SPEAKER_02: It's time for another bicexual brunch, this time with Lewis Oakley, Ashley Byrne, and Laura Clark.
SPEAKER_00: If nobody was told what you were meant to do, if there weren't any rules, then we'll be living in a totally different format.
SPEAKER_02: We as journalists and activists have always found it very difficult to find people who will openly talk about being bisexual.
SPEAKER_08: Just don't think they're enough bite perspectives and bisexuals.
SPEAKER_08: I feel like we've got to talk about this while really comfortable doing that.
SPEAKER_08: It can be really intimidating bisexuality not really understood because people have bisexual.
SPEAKER_10: And the second you mention bisexual, just Oh well, you you're still confused, right?
SPEAKER_08: No, I'm not confused.
SPEAKER_08: I've always found myself at the mercy of gay and straight advice.
SPEAKER_01: Another bit of competition to see who's the better bisexual bruncher.
SPEAKER_01: This is bisexual brunch.
SPEAKER_10: So coming up on this episode of Bisexual Brunch, all the pieces of my life in the matter of hours days were just scattered over the floor.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, really overwhelming and desperate.
SPEAKER_10: I just, you know, really hit rock bottom.
SPEAKER_10: That's how I felt.
SPEAKER_10: I felt completely out of control.
SPEAKER_02: How do you cope with finally realizing your bisexuality during a divorce in your early 40s?
SPEAKER_02: Your wife leaves you for someone else, and suddenly you're forced to confront something that's been hidden for decades.
SPEAKER_02: You're actually also attracted to men.
SPEAKER_02: We'll be hearing Kelvin's story on bisexual brunch.
SPEAKER_02: Plus, our very own Tom Ward Thomas revisits his bisexual journey story, which has led to him having his first long-term relationship with a man in his late 30s.
SPEAKER_02: You were open with him at the start about being bi, weren't you, right at the very beginning.
SPEAKER_05: I think I might have mentioned it in a message.
SPEAKER_05: I think I might have done, because I think he was very fine with that.
SPEAKER_05: And he was, and I mean he is kind of he's weirdly finds it quite attractive, actually, that I've had a past women.
SPEAKER_05: Um he finds it quite yeah, attractive.
SPEAKER_11: You've you fetishised.
SPEAKER_05: Maybe, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02: He's been quite a roller coaster for Tom, and he'll be telling us what he's learnt about himself and others over the past four or so years, since he first finally acknowledged his bisexuality and contacted bisexual brunch.
SPEAKER_02: We've two ask a bisexual questions, one asking if bi-romantic is really a thing, and another from a woman contemplating a threesome with her male partner and another man.
SPEAKER_02: All that, plus we've the first ever beat the bisexual, our new game show where we pit our panelists against each other.
SPEAKER_02: On this occasion, Lewis versus Laura are put to the test.
SPEAKER_02: And there'll be details too of how you can possibly join in and bag yourself a special bisexual brunch mug in the process in future episodes.
SPEAKER_02: That's all to come for this edition of Bisexual Brunch.
SPEAKER_01: You're listening to the Bisexual Brunch Podcast.
SPEAKER_02: So another bisexual brunch.
SPEAKER_02: Great to uh chat.
SPEAKER_02: We've not chatted for a while.
SPEAKER_02: I've actually uh been um otherwise engaged in a pretty nasty way over the last couple of months because I've had I had four to five weeks uh on and off of food poisoning.
SPEAKER_02: I had um uh a dog called Campula Bacter and another one called Eustinia.
SPEAKER_02: One was caught from sort of having some uh food that we both me and my partner were eaten, and the other one was from some kind contaminated water.
SPEAKER_02: And I think it had been from the fact that I'd been working in Wales uh in farms for a documentary I was making.
SPEAKER_02: Um and I've been um not handling animals, but I'd been sort of shaking hands with farmers and who were making me tea in barns and things.
SPEAKER_02: So I think that's where it came from.
SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't know if either of you have ever had food poisoning.
SPEAKER_02: Uh I'd never had food poisoning.
SPEAKER_02: I've always often had stomach problems, but I've never had food poisoning in my life, and it was absolutely awful.
SPEAKER_02: I've I've been in hospital over many years, many times for doctors and things.
SPEAKER_02: I was in hospital with sepsis a few years ago, but having food poison was the worst thing ever.
SPEAKER_02: It really, really was because you can't, you know, I I couldn't, I'd lost my appetite completely.
SPEAKER_02: I couldn't drink even a cup of tea.
SPEAKER_02: Um, the only thing I would could eat was melon and fried bread, bizarrely.
SPEAKER_02: It was like two extremes.
SPEAKER_02: What's all that about?
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02: Um, but it was horrible, absolutely horrible.
SPEAKER_02: I couldn't think and concentrate on anything.
SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, nearly on and off for about five weeks, I was really bad with with food poisoning.
SPEAKER_02: Ever either of you ever had food poisoning badly before?
SPEAKER_02: What were you like?
SPEAKER_04: No, I've I've not had it, but I have celiac disease.
SPEAKER_04: So anytime I eat gluten, my body likes to react as if I have any food poisoning.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, you see, that's my problem because I have stomach issues anyway, and and I have I have problems with the pro where my stomach processes things.
SPEAKER_02: And so for me, the problem with having food poisoning is that it was that as my stomach's slow anyway, it was taking even longer to get rid of the food poisoning.
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02: So it's crazy.
SPEAKER_02: I'm better now.
SPEAKER_02: But the other thing I had to do was because it's these bugs are pretty serious, I had to put fill a 30-page government form in about the fact that I'd had food poisoning and where I potentially had got it from and all the rest of it.
SPEAKER_02: Because it's food poisoning is pretty serious, you know.
SPEAKER_02: So there you go.
SPEAKER_02: So yes, I don't recommend food poisoning to anybody, any anybody anytime soon.
SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, so that's one of the reasons why uh we've not had a show for a little while because I've been otherwise engaged, um, yeah, not been able to do anything really.
SPEAKER_02: Um so guys, um bisexuality as per usual is um being talked about uh every now and again in various quarters, uh, but often in a dismissive way, I find at the moment.
SPEAKER_02: Um forums and um, you know, various places where there's discussion about bisexuality, it's the usual thing of being dismissed.
SPEAKER_02: And something I noticed recently, and I've always it a couple of times, is people have used the phrase uh bisexuality is a walk in the park, basically.
SPEAKER_02: People are saying, people are saying, oh you know, you really can't compare being bisexual and the issues that be bisexual people have with the issues that gay people or trans people have.
SPEAKER_02: It's just not serious.
SPEAKER_02: You know, there's not you can't take it seriously what bi people say because actually it's you know, they can they can just get on with it.
SPEAKER_02: They can be in the gay world, they can be in the straight world, they can just, you know, it's just a walk in the park.
SPEAKER_02: Um and I've seen it a few several times, and I just thought to myself, you know, I think there is an I think there is an underlying attitude, or uh a subtle attitude that that's be the way people feel.
SPEAKER_02: So when we we've talked many times about trying to get commissions for various things, and Louis has always tried to get articles, I'm always trying to get radio TV programs off the ground or whatever it may be.
SPEAKER_02: And when you mention bisexuality, it doesn't necessarily get talked about, but there's a sort of there's a groan in a way about it.
SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, why why what's the point?
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02: So Laura, is it a walk in the park?
SPEAKER_02: I mean, are we are we making a fuss about nothing really at the end of the day?
SPEAKER_04: Um I think it's it's really interesting that when people kind of have this mentality, it feels like there's this broad assumption that all bisexuals are in straight presenting relationships, and that can come, straight presenting relationships can come with certain privileges, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04: You know, if me and I have a uh male partner, if me and my partner are traveling, we don't have to worry about our safety in certain areas because of how we present as a couple, it absolutely undeniably does come with certain privileges.
SPEAKER_04: But I think that this assumption that all bi people are in straight presenting relationships and that they're not in queer presenting relationships where they may encounter all of the same discriminations as gay people, as lesbians, but then there's additional biphobia as well.
SPEAKER_04: I mean, if we just look at the stats around kind of like mental health outcomes, we know that bisexual people are really disproportionately affected by a number of different um mental health issues, physical health issues.
SPEAKER_04: So just looking at the data from various studies, various charities, I would definitely know if it's not to walk in the part.
SPEAKER_04: We know that bi people are being kind of targeted from all sides, and they are experiencing homophobia, in many cases transphobia, because there is a big overlap between the bi and the trans community.
SPEAKER_04: Um, but they're also experiencing biphobia as well.
SPEAKER_04: So it's not just a case of biphobia by itself, but also coming with all of these other different types of discrimination that the LGBT community more broadly are also facing.
SPEAKER_04: Um, bi-identities very seldom exist in isolation.
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: So we're talking a moment about bisexual people specifically and overall, but for you, Lewis, you know, I'm sorry, you know, you've got an easy life.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you it's quite quite easy being bi, you know, sort of you know, there's no big issues, are there for you personally?
SPEAKER_09: I mean, you know, I think what's um really sad about when people say that, not only does it irritate me personally, but I think that it's what's really kept bisexual people paralyzed for decades because there's never really been a big focus on our issues and what's going on.
SPEAKER_09: So they're mixed.
SPEAKER_09: It's just assumed, well, if you're in a straight presenting relationship, you've got nothing to worry about because you're helped by you know straight people, and if you're in a same-sex relationship, well then all the work we do for gay, you know.
SPEAKER_09: And it it really leads to people exposed, it doesn't talk about isolation, which I think is a big one.
SPEAKER_09: So many bisexual people feel isolated that they don't know any other bisexual people, they have no other bisexual people in their lives, and they have no one to really talk to about it.
SPEAKER_09: Um obviously being invisible is a big thing, like actually just walking around your life and being like, I don't see anyone like me.
SPEAKER_09: And you know, me walking down the street with my partner, people think it looks straight or gay based on what gender your partner is.
SPEAKER_09: Like it's it's quite um alarming, and it obviously is.
SPEAKER_02: But is that alarming, Lewis?
SPEAKER_02: Is it is it alarming?
SPEAKER_02: Are you what I suppose I'm playing devil's advocate here, but you know, what people are saying is what what gay people are saying, what trans people are saying when they say this, because it's largely them that are saying it, is that no one's threatening you.
SPEAKER_02: You know, your life is okay, you've got a partner, you know, that there's nothing really, you know, you're not experiencing the kind of things that trans people can experience on a daily basis, or even gay people in certain parts of certain parts of the country could experience, whereas because you could just get on with it, you know.
SPEAKER_09: It's so A, I I you know, if they want to have a competition with us, that's up to them.
SPEAKER_09: I don't I'm not taking the bait on, oh well, um you know, I'm this score, the victim mentality chart.
SPEAKER_09: Like it's just it's just all different.
SPEAKER_09: Um I think that we miss unique things that I was trying to get to.
SPEAKER_09: I think one of the big things that we miss a lot is bisexual people staying in relationships too long but often become abusive.
SPEAKER_09: And that's a big part of something that gay people don't experience.
SPEAKER_09: And well, I I can expense with trans people, but um with with with with gay people, for example, you know, they know the gender of the person that they or at least the sex of the of the person they're dating.
SPEAKER_09: Um a lot of bisexual people, their life changes based on the gender of who they are dating.
SPEAKER_09: And that's gonna be quite a tough thing for a lot of bisexuals where they think, oh my god, this girl, I know she's not right for me, but you know, if I leave her, then that you know, I'm not gonna be seen as straight anymore.
SPEAKER_09: And you know, there's just all this other stuff that comes with it that I think is quite isolating for bisexual people.
SPEAKER_09: That that is not really talked about because you know that gay people don't really experience that.
SPEAKER_09: Or what do you mean you're defined by your partner's sexuality, and that means you stay in relationships too long?
SPEAKER_09: You know, there's just so many things that we don't look at.
SPEAKER_09: I mean, that's just one example.
SPEAKER_09: Um absolutely, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: And and Laura, you know, we're talking here, you know, we're all in relationships, um, and there are issues with being by in all of those relationships in terms of invisibility and isolation in different ways and whatever.
SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, separate to that, there are obviously a lot of bi people who are single, and actually being by and single is pretty hard, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02: It's it's very difficult to actually be bi and single.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's interesting.
SPEAKER_04: I saw something um online this week um where somebody was saying, uh it was a lesbian woman was saying, um, oh, I never interact with bisexual women because um I know that they're all gonna end up with a man anyway.
SPEAKER_04: Um and people were saying, like, do you wonder why the by women are ending up with men if lesbians aren't willing to interact with them or talk to them?
SPEAKER_04: Um and I also think like going back to your point about kind of like, is there actually a real risk?
SPEAKER_04: We know that, for example, trans people are uh under attack right now and they're experiencing really real, uh, real-world physical uh risks to their health, their well-being, to being able to just live in peace.
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I think some people don't think of bisexuality as something that is in some ways, people are more of a risk.
SPEAKER_04: But talking about specifically like bi-women, I imagine this is true for some by men as well, but I think by women specifically are really, really hypersexualized by largely speaking straight men.
SPEAKER_04: Um, and queer women generally experience that.
SPEAKER_04: So lesbians are absolutely experiencing this kind of hypersexualization as well.
SPEAKER_04: But the difference being is that those lesbians are not necessarily going to be in relationships with the person who is hypersexualizing them, and we know that there are higher rates of sexual violence towards bi women.
SPEAKER_04: Um, when I was a teenager, I was in a relationship with a man who really hypersexualized my identity and it made for a very unsafe relationship for me in a really unsafe situation.
SPEAKER_04: So we know that you know the fact that bi women are being hypersexualized, but also because they are then dating the very men who might be hypersexualizing them, there is that real risk of sexual abuse, sexual violence.
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I think that that if you're safe on as well, and if you're dating and if you're dating a lot of people, then how do you know if you're just on a date and you mention that you're bi?
SPEAKER_04: How do you know that you're in a safe situation where that isn't gonna be taken as, oh, well, you know, if you're bi, you must be up for anything and you must be really sexually promiscuous so I can do whatever I want to you.
SPEAKER_04: Um it's really challenging, I think.
SPEAKER_04: I think it's really scary to be a bi woman who's trying to date, whether you're trying to date women or men, there's kind of am I gonna be accepted, am I gonna be seen, am I gonna be safe in these spaces?
SPEAKER_02: And it's the same for men, isn't it, Louis?
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know, you you get a lot of guys contacting you.
SPEAKER_02: Um sometimes they contact you as a bi dad, but um I presume you you sort of also get people contacting you just generally uh about being bisexual.
SPEAKER_02: And you know, as a as a bi man, say young bi-man, just you know, starting out, it it's quite hard to sort of navigate the whole world of of both um straight and gay dating, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02: I mean, where do you start?
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, I think I you know it's weird because some things never change in a in a strange world.
SPEAKER_09: You know, for bisexual men, there is always this presumption that their attraction to men is the strongest one.
SPEAKER_09: So they're seen as gay.
SPEAKER_09: Um, you know, that then puts a lot of women off dating them.
SPEAKER_09: So a lot of them will reach out to me and say, Oh my god, you know, should I even be honest about being bisexual?
SPEAKER_09: Because, you know, so many women won't want to date me.
SPEAKER_09: I may as well just have come out as gay.
SPEAKER_09: So the men that want to date me anyway.
SPEAKER_09: Um and then you know, you have a lot of people that bury their bisexuality for years, they know it's there, and then they wake up in their 40s, you know, married, kids, mortgage, and then they realize, oh my god, I've been playing this straight character for so long.
SPEAKER_09: Like, I just want to know my wife actually loves me.
SPEAKER_09: Could she accept this about me?
SPEAKER_09: Usually she can't.
SPEAKER_09: Um and it's really, you know, it's it can it can be really tricky for for men as well, and trying to figure out what your bisexuality even looks like.
SPEAKER_09: So we keep saying bisexuality does have to like bisexuality, like it's you know, my understanding and your version of bisexuality is the same thing.
SPEAKER_09: Like it's bisexuality is so weird because you can be romantically attracted to someone and sexually attracted to someone else, and it's never quite 50-50, and then it adds and flows over time, and you're like, oh, actually, maybe that wasn't what I wanted.
SPEAKER_09: Like, it's so confusing.
SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, how do how do people cope with that?
SPEAKER_02: Like it's never been an issue for me because my bisexuality, I wouldn't say it was fixed, but but I I definitely know that I'm bisexual.
SPEAKER_02: I understand I'm bisexual, and so that's never been an issue for me.
SPEAKER_02: But I often hear from people now talk a lot about fluidity of their sexuality, that it's changed in different places and different times.
SPEAKER_02: And how do you come to terms with that and understand that, Laura?
SPEAKER_02: How do you, you know, because there's nobody out there saying, well, actually, that fluidity is okay, you know, that's not a problem.
SPEAKER_02: There's nobody telling you that, is there?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, um, there's a really good book actually called Fluid that came out last year by Mark Hussack, which specifically explores sort of bisexuality and being kind of having a fluid um orientation.
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, we've I think we've had I think we've had him on the show actually.
SPEAKER_02: I think he's on a new show.
SPEAKER_04: Um, but yeah, I would I recommend people go check that out.
SPEAKER_04: It can be challenging, it can be difficult if you, you know, um if you are in a long-term relationship and your sexuality kind of like ebbs and flows.
SPEAKER_04: Um but I think that generally being trying to be just open to that and curious about that is what's really important.
SPEAKER_04: And anytime that you're trying to suppress some part of yourself, that isn't gonna go well for you, as Lewis was saying.
SPEAKER_04: Um, so it can be challenging, but you know, I'm sort of similar.
SPEAKER_04: Like I as long as I've known I was bisexual, I've been attracted to multiple genders, but that does change.
SPEAKER_04: I go through, you know, there'll be periods of my life where um I'm sort of more attracted to women, or I find that I sort of have like a higher frequency of attraction to women, and then times where I'm really all about men, and it it just it just changes.
SPEAKER_04: Um, and fortunately that's never been an issue for me in my relationships because I've always been, no matter where I've been, I've always been attracted to my partner, which is lovely.
SPEAKER_04: Um, but some people might not have that, and they might actually find that they're going through periods where they're not feeling as sexual towards their partner, and maybe they have the romantic attraction there, but the sexual attraction maybe not so much.
SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, I feel like people go through sort of dry spells sexually in their relationship for a whole number of reasons and come through the other side, you know, life patterns, people have kids or they have busy schedules, and you know, people don't necessarily see that as a disaster.
SPEAKER_04: Um, so maybe trying to view it in that way, in terms of like if you're you're having a dry spell because your attraction is just a bit different that month, um, that doesn't have to mean the end of your relationship.
SPEAKER_04: It can just mean that you're going through um this period of time and you know that attraction will come back.
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, a lot of the people we talk what you talk to about, you know, one of the people you you will hear on this show that this time uh talks about that and about you know how things have changed over over time or whatever.
SPEAKER_02: And and um but there what they also say is that there is nowhere to go to hear these things, to have things replicated.
SPEAKER_02: That bisexual brunch is probably the only places that they hear that, you know, which is fantastic in many ways that we're giving we're we're giving that kind of service that people under, you know, we're we're showing that there are varieties of bisexuality, but there's nothing else out there.
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what's missing, isn't it, Lewis?
SPEAKER_02: That the fact that we've got we've we've discussed this many times before, we've got all these great organizations, you know, the LGF, Les Miguel Foundation, we've got the you know, we've got Stonewall, we've got various organizations linked to the NHS and whatever, mental health organizations and whatever.
SPEAKER_02: But no one really is tackling the bisexual issue, really, are they?
SPEAKER_02: Nobody's talking about it, nobody's really enabling people to express themselves, um, and and reflecting back that actually these things that people are going through, these questions they have about themselves, these changes, are actually quite normal about being a human being.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, um, it's really weird.
SPEAKER_09: Like we've been, you know, I've been doing this for 10 years now.
SPEAKER_09: Um and it honestly perplexes me that even if they just did it from a shallow point of view of it turns out there's more bisexuals than gay people, lesbians or trans people.
SPEAKER_09: Like maybe we should just go to the masses because we'll get bigger engagement.
SPEAKER_09: They just have they just still couldn't hold their nose long enough to talk about bisexuality or really champion those issues.
SPEAKER_09: I don't understand what it is.
SPEAKER_09: So I think there's enough of us doing work in the space now where it's like, well, clearly there's an audience, like clearly, you know, like Laura's written a book, I've written a book, Mark's written a book, like, and that's just three people.
SPEAKER_09: Like the so like with if we're able to sell books, like there's clearly people that are willing to not just pay because it shouldn't just be about money, but there's clearly people that are looking for this kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_09: So that would mean that maybe these organizations aren't doing it.
SPEAKER_09: Um so I just don't understand why they do it to keep the hint.
SPEAKER_09: And they can't say they don't know because I've told them.
SPEAKER_02: And if they listen to bisexual fronts, there are people literally who come to us.
SPEAKER_02: Because they see us as a as a lifesaver.
SPEAKER_02: You know, we're the kind of they've never they've never heard bisexuality talked about before.
SPEAKER_02: So they they they want to engage with bisexualists.
SPEAKER_02: The guy who's on this week's this time show talked about the fact he wants to give something back because he recognises that his story as as a guy who's divorced who's just been divorced and is coming to terms with sexuality that other people may feel the same.
SPEAKER_02: That there are people out there that might connect with that.
SPEAKER_02: So we are in a way creating a community, um, but um it's being sort of bypassed in a way.
SPEAKER_02: So I suppose the upshot of this is the conversation we started off was is it a walk in the park?
SPEAKER_02: I think conclusively, um it's not a walk in the park, is it, Laura?
SPEAKER_04: No, and on the subject of kind of the amount of stuff that is out there and the books that are out there, I it's great that we have all of this stuff, but we're also having like there's new firsts all the time.
SPEAKER_04: So my book, for example, which came out last year, was the first bisexual guide for teenagers that didn't exist before.
SPEAKER_04: You either have like generic LGBT guides, which are very helpful, but they don't dive into bisexuality specifically, or you had buy guides that were sort of aimed for older audiences or were a bit more kind of like generic.
