WEBVTT 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:05.599 It's Bisexual Brunch with Lewis Oakley, Ashley Byrne and Laurie Beth Bisbee. 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:13.359 If nobody was told what you were meant to do, if there weren't any rules, then we would be living in a totally different format. 00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:23.679 We as journalists and activists have always found it very difficult to find people who will openly talk about being bisexual. 00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:27.120 Just don't think there are enough biperspectives on bisexuals. 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.480 I feel like we've got to talk about it because we're really comfortable doing that. 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:32.159 It can be really intimidating. 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:35.840 Bisexuality is not really understood because people have bisected tendencies. 00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:39.600 And the second you mention bisexual, just their ears pick up. 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:42.240 Oh well, you you're still confused, right? 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:44.000 No, I'm not confused. 00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:47.600 I've always found myself at the mercy of gay and straight advice. 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:50.799 Can have a bit of competition to see who's the better bisexual bruncher. 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:53.359 This is bisexual brunch. 00:00:55.359 --> 00:01:01.920 So another bisexual brunch, and uh we welcome a special guest panelist this time. 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:08.239 Um, we're the podcast where we talk real life, real stories, and real bisexuality without the nonsense. 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:10.319 And today we've got a proper treat. 00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:23.920 Joining us as our guest panelist is someone you'll know from Channel 4's The Great Sex Experiment, and probably from other things as well, a psychologist, educator, and all-round straight talker when it comes to relationships, intimacy, and communication. 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:25.120 We're welcoming Dr. 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:26.719 Lori Beth Bisbee. 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:28.719 Laurie, thank you very much for joining us. 00:01:28.879 --> 00:01:35.439 I know that you came on as a guest a few episodes ago, um, sometime probably towards end of last year, I think it was. 00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:38.239 But it's great to have you on as a uh as a panelist. 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:45.200 Last time I touched base with you around that time, you'd had an operation or something and you were a bit immobile, but I gather you're fully recovered now. 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:49.040 Not quite fully, but enough to be getting around and out and about, and it's wonderful. 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:49.840 Fantastic. 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:50.640 That's good stuff. 00:01:50.799 --> 00:01:53.840 Well, uh, we're joined by Lewis, of course, as uh as ever. 00:01:54.000 --> 00:02:05.599 Um uh my my my partner in crime for the last six or seven years on bisexual brunch, and we come with some great news actually, a couple of bits of good news to be honest, since we uh last an episode. 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:21.199 I think um I don't think we've told everybody this, but um we basically became top number one out of um a top 100 LGBT uh podcasts globally, uh, which was done by Feed Spot. 00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:29.919 Um that was just ahead of the Pride season, I think they launched that uh to say that we were number one in the world, uh, which is absolutely fantastic news. 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:52.560 Um, and then in the meantime, we've also been um long listed, which sounds a bit weird to me because um this organization, which is basically the British Podcast Awards, um, has a long list uh for their sexual sexuality and relationships category, uh, the British Podcast Awards this year is a long list and then a short list. 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:57.199 And we've been long listed, um, and some of the long lists are huge. 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:05.840 Some of the long lists are like 20, 25, uh 25 um um you know contestants or or or or uh nominations or whatever. 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:08.800 Um ours is a long list of five. 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:09.759 Oh wow. 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:13.840 So I can't imagine the short list is going to be much shorter than that. 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:18.319 So fingers crossed with a reasonable chance to be on a short list. 00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:29.599 What what's interesting though is, and Lewis will vouch this, I'm sure, because I'm sure you've you've looked through the the other long lists, uh Lewis, that some of the some of the long other long lists for us, some of the other categories are huge. 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:33.280 Some of the categories you would never expect, they're like 15, 20 different. 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:35.919 So we're on a very much shorter long list. 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:38.159 Um, but how does it feel, um, Lewis? 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:39.919 How do you feel to be on the long list? 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:41.120 Amazing. 00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:50.159 I mean, first of all, just personally, I love an award and I can't wait to be on that stage and grab that award from those other bitches and say we had the best podcast. 00:03:50.639 --> 00:04:05.840 Um, but on a serious note, and I don't know how much we've talked about this publicly, but this podcast came about because in like 2019, like pre-pandemic times, we did a documentary for the BBC on bisexuality. 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:09.280 We then shocked around the idea of bisexual branches of podcast. 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:11.599 No one wanted it, no one was interested. 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:13.280 Bisexuality, that's been done. 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:14.800 Who would listen to that? 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:17.519 No, no point, get out of here. 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:23.519 Um, and Ash made the decision that we would self-fundless and that we would just go for it and do it. 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:26.800 And now we're number one in the charts, bitches, and we're gonna win an award. 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.399 So that just proves that there is a bisexual audience out there. 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:32.720 There are people that want to listen to this content. 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:37.120 There are people, even though I said Ash was mad, no one's ever gonna listen to a three-hour episode. 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:39.519 People do listen to a three-hour episode. 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:42.560 I told Ash if we don't have YouTube, it's never gonna work. 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:50.160 We don't have YouTube, people still listen to this, people find it, and it's not just about that, like it's genuinely helped people. 00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:52.720 The messages we've received over the last six years. 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:55.279 Uh, I feel like I'm doing the acceptance speech already. 00:04:55.439 --> 00:05:02.000 Um, but the messages we've received over the last six years of people saying genuinely, genuinely, this helped me. 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:06.480 Um, and I've come out to my family or I've I've made a change in my level, whatever it is. 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:11.040 And you know, that's why we show up month after month to to keep doing this. 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:15.680 And I'm not gonna lie, it would be nice to have a little trophy to show for it. 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:18.480 Yeah, no, absolutely, it would, it would, it would. 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:22.879 And and you're right, you know, um, there has been a battle. 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:27.120 There was a battle at first about whether or not we were doing the right length, whether we're doing them often, whatever. 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:42.639 I mean, obviously, we'd love to do more, but I think people, the people, the general feedback is that people like the length, they like treating them like a like a long episode of you know, a morning program like this morning or whatever, and they come back to it and they stop it and start it and rewind it and whatever. 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:45.600 So it's their little treat over a particular time, you know. 00:05:45.759 --> 00:06:02.720 But on the list, um Laurie, we're up against somebody who's done a podcast story about uh the whole issue of um um aversion therapy, which is obviously a very serious topic, and uh that's in there. 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:06.879 We're in on up against a podcast called Trans Crush. 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:19.279 Um, we're up against a podcast called the Divorce Podcast, uh, and we're up against a another one, which is sex in space, I think. 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:20.399 So there you go. 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:22.240 What do you think to our competition, Laurie? 00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:25.040 Um, I think I know the divorce podcast. 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:26.560 I think that's one to watch out for. 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:33.600 The rest of them I don't think will measure up, but uh, I'm pretty sure the divorce podcast is pretty well known. 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:44.720 Thanks to all our all our great fans for supporting us and also enabling us to get uh you know number one on the hundred top LGBT podcast globally. 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:46.079 I mean, that's fantastic as well. 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:53.279 Hopefully at some point it'll uh generate some sponsorship, which would be really nice if anybody's listening and wants to sponsor the bisexual brunch. 00:06:53.360 --> 00:07:00.480 But I think the other thing about us is, of course, is that it's been interesting in recent times is the fact that we get to so many places around the world. 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:07.920 You know, we're we're we're actually in, I think it's something like 90 odd percent of the uh of countries around the world have listeners. 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:16.959 Now, uh there might not be a massive amount of listeners, but we have such a huge spread, which you know, which are which a lot of podcasts that have got huge numbers haven't got. 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:20.959 So it's interesting how how widespread we are, really, which I think is quite nice as well. 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:30.800 I found that with sex podcasts that deal with anything that's um outside heteronormativity, they get the furthest globally. 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:39.120 When I when I was doing age that of sex regularly, I had listeners from like the farthest flung, I'd be like, really? 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:41.600 You know, how are they listening from there? 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:52.800 But it's sort of these are people who are on the internet desperately searching for information on topics that they cannot easily access information in their country on. 00:07:53.519 --> 00:08:14.000 So, like if you're doing sort of a global, more mainstream podcast, you may not get the kind of reach because you know, there's 150 of them on those topics, and so you've got a lot more listeners, but it'll tend to be, you know, maybe it'll be in Europe or it'll be in Europe and America. 00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:28.160 But when you're looking at at topics that are a little bit less usual, that people really need the help and advice on, they will desperately search, and you know, there'll be 10 things that will come up and that will be it. 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:40.320 And so you end up with much more of a reach, which I'm absolutely grateful for because you know, you I'm sure you're aware that there are many places where even talking about this isn't is questionable. 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:50.159 Yeah, we are we have people who listen to us who have literally said they listened to us and heard the word bisexual for the first time and never heard it said before anywhere. 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:50.879 Do you know what I mean? 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:53.759 It was our our podcast for the first time they'd heard it. 00:08:53.919 --> 00:09:03.200 And and just to uh reiterate this point, uh, I suppose this evening I've had a an email in from um someone whose uh life has again been touched by us. 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:04.159 Thank you for your show. 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:10.399 Having struggled with my bi-identity for two years, it is so refreshing and reassuring to know that I am not alone. 00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:18.000 I grew up in the late 70s and early 80s where there was huge amounts of sexual conformity, either you were straight or gay, and that was your choice. 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:22.320 I've never spoken to anyone or contacted anyone about my sexuality. 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:28.000 I have been very happily married for 27 years and love my wife dearly and can't imagine not being with her. 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:36.080 As with most, it seems to be major life events that make people reassess themselves physically, mentally, emotionally, and sexually. 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:43.759 Although my life event was only moving to another part of the country and a new job, basically I am starting a new chapter in my life. 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:45.200 Keep up the great show. 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:48.000 You've got another avid listener, Chris. 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:48.559 There you go. 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:50.960 I don't know where Chris is, but thank you for getting in touch, Chris. 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:51.679 And that's really nice. 00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:53.759 And we get those messages all the time. 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:56.639 I mean, it's just um it is it is amazing, really. 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:03.279 Um, so yeah, so hopefully, Lewis, fingers crossed, we'll find out the short list, you know, maybe in a couple of weeks' time. 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:06.559 Either way, just to get as far as we have, I think is it's brilliant. 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:10.480 So uh thank you to all the listeners, and uh we'll crack on with the show. 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:14.639 So, a couple of hefty topics to talk about this evening, and uh it's quite good. 00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:16.799 We've got Laurie Beth Bisbee here, really, isn't it? 00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:25.840 Laurie, there's um and Lewis, there's been um uh some research has come out in the last few weeks, bit of coverage in LGBT press. 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:32.960 Uh, there's often bits of research about bisexuality, and we've had no end of reports over the years about oh, bisexuality is real. 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:34.559 Um, yeah, we knew that, you know. 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:51.039 So you get these things over here, but with this one, it's focusing on the issue of OCD symptoms that apparently affect sexual desire, arousal, orgasm, genital pain, and how these difficulties impact well-being and relationships. 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:56.320 So they've done a study over a period of time, different studies, in fact, added up. 00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:01.840 This is by the um Oxford Academic, looking at these and reviewing these different studies. 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:12.720 I think 1,500 people took part all together, uh, 512 with OCD, 314 with sexual dysfunction, 699 with controls, whatever that is. 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:15.039 Um, and they'd analyze these different findings. 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:24.639 And it is basically looking at the whole issue of um people who are consistently uh having issues with questioning themselves and their sexuality. 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:32.240 So they're constantly to verify if they are bisexual, are they bisexual enough to be classed as bisexual or whatever it may be? 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:45.200 So there's this constant everyday feelings of uh questioning which affects them in terms of their general um day-to-day and communicating with different people, but also affects them sexually as well. 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:53.759 And uh the report that's come out is is suggesting that a lot of LGBT people and bisexual people, uh in particular, some people have been saying, uh, are affected by this. 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:59.120 Now, I know the the these studies all the time, uh, we get them quite a bit. 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:24.720 And I also know, and Lewis um often mentions this on the shows when we talk about anything that's um focused on LGBT, that um, you know, often it's the case that the numbers in these things um aren't necessarily strong enough to categorically say it's something that's affecting bisexual people per se, it could be affecting other people with other sexual sexuality issues. 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:44.799 Um, but it is true to say though, Laurie, isn't it, that and from your experience, I'm sure you'll vouch for this, that there are a lot of bisexual people, and a lot of us probably have been in a situation whereby we've spent time questioning who we are, what we are, because there's nothing reflected back to us generally when it comes to bisexuality. 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:48.399 You don't see it out there, so yeah, that's one of the issues, isn't it? 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:52.639 So I mean, I think I think let's clarify this research bit for a second. 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:56.639 Yeah, the controls are people who had nothing wrong with them, right? 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:06.480 So, what they did was they they did what is called a review study, which is where they look at a whole bunch of other studies and they try and amalgamate the findings, right? 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:09.840 So they try and make the findings into one big finding. 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:13.519 Well, not one big finding, usually a number of big findings. 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:15.039 They're looking for trends. 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:23.039 So, like one study might have 150 people, another study had 450 people, but it found the same thing and the people were similar. 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:26.000 So, you know, so that's what they're doing. 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:34.159 But like almost half the people in this were control, and that's good when you're looking at making sure that it scientifically makes sense. 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:37.600 But for what it how it's being reported, it's unhelpful. 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:42.639 Um, because there just aren't that many bisexual people over all the studies. 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:54.639 So again, I think what Lewis says typically I would I always highlight, which is it's really difficult to take this research and pin it to um bisexual people. 00:13:54.799 --> 00:14:07.759 The other part of my problem with it is we have only not been seen as abnormal, psychiatrically abnormal, for a relatively short period of time. 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:20.879 So whenever there's a research study that like has an actual diet diagnosed people in it, my worry is always that that helps more people pathologize us again. 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:24.240 Um, and however, so having said so. 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:27.200 I don't actually find the research that useful, is what I'm saying. 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:32.080 Having looked through it, I didn't find it that useful at all. 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:42.960 Having said that, what you are saying about us questioning ourselves is something I wish they would research that on its own, because that's actually a thing. 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:47.919 Before we go on to that, we'll talk a bit more about what we all go through in a moment. 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:54.399 But what you just mentioned there about the fact that we haven't been validated, as it were, for very long. 00:14:54.480 --> 00:15:04.559 And as it were, you know, we're talking about in the 1970s or whatever, uh uh sex homosexuality um was satisfied by the DSM, wasn't it? 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:07.200 Um, as a mental disorder for a long time. 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:10.000 It was one of the you know, like one of the paraphilias. 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:12.240 So it was considered a sexual disorder. 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:13.519 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:14.080 Exactly. 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:16.320 I just think it's all it's important for people to understand that. 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:30.159 So that and and the DSM, just so people listening understand, is a is a is a book, basically, which is created by a group of psychiatrists in America generally, uh, every few years. 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:35.200 Um, and they categorize lots of different mental illnesses, don't they? 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:37.120 Not illnesses as such, but whatever they call them. 00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:39.120 They label people, don't they? 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:41.519 Basically, they they were illnesses. 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:45.039 I think it's important to be, because I think this is the bit people don't get. 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:53.679 It's important to be actually just like you if you go to the doctor um because you've got something wrong with your stomach and you want to diagnose this so that they can treat you. 00:15:53.919 --> 00:16:00.799 So this was the this is the diagnostic Bible of mental illnesses so you can get treatment. 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:04.879 Now, there are other things in there that are not categorized as illnesses. 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:19.200 For example, um, if you are um exposed to a really stressful environment and you develop an acute stress disorder, they might not consider acute stress a mental illness because you're responding to something right now. 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:27.600 Or if you are have a developmental problem, you would be in there, but they might not call it mental illness per se, but it is a problem. 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:43.039 So the book's focused on what's wrong so that we can then say what how to treat people, but also so we can research because you can't research if you can't make good categories, and we still do bad research all over the place. 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:47.679 And of course, the other thing about it though is it's been it's evolving all the time. 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.759 So new categories come in, and there's a dispute, isn't there? 00:16:51.840 --> 00:17:02.639 A lot of the psychiatrists argue about it, and you know, it's not it's a very controversial book in a way, but it has become, in a way, the the Bible, hasn't it? 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:08.480 Globally, it's actually no, no, it's actually there's a more global equivalent, which is the WHO. 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:09.359 Yes, of course. 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:13.279 Okay, so the ICD, I think we're at 11 now. 00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:35.359 The World Health Organization's international classifications of diseases, ICD, 11, is is the equivalent, but what the World Health Organization does is it does mental diseases in one and uh in the same rubric and the same group as it does physical diseases, where as in the US they divide it. 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:46.160 That's a different so it is it is so it is a recognized Bible, and so in in the 70s, homosexuality was still considered a mental disorder. 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:47.440 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:59.759 Um, and so and you know, also one probably remembers that that there was lots of legislation that went on even later than that, where it was illegal in various places, still illegal in various places. 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:19.839 So but bisexuality really wasn't talked much about, it was kind of a footnote, and that's why I think it's so important that when we look at research, that first of all, that people actually try and research us, which happens, you know, sex research is problematic anyway because of getting subjects, blah blah blah. 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:22.720 But we're actually not that hard to find. 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:42.720 And yet we still don't get a lot of research devoted towards us, which is sad, because um people make assumptions that male bisexuals will fit into the category of gay men and that female bisexuals will fit into the category of lesbians, and they don't. 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:48.799 Um so we we we suffer erasure in the world. 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:56.480 We don't see people not only don't we see people reflecting us, but when we do see people reflecting us, it's more as a fetish. 00:18:57.920 --> 00:18:58.160 Right? 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:01.200 It's like, oh, the threesome or oh the right. 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:08.400 It's not it's not your sexual orientation's pretty central, a central piece of who you are. 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:14.640 So then we're also not we're also not rec recognized and represented within the LGBTQ either, are we? 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:15.359 Exactly. 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:16.559 So that's the problem. 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:20.799 So so it's we're sort of an afterthought. 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:28.960 And that's gotten worse over the years as we've started changing language around gender. 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:39.599 Um, and so like female bisexuals are are practically completely erased because you can't identify what that actually means anymore. 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:48.319 I mean, it used to be an actually very simple definition, but also we now have many, many, many more sexual orientations. 00:19:48.480 --> 00:20:05.200 Now there are some things I think are incredibly valid that have now made the list that are actual orientations, but we now have so many that again, like talk about the distinction between pansexual and bisexual. 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:05.839 Yes. 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:18.880 And there is a distinction, but the fact is, I suspect that a lot of people who are truly bisexual now call themselves pansexual because the you get more attention, more interest if you're pansexual than if you're bisexual. 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:28.079 Bisexuality always well, it still has this sort of uh you know, the whole thing about people thinking people are greedy and and all that kind of thing. 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:34.400 And uh I always feel as though if I say I'm bisexual, people think I'm showing up, basically. 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:37.039 Somehow I'm I'm declared I'm bisexual. 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:38.240 Well, what do you mean you bisexual? 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:43.039 You know, as though I'm literally at it all the time, constantly, you know. 00:20:43.119 --> 00:21:02.400 So well, and I you know, I I laugh because this is also a thing about polyamory, which is that people, you know, I was just interviewed for the for uh one of these popular magazines about my relationships, and um, you know, she seemed to think she was like, Well, what's a typical day of yours look like? 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:06.319 As though it was gonna look any different than a typical day of anybody else. 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:10.559 And I was like, We're boring, right? 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:13.519 We're boring, you can't tell. 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:18.880 And so it's it's that kind of thing, you know. 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:35.680 And in a sense, because of all the myth and the fancifulness and all the fantasy around us as a category, that we miss out the the things that are important, you know, including things like we don't get the health information we need sometimes. 00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:47.039 It's amazing to me that um again, if you're male and you are having sex with men more often. 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:50.960 And so you're bisex because bisexuals, it's never 50 50. 00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:52.400 That's not how life works. 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:58.880 You know, some of us are closer to a 50 50 desire level, but most of us. 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.079 Fall a little bit to one side or a little bit to the other. 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:14.799 And so if you're a male who's mostly having sex with males but also has sex with women, those women aren't getting the information that they need. 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:36.079 Um, your partners, but you are more likely to get information than if you're a woman or a person with female genitalia, and you are having sex with both people with female genitalia and people with male genitalia because somehow they don't look at STD process the same. 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:38.799 They don't look at so you don't get the information. 00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:42.000 Um, so we miss out on health information. 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:46.240 We miss out on testing unless we know about it, so we can ask for it. 00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:51.680 We miss out on advice around HIV and AIDS and things like PrEP and stuff like that. 00:22:51.839 --> 00:23:14.079 And these are not small things, these are things like right now, there's a new sexually transmitted infection going crazy throughout the UK and in particular London, which is a uh an antibiotic resistant uh multiple antibiotic resistant Shigella, which is being sexually transmitted and causes horrible diarrhea. 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:18.000 It is not, this is not a pleasant thing to get. 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:29.599 But the news about it, unless you see it in the sensational press, is almost entirely being projected to the gay male population, as though nobody else needs the information. 00:23:30.000 --> 00:24:03.440 One thing we can agree on, I think, is that bisexual people, and we this comes out in all our interviews with people, is that they people go through a whole process of questioning because there's no validation there, there's nobody they're looking out on TV on you know sitcoms and soap operas and dramas and whatever and films, a few now, but not many, that they're not having their lives reflected, and you don't have people talking about bisexuality in in general, in the pub or wherever, or I mean, obviously you can go online and find things, but it's just not in the general discourse. 00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:05.279 People think of the binaries. 00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:17.359 So if you've got bisexual feelings, you've got feelings that are changeable, or you know, you're going up and down, one minute you're fancying men, next minute you're fancying women, uh, you know, or any other gender kind of thing. 00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:19.599 Um, you are going to question it, aren't you? 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:24.559 And you're not gonna know where to go because there's nobody out there really who can answer the questions. 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:31.759 I mean, so many people we we talk to say they've been occasionally to councils and things who haven't been very particularly clued up. 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:37.440 They've been largely, yeah, they can focus on gay issues, but don't tend to necessarily understand bisexuality. 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:39.839 So I suppose, yeah, so I think we've all been there. 00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:46.400 I've certainly been in a situation a long time ago, not now, because I'm very much focused, you know, I'm fine with buying, I've got an issue. 00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:53.039 But I do remember in my younger years, certainly when I was a teenager, wondering, well, where am I? 00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:54.960 What's really going on here? 00:24:55.119 --> 00:25:16.480 And I do know that I think I mean I I was I moved in when I was quite young, I was involved in politics, and uh quite early on I ended up having relationships with men, so there tended to be quite a lot of men in politics, and so therefore I built up relationships with men, but I never stopped fancying women, but I went down this sort of male, gay male route. 00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:30.559 Um, but I know full well that if I'd carried, if I'd not got into politics and I'd been, you know, my dad was a miner and then became an artist and various things, but um, but he was very, very much working class guy, and he went to the pub every you know several times a week, kind of thing. 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:41.039 If I'd carried on down that, going down that route and lived in a mining village in Yorkshire all my life or whatever, I think I probably would have ended up with a a girlfriend fairly quickly and settled down, all the rest of it. 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:47.279 And I've been in a situation later in life when I've been question questioning, thinking, oh, what do I do about that other side to myself? 00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:59.119 I I don't question it much now, the other side in terms of going with women, but I do luckily I'm in a relationship with a man who understands that I am I do fancy women, and I we can at least talk about it and things like that. 00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:05.519 So that that's not a bit of an issue, but definitely I questioned it over and over again. 00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:19.200 And I can imagine that people who haven't been lucky enough to get into a relationship where your partner is comfortable with it and doesn't have a problem with it and you can communicate, it must be help to go through that constant, constant, you know. 00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:29.920 One of the hard things is that part of where the questioning comes from is that people will say it's is the is the feedback you get from the the people who might be your partners. 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:32.960 I remember, I mean, I actually didn't question myself. 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:36.240 I understood I liked women, I liked men, I didn't care, right? 00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:45.519 Um, for me, power dynamic was more important, and so gender wasn't, but I also, you know, recognized, I identified as bisexual. 00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:48.240 I understood that that was fine, that's how I was. 00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:50.559 But I remember I I went to graduate school. 00:26:50.720 --> 00:27:01.200 I was um 22 when I went to graduate, I was young, just become just coming up to 23 when I went to graduate school. 00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:05.279 And um some woman came up to me. 00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:15.759 I was standing around looking at and I was obviously, you know, what one of the things is that when you when you fancy people, you look longer at them than when you don't, right? 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:19.279 Um, and I was obviously, I thought she was she was pretty hot. 00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:26.000 So I was I was not quite staring, but obviously I kept the gaze longer than a straight woman would have done. 00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:29.119 And so she came up to me and she said, You going to the party tonight? 00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:31.440 And I was like, Oh, I haven't been invited. 00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:33.759 And she said, Well, no, everybody's invited. 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:40.640 Well, she was talking about there was a the gay and lesbian alliance party or something like that. 