Bisexual Brunch - March 2026 - two powerful bi journey stories from Amsterdam and Manchester. Worrying stats about premature bi deaths in the UK, excitement over Heated Rivalry's bi lead Conner Storrie and two Ask a Bisexual questions

Ashley Byrne and Lewis Oakley are joined this time by sex educator Laura Clarke as the panel discuss premature bi deaths in the UK, there's lots of discussion around Heated Rivalry, how it's proving a big hit with middle aged women and has put bisexuality on the global drama map. But is the bi story really getting through? Danielle Manning is on the streets of Camden in London to find out. Ashley and actor Tom Ward-Thomas then analyse the plot in more detail. There are two Ask a Bisexual Questions and two powerful bi journey stories - one from a 54 year old bi businesswoman in Manchester and another from a 34 year old mental health worker in Amsterdam. Meanwhile Ashley reveals Bisexual Brunch now reaches 95% of countries across the world.

Produced by Ashley Byrne

Researched by Andrew Edwards

A Made in Manchester Production.

Support the show by donating via buymeacoffee.com/info59

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

It's another bisexual brunch, this time with Lewis Oakley, Ashley Byrne, and special guest panelist Laura Clark.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

If nobody was told what she were meant to do, if there weren't any rules, then we would be living in a totally different format.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

We as journalists and activists have always found it very difficult to find people who will openly talk about being bisexual.

SPEAKER_12 0:25

Just don't think there are enough bi perspectives and by issues.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

I feel like we've got to talk about it because we're really comfortable doing that.

SPEAKER_12 0:32

It can be really intimidating bisexuality is not really understood because people have bisectivities.

SPEAKER_08 0:37

And the second you mention bisexual, just their ears pick up.

SPEAKER_12 0:41

Oh well, you you're still confused, right? No, I'm not confused. I've always found myself at the mercy of gay and straight advice.

SPEAKER_04 0:49

Can have a bit of competition to see who's the better bisexual bruncher. This is Bisexual Brunch.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

So we've unpacked bisexual brunch this time around. One of those bumper episodes many of you love to binge on. And for those that don't, well, remember it is 2026, and you can pause, fast forward, rewind, and come back to it all whenever you like. Our guest panelist joining Lewis and I is Laura Clark, author of the new book Step by Step: The Ultimate Guide for Bisexual, Pansexual, and Queer Young People, which we heard all about in the last episode. Laura is with us for the duration of the show. We've got two bisexual brunch, bisexual journey stories. One from Chris in Amsterdam, who tells us about his struggle to come to terms with his bisexuality and how mental health and cannabis addiction have played their part. And here in Manchester, I've been round to Nikki Wake's abode in the city centre to hear about how a serial entrepreneur is making the most of her bisexual identity and really embracing ethical non-monogamy in her mid-50s. Nikki's set up several dating apps among many other businesses, but she's also been through a lot. She was widowed a few years ago and, like Chris, has faced addiction issues. Two powerful bisexual journey stories this time around, then. We've lots of chat around the hot new Canadian drama Heated Rivalry, which does, after all, include a bisexual character. We're in Camden in London to find out if that fact has actually got through to people because the bisexuality hasn't really been stressed much in the PR. And we've got two asker bisexual questions this time around as well.

SPEAKER_04 2:36

You're listening to the Bisexual Brunch Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

So, first of all, then let's start with um a downer really. Talk about death. The ONS has uh brought some statistics out um because they do these um surveys on a regular basis. There's also the census, of course, as well. Um, but what they tend to do is they release elements of them at different points. So you'll hear the statistics that come out, and it's several years ago or whatever. Anyway, on this one, that they've come out with a load of stats around three years worth of stats around death. And LGB, um, not the T, LGB in this instance. LGB people apparently uh during a period I think 2001 to 2024 uh died earlier um on in general than uh straight people did. Uh but if you dig a little bit deeper into this, these stats, the B comes out worse than the LGB if you put them together, um, or uh if you compare uh the B with the L and G. Um, and it's all sorts of things from um you know people who are dying from uh drug uh addiction, uh alcohol issues, um mental health when it comes to suicide and all these kind of things, and also other health issues as well. Um, I sent you two a little bit of a note on this earlier on. Um, I don't think it really comes as a surprise to us, does it, Lewis?

SPEAKER_13 4:11

I've got to be honest, I read these stats and I just kind of thought to myself, well, nothing here is shocking. Like I know all this. Um and that I think is terrible because I think A, maybe I've been desensitized from doing this for too long. Um, but B, it is shocking. Um, and I think the the fact that we've had to sort of go through and find out the bisexual statistics and prove what I'm always saying, which is that they're always amalgamated, it's always LGB people of this, LGBT people are that. But if you tease it out, you actually see that this is more severe in bisexual people. Um, and my big worry about all of this is if we don't make a big enough of a stand about this and enough noise about it, say if anyone does care that this is happening to LGB people, they'll look for solutions that tailor LGB people, which really means it'll be 70% weighted to what affects gay men anyway. And it's like, but the the struggles bisexual people face are so different and unique, and even different by gender, and those things can play an issue. So it's like it's like we almost need to go in and have a bigger exploration of this. But we're you know, we're lucky to even get people to acknowledge that this is something in LGBT people. So diving down into the bisexual thing, I I I just I don't really know what we do. And I again, maybe this is being desensitized because I've seen figures like this before. And I've written articles over the years, of course, and I've brought it up on podcasts and TVs, and you know, but it's you know, nothing fundamentally changes because fundamentally the people in charge of our progress, LGBT organizations, don't put enough focus on this.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

I think that there's a real response to this within the LGBT community with charities and groups being set up to specifically um address and tackle LGBT health inequalities. But a lot of times in those rooms, by people are not being represented. I've worked for a number of number of them over my time and have very much been that bisexual voice champion in the room. Um, but I think the worry is that we have amazing people doing really, really important work, like Lewis said, to tackle these issues. But if they're 70% focused on gay men and you don't have the people on the inside, you don't have the bi-representation on the inside, then they're not necessarily going to be getting to the heart of the issue, which is oftentimes that bi people specifically are facing even worse outcomes. And my first thought when I saw this study was of a study that actually came out in 2024, um, which basically reported that bisexual and lesbian women have higher rates of premature mortality when compared to heterosexual women. And again, what that study saw was that lesbian women are likely to die 20% sooner, and bisexual women are likely to die 37% sooner. So again, we can see that higher rate, that higher mortality rate for bisexual people. But I think that study is really interesting because there's also the medical misogyny of all of that, and there's the fact that women generally are not particularly believed when it comes to healthcare. The NHS recently introduced something called Jess's rule or Jess's law, which is where sort of if somebody goes to uh their GP three times with the same health issue, then they have to rethink and sort of change up their tactics to make sure that they are um that you know the the the the woman, the the girl or woman is being paid attention to properly. And that came because somebody really unfortunately um died because they were being brushed off by their healthcare provider. So we sort of already knew that this was an issue that bi and lesbian women were facing, but to see that it's actually it's extended into sort of the whole bi community is really interesting and unfortunate. And obviously a lot more work needs to be done that is bi-specific in this area.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Yeah, I just think a lot of our lives generally, and we'll talk later on about a heated rather and what that means, or whatever, and the various other elements that are appearing around bisexuality, but so much of our by-experience, as it were, seems to be uh either airbrushed or skirted over, doesn't it? And we we talk a lot or we hear a lot, I've heard in Parliament last few weeks. Um there's various MPs have have brought up the issue of men's mental health, and there's been um days dedicated to helping men with you know on suicide prevention, all these kind of things. And I I mean I may be wrong, I don't know, don't know the particular stats, but I mean, well, in some respects, this ties into it, as in it does show that there's a a lot of people who are bisexual taking their own lives and whatever. But you know, the the isolation issue around bisexuality, the fact that so many people feel isolated throughout their entire lives a lot of the time, that's going to add extra stress and pressure around mental health. And and you know, I think there is we we talked about it last time, didn't we, Laura, a little bit that there's a kind of attitude that all these things have been done, you know, we've done all this kind of things to LGBT, whatever, these are not our issues anymore. Nobody's really bothered about sexuality anymore, nobody's everyone's everyone's fluid, nobody really bothers about their identity, all this kind of stuff, nonsense, really. Um, and of course, that plays into the whole thing that says that young people are ahead of the game, they're fine, they're not not got an issue with any of these kind of things. But I would expect a lot of those young people that you're dealing with on a regular basis, um, who are bisexual, are really struggling with mental health issues. I mean, I don't know how I mean can you can you tell? Do you understand that? Did you manage to connect with any people on those kind of things?

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Absolutely. I think what people don't tend to realize is that you might have this kind of perception of young people as being very um unbothered by sexual orientation or um gender issues, all of these things. And to some extent, I think that is true. I think generation generationally we're seeing um sort of increased positive responses or even more just kind of like relaxed attitudes towards these things. But you've got to remember the young people don't exist in isolation, they are within school systems and you know they have teachers, they have parents, they have people in their lives who haven't necessarily got those same attitudes. So, in one regard, yes, you might have young people who are perhaps more comfortable coming out among their friends, but then if they have parents or teachers or youth leaders or adults in their lives who aren't necessarily on the same page or who haven't sort of caught up with the times as much, that's obviously gonna increase that kind of feeling of isolation, of not being able to be yourself. And then those poor mental health rates that can contribute to things. I mean, we know that like youth homelessness is so much higher among LGBT people. I think it's one in four LGBT youth that is LGBT, which is really disproportionate rates. So we see those real-world effects as well. I think there's that feeling of isolation, but then also if you're homeless or if you are struggling with an eating disorder, if you're struggling with um drug and alcohol abuse, all of that is gonna feed into worse physical but also worse mental health outcomes as well.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

And also there's a pressure, isn't there, on young people, whether we, you know, pretend it's not there or not. I think there is still this binary pressure to go one way or the other when it comes to sexuality, depending on the people you're with or whatever it may be. You know, so you're always going to get the pressure of you know, a young man is being pushed to, you know, settle down with a girl or whatever, or uh a woman's being pushed to have kids or whatever it may be. There's different directions that people are pushed in in society, aren't there, really?

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know, when we talk about young people generally being more accepting, I think we also need to acknowledge that that's certain groups of young people, but then what we're also seeing is a rise in far-right thinking and ideologies and young people, um, particularly young men who are being sucked into sort of like manosphere spaces who hold much more uh sort of traditional views, and there's that backlash to anything that is considered woke. Um, and I think that bisexuality particularly falls into that. I would say sort of more so than than even gay and lesbian identities, because I think there's that sense of even more deviance or of being disruptive, not choosing a side. Um, so yeah, I think it's really, really difficult for young people to kind of not feel that they are settling into a traditional role and a traditional sort of understanding of sexuality.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

Yeah, we're rebels, aren't we? We're rebels. And and Lewis, uh later on we're going to be talking to this Ishman from Amsterdam who talks, um, he's actually works in mental health and he talks a bit about therapy and various things. And even he struggles to to talk about it within the circles that he's in. And he was acknowledging that that there are very few people out there who are University of Commerce counsellors who actually understand bisexuality, which is shocking, isn't it? Really? You know, people are being pushed often in these counselling situations to acknowledge their you know their gay side or whatever it may be, but not to explore the bisexual stuff.

SPEAKER_13 13:36

I mean Well, I've I've had a lot of people uh reach out over the years that kind of say my therapist tried to basically convince me I was gay, and that when someone goes in struggling with their sexuality, maybe you know, a lot of therapists' point of reference is um, oh, they're struggling to come out as gay. That's what I've got to help them with. I know a lot of bisexual people that have felt unsupported when accessing sort of therapy and mental health statistics, and that I gotta say, makes it harder to do the things that I do. So obviously, I run the advice column, Ask a Bydad. And a lot of them, I want to sort of signpost people onto other things and say, you know, but you know, I'm not a registered therapist go and speak to one. But then I almost think, well, I'm not gonna set I I know the reality that I'm not gonna set them up and pretend like, you know, a therapist is definitely gonna get this right because I am aware that so many of them get it wrong. So it's just very it's again comes to bisexual isolation where it's like I am someone that a lot of bisexual people have turned to over the years for help, and I sort of feel curtailed in where to point them sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

I feel I'm not a counsellor or I'm not trained in all that kind of thing, but just doing bisexual brunch, I often feel as though I'm a counsellor for all these people when I'm doing these bisexual journey stories, you know, and it's it's it's nice to be able for them to say how great it is and what we do for them is brilliant, and that's really nice. But we're not experts in that sense, and it is quite annoying, really, that society is letting the buy side down, isn't it, Laura?

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Yeah, I mean, I did work with so I used to work for the National LGBT partnership, and we published a couple of reports in 2024 that I contributed to. So one was called Hard Done Buy, which was generally about by healthcare. And there were a number of reports within that of people going to therapists and therapists essentially attempting some kind of conversion therapy and telling people they had to pick a side. And then we also published that year the by and borderline report, which explored borderline personality diagnoses, um, particularly in by women and femmes. Um and that was really fascinating as well, the way that bisexuality within a um psychiatry or a therapist context is so often pathologized and seen as a symptom of unstable identity, and then further from that a sign of things like personality disorder. So it really is so hit and miss. And when you're trying to find a therapist, there's sites online where you can select, you know, an LGBT. I want a therapist that um is an LGBT-friendly therapist. But then as we know, a lot of people are going to be ticking that box um maybe with goodwill, but not necessarily the education behind it. Um, and then on the darker side of that, you're also going to have people that are ticking that box, maybe are, you know, queer themselves, but are biphobic in some way. So even trying to go online and find a bi-friendly therapist by using that tool, you might not find exactly what you're looking for. So it is really challenging. And I think that more it all comes down to more education for therapists and for, you know, psychiatry and um all healthcare professionals really to understand what being bi is uh and what it isn't.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

But it it strikes me we haven't got any leadership, have we? I mean, I think we're probably we're probably the ones who are leading the way in a way. You know, I don't see any uh I mean there are a lot of politicians now who are uh LGBT, loads of them. There are several one ones who are uh there's a there's a Lib Dem um politician Leila Moran, some question time later on, she's pansexual. She's talked a bit about her sexuality as a Green MP, Carla Carla Denier is bisexual, whatever. But none of them seem, and there's a this former leader of the Scottish Greens as well, like we had on the show, but none of them seem to see uh bisexuality as a real uh issue to get behind. I think there's a tendency for a lot of bi people, we've discussed this a lot, for by a lot of bi people to feel as though they are in a way privileged, that we don't have the same issues that uh you know gay people have had the homophobia and all the rest of it and all the different things that go with it. But we are the biggest of the of the of the cohort, aren't we? Of LGBT, the biggest numbers, and there are a lot of people suffering. You know, we need we need some leadership, don't we? And we we've tried several times, haven't we, Lewis, over the years to get Stonewall on the show, and that never happens, does it?

SPEAKER_13 18:06

No. Well, it looks like they've got no staff at the moment, so maybe we forgive them now. We should join the hundreds of people, we didn't bother them either.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

I mean, Lori, you've worked in this field to an extent in terms of the advocacy and trying to get things moving, whatever. Where do we go with it, do you think? Because we've obviously got a voice as bisexual brunch. We can challenge people if we want to. Um, who do we target? Who should we be focusing on, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 18:34

It's it's so challenging because what I've I work in a training capacity and I deliver a lot of training from a freelance side of things to charities, healthcare organizations, companies, businesses, um, all that jazz. And typically what I notice is that I am either asked for a very generic LGBT training, and obviously being me, I try to make sure that as much of that is biaspecific as possible. Um, or I have people coming to me and asking specifically about training around gender diversity and trans non-binary identities, which is amazing. It's great that companies want to improve their knowledge there. Um, but it's so rare that I get, and I advertise that I deliver this training, it's so rare that I get bookings specifically for buy training. Um, so I would really love to see more. I don't know if anyone is listening who works for a company or a charity, but I would really love to see more people actually thinking, okay, we've had um maybe an LGBT training a couple of years ago. How much of that, you know, was looking at buy issue specifically? The answer is probably not very much of it, um, get based on the trainings that I've personally done in the past when at those companies. Um, and actually looking at how you can prioritize this. I'd really love to see um more pressure on LGBT charities to consult with bi experts and to get that by training themselves. Because just because you're an LGBT charity, it doesn't mean you're exempt from biphobia or it doesn't mean that you know absolutely everything. So I think we need to be making sure that we put pressure on the charities and the companies that are supposed to be championing us and saying, actually, you're letting us slip through the clap the cracks. And do you actually know um what the key issues are that we're facing and really pressure them to get that education and to consult with the people who are experts in this field?

SPEAKER_13 20:26

Do you guys feel like it's a good time for this now? Because kind of to what you were saying before about the how the world is changing, like I really felt really irritated. Like, you know how 2020 2016 is trending? Like 2016 was when I started doing this. So I've been doing this for like a decade now. And at the time it seemed like, oh, there was a real focus on the LGBT, um, obviously a big focus on trans as well. Um, but it felt like a lot more companies were putting money into pride, people were talking about it, and that's when I was getting more and more frustrated. Like, hold on, I can see that all these companies are pouring money into this, I can see that this is more on the agenda, people are talking about LGBT stuff now. Now, fair enough, like some of that was trans and a lot of that was negative, so you said that wasn't really helpful. Um, but there was a focus. Whereas now I feel like, as you were saying, there is sort of an anti-woke thing now. Not that I think bisexuality is even particularly woke. You would be amazed how many right-wingers I know that are bisexual. So I'm I kind of like I feel like this is a politically neutral issue anyway. But at a time where we are seeing things like Stonewall, like their funding is for you know going through the floor, and other organizations are really struggling. We've got things like Manchester Prize like going in solvent because they don't have have the money to do the prize. So it feels like actually we're at a time where there's more skepticism and a bit more, I feel a bit more backlash to LGBT stuff in general, as part of the anti woke stuff. At the same time, There's little funding. I just kind of feel like if they weren't gonna take it seriously at the height when they had public backing wind in their sales and money, I just I and I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but I just don't see why they would take it seriously now. Even though I do think if they could handle the bisexual issue right, they actually would gain a lot more support because so many more people are bisexual. So it affects more people, and so many more people are wouldn't even call themselves bisexual, but are on that spectrum. So I do feel like if there was an issue the the LGBT organizations could reinvent themselves around, putting bisexuality at the center, I think, could be helpful, but I just don't see that they really care.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

I think a lot of the bi community have really turned away from those mainstream LGBT charities and are turning to more grassroots um kind of groups and organizations. And I'm always going to be supportive of grassroots, grassroots initiatives. Um, but I think you're right, Lewis. I think if they actually showed that they cared about the bi community, they could get so many more service users, more funding, uh, more opportunities. Um it just feels like it would be beneficial all around, really.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

I think from the bisexual point of view, forgetting the L and L and the G, as it were, just from both our point of view, I think it's better for us to target the issues, as it were. So for example, I know there are lots of groups that are involved in suicide prevention. I've been involved in a few over the years, and I think those groups would would probably benefit from having our expertise to an extent, you know what I mean, to talk about the fact there are you know, I mean, I I again we don't know completely, but these stats do help help uh a little bit, but in the sense that obviously that we know that more men try to take their own lives than than women do, and it tends to be a lot of young men as well, doesn't it? Tend to try and take their own lives. The biggest killer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Is is there a correlation between that and and and sexuality? Maybe we need to try and find a a way of well, we said this many times before, a way of encouraging people to talk about being bisexual, even if it's some kind of thing where they come on they come on the radio but anonymously and talk about their sexuality for the first time ever, like we do on bisexual brunch, really, but on a bigger scale on some national radio station or whatever. Do you know what I mean? I think people need to be talking about it more. That's the main thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_13 24:25

The exploration of masculinity through the eyes of a bisexual man would be quite interesting because I do think that there's still divides there. And I think as well, trying to heal the straight community, if you want to call them that, at the same time. I had someone fascinating on my podcast recently, my other podcast, um, who was talking about we never really talk about. I've got so many podcasts, literally. Um but we never really talk about um what homophobia is cost straight men, which is often like sort of brotherly love, and you know, that kind of feeling that they can't get too close to another man, not in a sexual way. Um and I think that that is something that that through the lens of bisexuality and making bisexuality more accepted, and also improving the world for bisexual people where those where certain things aren't weird anymore, would help like the wider community of like it's like if you were bi, you would just say you're a bi. Like you don't need to prove your masculinity.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Yeah, and I think we're seeing, particularly with this rise of the far right, we're seeing a lot of allies who were previously very vocal, very visible allies who might still have that support, um, and that might be their ideology, but they're withdrawing public sort of visible support out of fear of aligning themselves with a group that is currently being so attacked. So I think you're right. I think this could have sort of like more visibility and being louder about bioidentities could have that positive impact on on sort of CisHec people as well, who want to support the community and want to have things to sort of rally around and give their support to.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Yeah, I think we need to target though those those stats that are in that um the ONS um report. I think we should target them and look at where who's come who's who's who's doing work on drugs, who's doing work on um mental health, who's doing work on the various other things that were in there, and and see if they you know talk to them about what they're doing for by people. And if they're not doing a great deal, I think we should offer up our services to an extent. Obviously, I'm not sure you and I, Lewis are gonna go and do some stuff on alcohol or drug awareness or whatever, but we've got stories. We we have six or seven years now of material of people who've spoken to us about their experiences.

SPEAKER_13 26:53

Two things on that, love the idea, but I think two other things though. One is that it's not just us, like everyone listening to this podcast right now, and we know we have impressive numbers. I am sure if all of us, you know, got a bit activisty in our lives or just kind of saw where we can make a difference, it doesn't have to be an activisty way, but you know, if you do work in uh, you know, um alcohol or or mental health or something, you know, asking those questions as I was listening to this podcast the other day and it made me think, why are we not doing this? Why are we not doing that? And just being as vocal as you can, because guess what, guys? Like this there's so many of us. If we stood our ground and said, no, not doing it, not until this is taken seriously, this would be solved quite quickly. We all just need to stand up for ourselves. We literally outnumber so many. We're the second most common sexuality after being straight. Like we outnumber everyone. So if we all stood together, I think that we could make some moves and we would just hound them and not shut up until we get what we need. Um, so that's number one idea. Number two is I don't know if everyone knows this, but bisexual brunch started because we did a BBC documentary um years ago. Well, would have been like coming up to say years ago. Um The World Service, yeah. I wonder if we look to do a documentary again. You know, do we do what? But do we do a visual one this time? Do you know? Could we get it on Netflix? You know, an exploration of bisexuality, bring this podcast into a visual realm and have it be there as a resource for people to actually, you know, because documentaries they still make people think. And you, you know, we could tell such a great narrative of this is how many people it is, this is how little funly it's received, this is actually the reality. When you tease out these results and these statistics, this is what it's actually like. Getting some real voices on there, I think that could be quite powerful. Absolutely, it could be.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Um, the only thing I would say is uh being cynical and having been making radio programs and some TV programmes for 20 odd years now, it comes round every now and again you get the opportunity to do, we did that programme that you just mentioned um at Made in Manchester. We produced that program with Nikki for um World Service, um, and that was you're right, about 10 years ago, maybe a bit less than 10 years ago. But then the one before that we did with Tom Robinson, which was probably about eight or nine years before on Radio 4. And if you look, if you go and look in the BBC archives, that is literally the only programs that were dedicated solely to bisexuality in that 20-year period. I mean, it's just ridiculous, really.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

That doesn't surprise me.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

No, it's just crazy, isn't it? The whole thing's crazy. Well, let's talk then a little bit about where bisexuality is rearing its head and it's getting taken a little bit seriously. There's question marks over this as well, and it ties into what we've been talking about. So uh oh but before I do, by the way, just to let you know, um, this is a parish notice thing I need to mention. Did you realise there's a pansexuality uh sorry, pansexual visibility day? Did you both realise that? And I just wanted to just mention to everybody that it's on the 24th of May this year. Uh so we'll plan to do some um uh probably a special show around that because we we do always say that we cover pansexuality as well because it's part of the umbrella. And in fact, I think Laura, didn't you say you you think of yourself mainly as pansexual, is that right, rather than bisexual?

SPEAKER_01 30:32

I use the word bisexual because it was sort of the first word that I discovered. But I the thing that I always say is that if I was coming of age now, I might align myself with that term. I feel very all of the terms apply to me.

unknown 30:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Depends what day it is, I suppose.

SPEAKER_07 30:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Good stuff, good stuff. Okay, so let's talk then about Heated Rivalry, which is this new drama that's come out. I said uh incorrectly on the last show that it was uh partly Irish, it wasn't actually. It's got I have some Irish producers in it somewhere online, but but basically it's a Canadian um drama to come out of Canada, not America. Um somebody wrote to me and said you're you're you talk about airbrushing the bisexuals, you're airbrushing Canadians, and we don't like being airbrushed and you know, from because everyone thinks everything's American, definitely. So basically, it's Canadian, it's about ice hockey. Um, it's focused on a Canadian uh ice hockey player and a Russian ice hockey player. Um, it's getting everyone hot under the collar. Apparently, mainly middle-aged women, uh, middle-aged and older women are loving it, apparently. Um, we'll we'll talk about the bisexuality stuff in a moment, but let's talk about that for a second, Laura. This is a taboo that's now being broken, isn't it? Because for years and years and years, people have known that men are you know obsessed with women having getting it on together, and it's become a bit of a fetish that a lot of women don't like, and we we talk about that all the time. Um, but often it's been seen that nobody no women women don't want to see two men at it. That's not uh that doesn't happen. Nikki's often warned us that that it that's not true, but we've never been able to prove it. But now you're getting loose women were talking about it the other day, there's endless stuff in on in in on forums, etc. What is it about that women that they like seeing two two guys getting on? Tell us more, Laura.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

So I can't speak, I'm not quite middle-aged yet, so I can't speak for middle-aged women. Um, but I am very interested that this isn't public knowledge, because I would say that I have had many conversations with female friends who are very into watching gay porn, watching guys get it on in TV shows. I feel like this is actually quite a common thing. It's just maybe not as talked about as men enjoying watching um lesbian sex. And I have a lot of thoughts about this from a kind of sex educator point of view. Um, I think that a lot of the time, from from talking to female friends and from discussing what, you know, because I find I like the TV show. I think I've watched five episodes, still haven't watched the finale yet. So no spoilers. Um, but I think it's a hot TV show. Like I, even though it in theory shouldn't do anything for me, I can totally understand why women are finding this um hot, why they're enjoying watching it. And I think honestly, it all comes down to the fact that the vast majority of porn and erotica, even like light erotica, is very centered through a straight male gaze. And what I've found from speaking to other women is that whenever they're watching, say, straight porn, for example, they are forced into the perspective of the man because that is the the way that porn is shot, and it's all from the perspective of the man, and they feel when they're watching it that the woman is being fetishized or objectified or that the sex is unrealistic in some way. And then it's not even like you can turn to lesbian porn and enjoy that because that is also primarily shot through a male gaze and is very much for the pleasure of men. So you have straight porn that is for the pleasure of straight men, then you have uh lesbian porn that is for the pleasure of straight men. And I think there's something about watching two men have sex where you are, I I guess you don't have that feeling of it being unrealistic because you haven't been in that situation yourself. So you can just suspend belief and be like, yeah, this, I can, I can buy this. Whereas when you have women in stilettos and fake males and all these very over the top loud orgasms, you can't suspend that disbelief in the same way. But I think also it's not necessarily um, it's not shot through that straight male gaze. It's not primarily, it's not disregarding or disrespecting women, it's not treating women in this objectifying way, it's just two men who seem to be on even footing as well. Like I think that's what I get when I watch the show is you see these two guys who are just enjoying sex together. And I think it's so rare that you see that in straight sex, you see sex being done to a woman. And every in sex, um, you see the the the sex is happening for the pleasure of the the viewer, for the the male viewer. So it's really rare to just see two people experiencing pleasure together. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 35:32

Yeah, it does, it does. I'll come to you in a minute, Lewis, to answer answer your views on this particular aspect of uh the show. But uh before I do, these these are some of the things that I I dug out from people who've been talking online. So these are some uh comments from women online. The depiction of these guys' relationship showcases meaningful, exhilarating intimacy full of tenderness and desire. Uh, somebody else said, it hits women like me so hard because it depicts a relationship where all parties involved are treated equally. It's just nice to watch smutts where nobody is being degraded or devalued, and the pleasure of both parties is the top priority. So that's more or less what you were saying, Laura, really. Another woman commenting commenting on the sex scene said she enjoyed that the sex scenes were intimate in a way that makes consent visible and said it is really attractive to see men depicted in that way. Uh, somebody else said, in gay porn, the guys are a thousand times hotter than straight porn. Um, it's just so hot watching two men go at it without any of the weird power stuff you get in straight sex scenes. And somebody else said, I watch gay porn because the guys are way hotter and the sex feels more real and rough. And then somebody else said there's something about two men being completely into each other that feels so unfiltered and powerful, and in a sense, it's quite it's quite new, isn't it? This because people haven't really in the mainstream, people haven't really sort of experienced that in a way. And to be fair, um, even in gay circles um and gay porn and whatever and gay things I've watched over the years, uh, some gay stuff can be quite hard, actually. It can be quite cruel. And actually, this is quite a nice loving sort of uh drama, which I think uh I think helps. Lewis, what was your reaction to that? Just specifically on the fact that women seem to love it, and particularly middle-aged and older women.

SPEAKER_13 37:29

Well, maybe this is a great first step. Um, on in the sense of, I think one of the biggest issues for bisexual men is that they think that women will not find them attractive and that their past with men is is sort of a detractor in that sense. I've had lots of people reach out to me over the years talking about that, people saying that, oh, I put bisexual on my dating profile, no women have ever swiped on me since, or you know, the the men that reach out that are in their 40s and 50s married, and they were like, you know, I've got this hideous secret, I'm bisexual, um, and I just, you know, I don't want to die without my wife knowing that about me. Um, so maybe it's almost dialing it all the way back. If we can establish that there are a lot of women that find men hooking up hot, then maybe the next step is dating those people isn't that bad. Um, and so you know, and then maybe we get to a point where bisexual men are by and large don't worry about um, you know, their sexuality being a turn-off to women, and maybe that then leads to less mental health statistics and all the things we talked about before. So it could be an interesting first step, to be honest, through for a very strange. I mean, it's so weird how the issues affecting bisexual men and women differ because bisexual women obviously deal with over sexualize, and that's almost you know, that's gone too far. Whereas I think for bisexual men, maybe they they need a bit of sexualizing in the sense of they're seen as desirable. Like maybe that's the balance that we need to get. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

What we haven't heard of, of course, and it'd be interesting to know, and maybe we can um ask people now on the on the show, people might get in touch. Um, you know, women are enjoying it, and I wonder what that leads to in conversations with their um male partners. I'm wondering, do you know what I mean? If they're saying, Oh, actually, I quite like they're hinting they quite like to see two guys getting it on, is that going to lead to potentially bisexuality coming out somewhere in their relationships? You know, and I'm not, you know, this is me wishful thinking being as bisexual, but do you know what I mean? There might there might be something else there going on, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Yeah, it's interesting. I I feel well, I've definitely I've said to my partner knows I've been watching it most of today. Um, and he sort of um doesn't particularly have an interest in the show, but has been asking me like how it is, and I've said, you know, it's it's pretty, it's pretty hot. Um, and I feel like he's just accepted that at face value, but I wonder how that would translate in other uh relationships where bisexuality and queer, me and my partner talk about queer stuff all the time. So yeah, I'm really interested in that. The one thing, just to go back to Lewis's point about kind of making um by men more desirable or people more desired, um, sorry, desiring by men more. Um, I think there is a real possibility of that. However, there was one bit in the show that I did have a little bit of a like, oh, like this could um reinforce some negative stereotypes, which was there's a moment where the um the two male leads are one of them is having sex with a female partner, and the other one is um having some solo time in the shower. And they're both thinking of each other. And the way it's shot is very clear that they're thinking of each other. So you have this male character who is having sex with a woman um and who later comes out as gay and is thinking of a male partner. And I, in that moment, I just felt like I feel like this is gonna reinforce every straight woman's fear that if you have sex with a man who is interested in men, that he's gonna be thinking, you know, not satisfied, thinking about male partners and is eventually gonna come out as gay. Um, so yeah, I'd be interested in hearing Lewis's thoughts on that. But it just felt like a little like moment to me where I was quite nervous.

SPEAKER_13 41:26

Yeah, so full disclosure, I've only seen episode one. No, I mean, this is the thing with media needing to be responsible because I always talk about the damage Sex in the City did. And if Sex in the City had done buy men justice back in the 90s, I genuinely feel we wouldn't have this trouble. Yeah, if they'd have just made that seem like a normal thing and it lasted a few episodes and everything was fine. I really think a lot of women would have had a different thought on it. So we actually do have to be really careful about where media then reinforces things. And I think as well, maybe it is on people like us that have more of a refined eye for this stuff to call those things out because everyone is kind of calling this, you know, a great step forwards, blah, blah, blah. But actually, it is on people like I saw to have account, be like, hold on, it is reinforcing stereotypes in in this way. Um whilst I'm talking, I will just say, um, so I've only seen episode one, so I can't talk in depth about it like you guys can. Can I say what I did um what did occur to me when I was watching it? I was like, oh my god, the good old days. I miss that. I I actually, you know, like when you're like, no, but you know when you're like coming out and you're sort of um figuring it out yourself and you don't know if you're gay or you're bi and you don't want to say anything, and so you're sneaking off with a guy. Like, I literally would be with gay friends in a gay bar and sneak off with a guy, like because I just didn't want anyone to know. And at the time, probably, you know, that that was I I don't think I ever felt like you know depressed about it or anything like that. Um, but I think you look back and you think, oh, it was, you know, it's a it's a hard journey to come out. This made me think, it wasn't that like you were having fun too, like sneaking around and discovering something new about yourself and be like, oh, I like that. Oh, what? Oh, like I actually was like, oh, I miss being 19. Like, I don't know, like there was just an element of fun that I I'd forgotten that that whilst being hard coming out actually was quite fun and sexy.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Yeah, definitely. I remember being on a on a college trip to London when I was 17, and there was this girl that we did a lot of sneaking around, and finally we were staying in the same hotel. And I just remember that being so like exhilarating and yeah, this thing that felt like really naughty in a way. Um, because nobody knew. And yeah, I think you're right. It's that feeling of like anticipation and thrill.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

And I think just going back to what you were saying, Lewis, about the um the the the building of myths and and stereotypes and whatever i think the answer to that is we just need to hit see more experiences i mean this is the one thing i keep i'm always saying that bisexuality is so it's so varied it's so different lots of people's experience is different you not one experience is the same as the same as the rest is it you know what i mean so in order to bust those myths people have got to realise there are lots of different people who are bisexual and they they act in different ways uh for different reasons you know the the the thing that i specifically in talking about the the show itself now for a second i i watched it with an open mind i i did think that i i knew i i was only i only knew it was bisexual because somebody had written an article actually in um i forgot what it's called now by by community news had written a a thing saying there's quite a lot of bisexuality in this i would not have known had i not read that that there was any bisexuality in it at all because it is portrayed generally as being um a gay romance really let's face it you know they were on loose women the other day it's great the loose women were talking about it but all the way through they were talking about it they talked about it being gay um no mention of bisexuality any way shape or form so I was worried when I watched it um you know is it just gonna literally really skirt around the bisexuality and it does skirt around it and avoids mentioning the word but it doesn't in terms of the action so it it's clear that uh the Russian uh hockey player is bisexual and he doesn't make he doesn't hide that he doesn't hide that from the other guy in fact there's one scene if you remember Laura I don't know if it's I hope I'm not spoiling it for you I think it might have been it's in it's in the episode I just watched right where where he talks about his love for women uh but says he's got a a bit of a an itch for this guy who's got freckles and that's not going away you know so he actually he he literally he really liked you know he's his the his his love for um the Canadian uh hockey player is still there and you could see in the in the actor's face that the the the gay one that he was a bit worried there he was thinking actually he's really only interested in being with women not with me you know what I mean so but it wasn't said it wasn't it wasn't said but you could tell in the in the way they talked about in um so I think the bit that I thought you were referring to was in the fifth episode where they say he's um the Canadian um guy has realized that he is gay um Hollander Hollander is name Hollander isn't it he's he's sort of used that word for the first time um and then he asks um is it Ilya I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right um but he uh he says you're not gay and he says not fully and it's just one of those another like it obviously means that he's bi but it's one of those moments again where they seem to be just avoiding that word and that fear of it being an awkward thing or a dirty word in some way. And and and it later on which you haven't seen yet it also comes up with Hollander's parents as well and uh but it but it's clear in all the conversations that um the the understanding is that this guy likes both men and women but he's in love with Hollander and that's the way that's the way it is and I I think that's fine. I don't think you necessarily have to explicitly say in everything you do I'm bisexual whatever. What I think is missing for me it's not missing completely because you can tell the guy does have struggles the Russian guy has struggles but what's missing is for the the audience is that understanding that there are people who are bisexual who have struggles they have difficulties it it's a it's a challenge for them to deal with it. Whereas it seems to me like it's skirted over um for our enjoyment and that it's not really a big issue. And to be honest this is exactly the same thing's happening in our soaps at the moment in Coronation Street and East Enders there are bi characters who are clearly doing things but the what they're doing is not discussed. The issues of what they're doing and whether or not it's causing issues for themselves or others are not mentioned. You know so in that sense I think it's doing although I think it's great in many ways and it's trying to portray I suppose bisexuality as a normal thing which is what we where we want to be but with it's like saying gay is a normal thing which of course it always has been a normal thing but but without all that stress and tension for donkeys years that people have gone through which obviously still has an issue for people who are who who've gone through it homophobia and all the rest of it. Do you know what I mean? It's sort of we've never had any problems or we don't have any problems where it's that bi privilege thing again, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 48:48

I think a lot of um characters who particularly male characters I I don't know if this is something that either of you have have sort of noticed but I think that there is a trope with male characters. It's that sort of like anything that moves trope and it's that like party boy um very like freewheeling nonchalant um and it's almost like the bisexuality is a side effect of just being like a cool guy about town and not really caring and that kind of thing. Which you know I'm sure is the case for some people where that that personality does line up with bisexuality. But I feel like that's sort of the primary depiction that we see. And I think you're right it adds this like levity to it which is nice but also doesn't then dive into the deeper issues there. And it's very rare that we see those depictions or the depiction of somebody um struggling with their bisexuality or not being accepted for their bisexuality.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

Yeah it's just it just makes me think that you know in all the interviews that we've done over the last six years every single person we speak to uh I mean some people have been very very at home with their bisexuality but all of them have been through a journey and that's everybody from you know the somebody in their 80s who we spoke to way down to somebody who's 1920 you know they're all they're all dealing with it and it's an ongoing journey and that's the reality for bisexual people men and women and people you know trans people and whatever and but that's not being depicted and I think that's really really sad. And the fact that it doesn't even get referred to in any of the conversations and media is is quite scary to me. I don't you know I think we're we're we're really um yeah we we're really doing a disservice to a lot of people and bring you in in a second Lewis but just a couple of again some some comments I noticed from women some so there have been women online who I noticed have noticed the bisexuality. So somebody said the way Ilya casually mentions a guy and a girl in the same breath that's real bisexual representation I don't know whether it was a uh a whether it was a by a by woman or a straight woman but that's what she said um and um and then it said uh it's rare to see a bi man whose attraction to women isn't erase the moment he falls for a guy so um somebody there who obviously understands what we're talking about and then somebody else said um I love that heated rivalry lets Ilya be bi without making it a plot twist or a problem so that's taking it further and saying actually this is good that they're presenting it as a normal regular thing which I understand but I feel as though we need to at least hear people's stories along the way so what do you think Lewis do you think it's I mean you saw the first episode there wasn't a great deal of by representation of the first episode I don't think but what do you think to the fact that it's the misinterpretation or misrepresentation of it outside the show isn't it rather than within it it is but I think also it's kind of going back to what you said about we need more examples and we just don't have it.

SPEAKER_13 51:51

I actually just think it's probably worth saying um I know you guys are probably aware of the GLAD report and it looks at um TV characters and the LGBT representation of TV characters in general I think it is mainly US but obviously we we all watch a lot of US shows now but what they found and this was just at the back end of 2025 was that um almost half of all LGBTQ TV characters have been cancelled or aren't returning in 2026. So it's kind of you know it's kind of different things like you've got some characters have been written off some have been killed some shows were just here for a one season fit like I don't know if he rather getting season two or there's um what you call it like you know the the shows aren't coming back. So we are in a world now where we're actually getting less LGBT characters than we've had I don't know if that ties into the anti-woke thing that we were talking about before um but I just for for interest's sake um thought I'd have a little look at the GLAD report now. So um how many bisexual men do you think there were on TV shows in in 2024 to 2025 in America in America I'm gonna go very low five I know we're doing better than that so it's 27 oh okay um and for women it's saying that there were 70 I mean I really want to go through who all of these ones were but obviously a lot less than it was for um for gay and for for gay people and lesbian people um interestingly only 44 bisexual characters overall are coming back on renewed series and 38 are on cancelled series so I what I'm getting at is the overall picture is we might have issues with heated rivalry but it's probably the best we're gonna get for a while because they're getting rid of LGBT characters now and over half aren't coming back. Well sorry just under half aren't coming back.

SPEAKER_02 53:53

We have got we have of course got um Heartstuff that's coming back um for for the final run I think and that's British of course and that did mention bisexuality quite considerably but again um people who watch it know it's bisexual and they know the main character is bisexual and the actors bisexual as well which is fantastic. But again it was always portrayed and still is to an extent portrayed as a a sort of gay romance rather than acknowledging the bisexuality even though the the show itself doesn't steer away from the bisexuality at all. But you know as I mentioned on the soaps you know Coronation Street every other character is is gay or bi at the moment but they don't talk about being bi at all it's really really really strange. And we need to challenge them at about it at some point. Just on the bi mail reaction then online by the way we've got a few people um have talked about seeing bi people in a a drama like heater rivalry somebody said it's the first time I've seen a bi guy in a romance who isn't treated like a joke or a threat. Someone else says seeing a partner just accept a guy's bisexuality without suspicion that hit me hard. I've never had that I suppose that's referring to an extent to the gay guy who I think was a little bit nervous um uh Laura I I don't know you think but I think he was a bit nervous about about the other guy maybe yeah going off with women and that kind of thing. Yeah but but actually that that comment there that I've just read out um reflects how a lot of I I think I think a lot of buy men when they get with um a guy do spend a lot of time having to convince guys you know gay guys that actually they're going to commit to them so that's it's a similar kind of thing when it comes to um you know men and women as well. And then somebody else says bi men exist and we love seeing ourselves in stories that don't erase us the second we fall for a guy and we get so few bi male characters who stay by Ilya being bi the whole time felt like a gift.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

So there's some comments there um and um there's some more I think I'll find them in a second because we've had some people directly send some things into us um on uh on bisexual brunch um but but yeah I mean what do you think just just to just away from the bisexuality for a second what do you think to the story I mean I think the sex is fantastic what do you think about the storylines I mean some of it some of it feels a little bit plastic in places you not think Laura yes but I'm gonna defend a good old romance here because I love a romance book and I do think that yes a lot of them fall into the same tropes and the same um you know they might be a bit surface level but I think sometimes that's just what you need like sometimes I don't need a really deep thought provoking piece of TV or book I can just enjoy a romance and I can enjoy somebody you know declaring their love for someone or being protective and um I feel like it just scratches that itch of like yeah just something that just feels nice to watch it's just quite heartwarming and you're invested in the characters even if the plot is a little bit surface. Well they certainly certainly this they certainly um um scratch more than an itch didn't they there's a book um that I read recently which is called In Love with Love um and it's a collection of essays about romance novels and basically says everything that I just said a lot more eloquently about sort of that that in that love of romance and of it not needing to necessarily be something that's new or different and the reason why we like romance and I really recommend that to anybody who is listening.

SPEAKER_13 57:35

Fantastic fantastic on the on the actual sex side of it for a second on the male sex side of it um Lewis um I thought the first episode was a lot of um sex in it and I thought actually that it it was going even further than I've seen stuff for a long time I mean I think they they certainly are breaking some boundaries with some of the stuff that they that they uh that they covered do you not think I thought it was quite quite risque I mean probably not risque now but it felt risque in a in a sense that they were it felt I suppose you can watch sex scenes and they don't feel real do they but these felt real do you not think um I don't really know I mean I've only seen the first episode I mean I didn't see any erect penises I mean that'd feel pretty real um so I still I don't know I feel like um I I feel like there's sex scenes in everything now maybe I'm just watching a lot of like stuff for over 18 but I just feel like there's always sex scenes now I don't know that was not my interpretation I was like I I mean but the hardest thing for me is I was trying to watch this whilst there were kids in the house and I had it on um my iPad and I had my um air pods in so I was listening to it but then they kept having sex and I had to keep like putting the iPad down and I was like you know what this is just not I can't try and watch this while the kids are around can I?

SPEAKER_01 58:53

I really liked from a sex educator perspective I really liked that the particularly in the first episode and when they were kind of getting comfortable with each other um the consent was really nice like there was a lot of in and I really appreciated that I always notice when there's good consent going on in sex scenes.

SPEAKER_02 59:09

Ilya kept Ilya kept asking if he if he was okay if he was yeah I thought that was really nice.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

And I read online that they did actually work with an intimacy coordinator which is always a relief as well because I feel like there's been certain things in the press recently where certain celebrities have sort of pushed back on intimacy coordinators and this idea that they're not needed if you feel comfortable with the other actor. But I think yeah they should always be be used particularly when there's really really intimate um sex scenes like in this show.

SPEAKER_02 59:39

But yeah I I thought that the sex was was good um and it seemed it at least seemed like a positive healthy representation yeah absolutely absolutely I just thought some of the conversations they were having when they were having sex if you know I mean were were more realistic than you normally see you you only just see people getting on and that and the end and that's it and you know but I felt as though you know let's face it sex isn't necessarily um the easiest thing in the world sometimes for you know it's not always not always as as as plain sailing as people think is it and some of that at least came out I thought which was good so we'll see what happens for uh they're gonna have another second series apparently um and we'll see what happens there um but I just think that I think we can agree that yeah it's good to have the representation um but we need to have more reality don't we in the sense of real representation of what bi people go through on a regular basis you know what I mean it's uh so we we seem to have gone to this I say we as I said at the beginning we seem to have gone to this point that oh it's all okay now everyone could be bisexual enjoy themselves you could go out go down the street now and have a you know have a thing with every person you meet on an you know it's perfect that's perfect it's a perfect world but it's not a perfect world is it that doesn't happen it doesn't happen in reality you know everyone's struggling with their identity in different ways you know as a bisexual person I tend to encounter either people that are incredibly biphobic and very much down the route of like bisexuality isn't a thing it's a disease it doesn't exist or people who are like wait is biphobia even a thing anymore I thought everyone was bisexual and then there's about one percent of people who are like bisexuality exists and there's still you know um issues and and um barriers surrounding getting support and being able to live um as a biperson so right like we are just caught in between two extremes right and it's it's so odd it is just so it's so bizarre to me like that more people aren't chill or just understand like why does it have to be these two extremes yeah there's people who don't think it's a big deal and then there's people who will you know call you every name under the sun and it just feels yeah like you're right like we're very much stuck between a rock and a hard place. Absolutely well before we go on to our next um bit which is going to be to look we're gonna do our ask of special questions let's just have a look at a uh a bit of fan mail that came in um we're getting fan mail all the time which is great um and I I forget to put it all together sometimes and and I think I could read plenty more but there's one here I've found now um this is David in San Francisco who says thanks you thank you guys for all you do you have been instrumental in my ability to to characterize my own experience something I have struggled to do for nearly 50 years I so appreciate that you get that people who lived without a good way to understand themselves live with extreme difficulty. I have newfound freedom as a result of your work there you go what does how does that make you feel Louis really touching you know it's it's always interesting I mean I always find it odd that like people listen and read to the things that I do even though obviously you know that that's what people are doing and then to feel like actually it's it's they've not just listened to it's actually helped them it's it's you know the whole point of doing it right absolutely it's amazing and the other bit of news we've got actually which I did send to Lewis over Christmas and I've completely forgotten about it is the fact that the stats came out for our um spread across the world and we're one of the most uh listened to podcasts in terms of uh numbers of countries we're we're we're listened to in 170 out of 195 countries globally so that's 87% of the world hears us at some point obviously audiences in some places are quite tiny or whatever but what's different about us compared to other podcasts is other podcasts will have huge huge audiences in certain places but they're only often in certain territories. So it might be all United States or all English speaking countries UK Australia Canada whatever uh whereas we spread across all different languages so even though there's probably loads of people who can't actually understand what the hell we're talking about but they understand the word bisexual or whatever they're doing their best to try and listen to us and find out what we're talking about. So I think that for me that is absolutely amazing that we're in we we get to 87% of the world's population. So uh thank you world good stuff and we'd like to hear by the way uh we've said this before actually I'd like to hear from we'd like to hear from more people from different places. So I think we've had people from Mexico on in the past uh we've had people from other parts of South America Brazil uh we had Australia it would be lovely to hear from people in different parts of the world so if you're a bisexual brunch listener please get in touch with us even if you don't want to talk to us on air tell us a bit about your experiences we'd love to represent you on the show you're listening to the Bisexual brunch podcast if you've not heard enough about heated rivalry we're actually going to be talking about it again a little bit later on and we talked to Tom Ward Thomas about TV film books and all the other things that are are out there at the moment he's going to be giving us his verdict on heated rivalry we're also out in the streets of Camden uh in London with uh Danielle who's uh Daniel Manning who's been out and about to talk to people about what they feel about heated rivalry but also testing the water to find out if people did actually catch that the series is about um a bisexual character. Has that got through to people we'll be finding out a little bit later on uh we've also got our bisexual journey stories coming up uh we've got Nikki Wake in the centre of Manchester who's in her 50s and has recently uh basically having a wild time in her 50s uh with lots of ethical non monogamy she's gonna be telling us her bisexual journey story and we've got Chris in Amsterdam who we mentioned uh earlier on um who basically um is a bisexual guy who's been struggling with his bisexuality uh and mental health issues and and basically um has had several years addicted to cannabis uh so we'll be hearing about his struggles a little bit later on and how he's got through them um but before all of that of course uh we've got our bisexual sorry but before all that of course we've got ask a bisexual so let's take a deep dive into this time's questions and now it's time to ask a bisexual okay then so this is our first we've got two bisexual ask a bisexual questions this time this is the first one uh my name's Belinda I'm 59 and I live in Berwick upon Tweed I only came out as bisexual last year after 35 years in a straight marriage my ex-husband and I are still on good terms he's been wonderfully accepting and most of my friends and family have taken the news far better than I ever dared hope. Recently something happened that I never imagined at this stage of my life would. I met a young woman she's 23 and we've started seeing each other she's the first woman I've ever been intimate with and the whole experience has been exciting emotional and honestly a bit overwhelming in the best way. But here's where where I'm struggling I'm terrified to tell people about her not because she's a woman I've made peace with all that but because of the age difference. I have two grown up kids who are only a little older than she is and I'm worried people will judge me and think I'm being irresponsible or assume she's with me for the wrong reasons. She meanwhile is completely relaxed. Her friends know about me and apparently don't bat an eyelid uh she keeps telling me we should be just honest about ourselves and let people think what they like how do I get past this fear of judgment and is it unfair of me to keep our relationship quiet when she's so open about it?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:48

Belinda in Beric, I think we should go to you for this one uh Laura first of all so yeah I think my first response to this is that like age gap relationships are a really big um topic at the moment and if I'm being really blunt people probably will have their thoughts and opinions on it and I don't think that you can if you do decide to go public with this news I don't think you can expect that everybody is going to necessarily be um on board as your partner's friends have been because I think that there is um often some hesitancy there. I think where I would want you to be thinking is along the lines of okay um all of the concerns that people might have about an age gap relationship, are they actually concerns that you also share? So are you thinking about your relationship from a power imbalance imbalance point of view are you actually able to say oh well myself and my partner we both have the same agency we're both able to speak up for ourselves there's no imbalance of power there that is going to cause a problem down the line. And if you both feel and if you've had those conversations with your partner if you both feel that you are in a relationship of equals um I think that makes it easier to then tell people and to know even if people will have an opinion about it, which some people inevitably will you know inside you know yourself you and your partner both know um that you know what they might be thinking isn't isn't true and that you can confidently say that you have a relationship of equals but it's really hard. Like you're always going to worry about the judgment of other people but I think having that confidence within yourself is is really important and can help with that. And I think in terms of keeping the relationship quiet again I think that that needs to be a conversation that you have with your partner because you have a right to be as open about your relationship as you want to be um but it's just whether or not that is going to cause an issue. If your partner doesn't want to be in a relationship that is kept secret that could cause an issue but it might be that they are absolutely fine with it. So I think it's all about that communication and about saying you know if we were to keep this to ourselves a little bit longer or even permanently how would that affect our relationship and and how would you feel about that? And again making sure that you really have that ability for both of you to speak really honestly but I think it's all about communication in in this in this sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:20

You're right that the it's topical and and it's got it's crazy really because we become I feel as we've gone backwards on this you know we we become we're very accepting I know there's been lots of scandals and things like that but when we we're talking there about um illegal things you know this isn't if somebody who's uh is an adult having a sexual relationship is not illegal and and you know people are in the public eye are getting I mean um Luke Pollard the uh Labour MP who's got a partner who's about 20 years younger than him he's getting hassled constantly online uh you've got uh Russell T. Davis has just started dating a guy who's about 30 years younger than him uh he's getting loads of um hassle online and and of course Stephen Fryer regularly gets it as well because his partner's about 30 years younger in than him or something.

SPEAKER_13 1:11:07

So we we do have a problem don't we we seem to have an issue with age gap relationships and sometimes I think to myself well some of these people who complain about it wouldn't be happy unless we to put the put the age of consent up to 35 or something you know what I mean so what's your feeling on it Lewis uh very similar to Laura I think um I think first of all sometimes like gender flip it like look at all of the um flack that that Leonardo DiCaprio gets and that whole thing of like oh well he only dates people under the age of 25 um and that I think that I don't know when it's to women what the kind of um perspective or like the stigma is but obviously if it were an older man dating a younger women woman like there is a lot of um there's a lot written about that already. So sort of to to Laura's point I I just kind of think um you are gonna take some flack for it like that that's just me being realistic with you um so to that point sort of in the same way I probably tell people about coming out where I'm like don't come out until you're ready like don't feel forced to come out or don't let someone force you out the closet because at the end of the day um you need to be comfortable and ready to defend yourself and sometimes you're not ready for that so in that sense I wouldn't feel sort of rushed out if you're not ready and you're writing in about this you're probably not ready to to go public with with the relationship um and then just echoing everything that's already been said about just making sure that everyone has agency in the relationship and everyone feels that they can um speak their mind and be freaks I think as you write you know it's one of those things where I think I I mean maybe I'm becoming more a liberal in my old age but I think that it's one of those things where I probably would have been more on um love is love and age is just a number, which I still am mainly but I think maybe now I, you know, just as more and more kind of um people talk about some of the power imbalances in age gap relationships I am just not that I'm saying that this person's doing anything wrong at all. I'm just saying I'm more aware of some of the the troubles that can come up in age gap relationships. That's not to say they can't work because they've worked for hundreds of years and I'm sure that this relationship will work out. But I think it it's very interesting this one coming in because I'm realizing as I'm talking through it that probably I've shifted a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:47

I think when I talk to young people I teach young people about consent and one of the things that I talk about and we're talking about teenagers here so we're asking them to be very very wary of age gap relationships because they are oftentimes under the age of 18. But one of the things that I say when I talk about age gap relationships more generally is that it's not necessarily that this is definitively going to be an unhealthy relationship. It's that I just think there's more possibility for something to go wrong. Because like you say people can be in very loving, very healthy relationships if there is that gap. And it goes for anything it goes for like wage gap relationships where one person earns a lot more than the other. It goes for relationships where I had a friend that was dating her landlord and there's so many, it's just there's more there's slightly more risk there. And I think you just have to be a little bit more cautious when you are in those relationships that there isn't that imbalance of power because there can be more of a natural shift. Going back to what you said about Leonardo DiCaprio, it's my opinion on this is that my alarm bells tend to ring a lot more when somebody has a pattern of seeking out people of a younger age and that to me I start to ask the question of okay is this purely a shallow thing is it an aesthetic thing or is it actually because you are seeking to wield more power in that relationship? So again I think if you are an older person and you find yourself with a younger person, it's worth that worth asking yourself those same questions. Why am I in this relationship? What am I gaining from is it just that I've formed a connection with another human being and it just so happened that they were younger than me or is it that actually their age is playing into specifically why I want this relationship to happen or um it into the dynamic of the relationship in maybe an unhealthy way. But yeah I think it's just those situations where there's just potentially more risk. So you have to do a bit more risk management.

SPEAKER_13 1:15:40

And I don't I I feel like neither of us want to be a Debbie Downer on your relationship. We're very happy you found someone I would say probably you have you've probably been through quite a lot from going to a husband to discovering your sexuality to now meeting someone to now there being this factor of the age in it like you there's probably just a lot going on. So I just think take take some time and you know don't feel rushed out because this is the thing you know it causes debate on this show. So of course there are going to be people in your life that it will cause a debate and if you're not ready to have those discussions yet if you haven't had those discussions amongst each other yet like maybe just take some time and don't feel rushed.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:18

And there's also that thing about when people come out you go through they talk about like a second queer puberty um you know matter what age you come out at you're suddenly going through adolescence again in some way and that feeling of discovering your identity and everything feeling really new and exciting entering into new relationships there's all of that as well so I I in a way I understand how you may have things in common in that sense if you're both discovering your emerging identities. So I I understand it from that point of view. But yeah I think it's just a case of you know enjoy your relationship but make sure that you are communicating and that everybody is feeling like they have a voice.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:57

Yeah and also there's a couple other things as well we we did a discussion in the last episode uh with uh a guy I've done research into how bi men are in the bedrooms to the sex lives and whatever and he talked about he talked quite a lot about the attraction of older men and younger men. And we can't get away from the fact that there are natural attractions you know older people older people will find they're never going to stop finding younger people to an extent I don't mean young young people but I mean people who are maybe 20 years younger than them whatever it may be say they're 40 and 20s they're going to still find people of that age attractive and equally which people never talk about but it's true there are people in their 20s who do fancy people who are much older you know we we we need to accept that those things are there.

SPEAKER_13 1:17:47

They do have they that is part of human human nature you know what I mean it's not you you don't live in a little a little um age bubble all the time do you know what I mean I mean there are some people online you talk you hear people talking about age gap relationships online and you think to yourself that there's certain people they'll they'll attack age gap relationships and and it'll be situations where some where there's like eight years between two people and they'll see that as horrible oh my god you're a you're a child you're a child snatcher you know you you've you've the the person's 19 and you're 20 27 or something and you've it's like what do you know what I mean I just I I get I get what you're both saying about the the the the the dynamics in terms of power structures and all the rest of it but I think I think it's I think what you're talking about there is attraction right you're talking about attraction and we're sort of talking at it more of like the dynamics once you're in a relationship because here's the thing when I was younger when I was like in my early 20s I was really only interested in people the same age I never even thought of older people whereas now I'm like why didn't I hook up with more older guys like but I I I clearly wasn't just that just wasn't a thing at the time um and so maybe you know sort of in a fetish way like it could be like a yeah I find them attractive but I think going from that was a really hot night or you know a really hot series of nights to okay but how do we actually make this work with you know different generations of friends and perspectives and probably wage differences like it's just a little bit more messy and complicated absolutely but it cannot work.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:23

But for people who are objecting to these things where you people you hear people on in forums and see people chatting being very moralistic about it that their attitude their thing is not they're not most of these people aren't measuring it by how this person's going to get on with them and whether they've got things in common and all the rest of it. They're purely looking at it from a sexual point of view thinking oh my god how can that 59 year old woman go out with a 23 year old one that's disgusting. That's what they're thinking about. And I just think it's wrong and I don't think we should give them the power of their morality police business by by not understanding that actually older young older and younger people can be attracted to each other.

SPEAKER_13 1:20:02

I mean I I'm like you Liz when I was in my 20s I never fancied anybody over about 23 24 I could disgusting but now I I think I probably would have done you know what I mean well do do you think I wonder if there's something about being in in your 20 like you were just joking about the age of consent being raised I don't think that people really worry about it the older people get like for example Sarah Paulson's um girlfriend is is quite a bit older I think um yeah 30 year gap or something and I don't think anyone questions that so I wonder if it is just the society has more of a questioning sort of when someone is in the earlier 20s whereas I think as they get to more later 20s early 30s I think that those age gaps don't become such an issue of content for from the outside world maybe I don't know so maybe there is just a you know well I think for me there is just more of awareness at 23 years old I could have easily been taken in by someone that had the upper hand of just knowing more about life than me. And that's not obviously I'm not suggesting for a second that's what's happening here. But I think that that I I don't know I think that my as I say I think talking about this I've realized how much my position has changed from age is just a number doesn't matter all that kind of stuff. Again not saying it can't work I'm just saying there are a lot of factors and that's why society has questions about it which is I guess why we've got the spectrum forward.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:38

They say you get more right wing as you get older Lewis well maybe that's what's happening.

SPEAKER_13 1:21:42

The other thing on this question though for for the uh for the lady who's who's who's been in touch is that she mentioned that her partner is saying look we should just go for it and and we're happy with ourselves and ignore what everyone else thinks and there is something to be said for that as well if you're if you're close to somebody and you're with somebody and you both feel very comfortable with each other and you're going to support each other then no it doesn't matter what other people think does it at the end of the day again a lot easier for a 20 year old to say that who you know their friends are their family everyone's on a vibe people are you know more open-minded whereas a 50 something year old has got to explain that to people who are going to be more rigid in their beliefs and more just so it's gonna be easier for the 20 year old to talk about that relationship than the person in their 50s because the people around them are going to judge them more. She's just left her husband um so to now be like not only I'm dating a woman I mean you've got all the bisexual biphobic stuff you're gonna have to deal with as a as a base thing anyway to then say that there's an age gap and all of the stigma around that it's it's it's it's gonna be easier for the 20 year old to say I just don't think I I personally if if they're happy uh and other people aren't happy and they're happy themselves then it that's the most important thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:00

And if the other people don't come round then that's their problem. That's my view on it.

SPEAKER_13 1:23:04

Well that's ultimately the end of this kind of like coming out is you reach a point where it's like if people can't accept this about me they can get the hell out. And I think that this woman now, you know she she's clearly questioning because she is written in um but I, you know, I wish you all the best and I hope that you will reach a point where you say I know this relationship is right. I know we love each other. I know we're making it work and if people can't accept this then I I really couldn't care less. But just don't rush yourself to get there. Get there when it feels natural.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:38

Yeah if you if you tell people but the only thing that's holding you back is the fear of people's reactions. If you're hoping for that to be a long-term relationship people are going to react the same way at any point. So I would say that if that's the only thing holding you back, then you should go for it if you feel comfortable and you know try to to hope that the people that know you and love you um will see that you are happy um and will be happy for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:03

We'll get over it over time won't we'll be somebody else they're going to talk about. But End up thank you very much indeed for getting in touch with us do if you can please keep in touch with us and let us know how you get on because it'd be really interesting to know how how you progress.

SPEAKER_16 1:24:15

Ready to ask a question of your own send an email now to info at maidenmanchester.tv and in the subject line say for the attention of bisexual brunch and you might get featured on a future show.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:29

Don't be shy they won't bite you're listening to the Bisexual brunch podcast so uh another bisexual uh brunch journey story and we're joined by Chris uh who's in the Netherlands just outside Amsterdam Chris thanks for joining us and um you've been in touch with me a little while ago and we've chatted a few times on uh email and whatever and um as we always say I always say in these interviews that every um bisexual journey story is different and the thing that struck me about yours was that it was quite different and you had something different to say in terms of what the issue I suppose of your bisexuality what effect it had had on you um so just outline to us a little bit about about that in terms of how you as a I think you're 34 34 year old how you feel at the moment we'll we'll look back and all the rest of it in a bit but how you feel at the moment about your identity about being bisexual.

SPEAKER_15 1:25:35

Yeah that's fine uh so I'm Chris uh thanks for having me Ash uh it's an honour to be on really uh so thanks again yeah I I I think I've always known that I was uh uh a different in my sexuality uh not quite sure that it was uh uh bisexual but um because of my upbringing I've I've really struggled with it uh growing up and suppressed well most of it for a for a really long time until I was uh in my mid-twenties I think uh thereabouts and um the reason I reached out to Bisexual Brunch is because um I had Lewis uh a long time ago talk about uh addiction and specifically uh cannabis addiction and bisexuality and um I'm a uh a cannabis or marijuana or weed uh whatever you want to call it um addict now for about nine ten years um and it's very much related to my struggle with uh with bisexuality and uh depression and and and all of that in a nutshell I think you grew up in largely I know part of your we talked before part of your life you'd grown up uh in the UK but you grew up partly in in in um in Holland which we always get the impression of Holland as being a pretty sort of liberal country and all the rest of it but does it I mean are are we rot are we wrong there? Was it is it still quite difficult for people to be open about stuff when they're quite young um I suppose it is it is quite liberal I wouldn't say it's any more liberal maybe it maybe a a a tiny bit more than than the UK um it's hard to measure that that sort of thing but um I suppose there is quite a big um like queer community or however you want to call it um it's just I've never really been in touch with it that much it's it's I don't really know many people uh that are part of that community which has made it a bit hard for me to uh to to come out as it were and it's more difficult isn't it in a way for bisexual people in the sense that because of your um your desires as it were both um in terms of being attracted to men and women you're sometimes pulled one way or the other and you might be pulled way of you know dating what dating girls or whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:54

And you might not not necessarily come across a a gay community or whatever. You know some of us Some of us do. I mean, I I was heavily involved in the gay community very young, very quite a young age, in my late teens, early twenties. So I engaged with people and that wasn't an issue. But I know there's lots of people who buy who've never ever set foot in a gay bar or a gay pub or anything like that. So I suppose so you want to get into that sort of arena your own sort of setting, you know, of your friends and everybody is no nobody's nobody's actually LGBT or whatever, then you're not necessarily going to go out of your way to do it, are you?

SPEAKER_15 1:28:29

Not really, no. And uh no, I mean I have I've funnily enough, I've been in a gay bar once in my life, but that was when I was um like 16 or something, um with with a friend who was uh who'd come out at the time. So I've I've been in one once, but that's the only time I've I've ever been, and that that was when I was very much in uh in denial about uh anything regarding me not being anything other than straight. So yeah, I've I mean uh because uh because uh of the the path I've I've followed as an uh as a cannabis uh weed addict, um I have come in uh I've crossed paths with um people of the the the queer community through um Narcotics Anonymous or marijuana anonymous, you you probably know the uh Alcoholics Anonymous, that's the the the the best known one, but there are there are all types of groups. Um so I've come into contact with people through there, which has been uh uh well really welcoming and uh I kind of feel at home, which is nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:31

So why do you think your cannabis addiction, marijuana addiction, is related to your sexuality? What or your sexuality issues and things? What why do you think there's there's a connection there? Because obviously a lot of people take marijuana and cannabis and lots of different reasons for it, you know. So why do you think there's a link there?

SPEAKER_15 1:29:54

Yeah, it's a good question. Um, and I'm not really sure how to answer it. Um so I'll I'll I'll try my best. But um so, like I said, about nine or ten years ago, um I started using cannabis uh more or less daily. Well, not it it wasn't daily in the beginning, but um because I suffered from uh depression, so I was off work, I was at home and just feeling um like absolute dog shit, just worthless and well, I mean depression, I mean you can yeah, you can kind of fill that in for yourself, but um and I was on antidepressants, I was having therapy, I was trying all sorts of different things to uh pull myself out of the gutter, and nothing was really working, so I was I was kind of on a journey to you know, like well what's my problem, why do I feel uh this rubbish? Why what what can I do? And um uh online I found something about treatment with with cannabis, and I thought, yeah, I could try that, maybe it'll help, and well, yeah, it kind of did. Um it it did kind of lift me out of the depression while while I was smoking it. And um so I started to self-medicate, and before I knew it, it was more or less uh daily, and then it was a daily thing, and then it was more and more, and um and um over the years I've had I've had different types of uh therapy and uh I've um had you never had you never smoked cannabis at all before then four or eight years ago?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:32

You never been into into it at all at when you're younger like that.

SPEAKER_15 1:31:36

Yeah, I did. I mean when I was I think I tried it for the I mean I'm in Holland, so it's it's readily available. I mean you can pretty much get it everywhere, and it's not you know, you you won't get arrested on the street for for smoking it or whatever. So I tried it, you know, like when I was a teenager and I never really liked it that much. I I I preferred to drink and um just do stupid things. Um so I never really you know I I must have smoked it for the last time when I was like 16 or 17 and then just never never really uh paid any attention until I was about 23, uh 24, 25 when I was quite down. Um and that's when I started using it again. And um I suppose the correlation between um the weed addiction and the bisexuality is um I mean I I I kind of knew at a young age when I was probably I don't know, when you were a teenager, when I was probably about eleven or twelve, like a pre-teen, um that my sexuality was different and I've really tried to push it all away and suppress it and um pretend like it wasn't there because I was raised well my my dad's quite homophobic. He's he was then very much so and he still is uh right now um unfortunately. It's getting better, I think. Um but yeah we'll we'll we'll get on to my dad in a bit, I think. Um so there was there was a lot of things I was trying to suppress and and uh and push away and um uh during my therapeutic journey I uh I kind of uh realized that well yeah my my sexuality or the suppression of that is is a huge part of my uh my my depression or the way I was uh feeling or the yeah, the feelings I had towards myself, the self-hatred and self-loathing and disgust and it yeah, that that became clear in in probably my late twenties, so about seven, six, seven, eight years ago.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:35

Are you happy?

SPEAKER_15 1:33:38

Now um happier than I was, happier than I've been. Um I mean depression is a bitch, it was uh it's not nice, and I mean I'm not out of the out of the woods yet. Um I've been depressed three times now, uh like three uh episodes of depression. The last one was I probably came out of it last year, uh, when I um started a new um started a a new kind of therapy, uh dual diagnosis of depression and for addiction, which is was really helpful uh for me. My my my therapist was uh was was great. She just understood me and and and really could help me. And um so yeah, am I happy now? Yeah, I would say so, yeah. Yeah. I mean I've I've been clean for a while now. Um I just passed 10 months uh sobriety, which is I mean, that's the longest I've ever been clean was like two or three weeks when when I've been on holiday or whatever and it was hard to get, or so yeah. Yeah, I'm really turning over a new leaf, and but it's it's also because I've I've um sort of seen eye to eye with my uh sexuality and and I'm not hiding it anymore. Well, I mean I am hiding it. I mean it's not like uh I'm stood on the roof shouting it to everyone, but speaking of sexual brunch, of course.

SPEAKER_14 1:35:14

Well, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_15 1:35:18

Just don't publish my picture and I I think I'll be alright. But no, I I I I just wanted to say, I mean, that the the people uh closest to me, dearest to me, um they know about it. Um like my best friends, obviously my uh my my girlfriend, we've been together for 17 years, I think now. Um so yeah, she knows my best friend, you know. I've I've told some people, and uh it's it's yeah, it was a good decision to do it, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:46

Fantastic. Well, we'll talk about that in a moment, but just while we're on the therapy side of things, when you've had the therapy over time, different therapists and whatever, um presumably you've talked a bit about your sexuality and being bisexual and whatever. And I'm just wondering whether because I get mixed um messages from people when they talk about therapy as to whether anybody actually acknowledges or understands what you're talking about when you talk about bisexuality. What was your experience there? Did you find the therapist understood you in that sense?

SPEAKER_15 1:36:19

That's a great question, and um it's something I wanted to bring up as well because I think it is something that that we need to talk about more just as as uh just the whole population, because uh no, I don't think it is acknowledged or recognized as as well as it should be. Um like I said, my my previous therapist have just just finished therapy at the end of last year, and um yeah, I feel like a new a new me, as it were. She was kind of the first one to really uh dig deeper into it. And I've I've seen, I mean, I've I don't know, like six, seven different therapists over the years, and I have mentioned it, but it's never really been a a focus point or which is it's quite shocking actually. Um it does make me really sad actually because I think well, I mean I find eventually I got there and I was able to uh to work through the rubble and and you know, but I think for a lot of people it is a really, really difficult thing um to talk about that doesn't get acknowledged.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:18

What tends to happen um is that people tend to focus on being gay. They they they would what most people I've spoken to who've been to see a therapist, certainly in the in the UK, talk about the therapist you know pushing them to the whole thing of coming out as gay and all the rest of it, as though and the but the bisexual thing just doesn't seem to be understood. It's sort of it's just side, you know, it's pushed aside because of course there are people out there who are who start the world thinking they're bisexual or saying they're bisexual, and they aren't. That does have that does happen. But obviously there are plenty of us that are bisexual, you know. I think it's an issue that just isn't isn't tackled, and and obviously, you know, um so many people who are bi spend much of their life either hidden and denying it, um you know, not being able to be themselves, and then suddenly often people come out in the 40s and 50s, you know, like they've massively, you know, a big thing of a coming out exercise, and then suddenly they're like back to feeling they're about 16 again, you know what I mean? So it's all a bit and that causes them problems, you know what I mean? So that's uh crazy, really.

SPEAKER_15 1:38:27

Yeah, definitely definitely. Um, I mean for me it was I was never really pushed in, and no one ever really said, no, you're probably gay or you're probably straight or anything like that. It was it was acknowledged, but never really I don't think any of the therapists really recognised how big of a um sort of mental mental barrier it was for for me in my how how how big a part of my depression it was. Um so luckily um you know I wasn't told like oh yeah, you're you're this thing or that thing, or that never happened with me, but yeah. Again, everyone's story is different. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:03

But obviously it's going around in your mind. So let's talk about that then. So you're you you recognised at quite a young age that you were different and you felt as though you were presumably attracted to men and women in some way, shape, or form. You probably couldn't work it out in your head. Um, presumably you had no one to talk to or nobody to say anything to, and but you obviously all around you were people doing things, you know, dating girls, you know, there may have been some gay people you knew of or whatever, but maybe you never had any contact with. Just tell us a little bit about that and how as you grew, um, how that I suppose people would say confusion is not confusion because you you're bisexual, but obviously nobody talks about it. So you don't know that. You know you don't know that whether you're confused or not. You know, tell us a bit about how it how you felt about those that sort of attraction to to to men to men and women and how it manifested.

SPEAKER_15 1:40:00

Yeah, I mean, um, like I said, when I was about 11, 10, 11, 12, I I don't really know. Maybe it was even younger, I don't know. I mean, I've always been attracted to to women and um I've always known that about myself. I mean, when I was like eight or something, I had like my first girlfriend. Um I mean, girlfriend, you know what I mean, like as you do when you're that age. Um but I think I mean I'd I had a childhood friend uh here in the Netherlands when I was well from like when I was eight until I don't know. But anyway, um and I was I I did f feel some kind of attraction to him, and I'm I it's it's a bit hazy because it was a long time ago, and uh probably because the weed has has done things to my mind as well, my uh my memory, so it's a bit a bit hazy, uh pardon the pun. Um but I remember like being 10, 11 and and playing with my friend and feeling some kind of uh attraction to him. I and I think it was probably like the the the preteen hormones of um uh definitely like feeling a kind of sexual thing, as I'd all also felt for for for girls at the time or or you know li women in films or whatever on on the tele. Um so I knew that there was a a a sexual attraction, but there was uh one lad who who I say I I I I like to knock about with back then and um I think there were some kind of romantic feelings um which I I I bring up that that that lad because um that was like the first and only time that really happened the romantic feelings for for someone of the same sex and I don't know I I I I often think about it as is it's is it because um because I just have no like romantic attraction to uh to to men? Or is it because I've because I was kind of like programmed or brainwashed or whatever you want to call it to uh to think that well be being gay or gay feelings or that it's just uh well wrong or um so I don't know if it's because I've suppressed it. I mean my dad was quite quite homophobic growing up, like I said, and um I d I do remember him saying like, you know, people who are gay are the same as people who are uh pedophiles, you know, they should be castrated and d things like that. And yeah, it's it's it's it's painful to um hear someone so especially if it's your dad, because uh well it's like your uh well like the the the the main uh male role model in your in your life and it's like well yeah but that's kind of what I am as well so does that make me a a pedophile or uh and that that that was quite hard to hear and it still is now thinking back to it. I mean I've had a lot of therapy also regarding that that subject and um so I've kind of moved past it and and obviously I know my my dad's just the the way he thinks is quite skewed and well quite it's just just it's just pure ROM.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:17

Listening to Bisexual Brunch, you've probably um heard us talk quite a bit about the fact that there are people of varying degrees of bisexuality and people people's bisexuality is very different, and there's some people who are very emotionally attached to one gender over another, more sexually attracted to one gender than over the other, people who are 50-50, people who are 70, you know, it it's sort of it's a it's a real mixture of people uh different personalities, and and I feel, you know, if I'm being honest, I probably feel more um emotionally attracted to uh to men, uh, but I'm 50-50 when it comes to uh men and women when it comes to sexual attraction. So we're all we're all different, but I think a lot of that is tends to be um to do with society really and with the way you're you know where you grew up, the people you mix with, it's all to do with what's out there, and that's probably part as you say, it's probably part of the way you feel because the because of your background and the issues what you you had at home. But now you're in a relationship with a a woman, you've been in a relationship with a woman for 17 years, and you you've managed to talk to her about that and be open about your bisexuality. Tell us a bit about that. You uh w how did you meet and you know how have you how have you navigated that whole thing about being bisexual? Did you tell her at the beginning, or has it been a gradual thing?

SPEAKER_15 1:44:40

Yeah, all right. Um, so well, we we kind of grew up together because we when when I moved here, we went to the same school, and she wasn't she wasn't in my class, but a a year above me, and we kind of played together as kids, and um so we've known each other a long a long while, and then uh fast forward a few years, uh not really interested in each other, you know. We both did our different things, and then we kind of uh crossed paths again, and um and now well now it's 17 years later, and um I think w when did I when I well yeah, like I said, uh when I was like early 20s, mid-20s, I first uh was depressed and you know, big uh sort of soul searching, big um mental journey that I went on. And when I was like like mid mid-20s, late twenties, I realised, yeah, I I think I am bisexual, at least I didn't realise, I just thought like, yeah, I think this is more this is a real real thing. Um and I think even from then when I sort of made well I I wanted to say when I've made peace with it, I never really made peace with it. I don't think I really have made peace with it yet. Not quite. Um it's from from kind of half figuring it out myself, uh it still took me like two or three years to to even build up the courage to be able to tell her, which which felt horrible because it felt like I was keeping this big secret or well not even a secret, just a big lie, really, that I'd been lying to myself, lying to her, all our relationship, and that I was actually something that um well that I wasn't or I wasn't something that I was. I don't you know what I mean. Well, I don't even know what I mean. So um anyway, so um I know what you mean. Thank God. So um I was probably about twenty and I might be a year or a year off or something, but probably about twenty-eight when I built up built up the courage to to tell her and I remember it was one evening and I'd been putting it off for well for ages, for like weeks, months, I don't I don't even know. And I'd I remember I was just in tears and I I I said to her, look, I I think um I think I'm not 100% straight. I I couldn't even say the word really. I had to sort of sort of manoeuvre around it and I I said, yeah, I think uh, you know, I I do have certain feelings for uh for men as well. I I I don't think I am 100% straight. I think I might be bisexual, but I don't really know, and I think it's something that I've um ignored and you know, actively and were also um sort of subconsciously um pushed away and and yeah, just ri really ignored and and uh the reason I was scared to tell her because of the way I'd been been brought up and conditioned, I just thought, well, yeah, she's gonna leave me or she's gonna think I'm weird or gross or just everything was going through my mind. And I thought this I mean we we were happy together, we still are. Um but I just thought, yeah, this this could be the end of it. She could leave me, she could, you know, I'd be the laughing stock of you know the the the family she'd tell and and she's not that kind of she's she's you know the best partner I could ever wish for. She'd never there's no ill um she'd never ridicule me or um you know try and I don't know turn me into a black sheep or so what was what was her what was her reaction?

SPEAKER_02 1:48:14

Was she did she know? So a lot of time people know these things. They partners you know have got a six sense for these things.

SPEAKER_15 1:48:23

Yeah, no, she no, I don't think she knew. I d I I'm pretty certain that she I can't remember uh exactly what she said. I just remember her kind of laughing and uh and and not in a mean way, but in like, well, is that it? Is that why you're why you're you know why why you're so moved, why you're in tears? What's so what? Who cares? And I think that's um I mean she had a different we uh obviously everyone has has a different upbringing, but there was no sort of um hatred or anything towards um people being gay or anything in her family. And I uh she said to me as well, like, well, yeah, I mean if it was her mum and dad, her mum would be like, Yeah, well, alright, good. So, you know, like what's for tea? And uh maybe her dad had had more of a struggle with it, but he'd he'd it'd be alright with it, you know. So that was really um that that was great for me. That's that's exactly what I needed at the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:20

Um did she ask you any other questions about being bisexual, your feel your feelings for God? I mean, are you in a position with your partner? Often people talk about this, don't they? Where on the show you probably heard them, where people say, Oh, I I came out to my wife and told her, and sometimes they're horrified, but sometimes they are accepting, and and the partners together end up being in situations where they can watch TV and share their uh thoughts on hot guy and all that kind of stuff. You know, do you have those conversations with her?

SPEAKER_15 1:49:54

Um in the beginning we didn't, and that was that was quite hard for me because. um I'd I'd I told her quite a few times over the you know since since I'd sort of come out to her that it's hard for me to to talk about still after all this all this time and and because of uh because of my own mental struggles with it and I this is something that's changed uh m mostly last year so it's it did take a while. I think it was I think for her it was like alright so what you're bisex you're you're bisexual um all right let's you know so what let's let's move on and for me it was still um quite a big issue issue so yeah it's a big it's a big moment isn't it it's like you don't want somebody to be non-plussed you don't want them to be horrified but you do want them to at least talk about it a bit don't you and that's what you love been feeling really once yeah definitely yeah that that was my desire I what I really wanted for for her was to you know be we'll be kind of we'll be really curious about it and ask questions like oh well what does it mean does it mean this do you like uh that do you want to do this and I think for a long time she didn't do that because um I think she she might have been scared of what my uh what my answer would be so I think she was probably a little bit scared that oh well if you're bisexual then that means that you know you've because she's my only um like real sexual partner we've been together since since I was like 17, 16 um and I think she might might have been a bit scared like oh well that means you you want to go off to uh like uh gay bars and do all sorts of stuff and do the stuff that you've that you've never been able to do um which a part of a part of that is is is true I'd still like to um explore certain things um and because you know I see us growing old together I don't I don't think oh well in like five years I'm gonna leave her because I want to do this or that. No I just I hope that one day you know we'll be uh sat at home watching tele and be old and wrinkled and just be happy with with what we've done in life. But there are certain things I would still like to do um to explore to see like oh well is that really what I'm what what I feel or the you know the desires I have and so for a long time we didn't really talk about that but last year um as part of my therapy because it was such a big big subject um we did we did go there and and um she has been more curious and I've I've been more honest as well you know I've I've really been able to say well yeah I'd I would like to explore this and that with a diff with with another man or or together with you you know that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:46

So and I think now she is kind of uh also more curious to the exploration side of it maybe maybe together one day so yeah who knows what'll uh what'll happen in the future yeah that's good you've come a long way aren't you really come a long way but the fact that you've been together for so long you know each other inside out don't you so well you think so yeah but I don't think she did know that I was uh bisexual so but I mean that that's because I had I I didn't know myself I hid it from myself so well as well so yeah so that that issue really is what's in the way of you feeling 100% happy in a way isn't it in the sense that you haven't experienced you don't feel as you've experienced things you feel as you've you've lost out in a way haven't you you've you've you've missed that that opportunity you were talking about when you were a young boy and you had a bit of a closeness to a guy emotionally you've never experienced that in adulthood have you you know I mean so you've never had that's why you never had the sexual side either so that's what's that's probably what has been causing you the issues with your your mental health because you know if if you've been this is I mean this is the big issue isn't it with people who are bisexual generally because they don't get these opportunities to explore their sexuality um and and to settle in one manner or the other and just be at home with it um you know it it's gonna gnaw away isn't it at you for a long time and um I mean you've done very well to get a partner to have a partner who's understanding because there are so many guys who you know they tell their partners after years and years and years and they the partners leave them you know so I can understand uh oh definitely yeah what you went through there you know you know yeah I think I'm really lucky in that aspect yeah so yeah definitely definitely so what have you done I'm not necessarily saying what have you done sexually to go out and you've got out and met people or be on dating sites or whatever you may have been you may you could talk to some of that if you want to but have you reached out and managed to talk to any other apart from bisexual but have you managed to reach out and talk to any other bi people or gay people or anybody in that sort of area have you managed to sort of create your own little community and and obviously those communities exist in Amsterdam but you were saying you're quite you've always kept yourself you know you you you within a specific you know arena of people as opposed to roaring is out in that area have you have you looked at doing that or are you doing that?

SPEAKER_15 1:55:21

Um I have done a little bit online um as part of my kind of um journey um I've you know there there are certain subreddits where I've I've posted before asked questions or which I think Reddit's a really great place for a lot of things but it's also I mean it's also like the dark side of the internet in some ways as well because when I was you know quite vulnerable I asked and I posted anonymously obviously because that's where Reddit is um like this and that about my sexuality and then before you know it you know there's a few messages in my inbox saying oh yeah I've been through the same thing this and that and then there's a few just sending pictures of their knobs or whatever and and saying yeah come and meet me down uh this and that street and whatever I'm like that that's not what I'm after. Not right now anyway. So um yeah I mean Reddit's been okay and and I mentioned at the beginning as well um as part of my um as I've there are certain um marijuana anonymous and narcotics anonymous people uh groups meetings um there are also LGBT uh Q plus uh meetings that I've that I've been to online because in the Netherlands they're not that many and because I also work in mental health care myself um there's always a chance that I might run into someone so I prefer to do it um in in the UK or or America. But then then again uh yeah so I so I've I've met some people and also spoke to some people outside of the meetings which which has been really helpful. So yeah I I do just want to stress to anyone who is who struggles with their bisexuality or maybe come to terms with their bisexuality but is still struggling with any kind of substance abuse just please help yourself to go see a healthcare professional or go to the meetings uh give it a try because um yeah I mean addictions uh it's really hard to beat and I mean I've I've been clean for ten months now which I realise is still really quite fragile.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:32

I mean I'm not I'm not cured um yeah I I still think about smoking every day at least like ten times a day some some days more than others I mean coming into this meeting it's not thinking about it now yeah yeah just a little bit and sometimes even talking about it can can make you think oh shit I w I really wish I could light up now but um yeah yeah yeah I mean just please please get help absolutely now you mentioned then that you've managed to re you have managed to reach out a little bit you've spoken you've met a few people from LGBT circles or whatever but the what you probably haven't done I don't know whether this is true or not but you probably haven't directly probably pardon me and listening to bisexual you probably haven't directly managed to speak to anybody who is another bisexual man who's been through the same kind of things because you these LGBT groups they tend to be a lot of gay men generally or you know I mean maybe trans people or whatever it's very difficult isn't it to actually find other bi people and there are plenty of them out there but nobody goes around with a big B on their head so you can't find out who is bisexual.

SPEAKER_15 1:58:37

So have you have and and it's a it's a even though there are more of us than there are of other people in the the the other acronyms apparently um there aren't necessarily many groups either there are not many you know because people the way bisexual people are we're we're quite isolated aren't we we don't necessarily congregate around each other in that way you know what I mean so have you managed to connect with anybody who is bisexual any male men who are bisexual yeah um not not really not as much as I'd like to um I have a couple of uh female friends who are bisexual but like you said that's not it's not the same as I think everyone who ev every bisexual person has their own struggles but I think uh men and and and women or anything in between uh all have their own different problems but um uh no I I work in um mental health care myself and I recently met a man there um who was there for therapy who um was from Saudi Arabia and he told me he was bisexual and he had to well he had his own problems because obviously he was from Saudi Arabia and it's not very uh well it's it's it's not accepted there although I think they still have the death penalty there for it. And he was telling me all sorts about it and I was I was talk I was asking him all sorts of questions and I did have a desire to say well I I can't I there was this voice inside of me that was kind of wanted to shout yeah I'm bisexual as well I want to talk to you but because it was at work and it it just didn't feel I it it's not it's not really the place for it for for me at work which is a shame um because I well yeah I'm I'm not out at work um I I I no I've I mean I'm I'm quite friendly with some some colleagues but I've I just never felt like I should I should tell anybody there. I just I don't know it just doesn't feel quite safe and uh maybe maybe I should because I'm positive there's there'll be other people say oh well yeah actually I am as well or oh actually I'm gay or because yeah but you're working in mental health you feel as you should be able to mention that really to an extent yeah it's it's hard it's difficult isn't it it's difficult when you've got your own personal issues it's it's quite hard well with so with regards to your um your partner presumably you would have mentioned it presumably she's not bisexual at all she's not bisexual no nothing like that okay that that that that's um that would have been interesting if she'd been bisexual as well yeah yeah I was uh it would have been nice but um she she has said like yeah obviously she she has she has had like kind of fantasies I think or or just you know oh that that actors actress is uh attractive or whatever that that kind of thing but I think that's it I think women maybe have that well no I think that's probably bullshit I think men have that just as much as women but men just don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:29

There's this issue isn't there that there's a there's a trope that everyone that all men are interested in seeing two women getting it on and that women possibly can't possibly into be into men getting on but actually and I think there are a lot of women who are into seeing thinking on to the yeah I think so too yeah yeah going back blunt to this with this question and you can tell me as much as you want you don't have to be massively open obviously we're not you know we we're not um revealing your full identity and all the rest of it so you can be as open as you want to be um what would your you had these conversations with your partner you want to try and deal with those issues and do something and experience things what would your what would your fantasy be at the moment in terms of what would you like to do um yeah it's a hard question to answer because I'm not sure how how open I want to be about this um you don't have to be too explicit I'm just thinking do you do you want to I suppose what I'm saying is because you mentioned about emotions and things and being attached to women emotionally whatever um and obviously you've been with a partner for 17 years and you're obviously emotionally attached to her um are you worried that if you obviously you can go out and enjoy yourself and have a bit of sex or whatever it may be but are you worried that you might get attached to a a man emotionally and that might cause you problems with your your partner or well right now I don't see I don't see that happening so getting emotionally emotionally attached I mean I but it's it's hard to tell I mean um my girlfriend has said um before like well yeah I mean you only live once if you want to do this and that or want to go and try things with another bloke then then you can do it it's it's okay and but we've never really got any further than that because obviously I've thought about doing it and I've I've chatted to a couple of people that I've met through whatever and um but I've also I've always kind of chickened not one I say always like it's like I've done it a lot I've talked to a couple of people I've always kind of chickened out because I just think I mean there's a few reasons why I've chickened out but the main one I think is will it change uh the relationship with my girlfriend I don't want to ruin anything or throw uh away what we have or have her look at me different or or or yeah I mean I I suppose what you just said uh is kind of a fear as well like well yeah what what if I do get emotionally attached I think oh I actually I quite like this uh I want to do it every day um it's very difficult it's very difficult and and I suppose the other thing you mentioned was maybe having maybe you and your partner doing something together but even that can have issues in the sense the fantasy can be there and you think oh that sounds really exciting or whatever and and she might feel excited by that in in a different way as well but actually in reality I mean some people manage to cope with all these things really well but in reality the emotions come in don't they the jealousies and all these kind of things manifest themselves don't they so it it's a really difficult thing to navigate but there are there are therapists that can help you through that of course um there always there's um a lady here in the UK who was it's been on bisexual brunch actually um you may have heard her called uh laurie beth bisbey she's a therapist who she was on a TV series here called the great sex experiment where they they have people who are often part couples who want to share you want to have threesomes and all that kind of stuff and she she takes them through this and talks about it and and whatever so just as a bit of advice to you if if you were interested in that arena I think you know reach out to Lori she's actually really good at these things and she's bisexual as well so she she gets is she American she's American but she lives in the UK yeah yeah I remember now yeah I've heard that one yeah yeah yeah she's lovely she's really nice really friendly um so reach out to her so um but but it is I suppose what I'm trying to say is it's this is this is an itch isn't it that you want to deal with I think am I right in saying that yeah yeah and I mean sometimes um I can feel the itch more than than other times you know I mean when I'm when I'm just busy with all sorts of stuff it kind of yeah it's the the edge isn't that that that big but it it can be yeah yeah yeah yeah and and and and obviously you'll it if this manifested itself with regards to the addiction that's under control now which is good um what else what else do you think you need to help you through this sort of this transitional period you've got your support from your from your your from your partner are you are you communicating with her regularly on stuff and whatever or or do you think you need another do you need another person do you need somebody else to talk to is that what you probably need to get get you through all this um overall I'd say no I think we're we're we're doing pretty well we're we're quite community um but regards to the the the the the the sexuality um it would be nice to talk to another well another man who who who knows what it's like that's that is something I'm still missing and I'm not not quite been do you know what I was thinking uh bisexual brunch should start like a um a a group not like a dating group or anything but just uh I mean I'm not on any social media so I don't know if your your Facebook or whatever has something like that or people are uh writing it no we don't we have we we have thought about it it's just it's like a massive it's managing it really and and and I enjoy these conversations we have uh uh the you know the the um bisexual brunch bi journey stories it's it's great to have but I don't think I mean you're in mental health and you understand the issues but I'm not a I'm not a therapist you know I mean I'm not a I'm I don't want to I don't want it to be somebody who's who who everyone thinks oh I'm gonna advise them on stuff because I I can't you know what I mean it's just a case of having a conversation more than anything as somebody who's obviously bi you know so I've been through similar things obviously over many years so um yeah it's it's it's a difficult one isn't it but yeah I I mean I think I think what we need to do more than anything is to try and create more of a community but more of a community that isn't just online and isn't just podcasts isn't just you know I mean we I think we need we need people to meet each other and see each other don't they you know you know what I mean we need to we need to have the by groups and things like that in different places really you need to probably start one up in uh in Amsterdam so it's not a bad idea oh well so well yeah why not um what about um the attraction side of things then let's talk about this in terms of um men and women just to just give people an idea of so as a as a man who happens to be interested in you you find men and women attractive what kind of people do you are you attracted to are you very much bisexual or would you think of yourself more as a pansexual person where's your where do you sit on um is there something between bisexual and pansexual I don't I don't really know I think I'm uh the sex matters what I'm trying to say the sex matters the sexual attraction matters is what you're trying to say as well obviously the the the personal stuff you know the personality also matters as well which I think is probably probably true for true for most of us really and and do you um you uh how how do you do you engage in anything do you watch things do you watch porn all those kind of things you know do you and is your girlfriend or partner sorry happy with that you know do you she must know that you're interested in guys so you're gonna look at guys at some certain point yeah she she does yeah um yeah and porn is something I do do watch um for that particular um itch to scratch I suppose um because obviously I mean there's there's plenty of things me and my girlfriend can do and and do but there's uh you know some interests or um yeah I mean to to put it bluntly she hasn't got a knob as she ends and you know that that is is an interest I suppose uh so yeah I do I don't that came up in the last episode of the bisexual brunch where we talked about that there was a lot of guys who were by who were in relationships with women but when it came to having a relationship with a man they their need was very much to you know to feel penetrators and all those kind of things so came up was an issue uh but it also changed over time which is interesting because a lot of the the um the younger men were very much into older men and the older men were into younger men so there's the age thing as well which is quite interesting as it as it as you go as you get you know 20 something's into 40 something all those kind of things are quite interesting. We've never had an episode where we've gone that deep on sexuality which is which is um which which is very different.

SPEAKER_15 2:10:51

Well we've exhausted quite a lot though we've got to know a bit a bit about you which is great what um what then Chris you've had to come to terms with all this you've spent a lot of time struggling with it you've had all the issues with your dad and all the rest of it I think you've come to terms with the fact you are bisexual you've contacted us so that's that's part of the part of it I think and I I think hopefully we've helped you um in the last how long you've been listening to us for how long you've been listening to us who um probably about three or four years now it's helped help to listen yeah yeah yeah definitely I mean that's that's the reason why um I mean I think I started with um what is it I think is it two by guys I I discovered that because I just I just searched for bisexual podcasts when I started like well I I just need to listen to something uh to help me find out what what's going on in my head in in in my body and I I listened to that and I was like it's all right but it's the it everything everything's kind of like amazing with the Americans and that and no disrespect to the Americans listening sorry don't hit me um but yeah I just Came across uh by Suckshaw Brunch and I was like, Yeah, yeah, this is this is the one for me. And and because you well, you're northern as well, aren't you? And and and Nikki's from uh from up north. Um so yeah, it was it just felt like uh yeah, it just felt a bit more down to earth, I think. Yeah, yeah, it just felt like the place to be. So that that was really helpful. So I've uh I think I've listened to nearly all of them now. Because I I do I do it like when I'm doing DIY or anything at home, I'll just put it on, or when when I'm driving oh yeah, that's something I wanted to uh to to mention as well. Um sorry, my mind's all over the place.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:34

Yeah, no worries.

SPEAKER_15 2:12:35

Um when I'm I I I like to drive and when I drive I I I I often listen to the podcasts. Um I wanted to mention this as well because because of the there's still quite a lot of shame in the in the sexuality part for myself for me. And when I'm driving, you know, I have the little screen in my car that says what you're listening to. And I always I never do this, but when I whenever I have bisexual brunch and I always uh click the screen off just in case.

SPEAKER_14 2:13:01

You know, when I'm stuck when I'm stuck in traffic or the lights, the the the block next to me, oh what's he listening to? I don't know why it's just this weird thing that that hopefully it's probably it's probably he's probably bisexual too, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:13

He's probably quite curious himself.

SPEAKER_14 2:13:16

Maybe so, yeah. But it's the still this little nugget of fear that's like, oh what if someone what if someone has a look and and and and and finds out it's really silly.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:27

No, it's crazy. I understand that. I understand the um this heated rivalry drama that's on. There's one scene where um the gay character who's been although he always gay, he's been pushed by his family into meeting girls and whatever. And so he meets this girl and and but she works out that actually he's not um he's not straight at all. And she has this conversation and and he opens up with her and he, you know, he's gay, he's not bi, he's gay. But she says something along the lines of uh he says, I'm sorry about this, you know. She says, No, no, don't worry about it. She says about seven, about seven out of ten guys I meet, uh sorry, yeah, about seven out of ten guys I meet turn out to be uh uh turn out to either leave me for another man or turn out to be gay. So I suppose what I'm trying to say is that uh women now go women go through this quite regularly, you know what I mean? But that they realise that are I suppose what I'm trying to say is there are a lot of men out there who are attracted to other men who happen to be bisexual, or actually some men still call themselves straight even though they're attracted to other men. You that's another thing that's recently. That was me for years, I suppose. Yeah, you'd say you'd say you'd still say you were straight, wouldn't you? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_15 2:14:40

Definitely, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:41

Yeah, absolutely. In in knowing that, you've heard it a lot on the show that there is biphobia on both sides. Does going out and maybe meeting a guy uh at some point and being open about your bisexuality, does that worry you, or would you just not tell them?

SPEAKER_15 2:15:03

Sorry, what what kind of guy do you mean?

SPEAKER_02 2:15:04

Like uh if you met another guy, if you met a if you met another guy and you didn't know whether he was bi or gay or whatever, would you be would you want to be open to open with them about the fact that you're you're bi and you've got a you've got a partner and whatever? Um, you know, would that would that worry you? Because they're they're not all a lot of gay men aren't always accepting of bisexual men, you think?

SPEAKER_15 2:15:27

Um I'm not sure it. I think I probably would say. I I think I probably would, yeah. Because you know, because I've sort of had the feeling of having to hide it for so long. I'd think, well, why am I why am I gonna hide it from you? And if you if that makes you think, well, I'm not interested, or anything like that, well alright.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:46

Yeah, it's a it might help you to be honest, because there are a lot of there are also a lot of gay men who who fetishise bi men, so they like the fact that there's a buyman, so it's like it's you're turning yeah, they're turning you gay, you see, just in one encounter.

SPEAKER_15 2:16:02

That's how they're yeah, I've read about that as well.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:04

Yeah, yeah. So that might help me, yeah. You know, how do you feel about being fetishized? Whatever, yeah. I don't mind it, to be honest. So what is it then about being by that you um on the positive side? I always ask this question what is it about being by that you like? What do you like about being being bisexual?

SPEAKER_15 2:16:30

Um it's a good question. And I should have known it was coming because I know you asked that quite often, but it's one I didn't anticipate. Um I think it's been I think I'm quite I mean I have to be for my work, but quite understanding or quite um empathetic and and and tolerable of people of all walks of life, and I think that's that's that's quite a nice uh nice nice aspect of it.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:59

I think we largely I think most people most bisexual people are because of the way we are as as as way we're made up, I suppose, uh in that sense. But in terms of the attraction thing, do you do you like the fact that you can wander down the street and fancy different people of different genders and things and you can see something interesting in in different you know people of different sexes?

SPEAKER_15 2:17:23

Yeah, I do, yeah. Yeah. I didn't use to because it made me feel dirty. Yeah, dirty, yeah, that's the right word, yeah, yeah. Um but you know, I'm sort of making peace with it more and more.

SPEAKER_14 2:17:37

So no, I'm I'm alright with that now, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:40

That's good. Fantastic, fantastic, good stuff. Excellent, brilliant. Well, I think that I think we've um exhausted most of it. I mean, I could go, we could go on and talk about all sorts of things, but um I think you've you've said some really interesting stuff. I'm glad your your journey with you you've sorted out, you've started to sort out the addiction side of things. Not that there's anything wrong with people smoking marijuana every now and again and all the rest of it, obviously, but for you it became a an issue, didn't it? In that sense. Chris, it's been lovely to talk to you. Thank you for reaching out and um yeah, let's see if we can connect to a few people in the future. And and thank you for being such a loyal listener for quite a few years. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_14 2:18:18

Thank you. Yeah, well, thanks, thanks for having me. Thanks for for doing the podcast and and please keep doing it. If if anything, do it more often.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:26

Our lives get in the way, unfortunately, which is annoying. But yeah, absolutely. But I think I think there is um, I mean, I've been talking to Lewis about this quite a bit. There is a market out there for doing more stuff around bisexuality because there isn't anything out there anywhere else, really. Um, but it's making it for us, it's making it pay is the difficulty because we do it all voluntarily. And actually, even though we even though we've got a good audience around the world, it's still a fairly relatively small audience in a way. Um, and so getting the num getting the numbers to generate sponsorship and all that kind of thing is quite it's quite difficult, you know. So, podcasting by its very nature is a niche thing, you know, in that sense.

SPEAKER_15 2:19:06

You know, yeah. And everyone's doing it now, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:08

That's right. Everybody is uh uh doing a podcast these days. Well, anyway, Chris, thank you very much indeed for for talking to us. It's been a pleasure, and uh, we'll touch you again soon.

SPEAKER_04 2:19:23

You're listening to the Bisexual Brunch Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:27

It's bisexual brunch and it's another bisexual journey story. Uh this time I'm talking to uh Nikki Wake here in Manchester uh in the UK. Nikki describes herself as a serial entrepreneur. What does that mean, Nikki?

SPEAKER_11 2:19:41

Um, I guess it means that I've built and um run various businesses. So um, yeah, I can't stop having ideas and creating new businesses.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:50

Well, that sounds fantastic to me. Now you're a similar age to me. I'm 53 or 54. Um, you're bisexual. Um you've only I suppose in in some respects you're new to bisexuality in a way. Not new new, but what I mean is you weren't doing this when you were 14, 15, 16 as a teenager, were you? It's it's come new to you later in life.

SPEAKER_11 2:20:10

Um the bisexuality side of it has. I mean, I first slept with a woman when I was in my twenties. So so so yeah, um, I I I defined initially as straight, then I fell in love with a woman and defined as lesbian. Um then I defined as bisexual for a few years, and then I married a man, so uh but still defined as bisexual. So yeah, I've been I've been I would say happily bisexual for about 20 years.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:43

Yeah, that's great, that's fantastic. Um, but as you say, you didn't start off like that, and and none of us do. Most people who are bisexual don't realise we are in our teens because nobody talks about it, do they? That's fine. You know, if if people had talked about it at that age, would you have probably nailed yourself to the mask quicker, do you think?

SPEAKER_11 2:21:00

Yeah, definitely, absolutely. I I I guess I felt, um, as I think people often do, that you have to be gay or straight. Um, you know, that it that life is quite binary, isn't it, in that in that sense. Um and and yeah, I think I think had I been more aware of bisexuality as a label, I probably would have comfortably slipped into that um rather than trying to navigate my way through.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:22

So in the days when you um sort of I suppose I suppose the question I'm trying to want to get at is when did you when do you think you having these relationships with men and women, whatever, when did you when did it suddenly sink in that actually you know what? I actually fancy both and I'm happy with that.

SPEAKER_11 2:21:40

Yeah, I mean I think I think probably mid to late 20s was was when the penny dropped there. Um I was I was having um relationships simultaneously with a man and a woman, not together in a threesome set, but but running running parallel, and I realised that I was as happy um hanging out with either gender. And and and and neither felt right or wrong. You know, it it it was it was a different experience, but a great experience with both. And I think at that point I thought, yeah, no, I am I am bisexual.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:13

What was the different experience? Because often people talk about this, don't they, about how um in fact Lewis, who who presents the show with me, um, talks about how you have to treat a relationship with a man and a relationship with a woman quite differently in terms of just the protocols, the things you do, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_11 2:22:28

Definitely. I mean, it's certainly uh the ongoing joke, isn't it, is that when I sleep with a woman that you know she tries to move in with her cat on the second date, and and and that kind of is that I think women fall deeper and harder, and it's very emotional with women, whereas with men it's they're driven by their dicks, aren't they? You know, I mean it's I and I do think, yes, that is a kind of caricature sort of summary, but but stereotypes happen for a reason, and they happen for a reason because it is kind of how it is mostly. And um, yeah, I mean, I think I just think um there's something very different for me about making love with a woman than there is with a man. It's it's it's with a woman, it's it, you know, I I understand exactly what they're feeling, whereas with a man you don't, but that has its own delight that you don't understand how that feels. So so yeah, I mean it's you know, that's the beauty of bisexuality, is is is the the options that are available to us. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:23

And do you think, I mean, we often talk, don't we, about uh some people talk about being 50-50 and 20-80 and all that kind of stuff. Do you think of yourself in that way? Are you sort of very much?

SPEAKER_11 2:23:32

You know, I think it moves over over time. I think I think certainly for me it has. So when I when I fell in love and married my husband, I would say I was 90% um straight and 10% gay. Um, but I think right now I'm at least 50-50, you know, and occasionally some weeks it can feel 60-40 towards females, you know. Um, I think, yeah, I I I think it I think it evolves. I I always say that I I fall for a person, right? And for me, any sexual attraction has to ha happen in the mind. That's where the the biggest erogenous zone is, as far as I'm concerned. And and so I fall for the person, not for the genitals. And you know, I can have fun with with with anything.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:15

So would you would you think of yourself then because often people talk on our show about it being a bi umbrella, as it were. Are you would you think yourself more as pansexual than bisexual then?

SPEAKER_11 2:24:25

Yes, I probably would actually. Yeah, I don't I don't use that label. I I mean to be honest, I I mean I'm on the labels. I'm on I'm on field. I had to Google about 20 of them. I didn't understand what half of them were and still don't. Um so so yeah, for me, bi just sums it up quite nicely. And I, you know, I'm from an older generation, so I'm I'm you know, I'm I struggle with with that and pronouns and everything else at the best of times. So yeah, it it is. Um, but I genuinely believe that everyone in the world's bisexual. I don't I you know I don't, you know, I know um my son, for instance, defines as gay, but you know, I I'd argue that we were at Dieta Montees last night. He was definitely appreciating what was going on on stage at Dieta von T's, you know? So so I would argue that nobody is is a hundred percent gay or a hundred percent straight. I think, you know, if you let if anyone lets their guard down for two minutes and they fall for somebody, you know, anything is possible.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:22

We're still in a society, aren't we, where everyone thinks about binaries or want people want to push them towards binaries.

SPEAKER_11 2:25:27

I think because people like the simplicity of that, don't they? I think the problem with bisexuality is, you know, it's grey areas and and people don't like people yeah, exactly. You know, people don't like uncertainty, and and there is a huge degree of uncertainty, if you like, in bisexuality.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:43

When you've um been in a straight-facing relationship or a gay-facing relationship or whatever, um, have you always been open with your partners, whether they may be, about the fact that you are bisexual?

SPEAKER_11 2:25:54

Yeah, yeah, always. I mean, I'll be honest, I've never ever found a straight boy complain when I've said I was uh bisexual because they have this fantasy in their head that I'm you know about to, you know, give them a blowjob with another girl. Um and it never works out like that. I mean, really, they do need to learn that. But um the amount of times that boys have been left sobbing at the end of the bed, dejected and abandoned, uh, amuses me. But um, but yeah, um, so I've never had any complaints uh from that side. I I have found I've dated lesbians who struggle with me defining as bisexual. I think quite a few lesbians that I've dated didn't like that aspect of my sexuality. Um, and uh I'm in ethically non-monogamous relationship at the moment, and quite often we'll end up in a group scenario. And very often, if I'm with a woman who defines as a lesbian in a group scenario, um they won't like it if there's there's men in that group scenario. So, so so yeah, that you know, I I've I found more objection, I would suggest, from from lesbians that than I have um from straight men, but that's probably not surprising. It's just lesbians don't have those stereotypical fantasies.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:10

You get it in the gay male world as well. There's a lot of gay men are suspicious of bisexuality, unfortunately. Or they fetish bisexuals, they're like, it's like, oh, I can turn him straight. Turn him from straight to gay or whatever, you know, kind of you know so we we we we touched on this before, uh we might as well mention it now because I know it's been mentioned in the show. Um you you you you've become a fan of Heater's rivalry, I gather.

SPEAKER_11 2:27:33

I have indeed. It's my favourite TV show at the moment. I've loved it. I'm I'm desperately waiting for the next series. I I literally we we very nearly binge watched it in one night, and I was like, no, we've got to let this last, you know? Yeah, I needed to edge myself with it. Um yeah, it was uh it was a delight to watch. I loved not only the I thought I thought I thought it was beautifully filmed, um really sensitively handled, actually. I think that production company do some really great stuff. Crave. Um, yeah, it was it was fantastic. I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:03

It does tackle bisexuality, it's fair, isn't it?

SPEAKER_11 2:28:05

It absolutely does, yeah. No, no, no, no, no, it does. Um I thought I thought it was brilliantly done. Yeah, highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't watched it.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:14

Absolutely. Um, so you mentioned talking to other people about your bisexuality, and you mentioned the fact that um, you know, that some of the women are a bit iffy about it, some of the lesbians kind of thing. I've as somebody who is bisexual and and and mentions, often mentions to people that they're the bisexual, so yeah, I suppose in one sense you're always coming out in that sense. What kind of bizarre things have people said to you over the years about because people don't necessarily understand it, do they?

SPEAKER_11 2:28:39

No, no. I mean, obviously, when I married my husband, that certainly um lost me a few friends along the way. You know, it's like, oh, you're straight now. And it's like, well, no, I'm not. I'm just having a monogamous relationship with a man. I'm choosing to sleep with a man, but I'm still bisexual. And I think I think there were a lot of people confused by that. I think I think my dad thought I'd grown out of it. Right. You know, I mean I think that was very much his opinion on it. And and now you do when you're younger. Yeah, and he he kind of double took when I sort of said my girlfriend a few weeks ago, and he's like, Oh, oh, that's back on, is it? Right, okay. So, yeah, I think um yeah, I think I think you're right what you say about always coming out is that you will always need because almost people define you by your last relationship. Yes, I do, or your current relationship, not the fact that your sexuality is on a spectrum.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:29

And your husband who you were married to for a long time, sadly, he he passed uh what, five years ago, six years ago? Was it six years ago? How was he about your bisexuality?

SPEAKER_11 2:29:37

Um he I mean he was very typically male about it, always desperate for the idea that he was going to get a threesome at some point. I did promise him one for his uh for his 60th, but sadly he never made it. Now every time I sleep with a woman, I think of it. But uh, but yeah, no, he was very comfortable with it. I mean, he knew the kind of whirlwind that was me that he was taking on, and um and he knew that I was unapologetic about it and and always will be. You know, I'm proudly bisexual. And I, you know, I was at Pride in in August and very happy to be the B in the in the acronym and uh you know, showing that from the rooftops. I think um I think I think as a as a bisexual, it's very important that we do ra raise awareness of, and that's why I did the kind of press campaign that I did recently um when I was talking about my my dating apps, is is to talk about bisexuality very openly in the press. Um because it is important, and and people did assume that when I got married I was straight. And and that was never the case.

SPEAKER_02 2:30:36

Well, you've had a a life-changing moment there where you've lost a partner who you've been with for a long time, and suddenly your life has changed personally, and then you've things have changed for other people because they're seeing you in a different way, different models, aren't they?

SPEAKER_11 2:30:50

Yeah, I mean interestingly, we did a survey um with uh one of my dating apps, Widow's Fire, um, which is like a hookabout for widows and widowers. We did a survey with our membership and we found out that 60% of people had questioned their sexuality for the first time after grief. And I think I think the problem is when you lose a partner, when you have something utterly life-changing and devastating happen to you like that, it makes you question everything. And I think I said to you earlier, as widows and widowers, we do have a what the hell, yeah, you know, crack on, live for the moment attitude, because we know that life can and does change in a heartbeat. And um, and yeah, I think um, yeah, it it it it sometimes takes a a life-defining moment to make people ask the big questions.

SPEAKER_02 2:31:36

Well, this brings me to another question. Uh that we get inundated with people contacting us from all around the world all the time, every age group, but we get a lot of people who are in middle age in the 40s, 50s, 60s, who suddenly either listen to the program um or they uh hear the word bisexual or something, they suddenly think, oh my god, I actually I think I am bisexual or I've hidden this for so long, I need to do something about it. And then they get feel guilty about it, they're not sure whether to tell their uh their partners or whatever, they you know, that they go through all this stress and strain, and then suddenly at some point they might just sort of suddenly come out massively as though like they're a teenager again kind of thing. What would as somebody who's been through this kind of thing to an extent, what would you say to people? They don't necessarily have to have gone through um uh you know be widowed or whatever, but what would you say to people who've got to uh this age stage in their lives and realise there's something, an itch they've not managed to scratch?

SPEAKER_11 2:32:30

Yeah, well, I would say scratch that itch because you never know how good it might feel. Um, you know, I I genuinely think that as human beings, you know, we we're put on this earth to do one thing, right? And that's that's to make connections and and and and uh make love in whatever guys that we do. And and actually they absolutely should seize the day and seize the moment. And and and I think there's nothing sadder than having regrets. And if that's that's not a regret, you want to take to the grave with you, you know. I think the very worst thing can happen is you don't enjoy it. And then you then you then you've answered your own question rather than sitting with that doubt and fear and and to not be ashamed. There is no guilt associated with love, is love is love, and it doesn't matter what variety, shape, colour, or anything else that comes in. And um yeah, I would I would say live life to the fullest. You never know what what tomorrow brings.

SPEAKER_02 2:33:26

No, absolutely, absolutely. So, what would you say then is the best thing about being bisexual?

SPEAKER_11 2:33:31

Oh god, just the choice, the variety. The you know, every day is like, you know, I genuinely described it to a friend as having, you know, recently I feel particularly going in with an ethic ethically non monogamous front. I wish that was easier to say. Um you know, right now I feel like I've opened Pandora's box. I'm having a ball. Like my, you know, my life as a uh mid 50s woman is is is is varied and interesting, shall we say. And and um and yeah, uh the Voriety. Just having an open mind, I think, is one of the best things about bisexuality. Is never shutting anything down until you've explored it.

SPEAKER_02 2:34:09

Yeah, no, absolutely. And seeing the beauty in everybody in different ways, I think, in that sense, which is the interesting thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_11 2:34:16

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 2:34:17

So, but we're in this situation whereby you're very happy and open about bisexual. I am too, but there are a lot of people who aren't or or or or find it very difficult to express it. And we're in a world which when he to the rivalry is very good, and it's but it's very rare, isn't it? There's not many, there's not many programmes on TV or film or whatever that really deal with bisexuality in that sense, sadly. What do you think we need for bisexuals? What do you think? I mean, we don't have any bisexual bars, there's not all these things.

