Colonel Linda Murnane v. The World (Part Two)

In the second part of the interview, Linda speaks about the remainder of her career in the United States Air Force, as well as her work once her time in the service comes to an end. It's a remarkable career and life, that has Linda witnessing the impacts of genocide in Africa, war crimes in Europe and disappearances in South America. Both at home and abroad, Col. Linda Murnane has been fighting for justice and human rights with skill, passion and relentlessness. Oh, and she somehow meets some famous gorillas along the way as well. I personally would call her a hero, and she certainly is a role model who wants all of us to make the world a better place in any way we can. 

Transcript

Host - Naveh Eldar  0:17  
Welcome to the landscape, a podcast to shed light on the people, programs and businesses that are changing the landscape for individuals with any type of disability. I'm your host Naveh Eldar. The first part of Linda mornings interview was my most downloaded episode over a three day period, which is a testament to her work and career. I've received texts and emails about it, and I always respond the same way. Wait until the second part. Before we start, make sure to subscribe to the podcast and share your favorite episodes with others. And now to the second installment, which begins with Linda speaking about her first overseas assignment. And when she first discovered her passion for other cultures.

Linda Murnane  1:06  
My first overseas assignment as a member of the Air Force came in 1988. That's actually pretty unusual. That's 14 years that I served all in the United States. And that's actually pretty rare. I don't know that many people who have served 14 years stateside never gone overseas. But in 1988, the Air Force sent me to Yokota Air Base, Japan. And from Yokota Air Base, Japan, I went to Ramstein Air Base Germany, neither of those assignments were necessarily what I chose for myself, it's what the air force needed at the time. But it was it was an important step. And I needed to have that overseas time if I was going to make the Air Force a long term career. And once I actually had the opportunity to go to Japan, once I actually had the opportunity to live in Germany, I really became enamored with learning about other cultures learning about other people now I had always had an interest in in the international arena. When I was in high school. The summer between my sophomore and junior year in high school, I had asked my parents to send me to summer semester abroad. I was studying Spanish, English and French or Spanish, Latin and French, in addition to English. In high school, when we were younger, still, I had gone with my parents on a family vacation to New York, in a 12 foot travel trailer was six of us. It was pretty. It was pretty well budget. But anyway, we we went to New York and we had gone to the United Nations. And I had this fascination from the time that we went on that trip and with the United Nations. And so I thought that I wanted to be a linguist when I was in high school. And so I was studying all these languages. Well, I'm not talented enough to be a linguist. And I have such great admiration, respect for people who are linguists, and I don't have that skill, although I tried very hard to develop it. And that's why I was studying in high school English, Spanish and French. And you may say, Well, well, you no big deal. You study Spanish, French and Latin. So I had I had basically four languages in high school. And I have to tell you, I know now, you know, kids are probably laughing if they hear this because they're like, Oh, I studied Arabic and Chinese. And well, they didn't offer Arabic and Chinese when I was in high school, you know? So I was taking every language they had on the menu available. Yeah. And so I really wanted to be a linguist and I asked my parents to send me to summer semester abroad. And so,