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I just I find it crazy that it took until 2025 to to have that.
SPEAKER_04: And part of the reason I wrote the book was because I needed that when I was like 12, 13, that would have been incredible.
SPEAKER_04: And then I got to my late 20s and it still didn't exist.
SPEAKER_04: So the fact that we did we still have gaps that are being discovered and we still have areas where we need more representation, and I just kind of feel like you know, people might say, Oh, well, there's there's so much out there at the moment, but if you are if you fall into a specific group or if you have a specific kind of like intersection of identities, or you're a certain age, maybe you haven't yet found the resource that is best for you.
SPEAKER_04: Um I think you're right, you're not seen.
SPEAKER_02: I think you're right.
SPEAKER_02: I think there are things out there.
SPEAKER_02: I think, and again, there are more and more books and things coming out, and things, and you know, if you if you want to search for stuff on the internet, you'll you'll find things.
SPEAKER_02: You know, people there are people representing every kind of bisexual out there to an extent.
SPEAKER_02: But the problem is that the no there's no real noise.
SPEAKER_02: So that the masses are it's not on the masses radar that bisexuality is a thing.
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02: That's the issue, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02: That people aren't really, you know, I think it's very difficult.
SPEAKER_02: All the people we speak to on bisexual front have have found it difficult in recent years, and fairly young people, not just older people, that you know, they they found it really difficult actually uh telling other people that they're that they're bisexual, you know, and you think actually in 2026 that really wouldn't be a big issue.
SPEAKER_02: I have had people who say to me, Well, that's not really an issue anymore.
SPEAKER_02: And there are people who are enlightened in certain circles and you know saying you're bisexualists, what's the big deal?
SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean, in fact, what's the fuss about?
SPEAKER_02: People do say that and and they're fine about it, whatever.
SPEAKER_02: But for a lot of people, it it it's a it's a trauma, it's a very difficult thing.
SPEAKER_02: Now, a bisexual mate of mine says he it was you know he he found it really hard talking to certain people about being bisexual because it was a a big event for him, but they didn't see it as a big event.
SPEAKER_02: So they were people who were quite liberal-minded about things, so it's a big it was, but it wasn't a huge thing to them, and that actually affected him as well.
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02: Because actually, when you come out, whether it's gay, bi or whatever, to an extent, you do want it to be a big event, don't you, in a way, because you want to be.
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_04: This is exactly the situation I had with my parents.
SPEAKER_04: Um, I came out when I was like 20, I think.
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I was in a relationship with my partner at the time.
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I was like crying when I came out to my parents.
SPEAKER_04: I was really like, even though I'd not had any, I hadn't had any indication that there would be an issue, it was just such a nerve-wracking thing and something I'd been keeping to myself since I was about 12 years old.
SPEAKER_04: Um, and they didn't understand why I was my mum especially really didn't understand.
SPEAKER_04: She's like, Why are you crying?
SPEAKER_04: Like, why is this a big deal?
SPEAKER_04: And I think they were also a bit confused about why I was telling them, given that I was in a relationship with a man.
SPEAKER_04: Um they were sort of like, why is this relevant?
SPEAKER_04: If you if you have if you have a relationship, then why is this important?
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I sort of have to explain that you know, just because I'm in a relationship, that that part of my identity is still relevant and it's still something that you know is important to me.
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I do think, yeah, that that idea of like being in a relationship and therefore your bisexuality is totally irrelevant.
SPEAKER_04: Or you know, not a feeling like, oh well, coming out is no big deal and no one cares.
SPEAKER_04: Because even though my parents were lovely, it's totally no vacuum for me to come out because I didn't know I wasn't 100% sure.
SPEAKER_04: And part of the reason I didn't come out until I was um A, not living at home, I was living at uni, and B that I was in a relationship with a man was so that if it did go badly, I could sort of have that independence, and it wasn't like I was gonna get kicked out because I'd heard of again, my parents had never given any indication of this, but I had friends whose parents had said, you know, if you're gay, that's it, like you're out of the house.
SPEAKER_04: Um, and that you know, that sticks with you, that makes you scared when you're yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: And I think this is part of, isn't it, isn't it, that um this whole thing about you being a walk in the park, I suppose, is that people feel as though we can sort of um, as we said right at the beginning, you can decide to be, you know, in a relationship with uh somebody of the opposite sex, and then that issue of you know same-sex attraction is out of the way.
SPEAKER_02: It's it's sort of it doesn't matter anymore, does it?
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02: But actually, as a bisexual person, it does matter, Lewis, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02: It matters that we are recognised that as as bi people.
SPEAKER_02: It still matters to you, doesn't it, Lewis, that friends and family.
SPEAKER_02: I know everyone knows you're bisexual, we know that, but but it's it still matters to you that friends and family and whatever understand your bisexuality, yeah.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_09: And look, um, I know people get offended when I say this, but it it would be, you know, I I explain it straight football people is like, imagine if you were a Manchester City fan and you were LF tell anyone and you had to just pretend that you were a Man United fan.
SPEAKER_09: You just were like you're saying it just would feel off to you.
SPEAKER_09: Um, you know, if you were just made to be part of things that you're just not part of.
SPEAKER_09: Like if someone made me go to church every Sunday, I'd be like, oh, I just didn't fit in here, like, do I?
SPEAKER_09: So it's just one of those things where it's like not being able to be your true self is really hard, especially when your true self, it's not bad.
SPEAKER_09: Like, we're not secretly vampires or murderers, like where you could be like, oh, come on, like um, you know, we we you know, we get it, we're bad for society, but we're not like we're not causing any trouble.
SPEAKER_02: No, you're right, we're not causing any trouble.
SPEAKER_02: Well, hold your thoughts there, both of you, because we're gonna talk uh uh more later on about uh a particular area where uh bisexuals certainly aren't having a walk in the park.
SPEAKER_02: Um, conversion therapy has reared its head again, and finally it looks as though the government is about to act on it, and quite a lot of bisexual people get themselves caught up uh in being targeted by people carrying out conversion therapy.
SPEAKER_02: We'll be talking about that a little bit later on.
SPEAKER_02: Lots more to come on bisexual brunch.
SPEAKER_02: We've of course got two ask a bisexual questions coming up, um, and we've got Beat the Bisexual, which is our new game show on bisexual brunch.
SPEAKER_02: Uh, a lot of groans from uh Laura uh and Lewis about doing this, I have to tell you.
SPEAKER_02: They're all very silent now in the background there.
SPEAKER_02: Um being put through their paces a little bit later on on a very short um first episode of Beat the Bisexual.
SPEAKER_02: I think it's quite easy really.
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, that's to come a little bit later on.
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but also um we've also got two bisexual journey stories this time round.
SPEAKER_02: We're going to be hearing from our very own Tom Ward Thomas, who's gonna talk to us about uh his bisexual journey, uh, revisiting his bisexual journey, of course, because he he he came to us uh about four or five years ago and told us his original story, and now he's updating it to tell us how he's found love for the first time with a man um uh in his late 30s.
SPEAKER_02: So that's coming up a little bit later on.
SPEAKER_02: But in a moment, uh we're going to be hearing Kelvin's story.
SPEAKER_02: Kelvin is a 42-year-old man um from the south of England who has recently been divorced.
SPEAKER_02: It's all quite a shock, really, because, or he's going through a divorce, all quite a shock really, because his wife suddenly decided to tell him that she'd been having an affair and um yeah, it's all happened.
SPEAKER_02: It's a what he calls a rupture.
SPEAKER_02: Um, we'll be finding out all about that in a moment, about how also he's discovered his bisexuality through this divorce.
SPEAKER_02: That's coming up in a moment on Bisexual Brunch.
SPEAKER_02: Bisexual brunch is made by volunteers with made in Manchester Productions slipping us whatever spare research and studio time they can find down the back of the sofa.
SPEAKER_02: We've got no sponsor, no ads, just you lot.
SPEAKER_02: If you want to keep us going, you can drop us a one-off or regular donation at buymeacoffee.com forward slash info59.
SPEAKER_02: That's buymeacoffee.com forward slash info59.
SPEAKER_02: It genuinely keeps the show alive.
SPEAKER_01: You're listening to the bisexual brunch podcast.
SPEAKER_02: It's bisexual brunch, and we've got another bisexual journey story, and um this time we're talking to somebody who um uh has come to terms with their bisexuality, I think to an extent later in life, though I I think you probably knew about it much earlier, um, and you'll be able to tell us about that in a moment.
SPEAKER_02: Um, but you're going through a bit of a big change in your life at the moment.
SPEAKER_02: You're you're dealing with a divorce and all the rest of it, and it's all come to a head around now.
SPEAKER_02: Tell us, tell us where you are at this moment.
SPEAKER_10: Uh where am I this moment?
SPEAKER_10: Um, yeah, I'm I'm I'm 42.
SPEAKER_10: I'm at a stage of life where in the last 18 months or so my life has taken a few turns, which has given me an opportunity to reflect more on myself.
SPEAKER_10: Um I have been married for a long period of time.
SPEAKER_10: I'm a dad of two young children, and um I suppose probably for a very long period of time, I I felt like I was on an escalator in life, going in a in a well-defined direction, uh a well-trodden path, and to some extent um following what was expected of me, or maybe what I expected of myself, um, and then through consequence um uh or through situation, I I found myself um being forced to some extent to reflect on myself more.
SPEAKER_10: Um so that that's where I've been in the last 18 months and where I am still, which is kind of nice.
SPEAKER_02: So it's it's brought things to a head, and uh this I suppose this is where you started thinking a bit about your your sexuality and where you are.
SPEAKER_02: Um while you've been married for such a long time and you've been your relationship, you've got kids and all the rest of it, has the feelings of um the bisexual side of you, i.e.
SPEAKER_02: the fact that you uh find some attraction to men and to women, um did that rear its head in any way, shape, or form?
SPEAKER_10: Um during the marriage and and prior to that, I I suppose I I I've always been queer, always been bisexual, I've always had an attraction to men and women in some respects throughout my life.
SPEAKER_10: Um but it's only been in the in this last 18 months that I've taken the time to properly work that out.
SPEAKER_10: Um I grew up in a period of time where um things felt very binary.
SPEAKER_10: As a boy growing up, I would hear things in the playground.
SPEAKER_10: Um and I think earlier on in life it was it was very easy to think of things as being straight and gay, that that very simplistic binary view of things.
SPEAKER_10: And and and whilst I'd heard the word bisexual and bisexuality, I I I never really considered kind of what that was really and to what extent that might relate to me and my experience.
SPEAKER_10: Um so so yeah, looking back over my life, um I don't consider that I've changed particularly, but but my experience in all those years through my relationships um has led me to where I am now.
SPEAKER_10: Um and it's only really in the last 18 months since coming out of a very long, well a long marriage and a and a very long relationship with a woman that I that I I've reflected on that more and recognized, well, what what is this sense of attraction to men?
SPEAKER_10: And and and and now I've been given the opportunity to explore that more.
SPEAKER_10: I can see it more clearly in the context of bisexuality, um, in that kind of beautiful middle ground that sits between gay and straight.
SPEAKER_10: And I just I just didn't feel equipped um to to understand that and to feel that prior to prior to very recently.
SPEAKER_02: And when you're in your relationship, was it were you very committed?
SPEAKER_02: Were you in a situation whereby you've got a you know sexual relationship as well as a romantic relationship?
SPEAKER_02: It was it was everything basically.
SPEAKER_02: So in in other words, like most people, a lot of people who are bisexual, they you know I mean there's this thing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02: Oh, bi people are just at it all the time, etc.
SPEAKER_02: Well, a lot of bi people uh settle down with whoever they end up meeting.
SPEAKER_02: And presumably that was the same for you.
SPEAKER_02: You were committed to that relationship and that person both sexually and and and emotionally for quite a long time.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_10: I I I think I probably I think I'm probably a little bit demisexual as well.
SPEAKER_10: Um, and so again, recognizing all the nuance that sits between relationship attraction and sexual attraction and also how that kind of changes in time.
SPEAKER_10: Um I um I never I've never had I never had a sexual encounter or relationship encounter with with with a close relationship encounter with a man until you know a few months ago.
SPEAKER_10: Um so you know, 41 on 40, almost 42 years of my life, um always um being drawn to relationships with women, not many women, I hasten to add, um, prior to meeting my my ex, and there was a spell I was at university where you know you you take the opportunity to to see and um enjoy attraction.
SPEAKER_10: Um and and and but then I met my ex at university, and so we had almost 20 years together in in a stable relationship.
SPEAKER_10: And um and absolutely with you know, across that period, um a strong sense of commitment, both you know, relationally and and sexually, um, to the extent that we you went on to have you know a relatively long marriage and and two children, and and feeling absolutely committed to that.
SPEAKER_10: And as it turned out, I think without me necessarily recognising it, um, there was a drift um in the last few years between my ex and I.
SPEAKER_10: And I suppose to some extent for me, I put that down to you know being weighed down through the pressures of everyday life.
SPEAKER_10: You know, when you when you approach 40, you've got you know too big a mortgage, you've got not got enough hours in the day, you've got the pressures of young children, um and and and everything else.
SPEAKER_10: And and in some senses it it squeezes it squeezes things to a point where you don't necessarily dedicate um as much as what you need to to sustain a healthy relationship.
SPEAKER_10: Um, and it was really just through a rupture towards the back end of that relationship that my my ex um found in love elsewhere and she she had an affair and she she fell in love with someone.
SPEAKER_10: And um through her saying that to me, and it was a massive shock.
SPEAKER_10: I I whilst I I appreciate things weren't particularly um healthy between us, we you know we didn't argue particularly, but we definitely drifted.
SPEAKER_10: I I recognise that for sure.
SPEAKER_10: Um it was a real shock that that that she fall in love with someone.
SPEAKER_10: And and I think I think just observing, I think in part reacting to what happened to her and um the reaction, but also the observation of what happened had happened to her, it made me question well, you know, what is this connection?
SPEAKER_10: What is this thing that you you've clearly been lacking in our relationship that perhaps I'm also lacking that I hadn't necessarily given myself time to consider more fully?
SPEAKER_10: Um so it was really through this rupture in in my marriage that made me made me reflect.
SPEAKER_02: Um Yeah, no, interesting, very interesting.
SPEAKER_02: And and it's not unusual that quite a few people um get to this point.
SPEAKER_02: And um, of course, having a divorce um makes you question what's what's next, what you know, where where are you going next?
SPEAKER_02: So had you never uh been tempted in all those years to either stray or or even just I mean, what was your you you obviously are bisexual, you saw guys who were attractive, what did you do about that?
SPEAKER_02: Did you ever do anything about it at all?
SPEAKER_02: Did you ever get close to anybody male-wise?
SPEAKER_10: For much of my life, I suppose just having a sense of, oh, that guy is quite attractive and got good looking.
SPEAKER_10: Um, and then made me thinking, like, well, don't don't other men know kind of what good-looking men look like?
SPEAKER_10: And so and normalizing it to some extent, like that's that's isn't that typical?
SPEAKER_10: Like most people kind of know, kind of or have a sense of kind of that's that guy's good looking.
SPEAKER_10: You know, you hear it a lot in in women's circles about you know women complimenting other women in that sense.
SPEAKER_10: So I suppose there was a parallel there in my mind.
SPEAKER_10: Um I I never had, I never felt a sense of attraction in either direction with a man ever in my life.
SPEAKER_10: Um, and that wasn't and and I also never detected attraction that I resisted either.
SPEAKER_10: Um and like I say, I I I just felt, you know, to a large extent, at least in my conscious, of being comfortable and feeling content in the relationships that I that I've been in with women.
SPEAKER_10: So um and then obviously in the last few months, you know, feeling freer and feeling more able to explore that, it's given me a sense of what what what is that now?
SPEAKER_10: And kind of doing it in my own time at my at my own pace.
SPEAKER_10: Um yeah, which is nice.
SPEAKER_02: Um okay, well we'll talk about that in a second, but in terms of you as a couple, did you have did you often have you know quite a few gay friends?
SPEAKER_02: Did you ever know did you know any other bi people at all, both of you?
SPEAKER_02: Were you no?
SPEAKER_10: Don't not not knowingly um any bi people.
SPEAKER_10: I grew up in a family where um my uncle uh is gay, and so um from as far back as I can remember, spending Christmases with with him and his partners um early on in life and getting to know them um in that way.
SPEAKER_10: Um and so he was he was you know always there, always present in my life um as a as a as a gay man.
SPEAKER_10: I only learned recently in the last few months that he used to date women prior to coming out as gay in his early 20s, and then on the back of a long relationship with a man um approaching his 50s, he he he he then went back to dating women.
SPEAKER_10: And um I never heard him kind of talk about that.
SPEAKER_10: And I suppose to some extent, you know, he he said, you know, there is an attraction there, and I was interested in exploring it again kind of midlife, but then he he he you he decided that he was more attracted to men and he's now settled down, he's married to a man, um, which is brilliant.
SPEAKER_10: But I I never I never heard that, never kind of thought, well, maybe you maybe are maybe you'll be but bite as well.
SPEAKER_10: Um so but then in terms of in terms of our wider kind of network of friends and family, no, not a lot of exposure really to to to the community, to LGBTQ plus friends, family, it was pretty limited, frankly.
SPEAKER_10: Um okay.
SPEAKER_02: So you get to this point, um, you've suddenly got this space to explore this part of you which you've never explored before.
SPEAKER_02: How on earth did you go about it?
SPEAKER_02: What how did you start?
SPEAKER_02: Where did you begin?
SPEAKER_10: Um so yeah, like I said, it's it was it was it was it was it all came about through um a period of crisis, really.
SPEAKER_10: Um I it wasn't something I necessarily chose to do, it was uh, like I said, a rupture where I was confronted with this news that my my wife had fallen in love with someone else.
SPEAKER_10: And um my my instinct to that was um how can I save what we had?
SPEAKER_10: Um and then it very quickly pivoted to well what how can we make sense of this and how can we move forward together with a view that we you know learn from this and create a new life that's slightly different, that's still fulfilling, that means we can stay together, and it doesn't result in us going our separate way, so to speak, and all the consequences of of divorce and everything else.
SPEAKER_10: Um but but after a kind of a few weeks of what proved to be fairly futile conversation with with my ex and and and and concluding that really she'd made her mind up a long time ago, this was not something that that um had happened within weeks.
SPEAKER_10: Really, she'd been probably sitting on a form of silent divorce and separation and and and falling in love with someone else.
SPEAKER_10: um for a for a for a combination of falling over someone else but also drifting away from me for a very long time probably years I think um so um so yeah it was a moment of crisis and and so I sought therapy and I had um how did that make you how did that make you feel just personally that that fact that you've committed to this person for such a long time suddenly they're revealing that they've been thinking about something else for so long how did it make you feel um I I'll never forget the moment in which you told me and um and I never I've never felt shock um like that and so so physically on me I don't think I slept in it for about four days and then that kind of shock then moving into a stage of stress and confusion and I suppose to some extent really just simply put it it felt like my life that I'd been building for for most of my life um we'd been together for almost 20 years we'd we'd not only um we you know we traveled together we worked abroad together we'd um supported each other's careers together we'd we built a family home together we had two children um you know this was this was kind of you know we you know there's been a lot of effort put into this and it just felt like simply put that my whole life had blown up and um all the pieces of my life in the matter of hours days were just scattered over the floor and yeah really overwhelming and and desperate I just you know really hit rock bottom that's how I felt I felt completely out of control um you know prior to that I probably was in a period of life where I was delusional and to some extent was was trying to manage things that were frankly out of my control and um probably in a probably kind of had spent too long in life um with that identity of being a husband and being a dad and provider and lost the sense of myself.
SPEAKER_10: So on the back of what was a very kind of shocking stressful period um I had to kind of force myself to to to think you know constructively and you know when when you're a dad of two young kids you you know that you have to put yourself first because if you don't you're not going to survive this and and you're not gonna provide you know continue to provide for them which was which which was my which was my priority.
SPEAKER_02: So that that then you know worked its way into the sessions I had through therapy and um and then then conversations I had with my therapist in relation to myself in the context to to what I was facing um in my did you talk directly about your sexuality to your therapist and what do they like about it because because what we discover in a lot of the interviews that we do on bisexual mentor you've probably heard some of this is that there isn't necessarily often a an acknowledgement of bisexuality it's often shoved to one side people don't necessarily always recognise it in these counseling sessions.
SPEAKER_02: Were they quite open to that?
SPEAKER_10: So I had two I've had two two forms of therapy um in the last 18 months one was through an employee assistance program through my employer which was a um a fairly light touch support and when I and that was the first moment in which I introduced the I've got no idea what's going on in my life but I just wonder whether this bit of me has got something to do with it and and and I and I and that was the first time that I c pretty much I think the first time it crossed my lips with a with a with a stranger saying I might be gay.
SPEAKER_10: And this this counselor at the end of the phone um helped to initially to navigate some of that.
SPEAKER_10: But I I also very quickly sensed after a couple of weeks of conversations with with that individual that I didn't feel comfortable continuing with that counsellor and therefore I then sought through my um medical insurance another therapist who who specializes in um LGBTQ plus affirmation and her whole practice is is is centered to supporting our community and and she's gay herself she's she's married and she has a child um and that and that that relationship I had with her um which lasted almost a year was was was really the the work you know to allow us you know a safe space and and and and supportive space to to recognise kind of you know where I sat relative to to my evolving world not not and certainly not from a you know bisexuality didn't really feature kind of particularly early on in the conversation it was it was it was much more kind of you know it was much more a case of me giving given the space to to see for myself the nuance that sits between those binaries but you know and and not just about gay and straight but also right and wrong and a sense of you know truth and lies and everything else that's kind of wrapped up in what it what like I described what was a was a major rupture in my life.
SPEAKER_10: That's helped you it helped you did it you came out of that feeling better yeah absolutely I mean I I can only put it it sounds cliche but surviving you know like I said I think when you're going through life like I described earlier a bit a bit of an escalator but it's it's a fairly predictable escalator.
