In this episode of Stanford’s Drop the MIC podcast, we hear from A&R professionals spanning over 20 years of music industry history. We have Daouda Leonard, a tried and true vet who was part of the generation that christened the internet age of brand building. Alongside him we have Bekah Flynn, an A&R rep at an indie record label who saw the rise of streaming platforms during her career and has learned when to leverage the numbers, and when to rely on her intuition. Finally, we speak to Sam Kolton, a millennial A&R rep who brings a fresh perspective to her rosters with her mastery of music data and analytics that she sees as the future of the industry. By putting these three perspectives in conversation, we view the artist development world from a vantage point that gives us all the insights into the lifespan and history of A&R.
In this episode of Stanford’s Drop the MIC podcast, we hear from A&R professionals spanning over 20 years of music industry history. We have Daouda Leonard, a tried and true vet who was part of the generation that christened the internet age of brand building. Alongside him we have Bekah Flynn, an A&R rep at an indie record label who saw the rise of streaming platforms during her career and has learned when to leverage the numbers, and when to rely on her intuition. Finally, we speak to Sam Kolton, a millennial A&R rep who brings a fresh perspective to her rosters with her mastery of music data and analytics that she sees as the future of the industry. By putting these three perspectives in conversation, we view the artist development world from a vantage point that gives us all the insights into the lifespan and history of A&R.
Welcome to the Drop the MIC podcast where we'll dive into conversations with some of the music industry's most established professionals. Like all of our episodes, what you will hear today has been created and curated by Stanford students who are breaking their way into the music scene. I'm Jay LeBouef and I lead Stanford University's music industry initiatives. Whether you're aspiring to launch your career in the music industry are already a music industry pro, or just curious to learn more. We've got you covered.
Keenan:Welcome to the A&R, artists and repertoire podcast. A&R is a division of a record label or music publishing company, and it is responsible for signing artists, and overseeing the artists, and their development. We'll be looking at the beginning of journeys in the music industry, the stories, working in the industry today, to the innovation that is taking place and changing the music industry forever. And by listening to this podcast, listeners will learn the skills that'll help them be successful in the changing space of A&R today.
Jaiden:So who do we have on today?
Tash:I can kick us off. So I interviewed my friend, Sam Kolton, who is a 31 year old in the music industry, who worked at red bull for many years, doing A&R. She started in music through more of a data center company, so she has this great data background that I think a lot of Stanford students will be able to relate to. But then she also has the creative side of things as well. So we definitely get that new age A&R perspective from Sam. Mike, do you want to tell us a little bit about your guest?
Mike:For sure. We are super lucky to have Bekah Zietz Flynn here with us today. Bekah is an experienced A&R Rep at Sub Pop Records and has worked with Sub Pop for more than 10 years. Sub Pop has a long history of signing groundbreaking artists, from Nirvana and Soundgarden in the 80s to Iron Wine and Beach House today. Bekah's career in the music industry began with college radio at the University of Vermont, a stint trying to make it in New York City and finally landing an internship with Sub Pop after moving to Seattle. Keenan. Can you tell us a little bit about our other guest, Daouda?
Keenan:Daouda Leonard is the founder and CEO of CREATESAFE, a music technology company working with Grimes, BloodPop, HANA, and other artists. He has worked as a manager, publisher, producer, A&R and creative director, and his creative work has led to over 15 billion global media impressions and sales for artists like Lady Gaga. Drake, Madonna, Kanye West, Ms. Lauryn Hill, The Weeknd, and Justin Bieber. He went to Northeastern University's School of Business and graduated with a degree in Management Information Systems, and worked on Wall Street as an Information Technology Analyst at Tudor Investment. He balanced full-time work with school while simultaneously being an innovator in the realms of music file sharing, and the Internet's transformation of the music industry that preceded the rise of music streaming. An individual helping empower artists and inspire the future of the music industry, please welcome Daouda Leonard.
Daejon:Let's get into it. Let's hear about how they got into the industry.
Keenan:I was wondering if you could talk about how you got into the music industry and music business in the first place.