Unknown Speaker  3:55  
you know, that just tells you how little I understood about what the family financial picture was because my parents could no more afford to send me to summer semester, right. I mean, their idea of summer semester abroad would have been a trip from Cincinnati to Dayton or from Nashville to Memphis, you know, I mean, that's how much money they had. So the idea that they were going to send me to Spain for three months, you know, was like crazy, really crazy talk. So, but my mom was resourceful. And she found a program where she could scrape up 100 bucks for a roundtrip air ticket from Cincinnati, Ohio to Phoenix, Arizona, which is what it costs back then. Coach, of course, student fair of coolers, then strangers would pick her daughter up in Arizona and take her to Mexico for the summer. And that sounded like a pretty good deal to my mother. And my return was probably optional at that point, you know, cuz I was like, 16 and, you know, whatever. And so I went to Mexico for three months, between my sophomore and junior year in high school and I worked in the body OS and the I he loves teaching basic literacy skills in some of the poor slum communities in Mexico as part of the VISTA extension program, and so I had this wanderlust for a long time. And then Japan just kind of reawakened it, so to speak. And then from there to go to Germany, which was, I mean, Germany was just spectacular. The opportunity to be in Germany for three years was spectacular. And then when I came back from Germany, that's when they made me a judge. And at that point, I had 20 years in service. I had been a jag lawyer for the Air Force, a jag Judge Advocate for 13 years. And I had somehow managed to stay out of Washington DC, which is, you know, most people who are in the work i a lot of work that I do have had at least one tour in Washington DC. By that time, and I was not a big fan of being in and around Pentagon or, you know, the busy center of the Department of Defense. I much prefer being out on the road. Well, when you become a judge, you are on the road, all the time you ride a circuit, okay, you don't sit at a base, it's not like you go to the county courthouse. And every morning, you know, you do 100 cases, which is what our our judges do, and day in and day out with, and I have great respect for them and admire them for it. In the Department of Defense, and in the Air Force. In particular, if you're a judge, you get on a plane on Monday and you fly to one of the 22 bases in your jurisdiction. Somewhere in my first assignment was at a Randolph Air Force Base in Texas, so separate United States. So my jurisdiction, I would go to one of 22 bases anywhere from Canada, to Mexico, east to the east to Dayton, Ohio, and Western New Mexico. Any Air Force installation in that area was a base that I might be sent to that week to hear cases. Okay. And so I was on the road constantly then for the first three years on the bench. And then the next three years, I was stationed out of Washington, DC my ability to avoid Washington, DC had ended. My second tour is a judge. When I was in Washington, DC, my jurisdiction was Maine to Miami, West to St. Louis south to Biloxi, Mississippi, and I had the Panama Canal Zone. And so I did three years of traveling every week to one of the 20 or 25 installations in that jurisdiction. And then I got the best job in the entire universe. I became the chief trial judge for the United States Air Force in Europe. Oh, nice. And so I was stationed back at Ramstein Air Base in Germany. But I had to pick was I going to go to the AES doors today was I going to go to the United Kingdom today when I scheduled a trial in Turkey? Or with my, my other judge because I had a deputy? Would he go to Turkey? Would I go to Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq, where would I go next? So I was every week go into some fabulous new place, learning more about the culture, seeing more people learning more about them. And while I was in that role as the chief judge, for Europe, Chief circuit military judge for Europe, I got a call from a colleague, my boss, actually a guy named john powers, saying, hey, Linda, how would you like to go to Latvia, with the US Defense Institute for International legal studies as an adjunct professor for a week? And to be completely honest with you, I knew a lot about geography. I know where Latvia was. I didn't even know where Latvia was. But I was like, Yeah, I'd love to go to Latvia.

Unknown Speaker  9:05  
Get on the computer and try to find out where Latvia was, I'd love to go to Latvia. And he said, Well, you weren't their first choice. And I said, Well, you know, that's the story of my life. I was never anybody's first choice, right. And he said, and you weren't the second choice. I said, Okay. Well, I was, you know, often not the second choice either. And I said, he said, but but you are the last choice. And I said, Why? I'm so pleased you thought to call me and so I went to Latvia as an adjunct instructor for the US defenses to for international legal studies. And I did well at that, and they invited me to go on these other opportunities, which is how what led me to go to Rwanda following the genocide. They needed someone who could speak to the issues that the now combined to see who to military wanted to Talk about which involve free speech and free press. Well, remember that back there when I started my Air Force career, and I had been a journalist, so I knew about free speech and free press. And I knew about journalistic guidelines. And I knew about all of the things that they would want to talk about public affairs officers want to talk about, I knew the law side. And I knew the journalism side. And so I was a logical fit for the first program that the Rwandans wanted after the genocide and after the sanction period followed it. And they only had to send one of me as opposed to two other people, because otherwise they would have had to send a Public Affairs Specialist and the lawyer, I could cover two roles at the same time, and it was still quite dangerous to be in Rwanda at the time. So I was there with a team of four people, there were still four folks there and the great people that I had the opportunity to work with. But I had kind of that dual perspective that made me the the candidate that really got my foot in the door, at the US defenses to for international legal studies. And they truly sent me everywhere. I mean, they sent me to Zambia, they sent me to Liberia, they sent me to Argentina to work with it disappeared in the military related to the disappeared. And so that, that just kind of really poured gasoline on that fire, that passion I'd had all along. And so I was interested in once I would achieve the end of my Air Force career and continuing to do that kind of work. And, and now I had what I thought was a skill set that would enable me to do that. So I left the Air Force in 2004. Because I hit the 30 year mark, and for other reasons, complicated reasons. One of those reasons about misogyny that we talked about before. And so I left in 2004. But I would have been leaving in any of that within six months of the time that I chose to exit. But I believe that everything in life happens for a reason, I absolutely believe that everything in life happens for a reason. And if I had not left when I did, then the opportunities that followed probably would not have occurred in the sequence that they did. And so when I left the Air Force in 2004, I first spent six months as the felony prosecutor in a small rural county in Ohio, where I was doing as many methamphetamine cases as I had fingers and toes because it was rural. And it was an impoverished time and folks were doing a lot of things with their farmland that they wouldn't otherwise have done, I think if they had been in a better financial position. Sure. So I was doing a lot of methamphetamine cases, a lot of domestic violence and felony prosecutions for things like that. And an opportunity came up to interview for a position on the staff of the governor of the Commonwealth of Kentucky now, I had never lived in Kentucky, and know the governor and know anybody in Kentucky,