SPEAKER_10: And then having something like that kind of a rupture that kind of the bottom of your your your your your world just falls falls through you know it forces you to to to to look for you know those those um safety nets you know those those those those those things that kind of help you bring a bit of buoyancy the bit of positivity back in your life and therapy's absolutely been a fundamental kind of backbone to to my last year and a bit um alongside lots of other things that I've had to do you know in terms of self-care and um and and and taking my time and and sticking to my values frankly because you know it has been it has been super testing and you know not notwithstanding the questions I have around my um sexual identity there's also what feels like a bit of an assault in respect to me as an as an individual anyway.
SPEAKER_10: You know coming out of a long relationship you know I'm now a single divorced queer dad um and all those things kind of have their own challenges.
SPEAKER_10: But therapy's been been brilliant and I found I found a really good therapist and absolutely integral to to my better understanding who I am alongside lots of other things including your podcast and other materials out there.
SPEAKER_02: Fantastic well I'm glad we're glad we're able to help um so you listen to a lot of these conversations we have on bisexual culture a lot of the time the conversation as you know is is is often about whether or not people have felt comfortable they are actually bisexual sometimes people have drifted down one route and another route um and you know we we we discover that people's sexuality a lot of the time is for many many people is fluid how has it felt for you overall do you have do you think you've always felt underneath that you are by as it were that you're not necessarily not you're not gone through this thing of being on some trajectory one way or another and found yourself in particular area you've you actually you know when you've been with your wife you actually felt that you you know if if if that relationship hadn't have happened uh you might have been in in the in the realms of being able to date men and women and whatever you know do you think you were always you've always felt of yourself as as bisexual I I I found I found it I found I found it really enlightening but also to some extent disappointing um the reaction to to to to me coming out in the last um a few months um and to some extent so so it's a it's a it was a it was a tricky one to some extent because because through circumstance my coming out was forced I didn't really have a choice and so although I did take it upon myself to speak to my own family and my close friends it in the right time in the right way but in terms of in terms of other people and the wider community my ex actually did that for me.
SPEAKER_10: So I was living through a period where I didn't have any idea what she was saying and to some extent I suppose being paranoid as to well what is it she's saying because I know having heard from her that she she questions bisexuality she is skeptical of that she thinks I'm confused she thinks I was I was always posited and frankly I've been hiding something for for decades whereas my my truth is is that I think over the course of my life there's there's been moments in which I have questioned some things but um but but but in part through that lens of gay and straight and and always feeling more comfortable being in the straight world and and and and therefore sitting in that and being content in that and never and never feel and never feeling compelled to stray into into the other side of things.
SPEAKER_10: But also in the context of not necessarily necessarily recognizing that there's a nice middle ground.
SPEAKER_10: I just never really thought about it.
SPEAKER_10: I just and I I just I never I never thought I think I mean I I suppose to some extent you know I knew there was an element of me that was a bit queer and I used that language now being a bit more informed.
SPEAKER_10: At the time I wouldn't have used that language in my head I would have used something like well my uncle's gay um there's something here about you know seeing an attractive man and kind of sensing he's attractive but I'm also sitting next to my girlfriend my wife and I know she's attractive and we've got a relationship and I'm committed to that and so it's it's nice.
SPEAKER_10: So so I never I never I never yeah like I said I never kind of felt the urge to have a relationship with a man to explore that ever.
SPEAKER_10: And now I'm at a point where I'm where I can and again being the being at that point now and I suppose to some extent you know still fairly new on the scene and and and and recognizing kind of you know what what degree of attraction there is between myself and men I'm still in that kind of that space of making sense of it um feeling a bit more informed feeling with the having a sense of experience and and and trying to make sense of it relative to me but also really importantly in that in that place that's quite comfortable like I I don't I'm not I'm not at one end or the other I am comfortably in the middle and the work I need to do now to put it frankly is I need to strike a better balance between me being very comfortable and the world not being comfortable.
SPEAKER_10: And that's the tension and I'm still learning that people's discomfort does not should not translate to my shame and that's something that I just need to continue to hone.
SPEAKER_10: And it is that that we do live in a world that is very binary.
SPEAKER_10: It loves putting things in boxes and there is no kind of tolerance for for for for ambiguity or nuance um but I'm not going to live my life you know being forced to to go in a box that I'm not comfortable in.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah and is that you just said you said that um you've been a bit disappointed with the sort of the reactions is that the issue you you felt that people just haven't understood they don't understand where you're coming from they they want to they want to show you in a box is that what you're finding yeah I it it is is that is that I think I think as humans we probably feel like we want to be understood.
SPEAKER_10: You know but again it goes back to this this point I made earlier about me living most of my life um deluded to think I I can have much more control than I can you know if people want to put me in box if people want to continue to misunderstand me that's that's not something that's gonna weigh me down.
SPEAKER_10: I'm not gonna live my life I know early on in my coming out um process with my close family I I was relaying some of the things that I was hearing second hand and my close family who care for me and they you know they they they protect me would say but you've got to correct them you've got to counter this thing that's being said about you and and even then I said why what's the point I am not going to live my life trying to counter some narrative and try to educate people about bisexuality and this happy middle ground I'm not gonna do that's not my mission.
SPEAKER_10: I'm gonna live my my life I'm gonna stick to my integrity my undervalues that matter to me and and it's for other people um to take the opportunity to educate themselves all I can do is focus on myself and and and and yeah continue to kind of grow just tell just tell them to listen just tell them to listen to bisexual brunch well yes I think because that is a good that is a good place to to learn a lot.
SPEAKER_02: So so with your with your wife then what I'm just trying to get in my head is when did you actually come out to her or did you always sort of given a notion that you were bisexual at some point in the past or when did that happen?
SPEAKER_10: So there's there's two there's two two elements I suppose to to to her understanding of um my sexual orientation should we say one is um one is actually at university so where we met at university and we were friends for a period of time and then we started dating and towards the back end of university um like most people do they they they consider what's next there is that kind of unsettled unknown period that follows university and um there was one evening where I had had too much to drink and sat on the steps of um our leavers ball at the university and um it just something hit me something overcame me as a sense of maybe I'm gay and I said out loud and she was next to me um and the next day I kind of sobered up and reflected on it a bit and I did I did reflect on it a bit but but again in that place of well am I gay because I don't really feel gay actually I still feel straight I've woken up straight but I I went to bed feeling a bit gay and I said it and um and she was part of that that that happening not really a conversation as such that I can point to but certainly that happening um and and then we and then we carry on with we we dated and and and we and we ended up getting married and having children etc so that that was one kind of signal but we never spoke about it we never ever returned to that never spoke about it and I did raise that with her um more recently in the last year and and she said well I just dismissed it and I said well I kind of did as well um and then and then and then subsequently post um us um separating and the fallout of of all that um I would have liked to have um spoken to her about it um and I and I actually felt the urge many times through through my conversations I have my therapist and and and looking at kind of um two things at once in a sense um one you know a long relationship and that suddenly kind of unraveling and making sense of that is super hard in itself but then you've also got this other thing which is well who am I and what does my future look like and so these two things competing and I think in the conversations I have my therapist and therapists don't tell you what to do not not from my experience anyway but but they they they allow conversation they allow reflection and they and they lead you to a space in which you can then make your own decisions and and and whilst there was there was moments in which I felt the urge to to speak to my ex about this I always came to the conclusion that it what why why why do I need to bring this to that conversation when in fact in her situation she'd gone and fall in love with someone else and was creating a life and a future for herself and so actually my me isolating that and and kind of doing it in my own time in my own way was was was had a greater sense of self-respect and and and so I kind of kept it there.
SPEAKER_10: Now unfortunately um unfortunately without without knowing there there was a there was a message to a guy that appeared on our um family Apple cloud account and so my ex discovered I was dating men through through that and so it was again it was completely taken out of my control what what in hindsight could have been a respectful conversation done at the right time for me um and and and hopefully at the right time for both her and me and with our children's interests you know you know as a priority that just got taken and it was nobody's fault it just it just it got it just got taken.
SPEAKER_10: So but then unfortunately what happened on the back of that it felt to me was um she spiraled into a an entrenched view of you've lived a lie and and I and I feel robbed and it's all your fault.
SPEAKER_10: And it's all my fault and and and and I suppose I suppose what's really tricky in this situation I'm in is is is is affairs in themselves are super complicated and and the effect affairs have on the psychology of those involved and those around those that are involved is is quite complicated quite complex and there is a huge amount of you know shame and grief and everything else that's piled into that.
SPEAKER_10: Now that's that I'm not saying that because I blame those individuals frankly sometimes when you meet someone you fall in love you can't help it.
SPEAKER_10: Now that doesn't conform with our moral code so to speak it in our culture but and so there is I I think undue pressure put on people but human beings are human beings.
SPEAKER_10: And but unfortunately what I've felt though is as a consequence of this happening you know to me some of that you know guilt and shame as a result of that action has been conveniently shifted onto me.
SPEAKER_10: Well almost and and I haven't heard her say this but it almost feels like well I kind of had to go out and fall in love with someone else could you and give me what you're giving me.
SPEAKER_10: Well I look back at it and go well you didn't give me a chance to give you you know we could have a conversation about kind of you know different things and kind of you know whatever but we didn't we didn't get the chance.
SPEAKER_02: Well you've got you've got you've got to remember she's gonna be feeling you know if anybody was looking from this from the outside and didn't know about your side of things they'd automatically blame her because she's you know cheated on you.
SPEAKER_02: The the way in which the moral thing goes is oh the person who's cheated is the bad person.
SPEAKER_10: So she's now got something to say well actually it's not all my fault you know to me that's the reason and from the very beginning you know I I took I took responsibility because I know because I I quickly knew people don't just have affairs like randomly people don't make this you know these are not things that just happen.
SPEAKER_10: They happen through lots of different reasons and to to some extent to a large extent I'm part of that.
SPEAKER_10: So I took responsibility um but again it just I suppose this in itself is an example where I see there being that kind of binary thing the good and the evil and people's need to find a baddie in this and so I feel like I'm still in a situation where you know I I am a baddie because I've I've taken the opportunity to explore myself more and feel more grounded and more feel more comfortable and feel more attuned to my needs and my interests and everything else at the age of 42.
SPEAKER_10: I I I feel quite happy about that.
SPEAKER_10: I feel quite proud about that.
SPEAKER_02: But other people are like bashing over the head saying well how dare you get to this point in life and realize it's now and I just I just you know frankly bisexual bisexuals are always the baddies apparently it seems yeah maybe we're always blamed we're always blamed okay so you're in this situation now um I'm gonna ask you in a moment about how you've gone about meeting people and dating and how that's gone but how do you actually feel at the moment do you feel having gone through all that trauma and that rupture that you keep mentioning which is obviously an awful thing to have have gone through at your at your time of life and and whatever having thought that things were stable and suddenly it all blows up how do you feel now do you feel do you feel free do you feel liberated do you feel happy that you're able to have a new life and explore new things how do you how do you feel personally at the moment how do I feel so um I I liken my experience in the last 18 months as as a form of grief.
SPEAKER_10: And I've lost I lost a parent um in my twenties and um so I can liken it to to that loss but un unlike losing a parent um and losing anyone in in in that way you're you're grieving an individual you're grieving kind of relationship and you're and and you know you're you're very much kind of you're you've lost something that's that that has been and is no longer and I think I think in in my sense it's grief of what could have been and and at the end of a sudden end to a relationship like I felt it was I felt robbed I felt robbed of a future that I thought we both wanted um and I genuinely um wanted to fight for that um not not fight for it um pretending to be straight I wanted to fight for it um alongside getting to know myself better um but like I say I wasn't I wasn't necessarily given the chance to do that with with my ex.
SPEAKER_10: So that then left me with um how do I do that by myself um and there is there is a lingering sense of grief um about um about not necessarily having that family together feel um because because that's genuinely kind of what what I wanted and I feel to a large extent between my ex and I we could have created a life you know for ourselves and for our children that that that could have been brilliant.
SPEAKER_10: What that required was both of us to put in the effort and clearly that wasn't going to happen.
SPEAKER_10: So where do I feel now is is sometimes a sense of that grief but but the analogy I use often with grief is it being like waves and I and I I I like the the beach and I love standing the waves and you know grief early on is when you're standing there and and the waves seem relentless but you also get those really big waves that knock you over unexpectedly whereas as time passes you're certain you stood there and they're fewer and they're more predictable and you can stand for longer.
SPEAKER_10: And that's how I feel now I feel like there are moments where I I kind of look at my family in this different shape and I mourn what could have been and and it pains me.
SPEAKER_10: But then but then what I also have managed to do in the last year is is create more space for myself so that I I am starting to strike a better balance.
SPEAKER_10: And um and it's through listening to to to Blecial Branch it's through educating myself you know becoming more familiar with the wider community broadening my kind of perspective and horizon on things being more open-minded having a growth mindset and everything else that goes with that um I do I do feel in myself um more comfortable and and quite content in myself um um what I'm not yet used to is is dealing with um feeling sometimes um peripheral and I and I think this is this is actually something that's been characteristic of my life generally in that I've feared tribes I I always I'm a I'm a skeptical of big groups tribes and the clickiness of it and I I always like do I want to get in that do I want to and and now I find myself in an environment where there isn't any obvious trial maybe there is a bisexual trial which I'm talking to one member here but but it's it's it's it's I don't think there are really I think thinking about bisexual people everyone's very individual aren't they you know yeah exactly and and and that's it and that is and that's and that's what's lovely about it in the in the sense that we are all individuals and therefore I suppose it's it's it's for me right now is getting a sense of you know who am I in my individual sense but also kind of where does that sit relative to community and it and and and that's what I'm still grappling with.
SPEAKER_10: You know coming out of a hecranormative um community um really lacking in obvious diversity and going into something that is going to be more I think fulfilling for me it's knowing kind of how do I blend these worlds to create something that's sustainable.
SPEAKER_10: But I'm I'm excited by it because I think in some sense I feel like I'm what I'm struggling with to some extent is role models and other examples of people doing this and leading the way and kind of creating this kind of hybrid life or the splendid life or whatever else but but I will find them and I'm determined to do that.
SPEAKER_10: And you know and actually you know being at the age of 42 um hopefully I've got a few years ahead of me and and I am you know to some extent um relishing um the next few months years where I've got a greater sense of autonomy I've got two beautiful children and um to a large extent I just continue to do what I need to do and carve my way through life and when they grow older they can look back and go yeah you did a good job of that um and none of that's changed.
SPEAKER_02: But equally it's daunting isn't it it is daunting at the same time you're you're going back in some respects to the beginning in terms of dating meeting people you know even if even if you weren't necessarily trying to date men which you seem to be probably doing now even if you were literally you were divorced and suddenly trying to date women again and hadn't dated any women for years and years apart from your wife you'd still have it this this would be you know anybody who anybody who's in a situation whereby they suddenly get divorced in the 40s or 50s it's daunting isn't it because it you've got to you're starting it all over again and the world has changed so much you know people don't people tend to not date they don't don't meet over a proud of room anymore and their eyes meet etc you know or or through friends often it's all through dating apps and all these other things it's all it's all very new territory isn't it so I suppose what I'm trying to say is you you say you're excited about that but do you find do you find some of it a bit daunting as well?
SPEAKER_10: Um I I find it quite relentless um more than daunting um I feel like I have way too much on my plate and the dating scene and the whole sense of building community um seems like a lot of effort and so there is a sense I suppose of of of of that um being daunting um but then I but then I think well what would my what would my life be like if I didn't have this happening to me now um you know I I could have been super content could have been super happy in my on my escalator but but but would I want to be there now?
SPEAKER_10: No I I I I am genuinely really proud of being a queer dad and um and a lot and lots of that's unknown but but I think I'm also I think I've also got a positive mindset and I am just really intrigued about kind of what that looks like for me with with the help of others.
SPEAKER_10: And so things like dating um it is a new thing for me going online you know and and and meeting people and never I never did that previously um but but I've always viewed that as a as a means of meeting people possibly to some extent like minded people and as much as it is as it's about meeting them and learning about them you learn so much about yourself.
SPEAKER_10: And and and I know I've had some criticism early on in this saying well you could have waited to be divorced until you started dating on dating apps.
SPEAKER_10: I'm like well I was going to bed by myself knowing that my ex was in bed with her partner down the road like sorry but she started this like a year and a half ago why would I why am I going to do that?
SPEAKER_02: That's you know I'm not gonna I'm not up for that tell us about this about the dating then what's it been like how have you how have you got on what's what's happened?
SPEAKER_10: Yeah you get you get to a point um where single life is thrust upon you that you go is this you know is this my future now do I want this do I want to go to bed by myself every night do I want to have do I want to kind of talk to myself um you know you know there there are things that you that there that come through through relationships and through through experience like that and I and I just felt you know after a while that I just needed to kind of explore and understand what that looked like and I downloaded an app um and did nothing with it for about three months.
SPEAKER_10: I just downloaded it.
SPEAKER_10: That was just the milestone in itself like my goodness what does this look like so I downloaded Breeze it's it's um yeah breeze I I've now I've now got two dating apps um Breeze and Hinge and they're both different types of apps for different reasons but but but Breeze early on was was really good in the sense that there wasn't a lot of chat up front there's no chat in fact up front you just you just you express an interest in in someone based on their profile and they do the same and if you've both done the same you meet in the middle and then you actually physically meet.
SPEAKER_10: So there is no there is no chatting beforehand and and and that was it was really lovely because it just gave me a chance to to meet another human being and I was cautious as to to what extent I disclosed my information kind of early on.
SPEAKER_10: But as it turned out you know my first date with a man um was was a walk and talk date so we we met on on the on the banks of the river and we walked across the River Thames along the South Bank as it were and um and they knew that I had children um so that that didn't take long for him to ask a question as to to them and where they were and and then I led on to they're with their mum and and within about half an hour or an hour um there was there was really a kind of this is my story you know I'm coming out later in life um I've gone through a marriage I'm going through the tail end of it I've got two two kids and I I'm just kind of exploring what this is and and this is and anyway I said to this individual and he was lovely I said to him you know you're my um you're my first date in 20 years and you're my first date with a man ever and for him to hear that like I just got no idea what it was what it felt like for him but he did not run he he he stood there and he was a gentleman and he and he was just really lovely and that that first date lasted for about five hours and um and you say don't do don't do more than an hour and a half on the first date because it ends up becoming um dodgy after that point.
SPEAKER_10: And it's just really good.
SPEAKER_10: But yeah we had and then we and then subsequently we had a few more dates and and I just found like I just found an individual that at that time was was a good listener and and cared for what I had to say and was respectful and open-minded enough and that and that was lovely.
SPEAKER_10: And then and then since then that that didn't go anywhere.
SPEAKER_10: But there have been some dates since and um you know I just I've just found it a really nice way to to meet people and and like I said meet them but also get a better sense in myself you know what what it feels like to be opposite someone you know to what extent is there attraction is there this you know chemistry and connection that sits in that first or second or third date and um and I have been open with with with all my dates you know at the right time in the right way about about my situation and and and to a large extent most people that I've met have been very you know understanding of that and very accommodating and very interested.
SPEAKER_10: There was one date where a guy was I suppose to some extent you know a bit like why did you why didn't you say this in your profile?
SPEAKER_10: I'm like well I'm not going to give my whole story my profile um and I think he was a bit from my perspective at least I think he was a bit intimidated by being in a relationship with a woman for a long period of time and being attracted to women as well and there was a bit have they all been gay men that you've met so far or have you met any bisexual men?
SPEAKER_10: They they I think they all they've all been they all identify as gay but but but but from what I can from what I could observe and I've got to know them and I've still been friends with a couple of them um some of them are gay than others.
SPEAKER_10: None of them identify as bisexual but but then in in in some of the conversations I've had with them in fact that's like that first guy he he described himself as a pansexual um but but but by and large the the um the guys I've met have um identified as gay yeah and then and then and then but then my profile also um includes women on on the dating profile.
SPEAKER_10: So when I first started I I only selected interested in men because because I was thinking well what is this thing about me that I don't know about and so there was a sense of kind of exploration and kind of working out kind of well I'm not very familiar with with men.
SPEAKER_10: So let me just work that out and prioritize that.
SPEAKER_10: And then and then a few months ago I I broadened it out to include women as well.
SPEAKER_10: But I'm still in that I'm still right now in a bit of a situation where I feel in limbo with that because I just don't know to what extent I feel comfortable with having that conversation with a woman about me dating men as well and the whole taboo that sits around bisexuality in men.
SPEAKER_02: There's a taboo on both sides because there are gay men who don't like it either they don't like bisexual men particularly or they're suspicious and you've got a lot of women who are suspicious as well.
SPEAKER_02: There are plenty of people out there by the way who aren't suspicious and they're very comfortable I have a partner who's very comfortable about me being by and many of us you know are by uh are in that situation.
SPEAKER_02: So not everybody is facing that kind of prejudice.
SPEAKER_02: But what about the well once I've noticed with the with the um the apps that you've gone for you've gone for hinge and what was the breeze do you say breeze breeze yeah that they're they're fairly that they're to an extent I think they're geared towards people trying to get to know each other properly.
SPEAKER_02: I notice that you haven't gone down the route of trying trying out grinder is that was that is or have you have you have you put it no I haven't no I haven't I haven't and I don't know I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't necessarily feel tempted but with grinder I like to I just like to get to know people and I just don't have a sudden urge just to jump into bed for someone um and I know I know that's not necessarily what grind's about completely but I I think there's a reputation in which that does it can lead to that and it's not just grinder though it's it's the and you you you've not been in that world over the last 20 years but you know before dating apps came along or before what was it before grind was gay down and all these other things even be even if you went out on a date in the gay seed to a nightclub or a pub or whatever the tendency was always has always been with men that men meet and jump into bed with each other almost immediately basically you know um I mean I remember as a young man living in Manchester I could literally go downstairs go to the spa walk on the street somebody would look at me I'd look at them and we we could be if we if we went down that route we could be in bed with each other in five minutes do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02: This is that's the kind of world the gay world tends to be so it's very so you've been you've done very well in navigating that and stay steering clear of that if that's what you're that that's what you want to do.
