that both sang, and fought against Nazis and refuse to let their country fall to that. So I'm like, yeah, Sound of Music. I will join the Von Trapps. I can't sing very well. But do you know that they're real? They're real, of course. So I mean, fictionalized through the movie, and they

Erica Belois-Pacer  37:21  
have a place. Yeah. And they're

Naveh Eldar  37:23  
living here in the United States. And they're still performing their grandchildren or great grandchildren. Whatever.

Erica Belois-Pacer  37:29  
Forget trying to think are they in New York or Vermont? I can't remember I did.

Kari Tietjen  37:33  
They were in Vermont. I read Maria von Trapps biography isn't all the things too. So. Wow.

Naveh Eldar  37:39  
You are a serious that was an easy question for

Erica Belois-Pacer  37:42  
you. I'm sitting here thinking that sounds good. I would agree with that curry and everything you just said. So I don't know that I was thinking about The Incredibles maybe I don't

Kari Tietjen  37:51  
know. You're already a part of The Incredibles Erica is like Superwoman, and that she is so involved in so many different things. She's really a strong advocate in many different ways. So yeah, and there's a carry in that movie. Did you know that I did. The babysitter? Yeah,

Naveh Eldar  38:14  
she was awesome. That poor that poor young lady. Well, look, thank you so much. There's lots of things I want to thank you for, for taking the time to come on the show for the work that you do for the passion that you have. And it's not easy work. I know firsthand, this is not easy work. But it needs to be done. And it's so rewarding. And you guys do it so well. So hopefully I'll be able to jump in the conference. And if not, it'll be next year for sure. That's it just thank you for for being with me. Yeah, thank you. find links to the absi website and their podcast in the episode description. Make sure to follow the landscape on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter. I have been saying all year that I will be focusing on diversity in every form. That is diversity from different types of disabilities, bringing guests from different countries and so on. However, I'm going to another level of diversity in my next episode, when I interview staff from Clearwater Marine Aquarium, who has been working for years with injured and disabled marine life, most notably winter, who still living happily there today. Many of you may know the story of winter from the movie, a Dolphin Tale, which starred winter herself, Morgan Freeman and Harry Connick Jr. I had the chance to visit Clearwater Marine Aquarium a few months ago, and the work they do there is amazing, and they have impacted the lives of both disabled marine life and people all over the world. Listen to the next episode to learn how. I'll see you then.