Unknown Speaker  13:07  
right.

Unknown Speaker  13:09  
But I was selected after a nationwide search as the executive director of the state Human Rights Commission for the Commonwealth of Kentucky. And I lead an incredible team of about 24 folks fluctuated a few on either side, but 24 folks who are responsible for investigating and enforcing civil and human rights violations of citizens across the Commonwealth of Kentucky in 118 counties with 24 people. If you can imagine what the volume of the workload might be there, right. And now I was back into my passion work, I was doing things that advance the cause of justice. I was helping individuals, there was no charge for the services that they would get from my office or from our our team. And we would litigate their rights in front of either an administrative board or in front of the courts in some instances. And I was the executive director, so I had the budgetary and the and the legislative liaison and all by the public affairs piece, and I supervised all of that. And while I was in that job,

Unknown Speaker  14:21  
the telephone rang.

Unknown Speaker  14:24  
Now, when I had been in Rwanda, which I talked about earlier, yeah. I had called my husband when I came home from Rwanda, just in tears. I had been to five of the genocide sites while I was there. I had seen things that you just can't even imagine. And there wasn't anyone I met. When I was in Rwanda, who had not lost a family member in the genocide. There wasn't anyone. There wasn't anyone who had not had A Tutsi or Hutu family member killed in the genocide. And I told my husband, I said, I, I am so moved by what happened here. And I said, I just feel called to come back here and work. I just can't even tell you how swept up, I was by the calling that I felt to that work. And so when I got back, I get this phone call. And it's my former deputy, when I was the chief trial judge in Europe, his name is Wade. And he said, Hey, Linda, this is Wade, how would you like to come to the Hague, which is in the Netherlands? How would you like to come to the Hague for 90 days to take over the complex litigation of the War Crimes Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. And when I got that call, I actually thought this must be like Candid Camera. Like, there must be like, a hidden camera cuz I couldn't, I just couldn't believe it. And I said, All I said was, I didn't say, you know, how much does the job pay? how, you know, is there any chance that would be for longer than 90 days? You know, I didn't ask any of that. I just said, Yeah, Wade,

Unknown Speaker  16:17  
when do you need me?

Unknown Speaker  16:20  
And let me call my husband, and let me call the governor. And I'll get right back to you. That's all I said. Right. I didn't even and I have to tell you that in thinking back on that conversation. I'm not even sure I understood what it was I would be doing. If it was like, what does it mean to take over the complex litigation chamber? The War Crimes Tribunal? I don't even know what that means. I mean, I didn't ask any questions about the job. It was just like, Yes, I'll be there. So. And that goes back to what I told you earlier, which is I'm an ordinary person who takes those extraordinary moments of opportunity that come knocking at the door. And I don't hesitate, and I go, and I just go, and that's exactly what I did.