SPEAKER_02: But you see but you've never been tempted to do that and have you as well as doing the the apps and things have you have you ventured into the scene have you gone to a pub or club or anything like that?
SPEAKER_10: Yeah yeah I have a bit and I think I think with that like that sex first kind of culture um like I said earlier I think there was a bit of me maybe to demisexual maybe I don't know what it is bisexuality, sexuality I am who I am in that I I've never I've never not even with women had one night stands you know I just haven't necessarily felt that kind of immediate urge to jump into bed with someone.
SPEAKER_10: So that that that isn't me and therefore I don't I haven't felt the change in me to the extent yet at least to to explore that um maybe I should you know frankly maybe speaking openly maybe that is what I need maybe I do need to be more kind of adventurous maybe do need to be kind of a little bit less cautious and just go with the flow um I mean the the other app I have downloaded is Field um and I've looked at that a little bit um and there's also Binder um which is bisexual grinder but I opened it once and I just wasn't don't know something about it just didn't grab my attention so I didn't go back into that one.
SPEAKER_10: But in terms of the scene more broadly yeah I've been I had a one of my dates actually I this guy I met over the over in the autumn last year he took me into solo and went to a few um pubs and bars along Cumberland Street and a few kind of classic places and got to know that a bit bit a bit with him.
SPEAKER_10: But again it's just knowing kind of well what what is the scene and what's my bit of the scene and you know and I've just come off the back of a weekend um cycling with with with a couple of family members and and and we're in a big group in a in a big field camping with with mainly men.
SPEAKER_10: I don't know mainly straight men I don't know but it you know it's it's not it's not a it's not a gay or or bisexual event it's just it's just an event and and I loved it.
SPEAKER_10: And so I suppose again it's just me working out kind of how do I make sense of this these combinations of scenes to find my scene um and you know and and to that and to that I live in a rural part of the country whilst it's close to London um what I'm finding is that a lot of the scenes are just beakers in east London and that's the opposite end to which I live and so yeah I could go in there I could meet people I can I could create community to some extent there but but where I live um it is quite rural it's quite remote it's it's quite middle class and and white and and I've just recently in the last week or so just thought to myself well I could wait for the scene so to speak to come to me or I could create the scene.
SPEAKER_10: So I I have found someone in a local village to me who's um she's gay and I messaged her this morning actually asking is this a crazy idea or can we just create a um you know a queer games night in the local pub that's good and we could and just you know make it make it happen for me at my time in my place and just and you know maybe that's the part of something in a rural bit of England that doesn't exist yet.
SPEAKER_02: Definitely definitely I mean what would be good for you I think I mean I I you know again I don't like we I don't like to give advice but I think it would be good for you to find I think we're all like this who are bisexual we don't we don't necessarily know many other people who are bisexual.
SPEAKER_02: I think it would be really nice for you to meet other bi people somewhere on the lines do you know what I mean it's okay meeting gay men and and and women or whatever but I think somebody who actually understands the whole of you and where you're coming from to an extent not that everyone's the same we're all different but I think to connect with other bi people would be really I think that's probably what you need more than anything actually if you can do you know find people or by um along yeah it's very difficult because there isn't there aren't many organisations out there.
SPEAKER_10: There aren't many no and I and I've heard I've heard I've heard you you and Lewis and others talk about that Sam talk about that in the podcast about kind of you know there being such lack of representation in in in you know in and across our society and the invisibility around bisexuality and I I I have signed up to go to buy pride in in King's place in September which I know I think I heard Lewis say is a bit boring.
SPEAKER_10: But it's very academic academic sorry um I can end it um academic but I mean I'm quite excited about that just just just from being in a room and kind of getting experience of the academic side of it but also the you know the cultural side of it and just being in a room with other you know people that perhaps have to be when you when you go when you go because neither neither I haven't been I think and I think I think he has I think Lewis has been once maybe ages ago but I haven't been and I haven't certainly been in recent years.
SPEAKER_02: When you go please feed back to us what it's like you just tell us what the experience was like yeah let us know.
SPEAKER_02: So in terms of so you've been dating these various people all these men and and you've you still you've still got your hand in on the women and you might you may end up dating women possible possibly at some point.
SPEAKER_02: So you know you you you you're sort of um spreading your wings as it were have you actually have you actually slept with any men yet?
SPEAKER_10: Yeah I mean there's been a bit of you know what I suppose could be termed mucking about with with with men and like um yeah there's but but but you know not but only I suppose only after that point in which I feel a sense of connection so I've I've I've I've had you know a few dates with them and I suppose from their perspective they might be thinking when's it going to lead to you being naked in front of me and you know not that I've ever said that but you know I've just gone at it at the pace in which I feel comfortable and um yeah there there has been you know some exploration with with with men that you know has been pretty novel for me.
SPEAKER_10: I I I when I f when I was first with a guy you know I didn't it's a bit like losing virginity again in a sense.
SPEAKER_10: I didn't feel nervous about it.
SPEAKER_10: You know he he he he just put me at ease.
SPEAKER_10: He was like I say he was such a gentleman he he kind of saw the value in in in the romance to it as much as the physical element to it and and everything combined and that he was just it was really sweet and just and and nice and and yeah I don't feel like I've rushed into anything.
SPEAKER_10: I feel like I've enjoyed it felt natural.
SPEAKER_10: It felt natural yeah I just I just if I was n it felt natural I mean one of one of the one of the dates you know one of the dates was on this this the first day um I was walking on the river and this not on one date's happened on the river but this one another date was up near the river and this this guy took me down this pier and um he he looking at some pause I mean the skyline and then he said can I kiss you?
SPEAKER_10: I don't know if he said can I kiss you just kiss me and and it was lovely.
SPEAKER_10: I mean it was like it felt to me like a bit forward like I know I know I'm giving this impression like I'm real prude like I'm not up for like a kiss on the first date whatever but but again it's just me kind of unraveling kind of a sense of being with someone that's not my ex for such a long period of time.
SPEAKER_10: Um and it just felt lovely.
SPEAKER_10: It felt really natural and I felt nice and it felt nice to kiss him and give me kiss back and yeah I'm I'm sure we've got lots more to come in that front and just yeah.
SPEAKER_02: Is anything his early days I know but is anything surprised you about either dating men or the physical side of getting together a man compared to and obviously you've been in a relationship for such a long time that you know you can't you can not you're not m not masses to compare with but how has anything s sort of shocked you surprised you as you've gone along on what front on any front or just anything that you felt you know I don't know dating a man I mean again it's a long time ago isn't it since you've since you were dating women but I'm just wondering if there's anything anything a bit different a bit sort of you know the men have treated you in a particular way I don't know what you think Yeah um I I think you know there is there is a difference clearly there's a difference in in being on a date with a man and um and being in bed with a man.
SPEAKER_10: You know it's different to being in bed with a woman and so there are some obvious differences in that sense.
SPEAKER_02: What about the protocol kind of things in terms of because people often Lewis often talks about this about about sort of with a woman you you you know the man feels that he has to do certain things and lead the way on certain things or whatever.
SPEAKER_02: You know is it more do you think it's more equal with a man or what do you think?
SPEAKER_10: Yeah I I suppose I'm sure I'm I suppose to some extent to a large extent I'm still figuring that out really I suppose coming out of a marriage where where I was a man and had a woman that you you do rightly or wrongly kind of fall into these shapes of operating and that's not through choice as much as it's just through um bitter nature nurture and societal expectations um and so I'm coming out of that and then in early stages of of a relic of of dating and and and making sense of the person opposite to me and how I can let myself register them I still I'm still trying to work that out I you know I don't I don't it just feels like a learning curve.
SPEAKER_10: I'm still in a learning curve maybe you can talk to me in a year's time and I'll tell you kind of another version of this and where I've landed and kind of where where my rhythm is with life but but right now I I don't feel like I I know for sure that I don't know it all but I also am very comfortable not knowing it all um and and and I'm also dating at a point where I'm 42 and I feel like I've had a life I I I I feel I felt really I felt early on when I started dating men I felt inferior I felt it I felt like oh I'm inexperienced with men what they're gonna think about me I don't know the whole kind of practical physical thing about you know whatever.
SPEAKER_10: And then I thought myself well I am who I am I can I come with my own experience yeah and and I'm very pro proud of that like I am not I am not 16 I am 42 and so if they want to get to know me and I want to get to know them let's just do that.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah no absolutely and in terms of we're nearly done now but in terms of the people you've dated have they been similar age to you a bit younger bit older or mixture of different people?
SPEAKER_10: Mainly a similar age to me um a little bit older sometimes and I have actually recently in my app increased the age slider um to go a bit older into the 50s and I'm not opposed to that.
SPEAKER_10: I mean you know I I don't know I just you know I feel I feel a little bit unsure of um to you know how younger people may be prepared for dating someone like me and um I'm also conscious of to be you know to be fair I need to be kind to myself and not and not get so hung up about kind of where things might lead.
SPEAKER_10: Because at the end of the day I'm just exploring more about myself and when I go on dates um they might go somewhere they might not but frankly it's also just being in the moment and enjoying it.
SPEAKER_10: And it might be one date two dates three dates I might end up getting married to this person.
SPEAKER_10: I've got no idea so so again it's teaching myself not to get so hung up about things like but what if my children met this person what would they think of of him or her like I just need to like just go into flow and be be much more casual about stuff and just see where things take me naturally as opposed to constructing stuff for the rest of my life so so but but my but my point being is that with with with the people I've dated um they've or been on dates with um they've been a typically a similar age um and I'm I'm drawn to individuals that are kind of like a good conversation um kind of on a similar level to me in terms of you know having a growth mindset and and and and recognizing that we're not all fixed we can learn from each other and just experience things together.
SPEAKER_10: There is a thing I think that I'm detecting in in some of the gay community which is very that can be kind of gym based and aesthetics based and chests and and that's not me.
SPEAKER_10: I mean I'm fit I'm lean um I do some exercise but I I don't sculpt my body to be an Adonis so uh I'm I'm not you know I'm not offering that and frankly I'm not looking for that either I'm I'm just I'm just you know just drawn to good conversation good time and a good blend of chemistry and connection.
SPEAKER_02: It's the person that matters yeah yeah yeah person that matters yeah absolutely fantastic okay and but you've not you you've had no you've had no real pangs so far no nobody you sort of you've not fallen in love with anyone yet um no I've not fallen in love with anyone yet um you know I think I think this first this first guy I met he he was my first gay love so to speak my first bisexual slash gay love he was you know it was just he was just really he was really kind and really you know I think there was a lot that I was going through in that point at that point in time where he guided me and it only lasted for a few weeks and we've lost contact since but there's something there I think but that's just I think I'm just I think I'm a little bit romantic to be honest.
SPEAKER_10: I think I can just get a little bit kind of hung up on these moments in time and just you know I do need to recognise kind of the value in which they offer at that point but also how that can sustain.
SPEAKER_10: I I you know and and it's easy you know having gone through what I've gone through just to just miss to say frankly I don't want love I don't want a relationship I don't want to be with somebody again but but I do still feel like I've got love to give and I've got love to give in a different way and I can and I know for sure that I could I could value it differently now um so you know but then I also don't feel compelled to rush either and as much as anything you know I just need to have have a greater sense of self and look after myself and if I do that like I said earlier my kids will benefit from that and if a relationship falls into that as part of it at at some time then that's that's fine.
SPEAKER_02: You're exploring you've been exploring men but you you're keeping the door open for women you're very much you say bisexual so you're not ruling out the prospect of you know if you if you sudden if you do meet another woman who you get on with and everything goes really well then that could happen couldn't it so do you see you do you see I know people hate these terms but do you see yourself in sexuality terms romantically and sexually do you see yourself as 5050 men and women is that how you feel about yourself um I've heard you I've heard you talk about that a bit before and I I I don't really know kind of where I sit in terms of the percentages um I I in some sense yeah I look at it kind of on the on the grand scheme of life and I look at that kind of 42 years and the experiences I've had both in over the long term and in the shorter term and I see a bisexual shape.
SPEAKER_10: And there is a novelty to which I'm exploring being with men right now which is interesting and there's bits I like and bits that I don't like necessarily like but I don't necessarily know where I sit to that but but then what I haven't necessarily experienced is dating women as a bisexual man.
SPEAKER_10: And there is an element right now of nervousness to that like I said earlier I just I just haven't let myself feel comfortable in knowing that there are women out there that are open-minded and and and and and frankly I wouldn't want to be with anyone a man or a woman that didn't didn't have either the ability to to either yeah to ability to understand bisexuality like either you do you know it do you understand this right now or or are you willing to are you willing to learn those two things have to be covered in some respect just being blinked being rigid being firmly in in your opinion of it being ambiguous or complex or complicated or confused that's just not that's not fair on anyone and if if that's your firm view of it then frankly I'm not gonna have a relationship with you um so yeah still lots to explore yeah yeah I mean there's there's there is a there is a guy that I found online called Mitch Brown he's um an Osby football league player he retired a few years ago but he he's in his I think in mid-30s late 30s now and he came out as bisexual last August um and uh he's with a woman um and his um well he was in a marriage sorry to a pro-netball player and they had two children and they separated uh he then came out as bisexual he's in a relationship with a woman and um his partner now is pregnant and he's he's on the airwaves in Australia quite a bit talking about that coming out experience and and I just look at him and go that's good like that's nice like you're acting as a really good role model here breaking a few kind of norms you know challenging the taboo that sits around this but actually living it in such a way where you can be authentic and be proud of it and I just think that's great.
SPEAKER_10: You know we need more people like that.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah no absolutely you said one thing there just now you said there were certain things about dating men that you didn't like what what what's what don't you like about it?
SPEAKER_10: Um well I still I guess I'm still I guess I'm still learning kind of what I like and don't like I suppose I mean I don't know I don't know I think it's work in progress too Ashley to be honest I mean is it is it sexual are there certain things that you don't feel as if you want to go in different direct certain directions um yeah there's there's things that I've never done that I'm not saying I won't ever do but you don't have to the point is you don't say yeah yeah somebody who's bi and somebody who works you know who's got a gay boyfriend um you know that there's a there's a myth that all gay and bi people do certain things well they don't it's up to you what you do at the end of the day you know something yeah exact exactly and I think I think that's that's that that's exactly it it's it's it's it's it's early on kind of um coming coming at that with that with that view on it which is wrong you know it's it's even like you say and and the whole and the whole dating scene and seeing um profiles with men with arrows going up and I had no I had no idea what that meant.
SPEAKER_10: I I was like what is this thing of arrows being up I mean and again that just speaks to a 41 year old at the time just like completely clueless um and then you know obviously no know what that means but you know and then also kind of what that means relative to me and and and also having had experience now of that really mattering to some people and but also for other people in not being such and such an important thing like there is sensuality kind of around sexual encounter and and sex which is which is beautiful in itself and and it's not so um you know such doesn't jump to that people call themselves people also call themselves sides now as well yes yeah yeah yeah sides and vers and tops and bottoms and you know all sorts of things it's like and and again that in itself is a really interesting we'll give you a test on this in a few weeks' time we'll find out exactly what you've learned.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah I've still met I haven't met but I've seen a few slides on the day good stuff.
SPEAKER_02: So final question then um well two questions actually the question we're always asked which is what do you think is the best thing about being bisexual um and the second question is where would you like to be having gone through all this experience in a in a year's time so what's the best thing about being bi do you think uh I think right now for me at my time of life the best thing about being bi is it helps explain a lot in my life um and I didn't know it um but I now feel like I know that better.
SPEAKER_10: So that that feels good.
SPEAKER_10: And I and I feel now having got that piece of the puzzle better understood it does give me a fighting chance to have a more content sense of self and feeling contentment in life generally which you know I wasn't I was it wasn't like I was massively lacking anything before I didn't feel but but clearly I think with this there is hope that I will have a happier life.
SPEAKER_10: I think there's one one bit.
SPEAKER_10: And the other thing I suppose is is I I thrive in what I do for my living and in life generally of challenging the status quo and um I think being bisexual and being in that kind of beautiful ambiguous place whilst it's comfortable for many of those that sit there it is uncomfortable for others and I feel like there is a bit of a mission there just to kind of like counter some of that which is it is frankly ridiculous.
SPEAKER_10: It's ridiculous and but it's ridiculous but it's also harmful at the same time and there is injustice in that and so I've not that I'm going to be jumping onto my pedestal with my mic anytime soon but I do feel like there is something to be said in a space which is really important and you know that's what's compelled me to come to you and have a conversation today because it could have been very easy for me just to sit on the story and not tell anyone but then I feel like there has to be other people out there where this you know resonates to some extent and so yeah I think you know being bisexual also right now in the in in in the in the in the period of time we're in also lends itself to a sense of giving and I want to I want to give a bit back.
SPEAKER_10: And so where do you want to be in a year's time?
SPEAKER_10: In a year's time I want to be in a place where I've done that work to get a better sense of rhythm in life and community um I've got some amazing family and I've got some good friends but I want as much as anything you know more friends that understand this better um and I feel more comfortable in them understanding whatever they need to understand if you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_10: Like you know there's there's a bit of learning to be done there.
SPEAKER_10: So yeah and then you know I suppose the other thing in a year's time is with the children I have at the age they're at is having a clearer sense of of what my future looks like in the shorter term relative to them.
SPEAKER_10: You know what what what will they see in terms of a you know an emerging queer dad and being being proud queer dad and and and then how old are they?
SPEAKER_10: They're they're six and eight.
SPEAKER_10: Okay very young yeah yeah they're young and uh and you know I'm I'm talking to others you know professionals you know in relation to how you know the effect that you know the separation on my my divorce from my ex is is having on them generally but but part of that is also kind of the the the the effect that you know me coming out is going to have on them.
SPEAKER_10: Even though that's not a direct thing in their world right now you know there will be an element you know to some extent I think that it will it will be important and and I like to have that conversation they'll need to you know they'll they'll grow they'll need to kind of adapt and grow into that world and and again from my perspective I feel that's perfectly okay.
SPEAKER_10: Like these young children you know are coming at this with no prejudice with no bias no weight of expectation from society you know it's only really the adults around them that have got the issue.
SPEAKER_10: So in a year's time I hope that I will feel more comfortable and I'll be supported by community around me um to to to build a life for me and my children that that I can see and be clear about and and and and strive for um and I can I I can see that coming.
SPEAKER_10: I I just I can't quite picture it yet but I I know it's there.
SPEAKER_02: Fantastic well it's been lovely to talk to you and hear about your journey and all the best of luck.
SPEAKER_02: Thank you Ash thank you.
SPEAKER_02: And with another bisexual brunch by journey story coming up later as our very own Tom Ward Thomas revisits his journey since embarking on his first ever long-term relationship with a man.
SPEAKER_02: But first we return to our panel and before chatting with Calvin we were talking about people thinking being bisexual is a walk in the park.
SPEAKER_02: Well we've had a stark reminder this week that it really isn't with the issue of conversion therapy rearing its head again here in the UK.
SPEAKER_02: Now we've finally got a clear commitment this last couple of weeks in the King's speech that the government will bring forward a ban on conversion therapy and importantly this isn't a narrow or selective ban it's a ban that covers the entire LGBTQI community sexual orientation gender identity the lot it means protection for everyone who's been targeted by these practices the the law originally was cited as of what he wanted it to come in Theresa Way wanted it to come in back in I think it's 2017 or something.
SPEAKER_04: Now here's why this matters for us as bi people bisexual people are statistically more likely to be offered or subjected to conversion attempts than gay men or lesbians whether group people think they can steer or correct because our sexuality is so often dismissed as confusion or a fate I mean it's being it's being headlined at the moment as something that is focusing mainly on the trans community but actually it is you know and I know a lot of trans people are bi as well so it's it overlaps in a way just reflect on this um Laura it is um you know it is something where bi people are particularly vulnerable aren't they have you have you heard of people or come across people who've actually been targeted by this yeah yeah absolutely so I I think that we have quite a I don't know like I think our our view of conversion therapy I think a lot of people's view of conversion therapy is kind of what's depicted in American movies where like a teenager is sent off to a Christian or like religious conversion camp um and it's all very like you are being sent here to be corrected it's all very kind of overt um but actually what I found through my work is that a lot of people are going to therapists for their mental health or for relationship issues for you know a number of kind of everyday um things that they might be dealing with and then within the context of of those sort of for lack of a better word kind of like average therapy sessions that they're having that is where conversion therapy is actually sort of quite sneaky being stuck in so when I was working for the national LGBT partnership we published a report called Hard Done Bye which was an exploration of like health inequalities and that came out in 2024 and as part of that we heard from so many bi people about their experiences of mental health care and one of the things that crept up over and over and over and over was that they were seeing a therapist they were seeing a counsellor either as part of the NHS or privately and when they brought up their identity there were even if it was just really subtle comments there were these kind of like attempts to steer them either towards a gay identity or a straight identity and I think it's a lot more subtle than most people would imagine.
SPEAKER_02: But is that but is that is that and I agree with you I think you're right I think I think there's definitely a lack of understanding of bisexuality at all and a lot of people again a lot of the people we've spoken to on the show have been to councils and whatever and often a counsellor only knows about the gay side doesn't really understand bisexuality at all but but is that the same as as conversion therapy literally sending somebody to some one of these places where they're literally going to be given some kind of I don't know you know course in order to convert so is that the same thing I think conversion therapy is a spectrum.
SPEAKER_04: So I think that yes we do have those extreme examples of people being sent to a course to either you know they're signing up themselves because they have a lot of kind of self-hatred around their identity or their family members are sending them but then I think sometimes religious isn't it sometimes it's yeah absolutely sometimes religious um but I do think that it's a spectrum and I think that it can seep into kind of these really subtle attempts by people in power by medical professionals to shift or change their identity and I think that needs to be classed.
SPEAKER_04: I don't know what the specifics are going to be around this kind of new ruling but I think that that it needs to cover um attempts from medical or psychiatric professionals who are trying to sway people one way or another in kind of like everyday therapy or health situations.