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:47.200 Bisexual people were now this is in the early 80s, okay? 00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:56.079 Bisexual people were would be included, but they weren't the the promo wasn't two bisexual people, right? 00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:02.559 So I was like, Well, you know, I haven't been invited because she just thought I was gay. 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:08.400 And then she wondered why I didn't understand that any gay woman could come or any gay man could come. 00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:12.160 And it was like, well, because not, and I remember saying, but I'm not gay. 00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:18.559 And she was like, Well, sure you are, and then you know, I eventually said sort of said, Well, I'm bisexual. 00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:35.279 Oh, you can come too, but it was like and so that was like kind of an example of it, but also the first woman I got with properly, you know, telling me that I just hadn't met the right woman and insisting that I would never want a man again. 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:43.119 The first man I told I was bisexual just wanted to, you know, have me bring a girlfriend in so he could have fun. 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:54.720 You know, so it was like there was no there was no understanding that this was a real identity and that I had real needs behind it. 00:28:54.799 --> 00:29:02.960 And I think when you talk about the fact, you know, uh of how people end up questioning themselves, it's because they, you know, they're like, Well, do I have do I have these needs? 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:04.000 What's going on here? 00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:06.480 Maybe it is just a fantasy or a fetish. 00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:10.880 Maybe everybody has this fantasy because there wasn't a place for you. 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:16.880 And then, you know, I that was around the time that the AIDS epidemic was exploding. 00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:29.119 So, of course, the energy and attention was on dealing with this, and then we won't talk about, you know, I remember getting the phone call, you need to go get tested. 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:33.839 And I was like, So and so die. 00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:40.480 Well, because I was sleeping with men who also slept with men, because I was bisexual, I didn't make the distinction, right? 00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:44.720 And none of us were using protection at that period of time. 00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:48.720 Um, so it was sort of there but for the grace. 00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:54.240 Well, well, well, we we said earlier on that we probably have a few tangents that we all always do on this show. 00:29:54.400 --> 00:30:00.319 Just just because it's interesting, um, we let's go off a little bit of a tangent there for a second. 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:11.920 So you were too you're talking about a period of time when obviously HIV and AIDS was at its height and you're in America, and it's often forgotten, isn't it? 00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:16.000 How much bisexual men were blamed for a lot of things. 00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:20.880 Well, what did just tell us what people went through when it came to that? 00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:22.559 I mean, it was really difficult. 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:25.839 Um, because bisexual men got blamed initially. 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:29.119 There was some suggestion that it came from outside the community. 00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:36.799 First, it first it was it always, you know, first it was it came from the gay community, that's where it was, you know, it didn't exist anywhere else. 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:41.599 Then it was um, well, no, it was brought in from outside. 00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:53.759 When they when they started talking about um IV drug users, then there was some suggestion in certain quarters that the way that it got into the gay male community was bisexual IV drug users. 00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:55.359 So there was blame there. 00:30:55.599 --> 00:31:06.400 Then there was also not a lot of information available for the bisexual population, um, because there wasn't a lot of information available for the gay male population. 00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:11.200 Nobody understood what was happening and everybody was afraid. 00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:37.920 But because of that, that meant that quite frighteningly, the bisexual folks that were being exposed on a regular basis were taking this and exposing a much wider swatch of people because they weren't getting the memo that said, you know, if they weren't there was a lot of focus on anal sex. 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:43.920 If they weren't having anal sex, then people thought they were okay. 00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:54.720 And since they weren't sure exactly how this was transmitted, because I'm talking like I'm talking like 79, 80, 81, 82, we're talking about early days. 00:31:55.680 --> 00:32:03.279 And those were the days where even though you could get herpes via not using a condom, people didn't think about it so much. 00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:06.400 It was really common for people not to use condoms. 00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:16.079 And so there wasn't as much specific information focused on the bisexual community to try and and help combat the spread. 00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:22.240 Um, and there wasn't as many resources either. 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:27.119 I mean, there weren't resources for anybody, to be fair, but there wasn't the same kind of support. 00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:34.319 Um over time, over time, obviously HIV things got better because treatments came in, etc. 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:38.640 Um, and things have got better over the decades, I suppose, in that sense. 00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:47.039 Um, but do you think it left I don't think it was uh I don't think bisexuals were targeted in exactly the same way here in the UK, to be fair. 00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:58.319 It wasn't as much of a focus on bisexuals, but do you think in America it left a uh a sort of a mistrust thing between straight women and bi men. 00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:00.480 Oh, absolutely still last to this day, yeah. 00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:01.599 Oh, absolutely. 00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:03.599 That was the huge, that was a huge thing. 00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:19.279 And there was a huge because a lot, and still to this day, you'll get a lot of men who have sex with men and who are are attracted to women and have sex with women who we would identify as bisexual, will still not identify themselves as bisexual. 00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:21.839 They're people having sex on the down low, right? 00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:33.599 Um, because the stigma around it was such a big deal that there there still is not enough kind of I guess it takes us back to where we were. 00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:37.680 There's not enough reflection, so you don't see the community in there. 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:43.759 And particularly men that spend more time having sex with women. 00:33:44.559 --> 00:34:00.480 You know, that there's there's this issue, like for them to admit that they're bisexual becomes this huge issue because there's not an un as much of an understanding in the straight female, the heterosexual female population, and there's a big panic around what it actually means. 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:08.559 Yeah, it's you know, then of course there's the lesbians who won't sleep with bisexual women because bisexual women sleep with people who have penises. 00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:10.639 A topic for another day, that one. 00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:12.800 We'll go into detail on that sort of stuff. 00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:16.960 But coming back to the main topic, as we've got our done our tangent, we'll come back now. 00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:25.760 So the issue then, Lewis, is about the fact that bisexual people are forever questioning themselves about their sexuality. 00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:26.400 We know this. 00:34:26.559 --> 00:34:33.840 People contact us, say that they've spent years and years questioning what it is about why are they bisexual, are they bisexual enough? 00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:41.920 You know, are they bisexual, oh, they've had an affair with a man, oh, they must be straight, oh, I've had an affair with a woman, I must be gay now, I'm not sure where it's going, kind of thing. 00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:47.920 Um, Lori and I have just reflected on how how we've dealt with that or how it's affected us. 00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:58.719 Have there been times in your life where, you know, before maybe you got with Laura or whatever, where you did spend time questioning which camp you were in, as it were. 00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:00.400 Oh, of course. 00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:02.559 I mean, I mean, that's the whole thing, right? 00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:30.079 I thought I really enjoyed what Laurie just said, though, about the history, because I actually think that probably we haven't spoken enough about the history of we can talk about our experiences of now and and the modern day, but actually there's a reason of how we got here, and I think that you just really told the story that we all needed to hear of well, this is this is the backstory, this is why people's attitudes are the way it is, this is why this is on the down low. 00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:33.840 Um, and it is such an important part of the story that we probably don't tell enough. 00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:43.199 I think when we think about um AIDS and HIV and what happened there, I think a lot of it is talked about through what happened to gay men and and the loss the communities have. 00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:49.920 And I know that we talk a lot about for gay men, it's like they don't have their grandfathers, their gay grandfathers in a way like that. 00:35:50.239 --> 00:36:11.599 Absolutely, they don't have that, but you know, the the consequences that we as bisexuals have is is all the stigma um which sent women off seeing bisexuals a different way, and sent bisexual people themselves seeing them a different way, and we didn't have the community, and it was seen as and and we're still recovering from that all these decades later. 00:36:11.679 --> 00:36:14.719 And so I think it was it's very important to reflect on that. 00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:26.239 Number one, with regard to to myself, yes, you know, I I so many people that are bisexual reach out to me and say, Don't know any other bisexual people, and I think that especially when you're coming out, that is very true. 00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:27.840 Maybe it's changing for the younger generations. 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:29.280 I'm getting a bit old now. 00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:37.920 Um, but I definitely, when I was coming out and realized that I liked men, it was like, well, everyone around you was like, Well, you're gay then, you're gay. 00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:51.039 Like if you have had a penis in your mouth, you are gay and there is no coming back, and and maybe for a while sort of believing that, um, and then realizing, but if that's true, then why do I think that she's tall? 00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:54.000 Like, and and then almost being like, Well, what does this mean? 00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:56.960 Am I only am I just gay when I'm drunk? 00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:58.400 Is it like what is it? 00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:17.199 And and and then really coming to that realization, and that realization taking so long, like so many years, and then you having the realization yourself, but not knowing how to communicate that to the outside world that only sees gay and straight people, taking years to think, you know what, I think I can trust this person. 00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:19.280 Should I should I tell them how I feel? 00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:20.480 How are they gonna react? 00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:26.639 And then I think getting to that point, and I am not someone that advocates everyone coming out for some people, it is dangerous to come out. 00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:29.440 For some people, you might just think it's just none of anyone's business. 00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:31.119 I'm just gonna do this my way. 00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:37.119 Um, but for me, what really got me to that point was me getting to that point of saying, fuck off. 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:41.840 Like, I and I'm sorry for the bad, but you know, it's like I am not gonna hide any longer. 00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:49.039 If you have got a problem with the fact that I find men and women attractive, I don't want to be your friend, and actually, you should just leave this room. 00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:50.480 Like, I'm not dealing with it. 00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:52.800 If you have questions, that's fine. 00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:57.679 You know, and I have I have a high tour, I spend most of my time on right-wing news channels having debates. 00:37:57.920 --> 00:38:00.800 I am a fair person, I will talk to anyone. 00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:07.920 But if you fundamentally dislike me because I happen to be attracted to more than one gender, just get in the bin. 00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:10.320 You know what's so funny about that? 00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:13.440 There are two things that really come up for me as you're talking. 00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:19.760 Well, one of them is this idea that, like, because I had a penis in my mouth, that I must be gay. 00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:24.880 Uh, how many clients that I say, let's try not to have an identity? 00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:27.199 I know this feels really difficult. 00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:36.239 Let's try to just look at what you enjoy and fuck the whole, excuse my language, but the whole you must join an identity group. 00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:37.679 You don't have to. 00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:41.280 You can have you don't have to call yourself anything. 00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:44.320 And you know, you can take your time and describe yourself. 00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:49.039 But the other one is my mother telling me that it was a phase I was going through. 00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:52.880 Um so I remember her telling me that at 15. 00:38:53.440 --> 00:39:05.199 At um 60, she met a girlfriend of mine and finally looked at me because it took this long and said, okay, maybe it's not a phase. 00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:06.239 Yeah. 00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:06.960 Right? 00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:11.920 It's like that whole people are waiting for you to come to your senses. 00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:13.119 Yeah. 00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:13.920 Yeah. 00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:17.920 And I I think that's definitely true of the LGBT community. 00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:21.119 I I lost a lot of friends coming out as bi. 00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:27.199 Um, because when I kind of came out as bi, I actually like ended up dating a guy. 00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:33.360 And so I was telling my gay friends I'm bi, but they were seeing the actions of a gay man. 00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:39.519 And then when that relationship ended after two and a half years, that was quite a long time to be in a relationship and people to get comfortable. 00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:44.719 When I started to be single and kiss women, I mean, it was a scandal of Soho. 00:39:45.280 --> 00:40:04.159 I remember um having a night out with some friends, and then the next day that you I um was looking on our WhatsApp, and what had happened was one of the guys had taken a picture of me kissing this girl outside a club and taken a picture of it, put it on the group, and the comments under it were horror. 00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:06.639 It was, you know, oh my god, disgusting. 00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:11.360 A gay being seduced in Soho, when's he gonna let the club on? 00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:20.880 And I was just like, guys, if the shoe was on the other foot here, if if there was a straight person saying this to a gay person, I mean, we'd just never hear the end of it. 00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:24.400 Like, how can you ask for a quality and not give me mine? 00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:34.000 It doesn't make any sense, but also at that time, not really just being on the cusp of being strong enough to say that, but not really being strong enough to say that at the time. 00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:51.440 And the other thing that um probably keeps me doing this to this day is um is I I remember once one of my ex-boyfriends' friends at the time saying, Well, you don't get any 30-year-old bisexuals, do you, Lewis? 00:40:51.679 --> 00:40:56.159 And me being so unconfident in myself at the time that I said, Yeah, I guess you're right. 00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:00.480 Well, now I'm in my 30s, I have children, and I'm still bisexual, goddammit. 00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:12.639 And I part of me feels a responsibility to keep being vocal because people would look at me and see a female partner and three kids running behind me and say, Oh, well, there's a straight guy, or he turned straight in the end, didn't he? 00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:18.239 That's why I feel that need to keep talking about it, so that younger bisexuals know that this is what bisexual looks like. 00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:25.920 You might end up single and in your 50s, you might end up with children in your 30s, you might end up in a with a woman, a man, or whoever else. 00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:32.639 Just to bring this into perspective, there's actually an article today in uh a magazine called Nonchalant Magazine. 00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:38.400 It's written by Eliza Muller, a French media professional and proud bisexual woman. 00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:39.519 And uh you can read it. 00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:44.880 It's called the the piece called Nine Times My Brain Tried to Tell Me I Wasn't Straight. 00:41:45.039 --> 00:42:03.679 In it, she looks back at all the neon bright signs she missed, the sapphic bratz doll dramas she talks about, the scrapbooks of underwear models, the bedroom walls plastered with Britney, Beyoncé, and Shakira, the lesbian films she was obsessed with, even the jealousy she felt after kissing a girl at a sleepover. 00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:06.320 Every clue came with an excuse. 00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:26.400 And she talks about those so-called practice kiss kiss practice kisses that girls do, the quick throwaway pecs teenage girls do for fun to demonstrate having a kiss, and how hers wasn't just practice at all, and she often felt jealousy afterwards, and uh that was her real clue that the feelings were genuine. 00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:35.119 She also talks about the moment a film finally made bisexuality feel possible to her, and how coming out at 18 didn't end the doubt. 00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:41.599 He just started a new chapter on picking compulsory extrasexuality and learning to trust her own attraction. 00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:51.360 It shows exactly why bi people often question themselves more, not because they're confused, but because nobody ever reflected their identity back at them, as we as we keep saying. 00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:55.360 So I think it's a nice little article if everyone anyone wants to go and read it. 00:42:55.519 --> 00:43:11.199 Um, Laurie, um Lewis and I will probably have something to say in a moment, but on that thing of women, I don't know if this is completely true, but women tell me that they're often that women have very close relationships a lot of the time. 00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:22.400 I think that is taken as red that women are often closer emotionally and physically to each other than than men are or than all or or the men let on, as it were. 00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:32.079 So there are often moments, aren't there, in being a woman, being in female circles as a young girl or whatever, where it could become quite intimate fairly easily. 00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:35.199 Did you have this little lady's uh alluding to that? 00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:37.360 Did you have situations like that yourself? 00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:42.800 Well, I mean, I think you know when I was growing up, and you have to keep in mind I'm 63. 00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:45.199 So it what we were learning about. 00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:46.880 Oh whippersnapper. 00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:58.079 What we talked about though at that time, the way we saw gender at that time, what was being taught in schools and what was reflected was very binary, right? 00:43:58.239 --> 00:43:58.559 Yes. 00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:16.880 So I always I tell a story when I when I do my talk on kink, which is that um, you know, there's a period of time that used to be called the latency period in developmental psych between about seven to eight and ten, when boys would experiment, would hang out mostly with boys, and girls would hang out mostly with girls. 00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:20.639 And that's a period of time that kissy face stuff that you're talking about. 00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:23.280 That's the period of time they did it. 00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:27.360 Now I I I had other things that I did then. 00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:30.960 I I was a little bit more severe. 00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:38.000 Um yeah, well, I mean, so I already I already was fascinated by power dynamics. 00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:42.480 So I we were doing kissy face and I asked my girlfriend to sit on my face. 00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:45.760 So, you know, that was like that was where I was. 00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:50.880 Um clothes because we never took our clothes off of this stuff back then. 00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:55.599 Um, and you know, she did it, she thought it was weird, but she did it anyway. 00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:58.239 I then had to reflect on what was this about. 00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:05.039 But I remember that my kisses with my girlfriends were definitely deeper. 00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:11.679 And while I don't remember jealousy, I remember the deep hurt when I discovered that they weren't at all interested in women. 00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:13.199 Right? 00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:20.639 It was practice, and then they would go for a guy, and they wanted nothing more to do with me. 00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:39.039 And we were just friends, and so I don't think I met another bisexual person until I was in university, you know, um, and even then it was a long conversation and it was a guy, wasn't a I I don't think I met a bisexual woman till I was in graduate school. 00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:44.559 I mean, it's probably a long time, and and so it was definitely a thing, you know. 00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:56.079 I always used to say, like, if I really love somebody, then I want to have sex with them because of be of being attracted to men and women. 00:45:56.239 --> 00:46:07.760 So it was always complicated because I had to like give myself the pep talk that this person probably wouldn't be attracted to me, um, and it probably would be a problem, and I didn't want to ruin the friendship. 00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:10.480 And how did I make sure that I didn't overstep? 00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:15.119 Which meant that I completely missed the signals when someone was interested in me. 00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:22.559 And I to this day I can flirt with men like that, but flirting with women I am awful at. 00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:27.119 I never notice is my husband tells me when a woman's interested in me. 00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:27.760 Oh, really? 00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:30.400 Yeah, he's like, You didn't you didn't see that? 00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:31.920 I'm like, Yeah, I like her though. 00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:33.760 He's like, Well, then go say something. 00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:35.840 She look she's interested in you. 00:46:36.159 --> 00:46:38.800 Being non-monogamous is helpful in this in this way. 00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:39.840 Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:42.480 I actually need a wingman because I miss it. 00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:43.760 You miss it completely. 00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:44.719 Miss it completely. 00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:47.280 Um, so Lewis, what about men then? 00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:49.760 I mean, you know, it is more difficult, isn't it? 00:46:49.840 --> 00:47:12.000 We don't have those, we don't necessarily have those accepted intimate moments growing up with other guys like women do, because you know, women are very close and we know there's emotions there and and and physicality there, and it's not it's not frowned upon, even though, as Lori says, people get confused as to what it means for them individually. 00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:16.719 Um but it there is up, there are there are situations, aren't there? 00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:17.599 Male situations. 00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:30.719 So there are bromances that emerge, there are things like you know, in the showers, all these kind of things that happen, you know, people look at people and all the rest of it, and you know, get a bit excited, etc. 00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:32.239 There are all these kind of moments. 00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:48.320 I mean, I remember for me on several occasions as a as a teenager, I got very close to friends who were my like became my best friends, and I know that it was veering on being an emotional relationship. 00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:51.920 In fact, on a couple of occasions I saw them as emotional relationships. 00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:59.199 On one particular occasion, I blurted out and said, actually, I think I'm in love with you, and that killed the relationship off completely. 00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:00.880 Um, but do you know what I mean? 00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:21.679 So I suppose what I'm saying is that it's easy, isn't it, as a young uh by person, and by woman and by man, to get confused as to what these situations mean and what you know, did you ever have uh any any situations like this that you you got a bit confused, there was somebody there that you really liked, you wanted to do something. 00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:23.360 Did you or didn't you? 00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:24.559 Tell us about that. 00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:29.840 Well, I I mean I think we've all had under equated love or lust at some point. 00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:31.599 You're not really human if you're not. 00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:37.199 What I think is quite interesting is and it's really hard to talk about as an LGBT person. 00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:46.159 So I know there are a lot of like gay men out there that probably you know think, oh, it's just a matter of shots until until they're gay. 00:48:46.320 --> 00:49:08.159 It's not true, but uh, what I do have is some older gay friends that will tell me about in their youth, they're like, had sex with him, had sex with him, had sex with him, and now he's married with a woman and kids, and that actually maybe it was more about them being horny young teenagers than that guy's sexuality, but actually he was straight or something like that. 00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:11.039 And I think that we don't explore men's sexuality enough. 00:49:11.199 --> 00:49:21.760 And one on on my other podcast, I spoke to someone before and he said, Um, we always talk about what homophobia has cost the gay community, we never talk about what it's cost the straight community. 00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:33.360 Um, that sort of bro love of you know, men not being able to be too close with each other because then they might be seen as gay, and especially if you're not gay, that's going to be a problem. 00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:39.679 Um, I, you know, I think that men, there are some men, not all men, but would be a lot more comfortable. 00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:49.360 You know, there are there are men that you know wouldn't dream of having sex with another man, but might watch porn with their best mates or something like that, or um, you know, might have a threesome if there's a girl involved, or something like that. 00:49:49.440 --> 00:50:03.199 I I think that probably the line is a lot thinner than people try and make out, especially when your your masculinity's on the line and you know you're going, oh, I've you know, if I ever saw a naked man, I drop dead or whatever. 00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:11.679 Um, actually, I think that a lot more men, you know, if there was no sigma attached, would probably, you know, have a have a little try. 00:50:11.840 --> 00:50:13.679 Might not be for them, but whatever. 00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:18.639 And I do think there are a lot more people on that sexuality spectrum that than admit it. 00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:31.920 And I think you, you know, there are I think there are a lot of men, especially a lot of men that will reach out to me and say, look, I am attracted to men a little bit, but probably more attracted to women, and probably more importantly, romantically attracted to women. 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:44.000 So whilst it might be nice to watch a bit of porn with a guy once or actually have, you know, have some oral sex here and there, um, it's not enough of a thing for me to, you know, make this big deal and come out as bisexual. 00:50:44.159 --> 00:50:52.320 And I'm not, well, I totally I I do get that, but I just think if we lived in a world where there wasn't stigma around that, you'd probably be more open about it, you'd probably do it a bit more. 00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:53.920 And what would be the harm? 00:50:54.000 --> 00:51:01.599 But it's almost like, especially for men, and especially for the bisexual thing, because we know that the world will see us differently. 00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:08.239 And a lot, a lot of men will reach out to me and say, Lewis, the majority of women do not find bisexual men attractive. 00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:22.079 If I come out as bisexual, um, factoring in all the women that already don't find me attractive, you know, say say say if we had a hundred women, probably only about 17 of them might find me attractive. 00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:33.199 If I then say I'm bisexual and that goes down to three, you know, what someone said to me, Well, look, um, it's coming out as bisexual, basically coming out as gay because there's gonna be very few women that want to sleep with you. 00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:35.679 That's the calculation these men are doing in their head. 00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:47.039 And so a lot of them will say, Look, I'll just do things on the down low, or it's actually not that essential to me, a bit curious about it, but don't really, you know, I'm not gonna go and do that when the cost is so high. 00:51:47.280 --> 00:52:02.960 So I I do think there's a lot of factors that bisexual men think about, and I do think if that if that signal wasn't there, I think there would be a lot more open bisexual men that didn't think it was an issue, and I think there'd be a lot of horny straight men that might try a few things a couple of times, but does it really affect their sexuality? 00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:05.599 Yeah, and also I also think it's different. 00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:19.280 We were discussing earlier, Laurie Bruff, that um sexuality is everyone's varying degrees of it, and you you were saying that you think most people who are who are bi are swinging one way or another. 00:52:19.360 --> 00:52:21.119 So um more than 50-50. 00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:25.280 I mean I think of myself as 50-50, but some you know, um I think it changes, doesn't it? 00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:29.360 With lots of people, their sexuality goes up and down in different different ways. 00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:40.159 Um, well, I suppose what Lewis is saying there about the situation with the way he was portraying it in terms of them just having a bit of gay sex on the side, kind of thing, I suppose. 00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:42.320 It it equally can happen the other way, can't it? 00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:51.440 Because there are there are there are men who are you know very much into men emotionally and whatever, but they just need uh some fun with a woman occasionally as well. 00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:53.280 So it happens both ways. 00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:53.599 Do you? 00:52:53.679 --> 00:52:56.159 I mean, you've met lots of people in these kinds of situations. 00:52:56.320 --> 00:52:59.519 Have you come across tell us the kind of people you've come across on the other hand? 00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:01.760 I mean, I've I've met I've met both ways. 00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:03.519 I've met both ways, you know. 00:53:03.679 --> 00:53:09.679 I met I've met guys that it wouldn't be caught dead with a woman in public, right? 00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:32.800 Because they're gay um in their minds, um, some of them are, and have just occasionally had I remember uh a friend of mine who said there's one woman, and and for him it was there was one woman in his entire life that he was really attracted to um and loved dearly, and he would have sex with her whenever he had the opportunity, but it was only her, right? 00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:36.800 Now, do I think it was really only one woman he was ever attracted to? 00:53:37.039 --> 00:53:41.039 Probably not, but that was the way that he made sense of things. 00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:48.079 So he was gay except for this one woman, and therefore he never looked at bisexuality as a possibility, you know. 00:53:48.159 --> 00:54:04.480 I and I I've equally met women, you know, that would be like, yeah, you know, I would never sleep with a man except except I want to get pregnant, so all of a sudden I'm okay to sleep with a man, which is interesting because it's not like that happens right away. 00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:06.719 You know, no, exactly. 00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:15.760 And so I'm always curious at which women decide, you know, I remember one woman telling me, well, it's too expensive to have IVF. 00:54:17.360 --> 00:54:20.719 And I was like, but I thought you, you know, I'm just like honest. 00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:26.559 I'm like, I thought you are disgusted by you know heterosexual sex. 00:54:27.280 --> 00:54:32.719 And you know, she turned like sort of seven shades of red and then admitted that actually she had a good time. 00:54:33.519 --> 00:54:41.760 But there hadn't been space, like because admitting that, she said, you know, admitting that would be a really big problem. 00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:46.960 Like it's a big deal to be a gold star gay or a gold star lesbian, right? 00:54:48.000 --> 00:55:00.559 And so I think it's I think it's really hard because I do think we actually talk quite a lot about you know, straight communities reaction to um bisexual people. 00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:15.119 We don't actually talk as much about you know just how much prejudice there is within the LGBTQ community and how um problematic it can be being bisexual. 