Unknown Speaker  17:06  
Wow. That's amazing. So I need to back up, because I know we spoke about it earlier that you have had your considered 80% disabled by the military, and much of that, if not all of it happened while you were serving. And so were those when you were on assignments, as we said to some of these places that weren't as safe as other places,

Unknown Speaker  17:30  
somewhere. And some were just routine. One of the things I did not excel in, in high school or in college was gym. Okay, I'm not an athlete, and never have been an athlete. And the military has some very stringent physical fitness requirements. And I'm not good at those. It was just one of the other things I wasn't really good at. And so I would do what I needed to do to meet their fitness requirements. But I would injure myself all the time. I'm just not much of an athlete. And so, I had by the time I got out of the Air Force in 2004, I had had five knee operations, including a patellar tendon graft on my left knee from a torn ACL smcl. And having torn both meniscus and my left knee. I had had both shoulders reconstructed, one of them had been injured while I was in Rwanda. And the other one had been injured in an assault that I suffered while I was on active duty. I had had both feet operated on. And when I came back from Rwanda, I actually had a very, very serious medical internal medicine problem that nearly killed me. In fact, at one point, I thought I was going to go directly from the active duty list to the liver transplant waiting list. Because I was so sick, and I was at Walter Reed, when I came back from Rwanda. I was at at Walter Reed in April of 2004. And I retired one June 2004. So I mean, I was really sick by the time I retired, my knee injuries and surgeries, and my shoulder injuries and surgeries led to my being medically considered for medical discharge or medical retirement by the Air Force. And I had to meet what they call a medical evaluation board twice while I was on active duty. And I had to meet a physical evaluation board twice while I was on active duty, and they were going to kick me out because of my medical conditions. And because of my children's prior existing medical conditions, they would have lost their active duty dependent medical care benefits if I had gotten discharged and I couldn't do that. Because at the time, prior existing conditions, if I got out and I tried to get Insurance from a private insurer. The medical conditions that my children had suffered with might not be covered. And I just couldn't do that. So somehow I just had to make it happen. And kind of the story of my life, I had to make it happen, it happened, right. So I mean, just work hard, find ways, the air force required, at the time that you'd be able to run a mile and a half in 13 minutes. I couldn't run a mile and a half in 13 minutes, anytime I was in the Air Force, and I can't run a mile and a half in 13 minutes now. But I found a way to pass the physical fitness test the one day a year that I had to do it. So that I didn't get kicked out because my kids needed a mom that had medical insurance because their dad was permanently and totally disabled. And, and that was what had to happen. So that's what I did

Unknown Speaker  20:55  
that, I mean, that just colors everything. For me, it colors, everything. Because you know, a lot of people can feel defeated at times. And it's like every step of your life, you could have had an excuse to slow or at least slow down. And it seems like you almost speed up when you hit obstacles in your way. You know, your thing is like, don't, don't hit the brakes at this obstacle. I'm gonna, like blow through it as fast as possible. And so now you're retired from the military, and you have a job where you can be at home and stable and in your community. And now you're running off to work for United Nations. For 90 days, yeah, but I believe it turned into more than that. Is that is that accurate? Okay, and how did that happen?

Unknown Speaker  21:43  
So when I got to the, this is going to be a recurring theme. Okay. So when I got to the United Nations, this was a dream come true. So how many dreams come true? Have you heard in the story several right said Atlanta. Yes. It's a great gift, my law degree, become a lawyer become a judge become the chief judge in Europe all all dreams come true. Right, right. And now I'm at the UN Oh, my gosh, I, I can't tell you. In words, I don't have words, to describe the feeling the day I walked in to the International Criminal Tribunal. For the former Yugoslavia, it was even now when I talk about it, I get goosebumps on my arms. It, it was such an achievement to be there. And such a gift to be eligible to do that important work. Now, if you if you know a little bit about the Yugoslavia tribunal. At the end, when when the former Yugoslavia fell apart. There was ethnic cleansing, there was genocide, there were so many people whose lives were destroyed by the murder by the rape by the pillaging of their villages by just these horrible, horrible acts that occurred between people who at one time been friends and neighbors and relatives just like what I saw in Rwanda. And because the condition of the countries that became separate, again, following the fall of Yugoslavia was not such that they could really have a tool to hold people accountable. The international tribunal was organized to try all of the perpetrators, the most serious perpetrators, okay? The value of that work and to be honored enough to leave the teams to do that work was an immense privilege and immense privilege. And I had two years where I was the senior legal officer for complex litigation, that meant that there were six defendants or the judgment was being issued in French. Now, I was not fluent in French when I got there, but I had to draft in French and I had to speak in French, so I just had to do it.