SPEAKER_04: I think that needs to be called conversion therapy because if you're going to a therapist and talking about your bi identity and they're saying oh well the reason you know the the the crux of all your mental health conditions is because you're bi.
SPEAKER_04: So we need to try and help you realize whether you're straight or gay.
SPEAKER_04: That's absolutely attempts at conversion.
SPEAKER_04: And one of the things that I've done a lot of work on is bisexual people particularly by women who have a diagnosis of BPD because a lot of diagnoses of BPD are being given to women based on the fact that they are bisexual and it's seen as an unstable sexual identity and it kind of plays into that diagnostic crisis.
SPEAKER_04: Borderline personality disorder um so again there was uh another LGBT climate report that I worked on um which came out in 2024 called biome borderline and that's what we were finding we were finding that people were sort of that their bisexuality was being cited part of the reason they were diagnosed with a personality disorder because it's seen as unstable it's seen as like you know not not a fixed identity like being gay or straight is supposedly scary that's scary isn't Scary, yeah, really scary.
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: What about you, Lewis?
SPEAKER_02: Have you come across people who've talked about this?
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what?
SPEAKER_09: Luckily, I mean, not a lot of people that have talked to me about sort of conversion therapy.
SPEAKER_09: There's definitely been a lot of people that have talked about um the therapists that have not been helpful.
SPEAKER_09: Um, and I've always felt, and this is why I sometimes feel at a loss.
SPEAKER_09: Like I know we talked a lot to um in this episode about oh, there's you know, the things are there that should be, blah, blah, blah.
SPEAKER_09: And then we talked a little bit about about the work we do.
SPEAKER_09: But I feel at a loss sometimes when people reach out and they say, you know, could you recommend anyone, you know, is there a service?
SPEAKER_09: And I just think no.
SPEAKER_09: Like I there's no, there's no one I would like, there's not a therapist that I would recommend that I know personally that I that I could put you in touch with.
SPEAKER_09: And I think it's one of those things where it's really hard to know where to sort of signpost people to sometimes, because you do hear these horror stories of whether they're trying to actually do something like conversion therapy, or whether it is just a therapist that's gonna try and lead you towards being gay, because that's their frame of reference, and that'd make a lot more sense to them, and they better know how to treat you or support you with that.
SPEAKER_04: On um, I think it's psychology today.
SPEAKER_04: Um, it's a website where you can look for different therapists like private therapists.
SPEAKER_04: Um, and one of the things that I recently realized is that they can list their specialties and they can list if they have a specialty in LGBT identities, but they can specifically say um bisexual.
SPEAKER_04: So some therapists have bisexual as a specialty.
SPEAKER_04: And I think maybe that could be a good place to start if you're looking for um a therapist or a counsellor who, you know, is is claiming that they are a specialist in bi identities.
SPEAKER_04: Um, hopefully they would have a bit more knowledge than somebody that maybe isn't listing that as a specialty.
SPEAKER_04: And I think a lot of these therapists that are listing bi as a specialty are probably by themselves as well, which is you know, potentially uh something that people would feel a bit more comfortable with.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean if anybody's listening, and I know we have had some people on the show who've talked about their experiences of um counselling not being great, uh, although we haven't people talking about some good counselors as well, to be fair.
SPEAKER_02: Um, but if anybody's got any stories of actually, you know, feeling that they've gone through or been pointed towards conversion therapy, please get in touch because it'd be nice to sort of understand what's really going on there.
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, uh Laura, I think you're right.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, it'd be interesting to know what the detail is, wouldn't it, of what the government's proposing on this, because this has been being talked about for several years now.
SPEAKER_02: I know there's a lot of who are about the trans side of it, um, because of course that's become a big issue in recent times.
SPEAKER_02: But it's important that the buy stuff doesn't get lost in this.
SPEAKER_02: Maybe we should actually write a write a letter to the uh to know you know to uh I don't know who've been involved in this, but as if it's the health secretary, the new health secretary will be focusing on this, I would think.
SPEAKER_02: So it's probably a good one for us to um maybe write a letter from bisexual brunch, but that they're that that it's not just about um the extremes.
SPEAKER_02: You know, there are actually there are subtle things going on where bi people just aren't necessarily represented in um in the conversation.
SPEAKER_02: Maybe we should do that.
SPEAKER_04: Um I thought you were gonna say write a letter to the kid then.
SPEAKER_02: Well we could write a letter to the king, but unfortunately he just he just reads out what the government writes, doesn't he?
SPEAKER_02: So there you go.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, I mean I'll I'll I'll sign a letter.
SPEAKER_02: Good stuff.
SPEAKER_02: Well I think we should.
SPEAKER_02: I think we should.
SPEAKER_02: Great, good stuff.
SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much indeed.
SPEAKER_02: That was really good conversation about conversion therapy.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I can't believe that it's still going on.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, in this day and age, it's just dreadful, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02: Really, really, really bad.
SPEAKER_02: Uh I mean I remember seeing a film way, way back.
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's a gay film called Morris.
SPEAKER_02: There's a bit of bisexuality in it as well, actually.
SPEAKER_02: But um it's set in the Edwardian times, and part of that, um the guy gets sent to a doctor who's gonna convert him.
SPEAKER_02: And and it's not just a case of converting him, you know, mentally, it's converting him physically.
SPEAKER_02: You know, he has to go through various tortures, as it were, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02: Because that's what they used to do going back, you know.
SPEAKER_02: So um, and you know, a hundred and odd years later we're still talking about conversion therapy, which is a bit scary, really.
SPEAKER_02: A little bit of a story in the entertainment news.
SPEAKER_02: Korean McCallan, famous British actor, has um recalled a lunch that he had with um Alec Guinness, famous uh British actor from back in the day, Hollywood actor, that he had in 1989, where Alec Guinness urged him not to speak publicly about gay rights, warning it could damage his career.
SPEAKER_02: The moment has resurfaced because a new play about Alec Guinness hints at his own hidden bisexuality, something kept entirely private during his lifetime.
SPEAKER_02: And Ian McKellen says uh the production captures a truth Guinness himself would never have acknowledged.
SPEAKER_02: And I think there are lots of stories like this over the years, um, particularly around sadly, around bisexual people sort of trying to keep things hidden or trying to get other people to hide things or whatever.
SPEAKER_02: So there's a trajectory over over time historically of these kind of things happening, which is um which is quite sad, but obviously things come out um many, many, many, many years later.
SPEAKER_02: But of course, Laura, there are loads of people who um are talked about as being gay in history, who, when we dig beneath the surface, were actually bisexual, weren't they?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04: I just read um oh, what's it called?
SPEAKER_04: Uneven by Sam Mills, and it's like nine lives that redefined um bisexuality, and the first one focuses on um Oscar Wilde of the Shackle's on Oscar World.
SPEAKER_04: Um and yeah, I think that I I hear that all the time of certain people who are like held up as like gay icons of the past and of history, and actually, if you look into it, then you know there's a lot more evidence that they were bisexual.
SPEAKER_04: But yeah, I know it's really interesting, and I I, you know, to some degree will never know for sure.
SPEAKER_04: And also, particularly with you go far enough back, and there actually wasn't the language for people to refer to themselves as a certain thing, so we kind of had that language gap as well.
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I do think that not kind of glossing over people's different sex attraction when we're talking about kind of historical historical figures is really important.
SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: And um, uneven, the lady who uh wrote that has been on the show.
SPEAKER_02: So Lyson Batman's a great interview with her on the show, and she goes through all those historical figures.
SPEAKER_02: Um fascinating.
SPEAKER_02: And now it's time to ask a bisexual.
SPEAKER_02: So this is um this is an anonymous one.
SPEAKER_02: Um dear bisexual brunch.
SPEAKER_02: I am a married man in my early 40s, uh living in uh Chichester.
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I'm only just starting to understand my sexuality properly.
SPEAKER_02: I've been my wife since we were teenagers.
SPEAKER_02: We've uh got three kids, a big mortgage, busy jobs, the usual.
SPEAKER_02: I've always known I was bi and I'm sexually attracted to my wife.
SPEAKER_02: Uh that part has never been confusing.
SPEAKER_02: What I've never understood is why I only seem to fall in love with men.
SPEAKER_02: I came across the term homoromantic bisexual recently, and it explained a pattern that's been there my whole life: the longing, the emotional intensity, the way I fixated on certain men, including someone who eventually became a best friend.
SPEAKER_02: I just never had the language for it.
SPEAKER_02: And now it's happening again.
SPEAKER_02: I've been close to a man around my own age who I met to a volunteering group.
SPEAKER_02: We're affectionate, hugging, uh, leaning on each other, that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_02: But it's not sexual for me, it's emotional, and that's what's thrown me.
SPEAKER_02: I think I'm falling for him, and it's getting harder to pretend I'm not.
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to hurt my wife or my kids.
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to blow up my family, but I also don't want to spend the rest of my life pretending I don't feel uh what I feel.
SPEAKER_02: So my question is, is it actually possible to be bisexual in two different ways at the same time?
SPEAKER_02: Homo romantic by and heterosexual by, meaning romantically drawn to men, but sexually attracted to women.
SPEAKER_02: Is that genuinely a thing?
SPEAKER_02: Anonymous Chichester in West Sussex, Lewis?
SPEAKER_09: Uh yeah, that's that's that's a thing.
SPEAKER_09: Why can't it be a thing?
SPEAKER_09: Of course it's a thing.
SPEAKER_09: How you balance that with the thief in your life is gonna be the interesting thing.
SPEAKER_09: And that's not to say it it can't work.
SPEAKER_09: I mean, it's quite interesting.
SPEAKER_09: I was a little bit lost.
SPEAKER_09: It's always the thing with these letters, isn't it?
SPEAKER_09: Because it's like, well, hold on, you're saying that you only ever experienced like romantic love for men, but you have a wife.
SPEAKER_09: So I'm assuming he has romantic love for her as a as a female.
SPEAKER_02: I'm understanding this that that he that he he's got into a relationship with uh a woman because he feels as though that's possibly the thing they should do because that's societal's societal push, and that he has sex with his wife, and um they've got kids and all that's really good.
SPEAKER_02: But actually, deep down, the people he really uh falls in love with are men.
SPEAKER_02: That's what he's basically saying.
SPEAKER_02: Uh, do you understand that from what you're what we're saying there, Laura?
SPEAKER_02: Is that what you think from the last thing?
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04: And um, it's interesting that some people, some of the listeners might already know this, but this is called the split attraction model.
SPEAKER_04: So, this idea that when we don't necessarily have to be sexually and romantically attracted to the same people, some people uh sexually and romantically attracted to different genders, some people are um asexual or aromantic, meaning they're not sexually or romantically attracted to um any gender, but it could mean that they have sort of like whatever the other one is, a sexual or romantic attraction to certain people.
SPEAKER_04: And I think it's interesting that when we watch any kind of media, when we watch films, TV, read books, what we see depicted is kind of the opposite of that.
SPEAKER_04: It kind of ignores the idea that there's this different way of doing things.
SPEAKER_04: And anytime we see um, you know, a romance um or a sexual relationship taking place, we see that you know, people are the way it's depicted is that people are always going to be romantically and sexually attracted to the same gender.
SPEAKER_04: And in reality, that is it's different for different people.
SPEAKER_04: So it's possible, again, I I don't want to put words in this person's mouth, but it's possible that you know he or that other people like him have gotten into sexual relationships with somebody, and then because that's you know, society is telling them, Oh, well, if you are really sexually attracted to this person and you're in a long-term relationship, then you must be in love with them as well, because that's what comes with this a long-term sexual relationship.
SPEAKER_02: I I do think it can it it's the same.
SPEAKER_02: I think people are more romantically attracted to to one gender more than the other, or sexually attracted to one gender more than the other, and probably all at the same all at the same time.
SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, I think men, I think there is a closeness between men, uh a mental closeness between men that is just like there is between between women.
SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure you'll have experienced this, Laura, that that there are but there were probably there are probably relationships with your girlfriends over time that you may not have had a sexual relationship with them, but you've had a very close relationship with them.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04: And I think there's like intimacy in lots of different kinds of relationships as well.
SPEAKER_04: I don't think intimacy just has to be a sexual or romantic thing.
SPEAKER_04: You can have a certain intimacy with with friends as well, and you know, with people that you're close to.
SPEAKER_09: This is why people probably hate bisexuals, because we force them to confront messy things in their life that aren't always close.
SPEAKER_09: Because I think there are so many straight men I know, and I'm not saying they don't love their wives, but I think they love their friends more.
SPEAKER_09: Like you're like, you know, if they if they could just live with their friends, they would, but it's just not the way society runs.
SPEAKER_09: You have to live with the woman.
SPEAKER_09: You know, there are people that are like this, but then at the same time, and I will say this that there is also this stigma, I think, around men not showing love to each other and not showing that they actually do love their friends to seen as being quite gay.
SPEAKER_09: So it's it's weird because that all is true at the same time, right?
SPEAKER_09: Because actually they can be there there might be well, maybe you are a little bit gay romantically, but at the same time, why should that be it be a bad thing?
SPEAKER_09: Um, so there's so many levels to this question.
SPEAKER_09: It's quite interesting.
SPEAKER_02: I also think the issue here as well is like we always have as bisexual people, you know, when you're convincing people that bisexuality is a thing, you've got you've got the other issue here now, convincing somebody that you know homo romantic is a is is a is a real relationship.
SPEAKER_02: How on earth can you have a real relationship, Laura, without sex?
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm I'm sorry, but it just doesn't happen, does it?
SPEAKER_02: You've got to have sex, can't be a real relationship without sex, can it?
SPEAKER_04: Lots of people do, lots of people do.
SPEAKER_04: There are asexual people that are you know romantically attracted to people and they have relationships where you know you don't have sex, some people have far lower sex drives.
SPEAKER_04: Um, and some people have open relationships.
SPEAKER_04: So like you can have people who are in a romantic relationship with one person, but actually, because they have a consensual agreement, they will have sexual relationships with other people.
SPEAKER_04: Um, I don't know if that's an option, a viable option for this person.
SPEAKER_04: Obviously, that would need to be discussed with you know any existing partners.
SPEAKER_04: But I do think it's important to kind of to question, you know, yourself as well.
SPEAKER_04: And if you're in this long-term relationship, really questioning, okay, well, have I experienced romantic attraction to my wife?
SPEAKER_04: Um, or is it that I'm experiencing romantic attraction to both men and women?
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I also think the other thing that's really important, um, and obviously this is a really short letter.
SPEAKER_04: I can't at all gather the whole situation from this tiny letter.
SPEAKER_04: But I do think that when we talk about developing intimate relationships with other people outside of our relationships, when it's a sexual, when it's sexual in nature, it's far more clear-cut to sort of determine when something is straying into infidelity or kind of cheating territory.
SPEAKER_04: When it's emotional, I think it can be a lot harder.
SPEAKER_04: And I actually think you need to tread quite carefully in terms of thinking about okay, if my wife knew about this, would she actually be comfortable and happy with the level of intimacy I have with this person?
SPEAKER_04: Because it's not as simple as, oh, well, I have sex with another person, it's that intimate emotional connection.
SPEAKER_04: And you said that you sort of touch and you have that great connection, but actually, if you're being honest with yourself, is that something that you feel is within the realms of acceptability when you're in a monogamous relationship?
SPEAKER_04: Um, and it's really challenging.
SPEAKER_04: And I, you know, I I really feel so as a person because yeah.
SPEAKER_02: You hear from people who are in open relationships who will often talk about um the way they deal with an open relationship, is that they're the sex is a sex, but love is much more important than actually that they they they love their partner who they're gonna stay with all their life, and but then occasionally they just have a bit of fun here and there, open relationships.
SPEAKER_02: So they they deal with it in their mind, and and you know, sometimes one partner deals with it better than the other, uh, but other other times they do manage to deal with that.
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, it's a it's it's it it's a yeah, I can imagine the yeah, the emotional side for me would be the difficult thing, I think, because I can see sex as sex as sex, you know.
SPEAKER_02: If if somebody was getting emotionally attached to somebody else, um and I wasn't part of that anymore, I wasn't, I felt as I felt left out, then that would be the rear the rear the head of the jealousy for me, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02: Um, which I'm gonna do.
SPEAKER_09: Well tell me about this emotional thing.
SPEAKER_09: So I keep hearing more and more people talk about this.
SPEAKER_09: So what like what do you mean that is different for someone having a friend?
SPEAKER_09: Like, say if you've got a friend that you've had for 30 years and you love them.
SPEAKER_09: I've got friends that I've had for years, I love them, and I'm like, oh my god, how are you?
SPEAKER_09: And I've got friends that I probably more connect with because they're the fun friends, or oh, they're the they're the friend that challenges me.
SPEAKER_09: All different versions of there's you know, there's obviously emotion there because you wouldn't have friendships that last this long.
SPEAKER_09: So that's different to what you're describing.
SPEAKER_09: So not having sex with them either.
SPEAKER_04: The way that I typically define like romantic versus sexual attraction is that sexual attraction is it's quite clear-cut that you want to have sex with them or be sexual with them.
SPEAKER_04: But I think that that romantic attraction is kind of all of the other intimate stuff that you that isn't sexual, but that you maybe wouldn't do with a friend.
SPEAKER_04: So that's gonna look different for different people.
SPEAKER_04: But for me personally, that's like kissing, cuddling in bed, going on dates, maybe getting married, like all of that stuff that's like very intimate, and you wouldn't necessarily it kind of goes beyond friendship, but it's not sexual in nature.
SPEAKER_04: I think that's how I define it and can be quite a useful tool.
SPEAKER_04: Do you have that like extra level of intimacy and like touchy feeliness that maybe, and again, everyone's friendships are different, but that that I'd say typically people don't have with their friends.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I agree with Laura on that.
SPEAKER_02: I think I think you're absolutely right.
SPEAKER_02: I think that's that's what it means.
SPEAKER_02: And also, you know, it's also to do with uh I mean, you mentioned friendship generally, but you know, you if you've got if you if you're in a partnership with somebody and you live with them and you have been intimate with them over time, there's gonna be all sorts of things like a sick sense between each other, a closeness that you wouldn't get from just a a one-night stand or a general sexual encounter kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it's just it's a bit it's it's it's a deeper, deeper thing.
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I'm I'm I agree with Laura on this one.
SPEAKER_02: Are we convinced you yet, Louis?
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, no, Laura's explanation was quite.
SPEAKER_09: I mean, the only way uh but Laura was kind of doing it um specifically for her, whereas I would say, but but if you're cuddling in bed and kissing someone, that to me is still of the sexual realm.
SPEAKER_09: So I'm just trying to think of examples where it's like it's somewhere between that physical connection and friendship.
SPEAKER_04: I don't think cuddling in bed and kissing has to be sexual, but it might be for certain people that might be an inherently sexual thing.
SPEAKER_04: But I don't know, I have I have nights where I don't want to have sex with my partner, but I just want to like curl up and and cuddle them and give them a kiss.
SPEAKER_04: Or the way I think about it as well is like I was, you know, I was kissing boys from quite a young age, like before I realised I was bi, and I also wanted to kiss girls.
SPEAKER_04: But when I was younger, like when I was a young teenager, I didn't necessarily want to have sex with people, but I still had crushes on them, I still wanted to kiss them, even if it wasn't in a sexual way.
SPEAKER_04: And I think that that can can continue and carry on into adulthood.
SPEAKER_04: Like I imagine that for people who might be romantically attracted to, for example, one gender but not sexually attracted, it might be that similar thing of like, I want to spend all my time around you, I feel really obsessed with you, I'm thinking about you all the time, I want to like touch you, but it's not necessarily in a sexual way.
SPEAKER_09: So we do we think this guy wants to kiss his friend?
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
SPEAKER_02: Uh I think he probably does, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: But that doesn't necessarily mean it's sexual either, does it?
SPEAKER_02: Could be you can kiss me.
SPEAKER_09: Very interesting.
SPEAKER_09: Well, we wish them well.
SPEAKER_02: That's the final word from Lewis, though.
SPEAKER_02: But no, no, but just going back to the thing I mentioned earlier on was that just the just the fact that we're uh uh throwing up these issues and the fact that most people, a lot of people listening to this now in the general world, if they were listening to this, they'd think to themselves, well, in order to have a relationship, you've got to have sex.
SPEAKER_02: You know, people can't, people people don't get it.
SPEAKER_02: It's like when you talk to people about being bisexual.
SPEAKER_02: The people who don't get that you're bisexual when you say, Oh, I've only had sex with one gender, I've not had sex with another gender.
SPEAKER_02: That as far as they're concerned, you can't can't possibly be bisexual because you've never actually gone through with it, you've never actually had sex.
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02: With somebody else with a different gender.
SPEAKER_02: What I'm trying to say is for this person and other people who are in this kind of situation, convincing themselves and others because of society how society sees things, is very hard, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02: So it's it's adding another pressure on people for being to be themselves, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04: Maybe this is quite controversial.
SPEAKER_04: I think it actually might be.
SPEAKER_04: Um, it's also quite personal, but I'll share.
SPEAKER_04: I feel like there's this idea of like sex is the be all and end all of relationships, and without sex, there can't possibly be a healthy relationship.
SPEAKER_04: And I think that this is particularly prominent when people talk about having like dry spells in relationships where you're not having sex or you're not having a lot of sex, as an idea of like, oh well, if you're not having sex, your relationship must be in the toilet.
SPEAKER_04: Um, but me and my partner have been together 11 years, we've had dry spells where we really haven't been having a lot of sex, and our relationship's been great during that time.
SPEAKER_04: Like if we're splitting it into sexual and romantic, the sexual side might die down a bit, maybe we've been busy or you know, we've been traveling and we're tired.
SPEAKER_04: But actually, the romantic side of it has never faltered.
SPEAKER_04: And I've never felt personally, and again, this is different for everybody, for some people, sex is going to be a real kind of cornerstone of their relationship, but I've never felt personally that my entire relationship is balanced on whether or not we are having sex.