00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:45.119 Like you get shut out of all sorts of things because either it's assumed you wouldn't be interested or you're tolerated because they know you're there, but they don't people aren't lots of people aren't comfortable with things that are not binary, they're not comfortable with uncertainty, they don't sit well with ambivalence, and people who are bisexual, you know, their flexibility is is concerning. 00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:48.719 They don't know how to predict a bisexual person. 00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:50.159 Yeah, you're right. 00:55:50.400 --> 00:56:17.599 I've got um gay friends who very good gay friends, and um whenever I mention bisexual brunch, whenever I mentioned bisexuality, whenever I say that there's biurasia, whatever they go quiet, they don't want to respond, they don't want to have a comment, they don't you know if I push it, um their attitude is that um we're going on we go on about it too much. 00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:19.360 Why do we need to go on about it too much? 00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:22.880 In fact, if you just got on with it, it wouldn't be a big deal kind of thing. 00:56:23.039 --> 00:56:30.960 They they they find it quite uncomfortable to hear that people have got that that there's biphobia out there or that we've got an issue with it. 00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:33.360 Um that it's how would you get on with it? 00:56:33.519 --> 00:56:38.400 Because how are you supposed to get on with it when you don't it it's really difficult to tell people? 00:56:38.719 --> 00:56:39.679 Yeah, absolutely. 00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:46.079 You know, it's like if you say that you're bisexual, the ones that used to kill me were the people who thought I was a challenge. 00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:50.000 There were men who thought I was a challenge, and there were women who thought I was a challenge. 00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:53.679 Like I would stop being non-monogamous. 00:56:54.079 --> 00:56:55.440 This was this was the logic. 00:56:55.599 --> 00:57:09.199 I was non-monogamous because I was bisexual and couldn't pick a side, but if I met the right insert gender here, I would be finally convinced of my sexuality, and then of course I would be monogamous. 00:57:09.679 --> 00:57:16.719 Yeah, so you know, I'm I'm I'm difficult because I'm both both bisexual and non-monogamous, and it was too confusing. 00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:19.599 But I became the science experiment, right? 00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:31.920 You just haven't had the proper sex with a woman, you just haven't had the proper sex with a man, and we're gonna show you what it's like when you have a real man or a real woman, and it's just I'm sure I'm not alone in that. 00:57:32.239 --> 00:57:32.880 No, you're not. 00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:33.360 No, it's true. 00:57:33.840 --> 00:57:36.079 There's loads of people in that situation. 00:57:36.320 --> 00:57:36.719 Absolutely. 00:57:36.880 --> 00:57:40.800 Well, I feel as though we've talked forever already, actually, on this edition of bisexual bunch. 00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:44.719 We've been uh chatting for an hour, and we've plenty more to come. 00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:53.760 We have a bisexual journey story, which is from a comedian uh who describes himself as brown, blind, and bi. 00:57:54.239 --> 00:57:56.239 That's not to be missed uh later on. 00:57:56.400 --> 00:58:00.480 We've got two bisexual journey stories coming up as well. 00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:14.639 Uh, we're also going to be hearing from um Professor Eric Andersson in uh Sweden, who's going to talk to us a little bit more about that whole thing of bisexual people questioning their sexuality, constantly questioning it over time. 00:58:14.800 --> 00:58:18.719 Uh, he's an expert in OCD, but um with a twist, really. 00:58:18.800 --> 00:58:21.920 He's an expert in OCD around taboos. 00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:25.840 And of course, people think often of bisexuality as a taboo. 00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:33.280 So uh be sure to listen to uh my chat with uh Professor Eric Anderson in Sweden uh a little bit later on. 00:58:33.360 --> 00:58:35.920 But before all of that, we're gonna have some history. 00:58:36.159 --> 00:58:44.960 We're gonna take you back to the 1920s and a very special set of people, some of them quite well known, who happen to be bisexual. 00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:47.119 That's on the way next. 00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:56.000 You're listening to the Bisexual Brunch Podcast. 00:58:56.400 --> 00:59:09.440 Well, my name's Nino Straitchee, and I'm a writer and historian specializing in the work of the Bloomsbury Group, uh, which is a group of writers and artists who came together in the early 20th century to imagine society differently. 00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:28.800 Um, and they included my relation Lytton Straitchy, who was a biographer and author, but more famously Virginia Wolfe, um, the novelist, Maynard Keynes, the economist, Duncan Grant, Vanessa Bell, the artists, Roger Fry, the artist and literary critic, um, and I could go on, there's a whole range of people. 00:59:29.039 --> 00:59:35.360 But so primarily a group of writers and artists, but with this leading economist, Maynard Keynes, as as part of it as well. 00:59:35.679 --> 00:59:38.800 Obviously, you that you've told us the story in a nutshell in terms of your connection. 00:59:38.880 --> 00:59:47.360 But when did you personally first realize your family history wasn't just literary, but was spectacularly queer? 00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:52.960 And of course, in our sense, because we're talking about bisexual bisexuality, but it was had all the had all this history of bisexuality in it. 00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:56.159 When did when did all when did when did you become enlightened through all that? 00:59:56.480 --> 01:00:00.480 I think I've I've always known, as far as I can remember, uh, really. 01:00:00.639 --> 01:00:10.000 I think it's lovely to be a family that such has such a proud, queer history, um, and lovely for something to celebrate, particularly as I have a child who identifies as queer and non-binary. 01:00:10.079 --> 01:00:13.440 So it's lovely to have that heritage stretching back multiple generations. 01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:29.519 Um, so thinking in terms of, you know, I think it's often um uh helpful for people to realize that you're situated within that long history, um, and particularly helpful in in my family that people have been writing and painting about it for so long. 01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:36.239 Um and I think it's not just my Straitchey heritage, because obviously I have several family members who are part of the Bloomsbury group. 01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:49.599 So there's Lytton Straitsy, the biographer, his brother James, who was the first translator of Freud in the UK, so a leading psychoanalyst, his sister um Dorothy, who wrote a wonderful lesbian book called Olivia by Olivia. 01:00:49.840 --> 01:00:55.519 Um, but the generation before that, and you can see actually some of these books on the shelves behind me. 01:00:55.920 --> 01:01:03.679 Um just to let the listeners know, I'm I'm yeah, I'm interviewing interviewing you with the the backdrop of a fabulous uh library behind you. 01:01:03.760 --> 01:01:05.840 I mean, I don't know how many books is there, how many books have you got there? 01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:07.280 Oh, several thousand, I think. 01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:08.719 Yes, amazing. 01:01:09.039 --> 01:01:16.719 But they were just behind my head is a whole row of books written by John Adderton Simmons, um, whose sister married a straitchy. 01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:17.119 And J. 01:01:17.280 --> 01:01:17.440 A. 01:01:17.599 --> 01:01:20.239 Simmons is a really interesting figure in queer history. 01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:28.320 He's the first person to use the term homosexual in the English language, and he wrote a pioneering book in the late 19th century about homosexuality. 01:01:28.400 --> 01:01:33.920 He worked with a sexologist Havelock Ellis and they produced the book on what was then called inversion. 01:01:34.079 --> 01:01:45.360 But it's just um, you know, it's wonderful because you have this, as I say, a combination of both uh uh writing and painting, exploring it back into the in the 19th century and earlier. 01:01:45.519 --> 01:01:47.119 Um, so there we go. 01:01:47.599 --> 01:01:48.800 Fantastic, fantastic. 01:01:48.960 --> 01:01:57.599 So uh people are listening to this, there will be lots of people who've who do vaguely know of the Bloomsbury set, but there'll be a lot of people who have no idea at all. 01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:04.719 So for listeners who might only know Bloomsbury as a name on a map, what was the Bloomsbury set? 01:02:04.960 --> 01:02:07.599 What made it such a hotbed of sexual experimentation? 01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:15.119 Well, so this was a group of young people who came together first in about 1906. 01:02:15.599 --> 01:02:27.440 Um, and at the heart of it, there were um the two sisters, Virginia and Vanessa Stephen, who later in their life became Virginia Wolfe, the writer, and Vanessa Bell, the painter. 01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:36.239 And it just so happened that they had uh two older brothers who were at Cambridge University, uh, and their parents had died. 01:02:36.320 --> 01:02:46.400 So, unusually for the period, they lived together as a household with no older adults, and they moved to Bloomsbury in that year, to Gordon Square. 01:02:46.719 --> 01:02:58.239 And so you had two young women who were living with two young men, uh, and they the brothers invited their university friends to come home and chat to them. 01:02:58.320 --> 01:03:04.800 And we think of that as kind of normal today, because uh a woman can talk to a man, no problem. 01:03:05.199 --> 01:03:11.119 But at that date, if you're a young woman, you were never allowed to talk to a young man without being chaperoned. 01:03:12.079 --> 01:03:24.159 And so the what Virginia Wolf and Vanessa Bell describes so wonderfully is the idea of being able to have open conversations on any subject on equal terms with people of a different gender. 01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:37.039 And they vowed that they would do everything differently, that they would talk honestly about everything, and that particularly included sex, because it just so happened that most of their brother's friends were either gay or bisexual. 01:03:37.119 --> 01:03:40.480 Um, and it again, you know, Virginia Wolfe was bisexual. 01:03:40.559 --> 01:04:06.559 So, probably statistically, if you look across that that group, friendship group, who became what we would describe today as a family of choice, um bisexuality was the primary characteristic, I think, because um they all became involved in consensually non-monogamous, polyamorous relationships with people of um genders and of all genders, uh, whatever you happen to be identifying with. 01:04:06.639 --> 01:04:24.719 Obviously, at that point, the language wasn't there necessarily to give names to things or labels to things that we might know, but this was a group of people who primarily loved people for who they were, regardless to what gender or sexuality they might happen to be, feel they were constricted by. 01:04:25.760 --> 01:04:34.480 So was Bloomsbury genuinely ahead of its time in terms of this kind of thing, in terms of queer openness then, or or do we romanticize a bit about it? 01:04:34.559 --> 01:04:42.559 I mean, did did were there were there other occasions when this happened and further up further down in the history, or is this something that was genuinely ahead of its time? 01:04:43.039 --> 01:04:49.519 I'm sure uh that there were many other groupings across the world at that point, you might have been. 01:04:49.679 --> 01:05:04.239 I think what was exceptional about Bloomsbury is because they were writers and artists, they were able to record and share the way they were living, their views, what they were feeling, and also bring it to a wider audience, and in some cases to a world audience. 01:05:04.400 --> 01:05:14.719 If you think of Wolf now, for example, and if you think particularly of Wolf writing Orlando, that did reach a world audience within her lifetime. 01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:23.440 And that is a pioneering work in talking about, you know, a person who changes their gender over 400 years, um, is you know, fantastic. 01:05:23.679 --> 01:05:33.119 And so I think uh, no, not unique, but yes, pioneering and wonderful that they were able to broaden it, so bring it to such a wide audience. 01:05:33.199 --> 01:05:44.639 Um, and I think also in terms of what my uh writing has been about, in the way, as a as a group of older queer people, they were able to nurture the creativity of a younger generation. 01:05:44.719 --> 01:06:09.519 Because what was particularly remarkable after the First World War, when they were all becoming famous and wealthy, they were able to bring around them a group of younger people in their twenties who were exploring their sexuality after university and art school and found in Bloom's A place again where they could be themselves and create in the way they wanted to be, which at that time wasn't always possible because the 20s we think of it as being, you know, the jazz age. 01:06:09.679 --> 01:06:21.599 But in England at that time, there was a conservative government with a home secretary who was really repressive, clamping down, you know, things like nightclubs and uh uh indecent literature. 01:06:21.840 --> 01:06:29.280 And you could be arrested, and people were arrested for doing things, if you were a man, as suspicious as wearing wide-legged trousers. 01:06:29.360 --> 01:06:30.960 You know, that was very dodgy. 01:06:31.920 --> 01:06:32.320 You're right. 01:06:32.400 --> 01:06:35.119 I mean, it was a very difficult period in that sense. 01:06:35.599 --> 01:06:46.159 Of course, uh, when it comes to women, yes, um, it it was sort of um there was this famous thing that the Queen Victoria didn't believe that um homosexuality amongst women could exist. 01:06:46.239 --> 01:06:49.360 That's the that's the myth the thing that people always say, isn't it? 01:06:49.440 --> 01:06:52.000 That that that's the that was the f the feeling, wasn't it, around women? 01:06:52.159 --> 01:07:02.159 So it often it was often it's it's the f female sexuality, um, homosexuality, in particular bisexuality, is sort of often uh celebrated in these periods. 01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:06.480 But for pe people who for men at the time, it would have obviously been very difficult. 01:07:06.559 --> 01:07:13.199 So tell me about this this triangle then of litchant straity, John Maynard, Keynes, and Duncan Grant. 01:07:13.679 --> 01:07:14.480 Ah, yes. 01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:25.840 Well, I mean, I I think it's interesting the way uh often things get dramatized as triangles because um uh what was it, was it Dorothy Parker who said they lived in squares? 01:07:26.239 --> 01:07:30.559 Loved in triangles, and the circles comes in somewhere as well, anyway. 01:07:31.039 --> 01:07:38.239 But I think what you see across this friendship group is is just this pattern of of polyamorous relationships. 01:07:38.480 --> 01:07:50.800 And so uh bearing in mind that they stayed friends for the whole of their lives, it is inevitable almost at any point during that friendship time they may have had a sexual relationship. 01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:53.679 And sometimes it was very intense. 01:07:53.920 --> 01:08:02.159 And to be fair, you know, thinking about Lytton, Duncan, and Maynard, I mean, I don't know if you if you've seen pictures of Duncan Grant. 01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:06.000 He is one of the most beautiful people you could ever think of. 01:08:06.079 --> 01:08:08.960 I think now he would, today he would have a modeling career. 01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:12.159 I mean, he really is a stunning young man. 01:08:12.400 --> 01:08:18.159 Um, he was Lytton's first cousin, so he grew up partly in the Straitsy household. 01:08:18.319 --> 01:08:28.000 Um, and whereas uh most of the Straitschees were writers, Duncan was an artist and was a very talented artist from a young age and went to the Slade School of Art. 01:08:28.159 --> 01:08:34.319 And I think for most of the time that Duncan was living in their house, Lytton was probably in love with him because he was just so gorgeous. 01:08:34.479 --> 01:08:49.119 And then Lytton was at university with Maynard, and Maynard, of course, met Duncan through Lytton, and Lytton was not at all happy when Duncan and Maynard then had a relationship that lasted several years. 01:08:49.279 --> 01:08:54.079 But none of these were monogamous relationships, they were all consensually non-monogamous. 01:08:54.239 --> 01:08:59.680 Well, having said that, I'm sure there would have been times when Willington might have loved it to be a monogamous relationship. 01:08:59.760 --> 01:09:01.520 With with Duncan, that was just never going to happen. 01:09:01.760 --> 01:09:03.920 Well, you're just into there that there's a bit of jealousy going on. 01:09:04.319 --> 01:09:07.520 Yes, yeah, yes, which is inevitable, isn't it, really? 01:09:07.840 --> 01:09:12.079 So um Keynes and Duncan Grant were both bisexual, that's right, isn't it? 01:09:12.159 --> 01:09:13.439 And Lytton was gay, is that right? 01:09:13.600 --> 01:09:14.960 No, Biton was bisexual too. 01:09:15.279 --> 01:09:16.319 He's bisexual as well, okay. 01:09:16.479 --> 01:09:18.159 So yeah, I mean, and interestingly, Lytton. 01:09:18.399 --> 01:09:21.520 So there were two women who he loved most in his life. 01:09:21.760 --> 01:09:29.920 Only one whom he had a sexual relationship, but the two women were Virginia Wolf, to whom he proposed, but they then decided not to get married. 01:09:30.079 --> 01:09:43.520 And then his life partner, one he had he lived for from for uh from about 1916 to his death with uh Dora Carrington, the painter, uh, and Rafe Partridge, her husband. 01:09:43.600 --> 01:09:45.439 And they were a polyamorous thruple. 01:09:45.760 --> 01:09:58.000 They lived together, they were uh, you know, because they write Rafe Partridge writes a lovely poem that how Lytton was um how lucky to have three pillows to lay his head, a loving girl, a loving boy. 01:09:58.159 --> 01:10:07.439 Um Carrington, who today we would think of as non-binary and had relationships with with men and women, um, lost her virginity to Lytton. 01:10:07.760 --> 01:10:16.800 I mean, he was probably the human who she loved most in the world, but she had relationships with a panoply of different uh men and women. 01:10:17.119 --> 01:10:22.000 Um so again, where do you where do you put this on the spectrum? 01:10:22.079 --> 01:10:25.439 But no, Lytton was was absolutely the love of her life. 01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:31.520 And she could, when he died early in 1932, she killed herself because she couldn't imagine living without him. 01:10:31.680 --> 01:10:34.479 So Lytton was bi completely, yes. 01:10:34.960 --> 01:10:35.920 That's very interesting. 01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:45.199 Um, and you know, it was all at a time when, as you said before, people didn't really have the terms to say for these things, did they? 01:10:45.359 --> 01:10:49.520 So, you know, bisexuality as a term probably wasn't used at all around that time. 01:10:49.920 --> 01:10:50.880 I don't think so, no. 01:10:51.039 --> 01:10:51.279 No. 01:10:52.000 --> 01:10:54.239 Was homosexuality used as a term? 01:10:54.640 --> 01:11:03.920 Yes, yes, yeah, because it had been used since the 1890s, but people would often use things words that we would now find difficult, like inversion. 01:11:04.239 --> 01:11:05.520 Yes, yeah. 01:11:05.760 --> 01:11:10.720 So of course, people knew about Oscar Wilde by this point, so they'd heard of the story of Oscar Wilde and everything. 01:11:10.880 --> 01:11:10.960 Yes. 01:11:11.199 --> 01:11:13.920 That of course was you know technically bisexual as well, wasn't it? 01:11:14.479 --> 01:11:14.720 Yes. 01:11:14.880 --> 01:11:18.479 So although people the the gay communities tend to adopt him, don't they, most of the time. 01:11:18.640 --> 01:11:26.720 So the the the dynamics between these three then were were, as you alluded to, were to an extent, you know, quite messy in a way. 01:11:26.800 --> 01:11:26.960 Yes. 01:11:27.279 --> 01:11:33.840 But um, but also I suppose um you know quite tender and elect intellectual as well. 01:11:34.159 --> 01:11:35.039 Completely, yes. 01:11:35.199 --> 01:11:42.319 I mean, that again was so wonderful about how they all uh supported each other and each other's creativities. 01:11:42.399 --> 01:11:46.960 And of course, you know, people fell out with other and c each other and came back again. 01:11:47.199 --> 01:12:00.720 Um, but I mean there's a lovely letter um from Lytton's sister, youngest sister, who said how lucky she had felt to have grown up in such a loving circle of friends. 01:12:00.880 --> 01:12:09.439 Um, because of course she said there were the you know their the quarrels and so on, but actually ultimately everybody came together to support each other. 01:12:09.600 --> 01:12:16.239 And and the thing is it can be misinterpreted because the other thing was that they they loved to tease each other. 01:12:16.720 --> 01:12:30.560 Um, and Virginia Wolf in particular was the absolute mistress of the tease, and she loved gossip and she loved learning what everybody was up to, and she um she had this habit, particularly with the queer young men in their twenties. 01:12:30.880 --> 01:12:40.239 Um, Eddie Satford West, for example, her lover Vita's cousin, she would get him to bring his diaries round to her house and they'd read through them together, and she would talk about his relationships. 01:12:40.319 --> 01:12:43.920 But half the time she would then pass all the information on to other people as well. 01:12:44.079 --> 01:12:46.319 So people would get very offended. 01:12:46.479 --> 01:13:01.920 So if you read what they wrote, it can seem as cutting and dismissive, but actually what they're being often is ironic and teasing, and so things that get said about them isn't behind the feeling of the words that they were saying to each other. 01:13:02.159 --> 01:13:09.680 And the testament of that is that you don't remain friends for the whole of your life with people who you're absolutely furious with all the time. 01:13:10.159 --> 01:13:11.520 Yeah, that's true, that's true. 01:13:11.760 --> 01:13:18.479 Tell us you've alluded to the what Duncan Grant was like, um, but tell us a bit more about Duncan Grant, if you can. 01:13:18.800 --> 01:13:29.119 Yeah, so he was a phenomenally talented artist, and his uh his talent was recognized early on from in the moment that he studied really at art school. 01:13:29.359 --> 01:13:37.840 Um, he had his first major solo exhibition in 1920, so his big period of success was sort of between the wars, really. 01:13:38.399 --> 01:13:48.560 Um I think what is again very distinctive, obviously, when you look at his paintings now, they have such a strong homoerotic theme to them. 01:13:49.119 --> 01:14:05.840 Um and he particularly his paintings of naked men, um, and there's this wonderful exhibition at Charleston not long ago of his erotic paintings, um, where he has this wonderful, playful combination of people clothed and partly clothed in the way they intertwine. 01:14:06.399 --> 01:14:13.520 Um so uh yeah, Duncan, interesting, a conscientious objector as well. 01:14:13.680 --> 01:14:22.079 So a brave person who stood up for his principles at a time when that could have been difficult to do, and you could be prosecuted for doing so. 01:14:22.319 --> 01:14:25.600 Um and what about John uh Maynard Keynes then? 01:14:25.760 --> 01:14:32.159 Of course, very famously an economist who had an influence on uh British politics. 01:14:32.479 --> 01:14:45.199 But I uh also remember um used to um go and visit um the former uh Prime Minister Lloyd George when he was holding court in church in Surrey at his old house. 01:14:45.359 --> 01:14:51.439 Apparently, he you'd go there quite a bit and have chats to him, and um, because I've seen the uh the visitor's book. 01:14:51.840 --> 01:15:06.239 And I had a I had uh I had an interview I did a few years ago with um um basically Lloyd George's grandson, and he was showing me the visitors' book and how he used to uh hold court with people like Maynard Keynes and with Charlie Chaplin and all these other people. 01:15:06.720 --> 01:15:10.960 Um so tell us a bit about Keynes then, because obviously he was a huge figure, a big figure. 01:15:12.560 --> 01:15:19.520 Was his sexuality known widely within you know the the the upper echelons, as it were? 01:15:19.760 --> 01:15:34.479 Well, I think it would have been surprising for anybody who is as closely associated with the Bloomsbury group as Keynes was for their sexuality not to be known amongst their, certainly their inner circle and maybe their you know broader circle as well. 01:15:34.960 --> 01:15:54.960 Um, but there's a difference between um what can I say uh being known and uh doing uh exhibiting behavior that that at that point would have been prosecutable, yeah, because everybody knew that this was the case. 01:15:55.359 --> 01:16:05.760 Um and yeah, I mean he had his relationships were primarily with young men up until about 19 uh 20, I suppose. 01:16:06.000 --> 01:16:24.800 And even after he'd met his future wife, that the ballerina Lydia Lopukova, he at that point he was in a again, another consensually non-monogamous relationship with a young man called Sebastian Sprot, who was a Cambridge student, and they were in a long-term relationship from 1920 until 1925, which was the year he married Lydia. 01:16:25.119 --> 01:16:52.880 Um and so, you know, Keynes, you know, absolutely a bisexual person, um, long loving and and very successful sexual relationship with Lydia, uh, who in her own right had a wonderful career as a prima ballerina for the Ballet Russe, um, and this incredible crossover between the artistic world of Bloomsbury and the world of Diagolev, where you were having music by Stravinsky and sets by Picasso. 01:16:52.960 --> 01:16:58.720 So you were absolutely, she was embedded in an international uh modernist artistic world. 01:16:59.279 --> 01:17:05.600 And Keynes, I mean, you might think, what is this economist doing with all these artists? 01:17:05.680 --> 01:17:22.479 But that's because his friendship group, since he was a teenager, you Maynard Keynes, uh obviously a leading economist, uh, somebody who's had an impact on world history, and you might be thinking, what is this economist doing, overlapping with the world of Bloomsbury? 01:17:22.560 --> 01:17:28.239 But that's because since he was a young man, he had been a friend with writers and artists. 01:17:28.479 --> 01:17:48.159 And through his wife, Lydia Lopukova, he connected across into a broader international world of Diagolev and the Ballet Rus, uh, because she was a prima ballerina for the Russian ballet, um, and knew Picasso and Stravinsky and all the uh artists and musicians who worked with Diagolev. 01:17:48.239 --> 01:17:56.640 So you get this wonderful international crossover between through Keynes, in a way, between these English writers and artists and these international ones. 01:17:56.880 --> 01:18:06.479 Um, and uh, you know, Keynes who would had primarily relationships with men up until his marriage, then had a long and happy marriage with Lydia. 01:18:07.279 --> 01:18:08.479 Interesting, interesting. 01:18:08.640 --> 01:18:13.199 And um, I mean, obviously, it's allowed for an economist to have friends who are creative. 01:18:14.239 --> 01:18:16.079 Maybe it was creative economically, you never know. 01:18:16.319 --> 01:18:17.279 Yeah, yeah, he was. 01:18:17.439 --> 01:18:17.680 Yeah. 01:18:18.079 --> 01:18:19.039 Well, yeah, exactly. 01:18:19.199 --> 01:18:24.479 So do you think that their relationships overall then influenced their work? 01:18:24.640 --> 01:18:25.840 I'm talking about the whole group. 01:18:26.000 --> 01:18:34.079 Do you think it had an influence on their group, or was it more about companionship and desire, or do you think do you think it fed into their creativity though? 01:18:34.319 --> 01:18:40.960 Oh, I think it absolutely fed into their creativity because they were able to be who they were openly and honestly. 01:18:41.039 --> 01:18:52.479 And one of the things they valued as a group above all others was honest discussion on any topic, which again we kind of take for granted now, but was not the case then. 01:18:52.720 --> 01:19:20.000 And I think what was particularly unusual about their group was that it was an honest conversation on any topic, whether that was sex, religion, politics, money, you name it, with all genders present and all genders given equal status, because these were, I mean, if you think of the women within the group, you know, you've got Virginia Wolfe, who is widely acknowledged as one of the world's leading novelists today, writing in the English language. 01:19:20.159 --> 01:19:26.319 You've got Vanessa Bell, who is her sister, who is an equally impressive modernist artist. 01:19:26.479 --> 01:19:39.359 So, you know, two central women in the two main strands of writing and art, you have Dora Carrington, who again is a wonderful painter, uh, and again in public collections still today. 01:19:39.680 --> 01:19:46.079 Um, and you have through the but particularly through the Straitsy family, a group of leading suffrage campaigners. 01:19:46.239 --> 01:19:52.079 So people who were fighting for women's rights to have the vote and to enter the professions. 01:19:52.239 --> 01:19:56.319 I mean, one of Lytton's sisters was the principal of Newham College in Cambridge. 01:19:56.479 --> 01:20:01.039 His sister-in-law Ray Costello was the leading um historian of the suffrage movement. 01:20:01.279 --> 01:20:08.239 So these were not people who were going to be messed around with, you know, they were going to talk openly, honestly, equally. 01:20:09.439 --> 01:20:11.680 Let's talk a bit more about your family then. 01:20:11.760 --> 01:20:13.680 I mean, because you've you've mentioned a few there. 01:20:13.760 --> 01:20:18.319 Um but the wider straighty family, you know, really was a queer dynasty, wasn't it? 01:20:18.399 --> 01:20:28.399 Your family, um, yeah, Lytton's brother James was bisexual and translated Freud, Lytton's sister Dorothy was bisexual and wrote um Olivia, a lesbian classic. 01:20:28.560 --> 01:20:31.359 How aware were they of each other's sexuality? 01:20:31.600 --> 01:20:33.039 Was it openly discussed? 01:20:33.520 --> 01:20:40.800 Completely, because you know, honesty, they they had this phrase there, honesty in all sexual matters, and they really were. 01:20:40.880 --> 01:20:46.399 And I look, you look at their letters, and again, it's we're so lucky because so many of their letters are published. 01:20:46.640 --> 01:20:52.880 And I think Crikey, I don't think I'm as honest now with my friends today as they were with each other then. 01:20:53.119 --> 01:21:02.960 And maybe they felt they almost that they they felt the impulse to be more, to share more than we might do today, because it was so important to them, because it was so rare. 01:21:03.680 --> 01:21:05.279 Um, and it's really refreshing. 01:21:05.359 --> 01:21:10.960 And actually, it was one of the things that uh that really led me into writing more about them. 01:21:11.119 --> 01:21:14.880 Um I worked for many years as a curator for the National Trust. 01:21:15.119 --> 01:21:22.960 Um, and one of the houses that we looked after was Knoll in Kent, which was the home of Vita Sat for West's first cousin Eddie. 01:21:23.119 --> 01:21:31.920 And when we were uh preparing his rooms for display, we found this trunk of papers in his room that hadn't been unpacked since 1926. 01:21:32.399 --> 01:21:42.640 Um in it, he had been sharing a flat in London with another of my cousins, John Straitchey, uh, who they'd been at uh university together. 01:21:42.720 --> 01:21:51.119 Uh John Straity went on to be a Labour minister, um, and probably that were the leading Marxist writer of the early 20th century in the UK. 01:21:51.199 --> 01:21:54.560 So he was a really campaigning socialist in his case. 01:21:54.720 --> 01:21:59.520 Um, and they'd lived together in this flat in London when they were in their early 20s. 01:21:59.600 --> 01:22:04.560 And in that when they'd moved out, Eddie had just pulled all these papers into a box. 01:22:04.720 --> 01:22:19.680 And there were just all these letters that hadn't been read since the 20s, and they were just so open and honest and talking about every form of sexuality in a again, in a way that I, you know, this was just probably the year after they were at university, maybe two. 01:22:20.079 --> 01:22:30.640 Um, and I can't imagine having said some of the things in in that they were helping their friends develop their sexuality, um, off mostly bisexual. 01:22:30.800 --> 01:22:38.880 So John might be writing to a female friend who's planning to get married, but talking about the relationship she's just been having with women in 1926. 01:22:39.039 --> 01:22:40.800 Yes, a hundred years ago. 01:22:41.039 --> 01:22:41.359 Yeah. 01:22:41.680 --> 01:22:44.399 And I just thought, great, you know, lovely. 01:22:44.640 --> 01:22:46.720 Let's say more about this, you know. 01:22:46.960 --> 01:22:51.279 Compared to compared to what they were doing then and what we're doing now, we've probably gone backwards in a way. 01:22:52.399 --> 01:22:52.560 Yes. 01:22:52.800 --> 01:23:03.039 Um tell us a little bit about um Lytton's brother James and who was bisexual and and the and the relationship with and the work around around Freud, if you can. 01:23:03.439 --> 01:23:03.680 Yes. 01:23:03.840 --> 01:23:09.840 I mean it's interesting because obviously at that time Freud was, I mean, this was brand new stuff in the UK. 01:23:10.000 --> 01:23:14.640 He was it was the first time that people were experimenting with psychoanalysis. 01:23:14.800 --> 01:23:22.000 And I think probably that uh Bloomsbury were helped by the fact that several of their members were psychoanalysts. 01:23:22.079 --> 01:23:29.119 So James Strait, she was a psychoanalyst, his wife Alex Strait, she actually was analyzed by Freud in Vienna. 01:23:29.359 --> 01:23:36.159 Um Virginia Wolf's brother Adrian Stephen became a psychoanalyst, as did his wife Karen. 01:23:36.560 --> 01:23:39.760 They were all members of the British Psychoanalytical Society. 01:23:40.000 --> 01:23:47.039 Virginia Wolfe, uh, through the Hogarth Press was the first publisher of those translations of Freud in the UK. 01:23:47.199 --> 01:23:57.119 So the Bloomsbury group were right at the heart of psychoanalysis, which I'm hoping helped them understand their sexualities. 01:23:57.279 --> 01:24:14.560 Although Freud wasn't always as straightforward as you might have hoped in relation to that, because you did still have this description of sexuality, whether regardless of your gender, if you're for loving for the same sex, was still being described as inversion. 01:24:15.119 --> 01:24:18.399 And there were several members or several lovers. 01:24:18.479 --> 01:24:34.239 So, for example, Henrietta Bingham, who was um Dora Carrington's lover, uh, was being treated by a colleague of James Straity's, who sent the transcripts of their sessions to Freud in Vienna, and they were discussed in a group. 01:24:34.399 --> 01:24:45.039 And he was trying to help her get beyond what he was seeing as her that same-sex love was not something she should be doing, and he was trying essentially to cure her of it. 01:24:45.520 --> 01:24:49.520 Not something we would be considering today. 01:24:49.680 --> 01:24:49.840 Yeah. 01:24:50.399 --> 01:24:53.119 Do we know anything about Freud's sexuality as such? 01:24:53.760 --> 01:25:00.159 Um, well, I think there's quite a lot of debate about that, yes, but I'm afraid I'm not an expert. 01:25:01.439 --> 01:25:03.920 We know we I think we know quite a bit about Kinsey later on. 01:25:04.399 --> 01:25:06.319 Kinsey was probably bisexual, actually. 01:25:06.479 --> 01:25:09.760 Um, but um, okay, going back to going back to your your family. 01:25:09.840 --> 01:25:14.159 Um Dorothy's Olivia, of course, is such an important lesbian text. 01:25:14.479 --> 01:25:17.920 How was it received in the family at the time? 01:25:18.640 --> 01:25:22.399 Well, I think she delayed publishing it for for quite a while. 01:25:22.560 --> 01:25:25.039 Um, and of course, it was published by the Hogarth Press. 01:25:25.119 --> 01:25:36.399 So, again, you know, I think how lucky they were to have an in-house publisher, essentially, you know, because you know, thanks to Virginia and Leonard Wolfe, so many of their works could be published. 01:25:36.560 --> 01:25:45.119 Uh, and I think she probably was nervous to begin with, uh, but absolutely not by the time it was published. 01:25:45.199 --> 01:26:01.439 And I think you've got to remember, in terms of the sort of publicly campaigning role, so many members of the Bloomsby group came and offered to be witnesses in defense of Radcliffe Hall at the 1928 trial for obscenity of her of her book, Well of Loneliness. 01:26:01.600 --> 01:26:05.680 Um, so not only members of the Stretch Family, but Virginia Woolf, for example. 01:26:05.840 --> 01:26:10.079 Um, many of them went along uh to watch the trial happening. 01:26:10.319 --> 01:26:18.239 So this was a group who were absolutely defending and promoting female sexuality in as much as they would be doing male. 01:26:19.439 --> 01:26:26.319 Now, Virginia Wolf, let's talk a little bit about Virginia Wolf, because of course she is uh seen as a bisexual icon. 01:26:26.560 --> 01:26:34.720 Yeah um but but but sometimes not seen in that way, sometimes, you know, um taken by other communities to be another icon. 01:26:35.920 --> 01:26:40.399 Tell us a little bit about you know convince us about her bisexuality if you can. 01:26:41.439 --> 01:26:48.720 Well, I think you know, in a way, Virginia's uh sexuality is so similar to her broader friendship group. 01:26:48.880 --> 01:27:04.000 Um, many of them, you know, I'm sort of thinking, again, statistically, typically, might have uh in the early parts of their lives been looking more at same-sex love, potentially, whether male or female, and Virginia would have fallen into that category. 01:27:04.319 --> 01:27:10.159 Uh, but then a little bit later in their lives, experimenting with other genders. 01:27:10.319 --> 01:27:19.039 And she had a really, you know, lifelong and loving relationship with her husband that was sexual, that was fulfilling. 01:27:19.279 --> 01:27:27.119 Um, she had similarly um fulfilling sexual relationships with women, I mean, most notably with Vita. 01:27:27.520 --> 01:27:32.159 So I I can't think of a more uh clearer definition of being bisexual. 01:27:32.239 --> 01:27:36.960 So I I kind of don't know why why you would want to think anything else. 01:27:37.039 --> 01:27:37.840 I don't know. 01:27:38.159 --> 01:27:45.920 No, no, I absolutely agree, but it what what we what we find with bisexuality is that Yes it it it's just airbrushed all the time. 01:27:46.079 --> 01:27:46.479 You know what I mean? 01:27:46.880 --> 01:27:48.479 Yes that's what happens constantly. 01:27:49.680 --> 01:27:55.600 Nobody wants to nobody want yeah, everyone wants to come to it's like with Oscar Wilde, it's like everyone sees him as a gay icon. 01:27:55.680 --> 01:27:59.840 Well, clearly he had a he had a wife and he had kids and all the rest of it, you know. 01:28:00.079 --> 01:28:02.800 And so um it's just that binary thing, isn't it? 01:28:02.880 --> 01:28:05.840 Everyone wants to it needs to be one thing or the other kind of thing. 01:28:06.159 --> 01:28:12.640 So um the interesting thing and and one of the reasons we we decided to do this interview, of course, yeah there's a bit of a hook here, isn't there? 01:28:12.800 --> 01:28:21.680 No, we're talking about all this, but actually there's a new play that's come out about uh John Maynard Keynes by James Graham that's coming out in September. 