Unknown Speaker  24:14  
Wow. And so

Unknown Speaker  24:16  
I hired a tutor. And I went to classes on the weekends and because that's what the job required. So it had to be done in French. So I did it in French. So I was supposed to be there for 90 days because I was supposed to be a replacement for a woman who had been on long term maternity leave. And after 90 days, she didn't come back. And so they asked me if I would stay well, I was still the executive director of the Kentucky Commission on Human Rights when I went to the Hague. And I was actually running the commission at night. Because in The Hague, I was six hours ahead. And so after I would get off work at at The Hague, which would be Around 730 or eight o'clock, it would only be one o'clock back in Kentucky so I could get on the computer. And I could work with my staff and I was still running the commission from the Hague. So I was doing both jobs for the first three months. And then when the UN said, Would you consider staying, I really had to make a decision for what was best for my team back at in Kentucky. That was also very important work, but also for what was best for me, for my family and for the UN. And I just loved the work I was doing with the UN. That's not to say I didn't love the work I was doing in Kentucky. But sure, it was just something really enormous about the work I was doing at the UN that led me to resign from the Commission on Human Rights, allow them to get really an excellent replacement, john Johnson took over as the executive director there, he's extraordinary. And I stayed on at the UN. And they only offered me short extensions, because they don't have the budget to be able to offer you like a year long contract when you're replacing somebody who's on maternity leave, because they're also paying the person who's on maternity leave. And so they had to see what decisions she and her medical team were going to make before they could offer me another contract. So I basically worked for two years on three months at a time, which was challenging because I had three kids in college at the time I have my two daughters, I also had a foster daughter that I was helping get through college. So I had three that I was putting through college on three month promises at a time that I'd have a paycheck. So that was a bit of a challenge, but and so at the end of two years of three months at a time, I really kind of put my foot down and said, Look, I've done 100% of the cases done in French, because you told me I needed to do in French, I'm doing eight cases at this tribunal. And I'm leading teams for eight different proceedings that are going on at this tribunal. And that's more than most of my colleagues were dealing with, and they had permanent contracts. And I said, either need to get me a permanent contract, or I need to be finding something else to do well, about that time the US Defense Institute for International Legal Studies, which had sent me to Rwanda, which had sent me to Latvia, it sent me to Zambia, it sent me to all these other really great places. They were hiring a senior international attorney back at Newport, Rhode Island. And so I put my name in the hopper for that got hired to that position. So we left the Hague after two years, went to Rhode Island, where I was then the senior international attorney, I was responsible for curriculum design training, for all the program opportunities, I would organize the training teams, of which I had been a member before Well, now I was organizing them or my team was organizing them. And I was in that position for about six months, when the United Nations called and said, what would it take for us to bring you back?

Unknown Speaker  28:22  
And I said, Well, it would take the same thing

Unknown Speaker  28:25  
that I told you it would take for me not to leave. And that would be to give me a permanent contract. I'm not going to be on these three months interim, you know, do this for three months. And I said, and I'm not going to do 100% of the cases in French because that was hard. For me. It was really challenging, right? for lots of different reasons. I loved becoming fluent in another language. But it was not easy for me. And so let it be said Let it be done. At the nine month point, I was back at the UN in a permanent position. As in a different role. I was no longer working in chambers. I was now the chief of court management. So I had about 15 or 20 people working for me running the day to day court operations in three courtrooms, in three languages, and doing all of the filing as basically the evidence custodian, the clerk of courts, and I had teams multi language teams that were working for me and I was really a supervisor, I mean, primarily for my supervisory skills. Right. And and while I was in that role, they asked me if I would be interested in taking on the position of acting head of chambers. And I said only if I don't have to leave my court management team. So for three months, I was dual fattened as the acting head of chambers and the Chief of court management. And then they came back to me later and said, Would you Be willing to take on the role of Acting Deputy registrar. And I said only if I don't have to leave my court management team, which meant they didn't have to hire replacement. For me, I was running both operations. And so for four and a half months, I was also the Acting Deputy registrar and the Chief of court management. And when I was the Acting Deputy registrar, I asked the registrar one time, how many people did I have functional responsibility for? And he said about 400, about 400, including the detention unit for everything all over the place where all the alleged war criminals were being housed while they were being tried.

Unknown Speaker  30:41  
And I did that until December 2012.

Unknown Speaker  30:45  
And in December 2012, I became aware of some things that are going on that were unacceptable to me. Specifically having to do with individuals who were being asked by senior officials to exchange personal favors.