SPEAKER_04: Um, even though I I am a sexual person and I like having sex, sometimes life just happens and you end up not as much.
SPEAKER_04: And that doesn't have to mean that your relationship is failing, because I think having that separation of sexual and romantic has allowed me to realise that okay, um, there's actually something called kind of like sexual currency or romantic currency.
SPEAKER_04: And even if we're not physically having sex, we're still peddling, we're still, you know, you know, peddling up on the sofa and watching telly, we're still holding hands, we're still being really intimate with each other and physically intimate.
SPEAKER_04: And that I think keeps that romance going.
SPEAKER_04: So I do think that you can, certain people, maybe not everybody, but I think certain people can have really care.
SPEAKER_04: Healthy relationships where sex isn't an aspect, either because you know they're asexual, they're uh sexually attracted to a different gender, maybe because they, you know, have young kids and for some reason, you know, they aren't able to have sex because they're busy caring for young children, maybe because they're in a long distance relationship.
SPEAKER_04: There's so many scenarios where I think you can have a really good relationship without sex.
SPEAKER_02: Also, there are there are some people that there are couples that you have who where the one of the couple what one person is very sexual and the other person just isn't sex in the same way, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02: They find a middle way, don't they?
SPEAKER_02: And you know, happy way.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, sometimes people end up cheating on the partners or whatever, some people have open relationships or whatever.
SPEAKER_02: But I suppose what yeah, the upshot of what we're trying to say is there's such a variety, isn't there?
SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, and I think that being sexually compatible is important.
SPEAKER_04: So I think that if you're not having a lot of sex, that's fine in theory, if both of you are okay with it.
SPEAKER_04: If one person isn't okay with it, that's when that becomes an issue.
SPEAKER_04: But I think if everyone's happy with what's going on and everyone's on board, then I think it's fine.
SPEAKER_04: I think we put a lot of emphasis on sex when for many people, um, it's not necessarily in the top five most important things in a relationship.
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: But the final thing with this letter is should he talk to his partner about this other person and those feelings, or do you think it's just gonna cause a nightmare?
SPEAKER_02: I think it might cause a nightmare, too.
SPEAKER_02: I think it better be I think I think it'd better not bother really, to be honest, because they're two separate things in a way, aren't they?
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I mean it would be nice to be honest about it, but what do you think, Laura?
SPEAKER_04: It's so tricky.
SPEAKER_04: I feel like it this feeds into that kind of like potential for emotional cheating.
SPEAKER_04: And it I always feel like something is cheating if you know that your partner wouldn't be happy with it, or if you don't feel like you could be really honest with your partner about it.
SPEAKER_04: I feel like that strays into cheating category, no matter what it is.
SPEAKER_04: Um I think it's it's really just a case of like, is this a relationship that is gonna continue, or is it something that if you feel like you can't have an appropriate relationship with this person, that you could end that relationship, but if it's something that is gonna continue, then I kind of do think it's it is important to raise that if it's gonna be something that is in your life, and also if you're not happy, if you recognize that maybe you don't have that romantic attraction in your relationship and that is a priority for you.
SPEAKER_04: Um if it's not a priority for you, then again that's a different story.
SPEAKER_04: But if it's important to you to have a romantic relationship in your life, then I think it probably, even though it will probably be quite painful, it is important to raise it.
SPEAKER_02: It's how they raise it, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02: Because they could just talk about they've met this person who they get on with and wax lyrical about what a great person they are or whatever, maybe bring them into the into the you know, to the house and talk to them and let the let the wife chat to them and you know people are different ways, aren't there, of because if this is not going to become a sexual thing, um there may be other ways of incorporating it in their in their relationship, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02: And and maybe dealing with his or at least uh acknowledging his with his with his wife is the fact that he has some degree of bisexuality that's there, so it it'll take some you know mastering, but it it possibly is sort of a way forward.
SPEAKER_02: What do you think, Lois?
SPEAKER_09: I hate when we have these questions where I can't be the like the the romantic and be like, go for it.
SPEAKER_09: Um and I I you know I kind of hate where I'm at, but I I have to say you do what you want, but this is not gonna go well.
SPEAKER_09: It's just not gonna go well.
SPEAKER_09: Um firstly, I mean it's one thing to risk you know telling your wife something and her thinking you're cheating if you're actually cheating.
SPEAKER_09: Like this other person doesn't even know.
SPEAKER_09: Like we're not well we're not convinced that they know.
SPEAKER_09: Even if they did, would they be up for yes?
SPEAKER_09: I don't want to have a sexual relationship with you, but I just want to have a romantic one, and maybe we'll have our sexual relationships with other people because we maybe still want to have sex, even though we can't like ourselves.
SPEAKER_09: So is it a very complicated thing where there's multiple people involved?
SPEAKER_09: Like there's gonna be trouble somewhere along there.
SPEAKER_09: I'm not saying you should just so you know, just accept through ahead of your time and die unsatisfied, and maybe in the future people will get it.
SPEAKER_09: Because if it's not for people like you that are early pioneers of concepts like this and trying to make it work, then you won't actually get anywhere.
SPEAKER_09: Um, but it's gonna it's gonna be tricky, it's not gonna be easy.
SPEAKER_09: Um, and you know part of me, and I'm wrestling with this a lot at the moment, not personally, but just in some of the work I'm doing, is are we just sort of expecting too much from life and from ourselves these days and so much ultimate fulfillment?
SPEAKER_09: I was just recording a podcast with someone the other day, and I was like, you know, we put all this pressure on marriage, it used to be just a business deal between um uh a dad and like the man down the street that they were just selling this woman, it wasn't about being happy.
SPEAKER_09: Where and now you've got the Disney lens on it, you've got obviously thank God we've got you know women's rights and everything that's happened, but it's like but now that this institution was never meant to be about two people being happy.
SPEAKER_09: We've got all these levels, and that's why you know there's no one's getting married anymore, and half of the people that do are getting divorced, and like are we just trying to like maybe you're just meant to just be in your relationship with your wife that you don't really love, that you have sex, and you kind of like him over here, but you can never really be like maybe that's just it, maybe we can't have it all.
SPEAKER_09: I don't know.
SPEAKER_09: Maybe life's just messy, messy.
SPEAKER_04: I kind of feel like because I'm a really big advocate for having crushes on people when you're in a relationship.
SPEAKER_04: Like, I think if you're in a long-term relationship, that is healthy and that is okay.
SPEAKER_04: Um but I I kind of think the difference is if you have a crush on somebody and it is causing you to feel that something is lacking in your relationship, because I've had crushes on people, I've been in a relationship for 11 years, I've had crushes on people, but those crushes have never led me to be like, oh, actually, there's something missing in my relationship that I'm seeking elsewhere.
SPEAKER_04: And I wonder if that is the reason because part of you all the things like, yeah, I have a little have a little crush, it's fine, it's fine.
SPEAKER_04: But I'm thinking that specifically in this situation, if the crush that you have on this person is causing you to go, actually, there's been this thing lacking, it's always been lacking, I really don't feel like I have this, and you're seeking it elsewhere, and you don't think you can be happy without it, then I think it is more of an issue.
SPEAKER_04: And that's why I think that in that instance you might need to raise it.
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
SPEAKER_02: Well, please do get in touch with us to let us know how things go if you can.
SPEAKER_07: Ready to ask a question of your own?
SPEAKER_07: Send an email now to info at madeinmanchester.tv.
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SPEAKER_02: And we have another Ask a Bisexual coming up a little bit later on.
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SPEAKER_01: You're listening to the Bisexual Brunch Podcast.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so it's um bisexual brunch and another bisexual journey story.
SPEAKER_02: And uh this time we're actually doing a returner, as it were.
SPEAKER_02: We're going back to a few years ago uh when we first encountered Tom Ward Thomas.
SPEAKER_02: Tom Ward Thomas, as you uh very well aware, I'm sure anybody who listens to the show will know is an actor and a writer, and often joins us to talk about film, TV, books, and anything uh that might be talking about the bee.
SPEAKER_02: Um, but when we first met Tom, um he contacted us to tell us his uh bisexual journey story because uh he'd recently only just um basically I suppose come to terms or realised he was bisexual.
SPEAKER_02: Before we talk about the story as it has become, and we want to talk about, you know, in terms of your journey to now, just remind us, Tom, where you were a few years ago when you first contacted the show.
SPEAKER_02: What what what what well first of all, what what sort of made you contact the show in the first place?
SPEAKER_05: Um well I I listened to bisexual branch.
SPEAKER_05: I started listening to it about four and a half years ago, maybe a bit more than that, because I was I actually just moved into my flat that I was that I live in now, and I had uh had sex with a man for the first time a few months before that, and I was just thinking about like my sexuality and my bisexuality, and I was looking for podcasts that talked about bisexuality while I was painting my bedroom, and I listened to I stumbled across this one, and yeah, I found it really interesting and helpful and useful and relatable and the the many different facets of bisexuality, and eventually, I think after a few months, I thought I contacted you and thought, well, I'd be if if if I I'd be up for giving my bi-journey story, um, and then we went from there.
SPEAKER_05: But I suppose where I was in that point, I I remember I was in um I was in South Africa driving on a bit of a road trip when I listened to that episode, and I think I talked to you about three or four months before, and I would very much have been in the kind of letting loose and enjoying all the things that bisexuality and I think gayness, that the the the the sex with men and entering the world of sex with men uh entailed and massively increasing my sexual number and just having a lot of fun and exploration.
SPEAKER_02: And had you had you any had you ever thought at that point that had you ever even uttered or thought of the word bisexual, that you might be bisexual at that point?
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I had.
SPEAKER_05: I mean, I'd I'd had thoughts about my sexuality when I was a teenager and a child, and I'm I mean I'd sort of had kind of thoughts about like, oh, I I like the idea of intimacy with men, and then I got very scared about it.
SPEAKER_05: And actually, I mean, I I don't know if I talked about it in this first one, but I think it led on to thinking about my sexuality and thoughts about sexuality kind of developed quite an OCD pattern of thinking in my head, and I have been told now that I haven't been officially diagnosed, but I have got an obsessive compulsive issue with my thought patterns, which is no longer about sexuality, but it's it follows about other things, um, about my personality and who I am and everything, and it can be quite difficult.
SPEAKER_05: And it started from sexuality, it started from maybe I'm gay, um, and for some reason it was the worst possible thing in the world to kind of have that realization and it scared me.
SPEAKER_05: And I went round and round in circles for many, many years, and it dominated my thoughts a lot, and the possibility of being bisexual kind of came along, and then usually when I was in a good place in my life, I didn't really think about my sexuality much, but when I wasn't having a great time in my life, if if things weren't going well in work or in other aspects, I started thinking about sexuality and started kind of looking at men and started kind of and I and I explored, I watched a tiny little bit of gay porn.
SPEAKER_05: Um, I think before I fully went and went down the route of kind of looking on Tinder for male experiences, I I had kind of become more regular in watching bisexual porn.
SPEAKER_05: Um, but I wasn't, yeah, I I thought about bisexual for a while, but it was definitely either gay or straight.
SPEAKER_05: And by I wasn't 100% sure if that fit me, but I had relationships with women, I had attractions to women, so I didn't really address it until I kind of got rejected by a girl who I'm very good friends with now, and I she was like not interested, and we were real, we won't we for a while, and then I finally put that to bed going, I don't think that's gonna happen, and then I started questioning my sexuality again, that flared up, and she's bi.
SPEAKER_05: And I think maybe the friendship with her and the fact that she was kind of very openly bisexual made me think it was okay to kind of explore that side of myself and added men on Tinder, messaged men on Tinder two weeks later.
SPEAKER_05: I had a date and I slept with the guy, and then what do you remember about that first encounter?
SPEAKER_05: It was really fun.
SPEAKER_05: It was a Friday night, and it was a it was one of those where I had um a I I'd sort of messaged a few people and he was by, and that was one of the things that kind of in the early days was a little bit of a requirement.
SPEAKER_05: I didn't really want to go out with men who were gay at that stage.
SPEAKER_05: It was kind of bisexual men, and he was by and I said in the message, or by the way, I'm bisexual, and he said, Oh, it sounds like we've got quite a lot in common.
SPEAKER_05: What are you doing tonight?
SPEAKER_05: And I was like, Oh, what?
SPEAKER_05: And I went out that neat that evening, and I didn't think anything was gonna come of it, but I was a bit like this is weird.
SPEAKER_05: I'm going on a date with a guy, and I wasn't particularly attracted to him.
SPEAKER_05: He wasn't my type.
SPEAKER_05: He he and but but we we got on well, and for the first hour, hour and a half, I kind of thought, oh, it was two two men having a pint.
SPEAKER_05: I don't think it's gonna lead anywhere.
SPEAKER_05: But then we got a little bit pissed, and he got a bit kind of flirty, leaning in a bit more, touching my leg with his leg, and then I and then I actually drove the whole thing.
SPEAKER_05: He lived around the corner, so I was like, should we have another do you want another drink?
SPEAKER_05: Should we go in somewhere we can dance?
SPEAKER_05: I was like, or we buy some booze and go back to yours, and that was my suggestion, and then left from there.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, did you I mean you you you've got more experience now.
SPEAKER_02: Did you did you really at that point know what your type was?
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, um no, I probably didn't, but I think my type for men and women is the same.
SPEAKER_05: Um, and I I think the people that I kind of looked at, the people, the actors, the singers who I kind of looked twice at and kind of felt attracted to, who are men, and the people in the street who I'd look attracted to.
SPEAKER_05: Like, he wasn't really one of those.
SPEAKER_05: Um, and I think I knew that he was an attractive guy, but uh, he wasn't kind of in my but I mean I'm like David's redhead, and I've always been a sucker for a redhead.
SPEAKER_05: Um women and men, it seems to be a real pattern.
SPEAKER_05: Like there's this whole thing with David where like everywhere, all my friends go, of course he's ginger, all of his friends go, of course he's older.
SPEAKER_05: He's got a type, I've got a type.
SPEAKER_05: And uh, but yeah, so he he wasn't ginger.
SPEAKER_05: Um but um yeah.
SPEAKER_02: That's where it all sort of started, and then you contacted us, we had a conversation, and I remember the conversation, you were really excited about all that was going on in terms of meeting men and just having a wild time.
SPEAKER_05: And then Yeah, it was about two, three months, and then I kind of I didn't really have any more action after this guy who was called Farr.
SPEAKER_05: And then and then I went down, I got I went on field and I got then Grindr came later and I just became a big slut for a few months and it's quite fun.
SPEAKER_02: Well you well since then you have calmed down.
SPEAKER_02: Well, yes.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: So what so tell us what tell us what changed in that period?
SPEAKER_02: Because obviously you were we were having lots of conversations.
SPEAKER_02: Uh you were bisexual, you talked about being bisexual and I said, but what did the arrival of men in your life and dating men do for you in terms of just the way you saw relationships generally at that point?
SPEAKER_02: We'll go on to getting a proper full-time relationship in a minute.
SPEAKER_05: Um it gave me a renewed confidence, it gave me uh the feeling of being a sexual being, uh uh an attractive, a sexually attractive person.
SPEAKER_05: I think throughout my twenties, I had been I had felt like, oh, I feel like I'm not bad looking, all that, but like people didn't seem women seemed to didn't seem to sort of go for me, didn't seem to sort of fancy me.
SPEAKER_05: I had a few relationships that were meaningful relationships.
SPEAKER_05: They didn't often last that long, but they were meaningful relationships, and then they would kind of not work out.
SPEAKER_05: And I had I had lots of kind of women who I really fancied, and I'd kind of became quite fixated on them.
SPEAKER_05: And they and and and I felt like it's funny in looking back on it that I think a lot of the women who I've had things with.
SPEAKER_05: I mean, my ex-girlfriend Kitty, she um she had a thing for by guys.
SPEAKER_05: She she and I wasn't by then, I wasn't acknowledging my bisexuality, but a lot of the women who did give who who did kind of fancy me or were attracted to me or things did work out kind of liked that more feminine quality in a man.
SPEAKER_05: They were they didn't go for the alpha male, the super, super straight guy.
SPEAKER_05: And I think I I probably didn't give off vibes of being that kind of man.
SPEAKER_05: So I I didn't get I had months I had years actually where I didn't have sex and I was just everybody's friend, and and then I think so when I discovered men, I was having sex all the time and people were attracted to me, and men gave me attention, and I felt like I felt like I was slightly more attractive to gay men than I had been to women, and when I say had been, I was still seeing women at this time as well, like intermittently.
SPEAKER_05: Um but yeah, I think I got a sense of being like a sexual attractive being, and that was a really wonderful thing.
SPEAKER_05: And I was someone who had sex a lot, whereas before I wasn't someone who had sex a lot, and I was the one in my friendship group who didn't, and in all my friendship groups who didn't, and I wasn't in a relationship, but I was having those moments where you have casual sex or you have a friend of mine once said something to me.
SPEAKER_05: She said, like, Oh, I feel like you really need a period of time where you're going to kind of go to bed with someone, have a passionate night, and then maybe never see each other again, or have a whirlwind something here and there, and just have like dalliances and love affairs, and and I did have that when I went out with men, and it wasn't all kind of seedy kind of grinder hookups and gay saunas.
SPEAKER_05: I mean, I did do that, but it w and there were kind of emotional attachments, um, but nothing was like serious, and it was just it was very liberating.
SPEAKER_02: What was your big surprise about the dating in the gay world?
SPEAKER_02: Because a lot of the guys who'll listen to this will probably be men who've largely been in quite a lot of men who've largely been in straight-facing relationships and are at a point where by their thinking about the possibility of trying to date men or whatever it may be, what what was the what was the big shock?
SPEAKER_02: Was there a big shock?
SPEAKER_02: Was there a big surprise you had when it came to dating men?
SPEAKER_02: What in terms of general, just the the kind of the men that I met and Yeah, just generally in terms of just the whole thing of connecting with men and you know how different it was from um I don't mean necessarily dating women, but I suppose from dating women, but I mean I suppose the whole thing of I suppose the I suppose the ease of which having sex is it's much easier, isn't it, to have sex with men than it is women to an extent.
SPEAKER_05: Um interestingly, I don't know that there was anything major that I noticed.
SPEAKER_05: I I think it was the the fact that it was while it was different, completely different in terms of uh anatomically, but also the touch and everything, a lot of elements were really different, but a lot of elements didn't feel a lot of it it did the the act of it just didn't feel that different.
SPEAKER_05: And I think the kind of like you you kind of that there's that sparkle in an evening where you know you're gonna go home together that night and and you know that's on the cards, and you kind of all of those things I think there wasn't there certainly wasn't kind of the nervousness at making a move.
SPEAKER_05: I think kind of it was like maybe because it a lot of the cases it didn't matter so much to me, like whether it whether it ended in sex or not, and maybe a lot of the women kind of like there'd been there'd been more high stakes, I'd like really wanted it to work out, so I'd kind of found it more nerve-wracking.
SPEAKER_05: But I think it was just it was easy and it was not, and there was tenderness, and there was tenderness in sex, and there was cuddling, and it was the cuddling didn't feel different.
SPEAKER_05: And for a while I didn't any immediately um warm to it.
SPEAKER_05: Like I was like, women are better for a long time.
SPEAKER_05: I was I I it was fun with men, but I don't I don't I think I prefer sex with women and it quite a lot for quite a long time it felt like that as well.
SPEAKER_05: Um and I think I was also found myself a little less fussy.
SPEAKER_05: I was in less kind of like I I think I didn't necessarily have to find men that kind of that attractive, like they I've had to be m moderately attracted to them.
SPEAKER_05: But like I'd actually know come say that I didn't feel like that with women when it came to kind of sex and and and dating as well.
SPEAKER_02: The thing about dating men for in terms of like a lot of people do these days, I don't mean going out to a bar and seeing somebody across the room and your eyes meeting whatever in the old-fashioned way, which it would be lovely to do more of that that happens to say most of it's just online kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02: Um you know, the the the tendency isn't uh generally, isn't it, through through things like grinder and tinder and other dating apps, whatever it may be, is that men are probably going to be up for it on the first date, the first time you meet, most of the time, they're gonna be up for sex.
SPEAKER_02: Was that Was that in your mind when you first went along and met guys?
SPEAKER_02: Uh that first guy and after that, did you think actually this is likely to end up in us going to bed?
SPEAKER_05: The first guy, no, I didn't think it was likely.
SPEAKER_05: I didn't know that I would be up for it.
SPEAKER_05: I didn't think I didn't know if he would be up for it.
SPEAKER_05: I didn't think that sex would be on the cards, and then it was.
SPEAKER_05: I think for the first few times it it wasn't it wasn't in my head that it was definitely on the cards.
SPEAKER_05: But I think it was also dependent on the app.
SPEAKER_05: Like I didn't always go to bed with people.
SPEAKER_05: Like I actually went on a date with someone who I kind of ended up making out with quite a lot, and then um we it was a midweek, and he said, Oh, I don't I'm not a normal gay guy, I don't sleep with people on the first date.
SPEAKER_05: That was a gay guy, and and I'd go out with people and it didn't the chemistry wasn't there, so it did actually have often happen where we didn't.
SPEAKER_05: Um, but I don't know, I think it was quite fun.
SPEAKER_05: I think I because I did date women at the same time as then, and I was like, I did notice that, yeah.
SPEAKER_05: With the women, I have no idea.
SPEAKER_05: We probably won't go to bed tonight, but it did start to become an expectation that with men that yeah, we would, especially if it was a weekend.
SPEAKER_02: So you got into that situation whereby you you met these guys, you had lots of fun, you you you went to various places and had more fun, etc.
SPEAKER_02: Um did you I think you alluded to one of them just there that you actually got you hung out with somebody with I mean, largely did most of these men end up just as a bit of fun and that was it, and you never saw them again.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, well, actually, I think that was the sort of transition because David wasn't the first person that was someone meaningful, but there were a few people that there was someone I met in a uh sauna actually, which was bizarre because I went there just for like to explore this kind of slightly hedonistic.
SPEAKER_05: I I mean, people who might not know about saunas in America, they're known as kind of gay bathhouses here, they're gay saunas, and they're saunas and steam rooms, but they're basically a free-for-all, and everyone has sex, or or like yeah, and voyeur is it's kind of quite public.
SPEAKER_05: And I went there on one occasion and I was like just to explore to see what it was like, and yeah, did some stuff, and then I met someone, and I mean we slept together there, and then we ended up sitting in the jacuzzi and then going putting our clothes back on and going for a drink, and then I went back to his and I did get quite attached to him, and we actually saw each other for a few weeks, and then he kind of put his distance up, and that was that.
SPEAKER_05: And I think he was the first one, first man, where it was a little bit more like, oh, I could have seen that becoming something.
SPEAKER_05: I was quite excited by him.
SPEAKER_05: I was quite excited by hanging out with him.
SPEAKER_05: Um, I was physically very attracted to him, and then um after that I did have a few little slightly something that a few things more meaningful, but like there was him, and then there was a guy who I who I met at, he's a mutual friend of mine.
SPEAKER_05: Um, I met at my friend's wedding, um, and I'd met him years and years before.
SPEAKER_05: Uh interestingly, I'd sort of had a brief fling with their other friend, who was a woman back in my straight days, and um, yeah, we kind of hit it off, and he was in an open relationship, in a long, long, long-term open relationship with someone who he lived with, but he didn't have a um he didn't have a sexual relationship with his partner.
SPEAKER_05: And we ended up having a little after party with a few other people after the wedding at my flat, and then me and him hooked up, and we had a what I would call like a situationship that lasted for about eight, nine months.
SPEAKER_05: Um, and it was like an open relationship where we'd have sex, but then kind of he blurred the lines a little bit by like not telling his partner sometimes that he was with me, or we went out for drinks and kissed and didn't always have sex, but he would kind of lie to his partner a little bit, and that was and it was a bit blurry, and I started to think like I wonder if he'll I wonder if I'm the thing that's actually gonna break up his partner, and it was sort of a pattern of thinking that wasn't particularly healthy of that kind of you hope that some you kind of it puts you on a very high pedestal when someone does when someone kind of leaves their partner for you or whatever, and and it went on for a while, and then I closed the door on it because I realized that this wasn't that I was really developing feelings for him, and I wanted him to be my boyfriend.
SPEAKER_05: And um, I was thinking about my sister having been got married a few uh a year or two before, being like, if my other sister got married, which has happened since, I'd like oh my uh my other sister was about to get married actually in a f in a few months while we were still seeing each other.
SPEAKER_05: It's like I would love to have brought him along as my boyfriend, and I was like, that's not gonna happen, and he's never gonna leave his part boyfriend, and there is something meaningful that's going on here, but it's not right, and I closed the door on it, and that I think was the sort of gateway where, in all truth, after that point I didn't really want a girlfriend, and I think I was thinking, like, oh, I'm probably more into the idea of having a boyfriend now, and I saw that as a gay relationship that I could really get on board with, and and yeah, so I think that thing was the more suit most significant.
SPEAKER_02: Did you find with men, and this is from my my past experience of a long time ago now, did you find that with getting to know men that actually you mentioned a guy had put his barrier up and didn't want to talk again and be in touch or whatever?
SPEAKER_02: Did you find with men that there was that sort of, you know, I mean, I always found that when I was dating when I was younger, was that I go and meet somebody on a night in a nightclub or I might go to a sauna or I might go wherever it may be, I was always the kind of person who I wanted to see them again.
SPEAKER_02: I wanted at least to get to know them, potentially maybe date them or whatever, but I always felt as though there was a barrier that there was quite a lot of gay men in particular who felt um a resistance to that, maybe because they've been hurt in the past or whatever.
SPEAKER_02: But a lot of men, you know, for a lot of men it's just it is just sex and they want to move on, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02: Did you experience any of that?
SPEAKER_02: Do you find um you know that occasionally you were maybe um getting a little bit more attached to somebody, but then the block came up?
SPEAKER_05: No, it wasn't I I actually think uh it's funny with that guy um from the sauna uh when he kind of basically sort of semi-ghosted me, or the word would be caspered me, like friendly ghosted, like he just took ages to respond.
SPEAKER_05: Um, and I was just I was starting to get the picture.
SPEAKER_05: Um, I said something, I was complaining about it, and my friend Steph said, Men, you're not used to this because it's men, men do this to us all the time.
SPEAKER_05: And I was like, Oh, this is what women keep on complaining about because I was never that person.
SPEAKER_05: Um, but like, oh, this is what women always complain about, like men being men.
SPEAKER_05: And I was like, Oh, I'm dating men, this is kind of the problem.
SPEAKER_05: Um, but I don't I didn't notice that happen a lot.
SPEAKER_05: That happened with him, and um and it happened sort of subsequently after um the the situationship, and um uh the situationship was a weird one because he was kind of keeping he was obviously in a relationship and he owned a flat and they owned a flat together.
SPEAKER_05: There was a problem with selling as well, and he was it it was it was a I don't know, that was a kind of unique situation.
SPEAKER_05: But I didn't notice, no, and I certainly don't think the bisexual thing put people off.
SPEAKER_05: I think if that's what you were meaning, I think it was more just kind of this guy um from oh I'll call I'll say his name, Jamie.
SPEAKER_05: Um this is the guy Jamie from the sauna, he was um he just kind of put barriers up.
SPEAKER_05: And actually, incidentally, I saw him again um uh well quite a while later, about a year and a half ago, um, just randomly, um, and we had a hookup and um more than a year and a half ago, it was way way before David, and and it was like, oh, he's just not wanting to be in a relationship, and he had lots of issues, and I was like, Oh yeah, maybe we're at that hook after that hookup, like the spell had already, I was like, oh my god, this is you're a completely different person from the person I got felt quite dismissing with three years ago.
SPEAKER_05: Um I I didn't notice a pattern though of of people doing that.
SPEAKER_05: I just think I didn't really get attached to that many people.
SPEAKER_02: I wasn't actually referring to bisexuality, although that could be an issue.
SPEAKER_02: No, no, I mean that my experience is that men were always reluctant to uh to commit to anything.
SPEAKER_02: You know, a lot of men just want us to go out there and have sex, but anyway, don't worry, everyone has different experiences.
SPEAKER_02: So okay, so all that happened, and um and uh you were still, as you say, occasionally dating women.
SPEAKER_02: What what were what were you noticing in terms of because you were uh you'd been your experience of dating women and starting to get a bit more experience of dating men?
SPEAKER_02: Just on the basic level, what what were the differences in terms of you know, the just the way in which you you maybe act act act slightly differently with a woman to a man or was there anything that sort of stood out?
SPEAKER_05: Um interestingly, like there were to be honest, in that period of time, there were only three there were three women um in amongst quite a sea of men who I had relationships, who I had not relationships with dalliances with.
SPEAKER_05: Um all of them were people I knew.
SPEAKER_05: Uh there weren't dates, I did go on dates like from online, but they were all dating situations, and it was a slower process.
SPEAKER_05: One of them was someone I'd known for a long time who was a friend who I'd kissed a few times, uh, but she was involved with someone else.
SPEAKER_05: Um uh and I kissed her a few times, but no, nothing had ever solidified, and we uh had sex.
SPEAKER_05: Um, and but I knew her well, and like she was very flirtatious with me, and um again a bisexual woman, actually.
SPEAKER_05: The other one was actually a quite like I I literally three dates, three times in it was through a kind of mute we got set up basically, and the third time round I said goodbye at her door and walked down the street, and I was like, Oh, come on, Tom, and I then went back and knocked on her door and said, Do you want to have a nightcap?
SPEAKER_05: And then we went inside to hers.
SPEAKER_05: And it was that sort of it was I was so tentative, and that example of this this girl who I kind of walked down the street and then came back, and she was in the middle of messaging her friends going, I don't know what's going on, he won't kiss me.
SPEAKER_05: And that was sort of like how I used to be before, and I was much more tentative.
SPEAKER_05: Whereas I feel like with men, I would just go in for the jugular straight away, and I would have gone in earlier, I wouldn't have waited three days.
SPEAKER_05: I um and and she was giving this this girl, she was giving kind of hints and stuff, but it was I so I think I was m always much more tentative than I was with with women than I was with men.
SPEAKER_05: So um, yeah, it I I I I think there is definitely that thing, and I don't know whether that's just me and my experience and my kind of conviction that oh it's they can't fancy me.
SPEAKER_05: Of course they can't fancy them and I'm much more confident with men.
SPEAKER_05: Um, but that was my personal experience, yes.
SPEAKER_02: So building on that little bit, we will talk about your relationship in a minute, but building on that little bit there when you say you feel as though you might be more confident with men, is there something uh different about just the physicalities of uh a man and a woman?
SPEAKER_02: You know, just just how do you see the differences when it comes to um you know uh emotions and the physicality of having sex with a man or a woman?
SPEAKER_02: You know, what what is there anything that's striking for you once now you've been through all that and you've experienced that uh process, as it were?
SPEAKER_05: I think in the back in the day I remember finding it a lot more kind of uh rough and animalistic with men.
SPEAKER_05: Um and there's obviously I'm quite tall, and I think with women there's usually a physical, there's quite a big physical difference.
SPEAKER_05: Um yeah.
SPEAKER_05: So I think kind of the physical difference in like stature and and strength and everything plays a part in it.
SPEAKER_05: And I've I think maybe with women it's often been a bit more sort of um more tender, but I wouldn't say gentle, but just I think that there's a ph there's a physical, there's a physical there's a physical difference.
SPEAKER_05: I think like the the touch of a woman is different from a touch of a man, but I think now I I think because I'm in a much more sort of I'm in a loving relationship, I think there's a lot of tenderness in that.
SPEAKER_05: But I think kind of on the casual side of things, it was probably I think maybe there was that difference, maybe tender, but I don't think there was a huge apart from an anatomical, obviously, um and the difference.
SPEAKER_02: Do you think do you think men do you think men are more likely to just by instinct know what they're thinking?
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02: When men and men two men together know exactly what they're thinking sexually to an extent, whereas men and women you've got to you know maneuver things a bit differently.
SPEAKER_05: I think this is a hard quite question to answer because I I I haven't had sex with a woman for quite a while now, and I have only been having sex with one man for over a year.
SPEAKER_05: So we are quite instinctual and are kind of we kind of explore things and work things out, and there's a lot more, but we we kind of know each other and we're getting and still getting to know each other more and more and more.
SPEAKER_05: So I think it's hard to remember really.
SPEAKER_05: Like back at the time, I think it was I I I don't really know.
SPEAKER_05: I think I was always quite I think I was always quite confident with women once the once the kind of the line had been crossed.
SPEAKER_05: Um and I think I don't know, I don't really know.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02: Let's talk that's fine.
SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about uh you're now in a relationship with a man.
SPEAKER_02: The first proper default to that long-term relationship you've been in with a man.
SPEAKER_02: Um and how many how many long-term relationships have you had with women in the past, would you say?
SPEAKER_05: Not that many.
SPEAKER_05: Um nothing to this length.
SPEAKER_05: This is the longest relationship I've ever had.
SPEAKER_05: The longest relationship I had was eight months, and that was and and then I and I had like a four-month relationship, but it felt like a year because it went in like within within a few weeks, it was very, very serious.
SPEAKER_05: Um and then a few flings, a few short, a few shorter term, well, probably th three-month-y kind of things that weren't really serious, but a three-month month serious, and then yeah, eight months really.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02: So you got to this point, you found this guy, uh, you love your life, you're doing really it's going really well.
SPEAKER_02: Um you've had a bit of a revolution in your life in a way, haven't you, in terms of yeah, your your sexuality and sex and all the rest of it.
SPEAKER_02: Um tell us what you what you've learned and what it you know, tell us about him and you know what it's done for you, what what how you've changed um you know by going out with this guy.
SPEAKER_05: Um I I it's well, yeah, oh big question.
SPEAKER_05: Um we met uh in the end of January 2024, 2025.
SPEAKER_05: Um and yeah, I was at a point, I think, where and I think so was he.
SPEAKER_05: Like I was at a point where I kind of wanted I wanted to meet someone and have something meaningful, and I'd had something almost but very, very, very much almost that didn't turn into anything, like shortly before that.
SPEAKER_05: And then kind of yeah, we met and we just kind of clicked and like yeah, and I kind of walked away.
SPEAKER_05: And that was actually interestingly a situation where we didn't sleep together for three dates, and I remember thinking, like, oh, that was one of those things where you sort of wait.
SPEAKER_05: But he was like, No, it's because we met on a Wednesday, and then the other time we met on a Sunday, and I was like, and I was like, Oh, okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_05: Um, it was like, Yeah, we would I would have slept together the first date if it had been a Friday or Saturday, or um but um um yeah, um yeah, his name's David.
SPEAKER_05: He's ready.
SPEAKER_02: Of course he he's gay as well, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02: You're by gay man, yeah.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: Um and he And you were open, you were open with him at the start about being bi, weren't you right at the very beginning?
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I did I put it on no, it wasn't on my hinge, but I think I might have mentioned it in a in a message.
SPEAKER_05: I think I might have done, because I think he was very kind of open fine with that.
SPEAKER_05: And he was and I mean he is kind of he's weirdly finds it quite attractive actually that I've had a past with women.
SPEAKER_05: Um he finds it quite yeah, attractive.
SPEAKER_11: You've eupheticised.
SPEAKER_05: Maybe, I don't know.
SPEAKER_05: He's rather like tell me about it.
SPEAKER_05: Um but um yeah, um I don't know, yeah.
SPEAKER_05: He I I I mean I he's his name's David.
SPEAKER_05: I I suppose I don't want to say too much about kind of him and his he's he's he's somewhat of a private person, but he works kind of slightly kind of in in the public remit.
SPEAKER_05: Um so I don't want to sort of who he is and no, you don't have to do that and what he does and no, that's fine, that's fine.
SPEAKER_05: But um he's got a he's got a very attractive job, I would say.
SPEAKER_05: Um and yeah, he he's seven years younger than me.
SPEAKER_05: Currently it reads it as eight because he's 30 and I'm 38, but in a few months' time it'll be back, he'll be 31, and I've just turned 38.
SPEAKER_05: So um we've been together for a year and a bit, and we've got very similar kind of we've got different interests.
SPEAKER_05: Like there's an age difference that you can see kind of different interests.
SPEAKER_05: He's very online, I'm not really.
SPEAKER_05: Um I kind of different, quite different tastes in television and comedy, but similar crossovers.
SPEAKER_05: Um he's quite into he's very into Pokemon, which is which is which is a revelation.
SPEAKER_05: Um, and um yeah, and we but we're also he's very into travel and we went on a big trip to Africa, which is kind of my favourite continent, and I've been there I had been there once before, and I want to go again and again and again and again.
SPEAKER_05: Um so we went to South Africa and Namibia together, which was quite a revelation because also there was that factor in in South Africa, there's a lot of bigotry, and we thought maybe there might be a little bit in Namibia.
SPEAKER_05: It turns out there was none.
SPEAKER_05: Um, so we were thinking, in some places, do we need to kind of put twin rooms rather than double rooms?
SPEAKER_05: It turned out we didn't.
SPEAKER_05: Um, and actually the immigration woman in Namibia loved us as we've got a similar surname.
SPEAKER_05: And um, when she looked at our passports and she was like, Thomas, like, are you married?
SPEAKER_05: And he just said, Yeah.
SPEAKER_05: And she suddenly, she was really austere and really kind of like kind of scary looking.
SPEAKER_05: And then as soon as she realized we were a couple, are you a couple?
SPEAKER_05: Are you married?
SPEAKER_05: Are you on your honeymoon?
SPEAKER_05: She suddenly became really like, oh, how exciting! Like, oh, you've been to Africa before?
SPEAKER_05: How long have you been together?
SPEAKER_05: Um, and that was the beginning of our trip in Namibia and we didn't have anything to worry about.
SPEAKER_05: Um, but I think it's to be honest, it's more um, I've been I spend the year and a half navigating a serious relationship that I want to last and that I'm in love with someone and I want to stay together and I want to make it work.
SPEAKER_05: And I think all of the anxieties that come with that, all of the stresses, um, it feels weird to think of myself as a single person, which was the majority of my life.
SPEAKER_05: And it is with a man, and I think if it I think it that the map the fact that it's a man is both significant but also entirely irrelevant.
SPEAKER_05: It feels just like, oh, I'm in a really meaningful relationship with someone I love and I want to hold on to that.
SPEAKER_05: And holy shit, that's terrifying.
SPEAKER_05: And yeah, that's quite an interesting revelation.
SPEAKER_02: Has it changed do you think it's changed your sexuality?
SPEAKER_02: You know, if if suddenly things um finished with him tomorrow and you were single again, do you think you would be more likely to want to date a man again?
SPEAKER_05: Or in all truth, I think it has I think it has changed my sexuality.
SPEAKER_05: I'm not I'm not 50-50, definitely not.
SPEAKER_05: I've had this conversation with him a few times actually.
SPEAKER_05: Like I think there was a time when I was 80-20 straight um in my 20s, and I definitely always had an attraction for men, but like I squashed it.
SPEAKER_05: Um but I joke I I've fancied women all the time, and then I think there was a period of time where I was 50-50, and it changed by week.
SPEAKER_05: I would see a good-looking woman, and I would like, ooh, she's pretty, and then I'd be kind of noticing women all week, and then I'd notice a good-looking man, and then suddenly I'd be noticing men all week, and it changed weekly and monthly, and it varied.
SPEAKER_05: And I do feel very gay at the moment.
SPEAKER_05: I think, I think um, technically speaking, I am bisexual because I've had relationships with women and loved it and enjoyed it, and I've enjoyed sex with women, and I think there are lots of people, lots of gay men who don't and who find the idea of a woman lugh, and that's definitely not the case for me.
SPEAKER_05: But I think, yeah, I think if Yeah, but you're having a gay purple patch.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05: But if I if I did end up with a woman or if I did have sex with a woman, it would mean at the that if I did end up with a woman, it would mean that me and David wouldn't be would be over.
SPEAKER_05: So that would be really bad.
SPEAKER_05: So I don't really kind of aspire to the idea of sleeping with women.
SPEAKER_05: I don't rule out the idea of one day in the future some kind of threesome activity or some kind I mean, I don't think either of us are kind of made for open relationships.
SPEAKER_05: But you're not sure.
SPEAKER_02: But it doesn't stop you felt.
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't stop you fancying women, does it?
SPEAKER_02: You just because you're not going to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_05: No, no, no, it doesn't stop me fancying women.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
SPEAKER_05: But I I I mean, every now and then I notice a woman, but I do feel like I'm much more orientated towards men, which is which is interesting.
SPEAKER_05: I think I'm I think I'm sad I don't mind if people think I'm gay as well.
SPEAKER_05: I think but like it's funny, my own brother-in-law kind of keeps on referring to me as gay, and like I'm like, okay, it's fine, don't mind.
SPEAKER_05: Um, but I used to be like, no, I'm bi actually, but I d I really genuinely don't care.
SPEAKER_05: I'm happy, but of course people are gonna think that because I'm with a man and I'm I mean at the end of the day, and I I'm similar, I'm similar to you, really.
SPEAKER_02: I I I'm bisexual, I fancy women, but I prefer men.
SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm in a relationship with man, I've been in a relationship with man for 20 odd years.
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so but you can still be bisexual, you can still fancy women or whatever.
SPEAKER_02: Um, but what's interesting about your journey is we we often hear, don't we, constantly about oh, sexuality is fluid, and a lot of people don't really know what that is, but you've demonstrated there over time that sexuality is fluid, really.
SPEAKER_05: It is, yeah.
SPEAKER_05: I mean, there's a whole load of factors that you never know.
SPEAKER_05: Like, I was straight for a long time, but there's obviously the fact that the I've often marveled about how I'm so happy right now.
SPEAKER_05: Um, I'm in a loving relationship with the man, and I'm so happy.
SPEAKER_05: And this life that I live that is making me so happy was something that terrified me and that gave me so much anxiety when I was younger.
SPEAKER_05: And it's I I don't come from a homophobic family.
SPEAKER_05: I think kind of maybe my father's got like slightly tradition, not he's he's maverick in some ways and he's also traditional in other ways, but he hasn't really battered an eyelid about the fact that I'm with a man.
SPEAKER_05: And I don't come from any no friends of mine, kind of like it's weird how much of a terrifying notion the idea of being gay and being in the gay world and being with men terrified me.
SPEAKER_05: And I don't know whether I I mean I but I also genuinely I think if I had not been attracted to women, I think I would have come to terms with it a long time ago.
SPEAKER_05: But I was attracted to women and I was really attracted to women and I loved sex with women.
SPEAKER_05: So I think kind of I settled into that.
SPEAKER_05: And I often think, what if I was born in a different era?
SPEAKER_05: If I was born in if I was if I was a man of the 50s or the 40s or the 30s, would I have been someone who would have been heading into those public loos clandestinely to kind of have a bit of quick hand job or blowjob or something and and cruising and would I have been that person or would I have got married and been happy?
SPEAKER_05: Probably I would have actually got married and been happy.
SPEAKER_05: Something would have niggled me.
SPEAKER_05: I think I would have probably happily lived a life with women if men hadn't been available to me.
SPEAKER_05: But if but so I'm in the lucky kind of side of things because it kind of I could I could fit quite easily into the straight world, but I think I've realized that I'm more comfortable.
SPEAKER_05: I think I'm happier in that kind of gay world, really.
SPEAKER_02: Well, you hinted just there about the the future or whether or not you might be interested in having some kind of threesome in the future.
SPEAKER_02: But the fact that he he sort of uh asked questions and likes the idea, you you who knows what might happen there.
SPEAKER_02: Who knows?
SPEAKER_02: That's part three at some point.
SPEAKER_02: Listen, Tom, it's been fantastic.
SPEAKER_02: I suppose the final question is really obviously, you know, looking back on it, quite a journey for you in the last few years, a lot gone on emotionally, sexually, your identity, everything really.