01:28:21.920 --> 01:28:23.680 Um can you tell us a bit about that? 01:28:24.000 --> 01:28:30.319 Well, again, I think it's lovely and exciting that um Blimps figures remain relevant right now. 01:28:30.399 --> 01:28:40.079 And it's hard to think of anyone who's more relevant than Keynes, bearing in mind the economic conditions of the world and the kind of constantly changing situation. 01:28:40.640 --> 01:28:51.359 Um and so you know Keynes's uh theories remain as relevant today as when as they were when he was sort of writing in the immediately after the first world war. 01:28:51.760 --> 01:28:56.560 Uh and they helped the world post the 2008 collapse. 01:28:56.720 --> 01:29:01.680 And I hope we're not heading for another collapse right now, but if we are, then they're going to again. 01:29:01.840 --> 01:29:25.199 Um, so it feels really timely that James Graham should be exploring Keynes, both his economic theories, uh his way of living, and really I think looking at the the impact of whether his uh his way of living and his friendship with the Bloomsbury group more broadly um help to foster that exciting creativity in in all areas. 01:29:25.600 --> 01:29:25.840 Yeah. 01:29:26.239 --> 01:29:26.720 Are you confident? 01:29:26.880 --> 01:29:34.720 I mean, at least you know how much you know about what the play is going to contain, but are you confident that it's gonna have a fair amount in there about his bisexuality? 01:29:35.119 --> 01:29:39.920 Oh, yes, because I mean I think it's it is talking about him and his life within that broader circle. 01:29:40.000 --> 01:29:43.600 And so there are a whole range of other Bloomsbury characters who are going to feature within it. 01:29:43.760 --> 01:29:51.039 Lytton Straity, Virginia Wolf, Dora Carrington, Duncan Grant, so and Lydia, obviously. 01:29:51.199 --> 01:29:53.279 So it's going to explore his marriage. 01:29:53.600 --> 01:30:47.520 I mean, I'm assuming it'll explore his relationship with Duncan Grant and with Lytton, because I don't think you you you couldn't not within that, even if the focus, I think, will be about the economic side of things and his role in this unusual dichotomy of here is a man who spends, you know, his working life uh in academia in Cambridge or at the Treasury, and as you say, going off to see Lloyd George and and others, but then the other side of his life is with all his Bloomsbury friends, having these extraordinary parties where everybody is dressing as a different gender and where they are performing, and and that lovely side of you know, with Lydia, as well as uh painters and writers, you have dance in there, and of course, Lydio is being played by one of the leading ballerinas in the play. 01:30:47.600 --> 01:30:52.479 So I'm hoping that there will be um dance within it. 01:30:53.199 --> 01:30:54.640 Lady Devil's advocate now. 01:30:54.720 --> 01:30:59.119 Um, obviously, Keynes is known as an economist, and that's the most important thing about his life. 01:30:59.520 --> 01:31:01.920 He was a huge figure in that sense. 01:31:02.319 --> 01:31:05.439 Um very little is known or talked about around his bisexuality. 01:31:05.680 --> 01:31:10.560 Very get now and again you get a mention of it, very little mention at all. 01:31:10.800 --> 01:31:17.600 Why why is it important that we that we know about these people and their sexuality at that particular time? 01:31:18.159 --> 01:31:28.079 Well, I think in terms of um queer heritage and queer understanding and the role of queer people within history and the idea that well, yeah, queer people have always been there. 01:31:28.399 --> 01:31:32.720 Contrary to some kind of, you know, some some groups who might say the world is changing. 01:31:32.880 --> 01:31:46.479 Absolutely, it's not changing, it's just we're sharing more, and also uh celebrating um uh queer icons, you know, the fact that people who have had the done these wonderful things throughout time. 01:31:46.960 --> 01:32:15.119 The the aspect of openness and sharing and having the continuity of heritage, but there's also the the thinking, particularly in the context of the Bloomsbury group, of how at that time, a hundred years ago, the ability to be totally open in your private life helped and boosted you, enabled you potentially to be more creative in your public life because you were not having to hide part of who you were to your closest friendship group. 01:32:15.199 --> 01:32:20.000 And that feels important to me for a whole range of things, not least mental health. 01:32:20.399 --> 01:32:28.880 Now, as well as this uh play that's coming out, there's going to be a Tate retrospective on Duncan Grant and Vanessa Bell, I got that later this year. 01:32:29.039 --> 01:32:30.880 Tell us a bit, tell us a bit about what you know about that. 01:32:31.199 --> 01:32:33.359 So very excited about that. 01:32:33.520 --> 01:32:47.920 Um, so uh Duncan Grant and Vanessa Bell, as well as living in London, lived in this amazing house, Charleston in Sussex, which was really a physical express expression of their art because every surface in the house is painted. 01:32:48.159 --> 01:32:50.000 They both had studios in the house. 01:32:50.239 --> 01:32:59.840 Maynard Keynes had a room in the house, rented a room upstairs, and he wrote his first major book, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, in that room in 1919. 01:33:00.000 --> 01:33:04.239 So again, it's another amazingly creative place. 01:33:04.720 --> 01:33:08.960 Um, the studio, Duncan Grant studio there is going to be conserved. 01:33:09.039 --> 01:33:22.239 So the whole of the contents of his studio is coming to the table in London, and they're going to have a major exhibition of Grant and Bell's work at the same time, which will be the first sort of major joint exhibition focusing on them. 01:33:22.479 --> 01:33:42.399 And again, um here we are, you know, two bisexual artists who lived in uh polyamorous relationships with uh a changing sequence of people over time um at Charleston, and a lovely way to uh you know explore both their art and their life. 01:33:42.800 --> 01:33:48.960 Before we go any further, the the just remind me that in terms of the play, do we know do we know when where that's going to be on? 01:33:49.039 --> 01:33:53.760 And do we know it is gonna be in London or is in London in September? 01:33:53.920 --> 01:33:54.239 Yes. 01:33:54.560 --> 01:33:54.720 Okay. 01:33:55.119 --> 01:34:00.560 Okay, so the big question then, um, and I'd love to talk to you all day on this because it's fascinating. 01:34:00.800 --> 01:34:04.720 But what does Bloomsbury tell us about bisexuality today? 01:34:04.800 --> 01:34:12.800 When when you look at Bloomsbury's bisexuality, the fluidity, the experimentation, uh what feels most modern about it? 01:34:12.880 --> 01:34:21.359 I mean, we you hinted at this at the beginning, actually, about how actually all these people were enjoying themselves and all the rest of it, and it wasn't a big deal, and everyone was communicating, etc. 01:34:21.760 --> 01:34:26.079 And you feel that actually that should be we should be talking about that in 2026 in a way. 01:34:26.239 --> 01:34:32.560 But our experience doing bisexual brunch is that actually we haven't moved on much at all, actually. 01:34:32.640 --> 01:34:36.640 And perhaps actually they were more enlightened then than people are now. 01:34:37.039 --> 01:34:40.000 Well, I'd kind of like to hope that we'd moved on. 01:34:40.239 --> 01:34:49.840 I think that um certainly um amongst young people in if they're in their 20s in the UK now, it feels like that they have moved on. 01:34:50.079 --> 01:34:55.279 Whether the generations above that have moved on yet, I'm not so sure. 01:34:55.520 --> 01:35:07.600 Um, and I think you know that you still see some of those those difficult attitudes expressed, probably most notably in in what is still left of the print media, maybe. 01:35:07.920 --> 01:35:10.800 I don't know if so much elsewhere. 01:35:11.119 --> 01:35:35.439 Um, but it it you know, biphobia, transphobia, uh, homophobia, all of that still exists, and you only have to look at the um, you know, the the surveys done, particularly about the mental health impact of those of young people at school and university now, to know the horrible damaging impact that that can have. 01:35:35.680 --> 01:35:38.000 So we could learn we could learn a lot from the set. 01:35:38.239 --> 01:36:03.119 I mean, yeah, the thing I would say is just reflecting back what we uh discover on bisexual brunches, is that um yeah, uh more and more people are ticking the B box, as it were, for admitting being bisexual, that they've they've got bisexual tendencies, whether it's be younger people or older people, they're all they're all you know, more and more people are coming out on and service and things, but so many people don't know anybody else who is bisexual. 01:36:03.439 --> 01:36:14.720 You find that it's very people who are bisexual are quite isolated either in relationships because they can't admit it to their partners who don't necessarily understand because there's lots of mythology myths about around being bisexual, etc. 01:36:15.119 --> 01:36:23.439 Um, so it it we because of this binary world that we live in, which has been made worse in a way by by technology and social media and all the rest of it. 01:36:23.600 --> 01:36:40.800 Um by people are struggling to um you know be heard, uh they're they're erased, often you find, you know, you'll get TV programs that are covering bisexuality a bit more, uh, but they don't go out of the way to mention the by mention the word bisexual. 01:36:41.039 --> 01:36:43.760 You know, so it's sort of it's it's a weird situation. 01:36:43.920 --> 01:36:50.159 So um I wonder if in a way, this is me just you know coming out of the something off the top of my head. 01:36:50.319 --> 01:37:05.279 I wonder if in a way the fact that you didn't have um you know all the world looking at you through social media and all the other things back, you know, 100 years ago, and people's lives, although there were circles of friends and whatever, and people didn't know each other and word of mouth. 01:37:05.439 --> 01:37:17.600 But wonder wonder whether having that kind of um that lack of of massive meet mass media or social media actually helped people to be a little bit more authentic in a way. 01:37:18.239 --> 01:37:25.279 Yeah, because you were not automatically displaying what you do you were doing to a massive audience, it was within your closer friendship group. 01:37:25.520 --> 01:37:26.479 So, yes, maybe. 01:37:26.880 --> 01:37:27.680 Yeah, exactly. 01:37:27.760 --> 01:37:39.920 And and and you know, it's and it enabled people who were you know intelligent and whatever to be able to communicate with each other and and to sort of uh and to live their lives without anybody really interfering with them in that sense, do you know what I mean? 01:37:40.079 --> 01:37:46.800 So which I think is which which you know I think um um today everyone's everyone's trying to keep up with something, aren't they? 01:37:46.880 --> 01:37:58.319 They're all trying to you know, I think there's a pressure, isn't there, for people to and one of the things that comes out in the interviews that we do is that a lot of bisexual people feel pressured to to go one way or the other. 01:37:58.479 --> 01:38:07.760 So if they grow up in straight circles or they've been around gay circles at certain points, they feel as though oh, they need to conform to something, you know what I mean? 01:38:07.840 --> 01:38:10.000 Yeah, uh, which is quite which is quite sad, really. 01:38:10.239 --> 01:38:20.239 So so you get people I've it was one couple I interviewed um who had got together through a uh polyamorous situation, and they ended up in a relate in a relationship. 01:38:20.319 --> 01:38:25.520 They they they they they weren't polyamorous uh in the end, they just decided they wanted to be together. 01:38:25.600 --> 01:38:36.319 Um, and the reason they wanted to be together, mainly both of them admitted, was the fact that they were both a man, man and woman, was that they felt as though that was the the right environment to bring up children. 01:38:36.399 --> 01:38:44.960 Yeah, they felt as though that was the the pressure was on the on them from their family, that that's what they needed to do, which I found quite quite sad in away, you know. 01:38:45.119 --> 01:38:49.760 So um, so yeah, so the the pressures are still the pressures are there of a modern life, aren't they? 01:38:50.720 --> 01:38:53.199 My dad always says the world turns, Ash, the world turns. 01:38:53.279 --> 01:38:55.039 So that's probably that's probably what it is. 01:38:55.199 --> 01:38:57.600 Anyway, so it's it's been fascinating talking to you. 01:38:57.760 --> 01:39:05.600 If you had to pick then one Bloomsbury figure whose bisexuality deserves more attention, you mentioned quite a lot here. 01:39:06.000 --> 01:39:10.239 And you mentioned Duncan Gratz, who sounds fascinating to all of us. 01:39:10.399 --> 01:39:14.239 Um, is there one in particular you think it'd be nice to do more on? 01:39:14.399 --> 01:39:24.399 I mean, uh, we're we're this year we're having a focus on several of them, but you know, is is there somebody out there that really there needs to be much more much more interest, um, much more talked about? 01:39:24.640 --> 01:39:29.439 Well, I I think actually almost it's it's not necessarily picking out an individual. 01:39:29.520 --> 01:39:33.439 And of course, with family bias, I might well say, oh, pick listen, you know. 01:39:33.920 --> 01:39:34.319 Of course. 01:39:34.880 --> 01:39:50.640 Uh the but more the the celebration of the bisexuality of Bloomsbury, because I think people do try and put them all in little categories, and depending how you feel about that, you might feel differently about each. 01:39:50.800 --> 01:39:57.039 But actually, it's a much broader thing, and surely that is something to celebrate in itself. 01:39:57.279 --> 01:39:58.000 Yeah, absolutely. 01:39:58.720 --> 01:40:08.800 And and and it would be lovely to see that being, and I hope that through this play and this exhibition, at least that conversation will start a bit more than it has already. 01:40:09.119 --> 01:40:19.279 There has been um celebrations in the past, and I I remember there's been occasionally there's been obviously there's been books, there's been TV programmes uh occasionally here and there, but it but it's not been consistent, has it? 01:40:19.359 --> 01:40:24.880 It's sort of it it's in recent years that period has been forgotten about a little bit, hasn't it? 01:40:25.039 --> 01:40:43.279 You know, I think it is no, it's not so much that Bloomsbury is forgotten because it never is, but the fact that people want to say, you know, might want to say, well, you know, Keynes is a is a he's a a gay man and and that has an an impact on his work without saying actually he's a bisexual man. 01:40:44.239 --> 01:40:44.960 Do you see what I mean? 01:40:45.039 --> 01:40:50.159 There's a difference because people bring attitudes depending on how they want to define somebody. 01:40:50.800 --> 01:40:52.479 This is a perennial question on this show. 01:40:53.039 --> 01:40:54.319 Why do you think people do that? 01:40:54.479 --> 01:41:01.279 Why why do you think personally that there's this this uh raising of the the word? 01:41:02.319 --> 01:41:06.640 I think it's th different things triggered different generations, don't they? 01:41:06.960 --> 01:41:15.760 And there was a a phase, particularly in the 1950s, um, of what was called Bloomsbury bashing, even back then. 01:41:16.079 --> 01:41:21.760 And at that point it was bashing because of the feeling of homophobia primarily. 01:41:22.319 --> 01:41:33.840 Um and it couldn't be directly named because at that point it was still illegal, but a lot of what was being written was specifically with that feeling behind it, and that has you know carried on. 01:41:34.560 --> 01:41:36.640 Yeah, it's it's it's it's intriguing, isn't it? 01:41:36.800 --> 01:41:57.680 How uh you know, I I just I just uh we find it bizarre how um it's constantly I mean I find I mentioned just now about the fact that we've got we've got several of our regular TV series, soap operas at the moment, have got quite blatant bisexual characters in them, and there's lots of bisexuality going on. 01:41:57.760 --> 01:42:00.479 Yes, but they never mention the word. 01:42:00.640 --> 01:42:05.520 No, no, just never gets mentioned, and it's like why why do they not get mentioned? 01:42:05.600 --> 01:42:06.640 What's the reason for that? 01:42:06.800 --> 01:42:16.720 And also in some of them, you get an you get, like for example, coronation, one of the main characters, Carla, who is for years and years and years been seen a bit of a man-eater, and then suddenly changes a relationship with a woman. 01:42:17.039 --> 01:42:20.960 And the the audience that the the loyal audience is saying that's ridiculous. 01:42:21.039 --> 01:42:25.600 She she's she's she's never she there's no sign of her being and turning into a lesbian. 01:42:25.680 --> 01:42:29.600 It's like and nobody says, Well, actually, she might be bisexual, you know what I mean? 01:42:29.680 --> 01:42:31.680 It's it just doesn't get mentioned, you know. 01:42:31.760 --> 01:42:40.880 And of course, for a lot of people who are bisexual, um coming out later in life and and realizing you've got another side to you is is often the way, you know what I mean? 01:42:40.960 --> 01:42:43.199 But it doesn't get doesn't get talked about in the show. 01:42:43.279 --> 01:42:50.640 So uh well I'm I constantly wish for a world beyond the binary, whether it's in regarding sexuality or gender. 01:42:50.720 --> 01:42:52.159 Let's just go beyond it. 01:42:52.560 --> 01:42:54.159 Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. 01:42:54.319 --> 01:42:55.199 Okay, that's fantastic. 01:42:55.359 --> 01:43:05.039 So just bringing back things back to to you, um, because we've we focused a lot on the the people, your your relatives and all the rest of it in that period. 01:43:05.199 --> 01:43:05.920 What about you then? 01:43:06.000 --> 01:43:07.600 What are you what are you up to at the moment? 01:43:07.760 --> 01:43:09.920 What what's what what projects have you got on? 01:43:10.000 --> 01:43:11.119 What things are you focusing on? 01:43:11.680 --> 01:43:16.000 Yeah, so I'm in the middle of a book on Virginia Wolf at the moment. 01:43:16.239 --> 01:43:26.720 Um, so I'm taking 12 of her objects and looking at the relationship with the person who gave it to her and their their life at that time, both hers and theirs. 01:43:26.960 --> 01:43:36.800 And my first object is the object that uh Dora Carrington gave to Wolf just after Little Straitsy's death, which Wolf kept on her desk for the rest of her life. 01:43:36.960 --> 01:43:42.560 So there's these lovely stories that we've on through, and I was hoping we'll be ready next year. 01:43:42.800 --> 01:43:44.159 So you've got a new book coming up. 01:43:44.239 --> 01:43:44.399 Yes. 01:43:44.640 --> 01:43:46.880 You've had one out fairly recently. 01:43:46.960 --> 01:43:47.920 Tell us about that as well. 01:43:48.239 --> 01:44:05.920 Yeah, so that is called Young Bloomsbury, a new queer history, and that celebrates the uh queer history of the bloomsy group in the 1920s and looked at the way that that group of older writers nurtured a new generation of bright young things and helped them be the people they wanted to be, writers and artists themselves. 01:44:06.079 --> 01:44:10.479 And again, it's this it's celebration of sexuality a hundred years ago. 01:44:10.880 --> 01:44:15.279 Nino Strachey, thank you very much indeed uh for joining us on Bisexual Brunch. 01:44:15.359 --> 01:44:18.560 Hopefully, we'll get to talk to you again at some point in the future. 01:44:18.720 --> 01:44:32.560 And and just a reminder uh that uh Nino was mentioning there uh about the new play that's coming out about John Maynard Keynes, uh, just to let you know that um it is going to be on at the Theatre Royal Haymarket. 01:44:32.640 --> 01:44:39.840 It's called The Standard of Living, and it's on from the 21st of September to the 12th of December this year. 01:44:44.399 --> 01:44:48.000 You're listening to the Bisexual Brunch Podcast. 01:44:48.720 --> 01:44:58.239 Bisexual Brunch was recently named the top bisexual podcast in the world by Feed Spot, but the show relies on dedicated hard work and receives no funding. 01:44:58.399 --> 01:45:05.520 If you like to sponsor the show or know someone who might be interested, drop us a line at info at maidenmanager.tv. 01:45:05.680 --> 01:45:14.159 Alternatively, you can drop us a regular or one-off donation at buymeacoffee.com forward slash info fifty-nine. 01:45:14.239 --> 01:45:19.039 That's buymeacoffee.com forward slash info fifty-nine. 01:45:19.279 --> 01:45:24.720 Every little helps to keep us being your by voice and by friend around the world. 01:45:24.960 --> 01:45:38.880 And now we return to the topic we started this edition of Bisexual Bridge off with, which was uh all about how bisexual people throughout their lives tend to spend a lot of time questioning themselves, questioning their bisexuality. 01:45:39.119 --> 01:45:40.800 So, my name is Erik Andersson. 01:45:41.039 --> 01:45:48.239 I am a clinical psychologist and I'm a professor in clinical psychology at Karolinska Institutet in Sweden. 01:45:48.319 --> 01:46:06.800 So I have done a lot of research in obsessive compulsive disorder, uh, OCD, and one of my speciality is what you call taboo OCD, that is intrusive thoughts about various taboo themes, so to speak. 01:46:07.119 --> 01:46:10.720 Eric, thank you very much indeed for joining us on the show. 01:46:10.880 --> 01:46:11.760 Uh, where are you based? 01:46:11.840 --> 01:46:14.720 Where about what's where about someone talking to you from today? 01:46:15.119 --> 01:46:19.600 So I am in uh Stockholm, uh, where I work clinically. 01:46:19.680 --> 01:46:22.000 I live here and I do research here. 01:46:22.319 --> 01:46:22.880 Fantastic. 01:46:22.960 --> 01:46:23.760 Good stuff, good stuff. 01:46:23.840 --> 01:46:24.640 Great to talk to you. 01:46:24.800 --> 01:46:26.319 So, bisexuality. 01:46:26.399 --> 01:46:31.039 Um, as somebody who is bi, and I've had an easy process into it really. 01:46:31.279 --> 01:46:43.039 I started off, um, spent most of my early young years uh dating men, then realized actually I was also interested in women as well, didn't do masses about it, but was pretty comfortable about it. 01:46:43.119 --> 01:46:47.039 And my partner, a male partner, um, has always been quite happy about it. 01:46:47.119 --> 01:46:49.439 And not so it's not really been an issue for me. 01:46:49.680 --> 01:47:17.680 But the more and more people I meet who are bisexual, they talk to me about, particularly those who are out, you know, in the early, early days, or even people actually who are much older who've you know um settled into a straight or gay relationship, um, they spend a lot of their time literally questioning who they are, what their identity is, and and trying to work out well, do I identify, do I fit into this, this bisexual um you know, model or whatever it is? 01:47:17.840 --> 01:47:19.119 Uh, because I'm not sure. 01:47:19.279 --> 01:47:23.359 I've not I've not had sex with a man for so many years, I've not had sex with a woman for so many years. 01:47:23.439 --> 01:47:27.279 Does that actually really mean I'm I'm just great or I'm gay or whatever? 01:47:27.439 --> 01:47:34.720 Tell us a little bit about this this issue and why it becomes so I suppose just all-encompassing for people. 01:47:34.800 --> 01:47:40.800 And there are a lot of people who really do talk about this being something which is on their mind constantly in many ways. 01:47:41.039 --> 01:47:54.880 Yeah, so I have met uh a lot of patients who describe very similar sort of um uh loops in their head, uh that is doubts whether I like my partner or not. 01:47:55.039 --> 01:48:02.159 Am I homosexual, or uh or am I bisexual, or what is my sexual preference in general? 01:48:02.399 --> 01:48:06.880 So um this is not an unkommon theme. 01:48:07.119 --> 01:48:34.079 Um so uh I think that you contrasted this quite nicely that you described yourself, and there are basically two ways you you can you can um sort of interpret or or or um sort of um deal with your thoughts. 01:48:34.319 --> 01:48:53.920 One way could be to just accept that okay, I might I might have a preference for men and women, or I may not, or I have that uh during some parts of my life and and some parts I am not, and then you just leave the thought, you don't go into the discussion with the thought. 01:48:54.399 --> 01:49:03.920 Whereas the other strategy here would be to find like the perfect way, what kind of person am I? 01:49:04.079 --> 01:49:10.319 And you start to discuss with your thoughts am I really attractive to this uh person or not? 01:49:10.560 --> 01:49:16.079 Am I homosexual or am I bisexual or am I X, Y, and Z. 01:49:16.800 --> 01:49:22.319 So I think that what you're highlighting here is there there are two different strategies. 01:49:22.479 --> 01:49:30.479 One is basically just to leave the thoughts on their own, and you don't care, you don't provide the thoughts with so much attention. 01:49:31.199 --> 01:49:38.640 Or you can just, or you can start to discuss with your fought, and that often becomes very problematic for people. 01:49:38.880 --> 01:49:42.399 They start to loop their thoughts over and over again. 01:49:42.560 --> 01:50:11.520 And so, and I think that many people try to find like the one answer: am I category A, B, or C, and and that also becomes your worst enemy basically, because A lot of questions are not like you some some things you cannot really answer with thoughts. 01:50:11.840 --> 01:50:14.079 You just have to wait and see. 01:50:15.439 --> 01:50:17.359 Well, well, yeah, it's about feelings, isn't it? 01:50:18.159 --> 01:50:19.840 And we're all human beings in that sense. 01:50:20.000 --> 01:50:25.439 Um, before we came uh on air, you and I were talking a little bit about this, and you mentioned the word taboo. 01:50:25.600 --> 01:50:33.359 And I think that the issue with bisexuality is bizarrely because you know you would think by now in 2026 we've moved on from this. 01:50:33.520 --> 01:50:43.359 But uh, even in countries like Sweden, which I know is very liberal-minded and Norway and Denmark and whatever, and even in the UK, which is a pretty liberal-minded country, the word bisexual isn't mentioned a great deal. 01:50:43.520 --> 01:50:56.560 Bisexuality doesn't get talked about, so you know, it's not necessarily necessarily a taboo like it used to be, but I find when I reveal to somebody I'm bisexual, I get 20 questions about what do you mean? 01:50:56.720 --> 01:50:57.199 What does that mean? 01:50:57.279 --> 01:51:00.000 What does it you know that people don't actually understand it? 01:51:00.159 --> 01:51:09.119 So I suppose what I'm trying to say is the whole thing of biurasia, which is out there and the under misleading myths about bisexuality don't help matters, do they? 01:51:09.680 --> 01:51:21.199 No, they don't, and I it might be also that bisexual is like um it's not one thing, it's it's uh people tend to like categories. 01:51:21.520 --> 01:51:25.359 Are you uh uh attracted to a, b or c? 01:51:25.920 --> 01:51:34.880 And uh and bisexuality is by definition that that it's fluent, it's it's not a, b or c necessarily. 01:51:35.439 --> 01:51:46.319 Um uh so I agree that it it's it's a sort of a taboo, it's not spoken uh a lot of. 01:51:46.640 --> 01:51:56.720 Uh it's it's not uh it's not taboo in the sense that it's I mean it's it's uh well we're not in the 18th century anymore. 01:51:56.960 --> 01:51:57.840 Yeah, no, absolutely. 01:51:58.000 --> 01:52:20.720 No, it's not it's not taboo in that sense, but I sometimes think to myself, we've had a lot of issues here in the UK, and I'm sure you have in Scandinavia and certainly Merekros and whatever in recent times around trans issues, and and trans has been misinterpreted and things have been miscommunicated, and a lot of the trans community are getting a lot of hatred now and all the rest of it, which is really sad. 01:52:21.039 --> 01:52:32.880 Um, but I often think to myself, if if if people dealt a bit, you know, dug a bit further in terms of what bisexuality means and how much of it is out there, because it's actually very prevalent. 01:52:32.960 --> 01:52:42.000 There are lots of people who are bisexual, which we don't really put numbers on, but there are probably more bisexual people than there are gay or straight, well, not straight, but certainly gay people. 01:52:42.159 --> 01:52:53.680 Um, yeah, I wonder if if it if it became if bisexuality became a threat, as in it sounded like everyone, every other person is now bisexual or whatever, then maybe it may become even more of a taboo again. 01:52:53.760 --> 01:52:54.399 You know what I mean? 01:52:54.479 --> 01:52:56.399 So that's my that's my that's what I'm thinking. 01:52:56.560 --> 01:53:18.239 That it, you know, it it's people, and I suppose for a lot of people as well who are bi who are struggling with this thing of not knowing how you know, thinking they need to categorize themselves because they're not hearing stories about fluidity, they're not hearing stories about you know people changing throughout their lives and the fact that sexuality alters and all the rest of it. 01:53:18.399 --> 01:53:33.199 They're not hearing that, so they feel compelled that they've got to nail the their their um sexuality to some kind of mast and say I'm this or that, and that they haven't sort of they haven't arrived really until they've done that. 01:53:33.439 --> 01:53:34.159 You know what I mean? 01:53:34.479 --> 01:53:40.800 And it must be, I mean, you work with lots of different people, presumably this is make makes a lot of people very unhappy. 01:53:41.359 --> 01:53:42.319 It does. 01:53:42.479 --> 01:54:08.880 Um, so um a taboo theme in in uh is generally uh some sort of um threat to the moral or something something deviant to to the norms in society, and I think that not being one category is sort of interpreted as a threat because it's it's fluent, as you say. 01:54:09.520 --> 01:54:14.399 It's hard to to like put one kategory number on it. 01:54:15.039 --> 01:55:00.479 And and if that is the case and it feels a bit like it feels like uh some sort of norm breaking, even if I mean it's super common, but it's still a sort of like a societal norm-breaking that you don't belong to category A, B, or, or, or uh whatever, it becomes a taboo theme, even if this would be like super prevalent, even if it if it would be more prevalent than heterosexuality, I think it would still be some sort of taboo theme because it's it's in the nature, it's hard to to uh put one uh category on it. 01:55:00.800 --> 01:55:04.800 Why do you think it is that society uh loves binaries so much? 01:55:05.439 --> 01:55:10.319 It's that that it finds it hard to deal with things, and this is not just we're not just talking about sexuality here. 01:55:10.399 --> 01:55:11.840 Oh, we're talking about all sorts of things. 01:55:12.000 --> 01:55:15.680 Society sounds sounds finds nuance quite difficult, doesn't it? 01:55:16.079 --> 01:55:16.720 Yes. 01:55:17.119 --> 01:55:20.399 I have thought a lot about this. 01:55:20.720 --> 01:55:53.520 Um so what what I think that so I I will speculate on this, uh, but I think that um we humans like I mean having categories is one way to grasp the world, it's a way to it's a way to make the the world um more predictable and easy to grasp if the okay so this fruit belongs to category A and this vegetable belong belongs to category B. 01:55:53.680 --> 01:56:03.199 So I think it's you you have to acknowledge that it it's categorizing, is it's a way of it's a basic function of human information processing. 01:56:04.399 --> 01:56:14.800 But I also wonder now I'm really speculating that uh maybe this is also quite reinforced in our society. 01:56:15.760 --> 01:56:19.359 Um so, me personally, I live in in Sweden. 01:56:19.600 --> 01:56:25.359 It we call it we we we basically call Sweden an engineering uh country. 01:56:25.520 --> 01:56:34.000 We have a lot of engineers and a long tradition of engineering, and and categorizing is a basic function of engineering. 01:56:34.159 --> 01:56:44.000 I'm thinking like the modern society wants categories and we we work with data, we work with risk and categories, and we find risk groups A, B, and C and sort of. 01:56:44.479 --> 01:57:00.640 So it might also be that this is not just like a basic human fundamental information processing thing, it's it it is also reinforced by the society that we we want to have categories A, B, and C because that is the way society works. 01:57:00.720 --> 01:57:08.399 That if we find a category that is uh have a high risk of something, then we can do something about it. 01:57:08.720 --> 01:57:14.880 It is probably also reinforced by the society, this sort of binary thinking that you were talking about. 01:57:15.199 --> 01:57:21.920 Yeah, well, the the tech revolution really that's all about it's all about systems and processes and and binaries, isn't it? 01:57:22.000 --> 01:57:22.079 Really? 01:57:22.239 --> 01:57:24.479 That's all it that's it's all set up to do that, really. 01:57:24.640 --> 01:57:26.399 And and it doesn't like nuance, you know. 01:57:26.479 --> 01:57:37.680 Even when it comes to, you know, nowadays, you know, here in the UK, when you ring your doctor, everything, you know, it's it's it there's it's a yes or no answer when actually sometimes you've got a health issue, it's not a yes or no answer. 01:57:37.760 --> 01:57:38.399 You know what I mean? 01:57:38.560 --> 01:57:41.039 So it's something which is much more complicated than that. 01:57:41.119 --> 01:57:42.319 So it's quite interesting. 01:57:42.399 --> 01:57:56.479 So, what would you say to I mean, well, first of all, what's your experience in Sweden of people going through these situations, this this extreme OCD thing of questioning all the time? 01:57:56.720 --> 01:58:09.039 Um, and and how are people, do you think people who I say bisexual people or people generally who've got an issue with their sexuality, do you think they're getting do you think they're getting the support they need, or do you think it's something where there's a bit of a gap? 01:58:09.520 --> 01:58:30.640 This is a really interesting question because I met a lot of uh uh people uh in the clinic who well they do have jobs, they they might have a partner, they are well functioning, but then they just start looping and they become they are really uh stuck, like really, really stuck. 01:58:30.720 --> 01:58:38.640 They won't go out of bed for for during the weekend at all because they're just looping and looping and looping. 01:58:38.880 --> 01:58:46.880 So I think that the consequences of this thought looping is quite severe, actually. 01:58:47.439 --> 01:58:52.239 It might also be quite underrecognized because it doesn't really show. 01:58:52.399 --> 01:59:04.560 I mean, if you for instance, if if I meet a patient who has um washing OCD or or uh checking the stove, you can actually see it. 01:59:05.119 --> 01:59:42.880 But these kind of people who have like only doubts and they're stress and then they have inner discussion about their doubts, it doesn't really show because they they they they are they they they seem to be working out quite fine, but it like in their head they are really stuck, it's naturally quite hidden uh because it it doesn't really show, and and this is a quite interesting aspect of taboo OCD in general, is that it doesn't really show because all their compulsions are like in their head, sort of, yeah. 01:59:43.039 --> 01:59:53.600 No, I understand that, and also I suppose the other thing about being bisexual, just just knowing I mean again, the interesting thing about doing bisexual brunch is that every story we get of somebody who's bisexual is completely different. 01:59:53.840 --> 02:00:08.640 You know, there are people who categorize themselves as 90, 10, 50, 50, 60, 40, whatever, in terms of attraction to different people, and there are other people who will say at certain times, well, actually, at that time of my life, I literally was completely straight in another time of my life, I was completely gay. 02:00:08.720 --> 02:00:12.000 So I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the issue changes, doesn't it? 02:00:12.079 --> 02:00:22.720 So there will be times when these people don't necessarily have all these thoughts all the time, and they're they they feel settled for a while, but then it emerges again at some stage in their lives, you know what I mean? 02:00:22.800 --> 02:00:25.199 So it's it's it's not always there, constant, isn't it? 02:00:25.279 --> 02:00:30.560 So I suppose that's quite difficult for the experts, as it will, as it were, to get a hold of. 02:00:30.800 --> 02:00:58.720 Yeah, and it's quite it's actually uh my experience is that it's quite rare that people actually seek out help for this because they think of this not as a like a psychological problem per se, but it it's a problem of my of me as a person more, so they don't see it as as a psychological problem that that can that can be treated. 02:00:58.880 --> 02:01:04.560 Uh it they they often get stuck more in in more existential questions. 02:01:04.720 --> 02:01:05.439 Who am I? 02:01:05.680 --> 02:01:06.720 Yeah, no, absolutely. 02:01:06.800 --> 02:01:26.079 And and to be fair, you know, all of this could be helped by a society that talks about it and let people know that mirrored them and showed that actually there are people out there who do have a sexuality that has changes occasionally, they do have they are attracted different by different genders, all those kind of things that would help massively. 02:01:26.239 --> 02:01:35.520 But in the meantime, if you were talking to somebody who had this issue, and again, as I say, I know that every issue is different, everybody goes for a different thing. 02:01:35.680 --> 02:01:42.960 What I mean you mentioned you alluded to a little bit at the beginning, but what kind of advice would you give people to sort of help to help them deal with these kind of things? 02:01:43.119 --> 02:01:49.520 I mean, first of all, I suppose one of the main things really is to find somebody, a friend or whatever, to talk to about it, isn't it? 02:01:49.600 --> 02:01:59.119 Really, to talk to another individual who they might not necessarily understand being bisexual, but then this might be it might be a way of you know at least airing your thoughts and whatever. 02:01:59.199 --> 02:02:00.399 So that helps in a way, doesn't it? 02:02:00.720 --> 02:02:03.199 You know, friendship um is always a good thing. 02:02:03.680 --> 02:02:27.439 I would say that friendship is the one key part here is that you can uh you can talk to a friend close to you and uh and um sort of ventilate your doubts about uh various issues, and then your friend can also talk about his or her doubts. 02:02:27.600 --> 02:02:49.600 It the the that those doubts may not be related to your doubts, but it doesn't really matter because that is what friendship is about, and that that by itself will lower your your your uh loops, sort of because doubts is that that is something natural about being a human being. 02:02:49.840 --> 02:02:57.279 So I think you you this is like number one to find a friend and just ventilate this, talk about this. 02:02:58.079 --> 02:03:05.680 But if you also want to like have more concrete strategies, how to cope with these kind of thoughts. 02:03:06.000 --> 02:03:15.119 My advice would be to start to this is a quite boring psychologist uh strategy now, so so bear with me. 02:03:15.359 --> 02:03:25.199 But you need to start uh have some sort of diary, you need to to um detect when you start to think about this. 02:03:25.520 --> 02:03:33.199 So, write down uh uh when and where you have your doubts, and what do you do when you get these doubts? 02:03:33.439 --> 02:03:38.720 Do you go into this the discussion with the thoughts, or do you just let them be? 02:03:39.359 --> 02:03:52.159 If you start to discuss your thoughts, then an alternative strategy would just be to not go into discussions with these thoughts, just let them be and focus on something else. 02:03:52.319 --> 02:03:55.520 That would be like my number one advice. 02:03:55.840 --> 02:04:19.920 Yeah, one of the things we find when we're interviewing people who are telling us their bisexual journey stories, how they came to understanding they were bisexual or might be bisexual, whatever it may be, is that you do a degree of people who go and see counsellors in different places, and uh there seems to be a lack of counselors, not just in the UK, but all over the world, that actually understands what bisexuality is, really. 02:04:20.079 --> 02:04:28.960 So they'll talk to them, often they'll talk, they'll end up speaking to an uh supposedly LGBT counsellor, which and generally they focus you on being gay and coming out as gay and whatever. 