Unknown Speaker  31:05  
very personal favors, right,

Unknown Speaker  31:08  
for promotions and continued contracts. And when I found that out, I confronted the official that I thought was most responsible for, for the behavior and also for stopping the behavior. And when he refused to take action, I said, Well, I'm going to tell you right now, that's it, I quit. And I left, I walked

Unknown Speaker  31:34  
out that day.

Unknown Speaker  31:36  
no job,

Unknown Speaker  31:39  
no hope for a job. But I wasn't going to tolerate that behavior. And I wasn't going to be a part of it. Right. And when they weren't going to investigate it, and they weren't going to stop it. I said, That's it, I walked out. Yeah. And I thought for sure, that was the end of my un career. So I came back home. I was fortunate enough that the honorable and Taylor, who was in Franklin County, Ohio, and Columbus was done in need of a judicial Bailiff. And she hired me, notwithstanding that, I probably didn't fit the mold, and didn't necessarily have the right credentials to do what it was that she had in mind. But she gave me that opportunity. So I got home in December of 2012. And I started work January 5 of 2013. So I had a five day vacation before I started my new job. And while I was in my job working for judge Taylor, I got another call from the UN saying, what would it take for you to come back and I said, I'm not ever coming back to that tribunal. But this was a different tribunal with different leadership. And so I applied for a position there, and, and was hired as the chief court management for the special Tribunal for Lebanon. And I served in that role for three years until May of 2017 when I aged out of the United Nations system, because they have a mandatory age requirement for retirement.

Unknown Speaker  33:17  
And so in May of 2017, I came back home,

Unknown Speaker  33:20  
having done three years as the chief of court management at the special Tribunal for Lebanon. In that role, we were doing all the filings running the courtrooms in English, French and Arabic. Did that for three years. And when I came home, I accepted a position back in the US with LexisNexis, which is a legal research providers near my home. And I was doing basically training, continuing legal education, training and other training programs for people who use the computerized legal research systems provided by Lexus. I did that for about two years and then accepted a position the position I'm in now with Western Governors University where I get to work from home. Yay.

Unknown Speaker  34:08  
I don't know if that's good or not for you, though.

Unknown Speaker  34:12  
Yeah, well, I I work from

Unknown Speaker  34:14  
home and I do legal research for them and on a lot of unique and challenging areas. And it's the first time in my entire career that I my legal my entire legal career. So I became a licensed attorney in 1981. I'm licensed in nine different jurisdictions.

Unknown Speaker  34:33  
And it's the first time

Unknown Speaker  34:36  
since 1981. So you know, we're talking. So the first time in 29 years of practicing law that I'm ever doing compliance work I've never done compliance work before so it's it's its own adventure. If you understand I'm saying we're wary of law, try not to make mistakes and give them good advice. So

Unknown Speaker  34:57  
good anyway, like another foreign language.

Unknown Speaker  35:00  
I said this to you before, I don't know if you remember, but I'm like your you really do need to have a movie made about you. I always end with some personal questions. Just really quick, cute questions. I don't know if cutes the right word that I may have to edit that out, so I'm gonna shoot them at you. And the first one is, so what are your children doing now?

Unknown Speaker  35:21  
So proud of my kids. So my foster daughter is the first girl in her family to graduate from college and she has her master's degree in social work. And she is a lead Child Protective Service agent in San Diego County.

Unknown Speaker  35:39  
Nice.

Unknown Speaker  35:40  
My

Unknown Speaker  35:41  
oldest natural daughter, Christina has a bachelor's degree in English, a bachelor's degree in social work and a master's degree in social work. And she has chosen to use her skills as a teacher, including her social work skills as a teacher, and she has primarily taught in underserved population schools in Texas. And my youngest daughter, who was as you may recall, born with vision impairment, she's legally blind, okay. And was also had a hearing deficiency at birth, which has been was repaired when she was an infant. She has a Master's bachelor's degree in education, master's degree in education. And she teaches science and the middle grade schools in Louisiana.

Unknown Speaker  36:36  
Amazing, so she's down in Louisiana, at a standard public school teaching science and she is legally blind, visually legally blind. That's amazing. I need to talk to her too. She's amazing.

Unknown Speaker  36:50  
There, but they're all amazing. Every one

Unknown Speaker  36:52  
of them is amazing. Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker  36:56  
Next question. Have you in all your work in travels? Have you ever met anybody that you were just in awe of like in person where you just were like, I can't believe I get to meet this person.