Daouda:The quickest way to answer that is to say that I love music a lot, I loved having access to it, I think like that's what the internet provided me when I was in college. My freshman year, it was 1997. And, I tell this story sometimes, which is like, you know, I grew up in New York and right before I left to go to college, one of the stores that I would normally buy CDs from had this Busta Rhymes album, maybe two weeks before it was supposed to come out. So I bought it and I was able to go to school, with this CD, and it was sort of like my, it's like a way in which I like was able to connect with other people. It was like, Oh, I had this, I got this new music. You want to come listen to it in my dorm room. and like, you know, thinking back at that time, it wasn't because I wanted to be in the music business, like that's not what I was thinking. I wasn't even a music major, you know. I was a Physical Therapy major to begin with and then moved into Computer Science and Management Information Systems. At no point in time did I think I wanted to be in the music industry, but I was just really passionate about music. when I came back to school my sophomore year, I had a new computer. Northeastern had a T1 line, or at least I discovered what that was and now I had like high speed internet and a brand new computer. And I was like online and was getting access to all this like bootleg music essentially. because you know, Northeastern is where Napster was created and there were other things out there that, you know, more sophisticated than Napster where you could get access to music. And I just was like super passionate about that and being able to like, show people, my curatorial kind of like tastes and that led to, my other passions were in like building websites at the time, like in 99, that's when I started to become like a web developer. and I was like, well, I can merge my interest in music and development, and build artists' websites. And that was like the first thing and still at that time, it wasn't like particularly focused on Oh, I want to do this because I worked in the music industry was just like, I want to find people who need this type of skillset and apply it.
Mike:So Bekah, tell us how you got into A&R.
Bekah:For sure. So my journey, I guess, into the A&R world, I think kind of just ties back into my journey into music. I've always been a music fan, but for me, it wasn't until I got into college radio that really kind of navigated and shifted what I thought about in regards to a career in general, I kind of always knew that I wanted to enter the world of entertainment. I kinda thought I was going to go into the theater acting world, as opposed to the music world. And when I got into college that really shifted. I started becoming really involved in my college radio station, I quickly became the music director of that station, and through my relationships with different radio promoters that I talked to from my job at WRUV that really kind of made me realize Whoa, I could get paid to talk about music all day", which is something that I love.
Mike:Awesome. How did you get to know Sub Pop?
Bekah:I was always obsessed with Sub Pop. Obviously, Nirvana was a big band and musical influence for me. But more so even just like Mudhoney, and L7 those are just really important groups for me that I, that I really always respected. And, in the mid 2000's, around that time with the Postal Service, The Shins, Sub Pop was kind of getting a new, like. Sonic shift of artists and kind of blowing up on a different level. And so, you know, The Shins,(The) Postal Service, Iron Wine, Band of Horses, those artists were really becoming influences in bands that I listened to and wanted to support. And so I was like, all right, I'm going to go to Seattle and intern at Sub Pop. And so I was very grateful that I was able to get an internship there and that kind of shifted into my job, getting hired part-time in the radio department.
Tash:So I met Sam while I was interning under Amanda Schupf, who was a management consultant, creative consultant, and just all around great person to know in the industry. And she knows Sam from their days at Red Bull Songs together. Sam's love of music came from attending Bruce Springsteen concerts with her parents when she was a kid. However, it wasn't until she moved to Los Angeles from Chicago, that she was able to start to making a career out of it. Starting in Management Consulting, she began her music career at Creative Arts Agency, working closely with artists, agents, and industry executives to help artists understand and maximize their digital footprint in the marketplace. Following CAA, she joined Red Bull Songs, Red Bull's music publishing team, where she signed new talent and worked with the roster of artists, songwriters, and producers, providing creative services such as setting up co-writes and collaborations. And though Sam now works as a senior manager at SongTradr, she's here today to talk to us about her experience in the A&R world. What was your official title while you were at Red Bull?
Sam:So, it's funny because it was a working title, but I think you could just call me like Publishing Creative. Publishing Creative...essentially is like A&R, you know, we were responsible with scouting, signing talent, and then once they were on the roster, actually working with them in a creative capacity. So anything from pitching records, setting up co-writes. Oftentimes, you know, especially if an artist was independent and maybe didn't have a label to help with some of the label services we could help with, you know, feature ideas and really anything creatively to kind of benefit the final music product.