02:04:29.279 --> 02:04:39.680 But generally, we found most people just don't feel that when they've been to see a counsellor, and this is anecdotally, but the most people we've spoken to that they feel as though they're they're being understood. 02:04:40.000 --> 02:04:40.640 Do you know what I mean? 02:04:40.720 --> 02:04:53.520 So it seems there's a it seems there is a gap, a huge gap, that society doesn't really um understand how to deal with questions around sexuality that has nuance. 02:04:53.840 --> 02:05:02.960 Have you asked them like more concretely what what what what have they experienced so that they don't have felt understood? 02:05:03.199 --> 02:05:07.760 Have they just gotten some quick advice or what has like been the gap? 02:05:08.079 --> 02:05:16.800 Yeah, I think it's it feels as though it's like a textbook sort of way of dealing with coming out, as it were, like you know, people come out as as as gay, you know what I mean. 02:05:16.960 --> 02:05:20.399 I think I don't think people understand what coming out as bi really means. 02:05:20.479 --> 02:05:20.960 Do you know what I mean? 02:05:21.039 --> 02:05:28.960 It's it feels that because there is a there is a tendency, I think, in society overall, to think that buy men are buy men and just on the way to being gay. 02:05:29.119 --> 02:05:29.680 Do you know what I mean? 02:05:29.760 --> 02:05:39.119 That actually eventually they'll uh admit to being but to being gay or or come to co terms with being gay and they're going through some transition, and that tends to be the the thought process. 02:05:39.199 --> 02:05:55.520 I'm not saying these counsellors are necessarily thinking that, but I think they don't necessarily it doesn't seem that the counsellors that the people we've spoken to who have seen seem to sort of understand the intricacies of what being bisexual really means, you know. 02:05:55.600 --> 02:06:04.880 So, for example, if you are bisexual and you're a bisexual single person, there it is very different dating a uh dating a man to dating a woman, for example. 02:06:04.960 --> 02:06:18.079 You know, there's just different, it's just a different mindset and a different way of doing things, obviously physically different, but also just the the whole thing of that the dynamics are different of dating men and women in in different ways, you know. 02:06:18.159 --> 02:06:21.520 So, and also that whole thing of being open to your partner. 02:06:21.840 --> 02:06:38.159 So a lot of bi people will not be open to their partner straight away because you know, I mean, people who have who are often, I mean, sometimes a surprise, and people are very nice about it, but you'll find men who are dating um straight women who and then they tell them they're bye and they're horrified by the whole prospect. 02:06:38.319 --> 02:06:43.520 And you get the same thing with gay men who run a mile at the prospect of uh dating a bye man. 02:06:43.600 --> 02:06:57.199 So it's it's um yeah, it's fraught with lots of different layers and different issues, and it does I don't see it doesn't that the people you spoke and don't seem the the counselors don't seem to be able to get a grip of that, if you know what I mean. 02:06:57.359 --> 02:07:00.800 Yeah, because there are many different layers to this. 02:07:01.119 --> 02:07:11.359 Uh many of these you just spoke about, but but also like how do I cope with my own thoughts, with my own doubts? 02:07:11.520 --> 02:07:14.640 Uh uh, how should I interpret them? 02:07:14.800 --> 02:07:19.359 How should I uh uh what should I do when I get these kind of thoughts? 02:07:19.520 --> 02:07:24.800 Because they tend to make people more depressed, more moody. 02:07:25.119 --> 02:07:40.640 Uh, and and that's is important uh that you actually have a strategy how to cope with your doubts that could be related to to bisexuality, but it but but and all the things related to that as well, yeah. 02:07:40.800 --> 02:07:41.439 No, absolutely. 02:07:41.600 --> 02:07:52.159 But also I suppose the other thing is when we're talking about this as being a bit a bit of an issue, a bit of a problem, but actually it's not there's nothing wrong with somebody for having doubts, is there? 02:07:52.319 --> 02:07:58.079 There's nothing wrong with somebody for having being mixed up about things or not not being quite sure or whatever. 02:07:58.239 --> 02:08:06.640 And you know, it's it I think sometimes people think that I think we're all we're human beings, and human beings all have doubts, really. 02:08:06.720 --> 02:08:23.760 But I suppose with this one, the difficulty is as you said before, that the you know, with with with things like you know, um, I don't know, um cleaning stuff obsessively or whatever, you can see that and you can maybe deal with that, but this is something that has got so many different intricate parts to it, hasn't it? 02:08:24.079 --> 02:08:24.720 Exactly. 02:08:24.880 --> 02:08:32.319 And and you start to discuss on one topic, and then that will change to another topic and another topic and another topic. 02:08:32.560 --> 02:08:37.279 So I think you put it quite uh uh good here. 02:08:37.439 --> 02:08:45.039 That is, I mean, if you are if you have a human brain, you will have doubts about various things. 02:08:45.439 --> 02:08:47.600 It's it's not wrong to have doubts. 02:08:47.920 --> 02:09:09.600 That is a natural that that's a natural part of being a uh human, but it it is how you cope, how how how what do you do with the doubts uh that can start fart looping uh again and again and again, and that will often make people quite depressed. 02:09:09.920 --> 02:09:11.119 Yeah, no, absolutely. 02:09:11.199 --> 02:09:16.720 Uh the first thing you said there was that the first thing was to say friendship is important, and I think that is it's really important. 02:09:16.880 --> 02:09:30.960 It's really important to talk to people physically in person, and I think one of the issues we have today is that more and more of what we do is online, so more and more people are spending their time in forums, not actually talking to human beings necessarily. 02:09:31.119 --> 02:09:34.560 Uh, people are turning to AI for support and all the rest of it. 02:09:35.039 --> 02:09:40.479 So, you know, all these things, you know, are an issue, aren't they, really, going forward? 02:09:40.720 --> 02:09:44.640 Because people need to start connecting with other human beings, don't they? 02:09:44.960 --> 02:10:07.439 Yes, that is one of my uh I I can I I like AI, but but uh my main worry about our society today is that we don't train sufficiently enough how to make like really intimate friendships with people during uh during the school years, during teenagers and and and so on. 02:10:08.159 --> 02:10:23.760 Uh, because what is if there is one thing that research has shown is that having an intimate relationship, and I don't mean intimate in a sexual way, in in a more like a very, very close friendship. 02:10:24.079 --> 02:10:33.279 If you have uh intimate relationships, you that that will like vaccinate you from a lot of bad things during life. 02:10:33.439 --> 02:10:53.119 So having close friends is one of the most important things you you can actually have in your life, and the only way to have really intimate friendship is to actually be with friends a lot, and also deal with conflicts with friends and solve them together with friends. 02:10:53.279 --> 02:11:00.640 That is how you build up a very, very close uh relationship, and I think that is a major threat. 02:11:00.960 --> 02:11:04.720 It's so convenient to ask an AI for something. 02:11:05.039 --> 02:11:09.920 Uh, and and an AI is also very uh how do you say it in English? 02:11:10.000 --> 02:11:13.760 Uh fully so it it it never really provokes you. 02:11:14.079 --> 02:11:21.199 Uh it it it it always says the things you want uh it to say basically. 02:11:21.439 --> 02:11:45.439 So I think this is um this is quite important actually, and it's it's important uh for our kids uh uh during the uh during during childhood that we actually can train how to get really really close um relationships, friend uh how to how to make really really uh close friends. 02:11:46.319 --> 02:11:58.560 Yeah, I mean I notice more and more now that it's slightly going off topic, but it's it's related in a way, I suppose, because most people are uh we speak to are bisexual, often isolated and lonely, even with a relationship. 02:11:58.640 --> 02:11:59.760 So it does it does fit into. 02:12:00.159 --> 02:12:01.680 There into this a little bit. 02:12:01.920 --> 02:12:07.359 Just that more and more people just find it very difficult to communicate in person. 02:12:07.920 --> 02:12:17.199 You know, you arrange to meet people and they'll turn you down because of whatever reason, but they'd rather connect uh electronically, really. 02:12:17.359 --> 02:12:22.720 They'd rather send a text message or uh an email or a a WhatsApp or whatever. 02:12:22.880 --> 02:12:26.239 Um, and we feel it feels as though we're hiding behind things. 02:12:26.319 --> 02:12:43.279 I did a documentary not so long ago about how many how many people are wearing headphones everywhere and earbuds and whatever, which were uh the earbuds, the um uh wireless earbuds were created by a fellow Swede actually, um who I who I got to know quite well. 02:12:43.439 --> 02:12:48.800 Um and and he told me actually that he hates them now because he feels as he's created a monster. 02:12:48.880 --> 02:12:56.479 Because everybody's going round with headphones on, they're sort of hiding themselves out of society, not it's they're living in a bubble. 02:12:56.640 --> 02:13:06.399 There are people, we did this documentary, there are people who said young people who said they'd never heard bird song because the entirety of their young years was with headphones on, you know. 02:13:06.560 --> 02:13:06.720 Right. 02:13:06.800 --> 02:13:09.119 So what I'm saying is we're in a we're in a world, aren't we? 02:13:09.279 --> 02:13:22.479 We're where we're we're sort of communication, even though we're in a communication world in others, in other sense, human proper communication is getting less and less, and that's that's a real a real worry, isn't it? 02:13:22.720 --> 02:13:26.880 This is actually a quite interesting clinical finding I have. 02:13:27.119 --> 02:13:40.079 Uh uh um the um every patient I have ever met in my whole life who gets stuck in these doubts, they lack uh intimate, close friend relationship. 02:13:40.239 --> 02:14:01.760 So the number one intervention I've uh started to do the the last couple of years is actually you need to talk to a friend, you need to make the step and and expose yourself, tell uh tell your friend about your doubts and ask your friend have you had any similar doubts or or doubts about X, Y, and Z? 02:14:01.840 --> 02:14:03.520 How how did you cope with that? 02:14:03.840 --> 02:14:24.640 And practice how to open up, like really open up, because um many patients I've met uh they they um they are quite social per individuals, uh are they can make like friends quite easy, but but they are really hesitant to open up about their inner doubts. 02:14:24.720 --> 02:14:32.640 So I think that uh we are really on to something here that it's it's all about close relationships, right? 02:14:32.720 --> 02:14:43.199 How how how uh how to open up, how to tell about your doubts to our very, very close friends that that you that you trust. 02:14:44.319 --> 02:15:03.279 Often in the stories that we're covering on bisexual brunch, often uh the people the people who are struggling are the people who are in um actual relationships, they've been with their partner, uh, could be it could be a man who's been with his his wife for years and years and years, or vice versa, different way. 02:15:03.439 --> 02:15:15.119 And you get that quite a lot, and they're their best friend is they're often their partner, and they've just not been able to, for decades, to be able to tell them the truth about their own sexuality. 02:15:15.520 --> 02:15:20.319 Um, so I mean, and that I mean that that is you know, that's even harder, isn't it? 02:15:20.479 --> 02:15:29.600 Because they are a friend, but they're also a partner, and you know, so they're risking a lot of things there, and so so, but yeah, I are you're right, absolutely, yeah. 02:15:29.840 --> 02:15:34.720 And and that is, I would say, a risk because then you only have one egg, really. 02:15:34.960 --> 02:15:46.319 So you need friends as well outside your relationship, uh, because I mean it it uh one doubt you will guarantee have is about your relationship. 02:15:46.479 --> 02:15:47.760 That is the normal thing. 02:15:47.840 --> 02:15:54.960 You you have doubts about your relationship, and you need to ventilate that to someone else as well, of course. 02:15:55.039 --> 02:16:06.239 You you can talk with your partner about uh some issues related to relationship, but you you it you need friends, you really you need close friends. 02:16:06.880 --> 02:16:08.640 How this is the final question. 02:16:08.800 --> 02:16:10.319 How common is this kind of thing? 02:16:10.399 --> 02:16:24.800 You know, we're talking about bisexuality now, uh, which is a certain you know uh degree of people in society, um, but but generally, this whole thing of of being mixed up about your your identity or your sexuality, whatever is it is it is it a big thing? 02:16:24.960 --> 02:16:26.319 Is it is it happening all the time? 02:16:26.399 --> 02:16:36.319 Is it something that's is it something that prevails everywhere, the way you've worked, or so um the the traditional taboo theme. 02:16:36.479 --> 02:16:42.399 Uh am I uh homosexual, uh that kind of intrusive thoughts. 02:16:42.559 --> 02:16:54.000 My experience is that that is quite unkommon in modern western societies, but it's super common in other uh countris uh which are very religious. 02:16:54.159 --> 02:16:56.959 So that is one of the most kommon themes. 02:16:57.360 --> 02:17:03.040 When I've spoken to kolleggin in väligiska countris. 02:17:03.920 --> 02:17:26.159 Så that is one fin that is not that kommon i migens in i Sweden, för instan, but um i mitet a lot of people who they uh they have dagts about everything relating to their relationship. 02:17:26.399 --> 02:17:30.719 So it's it might be the partners but it it might also be very related. 02:17:31.040 --> 02:17:33.760 Am I really attracted to to women för instances? 02:17:33.920 --> 02:17:43.680 And in and it all gets stuck whether is this the right relationship for me, or uh am I really attracted to uh men instead, and so on. 02:17:43.760 --> 02:17:56.799 So so it it's quite uh it it all it is usually presented as like I doubt my relationship, but but uh am I bisexual is a related issue to that as well. 02:17:56.959 --> 02:18:01.040 And my experience is that that is quite common, actually. 02:18:01.840 --> 02:18:08.000 You know, of course, there are a lot of people who don't come forward, who've got these issues and never ever come forward and talk about it, do they? 02:18:08.159 --> 02:18:12.799 So what what's the what what can this type of thing do to people though? 02:18:12.959 --> 02:18:21.360 If you've got something going round and round and around your head constantly and it's gnawing away at you, what are the unintended consequences of that sometimes? 02:18:21.520 --> 02:18:24.399 What does it end up, you know, because we talk all the time, don't we? 02:18:24.479 --> 02:18:27.920 We talk generally as a society about mental health, mental health, mental health, mental health. 02:18:28.479 --> 02:18:30.879 But nobody really says what I really mean sometimes. 02:18:30.959 --> 02:18:35.840 What what does it mean and what can it what what issues can it bring up for people? 02:18:36.159 --> 02:18:41.600 So there are two bad consequences about ruminating all the time. 02:18:41.760 --> 02:19:00.079 Uh so one consequence is that when we people uh start to ruminate and worry and and uh uh in constant discussions with these kind of thoughts, we are much we we tend to solve problem uh less well. 02:19:00.879 --> 02:19:11.200 So uh we we are uh not very good at solving problems, and we are not very good at attending to things that we like in life. 02:19:11.360 --> 02:19:24.959 So so I we have done research showing that uh people get stuck in this, are uh they concentrate less at work, they they are not attending fully to their close relationships and so on. 02:19:25.040 --> 02:19:29.280 So it has an impairment in general function, in general. 02:19:29.840 --> 02:19:32.719 So that is one bad consequence. 02:19:32.959 --> 02:19:45.680 Another bad consequence is that if you start to ruminate this, if you start to worry about this and in constant discussion, that is a risk factor of developing other psychiatric conditions as well. 02:19:45.920 --> 02:19:56.479 That could be insomnia, that could be uh generalized anxiety disorders, it could also it's also a risk factor of developing depression for instance. 02:19:56.719 --> 02:20:11.600 So it it's um even if it has not become clinical, it can be it it it it could develop to uh to depression, for instance, if if this s uh uh continues throughout life. 02:20:11.920 --> 02:20:24.079 Yeah, I suppose the danger is that people don't necessarily look at the roots of this in something like this, and they just start start giving people pills and things, and that becomes a just becomes a vicious circle, doesn't it, in that sense. 02:20:24.719 --> 02:20:26.639 Professor, it's been really nice talking to you. 02:20:26.799 --> 02:20:27.040 Thank you. 02:20:27.280 --> 02:20:28.879 Yeah, lovely to talk to you too. 02:20:29.040 --> 02:20:29.680 Thank you. 02:20:29.920 --> 02:20:32.959 So coming up a bit later on bisexual brunch. 02:20:33.280 --> 02:20:34.079 Hi there. 02:20:34.639 --> 02:20:40.079 I am so so sorry for my awful. 02:20:40.239 --> 02:20:45.360 I um I'm in like my flat in Edinburgh, and it's lovely. 02:20:45.600 --> 02:20:52.079 Um, but the fridge is tiny, so I have to line my milk on its side. 02:20:52.319 --> 02:20:55.520 Um and I got up to make coffee. 02:20:55.600 --> 02:20:58.239 I was gonna be, it was gonna be I brought my coffee machine. 02:20:58.319 --> 02:21:00.399 I'm doing Edinburgh right this year. 02:21:00.559 --> 02:21:07.840 Um, and I took the milk out, and because it's been lying on its side, I didn't realize the milk isn't designed to be lying on its side normally. 02:21:08.000 --> 02:21:11.600 Um, so I think like some I think it's probably the lid. 02:21:11.840 --> 02:21:20.079 It like the just the the thing was cut like the the entire tray was covered in milk, and I was like, oh my god, this is great. 02:21:20.239 --> 02:21:25.360 So I've like, yeah, I've I've sort of I've dabbed it, I will wash it after this. 02:21:27.360 --> 02:21:27.760 Perfect. 02:21:28.000 --> 02:21:29.520 Yeah, I've had that before to be honest. 02:21:29.600 --> 02:21:40.159 We always pack our fridge with far too much, and sometimes you end up putting you've opened the milk, and you think, oh, it's fine, it's on that, it's it's it's yeah, it's it's yeah, it's a it's a container, there's a lid. 02:21:40.799 --> 02:21:42.239 That's what lids are meant to do. 02:21:42.319 --> 02:21:42.799 This is good. 02:21:43.600 --> 02:21:45.680 It doesn't work, it does work exactly. 02:21:45.920 --> 02:21:47.760 You should put a sign on the milk. 02:21:48.000 --> 02:21:54.239 That's Ariane Marabani, a young comedian who describes himself as brown, blind, and bi. 02:21:54.879 --> 02:22:00.799 Getting himself settled in rather stickily to tell his bisexual journey story. 02:22:00.959 --> 02:22:02.399 That's coming up later. 02:22:04.479 --> 02:22:06.079 Something you want to know? 02:22:06.559 --> 02:22:08.639 Why not ask a bisexual? 02:22:09.760 --> 02:22:18.319 So, our first ask a bisection, bisexual question is from uh anonymous message from uh a woman in Leeds, it's 41. 02:22:18.479 --> 02:22:21.440 She says, I've been out as bisexual for about four years. 02:22:21.600 --> 02:22:31.200 Most of my dating life has been with men, partly because I understood the rhythm of flirting with them, uh, what they meant, how they approached me, what the dynamic usually was. 02:22:31.360 --> 02:22:36.000 I'm very visibly um alt, visibly queer, whatever that means. 02:22:36.159 --> 02:22:38.799 And with men, I always felt like I knew the script. 02:22:38.959 --> 02:22:41.120 With women, it's been completely different. 02:22:41.200 --> 02:22:43.680 I've dated a few, but nothing ever really developed. 02:22:43.840 --> 02:22:48.719 I struggled to tell whether a woman is flirting with me or uh just being friendly. 02:22:48.799 --> 02:22:51.760 That's uh your story, uh uh Laurie. 02:22:52.000 --> 02:22:55.920 And I'm autistic, so reading those cues is already a challenge. 02:22:56.079 --> 02:23:03.200 I get stuck in the loop of worrying, I'm imposing or misreading things, and then I never escalate anything into something romantic. 02:23:03.280 --> 02:23:06.079 It's like there's this gap I just can't quite cross. 02:23:06.319 --> 02:23:10.319 Fast forward to now, I'm in the healthiest relationship I've ever had. 02:23:10.479 --> 02:23:18.000 My boyfriend is kind, communicative, attentive, funny, genuinely the first man I've ever dated who feels like a long-term partner. 02:23:18.239 --> 02:23:21.280 I love him deeply and I don't want to jeopardize what we have. 02:23:21.440 --> 02:23:24.159 But here's the part I feel guilty about mitting. 02:23:24.319 --> 02:23:34.399 Now that I'm in a relationship that could be the one, I'm scared I'll never get the chance to have the kind of relationship with a woman I've always quietly yearned for. 02:23:34.639 --> 02:23:39.680 It took me so long to accept my bisexuality, and now I worry that I'll never fully live it. 02:23:39.840 --> 02:23:48.799 I don't want to leave my boyfriend, I'm happy, but I also feel that this ache, like a part of me, is looking over the fence at a life I might never explore. 02:23:49.040 --> 02:23:54.799 He makes me feel awful, like I'm a bad person for even thinking it. 02:23:55.040 --> 02:24:03.680 I don't want to cheat, I don't want to blow up my relationship, I just don't know how to sit with this feeling uh of bisexual FOMO. 02:24:04.079 --> 02:24:04.799 Is this normal? 02:24:04.959 --> 02:24:06.479 Has anyone else felt this way? 02:24:06.639 --> 02:24:11.760 How do you deal with wanting to honour your bisexuality while also loving your partner? 02:24:11.920 --> 02:24:14.000 My answer to that is I think it's common. 02:24:14.159 --> 02:24:18.319 I think there's lots of people who feel this way, lots of people who feel guilty. 02:24:18.559 --> 02:24:25.280 Um I felt guilty, I felt guilty about my straight side at certain times of my life. 02:24:25.440 --> 02:24:29.440 I felt, oh, I'm certainly because I started in a gay world as it were. 02:24:29.680 --> 02:24:34.159 I felt as though I'm sort of, I was sort of letting the side down. 02:24:34.319 --> 02:24:42.479 I was, you know, that that I felt uncomfortable in that situation because I felt as though I was I had an affinity with the gay community, that kind of thing. 02:24:42.559 --> 02:24:43.920 And I felt as though that was wrong. 02:24:44.079 --> 02:24:55.360 Even being bisexual to an extent sometimes, I occasionally feel bad about that or have felt bad about that, uh, which is silly, but um some gay people make me feel bad about it, I have made me feel bad about it. 02:24:55.520 --> 02:25:08.479 So I think it's I think it's um quite normal actually to be in a situation whereby you've got a full-time monogamous relationship and you wonder about what if. 02:25:08.799 --> 02:25:16.399 Not that, and I'm sure we'll come to this with Laurie in a moment, not that it necessarily has to be um 100% for the rest of your life. 02:25:16.479 --> 02:25:27.680 There may be opportunities for you to um be with your partner and also um have um um sexual relations with others, we'll talk about that in a moment. 02:25:27.920 --> 02:25:29.360 What do you say to this, Louis? 02:25:31.280 --> 02:25:36.959 Um, I think that this is a major issue, and it's an issue that I've really been focusing on this year. 02:25:37.040 --> 02:26:05.520 So on my bispective YouTube channel, I've done some videos on what I call bisexual regret, um, which is, and it's so common, basically, you know, people that know they're bisexual, at least have some inkling, bury it deep down, and then basically do the straight thing or do the gay thing, and then they wake up one day and realize they're never gonna have that experience without cheating or opening up their relationship, with neither of which seem like options that those people want to do. 02:26:06.079 --> 02:26:19.280 And so then I realize that oh my god, I I allowed stigma and other people's opinions to stop me exploring something that seems natural to me, and now I might never um explore it. 02:26:19.440 --> 02:26:21.760 Um, I might never have that chance to know what that's like. 02:26:21.920 --> 02:26:23.840 How could I have robbed myself of this? 02:26:24.079 --> 02:26:27.840 Uh in the first instance, what I would say is I think we need to tell these stories more. 02:26:28.000 --> 02:26:38.879 I think there's no greater way to encourage the youth to not allow themselves to be held back by stigma and go and explore things if that's how you feel and that's what you want to do. 02:26:39.040 --> 02:26:40.559 Uh, I think it's really important. 02:26:40.799 --> 02:26:45.280 As for what this person should do, it's really hard for us to say. 02:26:45.520 --> 02:26:46.799 We don't know them personally. 02:26:46.959 --> 02:26:49.760 Every situation I feel is going to be a little bit different. 02:26:49.920 --> 02:26:55.440 Obviously, talk to your partner if you can, see, see what might be able to be worked out there. 02:26:55.680 --> 02:27:02.719 Um but if not, I think what what I would say is, you know, this might be a bit controversial and taking you a bit too much of a side. 02:27:02.799 --> 02:27:09.440 I I don't think you should blow up a healthy relationship that's working otherwise because of this. 02:27:09.600 --> 02:27:26.000 You know, if you if you if if an open relationship is not something that's on the cards, I would say there are a lot of people that have reached out to me over the years in this situation that have then gone on to end their relationship and then have not found happiness in having that experience. 02:27:26.159 --> 02:27:34.479 As in, like, you know, they they have gone and had sex with a man, but it was over really quickly, it was a bit messy, it was a seven-minute thing, and it probably wasn't worth their marriage. 02:27:34.719 --> 02:27:38.000 That said, I'm not saying it's easy, so it is a very tricky one. 02:27:38.079 --> 02:27:40.079 I don't think there's a very good answer to it. 02:27:40.159 --> 02:27:42.719 Um, and every situation is going to be different. 02:27:43.120 --> 02:27:44.799 Yeah, no, absolutely, I think it is. 02:27:44.879 --> 02:27:52.959 And but I I yeah, I think the whole thing is about this person talking to their partner about how they feel. 02:27:53.200 --> 02:28:02.479 Uh, I'm presuming, and this is I don't know actually, I'm presuming the partner it is knowledgeable about the bisexuality, but I don't know that uh officially. 02:28:02.719 --> 02:28:21.120 Um and you know, I you'll be very surprised, I think, sometimes with partners, especially if you've been with the partner for many, many years, you'll probably be quite surprised at how accommodating and liberal they can be if they love you. 02:28:21.520 --> 02:28:25.040 So, uh, and I've certainly experienced that myself in my relationship. 02:28:25.360 --> 02:28:26.559 What do you make of it, Laurie? 02:28:26.959 --> 02:28:30.719 I mean, I think, okay, so first of all, yes, I echo what you've said. 02:28:30.799 --> 02:28:33.040 It's very common, it's incredibly common. 02:28:33.360 --> 02:28:41.120 I think that um I would agree with you, Ashley, but I would put a coda on that. 02:28:41.360 --> 02:28:43.600 People can love you and be insecure. 02:28:43.840 --> 02:28:51.760 Um, and so um you can have a partner that loves you dearly, but that this just feels so threatening too that they can find it difficult. 02:28:51.920 --> 02:28:59.120 And these are the times where I say to people, get help from uh a therapist who actually knows what they're doing in this area, right? 02:28:59.200 --> 02:29:12.079 Who's somebody who um knows about bisexuality, who also knows about monogamy, non-monogamy, um, and and it is is able to help you by facilitating the conversation. 02:29:12.319 --> 02:29:17.280 Because trying to have Lori Beth Bisbee, then no, you can't be Lori Beth Bisbee. 02:29:20.239 --> 02:29:21.520 And there are other people like me. 02:29:22.479 --> 02:29:29.520 I do loads of I do loads of that though, but it's so we're not saying before we go before we go any further, there aren't that many of you though, are there, Lori Beth? 02:29:29.760 --> 02:29:30.239 No, there aren't. 02:29:30.399 --> 02:29:30.959 No, there aren't. 02:29:31.040 --> 02:29:35.840 And and I'm not saying because I'm also I'm not saying go get therapy. 02:29:36.000 --> 02:29:37.360 That's a separate thing I do. 02:29:37.440 --> 02:29:46.159 I'm saying somebody who can facilitate a conversation and help you manage your strong feelings so that you can hear each other. 02:29:46.959 --> 02:29:50.639 Um, because that's what the problem is when they try to do it with each other. 02:29:50.799 --> 02:29:54.000 It's like, oh my god, this is the end of the world, it's the end of the world. 02:29:54.079 --> 02:30:00.000 And it's like, well, before we talk about options, let's bring the temperature down so you can hear each other. 02:30:00.239 --> 02:30:02.959 Um, and it is a very hard thing. 02:30:03.120 --> 02:30:09.120 Um, if you are not non-monogamous, it's a difficult situation. 02:30:10.319 --> 02:30:15.920 Sometimes people get a hall pass and you and they negotiate that. 02:30:16.719 --> 02:30:23.200 Um and sometimes it helps for the partner to help pick the the person that you're gonna have the experience with. 02:30:23.440 --> 02:30:35.840 But again, if you don't if that your partner doesn't have support, they may find it almost impossible to do that because they in their mind a lot of times they don't understand bisexuality. 02:30:36.079 --> 02:30:44.159 In their mind, if you go do this thing, you're gonna discover you're actually gay and then you're not gonna want them. 02:30:44.879 --> 02:30:50.239 Um, because again, people expect binaries, so it's it's really having that support there to try. 02:30:50.399 --> 02:30:57.440 So that's an option that is ethically non-monogamous, but doesn't mean that you have ongoing ethical non-monogamy. 02:30:57.680 --> 02:31:00.239 It's a one-off experience. 02:31:00.399 --> 02:31:04.559 And I've worked with a number of people where that kind of situation was arranged. 02:31:04.879 --> 02:31:17.920 So we set up the space for everybody to air their feelings, the way that they could set the rules, you know, and and how they could slowly approach it, how to pull the plug if it was too scary to try again. 02:31:18.159 --> 02:31:22.239 So it wasn't uh let's go and have a five-minute experience down the road. 02:31:22.399 --> 02:31:25.200 It was actually well thought out and planned. 02:31:25.360 --> 02:31:29.760 Um you did you did quite a lot of that with straight couples, didn't you, in the great sex experiment? 02:31:30.399 --> 02:31:38.239 Well, it was yeah, there they yeah, because all of them wanted to have, you know, you know, they were bicurious, a lot of bicurious women. 02:31:38.399 --> 02:31:49.520 I mean, we did have people, you know, I don't know if I don't know if you remember, but in season two, one of my favorite stories was the story of a man who thought he was bisexual and wasn't sure. 02:31:51.600 --> 02:31:55.440 Um and his wife wanted to facilitate him finding out. 02:31:57.040 --> 02:32:06.239 Um so he went and had an an a wonderful experience with a man, and he had a a brilliant time. 02:32:07.440 --> 02:32:15.920 She went and had an experience with a woman and really enjoyed herself, and they came back together, and it was the best example of compersion I have ever seen. 02:32:16.079 --> 02:32:28.479 And compersion is when you get joy out of your partner's joy, where they just sat in bed and talked about their experience, and not just the physical, but the the emotions, and it was just wonderful. 02:32:28.719 --> 02:32:41.120 So sometimes you can have a situation like that, um, and they worked out how their marriage could be open to those sorts of experiences. 02:32:42.000 --> 02:32:52.559 But a lot of a lot of the a lot of the time in the Great Sex experiment, a lot of the the straight relationships ended up with the the the the poor guy getting a little bit jealous of the fact that the two women were getting on a bit more. 02:32:52.959 --> 02:32:55.920 Yes, yeah, but because they were expecting something for them. 02:32:56.559 --> 02:32:56.959 Right. 02:32:57.120 --> 02:33:02.399 They were expecting something for them, but actually, you know, uh that's not how it works. 02:33:02.639 --> 02:33:06.239 But so the those are that that's certainly an option. 02:33:06.799 --> 02:33:12.559 Actual non-monogamy is an option, um but also in some cases it's just not possible. 02:33:12.719 --> 02:33:18.639 And then it's about learning to experience what you want to experience in fantasy. 02:33:20.079 --> 02:33:29.280 And I know it does it sounds like a letdown, but you know, a lot of us have fantasies that if we enacted them, it wouldn't be worth it. 02:33:30.159 --> 02:33:34.559 What I will say is, well, I know a lot of people do cheat in situations like that. 02:33:34.879 --> 02:33:38.879 Please consider trying to go about it ethically before and and not cheat. 02:33:39.040 --> 02:33:42.799 Because the damage that you do lying is the biggest damage of all. 02:33:42.959 --> 02:33:45.360 That's the hard part to deal with. 02:33:45.680 --> 02:33:57.040 Um dealing with you know, fallout from jealousy and whatever when you've actually agreed on things is much easier than dealing with my partner hid things from me and lied. 02:33:57.920 --> 02:34:08.399 Now we don't know whether this lady Would ever consider ethical non-monogamy, but you you um practice ethical non-monogamy monogamy itself. 02:34:08.639 --> 02:34:10.879 I always get it mixed up, I always wanted it calling it the other way. 02:34:11.200 --> 02:34:12.079 I got it right this time. 02:34:12.239 --> 02:34:16.000 So I always call it non-ethical monogamy, which is obviously a completely different thing. 02:34:18.079 --> 02:34:26.959 So what tell us how you came about it and how you and your partner managed to uh be happy with it, as it were. 02:34:27.200 --> 02:34:34.079 I mean, so I I mean I have always been non-monogamous, but I haven't always practiced non-monogamy. 02:34:34.479 --> 02:34:36.000 I've always been that person. 02:34:36.159 --> 02:34:38.000 If I love you, I'll probably want to have sex with you. 02:34:38.079 --> 02:34:42.079 It doesn't mean I will have sex with you, but I'll have the desire to. 02:34:42.159 --> 02:34:45.440 And I don't like to stifle that desire if I don't have to. 02:34:45.600 --> 02:34:52.079 Um, but I had a monogamous marriage, um, which was fairly disastrous, as he had affairs and I did not. 02:34:52.559 --> 02:34:55.200 Um, so that that went boom. 02:34:55.360 --> 02:35:00.479 And then I my second marriage, um, we were non-monogamous, but we had some rules. 02:35:00.639 --> 02:35:03.840 And so he went and had an affair because he didn't want to stick to the rules. 02:35:04.079 --> 02:35:08.079 So, so you know, you can be non-monogamous and someone can still have an affair. 02:35:08.319 --> 02:35:09.920 Um, so that ended that one. 02:35:10.000 --> 02:35:20.239 But uh uh this marriage that I've been in, well, this relationship I've been in for 17 years and married for 11 and a half, we started non-monogamously. 02:35:20.479 --> 02:35:36.559 And um it works when you make sure that you give your partner the attention and you give the relationship the weight that you need to give it. 02:35:37.040 --> 02:35:42.639 I think the mistakes that people make are um not working on their own self first. 02:35:42.799 --> 02:35:53.440 So if you're really insecure, you shouldn't try to be ethically non-monogamous because that's uh, you know, that's just a recipe for disaster. 02:35:53.680 --> 02:35:56.239 But also if if the relationship isn't secure. 02:35:56.799 --> 02:36:12.079 So how we did it was we made sure to build a nice secure relationship and we knew we were going to be non-monogamous from the beginning, and we talked about what that would look like and what would be important and and we regularly work on our relationship. 02:36:12.239 --> 02:36:19.600 We don't treat it like, you know, oh, and now we all live happily ever after, and we don't have to put any attention on it or anything like that. 02:36:19.760 --> 02:36:22.639 So we don't really, jealousy isn't really an issue for us. 02:36:22.719 --> 02:36:36.399 Occasionally envy is right because we don't just because you're ethically non-monogamous, if you date separately, you don't always have the same partner options, you don't always have the same time. 02:36:36.879 --> 02:36:44.959 Um, and so like I would be working and he could go and have some fun and I'd be pissed because I had to work, you know, that that's envy, that's not jealousy. 02:36:45.040 --> 02:36:47.360 I wasn't could cared less about the other person. 02:36:47.440 --> 02:36:48.879 I wasn't worried about losing him. 02:36:49.200 --> 02:36:50.719 It was FOMO, right? 02:36:51.200 --> 02:36:53.760 Or it was actual missing out rather than fear of it. 02:36:53.840 --> 02:36:55.600 It's like I am actually missing out right now. 02:36:55.680 --> 02:36:56.559 This sucks. 02:36:56.799 --> 02:36:59.760 Um, but it's about lots of communication. 02:37:00.079 --> 02:37:07.200 Um, and you also, and I used to say this on the show, you need to go at the pace of the person who needs the slowest pace. 02:37:09.440 --> 02:37:10.000 Right? 02:37:10.479 --> 02:37:14.079 People make the mistake of wanting to just jump right into it. 02:37:14.399 --> 02:37:29.840 You need to go at the pace of the person who needs the slowest pace, allow people to get comfortable with things, do a little something, then reflect on it, listen to what your partner says, then listen to um people's feelings. 02:37:30.000 --> 02:37:48.399 I mean, how it's worked for me is because we process feelings, you know, and if need be, though I haven't in this relationship because I've been non-monogamous for so long, but if it came up, I would go see somebody to have somebody outside of me who had no skin in the game facilitate. 02:37:49.120 --> 02:37:55.920 If it was so intense that I felt like I couldn't talk with him about it, then I would have somebody help us with that. 02:37:56.559 --> 02:38:00.159 Um, there's nothing wrong with seeking out a professional. 02:38:00.639 --> 02:38:05.680 The reason professionals are useful is because they have no skin in the game. 02:38:06.639 --> 02:38:09.760 A good professional should not care what the outcome is. 02:38:09.920 --> 02:38:16.719 Like I don't care if you come to me, I don't care if you just you you come to me and you decide actually we're monogamous. 02:38:17.920 --> 02:38:21.760 I am not invested in you being something for me. 02:38:21.920 --> 02:38:25.600 I'm invested in you making the best decision for the two of you. 02:38:32.159 --> 02:38:45.200 Um and it could even start just from you know, it might not start as an official non-monogamy monogamous thing, but it might be, you know, as they did on the great sex experiment, the whole thing of just uh wanting a threesome or whatever it may be. 02:38:45.360 --> 02:38:59.120 I think it's just that whole thing of um uh people uh um just not being secure in their emotional side of their relationship, really, that they somehow confuse the two things. 02:38:59.360 --> 02:39:04.719 Obviously, sex and emotions go together sometimes, but a lot of the time people can divorce the two things. 02:39:04.799 --> 02:39:10.319 But I think people aren't always confident, they're insecure about their own relationships generally. 02:39:10.479 --> 02:39:18.479 I think the big fear is that oh, I'd love to do that, but what if so and so gets too close to somebody? 02:39:18.799 --> 02:39:26.319 What if we we have regular non-monogamous encounters with this person and it gets a bit uh deeper and do you know what I mean? 02:39:26.399 --> 02:39:27.920 So I think that's the problem, isn't it? 02:39:28.000 --> 02:39:31.520 And that's the area which people don't really address, I think, sometimes. 02:39:31.760 --> 02:39:35.520 Well, and so the thing is is that people that's monogamous thinking. 02:39:36.799 --> 02:39:45.280 People think that you can only have one or the other, just like people think that in terms of sexuality, you can only have one or the other. 02:39:45.840 --> 02:39:51.280 And so it's we're indoctrinated into that throughout our lives. 02:39:51.440 --> 02:39:58.319 And so it's getting people to recognize when that's the thinking, like your partner isn't looking to replace you, right? 