SPEAKER_02: Um, what's the biggest thing you've learned out of all of that, do you think, about you yourself?
SPEAKER_05: I've I've been quite fascinated by this isn't really about me, but about the notion of how much our sexuality matters and how much being on that spectrum of sexuality, and whether you're gay, whether you're straight, whether you're 50, 50, bye, whether you're 60, 40, whether you're 70, 30, whatever, how much that matters to us all.
SPEAKER_05: Um, I'm kind of wanting to write something about it at some point.
SPEAKER_05: Like, what why do we care so much, and why did I care so much, and why did it take up so much of my time?
SPEAKER_05: I think I've learned about myself that I um I have an obsessive compulsive issue and that kind of sexuality dominated a lot of it, and now sexuality, I'm so comfortable with sexuality, and I'm so comfortable with who I am and who I am sexually.
SPEAKER_05: Um, and if I'm gay, I'm gay, whatever.
SPEAKER_05: I don't really care, and I sometimes think about it.
SPEAKER_05: Other things have come in that have kind of dominated that have taken the place.
SPEAKER_05: So I think I'm curious as to why there's still a lot of bigotry and there's a lot of difficulty, and there's a lot of stuff that kind of and bisexual men, there's there's a huge amount of kind of biphobia and straight women um that happens, and I've been kind of lucky because I haven't really faced that that much in my life and in my circles of people.
SPEAKER_05: But I think it it marvel for me who is from a world where no one really cares, but they do to a certain degree.
SPEAKER_05: I marvel at how much it consumed me and bothered me, and I how how much I fixated on it.
SPEAKER_05: And I think there are lots of people who are in a similar kind of world as me who uh similarly fixate on it.
SPEAKER_05: And I don't, and I and I and I kind of I don't understand why we all let ourselves be so bothered by it.
SPEAKER_05: I can understand those of us, those people who actually come from quite homophobic families who kind of move in kind of worlds, and like I am I'm an actor and a writer, I live in a bubble in a city, kind of if it like where I grew up, even in the countryside, like there are people there who would really struggle and they would have kind of viable reasons as to antagonize over it because people would demonize them still, which is a real shame.
SPEAKER_05: But I think it just matters so little.
SPEAKER_05: I think that's what I've realized.
SPEAKER_05: It matters so little where I sit on the spectrum of sexuality.
SPEAKER_05: Um, and I'm just what matters is that I'm in love with someone, and um that's what I think I've learned.
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: Well, of course, to a lot of people listening to this, it matters a lot to them.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, no, but it matters so much to me.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: It used to matter so much to what would you what would you say?
SPEAKER_02: What would you say to the people who are listening who you know, they hear so many different stories on this show in terms of I mean, literally, it it's one extreme to the other, and somewhere in the middle, and yeah, everyone's got a different version of their sexuality and bisexuality, whatever it may be.
SPEAKER_02: And there will be people listening to this thinking, uh, oh, is this this is this a am I am I gonna end up gay at the end of this or whatever?
SPEAKER_02: You know, what what would you what would you say to people literally who are just uh in this uh field of not really knowing what's happening, even when they get into their uh late 30s, if you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_05: It's funny, uh I've got uh uh two answers to that, but the the the the first one is that interestingly, as you said that, I was thinking of I remember when you spoke to me first on the very first time I came on the podcast and did my journey story, that you said, oh, maybe we'll catch up later down your journey.
SPEAKER_05: And I thought, well, I won't be like, oh, he probably thinks I'll probably be with a man and I'm on a I mean, and you didn't give me any reason to think this.
SPEAKER_05: You're kind of obviously you're the biggest champion of bisexuality and get rid of biurasia, but like I I genuinely thought, like, oh, what if he thinks I'm probably gonna end up with a man?
SPEAKER_05: No, no, no, I'm I'm not on that journey.
SPEAKER_05: I'll probably be with a woman at some point.
SPEAKER_05: I'm just exploring.
SPEAKER_05: So I was at that stage of like, oh my god, the idea of four years later actually in a full-time relationship with a full-time, full, full relationship with a man, um, was kind of like kind of horrendous to me then.
SPEAKER_05: I was like, no, no, no, that won't be me.
SPEAKER_05: Um, I think the alternative it depends on how happy you are in your life and how happy you are in your existence, but I think you can probably think you're kind of okay and content and coastering along.
SPEAKER_05: And what's there to lose?
SPEAKER_05: Um, I think for a long time I was quite lonely and I wasn't having sex and I wasn't in a loving relationship, and it feels it feels strange to now be in a situation where I have my person, and I think that's just so much better than um the not.
SPEAKER_05: And if the reason you're not in that relationship because you don't want to be labelled as gay, then that's a real shame, and you're doing yourself a disservice, and actually you'll just have such more kind of there's so much more that you can experience if you just kind of don't worry too much about that label of what if I'm gay and what if I'm perceived as gay.
SPEAKER_05: Because if you're in a really if you're in love, you're in love.
SPEAKER_05: And it doesn't and and I'd say kind of, but you've also got to throw yourself into that full throttle.
SPEAKER_05: You can't be like, oh, I'll try a gay relationship.
SPEAKER_05: Because you've got to try every every kind of, I mean, I would say kind of for me, going into a relationship is you go into it for forever.
SPEAKER_05: A lot of the times things don't work out, but you go into it full throttle and you think, no, this I'm looking for love, and um whoever that is is kind of who I'm gonna be with, and try and make that the label of what that makes you gay or straight.
SPEAKER_05: Well, it's either gay and in love or straight and lonely if you are in the same position as I was, where I wasn't really having much fun, really.
SPEAKER_05: Um, but also you might be someone who has who has a very happy relationship with a woman, and you just kind of want to come to terms with that and different situations.
SPEAKER_05: But I'd say kind of if you're in my shoes, better to be happy and don't care about the label than lonely but scared of the label.
SPEAKER_05: You might not be lonely, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02: I get that, I get that.
SPEAKER_02: Fantastic, Tom.
SPEAKER_02: Lovely to talk to you and talk about your story as it continues.
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure we'll catch up again at some point on that uh that journey uh and find out what happens next.
SPEAKER_02: The sequel, the third part.
SPEAKER_02: Um, but of course, we'll uh speak to you again soon, I'm sure, about all things TV, film, and um literature and all the rest of it.
SPEAKER_02: So uh, but for now, thanks for talking to us, Tom.
SPEAKER_02: All right, thank you.
SPEAKER_02: And still to come on Bisexual Brunch with the very first instalment of Beat the Bisexual, our brand new game show.
SPEAKER_02: That's coming up very shortly.
SPEAKER_07: And now it's time to ask a bisexual.
SPEAKER_02: So I'm Claire, I'm 35 from Bath, and I'm bisexual.
SPEAKER_02: I've been with my boyfriend for nearly five years.
SPEAKER_02: We're good together, and we've always been open about my bisexuality.
SPEAKER_02: We've experimented with women a few times and he's genuinely enjoyed it, sometimes watching, sometimes joining in when she's also bi.
SPEAKER_02: It's also felt natural and respectful.
SPEAKER_02: I've realized I'm also turned on by the idea of two men together and the thought of him exploring that side of himself if he ever wanted to.
SPEAKER_02: Really, it really does something for me.
SPEAKER_02: And that's where things get complicated because I've quietly wondered for a long time whether he might be bi too.
SPEAKER_02: Not because he's ever said it, but because of the way he reacts to certain men or how flustered he gets when anything queer comes up.
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't feel like discomfort with with me being bi, it feels like discomfort with himself.
SPEAKER_02: And then there's the jealousy question.
SPEAKER_02: It's never been an issue with women, but I do worry he might feel differently if another man were involved.
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to open a door that ends up hurting either of us.
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to project my own sexuality onto him or push him into a label he hasn't chosen, but I also don't want to ignore something that feels increasingly present between us.
SPEAKER_02: So my question is um, how do I gently find out whether my boyfriend might be by?
SPEAKER_02: And if he is, how do I support him without making him feel cornered, exposed, or jealous?
SPEAKER_02: Claire in Bath.
SPEAKER_02: Now we've had a few like this actually over the last uh year or two.
SPEAKER_02: Um it seems that um people are starting to explore each other's potential bisexuality um on these issues.
SPEAKER_02: What do you think to that then, Lewis?
SPEAKER_09: This is all just a bit she's overthinking this.
SPEAKER_09: Like you're bisexual, so he's clearly okay with bisexuality.
SPEAKER_09: You have had threesons with other women, so he's clearly okay with that.
SPEAKER_09: I think I think there is more than enough thing like for you to be able to say to him by the way, if you ever wanted to have two guys, like I'm totally cool with that.
SPEAKER_09: Like, that is all that needs to be said.
SPEAKER_09: Like, you don't need to sit down and be like, I've been looking at this, and I think this is about you, and I just wait to know what I'll be.
SPEAKER_09: I think you could literally just say, if you ever wanted to experiment with like we have two guys here instead of two girls, like I'm I'm down to that.
SPEAKER_09: That would be enough of opening the door where you could then like see what happens.
SPEAKER_09: I don't know.
SPEAKER_09: I kind of get from this message, and maybe it's the way you read it, that she's not got clean hands in it, has she?
SPEAKER_09: Because she kind of would quite like two guys together.
SPEAKER_09: And it's kind of like when the when the shoe is on the other foot, when it's the straight guy that really likes his five girlfriends' bisexuality because now he gets her two girls, and it's then and it's like, well, you're not that's you're not supporting her for you for her then.
SPEAKER_09: Are you supporting her because you want to have a threesome?
SPEAKER_09: And so there are edging of this in that too.
SPEAKER_09: It can happen from both sides.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it can.
SPEAKER_02: Maybe she's a big fan of heated rivalry, Laura.
SPEAKER_02: What do you think?
SPEAKER_04: Maybe.
SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, I feel like, yeah, the thing about overthinking it possibly, and I I kind of like the idea of just throwing something out as like if you're ever wanted to do this, then that's fine.
SPEAKER_04: I really like it's kind of like any introduction of something in the bedroom that you're kind of like not sure that you or your partner's gonna like, obviously with consent, but if you're not sure if something is gonna be for you, then introducing it when it's just the two of you in the bedroom, maybe watching some porn of it together and seeing if that works for you, maybe kind of like exploring it, like fantasizing about it together, bit of dirty talk, you know, role play.
SPEAKER_04: Um, and that way you're just completely in control.
SPEAKER_04: So maybe that's something you can write of like, oh, we don't have to jump in to this with two feet, but would you want to kind of like sit your turn in and just like explore this just the two of us and see if it's something that is exciting for you?
SPEAKER_04: Um but yeah, obviously everything has to be synthetical and everything has to be something that he would be comfortable with, um, especially because you know, you sort of said that it's something that you are interested in, but you're not quite sure if he is.
SPEAKER_04: So I think you can kind of handle it um, you know, as as kind of like broaching like a new fun thing to do together, but also wealth being like, but no pressure on my side if it's not kind of your deal.
SPEAKER_02: And and if and if you're not yet seen Heated Rivalry, maybe start looking at that because that'll be an easy one.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I watched that together.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely, definitely.
SPEAKER_02: What happened there, Lori?
SPEAKER_02: You managed to you when we last spoke, you would watch part of it, Heat and Rivalry, and you were watching it occasionally with your partner, and and he was giving sort of reactions to it at the time.
SPEAKER_02: What what what was his conclusion in the end?
SPEAKER_04: Did you weren't we weren't watching it together?
SPEAKER_04: I I I finished it, I really liked it.
SPEAKER_04: I was, yeah, I feel like it was really fun, and I am a sucker for a good love story.
SPEAKER_04: So I was really enjoying it.
SPEAKER_04: Um I can't remember, I think I might show my partner like one or two bits, but we weren't watching it together.
SPEAKER_04: Um because yeah, it's not really his.
SPEAKER_04: He's not a he's less of a romantic person, and he's also doesn't really do um TV shows to be fair, but he's less of a sucker for romance than I am when it comes to like TV and film.
SPEAKER_02: Um he wasn't shocked by it.
SPEAKER_02: She wasn't shocked at it.
SPEAKER_04: Oh god.
SPEAKER_04: He lives with I'm a professional sex educator, there's not much that shocks him.
SPEAKER_02: Is that the same with you, Lewis?
SPEAKER_02: Your partner's never shocked at you, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_02: Shocks at me.
SPEAKER_04: I feel like his rivalry is quite tame compared to other things that I've read or watched at home.
SPEAKER_04: So my partner certainly wasn't wasn't shocked by it, but was also like, I'll let you enjoy this by yourself.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so finally with for this one then, this this uh ask a bisexual.
SPEAKER_02: My feeling is exactly the same as both of you, really.
SPEAKER_02: I think you know, broach the subject.
SPEAKER_02: Um, as Lewis says, it's an open door, really, because you know, she's you know, there is a he's he's already interested in threesomes and things, then you know, see how it goes.
SPEAKER_02: I I don't see this big issue, really.
SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, go for it and let us know how you get on.
SPEAKER_07: Ready to ask a question of your own?
SPEAKER_07: Send an email now to info at maidenmanchester.tv.
SPEAKER_07: And in the subject lines say for the attention of bisexual brunch.
SPEAKER_07: And you might get featured on a future show.
SPEAKER_07: Don't be shy, they won't bite.
SPEAKER_06: Now on bisexual brunch, it's time to play Beat the Bisexual.
SPEAKER_02: So I've been meaning to do this for a while now, introduced some extra fun into uh bisexual brunch with a game show, a quiz show.
SPEAKER_02: Um we're trialing this out.
SPEAKER_02: It's beat the bisexual.
SPEAKER_02: So it's Lewis against Laura this time.
SPEAKER_02: They were given no warning of this.
SPEAKER_02: Lots of groans are plenty about this one.
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but we're starting off with just one round.
SPEAKER_02: There'll be more rounds in future episodes, and you'll also get the chance if you want to come on the show and play Beat the Bisexual.
SPEAKER_02: But first of all, we're going to start off with a relatively tame, hopefully, fairly easy round for Lewis and Laura.
SPEAKER_02: It's called real term or fake term.
SPEAKER_02: And it goes like this.
SPEAKER_02: Compulsory monosexuality.
SPEAKER_02: Is that a real term or a fake term?
SPEAKER_04: Real term.
SPEAKER_02: What do you think, Lewis?
SPEAKER_09: Compulsory monosexuality.
SPEAKER_09: Well, monosexuality is definitely real.
SPEAKER_09: Compulsory Whatever, I'll go I'll go in with Laura that that's real.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's real.
SPEAKER_02: A concept describing how society assumes people are either straight or gay, uh, but never by.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so you both got uh a point each there.
SPEAKER_02: By sensuality.
SPEAKER_02: By sensuality, is that real term or a fake term?
SPEAKER_04: If it's not a real term, it should be.
SPEAKER_04: I quite like it.
SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna go with not a real term, I've not heard about.
SPEAKER_09: I wouldn't know what it would be describing.
SPEAKER_04: So it looks like I I feel like it might be like bicurious or like heteroflexible, like one of those terms.
SPEAKER_02: It's fake.
SPEAKER_02: You're right, Laura, it's fake.
SPEAKER_02: Um so it is fake and it sounds plausible, you're right, but there's no such recognized term at all.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, the next one.
SPEAKER_02: Well, this you should get this one.
SPEAKER_02: We've been talking about it all night.
SPEAKER_02: Biromantic, real or fake.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's real.
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, it is, and that's uh romantic attraction to more than one gender, as we've discussed many times this evening.
SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, the next one is spectrosexual.
SPEAKER_02: Spectra sexual, real or fake.
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna go fake.
SPEAKER_04: I've not heard I'm gonna go fake as well.
SPEAKER_02: You're both wrong, it's real.
SPEAKER_02: A niche but genuine term meaning attraction across a broad gender spectrum, apparently.
SPEAKER_04: Oh, niche is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
SPEAKER_02: The next one is monoflexible.
SPEAKER_02: Mono flexible.
SPEAKER_02: Is that real or fake?
SPEAKER_04: I think I've heard this one.
SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna say real.
SPEAKER_09: What do you think?
SPEAKER_09: Why would it not be real?
SPEAKER_02: It's fake.
SPEAKER_02: Total nonsense.
SPEAKER_02: But I knew you'd want to believe it, but it's total nonsense, Al.
SPEAKER_02: Um it does, it sounds real, but it's not.
SPEAKER_02: The next one is petroflexible.
SPEAKER_04: That's real.
SPEAKER_02: That's definitely real.
SPEAKER_04: I think that's probably what I was thinking of.
SPEAKER_02: Mostly straight, but occasionally attracted to other genders is the um is the is is the um definition, apparently.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, next one.
SPEAKER_02: Ambisexual drift.
SPEAKER_04: Ambisexual.
SPEAKER_04: This feels so specific that I'm gonna go real.
SPEAKER_09: I'm gonna go real too.
SPEAKER_09: I think I think it sounds too specific to be fake.
SPEAKER_02: It is actually fake.
SPEAKER_02: It sounds like a 1970s psychology paper, but no, it's just it's definitely fake.
SPEAKER_02: It's definitely fake.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, on to the next one then.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, that's real.
SPEAKER_02: I've heard of that.
SPEAKER_02: What do you reckon, Laura?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's real.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_02: Romantic attraction to people regardless of gender.
SPEAKER_04: I hope it's real.
SPEAKER_04: I wrote about it in my book.
SPEAKER_02: There you go, there you go.
SPEAKER_02: Uh bicycle theory.
SPEAKER_02: Bicycle theory, is that real or fake?
SPEAKER_04: I've not heard of it.
SPEAKER_09: I've not heard of it either.
SPEAKER_09: The bicycle theory.
SPEAKER_09: But is it hydrelated?
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
SPEAKER_09: I'm gonna go real because I feel like someone would have done a by Python cycle.
SPEAKER_04: I'll go fake then just to jar things up a bit.
SPEAKER_02: Laura's right, it is fake.
SPEAKER_02: Um but you can absolutely make a joke about two wheels good, monosexuality bad kind of thing, couldn't you?
SPEAKER_02: Okay, good stuff.
SPEAKER_02: Um and the last one on this one is monosexism.
SPEAKER_02: Monosexism, is that real or fake?
SPEAKER_04: That's real.
SPEAKER_09: Let me just figure my car.
SPEAKER_09: I was gonna say fake.
SPEAKER_09: You say fake, yeah?
SPEAKER_09: Monosexism.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, it's real.
SPEAKER_02: And um it's discrimination favouring attraction to only one gender.
SPEAKER_02: Never heard of that.
SPEAKER_04: I I did an article about it a while ago for beeva.
SPEAKER_04: So again, I feel like I had a little insight.
SPEAKER_02: Well, doing your homework has certainly paid off, Laura.
SPEAKER_02: Laura Clark with seven points to Lewis Oakley's four, you are the winner of the first ever Beat the Bisexual.
SPEAKER_06: Join us again soon for Beat the Bisexual.
SPEAKER_06: And if you'd like to take on the team with the chance to win a bisexual brunch mug, drop us an email now.
SPEAKER_06: Info at maidenmanchester.tv.
SPEAKER_02: And just to clarify, with regards to the subject of the first Beat the Bisexual, the real bisexuality terms recognised in academic theory include compulsory monosexuality, monosexism, biromantic, panromantic, heteroflexible, and spectrosexual.
SPEAKER_02: The others, like bisexuality, monoflexible, and ambisexual drift, are internet inventions rather than established terms.
SPEAKER_02: But of course, the quiz is just a bit of fun.
SPEAKER_02: Language evolves, communities evolve, and who knows, some of the so-called fake terms we threw in today might end up becoming real labels one day.
SPEAKER_02: That's how queer language works.
SPEAKER_02: People invent things, communities adopt them, and suddenly they're part of the vocabulary.
SPEAKER_02: If you have anything interesting to say about any of this, go on.
SPEAKER_02: Challenge us.
SPEAKER_02: As we say, language is evolving all the time.
SPEAKER_02: We'd love to hear from you.
SPEAKER_02: Message us via email at info at maidymanister.tv.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, well that's bisexual brunch for this week.
SPEAKER_08: If you've got any comments, thoughts, musings, do get in touch with us at bisexual brunch on Twitter.
SPEAKER_08: Bye for now.
SPEAKER_02: Laura, so what what's what's happening in your uh your world at the moment around um sort of the whole issue of um sex and relationships and all the kind of things that you've been doing with your book and everything.
SPEAKER_02: How's it all going at the moment?
SPEAKER_04: Going well.
SPEAKER_04: I'm I'm really booked actually, which is really nice.
SPEAKER_04: For June, I've got a lot going on.
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I feel like last summer was actually quite quiet for me.
SPEAKER_04: So it's nice to have a lot of different things on.
SPEAKER_04: I'm doing a lot of different like LGBT awareness trainings, and then in July I'm gonna be at the World Bisexual Conference in Amsterdam, which I'm very, very much looking forward to.
SPEAKER_04: Um I absolutely love Amsterdam, it's one of my favourite cities in the world, and I can't wait to go and just yeah, like buy stuff, Amsterdam stuff.
SPEAKER_04: All sounds really good.
SPEAKER_02: Tell us a bit about that.
SPEAKER_02: So it's the World Bisexual Conference in Amsterdam.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I've not I've not been before, but it's a huge conference, lots of different talks and panels and um events all on bisexuality.
SPEAKER_04: It's a three-day conference, and yeah, I'm gonna be in Amsterdam for five days.
SPEAKER_02: I feel as though I feel as though we should we should also be there, Lewis.
SPEAKER_02: We should also be there.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they still have they have tickets available, so it's only it's uh it's only over the water, it's not far away, is it?
SPEAKER_04: I know, yeah.
SPEAKER_04: I'm getting the Eurostar because I'm terrified of flying.
SPEAKER_04: I do fly, but I don't fly by myself.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, nor me.
SPEAKER_02: I don't like flying either.
SPEAKER_02: I'd be going by Eurostar, but it's very intriguing and uh we really ought to be there.
SPEAKER_02: Um let's look into it.
SPEAKER_02: What's this space?
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