Tash:Okay, and could you, for the listeners, make that distinction of publisher versus label? What's that, what's the difference between those two?
Sam:Yeah. So, you know, when I think of a song, I think of it kind of as, you know, one whole entity, but then if you were to split it into, you have the master side and the copyright or the publishing. So the master side, which is connected with the label is really the, that sound recording. So anytime you hear a song on Spotify or on the radio, that kind of like physical, tangible recording is what, you know, we would call the master. And really, when I think about a label, not only are they responsible for creating that product, but once it is out in the commercial market, marketing it so that it can get in front of as many people as possible. And then publishing, you know, so we're really dealing primarily with songwriters, producers, some of which also have outward facing artist projects, but we're responsible for getting our client's music with either bigger label artists or getting it out in the commercial market.
Mike:So I'm curious, like in the traditional sense of A&R, you always think of the guy in the back of the club, just waiting for that next big hit, going to shows every night, scouring records, listening to mix tapes. So how does your profession nowadays hold up to that stereotype or that image of an A&R rep? How do you guys find artists? On top of that, how has COVID changed your experience finding artists?
Bekah:Yeah, I mean, I think pre-pandemic it was the same kind of thing that you were saying. It's like, I would listen to a band. The process is still the same, it just has just changed because obviously I'm not going to shows, no one is. But for me, you know, I look at Pitchfork and Stereogum and like, all of the music outlets every day. So I know the bands that are like the new artists that are kind of blowing up, right? That, that are getting the Stereogum like. New Artist feature or, you know, Pitchfork Rising and stuff like that. And those are, 99% of the time those bands are already on my radar. I already know who they are. I think that honestly, one of the biggest websites that have really kind of come in and dominated especially during the pandemic is Bandcamp. The way that they've navigated through editorial and combined it with retail is I think genius and I use their recaps all the time because I think that they're a little bit more obscure than like, just, you know--Pitchfork and Stereogum, love you guys, but like,-- I think that they really do really deep dives into punk and electronic and indie and different genres of music that I, 99% of the time, I'm like, I had never heard of this artist.
Mike:In talking to Bekah, I was surprised to hear how heavily she used online music, blogs, like Stereogum Pitchfork and, especially, the Indie distribution site BandCamp to find artists. When Keenan and I interviewed Daouda Leonard, we made sure to get his take on these sites, given his background in developing personal websites for artists like Clinton Sparks. Here he outlines how A&R happened in the hip hop world, as artists began promoting their music online in the late nineties and early two thousands.
Daouda:I think at the time, like websites were still like in a very, it was, it was sort of a very expensive kind of concept, and like the artists that did have them were like probably signed to a major record label. And, there was a lot of funding behind that. And I was attempting to do that for people who didn't even know that they needed a website at the time. And so for me, my journey into the music industry from that perspective started with like mixtapes, that's where I was really focused at. And I think that's where at least in hip hop, that's where a lot of A&R was focused on. Like that's how A&Rs would discover new music, you would hear about a new artist from a mixtape and that's probably like, that's more like, 2002, 2003 ish, maybe four, but then like right around'03,'04 is when, like the mixtape game went online. You know, Napster and all of that, or like, Oyster and Limewire still existed, and people would like rip the mixtapes and they would get on those services. But generally speaking, people were like, going to the mixtape websites, buying these mixtapes, you know, or getting sent the mix tapes and hearing about a different artist in the Bay Area or Atlanta or wherever. And then, you know, being able to go after signing that. So it was like DJs were definitely at the forefront of breaking new artists and breaking new music, which is how it got to the record labels to be signed in the first place like, that's just, that's my experience of it. I think DJ's, and slash producers have always been at the forefront of the A&R process, in either helping an artist to like, craft their sound or helping an artist to get their sound, their brand to a wider audience. Like traditionally, A&R within record labels is to connect what's happening in the streets to the actual record label, where they can go and expand that artist brand to a larger audience.
Tash:So Sam, I'm curious, how do you go from the maybe 10, 20, even 50 prospects that you find to the handful of artists, producers, songwriters that you actually end up signing.
Sam:So of course, for me, it's always about the music. If I, if someone has crazy numbers and crazy growth and I listened to a song and I'm like, I don't get it, this isn't something I feel I can work with, like that, you know, that's that for me, But if I have, you know, two artists I'm looking at, and both of them, I'm like super excited and inspired by the music, and then I go check out their data, I might see that artists A has been like growing crazy amounts on Instagram and has a very engaged audience and does some awesome content and really kind of has their brand more solidified, I might lean towards trying to be in business with that artist over someone who has zero social presence, doesn't do a ton of engaging with their audience only because I know how important putting a focus on kind of that brand, especially for like an, an artist is, and I think ultimately will help them be more successful.
Jaiden:It's interesting to see how different A&R reps in different parts of the industry find their artists.
Keenan:Yeah, it almost feels like Bekah using her website platform and Sam too. Going through blogs. They're working off the other platforms that Daouda and his generation spent a lot of time building.
Mike:Totally. Whether it's flipping through records or music blog articles, A&R reps get the job done. But what happens once the artist is signed? Me and Bekah talked a bit about the creative relationship between the A&R rep and the artist. There's that stereotypical idea that like, Oh, you get signed and all of a sudden you're like in this room with lava lamps and crazy mastering engineers and stuff.
Bekah:I mean, I've gone into the studio to hear sounds and stuff over the years with artists, but that's not, I don't go in and going, well, you know, like,"Oh, it feels like you need to like move this level up or down. Or,"What if you try to do this, this and this?" I mean, and also I have been like, you know, I think that the closest I get to maybe a traditional A&R thing is like, if someone turns in and asks me to listen to the sequencing, there've been times where I'm like, yeah, dude, like, maybe don't start this with like, a 10 minute instrumental, like don't record a 10 minute instrumental.
Mike:Yeah.
Sam:I think it's like super important to also remember how subjective music is. So I personally, whenever I'm giving feedback or any type of like subjective opinions, I always make sure to preface, like, this is my opinion. I have my listening tastes. I think there are things to look out for that are more objective. You know, if someone writes a song and it's a concept about falling in love on the dance floor, you know. It's not the most, not that a song like with that idea, can't come and be a huge record, but typically if something has been done or there's a ton of other music talking about the same thing, like that's a piece of feedback I could give. Or if I love a song, but I'm like, the chorus is a little wordy. A lot of what I do is kind of about like establishing relationships, and a good rapport. So if I have worked with a writer for years, maybe we've kind of already had a conversation about how they want feedback and news. And if I know, you know, sometimes someone's writing about something that's super personal and cathartic for them. And maybe the goal was not to make a record that's going to go and become like a number one dance record, but it's actually something that has a different type of like, meaning for them. I like to be cautious of all of those different scenarios.
Mike:Daouda gave some great thoughts on how A&Rs can make themselves useful to artists during the creative process as well. Do you feel pretty involved in the artistic and aesthetic development process that an artist goes through?
Daouda:That's how I've always been able to create value for the people that I've worked with, which is like having an opinion and cultivating that opinion so much so that it's like a part of my, I guess, like talent or skillset. Being able to cultivate relationships with other people so that you can bring opportunities to your client. Being able to have a informed opinion about the music so that your artists can like take that into consideration, and make their decisions based on like the advice that's being given. And also being able to provide, critical feedback around the actual, process of creation. So, knowing what sounds good in a sense like, you know, which is subjective, but like being able to be like, okay, I have an understanding, like: that could hit harder, the vocal could be clearer. So being able to speak confidently about the actual idea that's being created.
Tash:I mean, I think this segment was super interesting. I think it's really interesting to see how unique each A&R experience is in terms of like how involved they are in the creative process.
Jaiden:And also how, individual it is, the relationship with the client.
Keenan:Exactly. It felt like Daouda really prided himself in his ability to have a creative eye.
Tash:Yeah, I think that makes sense, like, given his focus on really creative and unique artists like Grimes that he would want to have a kind of a creative input on, on his artists and in terms of his A&R process.
Keenan:Yeah. Whereas Bekah was more hands off in that sense, and maybe more focused on the marketing.
Jaiden:I think in that regard, the other big component of A&R, besides the creative feedback, is building a brand and taking advantage of platforms to get your artists, music, face, name out there. Nowadays, that means social media.
Mike:I'm curious how all of this has changed due to the rise of streaming and social media. How was your job 10 years ago versus now? What was, like, a day in the life 10 years ago versus now?
Bekah:Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, honestly, it's hard because I think that in some ways it's hard to isolate the A&R process and separate it from necessarily the marketing component. The reality is, for me, I don't look at social numbers or how many streams they have on Bay. Like, I mean, I should say this. I do look at that stuff, right, like, I'm like, if there's a newer artist and no one has ever heard of that, I'm like, man, this record is insane. You know, I look at that stuff to go, whoa, this is cool that they're already up on Spotify or, have some following. But I don't think to us, we're not necessarily signing up artists because they have 75,000 Instagram followers or something. The co president of Sub Pop, Tony, just signed this artist named Hannah Jadagu and I think she's a really perfect example of like, she has not very much streaming like on Spotify. She has maybe I think now we announced a new track and I think she maybe has a thousand or so Instagram followers. I think that we're really helping build her identity as an artist from the kind of the ground up. And, obviously the social numbers and Spotify, those are extremely important to our marketing of artists. But, on the a and A&R front, I don't necessarily look at that when I'm trying to sign a band.
Mike:Much of Daouda's work early on building websites for artists seem to preempt a lot of the social media use that we see with artists these days. So we had to ask him how he felt about social media.
Daouda:Yeah. I mean, I'm one of those people that had to succumb to the idea that not everybody wanted their own website. Like I was actually, like, um not a fan of MySpace. Like I understood it, but I was just like, it doesn't make sense to give your brand to their real estate, when you can build your own real estate. And then Myspace became so popular and I had to be like, damn, like no one cares about going to these artists' websites. So I got to like, maybe like at least get with the program and begin using Myspace and pushing artists to use Myspace. When Twitter first started, I was like, onboarding people to Twitter. When Instagram first started, I was onboarding people to Instagram. Spotify I had like early codes to get people on Spotify before they launched in the U S. So yeah, like I went from being like, no, you gotta do everything and you have to build your presence yourself to recognize like they, with these platforms that we're giving people an opportunity to create a wider audience.
Mike:Daouda admits that artists have to use social media to their advantage, but he takes it one step further to talk about the future of social media.
Daouda:But what I still recognize today and, you know, it's like, Instagram is dying lowkey What happens as it dies, because Facebook is definitely in my opinion, dead. And so now you've built up all this real estate, and you're literally just leaving it. It's like an abandoned property.
Keenan:So before we get into our last segment, the future of A&R just a fair warning. In our interview of Daouda, he gets pretty technical about his divisions on the life cycle of new music media. And especially he brings up this point on non fungible tokens.
Mike:So NFTs or a non fungible tokens are a special kind of crypto graphic token, which represents something unique. And thus is not mutually interchangeable with other tokens. whereas with like Bitcoin, or other cryptocurrencies, you can exchange them value for value non fungible tokens are not exchangeable with each other. So artists can sell their work attached to a non fungible token, and ensure that whoever receives that gets the authentic thing. And, only they received that profit.
Tash:Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, that's definitely more technical than Sam and I went in our interview but I do think she also has some really interesting insights on the future of the industry, that I think will pair really nicely with what Daouda has to say.
Keenan:In the future with social media, because you've seen so many different platforms and like, and worked with their different platforms, in regards to the music industry, over time. And it seems to be that there's ebbs and flows and certain ones die off and certain ones tend to last a little bit longer. Do you have any thoughts on what's happening next?
Daouda:Well, I think that there's two things. One is this is sort of what I will say is no surprise to a lot of people is like you are seeing a trend towards niche, community building. Discord being a good example of that. And so I think that that trend is gonna continue to grow where people are being like, I'm going to just build for my audience, and I'm going to build a community that I also can sort of own. More than I own them when it was on my Facebook page, you know cause you could do more on Facebook actually, then you can do with Instagram. So I think that we're trending towards that where people are like recognizing that they need to do that. Like that's what Twitch also provides. That's what, things like Patreon provide. So they're like closed social media in a lot of sense, but then I think that what's always been there will continue to be there it's just, you got to tap into it, is like actually having a direct relationship with those customers. Which is either through email or text message. There's obviously actually knowing someone and talking to them, but email and text message, like people built being able to build around that and like have that information and develop a real relationship. And that's what a fan club really, you know, people don't talk about that anymore. Like that terminology isn't really used like that anymore. Like having a fan club, and building a fan club, and so maybe we're seeing the resurgence of that in a new way. It's possible. I think for people to innovate in that space, in the fan club development space, which is like a one-to-one, or one to maybe not millions but thousands.
Tash:So in the six years you've been in this industry, what do you think? Or what do you imagine the future of A&R to look like?
Sam:I mean, I think that, and it's already happening, but I think that, you know, very like data-centric decision-making. There are so many tools out there now that either can help you see like very easily who's bubbling under. You know, there's a tool that I use called Chartmetric that even just from like, you know, I take maybe 30 minutes every morning and I just look at some of the big playlists and some of the charts. And they have their own kind of calculations in there to say like, here's the 15 people that have gone from a hundred thousand monthly listeners, to like 5 million. And growth and trajectory for me is super important in how I look at things, because you can have Artist A that has a million monthly listeners. You could have Artist B that has 5 million. If Artist B has had 5 million monthly listeners for like five years and hasn't grown, that's one thing. If Artist A has gone from 0 to 100,000 to 500,000 to a million in a month, that's super interesting to me. And I think being able to get in that level, and then using the resources of a major label or publisher to actually like pour some gasoline really help ride that momentum is a scenario that I've seen play out well in terms of like signing things early and then ultimately having them be successful.
Mike:Well, it's been so great to get to hear from all these amazing industry folks.
Jaiden:Yeah. It's been so much fun.
Tash:I think, um, in particular I loved putting the different eras of A&R into conversation. So seeing the differences and similarities between Daouda's experience compared to say Sam.
Keenan:Yeah. Seeing where they agreed and disagreed was very interesting.
Jaiden:So before we go, I thought it would be nice to leave our audience members with some advice from our guests.
Bekah:I mean, I think the only thing I will say is that people just, you know, if any musicians end up listening to this, I think it's just like, just stay true to yourself. And I mean, in all facets of the world, I think people should just always stay true to themselves and their art. And don't try to cater to what people think that they should sound like. I think you just need to be authentic and that will hopefully resonate I know that that is what I look for when I'm signing a band and I think that, I would hope that that's what other people do too.
Daouda:It's just like, yo really, really focused on developing your talents and skills if you're not the actual artist.
Keenan:For sure.
Daouda:Figure out what your strengths are and put in a lot of time enhancing them. Figure out what your weaknesses are and figure out how to build strengths around those weaknesses.
Sam:You know, I don't think there's really like a cheat code. I think it's even if you start from the ground, I think it's constant momentum and moving forward. So if you're like an artist and you're putting out your first song and you have no, you know, presence on Spotify or social media. It's not saying like, how can I go from 0 to a million it's how can I go from 0 to 50? And it's really working that growth slowly. And maybe you start by doing a live stream, and you only have 25 people in it, and then someone shares it and you get 25 of their fans. I think that the A&Rs and the people doing the research will come because we're paying attention to the music that's being put out and we're paying attention to what the audience and fans are reacting to. There's so many tools out there in terms of like, you know, being able to be knowledgeable on your analytics and where your fans are, and how they're listening. And I would recommend anyone to use that data and make informed decisions. And again, it's hard now, but I think if you're a artist that wants to do live shows, you know, get yourself into, even if it's just like a 15 person club or there's an industry night cause you never know who's going to be in the audience. Collaborating is a huge way of expanding your network, especially as like an artist. And you can go onto like Instagram or YouTube or Spotify and find producers in New York, or Alabama, or wherever, and reach out to them and try to put a session together. We all see those people on Instagram who are spamming A&R's and saying like, please listen to my music
Tash:(chuckles)
Sam:and DM-ing them. I don't necessarily think that's the way to do it, but I think we've all, even on my side things, I've called, emailed, and reached out to people all the time. So I think don't be afraid to like hustle and put your stuff out there, but do it in a way, you know, with a little bit of grace. Absolutely. I think that's great advice. Data-driven music, honest music and respect the hustle. Put yourself out there. Exactly.
Tash:This has been the A&R episode of Drop the Mic(Season Two) with music by Mike Mulshine. Thank you so much for listening!