02:39:58.559 --> 02:40:02.479 Um, I I'm not looking to replace my husband, I'm not looking to live with anyone else. 02:40:02.639 --> 02:40:03.840 I don't want a threpple. 02:40:03.920 --> 02:40:05.920 I don't, you know, I don't want any of that, right? 02:40:06.799 --> 02:40:12.399 What I want in my relationships, I have a girlfriend and I have and I have uh my husband's male. 02:40:12.559 --> 02:40:16.719 So, you know, I have a long-term girlfriend that I get something different from that relationship. 02:40:16.799 --> 02:40:21.520 It's a wonderful relationship, but I'm not looking for like a romance moving in together with that. 02:40:21.680 --> 02:40:22.799 She's got a husband too. 02:40:22.879 --> 02:40:23.840 It works beautifully. 02:40:24.000 --> 02:40:34.159 So it's like understanding and thinking more broadly about what relationships could look like, and that you're not looking to replace something. 02:40:34.239 --> 02:40:44.879 I had a friend who used to say that um he thought that he was quite in this way, he was quite um he said he he thought like an engineer. 02:40:45.040 --> 02:40:46.239 That was the way he put it. 02:40:46.399 --> 02:40:50.239 Um, I think probably today somebody would call him autistic, right? 02:40:50.639 --> 02:40:52.159 But that's how he identified. 02:40:52.239 --> 02:40:58.479 He he thought like an engineer, and he was like, he looks for the the role that isn't being filled. 02:40:59.200 --> 02:41:01.360 You know, I don't have one of these. 02:41:02.159 --> 02:41:06.239 So I'd like to find one of these, and I'd like to find one of those. 02:41:06.319 --> 02:41:08.639 And I said, Well, what if you'd like to have many of them? 02:41:08.719 --> 02:41:11.360 And he said, That doesn't work for me, right? 02:41:11.920 --> 02:41:12.319 Right. 02:41:12.479 --> 02:41:15.920 So for him, the way he made sense of it, it was great, you know. 02:41:16.079 --> 02:41:19.840 So he had, you know, one male partner and one female partner. 02:41:19.920 --> 02:41:22.959 If one of those went away, he then had an opening. 02:41:23.360 --> 02:41:24.799 It's wonderful. 02:41:25.440 --> 02:41:31.840 I mean the upshow, the upshow is we're talking about this, which is fantastic, but so many people just don't talk about any of it, do they? 02:41:32.159 --> 02:41:34.399 Well, and so many people don't talk about sex, period. 02:41:34.479 --> 02:41:35.040 End of. 02:41:35.200 --> 02:41:38.159 You know, so the the first thing is communicate. 02:41:38.559 --> 02:41:40.399 Ready to ask a question of your own? 02:41:40.559 --> 02:41:44.559 Send an email now to info at maidenmanchester.tv. 02:41:44.719 --> 02:41:48.799 And in the subject line, say for the attention of bisexual brunch. 02:41:48.959 --> 02:41:51.600 And you might get featured on a future show. 02:41:51.840 --> 02:41:54.000 Don't be shy, they won't bite. 02:41:54.319 --> 02:41:59.120 And there'll be another ask a bisexual question towards the end of the show. 02:41:59.280 --> 02:42:05.200 Uh, now uh we are always getting lots of fan mail at bisexual brunch, which is fantastic. 02:42:05.280 --> 02:42:16.319 And we get it in various forms uh through social media, through email, uh, and sometimes uh on our fan mail page as part of the uh Buzz Sprout account that we have. 02:42:16.479 --> 02:42:31.440 Uh people leave messages on there, it's fantastic, but people tend not to leave messages with a name or where they're from, and it's nice to at least, you know, even if you don't want to give you a full name, it's nice to at least uh acknowledge you uh by your name or and where you're coming from because it's very interesting. 02:42:31.600 --> 02:42:42.000 Um, now um somebody's contacted us actually today, and uh I can see that they're from uh the UK, somewhere in the UK, but they haven't said where they're from and they haven't given a name. 02:42:42.079 --> 02:42:45.200 Uh but the message is this so much gratitude for the podcast. 02:42:45.360 --> 02:42:52.159 I'm steadily making my way through previous episodes, have learned so much and have particularly enjoyed hearing the diversity of stories. 02:42:52.399 --> 02:42:58.159 Might you consider looking at the interplay between faith, spirituality, and bisexuality in a future episode? 02:42:58.399 --> 02:43:03.360 A friend recommended this book to me, and it's the first in-depth study I've ever seen. 02:43:03.600 --> 02:43:05.920 Thought you might find it interesting too. 02:43:06.159 --> 02:43:10.639 Well, I would find it interesting, we would find it interesting, but we can't see it, there's no link. 02:43:10.799 --> 02:43:17.760 So I I don't know uh what the issue is with the fan mail, but people tend not to be able to send links and things. 02:43:17.840 --> 02:43:26.000 So probably the best thing to do would be to email us info at maidenmanchester.tv uh and we can liaise about this. 02:43:26.079 --> 02:43:35.440 But yes, we would be interested in doing a programme which uh looks at uh the inter interplay between uh faith, spirituality, and bisexuality, definitely. 02:43:35.520 --> 02:43:39.360 So please get in touch and we'll uh take it um take it from there. 02:43:39.440 --> 02:43:42.079 Uh but yeah, keep um your messages coming. 02:43:42.159 --> 02:43:45.520 Uh we love to hear from you and uh from all over the world. 02:43:45.600 --> 02:43:58.000 Uh and we'd like to know yeah, where you where you're coming from, because apparently we get to um 95% of the world, so it's nice to be able to name check some of the countries and places that um we're we're we're getting to on a regular basis. 02:43:58.239 --> 02:44:04.959 So as I said, uh there will be an Askabisexual coming up later, second Asker Bisexual in this uh this show. 02:44:05.280 --> 02:44:10.479 Before all that, uh we've got our bisexual journey story that's coming up next. 02:44:15.840 --> 02:44:19.360 You're listening to the bisexual brunch podcast. 02:44:20.079 --> 02:44:25.440 So it's bisexual brunch, and we have another bisexual journey story, this time quite a special one, actually. 02:44:25.520 --> 02:44:28.479 We're joined by the comedian Marianne Barabami. 02:44:28.799 --> 02:44:29.520 I think that's right. 02:44:29.600 --> 02:44:30.719 Did I get that right, Ariane? 02:44:31.040 --> 02:44:34.079 So I think you started the surname with the letter B. 02:44:34.159 --> 02:44:35.280 It's Meribani. 02:44:35.520 --> 02:44:37.600 But Meribani, Maribani, sorry. 02:44:38.639 --> 02:44:38.959 There you go. 02:44:39.680 --> 02:44:41.200 I'm sure you get that all the time. 02:44:41.520 --> 02:44:42.079 Yes. 02:44:42.799 --> 02:44:43.760 Well, fantastic. 02:44:43.840 --> 02:44:45.680 Thank you very much indeed for joining us now. 02:44:46.000 --> 02:44:54.319 You're talking to us from Edinburgh, where you're about to um uh go on stage later on your first um set for this uh this year's uh Edinburgh fringe. 02:44:54.399 --> 02:44:55.760 So I wish you luck with that. 02:44:55.920 --> 02:44:59.920 Um but obviously we want to talk to you about the bee, as it were. 02:45:00.000 --> 02:45:02.639 But you represent three bees, don't you? 02:45:02.799 --> 02:45:08.079 So you describe yourself as as brown, blind, and bi. 02:45:08.799 --> 02:45:13.120 Now that is a lot, isn't it, for today's audiences to get their head round. 02:45:13.520 --> 02:45:15.360 It's uh yeah, it is a lot. 02:45:15.520 --> 02:45:18.399 It's it's I'm a triple threat. 02:45:18.559 --> 02:45:23.680 Um, and it's I mean, my my show that I'm bringing to Edinburgh, How's Your Head? 02:45:23.920 --> 02:45:57.760 It sort of explores how those three identities interact with each other because they like the intersectional thing just really complicates everything and makes the journey of like acceptance and finding out, like figuring out who you are very much different because, like, okay, you've got sexuality, or like actually, like for me, the order is is probably the way I'd sort of state it in the thing. 02:45:57.840 --> 02:46:02.799 Like, I'm I'm blind or I'm brown, those two are sort of intersectional. 02:46:02.879 --> 02:47:17.440 Like, my parents are both Iranian, my family's all Iranian, so there's that side of it, um, and then being blind and being sort of navigating that, navigating the world in that sense, but then also being bisexual and how that interacts with both of those things, and they both have sort of complicated relationships with sexuality, with blindness, there's often a weird likeness around like people with disabilities or people that are blind, and like their feelings of attractiveness or their feelings of sort of ability to partake in sort of relationships and that that whole conversation, but then there's also the conversation about like no people from Iran and how they view like yep, which is also something I I talk about in the show, and how like it's not a thing that my family or any of my experiences ever presented me with any issues, but I still like because the narrative of like everyone from Iran is homophobic, um, that narrative sort of sat in my self-conscious for a while, which meant that it was all everything just got complicated. 02:47:17.600 --> 02:47:23.200 Um and yeah, the show, the show is sort of a we're we're out. 02:47:23.360 --> 02:47:32.479 I think I'm out the other side of like acceptance and like well, I'm making a show with it on the flyer, so I better be. 02:47:32.639 --> 02:47:45.280 Um tell us a little bit more then about navigating the Iranian side, uh, but then also tell us how that plays into your bisexual journey story when all that started. 02:47:45.520 --> 02:47:50.399 Yeah, I mean, well, so so I I was born in the the UK and I I grew up in here. 02:47:50.479 --> 02:47:53.760 So I've I've only been to Iran a couple of times. 02:47:54.000 --> 02:48:03.440 So my entire like upbringing has been very British, and my also my family are very sort of like accepted and like do whatever you want. 02:48:03.600 --> 02:48:07.760 Um, but it's the the all of the the things you're very lucky, you're very lucky. 02:48:07.920 --> 02:48:09.440 Yes, very, very lucky. 02:48:09.600 --> 02:48:18.719 Um, but I just had like the preconceptions of like, oh well, obviously Iran is homophobic and therefore everyone is. 02:48:18.879 --> 02:48:29.280 Um, but yeah, my so when I was, I think it was obviously so I'm I'm 27 um now, I'm 28 November. 02:48:29.520 --> 02:48:42.799 Um, so when I was yeah, a teenager, sort of 13, 14, it was the real sort of like tumbler days, and it was the real like YouTuber vloggy days. 02:48:43.280 --> 02:48:55.360 Um so I sort of came into the world of like sexuality in general through people like um, oh my god, what was his name? 02:48:55.520 --> 02:49:03.520 Tyler Oakley, Tyler Oakley and like Troy Svan when he was a he was a vlogger, he was a YouTuber and Conor Franter and people like that. 02:49:03.760 --> 02:49:11.440 And like the the big thing in those days was like the coming out video, and they they do their coming out videos. 02:49:11.760 --> 02:49:24.000 And I sort of that was my sort of first route into the sort of queerer world, I think watching those things and sort of like Tumblr was a sort of thing in those days. 02:49:24.159 --> 02:49:46.639 Um I apparently still is like I have a friend who was like my boyfriend's still really into Tumblr, and I was like, what the like okay, um, but yeah, it so I through that I was like, oh, and I I realized that I found like the idea of like men and boys attractive. 02:49:46.879 --> 02:50:04.399 Um and I would but I was still very much like, but I I also like I I I'm also like still attracted to to like women and I I didn't really know what it was. 02:50:05.040 --> 02:50:26.559 And for a while, I think I was like, I don't know what the situation is, but partly because I was even though again, like I say, I'm very fortunate in the fact that no nothing was like outwardly telling me um like be straight, do not be gay. 02:50:26.799 --> 02:50:36.159 Um, but I had the sort of like preceded societal shame around queerness in general. 02:50:36.559 --> 02:50:48.239 So I had like a weird moment of a few years of being like, am I do I actually like like both? 02:50:48.559 --> 02:50:59.840 Or am I just telling myself that I like both because I want to be like, yeah, I like but but but I am I am quote unquote normal. 02:51:00.000 --> 02:51:02.159 Like there's a part of me that is normal. 02:51:02.479 --> 02:51:05.920 There's a lot of people in in the bisexual world, we have this all the time. 02:51:06.079 --> 02:51:18.559 In fact, on this show, we're discussing this with uh a scientist from Sweden who talks about um the whole issue of of bisexual people just spending their entire life, periods of their lives, just questioning themselves. 02:51:18.799 --> 02:51:20.079 Am I am I this? 02:51:20.239 --> 02:51:20.959 Am I that? 02:51:21.200 --> 02:51:27.280 One day you get up and you very attracted to one gender and another, you think, oh my god, what that means I must be this, must be that. 02:51:27.360 --> 02:51:28.559 So is that how you felt? 02:51:28.639 --> 02:51:30.319 You were constantly questioning yourself. 02:51:30.559 --> 02:51:49.680 Yeah, it was it was well, I should be honest, it wasn't constantly questioning myself because I was also so I went to an all-boys private school in northwest of England, which you know presents its own things, and it was in the sort of yeah, I was I was there from 2010 to 20 like 17 or whatever. 02:51:49.920 --> 02:52:04.559 Um, and so at that point, it was it was very like it was accepted, but no, I don't think anybody at my school was out as gay or bisexual, and all boys schools sort of breed a again. 02:52:04.639 --> 02:52:28.319 I don't know if it's changed now, they breed a really weird sort of mix of homophobia with homoeroticism because it's just all of these like like all of these boys largely because there's a they're in a middle class area, like pretty much all white boys, like rich white boys, just like pent up, and it's like okay, so what what is going on? 02:52:28.639 --> 02:52:36.399 But I I wasn't questioning as much, it was just sort of ah, this is actually reflecting now. 02:52:36.559 --> 02:52:43.840 I probably was questioning, um, and there's there was a period, there's also I mean it's a thing that happens with blindness as well. 02:52:44.000 --> 02:52:53.520 That I I personally hate is when people ask for percentages, um, and they're like, So are we are we 50-50, or we 60-40? 02:52:53.680 --> 02:52:59.840 We 73rd, like we what and it's the same with blindness, it's the same with people are like, so how much can you say? 02:53:00.000 --> 02:53:10.719 I have more of an issue with it with the blindness, to be honest, because the way I describe it is I go, okay, so if I told you I have 20 vision, that for some reason would appease you. 02:53:10.879 --> 02:53:26.719 However, I don't have a side-by-side comparison, and if I flipped it on you and I said you with what you can see now are missing out on 80% of vision, you could not comprehend that. 02:53:26.879 --> 02:53:30.719 Like your brain, we're like 80% more than I see right now. 02:53:30.879 --> 02:53:32.319 Like, what could that possibly be? 02:53:32.639 --> 02:53:33.920 That's exactly the same. 02:53:34.079 --> 02:53:39.440 I know what I see, so to be like, Yeah, I see 20%, it's like, what did what does that mean? 02:53:39.600 --> 02:53:40.159 What does that mean? 02:53:40.319 --> 02:53:58.319 And it's it was the same with yeah, it was like percentage, and the percentage really it really shifted over the years, and to be honest, um, it's shifted in terms of like how I actually like find my age and how I'm moving through life. 02:53:58.559 --> 02:54:10.319 Like it started where I was like, oh yeah, I'm like I'm 70% straight, but it's also it's it's a weird thing to be like bisexuality is is half straight, half gay. 02:54:10.399 --> 02:54:12.719 Like there are two sides like no, it's its own thing. 02:54:12.879 --> 02:54:17.680 Um it changes, and now it's like, yeah, it's the other one. 02:54:17.840 --> 02:54:22.399 It's it, yeah, it's it's and it's so fluid, and I remember actually. 02:54:22.559 --> 02:54:27.200 So I went to um I went to drum school in London when I was 18. 02:54:27.760 --> 02:54:34.879 And I remember the first Christmas I came back, uh, saw all my friends who had like gone to university and stuff. 02:54:34.959 --> 02:54:47.760 Um, and we were like, I I from like being down in London was like immediately like, oh, okay, everyone is just accepting, especially in the art scene. 02:54:47.920 --> 02:54:53.280 Everyone was like, oh, it's just you don't have to even come out, it's not even a conversation. 02:54:53.680 --> 02:54:59.680 Um, I mean, the conversation was actually largely me telling people like, oh no, I am actually bisexual. 02:54:59.920 --> 02:55:34.239 People just assumed I was gay, like everybody in my year was like, we you were just and also to be fair, there's that thing of like you're just saying that you're bisexual, but you're clearly just and I'm like, no, no, that isn't um, but like I was I was very much in the the mindset of and also that the sort of the YouTuber scene from like years prior previously, I was so like in the mindset of uh sexuality is a spectrum, we are all on the spectrum. 02:55:34.399 --> 02:55:40.000 I don't think I think very few people are 100% straight or 100% gay. 02:55:40.319 --> 02:55:45.520 Um, and but did you have did you ever have um you know this is the issue, isn't it? 02:55:45.600 --> 02:55:49.200 Which which we come back and back to on on this show all the time. 02:55:49.360 --> 02:55:54.479 It is that you've got that questioning thing, you've got that trying to work out you yourself, etc. 02:55:54.799 --> 02:55:59.760 You can accept and understand that your sexuality is fluid, you you get that because that's how you. 02:56:00.159 --> 02:59:05.120 feel and all the rest of it but there's very little being reflected back is there nobody ever talks about it do they no button the word bisexual doesn't get doesn't get discussed does it really yeah the idea of it being a spectr it's something that you have to seek out and be in that world because at that that that first christmas i remember coming back to my friends we had like a curry night poker thing and i was like telling them like about sex i don't know how it came up but like being like sexuality is a spectrum we are all whatever and they were like no no i'm 100 straight 100 straight 100 straight and then two years later i think they all one by one like had conversations with me like you know what that thing you said in uh in 2018 or 2017 about like her sexuality is a spectrum i kind of get it i think i'm like 10 like i think i'm like whatever and i'm like yeah there we go there we go we're all we're all coming to the idea of it this is the the the the issue you're right there and that was obviously what you say with mainly with with with with straight people but it's the same with gay men isn't it gay men can't get it either they're like oh because the I think it's just easier right it's it's what is easiest to navigate the world and it feels like if you're like on that spectrum I know I said I hate percentages but uh our percentages with um like identities I love percentages in the real world um I'm a I'm a stat fiend but um if like if if you are like close to one side and you're like I am pretty much gay but there are times where whatever or I am straight but every now and and you but you go but it will make my life so much easier if I just ignore it if I just say I am one way or the other because even if they are aware of the concept of bisexuality they're like that is a 50-50 split that is like I should date both and be fully attracted to both and it's like no you don't need to like you can be in a straight relationship and then find one out of 200 people like oh I kind of failed and that doesn't mean you're less like like you you love your wife any less that's just like it's yeah it's it's so it's so interesting that people and I I hope it's improving in schools and stuff now because also in schools that it's never talked about I mean in my school like being gay was pretty much never talked about but being bisexual certainly never talked about and it was like you are either you flip the switch and then you hear about the word bisexuality and you think okay that's the middle of it and there's there's a there's a stop for it. 02:59:05.280 --> 02:59:11.040 Where it's like no it's a it's a fader it's like it can move up and down it can continue to move up and down. 02:59:11.200 --> 03:02:02.159 Yeah no absolutely absolutely the it's it's interesting it'd be interesting to get your take on this because you're in you're obviously in a situation whereby as you say you call yourself uh brown blind and and and die and that's part of your your your set so you're communicating that to people about the bisexual thing and I bet there's a lot of people in the audience who are thinking oh I don't quite get this understand this um but at least you're doing it whereas so many um people in the creative world ride it all the time I went went to see a film yesterday called uh on the sea which is lovely uh it's about um two guys are meeting north wales one guy is um is in a marriage um loving his wife and all the rest of it and they but they anyway anyway they're on the sea they they're they're working on the sea and they go um to like each other and things happen or whatever but it but the guy is clearly the older guy is it's an older and younger guy one in his 50s one in his 30s uh the older guy is clearly still very much attached to his wife but it was never promoted at all as a bisexual film the word doesn't get mentioned within it doesn't get mentioned in the discussions with him and his wife when then when she eventually says that he's had a relationship the only thing you get is is him saying as the older guy to the younger guy when the younger guys get a bit peed off with the situation he says well you know my my relationship with wife is is substantial it is important whatever so you get the impression there that actually yes this guy is bisexual he's got an issue he he does like men he likes women but there's no mention of it so a lot of the audience who are going to watch that are thinking I would think a lot of the gay male audience are thinking oh well there you go it was just gay all along he was he was hiding it all his life he's oppression whatever um and there'd be other people thinking similar kind of thing he's now made a choice he's gone you know so do you see what I mean it's so so I suppose what what I'm trying to say is do you why do you think it is why do you think it is that society struggles with even just acknowledging it I think it's probably a large part of it is marketing to be honest because the way that the marketing world has sort of worked in either like when you're trying to sell a show or sell a product or whatever but also kind of when you're again I think things are slowly shifting even like in writers' rooms because I'm I also write for TV and stuff so I'm in some writers' rooms and the the like you when you're writing characters you're like okay we need to make it clear it needs to be understandable and it's a real chicken in the egg situation because it's like okay well people need to see these things and be challenged and see them on screen and on stages and whatever and out and about in order to change their perceptives to uh or perceptions to then understand it. 03:02:02.399 --> 03:02:17.360 But then you're like okay but I would like them to like laugh at this thing or like follow this thing and not be thinking about oh what is the sexuality of this person and rather just like go along with the story. 03:02:17.440 --> 03:04:01.360 So you're like yeah it's a real chicken and the egg but I also I think it's just easier for a lot of the I think potentially older like generation who are like the gatekeepers to be like when we're marketing this okay we want to market this as straight women and we don't want to be like I don't know like your your husband might like have eyes for somebody else and that person might be a matten um or like your um yeah and we know it's right we know it's there everywhere we know it's a lot of loads of older guys who speak to us on bisexual brunch you know coming out in their 40s 50s 60s they're in marriages you know they clearly are bisexual and they've been all their lives you know it's a huge thing it's a huge thing also they I I think it's also interesting I think with the sense of there's there's I think a difference between hiding something and not realizing that it's there and I think that probably takes a different mental load um because if you're hiding it all your life then that is that is heavy and that is horrible um to be like to to know something within you and just suppress it and be like it it'll be easier for me if I suppress it but it's it's weirder potential or it's it's it's a stranger feeling if later in life you realize like you you see and I've I've experienced that of but people sort of seeing my show and going oh I didn't I didn't even realize that I was like that's crazy. 03:04:01.520 --> 03:05:07.280 And then when you and I talk about it well it was in a sort of older version of my show where I I talk about how um suddenly the moment you realize something a weight is lifted that has been there for so long you didn't even realize it was there you'd zeroed the scales but when it's lifted you're like oh my god I can breathe that's quite I didn't realize like for the past 60 years I've been feeling this thing and it's that that's what it and you put a name to it and you're like absolutely so we're we're discussing this now academically as it were yeah but these are you know and I'll just just just a bit of a name check to a couple other things obviously there's been heated rivalry recently there's been heartstopper both of which have tackled bisexuality head on actually but apart from um uh heartstopper where the main character in it does actually keep saying I'm by by the way I'm not gay I'm buy I'm by keep you have to keep telling people that um apart from that generally in the publicity and everything it it it's all hidden you know what I mean but I suppose what I'm saying is that we're talking about this academically as an issue kind of thing. 03:05:07.440 --> 03:05:39.120 But in reality these issues do have a an impact don't they in the sense that if people aren't seeing their lives reflected back at them if they can't discuss their sexuality openly if they can't think oh I'm gonna I'm I want to be in a relationship with a man or a woman but I want to be open with them to say that I am actually I do actually fancy both genders or multiple genders or whatever um if you can't be that open that is going to cause issues for you isn't it mentally over time. 03:05:39.360 --> 03:06:01.920 And that means what I'm trying to say is there are a lot of people who are bisexual probably not you and me because we've come we've both come to terms with it in different ways in in our own ways but for a lot of people um you know that they're sort of um they're isolated aren't they very isolated from the world around them because of the fact that they cannot be honest about their bisexuality. 03:06:02.159 --> 03:06:11.280 And you know what I'm actually reflecting on it it's also again this this might sort of be I can know but it's also it's it is practical. 03:06:11.440 --> 03:09:19.520 It's what so uh I have a theatre company called Floorboard and uh we I I co-write the shows with Sam bro and Clay Palmer and Josh Roche um and the the the to our first show it was called Can I swear can I is that well yeah so it's it's a mother effing of it's a motherfucking pleasure that's what the show's called I've been saying it's a mother effing pleasure for so because everyone's like you don't swear on our thing um and um so it's it's it's it was a show about blindness that did very well it sort of we went to New York and US tour and stuff um but in that show it's mainly about blindness but my character is basically me um or a version of me um and so in the writing of it he was like always talking about being bisexual but there are there are jokes in it that I make that are easier to make if I just say the character is gay and we ended up just saying that this character is gay because the we didn't have the time to talk to an audience about it make sure they understand it and then be like okay but I'm still making these these things these jokes these things that are happening are still true they are still the same thing but it feels like to describe it as like having a bisexual flair to it you have to like do a bit of precursor and do a bit more and in that show we're already doing a bunch of like to the audience this is what you think a blind person is like but I need to rewire your brain so we couldn't really deal with sexuality again but then yeah in this second show it's called what's the fucking point that we're premiering at Bristol in October um so that my character in that is a bisexual and it felt very important when writing it that I wrote that into the show but also we still like deal with it in the show that he he keeps saying he's a bisexual and it's sort of a part of the comedy I guess that everybody around him and his friends are like you've never once expressed expressed attraction to a woman and he's like yeah but that's how can you be bisexual how can you and like yeah there's I mean there's a whole thread about because that that that show our second show is about like diagnosis and identity and like medical diagnosis and identity and like neurodiversity and whatever or when that becomes your identity and it's intra it then boy I think there's I don't know if it's still on the script we're going through some cuts now before Bristol um and some changes but there's a thing about like um a brain scan and it's like okay so could you scan someone who's bisexual and tell they were bisexual could you scan a gay person tell they were gay you just get like the the questions of like one of the friends in the in the script this might be a it's not a spoiler it's a spoiler for a joke but one of them goes like okay well name me a pair of tits you like and he just goes ah and then the the the I I won't spoil the name that he gets but it's it's very funny. 03:09:19.680 --> 03:11:01.520 I think because I wrote it yeah of course of course so let's talk a little bit more about that then because about how you deal with bisexuality because when you first started out on this comedy journey uh as opposed to your bisexual journey which obviously went back further talking about your comedy journey obviously you've got various things in your identity to uh focus in on did you ever question talking about bisexuality do you ever think oh do i really do I really want to go there no uh so I essentially well actually I still kind of do it in the show um where like there are jokes that I want to make and sometimes I'll just be like I'm gay but also I I say that I'm bisexual but to me and it might it'd be interesting to hear also what you think by saying like I'm gay by the blah blah whatever even though I've said I'm bisexual that to me is like an interchangeable word and it's like oh that that is a side to to it um but I've I've always felt like when I when I made the transition to stand up when I the because I my my background is um writer and an actor um so like for in 2021 we started floorboard and I've been doing that um where I'm sort of writing me but also like it's a character and I'm an actor but then um I moved into stand up uh at the beginning of 25 because in 2024 I had brain cancer um and I nearly died um so and I decided like I've always wanted to do stand up I'm gonna pull my finger out you're gonna see you're gonna you might it was time to see the funny side of life is what you just said. 03:11:01.760 --> 03:13:05.840 Well no time well so my career up until that point has always been comedy like I've always been a comedy writer and a comedy actor but I've never done stand up and I was like okay I've always wanted to do this so if I get out of this hospital that's the first thing I'm gonna do so I yeah as soon as I came out I I started doing it and I I think I've always known because I've I've wanted to do stand up for for ages um and stand-up is is sort of you well you can do characters and you can have different whatever but in its purest form stand up is you on stage you are bearing all and I feel like you can't do it properly unless you are like you're out to talk about all your identities like don't feel the need to at all like you can never address it once but if you are hiding it or if you're explicitly not mentioning it and like dodging the issue then that becomes like you can't be funny because an audience is not like when you walk on stage an audience needs to go okay this person's totally themselves I know who they are I get it if they're questioning then they're not listening to the jokes um but that yeah that that was a real thing of like also the the B cubed I used to call it like brown line by um I I sort of had that as a thought I think in like 2018 when I'm still in drama school of like that's fun at some point in my life I will do my like I will move into doing a solo show whether it'll be comedy whether it'll be like a one person show whatever I was like that's gonna be the base of it um and that feels like a strong base so I think mainly the alliteration to be honest of like okay I'm already brown I'm already blind so well I have to say I'm bisexual I can't to be honest if the other two words began with G, I would probably be much more closeted and be like no I'm gay because of the alliteration it has to work. 03:13:06.479 --> 03:14:43.360 Absolutely absolutely so in terms of because the whole thing about being bisexual is that um we're always as people we're always coming out as it were we're always having to explain ourselves aren't we so presumably a lot of that is part of the comedy is it you talk maybe talk about that whole issue but also I don't know whether this is whether you've experienced this or not but I think going between the different genders is quite funny as well isn't it in the sense of the experiences you have with men or women or different genders that's quite interesting in itself I think that people you know the the the the the the chemistry and the mechanics of it all and whatever yeah are quite interesting and quite and can be quite funny I would presume yeah it it can and also like the reactions from people of like yeah it's it's interesting I mean to be honest the um so the blindness also presents another hurdle because I think normally when a comedian comes on stage who is sort of like me and is a bit campy or a bit flamboyant people go that guy's gay um and then they have to sort of be like but I also am I'm bisexual I I like like I like arrange um but then for me when you leave with the blindness or if people see me out and about with a cane they immediately the the entire concept of sort of sexuality or any form of sexual life is sort of a a shutter comes down on it. 03:14:43.520 --> 03:17:48.719 Like we don't see those people as sexually available like it's just they're just they're they're non-sexual beings so you sort of have to be like a no I am like I do engage but also I I have this other thing where I'm attracted so it's it's interesting and I I say I find that for for me especially and what I'm doing in this show is I've found that because people have such a strong preconception of seeing a blind person and being like you just don't have any form of like sexual identity this is not a thing I have to sort of do a bit of shock humor I guess with like very well some very express but like the gay stuff to like sort of to sort of like it's like the ice bath it's like shock us shock us now give us give us a give us a so I have a bit about um in my show about contracting STI um and how when I went to so I I got gonorrhea um and when I uh mum and dad hate this bit uh but when I uh went into the um sexual health for a jab it actually happened my sexual healthness had my test results on her computer screen and she was aware that I was there for a gonorrhea jab but she started the meeting by looking at a screen and saying okay so you've tested positive for gonorrhea in your throat and in your anus so what's happened here then it's like what happened here then it's pretty fucking clear what happened here like it's not so it's like yeah but so I I feel like I have to do things like that to be like I am in that world like you like the the three things exist together there's not a hierarchy it's not like okay because he's blind he doesn't do any of the the sex stuff he doesn't do any of the and it feels like I have to go that for me I have to go that far because if I was just like um I had leather cuddle with a woman and it was nice and everyone's like oh isn't that sweet isn't that like I like in the yeah and they're like oh that's sweet but he's obviously not engaging any of the other stuff so I have to yeah how can he how could he you know how could he how could he see how could he so how are you finding the um the stand-up then and how with regards to your different intersexualities yeah what response do you get from people you mentioned earlier on that people have come up to you are bisexual and and said oh I didn't realize whatever and it's helped them tell us a little bit about the feedback you get from people yeah I mean so I've I've only been doing comedy really since since last April um so it's it's a pretty new thing but I I fallen in love with it. 03:17:48.799 --> 03:17:49.360 I love it. 03:17:49.520 --> 03:17:52.000 I love being able to be on stage and be me. 03:17:53.120 --> 03:18:02.079 And I feel like for the first time in my life and the real it's a theme during the show that for the first time in my life I feel I feel like I'm just The authentic version of myself. 03:18:02.639 --> 03:18:06.479 But what's interesting, so the the show that I'm doing in Edinburgh, how's your head? 03:18:06.559 --> 03:18:07.600 It's an hour show. 03:18:07.760 --> 03:18:08.959 So I have time. 03:18:09.200 --> 03:18:13.680 Like people are sat there and I can be like, these are my identities. 03:18:13.760 --> 03:18:15.600 We are gonna explore them all. 03:18:15.920 --> 03:18:24.959 But um on the circuit, like most nights a week, I do gigs, and most of those are 10 minutes, like 10 minutes lots, you're on for 10 minutes, 15 minutes, whatever. 03:18:25.200 --> 03:18:31.360 And sometimes you don't have the time, or your material is not about any of those things. 03:18:31.600 --> 03:18:43.840 And so for me, I feel like the thing I have to address is the blindness because um people like something might happen. 03:18:44.159 --> 03:18:55.280 I might like fumble with a mic, or I might like time myself up in the whatever, and I can't then be like, oh, I'm blind by the way that that feel that that destroys the flow. 03:18:55.440 --> 03:19:03.200 So I have to immediately when I go on, say I'm blind, um, and I tell like a quick joke about being blind, and then I move on to the rest of my set. 03:19:03.520 --> 03:19:13.760 In November, I was doing a gig in London Bridge where um I was in the bar afterwards with uh uh uh the MC Lewis Howard, great guy, uh, and we were we were chatting. 03:19:13.920 --> 03:19:21.200 I had my cane on me, and these two Aish guys came downstairs and they were like, Oh my god, you're actually blind, and I was like, Yeah, and they're like, We thought it was a bit. 03:19:21.280 --> 03:19:32.959 And I'm like, how awful of a comedian would I be if I came on stage, said I was blind, did a pretty subpar joke, to be honest, and then went on to talking about my friend's children. 03:19:33.120 --> 03:19:36.239 Like, that would be a really that'd be awful. 03:19:36.399 --> 03:19:43.600 Um, so I now like I walk on with my cane to like set people's expectations of what a blind person is. 03:19:43.760 --> 03:19:49.120 I throw the cane, I do a thing, and I subvert their expectations, and then I feel like I can move on. 03:19:49.200 --> 03:20:06.000 And then depending on what the set is, um, and like if I'm talking about sex and relationships, again, in 10 minutes, it it's annoying, but in in a 10-minute slot, okay, so you spent a minute and a half, two minutes talking about the blindness. 03:20:06.159 --> 03:20:14.000 I'm then gonna go into the um the DSDI bit, which is an eight-minute section, right? 03:20:14.559 --> 03:20:25.040 I I'm not at no point do I say that I'm gay, but I it it sort of interrupts the flow, I think, to be like I'm bisexual. 03:20:25.120 --> 03:20:32.639 You don't like none of that is relevant to you, but the moment I say the word, it makes you go, uh, and you're not listening. 03:20:32.959 --> 03:20:36.239 So that bit I just talk about, like I go, yeah. 03:20:36.319 --> 03:20:42.399 So I contracted gonorrhea and whatever, and four days after having sex with a gentleman and whatever. 03:20:42.559 --> 03:21:01.840 So, but then I so I never mention anything either way, but everybody just assumes that it's it's gay, like that I'm I'm gay completely because I'm talking about gay sex and talking about like an experience that I had on that side, but then to be like, also I'm bisexual, it's like, oh why is he bringing that up? 03:21:01.920 --> 03:21:04.319 Like, what don't complicate it. 03:21:04.479 --> 03:21:14.079 Um, and I I personally in my own sets, I haven't found a great bit about bisexuality. 03:21:14.159 --> 03:21:18.319 I'm hunting for it, but I haven't found a great bit in stand-up. 03:21:18.479 --> 03:21:21.200 I think what's the fucking point of the next floorboard show? 03:21:21.520 --> 03:21:26.719 That I think is again blowing spoke my my own ass here. 03:21:26.879 --> 03:21:30.239 But I think, and I co-wrote it, so it's also it's all of us. 03:21:30.399 --> 03:21:36.000 Um, like I think that addresses it in a really fun, funny way, and it's a play. 03:21:36.239 --> 03:21:40.239 Um, so like that feels like a great outlet for that. 03:21:40.319 --> 03:21:56.000 But I'd I'd love to find a way to get it into the comedy where it feels relevant because otherwise you're just dropping it in and uh in the way, well, people think people automatically think also automatically think you know, beyond beyond comedy, just generally as a somebody who's bisexual. 03:21:56.079 --> 03:22:06.399 If you say, if you literally tell people in a room about bisexual, they think you're boasting, they think yo, you you you you oh you just what you're boasting about you have lots of sex with lots of people all the time. 03:22:06.559 --> 03:22:07.120 That's what they think. 03:22:07.280 --> 03:22:07.920 Yeah, you know what I mean. 03:22:08.239 --> 03:23:03.600 It's also like yeah, even like without being on stage, you can be telling a group of people a story about um an encounter with someone or about a partner or about whatever, and the assumption is like, oh, you're either if it's if it's a story like man on man or woman on woman, you're like, cool, you're uh you're a gay man or you're a lesbian, or actually, to be honest, like so female bisexuality is also interesting, and I'm probably not the person, I'm definitely not the person to speak on it, but um, like I feel like that is slightly more excused if like in I I think people accept it more if like women talk about like flings with other women or like kissing like their friends in a nightclub, and while they've got away, people are like, ah, that's fun, that's cool. 03:23:03.760 --> 03:23:09.280 Um, but when a guy says it, they're like, Oh, that's hold on. 03:23:09.520 --> 03:23:18.559 Um but yeah, but when you're telling somebody just a story, they immediately go, Cool, this is I'm gonna take it as red and take it at face value. 03:23:18.719 --> 03:23:38.479 And again, these sort of the art of storytelling, even even when like not on stage, not on a script, when you're in the pub telling a story to a group of friends, the art of storytelling and the way that you sort of make a story feel engaging subconsciously, is you give people the facts they need to know, you sort of take them along a journey and you see breadcrumbs. 03:23:38.879 --> 03:23:47.360 When you when you're telling a story about one thing, and then you throw in, oh, and by the way, I am bisexual, but this story doesn't mention it at all. 03:23:47.760 --> 03:23:52.719 It that interrupts the flow of the story, and everyone that you're telling a story to is like, why have they thrown that? 03:23:53.280 --> 03:23:54.639 Is that gonna be relevant? 03:23:54.799 --> 03:24:13.200 It's sort of a similar thing of like like there was a period where comedians would always talk about like the whole um you know, when when people talk about the race of a person um while they're telling a story, and they're like, Oh, yeah, so there was this Middle Eastern guy, and he they're like, I really hope his race has something to do. 03:24:13.280 --> 03:24:16.799 I hope it comes up in the story, and it never does. 03:24:16.959 --> 03:24:18.239 And it's like it's the same. 03:24:18.319 --> 03:24:23.520 If somebody goes like I'm bisexual, but I did it, it's like, when's the flip gonna happen? 03:24:23.680 --> 03:24:28.399 Everyone's got this sort of thing in their mind of like, what's yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. 03:24:29.120 --> 03:24:36.079 But there is there is and you're gonna explore this as you say in in in your your um in in Bristol, I think you mentioned to me earlier. 03:24:36.239 --> 03:25:04.079 Um, but the the um there is for those of us who are bisexual, there is comedy in it, in the sense of just having to keep explaining things, yeah, and and people not understanding the fact that our world is is a reality for us, and that they don't somehow get that because they've never they've just never envisaged it, never questioned it, never thought about it in any way, shape, or form. 03:25:04.239 --> 03:25:13.920 I remember the first time we did a a trial run of bisexual brunch, I was in a studio uh in Salford, and a friend of mine I've known for years and years and years came and sat in. 03:25:14.079 --> 03:25:20.399 She was there doing something, something else, uh, but she was there waiting for me, and we she was listening into what was going on. 03:25:20.559 --> 03:25:27.520 And I came out of the uh the booth where we were doing the recording, and she was like, I don't get it, I don't understand it. 03:25:27.600 --> 03:25:29.280 What do you you're bisexual? 03:25:29.440 --> 03:25:31.120 What what what what what do you mean? 03:25:31.280 --> 03:25:38.239 It was like it was it was it was just bizarre, and she's very intelligent, and obviously it's probably known lots of people are bisexual in the past. 03:25:38.479 --> 03:25:41.440 Um it's it's it's it's weird. 03:25:41.520 --> 03:25:44.559 And so I suppose what I'm trying to say is I think there is comedy in it. 03:25:45.040 --> 03:25:49.760 It's the issue is I think is uh connecting with the audience, isn't it? 03:25:49.920 --> 03:26:01.600 Because even those people, even those of us who are uh who are bisexual and are actively bisexual and doing things bisexual oriented, as it were, often aren't open about being bisexual. 03:26:01.760 --> 03:26:10.159 So therefore, it's difficult for people who are bisexual to respond and to react to that in a way because they're thinking, what do other people think? 03:26:10.239 --> 03:26:13.600 Can I really engage with this person who is talking about bisexuality? 03:26:14.159 --> 03:26:15.680 I understand, but do you know what I'm coming from? 03:26:15.760 --> 03:26:17.280 It's yes, it's absolutely difficult, isn't it? 03:26:17.680 --> 03:26:18.159 Absolutely. 03:26:18.319 --> 03:26:25.840 So again, I'm gonna go back to blindness and then talk about the bisexual because I think I think that the learnings from sort of connection, yeah. 03:26:26.079 --> 03:26:32.399 There's a connection, and it feels like the blindness has sort of the stigmas times 10. 03:26:32.719 --> 03:27:02.559 Um, so with the I think it's really important that I think for me, comedy is the best way or the most efficient way that I have found to make people feel comfortable about an issue, then they lower their guard and you can Trojan horse them with like changing their perspective on what a ex-person is, a bisexual person, a person with Middle Eastern heritage, a person with whatever, anything. 03:27:02.799 --> 03:27:34.719 So with our first Joe and the blindness, we were very like the jokes that we wrote in that show was very much how non-disabled people interact with blind people and faux pas and things, and like we allowed them to laugh because we and I think that's also the crucial thing that we wrote the script, like we are in we wrote the script, we're performing it on stage, and that's also that that's what I love about stand-up as well. 03:27:34.799 --> 03:27:38.479 Like, I'm the conductor, I'm holding the button, I'm giving you permission to laugh. 03:27:38.799 --> 03:27:44.399 So we are saying a thing, we are doing a thing, you are laughing, we are in control of that. 03:27:44.479 --> 03:27:48.079 You are not laughing at us, you don't feel like you're laughing at us. 03:27:48.239 --> 03:27:55.120 We're giving you permission, you recognize the thing that you're doing, and then we can sort of talk about that in a similar way. 03:27:55.280 --> 03:28:12.479 In the second show, hopefully, what we're doing is that with bisexuality, we are presenting an audience because comedy is when you when you recognize something, when you see something that you're like, oh, I get that, I do that, I've done that, I see whatever. 03:28:12.719 --> 03:28:17.920 So when again we talk about like I'm like I'm bisexual, and they're like, name a pair of tits you like. 03:28:18.000 --> 03:28:29.600 They're like, oh my god, yeah, because I kind of think that, or I might not have been as as brash about it as that, but yeah, I I I sort of wonder about those things. 03:28:29.760 --> 03:28:52.079 So we present them, but crucially, the the the joke isn't on the bisexual person, but also the joke isn't on the audience, but we are like I am writing that and I'm performing that, I'm in control, and so the because the thing that with blindness, but also probably like sexuality and other things. 03:28:52.959 --> 03:29:02.239 If you attack an audience, if you go like these are your preconceptions, and those are wrong, those are absolutely wrong. 03:29:02.319 --> 03:29:05.040 You're a horrible person for thinking that, and you're wrong. 03:29:05.200 --> 03:29:06.799 These this is the way you should think. 03:29:06.959 --> 03:29:10.719 With blindness, they just go, okay, well, fuck you then. 03:29:10.799 --> 03:29:15.920 Like, I'm not I'm not gonna engage in it, like I I just I'm not gonna engage in it at all. 03:29:16.000 --> 03:29:20.719 I'll just ignore blind people and I just won't like hire them, and I won't like have friends who are blind, whatever. 03:29:20.799 --> 03:29:23.280 They'll just go, okay, I won't, I won't do it. 03:29:23.520 --> 03:29:26.079 It's sort of probably similar with with sexuality. 03:29:26.319 --> 03:29:28.959 It's like you can't knock you can't knock them over the head, though, basically. 03:29:29.200 --> 03:29:43.200 Yeah, you you can't you can't tell them like because if you tell somebody off that never come, it's then you're it's really hard to to to move on because you're like, oh, you're wrong, and it's like okay, but what is the right way to do it? 03:29:43.520 --> 03:29:56.319 And the best way to to tell someone the right way to do it is by going, here's a bit of comedy, here's what you think, and then they themselves laugh and go, Oh my god, that is ridiculous. 03:29:56.479 --> 03:30:09.360 Because they might not have been like, name me a pair of tits you like, but they may well have asked a stupid question, and by taking to the extreme and seeing somebody go, name me a pair of tits you like, they're like, Oh my god, that's ridiculous. 03:30:09.600 --> 03:30:18.159 Oh, but I have probably said things that are kind of like that, and they come to their own conclusions, and then they yeah, yeah, good, good, good. 03:30:18.319 --> 03:30:25.680 So you say so you've had people come up to you who've said that that the bisexual kind of thing is connected with them for the first time, yeah. 03:30:25.760 --> 03:30:29.280 And has that been people of all ages and ranges and whatever? 03:30:29.520 --> 03:30:51.840 Yeah, and a lot a few people have sort of told me stories about them coming out as bisexual, and I had one person, um I won't say who they are, obviously, uh, but they uh they told me that they came out to their dad as bisexual, and their dad was just like, okay, so what does that mean? 03:30:52.079 --> 03:31:01.360 Um and they she just explained it and she was like, Well, I'm attracted, but and he was like, I don't know, that's just normal, right? 03:31:01.440 --> 03:31:20.239 Like, that's everyone is sort of attracted to both, and she was like, No, that that that you that that's like bisexual, and then he her dad was like, Oh, I guess I I think he was like 70, 80, and was like, Oh, okay. 03:31:20.399 --> 03:31:23.520 And she was like, I dad, I think you're also a bisexual. 03:31:23.920 --> 03:31:26.319 He was like, Oh, that's cool. 03:31:26.559 --> 03:31:52.399 Um, and like, yeah, it's again, it's it's that it's that difference of like hiding something or being ashamed of it, but also not knowing something is there, and just thinking, but that that that was a nice story because it was like, Oh, you you just had no idea that that was even a thing, but also you didn't think that there was any stigma around here, you just believed that everybody in the world navigated the world like you. 03:31:52.639 --> 03:31:58.000 You're like, Well, of course, when I see divers on the Olympics, I'm like, Oh, okay. 03:31:58.959 --> 03:32:01.040 Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely it's fantastic, fantastic. 03:32:01.200 --> 03:32:02.559 Well, it's great that you've had that feedback. 03:32:02.719 --> 03:32:08.319 So, in terms of you personally, then, um we could talk forever, obviously, but we can't, unfortunately. 03:32:08.479 --> 03:32:28.959 Um, you you I want to come back in a moment to to your your situation in terms of being bisexual and and and just your personal side of things, but in a sec, but in a second, but before that, one of the things you've hinted at several times here, and anybody who reads about you will know this, was the fact that you had this um serious diagnosis back in 2024. 03:32:29.200 --> 03:32:31.600 Yes, and that changed a lot for you. 03:32:31.760 --> 03:32:44.239 Just just I know it's a it was a uh you know difficult period, and I know you talk about this in your comedy or whatever, but tell us if you can, um, in a nutshell, what happened and how that's had an impact on your life. 03:32:44.959 --> 03:32:53.040 Yeah, so uh in January 2024, uh we went to New York with its motherfucking pleasure to do three weeks off Broadway. 03:32:53.120 --> 03:32:58.879 We flew out on uh four in the morning on New Year's Day, had a lovely, lovely time in New York. 03:32:59.040 --> 03:33:02.079 And then four days after we landed back, I got really ill. 03:33:02.159 --> 03:33:04.879 Um, started throwing up like three or four times a day. 03:33:04.959 --> 03:33:09.120 I ended up like bedbound, it was horrible, and nobody knew what was wrong with me. 03:33:09.200 --> 03:33:13.600 All the doctors were like, it's vertigo, it's just vertigo, it's cool, you'll get over it. 03:33:13.920 --> 03:33:24.399 And then um I they they after three weeks of just horribleness, and it took ages for them to do it, they um they finally scaled my brain and found that it was it was a brain tumor. 03:33:24.479 --> 03:33:30.399 Um, it was a seven centimeter brain, no, it was an eight centimeter brain tumor. 03:33:30.639 --> 03:33:38.479 Um, and uh it was there was when when I was told they were basically like there's a very high chance you'll die in the next day and a half. 03:33:38.719 --> 03:33:42.159 Um, and then the obviously, spoiler, I didn't. 03:33:42.319 --> 03:33:49.040 Um so I'm yeah, but I I basically spent that entire year, like 2024 was just a write-off. 03:33:49.360 --> 03:34:00.399 Um, so I I had five brain surgeries in like five days, and when I came out of those, I was in so much pain and I had to relearn how to do everything. 03:34:00.479 --> 03:34:02.959 Um, like I couldn't speak, I couldn't talk. 03:34:03.200 --> 03:34:05.200 But speaking and talking is the same thing. 03:34:05.280 --> 03:34:06.879 Uh I couldn't, yeah, I couldn't talk. 03:34:06.959 --> 03:34:17.360 I couldn't um I had to, I think after two weeks after the the um the surgery, they finally let me start learning how to swallow again. 03:34:17.520 --> 03:34:23.040 And I had two teaspoons of water every day to relearn how to swallow. 03:34:23.200 --> 03:34:42.239 And because of the way the tumour was, which is on the back of my brain, the bit that controls balance and nausea, I was still throwing up loads and um like was walking, had to relearn to walk, walking the zimmer frame for a while, then crutches, and when I started doing stand-up, I was using crutches to walk, and and I've had to relearn how to do all of those things. 03:34:42.479 --> 03:34:50.399 Um but also that the that has so my my sight condition is degenerative, uh so it's gonna get worse. 03:34:50.719 --> 03:34:53.360 It's I was born with it and it's gonna get worse and worse and worse. 03:34:53.440 --> 03:35:30.719 And I've always hidden it and I've always sort of yeah, it's it's a themed within the show that I've always hidden it all my life, but then the cancer, it's knocked my side down dramatically, so I don't have a choice, like I have to walk on with a cane post-cancer, and it's actually been like a lovely experience because I've I've accepted it, but also what the cancer did is it um, which we're kind of talking about in the show, but like that um it made me decide okay, I'm going to do a stand-up show, like I'm going to take a show to the I promise in myself in hospital, like you're going to move into stand-up when you get out of the hospital and you're going to do a show at the end of a fringe in 2026. 03:35:31.040 --> 03:35:49.600 Um, and in that, and I I knew what I wanted to talk about on stage, and I knew that I wanted to talk about being bisexual and my life, but um, I've never actually like I've assumed my parents already know, but I've never had a sit-down conversation with them because I personally hate the idea of coming out. 03:35:49.840 --> 03:35:57.440 I think that having a sit-down conversation, like people know when there's something that they need to be aware of. 03:35:57.520 --> 03:36:02.639 So, like all my friends are aware because I talk about like relationships or like flings I have. 03:36:02.719 --> 03:36:05.520 So I talk to them about it, but I've never come out to them. 03:36:05.600 --> 03:36:09.040 I just like this was a man, this was whatever. 03:36:09.360 --> 03:36:26.479 But I've never been in a relationship long enough to where I I like the we're meeting the parents, and so I've never had a reason to tell my parents, and I hate the idea of coming out without anything to follow, like mum and dad, I'm bisexual, no further action needed at this time. 03:36:26.639 --> 03:36:28.639 Like I've I've always hated that. 03:36:28.799 --> 03:36:43.760 So, but because I I talk about it on stage, uh last Christmas, I had to like sit before they saw the show, I had to sit down and talk about what I talk about in the show, like all the different topics and whatever, and then in that chat, I had to be like, also, I'm bisexual for the first and for the first time I told them. 03:36:43.920 --> 03:36:56.079 And again, that thing of like not realizing that I held any, like I thought they already knew, they obviously already knew, and they've never given me any reason to think that they'd ever have a problem with it. 03:36:56.159 --> 03:37:00.159 Like that always told me and my sister, we can be whoever you want to be and love whoever you want to love. 03:37:00.319 --> 03:37:18.799 But when I told them, I realized that I had held all of the things that society feeds us about like everyone for the Middle East hates gay people, and that overridden the like my actual experience of my entire family. 03:37:19.280 --> 03:37:26.719 Um, and when I told them I felt this weight lift off me, like a weight that'd been for so long that I'd zeroed the scales. 03:37:26.799 --> 03:37:30.959 But when it was gone, I was like, oh my god, I didn't realize I've been holding that for 27 years. 03:37:31.200 --> 03:37:32.399 That's crazy. 03:37:32.559 --> 03:37:48.959 So yeah, that to be honest, the brain, the brain cancer, as horrible as it was, was so useful for like coming to terms with her way, and now I just feel unashamedly me, and I feel able to be because that was the only thing holding me back. 03:37:49.120 --> 03:38:02.959 The fact that I was like, fuck, I just any I just kept being like, I really want to be in a relationship with a man for long enough where I meet the parents so I can I have a reason to tell my parents and then I will feel good. 03:38:03.040 --> 03:38:08.959 But I was like, I'm not gonna tell them for the sake of it, but I have now I have a reason to tell them. 03:38:09.040 --> 03:38:14.879 I'm like, oh yes, I can just yeah, it just feels so much better. 03:38:15.200 --> 03:38:15.680 And what was that? 03:38:15.760 --> 03:38:17.040 What was their reaction then? 03:38:17.280 --> 03:38:24.000 So they were they were both like, oh, that's great, but with bisexual, they they were confused because they had not really heard it. 03:38:24.159 --> 03:38:25.280 So they were like, So what does that mean? 03:38:25.360 --> 03:38:38.639 I was like, I so both, and like they every now and then do ask questions about like what it means because they also like their entire so they they're they're both from Iran, they moved over. 03:38:38.719 --> 03:38:54.879 I think dad came over in the 70s, and I mean the wash moved to America first, and then she came over in the 90s, and so that their entire experience of sort of queerness is gay people, I think. 03:38:55.040 --> 03:38:58.319 Like that's the whole that's what they view as. 03:38:58.479 --> 03:39:41.600 Like you are either straight, which in Iran is like is the status quo or is normal, or you are gay, which is not okay in Iran, and then they both move over to the UK and they're like, this is not all like the moment to America, and they're like, Okay, it's accepted here, it's fine here, that's great, and they sort of accept that and acknowledge that, and then they they see like all the descriptions on TV or film or theater or in the media, and they're like, Okay, there are straight people and there are gay people. 03:39:41.760 --> 03:39:47.760 Like you have your I don't know what the summation of a straight person is, and I don't know, like the rock. 03:39:47.840 --> 03:39:50.959 I don't know if the rock is uh he's a bit kind yeah, I don't know. 03:39:51.040 --> 03:39:59.760 You have like someone like that, and you have like Tom Dale, uh like it feels very like the like those are the two extremes. 03:40:00.799 --> 03:40:06.959 Um and so yeah, they are like the questions of like okay, so what does that actually mean in practical terms? 03:40:07.120 --> 03:40:08.319 Like, what is that? 03:40:08.399 --> 03:40:24.879 And it's also an interesting thing that I I joke about in the show of the um the the interesting preconceptions about what it means in terms of like relationships, but and then also sex. 03:40:25.440 --> 03:40:36.159 So it's like I am bisexual, but I'm still I hope I will find someone who I love and I want to spend the rest of my life with, and they want to spend the rest and I'll get married and I'll be faithful and whatever. 03:40:36.479 --> 03:40:46.079 Like being bisexual, and like having to sort of explain that and be like, some people aren't, some people like want to be open and want to be poly, and that's great for them. 03:40:46.319 --> 03:40:49.920 I personally don't, I would love to be in a mark-minute relationship. 03:40:50.159 --> 03:40:59.360 Um, but then there's the the thing of like, oh, so if you're bisexual, are you gonna like be faithful to somebody or are you gonna keep looking around? 03:40:59.440 --> 03:41:01.920 Or is it like just is it just a sex thing? 03:41:02.079 --> 03:41:05.680 Is it just a it's like it's is that separated from the relationship thing? 03:41:05.760 --> 03:41:12.079 And you have to sort of the point is it is for some people, some people out there do have sex with men and women, enjoy that and want that all the time. 03:41:12.559 --> 03:41:30.959 Everyone's different, and then everyone, everyone's there, but and like also it's it's where those conversations come from because it felt like every time, like during that chat at Christmas, and also every sort of subsequent time, they like bring up a question seemingly with no context or no lead up. 03:41:31.280 --> 03:41:33.120 They're like, Okay, I'm alone in a room with him. 03:41:33.200 --> 03:41:37.440 I've had this question going for like a month and I've not been in a room with him, I'm gonna ask it. 03:41:37.760 --> 03:41:55.840 Um, but like when when those happen, like the questions don't come from a place of like the judgment or like I don't know, yeah, it doesn't come from a negative place, it comes from a place of like genuine curiosity, genuine like wanting to understand you and how your world works. 03:41:56.079 --> 03:42:08.319 And yeah, I think I think that when when when questioning wanting to understand you before you've understood yourself, because let's face it again, we talked before about how sexuality changes all the time. 03:42:08.559 --> 03:42:13.280 We're engaging as bisexual people in new experiences all the time, it changes constantly. 03:42:13.360 --> 03:42:14.719 So yeah, who knows? 03:42:14.799 --> 03:42:29.120 You know, I mean, yeah, that but that is also the thing, like people also we have a sort of affinity to want straight answers, and pardon the pardon, we're like we want like very sort of like white, yeah. 03:42:29.200 --> 03:42:35.040 It's it needs to be like we need to know, we need to know everything at the moment that we know it. 03:42:35.120 --> 03:42:47.200 It's sort of something with a blindness, it's like they people don't really want me to be like, so sometimes my sight is like this, and I I sort of struggle with like death perception, I struggle with whatever. 03:42:47.280 --> 03:42:53.840 They just want to be like, give me a percentage, give me a number, and then I can make sense of it in my brain, and we are all good. 03:42:54.000 --> 03:42:56.159 It's the same as like simple answer, don't they want to sit? 03:42:56.479 --> 03:43:15.840 Simple answer so they can just digest it and be like, okay, I can make sense of this in my world, and it's but it's also it's it's that thing of making sure making other people be like, No, it's okay to not fully understand something, yes, and it's okay to get things wrong as well. 03:43:16.079 --> 03:43:34.000 Like, I think personally, I think it's completely fine to say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing, assume the wrong thing, but just a bit of humility about it, and I think it comes from both sides from the other person, not attacking them for it, because then they'll just seize up and they'll never want to go near those things again. 03:43:34.239 --> 03:43:34.639 Absolutely. 03:43:35.200 --> 03:43:48.000 If people, yeah, it's just so final, finally, we probably should have talked about this earlier, but actually, we we've gone off in so many different tangents, which is fantastic, which is all right, and again, that's very typical of uh bisexual uh uh stories on this show. 03:43:48.079 --> 03:43:50.719 Everyone's gonna be all sorts of different tangents, it's fantastic. 03:43:50.959 --> 03:43:59.440 Um, in terms of relationships, then um your relationships with men and women and maybe other other genders, I don't know, you can tell me. 03:43:59.520 --> 03:44:04.079 Um, what's been your experience and how have they gone? 03:44:04.159 --> 03:44:06.639 You don't have to tell us the whole detail, yeah, but how have they gone? 03:44:06.719 --> 03:44:19.200 And have there been, you know, as some of has some of those experiences with the different people um bled into your uh into your into your comedy and how you see things kind of thing, the things you've gone through. 03:44:19.360 --> 03:44:31.920 Tell us a bit about what it's been like navigating the different genders when it comes to being um being you, and also have you when you've actually met the people, have you been open about being uh being bisexual? 03:44:32.000 --> 03:44:35.120 I mean, you've got all the other intersectionalities to do with this, as you say. 03:44:36.000 --> 03:44:39.200 I mean, uh no, is the honest answer. 03:44:39.440 --> 03:45:05.520 Um, I think for and also speaking to a lot of other people with disabilities and blind people, you have a weird perception of yourself, um, and the reflection of society's perception of you as a person who is dateable or a person who is like, I don't know, like open to sex or sexually available, is so shut down from people. 03:45:05.920 --> 03:45:15.360 And uh there's often the the the worry from yourself, you're like, oh, I don't want people to feel sorry for me, or I don't want people to feel like they're like I'm a burden or whatever. 03:45:15.520 --> 03:45:20.559 And so what that's meant in my life is that I I've always hidden the blindness. 03:45:20.639 --> 03:45:25.680 So when I go on dates, I don't tell the person and don't I like walk around with the cane. 03:45:25.840 --> 03:45:27.440 I pretend to be able to read stuff. 03:45:27.600 --> 03:45:32.239 I don't I have a rule where I don't tell the person till the third date that I'm blind. 03:45:32.559 --> 03:45:51.200 Um and so what that means is that there are because I'm so focused on the hiding it and whatever, that things don't really move past a few dates, or things don't even get to that point. 03:45:51.600 --> 03:46:13.120 Um, because the sort of perception of yourself as attractive or as um sort of dateable, or like being like, Oh, I don't want to be a burden, and it's interesting of like some one of my best friends, Sam Brewer, who's co-runs for Lawrence, he's also blind, um, and he's he's a bit older than me. 03:46:13.200 --> 03:46:17.200 I think he's 32, I want to say, like next week. 03:46:17.360 --> 03:46:24.879 Um, and he he's had a sort of similar-ish relationship with um with both sex and relationships. 03:46:25.040 --> 03:47:17.600 Uh, but he he's just so he was in Broadway um in Oedipus at the end of last year, and he met a uh lovely New York uh New York woman, a lovely American woman, uh who they've like fallen in love and have met a few times, and she is just so accepting, and he it's it's so lovely to speak to him because I'm realizing, oh, he doesn't feel like a burden, he doesn't feel like whatever, because also like they're having the conversations of like an Audrey's so lovely that she'll tell him things like you are so worried about what like you're making me do, or like uh the the perception of you as like asking me to sacrifice things, but it's like actually no, it's it's what I'm what I like you need to acknowledge what you're adding to my life. 03:47:17.840 --> 03:47:28.000 I'm not just adding things to your life and being like great for you, like you are adding things to my and it's like having that self-value and self-worth feels so important. 03:47:28.159 --> 03:47:30.319 Um, but then also yeah, the bisexuality thing. 03:47:30.399 --> 03:47:39.440 I I haven't I I don't I I don't tell people because they like it it never comes up and it feels like a weird overcomplication. 03:47:39.680 --> 03:47:42.239 Um that like every now and then I do. 03:47:42.399 --> 03:47:53.840 Uh but it's like yeah, but I I again I feel like since the cancer, so I haven't I haven't sort of dated or done it had any sort of relationship since the cancer. 03:47:54.159 --> 03:48:03.920 Um but have you ever getting got got into a got into a relationship over time um and then told them that you're bisexual or you've never had yeah, you've done that. 03:48:04.159 --> 03:48:08.959 It's it's never gone like super far, it's but like I think my longest relationship's like been four months. 03:48:09.200 --> 03:48:14.719 Um, and yeah, I I think it probably has come up, um, but it's never again. 03:48:14.799 --> 03:48:28.159 I hate the idea of sit-down coming out conversations, it feels like a but um yeah, so since since the cancer, I've not sort of engaged in any because partly because I've been sort of so focused on the recovery. 03:48:28.319 --> 03:48:32.479 I'm still like, I mean, because of where the tumor was, I'm still throwing up. 03:48:32.559 --> 03:48:37.040 I was throwing up three or four times a day, I'm now throwing up about once a week, which is nice. 03:48:37.120 --> 03:48:47.680 Um, so I can sort of manage and have like learning how to walk and like having this new focus of like going into stand-up and having my show at Edinburgh, and that show was commissioned by the Lowry and whatever. 03:48:47.840 --> 03:48:50.000 Um, so I've I've been so focused on that. 03:48:50.159 --> 03:48:52.719 And people are like, Are you gonna think about ready? 03:48:52.879 --> 03:49:02.079 I was like, uh, so currently, this is the first time in my life that I'm actually content that I'm single, um, in the sense that like I have a real thing that I'm focusing on. 03:49:02.399 --> 03:49:07.760 Yeah, but it's like I have a thing that I'm focusing on, which is the comedy show and recovery. 03:49:07.920 --> 03:49:21.760 Whatever happens will happen, but I'm also I'm so excited for the next period of my life after this fringe because I will I I'm basically I'm not giving myself a choice anymore. 03:49:22.000 --> 03:49:27.360 Where as before, I could hide the blindness and I could like hide whatever. 03:49:27.520 --> 03:49:31.840 Yeah, now I've I've made a show about it, right? 03:49:32.000 --> 03:49:34.079 Like it's out there, I'm doing podcasts like this. 03:49:34.159 --> 03:49:44.399 Like, somebody will Google my name or look at my Instagram before anything, they'll see the comedy I do, and they'll be like, Okay, he is blind and he is whatever, and they'll know those things about me. 03:49:44.639 --> 03:49:48.879 Yeah, and that to be honest, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. 03:49:48.959 --> 03:49:50.479 That's gonna shut some people out. 03:49:50.639 --> 03:50:07.040 Like, some people are like very like, I suppose, vain maybe, or like whatever, or have preconceived or have their own issues or have their own hangups or whatever, they'll see blind and they'll be like, Cool, he's not for me, or they'll be like, Okay, whatever, and they'll they'll shut it out. 03:50:07.360 --> 03:50:21.440 But I feel like really, I think liberated now, in the sense of knowing that whatever interactions I do have, I don't have to ever, I don't have to do the coming out. 03:50:21.680 --> 03:50:24.799 I mean, so my no, you don't the longest relationship, yeah. 03:50:24.879 --> 03:50:28.879 The sort of longest relationship that I had, uh, which was like four months or so. 03:50:29.040 --> 03:50:31.280 So I we had like four dates. 03:50:31.360 --> 03:50:33.200 I had not told them that I was blind. 03:50:33.360 --> 03:50:36.479 Um, and it was it was the beginning of 2023. 03:50:36.639 --> 03:50:39.840 So we were doing motherfucking pleasure at the Volts Festival in London. 03:50:39.920 --> 03:50:43.840 Um, and that show we we talk about blindness a lot, and I talk about him being blind. 03:50:44.239 --> 03:50:51.520 I was coming out with this guy, and um he told me so the show was on for one week at the Volds Festival. 03:50:51.680 --> 03:50:59.600 Um, on Tuesday, he was like, I'm coming to the show on Thursday, I'm so excited, and I was like, Fuck, what are you doing on Wednesday? 03:50:59.760 --> 03:51:12.479 Um, so we met up on Wednesday, like outside Green Park Station, we went for a really long walk, like through Hyde Park, and then we went into like uh walk down Oxford Street, and the entire time I was like, Fuck, I'm gonna have to town. 03:51:12.559 --> 03:51:13.360 I don't know how I'm gonna turn. 03:51:13.600 --> 03:51:18.000 We ended up in Oxford Street, we go into the um the Salvridges in Oxford Street upstairs in the Salvridges. 03:51:18.159 --> 03:51:19.360 There's a yo sushi. 03:51:19.600 --> 03:51:23.840 Um so we're sitting at the like side by side in this sushi bar. 03:51:23.920 --> 03:51:27.840 Um, the like treadmill thing of sushi is going past us. 03:51:28.079 --> 03:51:32.239 He is like funneling his sushi, and I like what I get, I'm really I'm like, oh okay. 03:51:32.319 --> 03:51:35.360 So I'm like, um so Josh, uh, you need to know. 03:51:35.520 --> 03:51:38.879 Um, so you genuinely what the show's about? 03:51:39.040 --> 03:51:39.760 Yeah, okay. 03:51:39.920 --> 03:51:48.719 So this the show's about that because I am actually blind, and he didn't fucking stop eating his sushi, he just went, yep. 03:51:48.959 --> 03:51:49.840 I was like, What? 03:51:50.799 --> 03:51:52.639 Sorry, and he's like, Yeah, I know I know. 03:51:52.799 --> 03:51:53.920 And I was like, What the fuck? 03:51:54.159 --> 03:51:54.879 How do you know? 03:51:54.959 --> 03:51:56.079 I've been hiding it. 03:51:56.159 --> 03:52:01.120 And he was like, Motherfucker, you have your phone so close to your face. 03:52:01.280 --> 03:52:07.520 I just assumed, and I was like, I thought, but I was also I couldn't see my phone. 03:52:07.680 --> 03:52:15.680 I thought I was holding my phone far away a normal distance, so like I would have held it closer, and I was like, I was trying to hide. 03:52:15.840 --> 03:52:21.200 He was like, No, I know it's not and it was it was lovely, but it was like you've robbed me of my moment. 03:52:21.520 --> 03:52:29.520 This is but I I don't I I I I yeah, it's very liberating to know that I'm never gonna have to go through anything like that again. 03:52:29.840 --> 03:52:45.280 Because on the first day, one would assume that they have done their due diligence if they have not, if they haven't like Googled me, I that's a red flag to be honest, because I'm Googling you. 03:52:45.520 --> 03:52:49.360 Um, so like if they yeah, that they'll know, they'll know. 03:52:49.440 --> 03:52:53.680 And it's did you tell him you were bisexual eventually? 03:52:53.920 --> 03:52:55.040 Uh at some point, yeah. 03:52:55.120 --> 03:52:58.879 I think it probably came up and it probably just wasn't even a thing, really. 03:52:59.840 --> 03:53:01.040 That's good, that's good, that's good. 03:53:01.280 --> 03:53:05.680 Um it often is sadly, it often is an issue for lots of people, unfortunately. 03:53:06.079 --> 03:53:19.120 Yes, uh, I've heard I've heard stories of like people like not and I think actually it's from from the story, you're you're probably better versed because you've spoken to a lot more bisexuals than I have. 03:53:19.200 --> 03:53:42.879 Uh but I think in straight-facing relationships, um it becomes more complicated potentially than in a sort of um same gender relationship or queer relationship where the sort of the the barriers are sort of down a bit and they're like, okay, cool, but you're with me, yeah, great. 03:53:43.120 --> 03:53:53.920 Whereas with yeah, with a that there's a weird thing with it with a straight relationship and a lot of straight straight women find uh difficulty with it. 03:53:54.799 --> 03:54:10.239 A lot of gay men find difficulty with it when they yeah, if they if they feel as though you you know you've had a fair number of relationships, maybe with women, or you know, they they see it as a bit of comp bit of competition, they can't understand it. 03:54:10.399 --> 03:54:14.639 I think you know they've got to be convinced that you're gonna be loyal to them and all that kind of stuff. 03:54:14.719 --> 03:54:24.559 So yeah, of course the other thing comes the other thing comes on, they think that they think maybe actually you're you're a bit repressed and that you you're or you're settling, or you're yeah. 03:54:24.799 --> 03:54:27.680 Yeah, or you're a bit confused and all that kind of thing. 03:54:27.760 --> 03:54:40.319 But in terms of the practicalities of dating, you know, regardless of whether you're bisexual or not, have you found the the whole thing of the chemistry between men and women different to navigate? 03:54:41.040 --> 03:54:42.079 I think so. 03:54:42.239 --> 03:54:43.760 I think massively. 03:54:44.239 --> 03:54:46.639 Because it's funny, because that's quite funny, isn't it, in a way? 03:54:46.879 --> 03:54:47.200 It is. 03:54:55.920 --> 03:55:32.319 Yeah, there's again like the exploitations, the preconceptions of things, and like uh the sort of ways in are also very uh different because the way into sort of into gay world, I guess, is very much hookup culture, and it's all around sex, and it's all around like like very like you find less opportunities for people to just be like, I just want to date, or I just want to go for a drink, or I just want whatever. 03:55:32.559 --> 03:56:04.159 Where and and it feels like with at least from my experience, with um sort of same-sex or gay relationships out or like dates or whatever, there is a strong expectation, I think, to to fuck, like, or there's a strong expectation for some form of sort of like like it it feels like very hockup-centric, um, and it's all sort of leaning to that. 03:56:04.319 --> 03:56:08.319 It's like that is a hurdle, and then you consider dating. 03:56:08.639 --> 03:56:20.879 Whereas it feels like with a straight relationship, uh, which I personally prefer this way around, um, of being like, do we like each other? 03:56:21.120 --> 03:56:23.440 What is the what's the vibe? 03:56:23.760 --> 03:56:33.440 And then being like, okay, now I am attracted to you as a person, like now I'm attracted to you sexually, and we whatever. 03:56:33.600 --> 03:56:57.920 Um whereas yeah, with it it also feels like you with gay relationships, um there feels like more questions because you're like you feel like people can that because some people have different sort of um priorities in their heads, right? 