Unknown Speaker  37:11  
So in June

Unknown Speaker  37:12  
of last year, I was invited to speak at the Pontifical Academy of the social sciences in the Vatican. Oh, and as a part of that, Pope Francis attended our meeting. And I met Pope Francis, personally. I mean, it wasn't like he met 20th. He, I got to meet Pope Francis personally. That was pretty awesome. But I have to tell you, and I should have bought the pictures over I also met some pretty amazing other people. I met Ruth Bader Ginsburg, personally.

Unknown Speaker  37:54  
I met who had a big impact on your career career.

Unknown Speaker  37:57  
Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  37:58  
before she even knew me. Right. I met Sandra Day O'Connor. And I met Sonia Sotomayor a couple of times.

Unknown Speaker  38:09  
They're pretty amazing. People.

Unknown Speaker  38:12  
Fantastic.

Unknown Speaker  38:13  
And so yeah, I've had the opportunity to meet them. But I do want to mention, I've also met some pretty amazing people whose names you will never hear. And that's one of my colleagues who's gentlemen from Ecuador. His name is Bruce horror with seasoned Ohio licensed attorney, who has been practicing law in Ecuador, for probably 20 plus 30 plus years. He does anti corruption, we're trying to help the people and in particular, the women of Ecuador, versus one of a very small network of heroes that I admire. another colleague is a guy that I work with also in the American Bar associations. name is Lawrence Wiener, he works in Argentina. They lead an effort that I participate in year and year in and year out to do outreach programming for individuals in different settings that I that we visit when we go to American Bar Association cities. And I can't tell you how, in all of each of them, I am, and there are others. I mean, but I think that's probably they, they all fit in the top 10. How about that? Right?

Unknown Speaker  39:28  
That's awesome, amazing.

Unknown Speaker  39:31  
And last question. So your sister, there's two things you said you're writing a book. And you also said your sister took a picture of you studying for law school while on the delivery table. Is that picture making it into the book? It'll be there. It has to be there. Yeah, well, I I need I need to see that.

Unknown Speaker  39:50  
Yeah, no, it'll be there. And I have to tell you, the other thing is when I was in Rwanda, one of the weekends that I was there, I had the opportunity to To go trekking with the gorillas in the mist, the Dian Fossey gorillas in the mist, and the ring, Gary national forests, now with five knee operations to get to 6000 feet above sea level, which is where the gorilla are, you have to climb for a long time. And it was not easy to do that it was almost not possible to do that. Sure. And I thought I was going to die going up to see the gorillas and when I came home from Rwanda, I told my husband, every person I know is now going to have to look at my gorilla pictures, because I almost died having these gorilla pictures made. Okay. And getting these pictures with me in the mountain gorillas. Okay, so what you will find in the book are lots of pictures of mountain gorillas

Unknown Speaker  40:50  
was it was it worth it

Unknown Speaker  40:51  
was worth every ounce of energy, it was absolutely worth it. But lots of gorilla pictures too.

Unknown Speaker  40:59  
Well, Linda, thank you so much for for taking the time to tell us your story and the absolutely amazing work you've done. I mean, thank you for your service to this country. Thank you for the service to the world, right. I mean, you have literally served people in some of the most people in the most in need of help all over the world. And you said earlier how you were, there was nothing special about you. You said that a couple times. I was gonna let your story do the speaking before I stepped in and argued with you. But there is everything especial about you. So thank you so so much for coming on. And speaking with me, I appreciate your time.

Unknown Speaker  41:38  
Well, and thank you so much for reaching out to

Unknown Speaker  41:40  
give me this opportunity. I

Unknown Speaker  41:42  
hope. What I hope

Unknown Speaker  41:45  
the folks who listen to your podcasts will take away from this is if I can do it, anybody can do it. Yeah, truly, believe in yourself. Never, never, never give up. Carry a sign around your neck visible or invisible. To do something to make the world a better place. Do something to make the world a better place, just as you're doing.

Unknown Speaker  42:11  
Thank you.

Unknown Speaker  42:14  
Again, subscribe to the show. And if you subscribe on Apple podcast, make sure to leave a review. I will be taking a little time off to celebrate my upcoming 50th birthday. And I'll be returning on October 18 with more fantastic guests. I'll see you then.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai