An Artist's Arsenal

In addition to the obvious necessity of a repertoire of musical talents and skills, an artist will benefit from an arsenal of professionals. Through our conversations with Doug Mark, an entertainment attorney, Liv Seltzer, an artists and repertoire consultant, Miranda Martell, Chief Growth Officer at Quadio Records, and Abir Hossain, VP of Quadio Records we will reveal how these professionals support an artist. 

Transcript

Jay: 0:06

Welcome to the Drop the MIC podcast where we'll dive into conversations with some of the music industry's most established professionals. Like all of our episodes, what you will hear today has been created and curated by Stanford students who are breaking their way into the music scene. I'm Jay LeBouef and I lead Stanford University's music industry initiatives. Whether you're aspiring to launch your career in the music industry are already a music industry pro, or just curious to learn more. We've got you covered.

Keao: 0:32

Hey, welcome to the podcast. My name is Keao.

Annella: 0:35

My name is Annella.

Sean: 0:36

My name is sean

Kiara: 0:37

And I'm Kiara

Annella: 0:38

So for this podcast, we're going to be talking about the management of a musical artists brand. And we talked to a bunch of people to bring this podcast together.

Keao: 0:45

In addition to the obvious necessity of a repetoire of musical talents and skills an artists will benefit from an arsenal of professionals. Through our conversations with Doug Mark an entertainment attorney Liv Seltzer an artists repertoire consultant and Miranda Martel, chief growth officer, and Abir Hussain VP of Quadio records. We will reveal how these professionals support an artist.

Annella: 1:06

The arsenal professionals around an artist can help or seriously hinder an artist's ability to focus on the creative process and develop their brand. Our interviewees share their personal stories and experiences at varying levels within the music industry, bringing different perspectives on topics, such as the love for music,

Sean: 1:24

Firstly, we would like to introduce Doug Mark. Who's a music attorney. His professional career found its roots from a childhood surrounded by constant flow of great music in the city coined as the entertainment capital of the world. Los Angeles.

Doug: 1:37

I was a kid from Los Angeles and therefore Oh, who also happened to love, like every song on the radio, I would sing knew I didn't, I wasn't a musician myself. I would sing in bands sometimes for like high school graduations, because I was the guy who knew all the words. So the real musicians would ask me to sing and I love the movies. And then as I bounced around through my undergrad, my law school career in different towns and the traveling the world, I was cut out to be a lawyer. My skill set was that of a lawyer. I could speak it was either journalism or law or politics. And so when in doubt, go to law school in those days. And then I figured I bounced back to my home town, which is like a company town to a great extent, the motion picture and music, industries, and television. So I knocked on doors till I found somebody because what you do as a, as an entertainment lawyers, you negotiate contracts rather than final lawsuits. It seemed like a funner way to ex law though, negotiating contracts than on the court. So I knocked on doors and the guy who happened who was willing to take a shot with me, it was a musical air. We just left a big firm and had his own practice. So he mentored me and through, I learned my skills suit him, and I was able to pick up clients in different ways.

Kiara: 3:08

What exactly does your job entail? Because I know we're doing like artists, branding and management. How does that correlate to being a music attorney?

Doug: 3:18

Okay. So artists' branding is okay. Let me start. Beginnings music. Lawyer is the person who is there. Artists is doing their thing. Maybe they're on the streaming services themselves, or working with producers and somebody comes into their lives that they either need to help their career to negotiate their agreements. So you never know what it's going to be in a manager first or a lawyer first, or that depends on how much they have their own. Hustle going,

Annella: 3:55

And what's the role of a manager in all of this.

Doug: 3:58

what a manager does is really everything. They have to be like a shadow record, record company. They have to be making sure the lawyers getting the deals done, making sure the finances are getting done by the accountant, all the business manager. So the manager is really like the, almost like the president of the company. And the artist is like the CEO,

Annella: 4:20

then what is the lawyer like?

Doug: 4:22

the lawyer is like the head of business affairs of the company. No artist has gotten anywhere without managers, really running interference for them in a million different ways and creating. And the manager is is different from a lawyer, because the managers on the ground with the artist 24 hours a day, lawyers just doing the contracts, maybe giving some advice about how to do the branding contract. Now maybe the manager brought it in the lawyer, negotiates the agreement, more boring.

Kiara: 4:55

But I guess you have more of a connection with managers than the artists themselves?

Doug: 5:02

Yeah. That's a very good question. And typically, yes, I would say my career, I spend more time talking to the manager for my client than my client themselves because the manager acts as a filter or everybody to the artist So in, in overseeing all the business deals, if the artists frequently doesn't want to get into them, my new shop, the manager does and then translates the artists and that some artists that I'm on with simultaneously or separately asking me all the questions and more often than not a talking to the manager of the contracts.

Sean: 5:40

So once an artist has a lawyer and a manager when does branding come in?

Doug: 5:45

the branding comes from two ways. One is an artist who has a good, strong sense of their own image and works social media so that you know what they stand for. Maybe they've created a little logo. Maybe their vibe is unique. The image of a guy like Snoop dog, nobody could be stronger because of the way his words and his voice flow from day one. You heard that and you're like, that's a brand right there because nobody ever did that like that before. And so that has nothing to do with a lawyer, that's an artist creating an image, maybe creating a logo, it's bringing it to the public oftentimes of the manager's help. But I don't think in Snoop's case, for example, The other form of the term branding is identifying them with brands. You represent Billie Eilish. So brands are dying to be associated with Billie Eilish. It doesn't matter if they're energy, drinks or Gucci they all want to do, they all want to be yeah. Identified with an artist that represents a certain type of Demographic. And so that's a Durham form of branding. That's where you have create your own Cola drink or Billy's creating her own perfume. Famously JLL and Brittany spirits, these fragrances, they pick some cute name, but you immediately or puffy in Ciroc vodka, an artist that identifies with a brand, maybe it's a pre-existing brand. Maybe the artist created the brand. And that's branding of a product which helps make money and sell something. That's not music. So it's two different things that represent the term branding that artists benefit from doing both. They can do their own branding and they have to it's really like their image. That's going to make them popular. And then at some point after they're popular, they merge with other things and create new either enhanced brands. Like Coca-Cola. Or create their own brands. Like so many people do.

Sean: 7:50

So Doug Mark has given us great insight into the working relationship between a music attorney that has decades of experience in the industry, working with artists, such as Billy Eilish that have a more established following. Furthermore, being an attorney, Doug is slightly detached from working directly with the artists and being college students. We're curious what the process of uplifting artists at earlier stages of their careers look like.

Keao: 8:17

In addition to that, being a college student and having friends that have made music in high school, who never really made it to any kind of fame and having friends in college that are still trying to go their listeners on Spotify We don't get to see how they interact with independent labels, that we don't get to see how they manage their brands outside of their small support groups.

Annella: 8:34

So now that we have the perspective of a lawyer, we turned to the label's responsible for pushing an artist's brand to the next level. Claudio records is an independent label geared towards representing the next generation of artists.

Miranda: 8:46

Quadio is really the Genesis of the brand. And Quadio is a couple of years old and was founded by Marcus and Joe Welch, who our step cousins and Joe had just graduated from Williams college. He was an econ major and a hockey player, But he also made beats in his dorm room and couldn't really get anybody to listen to them. And the second semester of his senior year, He took a, like a non-major songwriting course. And he realized that there were a bunch of people in there that he had already known, but none of them knew the other was making music. And so they started collabing and just had some sort of like virality on campus. Like their songs were played at the warmups and at graduation. And they all just really felt like it would have been. It's such a game changer. If there was a way for them to have known earlier in like freshman year that they were making music and they could have had all this time together to collaborate. So Joe sat off to build a platform that would do that for college musicians and thus Quadio was born.

Sean: 9:53

So Quadio focuses on the music and the journey of the artists. They focus on developing each of their uniquely individual artists, pushing their talent. The music industry too often, do we see labels, prioritizing analytics instead of seeing the artists as individuals? This displays a commitment further displaying, real love for music instead of the constant focus on just the financial aspect of the industry. Here's a beer and Miranda to speak more on what their mission. Is as an independent record label

Abir: 10:22

There's a lot of focus on trusting your gut. It just depends on where you are in the spectrum of labels. And I think for me, Quadio offered us a clear picture of we're looking for the best college talent. And that was like this thing that wasn't really mine. And that sense of yeah, there, like there can be analytics to support our investment. There can be like the gut feeling to support them. But the overall goal is how do we like continue to push emerging talent in college? Because they're a unique thing because students are people who are. Obviously very invested in their education while also pursuing art. And they take both things very seriously. And I think sometimes they're there's parts of them that feel like they might be missing out on opportunities and by being a student or vice versa. And I feel like I didn't want that to be a detriment to why. And artists gets an opportunity and there's just so many, so much amazing talent, like in the college, like round that it was exciting for me to get here and mine it with everyone. And every now and body had already had their yours to the streets of what was working at different campuses. And yeah, it was just a really exciting moment to help amplify what these kids were doing

Miranda: 11:27

and just. To finish answering your question. As far as the future, I think what's really organically happened amongst our community is that it has started to expand beyond just the musician and really like organically we've had designers and videographers and photographers and. Managers and like all of the kind of people that support informed this team and like crew around that artist's career and success. And I think college is such a special and important place to do that. And I feel like we're really seeing this moment in time where the artists that are all breaking have that. Team around them like that they've come up with. And I think that there's a really cool opportunity with Barrio to help people form that.

Kiara: 12:15

We come to Liv from Brooklyn, who is a manager for producers and artists while Quadio record represents the next generation Liv is the next generation.

Liv: 12:24

My name is Liv. I'm in Brooklyn. I work in the music industry. I'm 24. Yeah. I started out doing management for an artist friend of mine, my last year in college. And I was brought into the, I was I was sorta like born into the music industry cause my family is really deep in it. But I started managing this artist, my senior year of college and we actually saw some success which was awesome. And yeah, that's, it brought me into the whole world of it.

Annella: 13:02

So aside from your family, how did you get your break in the music industry?

Liv: 13:06

I had done this internship at this management company in For like my sophomore and junior year of college. And it was just this really big like management company. And I was like an assistant and. Just like seeing how things work there. And I was like, okay I think I could like, do this on my own and it could be fun. And so I was just like looking for, project and I ended up linking up with this artist who hadn't even been making music at the time. And she had just been like posting on Instagram and I was just like, you are like hilarious. And I think if you don't make music, maybe you should try. And she was like, turns out I actually have an album done. And so like we linked up and yeah, and just took off from there, but just building like organic relationships with people and like supporting different, artists that you really have a good connection with the music.

Kiara: 14:05

So, what is it like being a young person and being transgender in the music industry? What were some of the struggles you have faced?

Liv: 14:14

Younger person. It's an interesting industry because a lot of pressure is actually put on young people to like, or at least like in an ANR sense to like, know what's up. And so it's once you reach 30, you're just Oh I don't I'm not supposed to keep up with this young kid stuff. Isn't that your job? You're supposed to be on Tik TOK. You're supposed to be knowing what, what the kids I'm not a kid. So it's it's it puts an extra dimension onto it because like maybe in a different industry, you'd be like, Oh, you're just a kid. You don't really know what you're talking about. In this one, it's the kids, are the ones that are dictating, what's making like billions of dollars. So you're the kid in the room you tell us. So it's fun in that way that you can hold some more. If you choose to wield it, you can hold some more power as, putting yourself forward as like a tastemaker. I'm also transgender. So it, that is like a big part of blazing my own like path forward in the industry also because there's nobody that I can no real trans people that I can really look up to in the industry or Mentor me in that sort of way. And so just like by nature of being trans often it's sorta be confident or die pretty much just sorta, just if you're not confident, like how the hell are you going to get other people to believe you? If you want them to call you a certain thing, it's if you can't. Walk into a room and own it. Like how are you gonna expect other people to, do the same? And it's that's like a harsh way to put it. That's like a harsh reality and not all industries are like that at all. But the music industry definitely still is. And it it's fun, but it requires like it requires the thick skin.

Annella: 16:01

So what's managing an artist like.

Liv: 16:03

It's a 24 seven job when you're managing an artist. And that just means like doing it. It means like the really fun and amazing times when you're like, In the audience of a room that's like totally packed for someone that like, for someone that you're managing, like you like made all this shit happen and people are going crazy for it. And that's a really awesome feeling. Whereas like I thought they would go crazy for this. And like I did, would it take to, actually have that happen, to see it, but it also means if you're. Artists has food poisoning. You're the one cleaning up after them. It's you're the one on 3:00 AM on the phone because like they're crying for whatever reason, and every reason is valid. It's just it's a really intense job. And that suits some people really well. I have a good friend who is just like an incredible manager and he manages this artist who I signed recently. And he gets frustrated sometimes too, but it's also like a, it's a very close relationship that you have with an artist where they basically become like family to you. And everything then becomes personal because of that. So it's not only just business anymore, just because you care, you end up caring a lot about this person and they're, in their future.

Kiara: 17:36

Just like Miranda and Abir fromQuadio Liv touches briefly on some of the behind the scenes efforts in creating an artist brand in rise to fame. Essentially breakthroughs are hard. That's why it's crucial to establish a fan base and identity.

Liv: 17:52

Oh authenticity is usually number one. Yeah, these days a loyal fan base because nobody really just goes viral out of nowhere. It's a lot of building behind the scenes of, like Billie Eilish. Didn't just drop a song one day and then just Ended up on the charts. Like she was building like a really loyal fan base for like ages and on maybe on the surface, it looked like she just popped out of nowhere, but these people have been like really, pushing her through the full way. And that's what makes her, like a long-term success as opposed to someone like. No shade for Lil NAS X, but like he blew up and didn't have that loyal fan base and now is trying to grow it. And that sort of just the song sort of gets ahead of him in that way rather than the other way around.

Keao: 18:55

So after we hear from Liv we come back to Quadio where they talk about the fluidity of an artist brand and the importance of staying true and genuine, but also not being afraid to challenge the fan base consistency of brand can take on many different forms. Here's Quadio

Abir: 19:11

for me, it's basically, I always loved artists that from album to album changed what they were doing. Like David Bowie and Prince are two of my favorite artists. And David Bowie literally becomes a different person from the album, and it works. So I think it goes back to for me, it's if you're writing great songs and there's a reason why you're transitioning to this other point, people are going to follow along with that. I remember I was reading an article about Kenneth Lamar. And he, when he wrote to pimp a butterfly, they played it for Jay Z and they were nervous because they were like, this is very different, like from good kid and all this stuff. And Jay Z, he was like, if you don't drop this, now you'll never be able to do it. Cause you have to show your fan base early on that you're willing to challenge them. And I've always held that on. And that's like something that everybody will have started at. And I've always made it a point to bring that story to all the artists that I work with to let them know that That's like where I hold the vision is it's okay to challenge your fan base. As long as you're making art, that's really true to yourself. People it's going to cut through. I think a lot of times, like we, we try to like all these moments they're made from an artist being genuine and everyone amplifying that, that piece of themselves. So it doesn't really work when it's not real.

Sean: 20:20

And evolving image comes in many shapes and forms for different artists, Abir and Miranda elaborate on developing uniqueness in terms of an artist's brand, while also staying true to who they are.

Abir: 20:33

Yeah, I think that, I think number one, the one that goes from the onset, right? If you're an artist who's constantly challenging your fan base. I think that they'd be ready for it. I think that I know Lil Uzi Vert, Burt's a little weird this week because he put a pink diamond in his forehead, but Other than that he from the onset, he was always challenging his fan base with what his influences were and who he really wanted to be and all that stuff. And he lived in these different worlds of, I listened to rock music and that's very common now in hip hop, when he first came out, it was like, he was this Katy like anime and but he had all these like different types of interests that weren't so normal. And I think if you start off like that, no one questions when you're. Going a little off the deep end in terms of your art or how you present yourself. Because I think that, they are ready for you to be ecentric I guess is the word, but it all, that also both boils down to how good the art is. So being weird for weird sake doesn't work, and then I think that people also sometimes they're like Like you can be weird and be vague. And it's yeah, you have to be really good and different. And for a reason, you can't just be different to be different, but York works because it's truly compelling music that people are just obsessed with. It. It's just that good. And I think that it there's so many artists now that are doing this well, and I think we're living in a really great place right now where. Like people have all these interesting like hobbies and interests and they're not afraid to put it out there on the internet. It's like a much, all the things I grew up with that were basically like considered like nerdy or counterculture are very normal right now. And I'm like, gosh, I'm like so normy right now. But that, that really is like the thing. And it's a beautiful thing to see, because, and I think that just goes hand in hand with just continuing to challenge yourself and learn more about different art forms and. And finding different things that inspire you and trying to combine that. I think one of the things that we do at Quadio now is obviously we're trying to be a home for all college creatives of all types of art forms. And I think that one of the things that you'll see in great artists is they're inspired by all sorts of different types of art. Not just music, not just like someone's production, not someone's musicianship, but like the stuff that they see at the MoMA, or this or that. And it's a culture as a whole. And that's what what are like great artists really are. And I think that's just, yeah, it's important to bring all those things together to make something truly unique.

Sean: 22:49

to my understanding, consistency is one of the key things when developing a brand. How do you walk that fine line between staying true to your brand and taking on something new and challenging your fan base?

Miranda: 23:00

Sean, about brand building. I think that like consistency can take a lot of forms and there are things you can like always remain consistent with while leaving flexibility to let that brand take shape. And so for me, it's what's that brand essence or what's the vision, or what's like the umbrella message that is always true. And then what are all of the different ways that you can ladder back up to that truth? And I think that there are a lot of ways and with certain artists, those parameters are tighter than others, but I think that Especially now with brand building, like there's a lot of room for flexibility because there are so many different touch points where you can communicate that brand message. And I think it's just really identifying what is that truth? That is, is like always true. And then what are the different ways that you can like manifest the brand around that?

Keao: 23:49

As the podcast comes to an end, we think it's useful to look at Doug Mark and his experience in the management of artists. And we think it's, you sort of see how they operate in these new and challenging times. We turn back to Doug

Doug: 24:04

Maybe the, the most maybe unique contract I ever created is already been torn up which was almost by design. This gets a little bit eclectic, but it'll be easy to understand. I think ans route bands have trademarks. Trademark is the name of the band and no matter, and people leave bands and people pass away and the bands go on new members all the time. No, the temptations are all new. There may be one original temptation now, so they all move on and spikes over trademarks and who gets to keep it. And then they all say there infrequently and say, this is our final tour and it isn't their final tour. Maybe one member doesn't go out and the next member does. And so I represented a client called Motley crew. I still do represent them. They're a rock band from the eighties and very big and it stayed. I had a lot of longevity several years ago, they had told the public, this is going to be our final tool. So the tickets were at a premium and they are really expensive. And Amazon arenas all over the country and all the press said something. where everybody says that it's not true and you're ripping off the consumer, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, was that no proving. We put together, I put together a contract. It said anybody can use the trademark, but it's not being used the majority analyses. And I said, call the contract. The cessation of touring agreement said nobody's ever touring again with the name Motley crew and none of none of the four of us, because the way trademark works and partnerships work is like I said, the majority could go off and do it and make a lot of money. These four guys, all agreed. Nobody could use the name, of course. And so we showed it to the press. Nobody can use the name. This is the final tool. Those people, it got a lot of press in the wall street journal and New York times. And I was on CBS Sunday morning and you could look it up, but those journalists who want her to really Bri said Can't before them all agree to tear up the contract together because there's nobody to enforce it, which is exactly what happened. It was four or five years later. They did agree to tear up the contract, but it was still a unique freeze. The trademarks of it had to be unanimous. We used, I don't think any bands. And so that's one of the more unique contracts I've been involved with. You had a sort of a part two to that question about.

Annella: 26:43

Yes, curious about how you're navigating the pandemic

Doug: 26:47

Because of zoom and everybody's bored. I'd found a guitar teacher and taken guitar lessons. But I assume much like the live streaming of concerts that this concept of video telephone calls, which are just as easy as making audio telephone calls. Will catch on in the future. It's like halfway between a phone call and a meeting rather people would rather see people having meeting without having a trout. I don't know.

Kiara: 27:21

very interesting to see based off of this pandemic, most of the meetings and conversations we have can be through texts or email and don't need to have some things don't even need to be face to face communicated.

Annella: 27:31

It seems like the pandemic has affected more than communications within the industry. It's affected how. Companies like Quadio records interacts with their audiences. Here's Abir with more insight.

Abir: 27:44

So one of the things that we did and the reasons why we focus so much on the label was we realized that recorded music is more important than ever, just because right now people are home. For the most part, they're listening to music at home, they're streaming music. they're watching videos on YouTube so we made a really big concerted effort to make sure the artists that we work with. They were ready to constantly release the music. Like for bands generally they'll release an album and they'll tour on a cycle for about 12 months and then take off for two months, work on it, a record, put that out, continue like that process basically. But instead, what we're trying to do is model it off, like the hip hop model of you want to put singles out all the time. Like you, you want to keep constantly creating and like collaborating with different people and really trying to push our artists to constantly write constantly do stuff because they can't bring, they can't make a record now and just bring it to different people in different markets. As a show like that's been taken from us by this pandemic. So what we can do is constantly give them a barrage of great art that they have nothing, but. A choice to buy into this artist. And by the time, hopefully the world changes and it's safer. And all of that, that these artists will have fan bases that have really bought into the story that they've created musically. And they're ready to buy tickets and see them and experience this in person whenever it's safe to do so.

Annella: 29:04

Through our interviews with Doug. The Quadio crew and Liv, we exposed the array of professionals in an artist corner. We got to pop the hood and take a look at all the working pieces that aid in an artist development.

Keao: 29:16

we really valued getting to see all these different perspectives.

Annella: 29:19

from Doug Mark, we uncovered how a legal team protects artist interests In order to protect the artist brand.

Keao: 29:26

And then from Liv, we got to learn a little bit about, what he does as a young up-and-comer and kind of a manager to all these different artists

Sean: 29:35

Yeah. And from Quadio, we learned that, each artist is unique, and in their uniqueness, an artist has to stay true to themselves and really challenged their fan base sometimes. But the key thing is to stay genuine so that they can convey their brand, to their fan base.

Annella: 29:53

It became very apparent to that an artist, I mean, while they can and do do it alone, it's very difficult.

Keao: 30:02

I think it really opened our eyes to, as to like how many people will go into making someone successful from the ground or from already having a following, the amount of people

Annella: 30:11

So many people. There's so many working pieces going on behind the scenes of some of our favorite artists. It really takes a village.

Keao: 30:19

it really does.

Kiara: 30:21

Not only on top of that, you have to make sure you have an identity. You know exactly what you want coming in, to this music industry and you can't let anybody change you. And that's why you probably need a legal team to protect you, a record deal that won't shift you and Liv showed that if that's the case, you make your own path and make sure you, you still identify who you are.

Keao: 30:42

If anything, it's almost terrifying if we ever wanted to write music or make music the process of going up and being someone Billy Eilish or Motley crew, like what, what Doug talked about. It's. Insane to see how much work there needs to be done to make everything go well to make the car run, you know, hoods. And I think lastly, we all want to stay thank you to our listeners. And most importantly to our interviewees we want to think Doug, we want to thank Liv and want to thank Abir and Miranda who, really helped open our eyes to what it's like to manage somebody's brand.