03:56:58.159 --> 03:57:33.120 And some people will be like, I just would like some sex, and they are not attracted to you necessarily, or not interested in your personality, or not interested in you after the fact, but you only really find out that after they're like, Yeah, I'm gonna whatever, I'll say whatever, but like to my my my experience of gay men and bi men is that because a lot of bi men have had have had to live in the world of the straight world, as it were, and they've had to navigate getting to know somebody over time. 03:57:33.600 --> 03:57:51.360 My experience of getting to know people who are bisexual, bisexual men as opposed to gay men overall, not not completely, um, is that bi men um do tend to, I think, prefer that whole thing of getting to know somebody that it's not they're not into the bang bang sex kind of thing. 03:57:51.440 --> 03:58:03.600 Yeah, whereas gay men, just because of the probably the nature of the gay world and the fact of the repression and not being able to do things, yeah, it has been that whole thing of bang, we have to have sex straight away kind of thing. 03:58:03.680 --> 03:58:06.159 Uh yeah, and then figure out exactly what I think. 03:58:06.399 --> 03:58:14.959 I mean, when I was when I was in your when I was your age in my in my mid-20s, I came to Manchester and uh I lived in the gay village area. 03:58:15.120 --> 03:58:15.360 Yes. 03:58:15.520 --> 03:58:23.440 Uh and lived on um on Canal Street, but a bit further down in some apartments, and uh there was a spa underneath where I where I lived. 03:58:23.600 --> 03:58:44.239 And when I at one one point, it was ridiculous, really, but I could literally go out of the of the of the flat, go to spa, get a pint of milk, look over the road, have a glance at some guy, and in my purple period, as it were, um, would he could be in my bed within 30 seconds. 03:58:44.319 --> 03:58:44.879 Do you know what I mean? 03:58:45.040 --> 03:58:46.799 Literally, that that kind of thing could happen. 03:58:47.040 --> 03:58:53.520 Because that was the whole thing about being a man was that that was it, that you just you you you know, you connected, and that was it. 03:58:53.600 --> 03:59:00.879 But then I'd never see them again, never even know their name, you know, which is awful, really, when you think about it, but that's the nature of the of the beast, really. 03:59:01.120 --> 03:59:11.280 And I think also I think to a lot of bisexual men who maybe are coming out later or or even coming out earlier and just haven't experienced the gay world, that's quite a shock to them. 03:59:11.440 --> 03:59:13.280 They're like, how do you deal with that? 03:59:13.440 --> 03:59:15.120 That's quite hard to sort of understand. 03:59:15.760 --> 03:59:19.440 But I also so I think that that's is very interesting. 03:59:19.760 --> 03:59:23.600 Now also reflecting on like blindness and stuff. 03:59:23.760 --> 03:59:24.879 So I can't do that. 03:59:25.040 --> 03:59:46.799 No, of course you can't, and like I can't like go to a and it it is also, yeah, one of the frustrating things of like you're sort of restricted to like the apps and the the sort of hookup y nature because you can't be out in a coffee shop and see somebody that you find attractive and go over and say hi. 03:59:47.040 --> 03:59:56.799 Like I am like like nobody is there for me, nobody is like available until somebody comes up to me. 03:59:57.440 --> 04:00:00.319 Of course, and you don't you don't have a big sign on your head saying I'm blind, you know. 04:00:00.399 --> 04:00:02.239 I don't buy all blind. 04:00:02.959 --> 04:00:52.479 It's like, yeah, people make assumptions and especially, yeah, like the the way I present, a lot of sort of women will assume oh, he is gay, and um sort of if I if I had sight, I might go up to somebody and start talking to them, and they would then realize that I'm not, but because I it it feels so passive for me, not in a in a way that I can control, like I just have to sort of wait for people to appear, and therefore people are able to without any like just be like either blind, no, or either, oh, he's gay, no, or either he's whatever. 04:00:52.719 --> 04:01:03.040 Like they're able to make those choices uh based on my appearance, so they yeah, like it's it's it's a it's an interesting way around. 04:01:03.280 --> 04:01:05.920 You're young, you're 27, you're on and still on a journey. 04:01:06.000 --> 04:01:08.159 This bisexual journey hasn't stopped yet, has it? 04:01:08.239 --> 04:01:09.040 Let's face it. 04:01:09.440 --> 04:01:21.360 But are you do you feel comfortable in your, you know, I know you've got all those other intersections and you've had all these other things to deal with, but in terms of the sexuality side of things, are you a proud bisexual, as it were? 04:01:21.520 --> 04:01:37.280 Yeah, like I think I said before, like this this period of my life, I feel the proudest I've ever been about all of my identities, but about yeah, about bisexuality because I'm putting on a poster, I'm doing a show about it. 04:01:37.440 --> 04:01:47.200 Um, where that does my name, I'm not a character, I'm saying it, and when I do it on stage, I don't feel like oh fuck, I'm gonna have to say it. 04:01:47.280 --> 04:01:59.760 And I don't I feel so happy that I'm doing it, and I feel like yeah, that the this feels like it it feels like this period of my life is a really important one, and one that I feel. 04:02:00.959 --> 04:02:17.840 Very grateful to be able to experience and like yeah, I I I am very accepting of everything that I am, and my my entire message to people, this fringe, is like uh please don't wait for cancer to accept who you are, just just do it. 04:02:18.479 --> 04:02:19.680 Absolutely, absolutely. 04:02:19.760 --> 04:02:23.920 And and for people who are bi, uh, we get this all the time on bisexual branch. 04:02:24.000 --> 04:02:30.000 People write to us, people are contacting us all the time, saying we've um yeah, we've been a lifeline, as it were. 04:02:30.239 --> 04:02:35.280 And I would suggest that's probably that's the kind of thing influence you have on people in a way. 04:02:35.440 --> 04:02:49.760 People who are watching for the you for the first time and and hear about your bisexuality and your other intersexualities, but certainly in this instance, your bisexuality, they will love that, they'll love that connection because they won't get it anywhere else. 04:02:49.840 --> 04:02:55.520 You know, most people we speak to on the show don't know anybody else who's bisexual, they have absolutely no idea. 04:02:55.680 --> 04:02:59.360 There probably are people who are bisexual in their circle of friends, but they don't know that. 04:02:59.440 --> 04:03:02.639 I don't know about you, but I I still know very few people. 04:03:02.959 --> 04:03:06.159 Uh probably count them on one hand who I know are definitely bisexual. 04:03:06.479 --> 04:03:09.600 So it's it's it's it's so it's nice to have that connection. 04:03:09.680 --> 04:03:17.120 And and presumably when you've you mentioned earlier on, when you've connected with people who've said mentioned this, that must that must warm your heart. 04:03:17.360 --> 04:03:25.680 It's honestly, it's it is genuinely the most lovely thing ever because I know how important those things were to me. 04:03:26.159 --> 04:04:00.399 And that like if if if I'm able to do that for somebody, if I'm able to make somebody feel seen or make somebody feel like they they are not alone or they're whatever because because of also there are people who like uh have some form of disability or some form whatever, and they're like oh, I was already like I'm already disabled, so like I thought I already sort of had my quota, like I couldn't explore my sexuality, or I couldn't explore any sort of colour with my sexuality because you know I'm I'm a disabled person. 04:04:00.479 --> 04:04:18.559 That's that that's my thing, and like and hearing hearing me or hearing other people who have these experiences allow them to go, oh I can yeah, it it honestly it's it's it's I think the best part of and it's it's a totally unintentional part of of what I mean. 04:04:18.799 --> 04:04:22.319 Like the the way the reason I got into this was pure purely selfish. 04:04:22.479 --> 04:04:25.600 It has absolutely like it was not altruistic at all. 04:04:25.840 --> 04:04:29.200 But um, yeah, I've I've I I just love that. 04:04:29.360 --> 04:04:29.840 I love that. 04:04:29.920 --> 04:04:36.479 So if if people do want to come say hi, also, yeah, that that is my message for the end of uh my show at the fringe. 04:04:36.879 --> 04:04:45.040 Like, I won't see you if you smile at me from across the room, if you see me, um, or like I won't like know that you're there. 04:04:45.120 --> 04:04:54.079 So, like, if like please like do come over to me and talk, or like message me because I love that. 04:04:54.239 --> 04:04:55.120 And yeah. 04:04:55.440 --> 04:05:01.040 Well, let's let's do the parish notice as it were, because people are listening to this, it's gonna go, it's going out fairly soon. 04:05:01.120 --> 04:05:08.639 So people listening to this, tell it tell us, tell everybody where they can come and see you immediately, but also maybe later in the year as well. 04:05:08.799 --> 04:05:10.559 So just tell us a bit about that if you can. 04:05:10.879 --> 04:05:18.159 Yeah, so uh currently, so from the from the 5th to the 31st of August, I am performing my show at the Animber Fringe Festival. 04:05:18.239 --> 04:05:20.879 Uh the show is called How's Your Head? 04:05:21.040 --> 04:05:28.799 Um, and it is on at the Bluebell uh Underbelly George Square at 4 45 pm every day. 04:05:29.120 --> 04:05:34.319 Then I uh we go into rehearsals for um Floorboard My Theatre Company's second show. 04:05:34.479 --> 04:05:36.719 That show is called What's the Fucking Point? 04:05:36.879 --> 04:05:41.120 Um, so we're opening that in uh Bristol Old Vic Theatre in October. 04:05:41.200 --> 04:05:42.079 I can't remember the dates. 04:05:42.159 --> 04:05:43.920 It's something 18th of October. 04:05:44.079 --> 04:05:47.360 I think it finishes on the 18th, so like a week back from the 18th. 04:05:47.520 --> 04:05:51.680 Um, but then we are um we can look up details on this on your website, can't we? 04:05:51.920 --> 04:06:01.840 Yeah, I'm yeah, we're but we're then gonna also we're gonna bring it to uh we haven't announced it yet, but we're we're we're doing something with it in London at the beginning of next year. 04:06:02.079 --> 04:06:15.280 Um, but also I'm uh I I mean uh weirdly, uh I'm making my TV debut in David Beagle's new uh channel for drama called Hunting Alice Bell, which will come out near the end of the year. 04:06:15.440 --> 04:06:16.559 So that's gonna be fun. 04:06:16.719 --> 04:06:30.959 Uh but yeah, if you just if you follow me on Instagram or whatever, so I am at arriganm, which is double-a-r-i-an.m, uh on everything on my website is aroundi.com. 04:06:31.120 --> 04:06:33.760 So I'll like everything will be updated there. 04:06:33.920 --> 04:06:41.680 Um, and you can it be a saint and sign up to the mailing list on my website, and you will just get you won't get bombarded with emails. 04:06:41.760 --> 04:06:48.959 But I just send emails every now and then being like, this is what I'm doing, these are some shows that I'm doing, they're on sale. 04:06:49.680 --> 04:07:02.799 And finally, while we're on, um my colleague Andrew Edwards, who uh um has has done our research and was in touch with you, uh, does speak extremely highly of you and uh thinks you're gonna be uh a real star. 04:07:03.120 --> 04:07:06.239 So there you go, some compliments from uh one of our team. 04:07:06.559 --> 04:07:08.639 That's lovely, that's very nice. 04:07:08.799 --> 04:07:24.719 It's also it's always, I think, that it's the nicest when I hear through another person that somebody else like enjoys me or what I do, because like people will tell you to your face, like, oh, I found that really funny, or like I really enjoyed that, and you're like, Oh, thank you. 04:07:24.959 --> 04:07:50.479 It genuinely does mean a lot, but then when like a couple of weeks later you meet somebody else and they're like, Oh, yeah, this person was telling me about you and your show, and they would said they said this and this, and I'm like, Oh, that is actually so nice because they didn't have to like I don't know why I came up, but they felt the need to in their own time voluntarily tell you it's not like they came to see my show, and they're like, Oh god, I have to tell them that I enjoyed it. 04:07:50.559 --> 04:07:53.520 Uh yeah, what so what's the what's the song you were telling me about then? 04:07:53.600 --> 04:07:55.360 You you sing in your set team? 04:07:55.680 --> 04:07:57.040 Uh nine comedy. 04:07:57.120 --> 04:07:59.040 Uh so I'm uh I'm a sing songwriter. 04:07:59.280 --> 04:08:01.360 So you can also you can also find me on Spotify. 04:08:01.440 --> 04:08:02.479 I am at Arian. 04:08:02.559 --> 04:08:04.959 So just my first name at A R I A N. 04:08:05.040 --> 04:08:07.840 I've only got one song out on Spotify, it's called Five Yard Line. 04:08:07.920 --> 04:08:10.159 Um, but I will be releasing more next year. 04:08:10.239 --> 04:08:11.440 So okay, yeah, okay. 04:08:11.520 --> 04:08:15.440 So you're you're you're you're you're you're you're uh um what do we call it? 04:08:16.239 --> 04:08:19.440 Multi-faceted, multi multi-talented, as it were. 04:08:19.600 --> 04:08:25.520 Yeah, you yeah, and you know the word talented is is I that's gonna be that's that's on you. 04:08:25.680 --> 04:08:26.799 You've chosen to use that. 04:08:26.959 --> 04:08:28.719 I would say multifaceted. 04:08:28.879 --> 04:08:34.639 Um there's no value judgment there, but if you would like to add a value judgment, then by all means. 04:08:34.879 --> 04:08:36.719 Don't worry, you could tell you could say, I'll give you that. 04:08:36.799 --> 04:08:37.840 I'll give you the value judgment. 04:08:38.239 --> 04:08:38.799 Fabulous. 04:08:39.280 --> 04:08:40.159 Brilliant, fantastic. 04:08:40.239 --> 04:08:41.840 Well, listen, lovely to talk to you. 04:08:41.920 --> 04:08:42.799 Let's keep in touch. 04:08:42.959 --> 04:08:43.680 Let's keep in touch. 04:08:43.760 --> 04:08:46.239 It'd be nice to meet you at some point because I know you're from the northwest, aren't you? 04:08:46.319 --> 04:08:46.959 So yes, I am. 04:08:47.040 --> 04:08:47.360 Yeah, yeah. 04:08:47.600 --> 04:08:50.079 If you if you're if you're around or whatever, maybe we should meet up and have a coffee. 04:08:50.319 --> 04:08:51.120 Yeah, that'd be lovely. 04:08:51.200 --> 04:08:52.799 Yeah, but but good luck today. 04:08:52.879 --> 04:08:56.079 I hope it all goes well at uh 4 45 or whatever it is. 04:08:56.719 --> 04:08:58.239 Yes, thank you so much. 04:08:58.479 --> 04:09:00.159 And go and sort that milk out. 04:09:00.399 --> 04:09:04.559 Oh god, oh my god, I forgot about the fucking I'll sort it out tonight. 04:09:04.639 --> 04:09:05.120 It's fine. 04:09:05.280 --> 04:09:06.159 Okay, see you later. 04:09:06.239 --> 04:09:06.399 Bye. 04:09:06.639 --> 04:09:07.360 Take care, Ariane. 04:09:07.440 --> 04:09:08.239 Bye-bye, bye-bye. 04:09:08.799 --> 04:09:15.280 And hot on the heels of uh Ariane's uh first uh performance at the Edinburgh Fringe. 04:09:15.440 --> 04:09:23.840 There was a review uh from uh an organization called bingefringe.com, which does all the different reviews uh during the Edinburgh Festival. 04:09:23.920 --> 04:09:32.079 And it said Ariane Marabani has naturally perfect comedic timing and left me genuinely windered with laughter a couple of times. 04:09:32.319 --> 04:09:35.680 Pure genius, as close to perfection as you can get. 04:09:35.760 --> 04:09:36.639 So there you go. 04:09:36.799 --> 04:09:40.799 And hopefully we'll be hearing again from Ariane uh on the show. 04:09:40.879 --> 04:09:48.639 Uh but in the meantime, uh just a reminder, uh, he's on every single day throughout August uh at the Edinburgh Fringe. 04:09:49.920 --> 04:09:54.000 And now it's time to ask a bisexual. 04:09:55.280 --> 04:09:57.680 Now, our next ask a bisexual question, then. 04:09:57.840 --> 04:10:01.680 And I'm Paul, I'm 38 and I live in Western Supermare. 04:10:01.840 --> 04:10:05.440 I've been out as bi for a few years now, and I'm comfortable with who I am. 04:10:05.600 --> 04:10:10.239 But there's one part of my bisexuality I've never explored, and I really want to. 04:10:10.399 --> 04:10:13.920 I'm interested in having a threesome with a man and a woman. 04:10:14.079 --> 04:10:26.719 It's something I've thought about for a very long time, partly because it feels like a situation where my bisexuality could exist naturally without me having to switch between the part of me that's into men or the part of me that's into women. 04:10:26.879 --> 04:10:29.680 It just feels like it would make sense for who I am. 04:10:29.920 --> 04:10:34.479 The problem is I have absolutely no idea how people even begin exploring something like this. 04:10:34.639 --> 04:10:48.479 I'm single, I'm sensible, and I'm not trying to rush into anything, but I'm nervous about everything consent, expectations, whether I'd feel out of out of my depth, whether I'd freeze, whether I'd accidentally end up in a situation that doesn't feel right. 04:10:48.639 --> 04:10:52.399 The fear of getting it wrong is enough to stop me doing anything at all. 04:10:52.639 --> 04:10:54.639 Has a panel any thoughts or advice? 04:10:54.879 --> 04:10:58.959 I worry about finding a space that's respectful and not overwhelming. 04:10:59.200 --> 04:11:02.879 Do they exist all in Western Super Mayor? 04:11:03.040 --> 04:11:13.840 Now, I think, I know it's not for you, um Lewis, but I think for a lot of bisexual men, this is actually the ultimate fantasy. 04:11:14.079 --> 04:11:18.000 Uh, but I don't think many of them know how to go about it. 04:11:18.079 --> 04:11:26.399 They don't know where to find uh they might be able to find another man who's interested in having a threesome, uh, but it's probably rare they're gonna find a woman easily. 04:11:26.479 --> 04:11:33.920 We'll go to get to Laurie in a minute about that because she she may know a bit more about these these things, especially having done the great sex experiment. 04:11:34.079 --> 04:11:39.200 But what do you feel about what this guy is going through, Lewis? 04:11:39.280 --> 04:11:42.319 How he feels and how he should go about it. 04:11:42.959 --> 04:11:44.479 Yeah, it's uh it's a weird one. 04:11:44.639 --> 04:11:51.520 So I I think I've talked about this on the show before, like uh a mixed gendered threesome does not appeal to me. 04:11:51.680 --> 04:11:55.760 Uh my uh, you know, I'm just weird in my head and the way my bisexuality works. 04:11:55.920 --> 04:12:09.920 I can have you know a a threesome with with with men or more men if you want, and I could have a threesome with women or more women, but the mix of it in my head just doesn't do it for me. 04:12:10.000 --> 04:12:12.079 That's just me, it's just the way I'm built. 04:12:12.319 --> 04:12:14.879 Um however, this guy is. 04:12:14.959 --> 04:12:20.559 Um, and I think the the real thing there is about this anxiety and this overthinking around it, which really takes the fun out. 04:12:20.639 --> 04:12:24.559 I mean, you're probably not even gonna get an erection if you're if you're that stressed out about it. 04:12:24.719 --> 04:12:31.680 Um, so for me, I would say, you know, just you know, be on the apps, go to some events, whatever. 04:12:31.760 --> 04:12:38.159 Don't put the pressure on yourself, try and find some like-minded people and get into the fun of it. 04:12:38.239 --> 04:12:45.920 I mean, if you're gonna do it, you know, don't don't don't feel like it's you're negotiating a contract of, you know, you can touch me here, but I won't touch you there, and blah blah blah. 04:12:46.079 --> 04:12:46.719 It should be fun. 04:12:46.879 --> 04:12:48.559 It should be oh, I can't wait for this to happen. 04:12:48.639 --> 04:12:53.040 And and when it does, I'm gonna have you over this way and you're gonna be over that way, and blah, blah, blah, blah. 04:12:53.200 --> 04:13:02.559 Like, if it's not fun and it's become more anxiety-inducing, I would I would question whether you really want to do this, maybe. 04:13:03.280 --> 04:13:05.360 Now, we'll come to you in a minute, Laurie. 04:13:05.600 --> 04:13:09.600 I um different to Lewis. 04:13:09.680 --> 04:13:12.159 I this is probably one of my ultimate fancies. 04:13:12.319 --> 04:13:17.840 It has happened for me many years ago in a very weird situation, uh, with an older couple. 04:13:18.000 --> 04:13:20.799 Uh, and I had no idea that he was bisexual at all. 04:13:20.879 --> 04:13:22.319 It was just all a surprise to me. 04:13:22.399 --> 04:13:27.280 It all happened very quickly, and then they then they um emigrated to Australia and never saw them again. 04:13:27.440 --> 04:13:31.200 So I was in my twenties and they were in their 40s, so never happened again, sadly. 04:13:31.280 --> 04:13:36.399 So I've been there, and that works because I think it was not expected, and it was just natural. 04:13:36.479 --> 04:13:38.959 I wasn't planning anything to happen, kind of thing. 04:13:39.360 --> 04:13:43.040 Um but I do think it is an ultimate fantasy of a lot of bi men. 04:13:44.239 --> 04:13:49.120 What's your experience of this and what would your advice be to um this guy? 04:13:49.840 --> 04:13:55.600 Um, you know, I think I think because it's such a common fantasy, it's difficult. 04:13:55.920 --> 04:14:01.280 It's actually more difficult because it's like the the the typical male fantasy. 04:14:01.360 --> 04:14:04.879 Um and people also always want to find this funny. 04:14:05.040 --> 04:14:17.040 They'll write to me like I can provide them with an environment like like you know, like I know of a place that's like um open, you know, open house, which I don't, right? 04:14:18.079 --> 04:14:23.600 Um I think Lewis's advice is actually spot on, you know. 04:14:24.000 --> 04:14:27.600 You just gotta go and start looking at the apps and go. 04:14:27.760 --> 04:14:39.600 And Field is an app that has more uh is built for kink, BDSM, um, non-monogamy, you know, alternatives. 04:14:39.840 --> 04:14:41.600 So field is an app for that. 04:14:41.680 --> 04:14:45.440 There's the app Open, which is also, and there's a few more. 04:14:45.680 --> 04:14:47.520 Um, and so try the apps. 04:14:47.600 --> 04:14:50.399 Um, but you need to take your time meeting people. 04:14:51.760 --> 04:14:53.920 Sometimes it happens in the wild. 04:14:56.000 --> 04:15:01.360 Um, but I think these days most things start out online, unfortunately. 04:15:01.680 --> 04:15:06.319 Um, I would go to clubs, I would go to parties as well, and to see what it is. 04:15:06.559 --> 04:15:11.360 You might also consider going to a swingers situation, going to a swingers party. 04:15:11.600 --> 04:15:15.280 Um, swing hub is a big swinging app, it's a reputable app. 04:15:15.520 --> 04:15:20.959 Um are they are they particularly open to single men, those kind of things? 04:15:21.200 --> 04:15:22.559 Or do they tend to be just couples? 04:15:22.959 --> 04:15:24.159 It depends on the place. 04:15:24.319 --> 04:15:24.399 Right. 04:15:24.719 --> 04:15:25.920 It depends on the place. 04:15:26.159 --> 04:15:39.760 And a lot of the reasons that they will um a lot of them will say couples and single women only is because of unfortunately issues around what single straight men have done. 04:15:40.079 --> 04:15:48.639 But many of them will have a policy as to how if you are a bona fide single male, how you can get yourself an invite. 04:15:49.360 --> 04:15:51.600 Um, you've got to look at each party differently. 04:15:51.760 --> 04:15:56.000 There are some parties that are just not friendly to bisexual men, period. 04:15:56.719 --> 04:16:05.360 You know, there's swinging environments where um bisexual men aren't really welcome, but there are also swinging environments where they are. 04:16:05.600 --> 04:16:21.680 Um, I have a couple of really old podcasts of mine in on the A to Z that were around this, where I was interviewing a couple of bisexual, um male, non-monogamous folk who like to swing and who had stuff to say about all of this. 04:16:21.840 --> 04:16:23.600 I think it's persistence. 04:16:23.920 --> 04:16:31.680 So find out about the party and the group before going, talk to the people who organize it and just be blunt. 04:16:32.479 --> 04:16:33.440 Yeah, be honest. 04:16:33.600 --> 04:16:37.600 Yeah, be honest and see how you feel about their response. 04:16:37.760 --> 04:16:39.840 Your intuition will tell you a lot. 04:16:40.159 --> 04:16:42.000 Ready to ask a question of your own? 04:16:42.159 --> 04:16:46.159 Send an email now to info at maidenmanchester.tv. 04:16:46.319 --> 04:16:53.200 And in the subject line say, for the attention of bisexual brunch, and you might get featured on a future show. 04:16:53.440 --> 04:16:55.680 Don't be shy, they won't bite. 04:16:58.879 --> 04:17:01.120 Okay, well, that's bisexual brunch for this week. 04:17:01.280 --> 04:17:07.680 If you've got any comments, thoughts, musings, do get in touch with us at bisexual brunch on Twitter. 04:17:07.920 --> 04:17:10.319 And thank you for listening, and we'll see you later. 04:17:10.559 --> 04:17:11.520 Bye for now. 04:17:18.399 --> 04:17:20.799 So uh another bisexual brunch out of the way. 04:17:21.040 --> 04:17:33.280 I I want to say something, nothing uh related to sexuality here, but um I want to say something about um uh the the lady who's just been murdered in British politics, Anne Whiticum. 04:17:33.520 --> 04:17:43.680 Yeah, um, I had the pleasure of um working with her on a few occasions over the years, uh making uh radio programs. 04:17:43.920 --> 04:17:52.000 And I found her, my politics is completely different to Anne Whiticum, um, vehemently opposed to most of what she ever said politically. 04:17:52.319 --> 04:17:56.159 But as a person, she was fun and funny. 04:17:56.719 --> 04:18:00.879 Um and life, life and soul of the party a lot of the time, actually. 04:18:01.040 --> 04:18:02.399 She was great to work with. 04:18:02.559 --> 04:18:19.360 And I I've actually got a load of um interviews with her that I've done over the years, and some of the ones, some of the interviews which I did with her uh when she was talking about uh being on the ITV Celebrity Fit Club are absolutely hilarious because she really gave the fitness instructors what for. 04:18:19.520 --> 04:18:21.360 She was bulgy, she said what she thought. 04:18:22.159 --> 04:18:22.719 She was funny. 04:18:22.799 --> 04:18:28.159 I think there's one there's one clip I found where she was told at one point that they could eat between meals. 04:18:28.239 --> 04:18:30.159 She said, Oh, this is fantastic, a fantastic diet. 04:18:30.239 --> 04:18:31.200 That's diet I want. 04:18:31.360 --> 04:18:36.559 And um it you know, eat between meals meant she could eat two walnuts. 04:18:37.200 --> 04:18:39.920 And she was going, You wouldn't even give a budgie, that's all this. 04:18:40.639 --> 04:18:45.840 So she was she was she was really she was lovely, it's absolutely appalling what's happened, absolutely dreadful. 04:18:46.000 --> 04:18:49.360 Um it beggars belief. 04:18:49.440 --> 04:18:55.360 But but what also beggars belief for me is I'm somebody who didn't share a politics at all. 04:18:55.600 --> 04:19:03.680 Um uh and the the amount of hatred that's out there of somebody who's died is absolutely appalling. 04:19:03.840 --> 04:19:06.559 This social media, I'd close it down tomorrow, I really would. 04:19:06.639 --> 04:19:07.600 It's absolutely dreadful. 04:19:07.680 --> 04:19:09.120 So that's my little parting shot. 04:19:09.200 --> 04:19:14.799 Um Ann Whiticum um was fun and funny, uh, and life and soul of the party. 04:19:14.879 --> 04:19:23.280 And regardless of my politics, uh, which I was definitely not into her politics at all, um, you know, um, it's really, really shocked, a real shock to be honest. 04:19:23.360 --> 04:19:28.639 The other person it was sad to lose was who I've also interviewed, was Bonnie Tyler, who also died last week. 04:19:28.799 --> 04:19:34.879 Fantastic voice, you know, brilliant singer, somebody who was huge everywhere else, but uh but not that big here. 04:19:35.600 --> 04:19:45.280 Even though most people have sung her songs at uh at a at a karaoke or something, or have danced the way to to heartache, and you know, um what's the fame? 04:19:45.760 --> 04:19:52.319 The famous one was um uh holding out for a hero, and then the uh um kids of the heart was the big one. 04:19:52.879 --> 04:19:53.520 Yeah, absolutely. 04:19:54.559 --> 04:19:59.120 If we if this wasn't just podcasts, it was radio, we could play those songs, it'd be brilliant, but sadly we can't. 04:19:59.280 --> 04:20:00.479 So that's my parting shot. 04:20:00.559 --> 04:20:05.920 Uh we'd lost two very, very, very strong, strained women there in the last in the last week. 04:20:06.079 --> 04:20:08.319 Um, Laurie, then what are you up to at the moment? 04:20:08.399 --> 04:20:09.840 What's what's what's what's happening? 04:20:10.079 --> 04:20:12.079 You're not on great sex experiment now, are you? 04:20:12.159 --> 04:20:15.200 You've been from uh no, I did two seasons and then stopped. 04:20:15.280 --> 04:20:16.799 I don't even know if it's running this year. 04:20:16.879 --> 04:20:18.239 I mean, they did season three. 04:20:18.319 --> 04:20:20.399 I don't know if they're doing a season four. 04:20:20.639 --> 04:20:23.040 Um season three was boring without you. 04:20:23.200 --> 04:20:24.079 It's boring. 04:20:27.120 --> 04:20:34.159 Um I um well, I'm I'm out on the road again talking, doing talks. 04:20:34.399 --> 04:20:39.520 Um uh my combination of education and stand-up comedy. 04:20:40.239 --> 04:20:40.719 Fantastic. 04:20:41.120 --> 04:20:45.520 Psychology of Fetish and Kink is definitely a combination of education and stand-up comedy. 04:20:45.760 --> 04:20:47.600 Are you gonna be the editor fringe? 04:20:48.239 --> 04:20:52.799 Uh not this year, but um, people want me to, I've been been told I should do it. 04:20:52.879 --> 04:20:54.959 So I'm gonna try to do it next year. 04:20:55.040 --> 04:20:58.079 I'm gonna see if I can get it together to do it next year. 04:20:58.319 --> 04:21:06.000 Um I've done quite a bit of traveling um since you know with my recovery, and I've actually I'm sort of partially retired. 04:21:06.159 --> 04:21:10.879 Like I've actually learned how to take a break, which is an amazing, yeah, yeah. 04:21:11.120 --> 04:21:11.360 Yeah. 04:21:11.520 --> 04:21:34.719 So I'm doing um I'm doing a bunch of legal work on criminal cases where LGBTQ, uh BDSM, kink, and um uh non-monogamy have become a factor, criminal and um family court and civil, but not so much civil, where mostly what I'm doing is educating, educating judges, juries, and legal professionals. 04:21:34.879 --> 04:21:42.799 So look out for workshops for legal professionals so that um people can understand some of these things. 04:21:43.120 --> 04:21:49.840 Well, we all ought to get together at some point and join up and and whatever and and teach everyone about bisexuality, really, shouldn't we, Lewis? 04:21:50.000 --> 04:21:50.719 Don't you think? 04:21:51.840 --> 04:21:52.719 Absolutely. 04:21:53.040 --> 04:21:53.520 Absolutely. 04:21:53.600 --> 04:21:56.239 There's so much there's education that's really needed. 04:21:56.399 --> 04:21:58.559 So, you know, that's that's what I'm doing. 04:21:58.639 --> 04:22:10.959 I'm getting ready to um take a month-long trip with my grown son across the United States, going to um the national parks, the northern national parks, and taking photographs. 04:22:11.120 --> 04:22:12.000 Um that's good. 04:22:12.079 --> 04:22:12.399 Fantastic. 04:22:12.719 --> 04:22:15.040 Yeah, you know, some fun stuff. 04:22:15.200 --> 04:22:16.079 Um fantastic. 04:22:16.159 --> 04:22:19.680 And and hopefully you can we'll get you on bisexual bunch again again sometime soon. 04:22:19.760 --> 04:22:23.440 So, Lewis, you're you you've been busy doing your new podcast. 04:22:23.680 --> 04:22:24.559 How's it going? 04:22:25.040 --> 04:22:26.079 Doing so much stuff. 04:22:26.479 --> 04:22:29.760 So there's Bispective, it's the YouTube e podcasty one. 04:22:30.399 --> 04:22:33.440 Um, the other podcasts I have had to just put on pause on it. 04:22:33.520 --> 04:22:35.280 I basically, I'm not gonna bore you with it. 04:22:35.440 --> 04:22:36.959 There is so much going on right now. 04:22:37.120 --> 04:22:43.040 I actually, for the first time in my life, and you know, I love to be a busy person with a million things going on and all these children running around. 04:22:43.280 --> 04:22:48.559 I actually think for the first time, and maybe this is that I'm getting older, I've been enough more than I can. 04:22:48.959 --> 04:22:51.200 I said to my partner the other day, I think I built my life too big. 04:22:51.360 --> 04:22:54.399 There's that it's it doesn't there's too much going on. 04:22:54.479 --> 04:23:03.920 I can't reply to anyone, but um so I'm gonna try and spend the summer just making my life a bit smaller, I think, and um making it more manageable. 04:23:04.079 --> 04:23:19.680 But before we sign off, I I would just I would like to echo your comments about Anne, which I think you know I think there's a lot of people that probably um would think that we as LGBT people and bisexual people would be like, you know, uh have something nasty to say. 04:23:19.840 --> 04:23:25.440 I mean, I would say number one, murdering an old woman what a way to lose your argument. 04:23:25.520 --> 04:23:28.159 I mean, there's just no excuse, or murdering anyone, obviously. 04:23:28.319 --> 04:23:34.000 Um and I don't know whether, because there are people that sometimes ask me, like, why do you spend so much time on right-wing news channels? 04:23:34.079 --> 04:23:34.719 And blah blah blah. 04:23:35.040 --> 04:23:38.319 They're like, Well, I I I kind of feel like we need to talk to everyone. 04:23:38.479 --> 04:23:43.360 I don't know how we get any progress if we don't move to people that think differently to us. 04:23:43.520 --> 04:23:46.639 And some people like how maybe are never gonna think differently. 04:23:46.879 --> 04:23:49.040 Um, but that doesn't mean we can't be civil. 04:23:49.120 --> 04:23:53.280 And we've had a lot of stories about, you know, her having friends that are gay and all those kind of things. 04:23:53.360 --> 04:23:59.760 So there was a line, and we all have got to share the stuff, so we've all got to get on, and it's much better if we can say, look, we'll we'll agree. 04:24:00.239 --> 04:24:08.639 To disagree on that, and maybe yes, I would think differently if you know she'd have been prime minister and imposed all her policies, but we're not in that situation, are we? 04:24:08.799 --> 04:24:33.680 Um, and I don't know whether it is a bisexual thing where maybe we're just more inclined to be like, look, people are people are different, people are gonna think different things, and we just you know, I I wonder if there is something uniquely about us where because I do think there's so many bisexuals that that have a broad friendship group or can deal with people, whereas you know, some some other people in such as the LGBT are like, no, you're either this or you're that, and then I can't speak to you otherwise. 04:24:33.760 --> 04:24:40.399 Whereas I think that maybe we just deal with so many different kinds of people that maybe that there's something there, I don't know. 04:24:40.559 --> 04:24:47.600 But in any event, you can't be going around murdering people, and I don't think I I think that we need more crossing the line at the moment. 04:24:47.680 --> 04:24:51.280 I think we need more talking to people that think differently and all getting along. 04:24:51.600 --> 04:24:54.239 I think I I want to highlight that as well. 04:24:54.319 --> 04:24:58.079 That that's somehow civility seems to have been lost. 04:24:58.239 --> 04:25:01.920 I lost a job this week because I had a different opinion from somebody. 04:25:02.159 --> 04:25:05.040 Oh my god, I lost a project because I had a dip. 04:25:05.120 --> 04:25:05.600 We were fine. 04:25:05.680 --> 04:25:18.479 The person was gun-ho about the project, absolutely excited about the project, um, then said something political, and I said, I'm sorry, I um I don't agree with you, and I just should have shut up then. 04:25:18.639 --> 04:25:34.879 And I did I mentioned I I mentioned uh the answer situation to a friend of mine who at one point had conceded that yeah, there were another side to her, you know, that was the street from dancing all the rest of it, but then said, uh, after a while, I'd mentioned a few things about my encounter or he said, I'm not being lectured. 04:25:35.040 --> 04:25:36.479 It's the end of the conversation now. 04:25:36.639 --> 04:25:39.040 Yeah, I didn't I didn't approve of the woman and that. 04:25:39.120 --> 04:25:41.520 And I think he will he didn't approve of the woman, she's dead. 04:25:41.680 --> 04:25:42.159 You know what I mean? 04:25:42.239 --> 04:25:45.440 It's like you know, you can at least acknowledge that she had a different side. 04:25:45.520 --> 04:25:50.559 But the final thing to say on that, you mentioned about um having gay friends, and she did, she had a lot of gay friends. 04:25:50.719 --> 04:25:57.360 In fact, she became very good friends with Courtney Act during the um uh brother, didn't she? 04:25:58.319 --> 04:26:00.639 And Amanda Berry, who's been on this podcast. 04:26:00.879 --> 04:26:13.680 Yeah, no, absolutely, and also absolutely, and also um uh she was very supportive of the former Conservative MP Abby Proctor, who was accused of all sorts of child abuse and gone knows what. 04:26:14.000 --> 04:26:24.799 There was no proof at all, but his life was completely ruined by it, and she supported him professionally, emotionally, and practically, he says, which I don't know what that meant. 04:26:25.040 --> 04:26:27.600 Maybe help he helped she helped him with money or whatever. 04:26:27.840 --> 04:26:40.159 But that says a lot about the woman that yes, she had these Catholic views, she had a you know, but I don't think in re in in reality that when it came down to it, she held any grudges. 04:26:40.399 --> 04:26:55.280 She she was able to, from what I can tell, I say I had a few encounters with her, um, and those encounters were very sort of, yeah, she'd have the argy bargy on you know the big arguments or whatever, but then two seconds later she'd be having a laugh and a joke and being very friendly. 04:26:55.440 --> 04:27:00.559 So, you know, but at the end of the day, I've you know, I'm 53 now. 04:27:00.799 --> 04:27:13.920 Um, I remember a time in in politics when people across the spectrum did have friends, they did sport support each other, they did, they were very good friends, in fact, often more friendly than the people within their own parties. 04:27:14.159 --> 04:27:16.799 So that's what we've lost, and I think it's very sad. 04:27:16.959 --> 04:27:30.079 It was nice to see today in Parliament in uh at the Prime Minister's question time, Keir Starmer's last Prime Minister's question time, and both Kemi Badenock, the Conservative leader and the Lib Dem leader, David, were very supportive. 04:27:30.239 --> 04:27:33.440 And I thought to myself, we we need a bit more of this, really. 04:27:33.600 --> 04:27:34.319 Do you know what I mean? 04:27:34.559 --> 04:27:39.440 Yeah, well, I mean, I think I think what Lewis has said is is is spot on. 04:27:39.600 --> 04:27:51.440 I think, you know, it may be a bise it it that bisexual people are used to thinking more flexibly and are used to having to, you know, take different opinions and different mindsets. 04:27:51.600 --> 04:27:52.959 But I feel like we've lost that. 04:27:53.040 --> 04:28:04.159 And I find being out in society often so um difficult now because the lack of civility is just amazing. 04:28:04.319 --> 04:28:11.280 I mean, the attitude, the the things people were saying about her, and but I've seen that happen more than with just her. 04:28:11.360 --> 04:28:15.120 And I I just I'm like, who raised you? 04:28:15.360 --> 04:28:22.719 You know, like how how do you not understand that what happened was disgusting, you know? 04:28:22.959 --> 04:28:32.719 I mean, you would think that they were that you would think that the that she was an axe murderer and had murdered a million people and somebody killed her and like, you know, she had it coming. 04:28:33.200 --> 04:28:36.879 You know, it just didn't um and and I find that really sad. 04:28:36.959 --> 04:28:41.600 And I I like like to try to be an optimist and think that we can make a difference. 04:28:41.760 --> 04:28:50.879 And I do continue to try to talk to people from uh other viewpoints, which increasingly are very left. 04:28:51.360 --> 04:28:58.639 Well, maybe with that when we end on this, the world needs to be a bit more by yeah, everyone needs to be a bit more by so I think so. 04:28:59.120 --> 04:29:01.120 This program is an MIM production. 04:29:01.280 --> 04:29:04.000 Remember to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.