SPEAKER_11 2:34:47

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there is a there is a bisexual dating app called Binder. I know the guys who run it really well and and and highly recommend it. Um so so yeah, um, and I guess Field in some way kind of addresses that as well to a certain extent. You don't have to label yourself in quite quite the same way. Um yeah, I mean I I guess do you know what would be interesting is more bisexual club nights. Maybe I should run one. Um, yeah, uh, you know, I think I think I think definitely better representation in the media is really important. I think more um articles, press, etc. I think, you know, I was amazed at quite how much take up there was around the PR piece that my PR company did about my books.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:32

The reason we're talking to you.

SPEAKER_11 2:35:33

Yeah, indeed. So clearly it worked. Um, but I've done quite a few mainstream interviews with the Daily Mail. My husband would be rolling in his grave, um, etc. Um, so yeah, I think I think as bisexuals, you know, we need to talk loud and proud about it and um and and not be afraid to shout it from the reform.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:52

Why do you why do you think it is that you know when so we do bisexual brunch, we interview people all the time. Fantastic stories, everyone's got a different story. You know, you could get some you could get some fantastic books and TV programmes just out of radio programmes and dramas out of all those stories, but the media seem to run away from it. What are they running away from when it comes to bisexuality?

SPEAKER_11 2:36:13

Do you think I guess it's the difficulty of labels, isn't it? You know, it it's it's it in terms of a narrative and a storytelling, it's a it's a complex story to tell. And and I think the mainstream media like things to be black or white because that's easier to communicate. Um, they don't want an audience confused, I guess. Um yeah, I don't I just think it's it needs to be highlighted much more prominently within the acronym of LGBTQ.

SPEAKER_02 2:36:41

Oh, absolutely. I mean, one thing you said earlier on is that you think that just about everybody's probably bisexual. Um do you think that's part of the problem to an extent? They're a bit scared.

SPEAKER_11 2:36:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, there's too many of us out there. Yeah, I think yeah, absolutely. I think I think that probably is part of that. I think almost people within the media probably don't want to highlight it because it would then question their own sexuality, um, etc. So yeah, but I genuinely believe everybody's on the spectrum somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 2:37:08

Do you think you've got a bit of a baida? You know, people say talking about gay dar where they can find you can tell if somebody's yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_11 2:37:14

I mean, you know, I can I can well I've noticed you I I I think you can just you can tell if people are receptive to the idea. I think I think I'm very good at at finding bicurious women and helping with them with that curiosity. So uh yeah, that's my speciality actually on the field, um, is uh is that yeah, I think very often um, you know, uh me and my partner will date another couple, and very often the girl is defining as bicurious and has never slept with another woman, and I'm very happy to help with that. So um, yeah, um, much to her partner's delight, usually and mine. So um so so yeah, I I think I think yeah, I am quite good at at uh I've never misread that.

SPEAKER_02 2:37:57

You always picked it up.

SPEAKER_11 2:37:58

Yeah, I've never, yeah, I've never come on to someone who then went, No, I'm 100% straight.

SPEAKER_02 2:38:03

Right, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_11 2:38:04

So, but maybe I maybe you know there aren't any people who are 100% straight. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 2:38:10

No, I think you're right. I think most people are a little bit of something, you know, somewhere on the lines. Um, so tell us a little bit about the I mean this is straying slightly different, but I suppose it all connects. Tell us a little bit about the the dating apps that you you've got a plethora of them, haven't you?

SPEAKER_11 2:38:24

I I do indeed, yeah. So um I I run um three dating apps. Um I run chapter two dating.app, which is an app for widows and widowers looking for the next significant relationship. So I set that up on the back of being widowed and starting dating again and discovering the horror that is Tinder and mainstream dating, and realising there must be a better way. And I thought, well, there must be an app for widows and widowers, and there wasn't. So I I raised some funding and I launched one. Then I launched our naughty sister app, widowsfire.dating, which is a hookup app for widows and widowers. Um, I realised after a couple of years of trying to date on my own website, chapter two dating, and it's still going disastrously wrong. It was nothing to do with the website, it was the fact that I wasn't actually ready for a serious relationship, and therefore Widows Fire um needed extinguishing, shall we say? Um, and I also checked into rehab in 2024, got sober, and realised the challenges of dating as a sober person. And so I launched soberlov. So, yeah, I spend a lot of time talking about dating, love, relationships, sex. Um, it's it's quite hysterical. I very often get quoted in the media as a relationship and dating expert. And as my 18-year-old son said to me, nothing could be further than the truth. So, um, as you see, my uh my litany of disastrous relationships. Um, so uh so yeah, it's uh yeah, it's it's an interesting world to work in.

SPEAKER_02 2:39:50

Now, one thing we do notice whenever we interview people, uh, and also within the circle of people that I know who are who are bisexual, we can all of us, as bi people, probably count on one hand other bi people that we know of who we could go and be friends with and talk to. We don't know many people.

SPEAKER_07 2:40:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:40:06

You know what I mean? That seems to be an issue. Have you managed over the years to find bi friends, as it were? Would could you could you say you've got some bi-male friends or you know, are there people you could turn to or not many, not many.

SPEAKER_11 2:40:19

I would say the majority of my friends either define as gay or straight. Yeah, yeah. I would say, yeah, not that, not many. And I'm now thinking I absolutely need to organise a binary. I really do. I'm gonna I'm gonna sort that out. Yeah. I can't stop having business ideas.

SPEAKER_02 2:40:36

Support it on bisexual problems.

SPEAKER_11 2:40:37

I can't stop having business ideas.

SPEAKER_02 2:40:39

That's that's the that's well we're we're a huge community that's completely untapped, really, when you think about it.

SPEAKER_11 2:40:44

I just need to find a venue. Right, I'm on the case on that one.

SPEAKER_02 2:40:47

You heard it here first. Fantastic, fantastic. That's good. So with yeah, let's talk a little bit. We'll we'll we'll we're we're nearly done, but let's talk a little bit about the ethical non-monogamy thing. Because this is this has reared its head a lot. People talk about ethical non-monogamy, but they often talk about it very tentatively, as though, yes, we might do that, we might consider that kind of thing. You're somebody who's made that leap and done it. Yeah, what was it like making that leap and doing it?

SPEAKER_11 2:41:12

Um, it was quite interesting. So um, my partner um that I've been dating for six months now, um we met on my dating app, widowsfired.dating, he's a widower. So we very much had a live for the moment kind of attitude. He knew all about my bisexuality. He knew that me and my late husband um had a, shall we say, healthy sex life. Um uh, and uh we took that I told him that I talked often with my late husband about the idea of me having a threesome on his 60th birthday. So we kind of alluded to that. And at that point, he said to me, I'm not a jealous person, and I'd be very happy to consider an open relationship. And and so that was tabled from about three, four dates in. Now bear in mind I met him on a no strings attached site, so it came as no real surprise, you know, that he wasn't looking for his chapter two. Um, and actually, what has happened is I think we have found our chapter two, but our chapter two is an ethically non-monogamous relationship. And so we were pretty open from the beginning. And so within a month, we had a couple's profile on field, um, and we still do, you know, and and he I let him do all the admin, it's too much like hard work. Um, you know, um, and and so we have um, yeah, I mean, we've had numerous encounters with couples and with single females, um, and and it's been a great experience so far. I think the key to ethical non-monogamy is open, transparent communication and clear communication, and uh ensuring that that that that is the basis for everything.

SPEAKER_02 2:42:55

Um I think people often just get worried about the whole issue of jealousy, don't they, generally? Yeah, and it's which can come into it, okay. But sometimes we'll get over it fairly quickly, don't they?

SPEAKER_11 2:43:03

Yeah, I mean I I'm not a particularly jealous person and he's not, so that's fine. Um I I think yeah, I don't think we're looking for a polyamorous relationship. I think, I think we're just ethically non-monogamous. Um we kind of explored uh polyamory with um uh a woman that I see that you know, I guess I refer to as a girlfriend, um, but we didn't feel that working as a three-way dynamic on an ongoing basis. I think you know, it depends on the dynamic with with the individuals involved, of course. But yeah, I highly I can't imagine not having an ethnically non-monogamous relationship now. I think when you get to your 50s and you know that, you know, time is limited, shall we say, um, make the most of every moment. And I think it's probably slightly easier when you've got grown-up kids and you, you know, all that kind of stuff. It's it's not quite the same. I think I was always worried with my late husband about damaging the family unit, about something going terribly wrong and and just having to divorce. Whereas that that pressure isn't there. Now I've got an 18-year-old who's he's off having his own relationships and stuff, so and also haven't got kids to explain stuff to. So, so yeah, I think um it's definitely working for me. It's been an interesting experience. This is the first time I've done it, but for the last six months I've been happier in a relationship than I've probably been before, if I'm honest. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 2:44:30

And are you meeting more wet more women than men?

SPEAKER_11 2:44:33

Or um I favour women. Yeah. Um I think my personal view is I've got cock if I want it with with with Dan, and therefore, you know, if I'm gonna You're gonna stay with the woman, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, for me that that's the logical thing. Um straight. Um he he thinks he's a hundred percent straight, I disagree. But um, yeah, uh, yeah, uh, so that that's just for me personally. Um it's not to say it would always be the way.

SPEAKER_02 2:45:08

Yeah, it'd be interesting if you if it was you and a uh if you were a by man and the bi woman, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_11 2:45:13

Yes, yeah, I yeah, I don't know how that dynamic would work out. Yeah, I in my mind it looks a bit like heated rivalry, but sadly I don't think it is really. Probably not. In your mid-50s, it's not probably not probably not mockery reaction, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 2:45:25

But going back to the heated rivalry, the the one taboo I think it's broken is that for years and years and years, people always knew that I've always known that men are into women getting it on, and but nobody ever talks about women getting into men getting it on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Middle-aged women in particular are massively into this, aren't they?

SPEAKER_11 2:45:43

Honestly, I swear to god, I was saying to my my my son, I think because I don't like straight porn. Right, I I will never watch straight porn. I like reading written porn, that turns me on. I love uh literotica, great site with written porn if anyone's looking. Um that's fantastic, but I don't get off visually on straight porn. But that that was one of the hottest things I've seen and was incredibly exciting. I was like, maybe I just need to try gay porn. Um, so so yeah, I mean I'm I'm sure there's plenty of value in clone zone, isn't there? Um yeah, I not as well as that as well.

SPEAKER_02 2:46:18

No, possibly possibly not.

SPEAKER_11 2:46:22

Yes, yeah, I think actually the actors are really I think I think for me actually, because I was saying to you earlier that for me, you know, the biggest erogenous zone is the brain. And that and that and like so for me, without the emotional connection, I can't feel turned on, and and that goes across all of the relationships I have. Um, and and yeah, I do think that was really important in in that series, but I do think it was incredible.

SPEAKER_02 2:46:44

I feel like the cheekiness of the Irish sorry of the uh Russian characters. Yes, yes. It's really cheeky.

SPEAKER_11 2:46:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:46:49

I think that's really, really nice. And he plays it well, plays the bisexual uh character really, really well. He does indeed.

SPEAKER_11 2:46:54

Fantastic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:46:55

Well, listen, Nick, it's been really nice to talk to you.

SPEAKER_11 2:46:57

Pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 2:46:58

Um hopefully you've you've got some great ideas and we can go for it. Absolutely, I'll let you know when I do.

SPEAKER_11 2:47:08

I'm on the case. I'm on the case, I'll keep you posted.

SPEAKER_02 2:47:11

Fantastic. Well, it's really, really good to talk to you. Um the final thing, I suppose, is um for anyone who's listening, who's listening to Bisexual Brunch Save for the first time, has come across uh the podcast and is thinking that they might be bisexual, not sure about it, what would you what would your advice be to them?

SPEAKER_11 2:47:27

Um just to keep an open mind. And and and to to be very honest and open with yourself first, and and to yeah, to to try it. I mean, there's only one way to find out, and and you have nothing to lose, you know. The very worst thing that can happen is you don't have the best experience, and then that defines uh that gives you clarity in your mind rather than questions.

SPEAKER_02 2:47:53

Um I think one of the things that a lot of people have difficulty with, and think we all have this difficulty with, is because we're in this binary world where is that you don't feel necessarily that you're inverted commerce bisexual unless you've experienced things with both sexes or more set more than one sex or whatever. Do you know what I mean? So you sort of you know, I uh several people talk to us about the fact that that they they they they feel as though they're they're they're cheating in a way, not cheating on them, they haven't they can't they're not com they can't they can't they can't convincingly talk about being bi unless they've managed to have sex with several, but actually it's not about that, is it?

SPEAKER_11 2:48:31

No, it's about mindset, isn't it? It's about being open to the idea, I think. Yeah, of course you can, absolutely. Uh yeah, being open keeping a very open mind about who you're dating and who you're speaking to, and don't don't don't rule anything out.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:44

And you can also be emotionally attached to more to men and women differently, can't you?

SPEAKER_11 2:48:49

Yes, of course you can.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:50

You know, I I think of myself as I'm sexually attracted to men and women, but I'm probably slightly more emotionally attached to men. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? But we're all different, aren't we? We're all different. And that's the thing, is it not to be scared of the fact that you you might hear people might hear your story or my story on bisexual brunch, but everyone's story is different.

SPEAKER_11 2:49:08

It is indeed, yeah, absolutely. We've all we've all had our own journey to where we've got.

SPEAKER_02 2:49:12

Yeah, absolutely. Nikki, it's been lovely to talk to you.

SPEAKER_11 2:49:14

It's really good to talk to you. Okay. Thanks.

SPEAKER_17 2:49:17

And now it's time to ask a bisexual.

SPEAKER_02 2:49:22

Second question then. I'm Jimmy, 26 from Dudley in the West Midlands. I'm by not out too many people, and I've been with my girlfriend for just over a year. She's bisexual too, but she doesn't know that I am. Recently we had a threesome with another woman. My girlfriend really enjoyed exploring her gay side, and honestly, watching her with another woman really turned me off. The thing is, I'd love for us to try for a threesome with a guy next time, but I can't bring myself to tell her that I'm biased well. I'm scared she'll think I've been hiding something, or that it'll change how she sees me. There's another layer to this too. I don't actually know how I'd feel seeing her with another man. Part of me thinks I'd be fine, part of me worries I'd get jealous or insecure. How do I even start this conversation? And is it unfair of me to want something I'm too scared to be honest about, Jimmy in Dudley? Well, there's a show that comes on channel four late at night, um, called Great Sex Experiment, and uh it's quite funny because on on several occasions there have been situations where um the the they've couples have decided to have another woman in the in the um you know threesome or whatever, and um on several occasions the the guys have been sat just sat there twiddling their thumbs, just really, really you know, out of it not getting any action at all and being pretty pissed off, which is quite funny, and it's not gone anywhere after that. I don't know if you've ever seen it seen that show, Laura, but it's quite it's quite good. Um, what's your reaction to the to that one, Laura?

SPEAKER_01 2:50:57

Um, so first of all, no, I don't think there's anything wrong with you wanting this, even if it makes you scared. I think that you're absolutely within your right to want to do this, and I totally understand the fear about telling your partner. I think that women um experimenting with women is seen as um sort of frivolous and not indicative of um a queer identity sometimes, even if it is. So I think people tend to really brush that off. But I think with men, it's a lot more um, I don't know, it feels a lot more serious, it feels a lot more like you are aligning yourself with self with something that you then can't shrug off. Um and I'm sure Liris will um talk more about that. So I think it is in a way, it's it's a lot harder, it's a lot less societally acceptable. Um, but I mean, in terms of bringing it up with your girlfriend, you've already started that sexual experimentation conversation where you've introduced something new and you know you've both really enjoyed it. So I think you could just continue that. I think you could say, you know, um, I really, I really liked that. Is there anything else that you feel that you would like to do in our kind of experimentation journey? How would you feel about this? I, you know, I saw you really enjoying yourself, and I wonder if it's something that I would like as well. You can really just dip your toes in and go really slow if you don't just want to come out with that I'm bisexual and I want to do this. You can just sort of like test the waters if that doesn't feel as scary to you. And then with regards to not knowing how you're gonna feel seeing her with another man, so that worry about jealousy and insecurity, I think that there's a really big myth with um sort of polyamory or with um threesomes that you have to get rid of 100% of your jealousy and insecurity to engage in that. But actually, it's really common that your feelings of jealousy might coexist alongside feelings of, you know, really um enjoying something or really liking something. And I think it's about kind of tapping into that feeling of jealousy and what is it that you're actually worried about because jealousy is obviously a feeling, but we can tap deeper into that. So you could ask yourself like, is it the fear of um comparison of your girlfriend comparing another man to you and then you feeling inadequate? Is it a worry about your masculinity and what you know your girlfriend being with another man would mean for your masculinity? There's so many reasons that you could be feeling this way. So I think it's really important to tap down deeper into those feelings and and question that. And if it is a fear of, say, oh well, I worry that you know my girlfriend's going to enjoy having sex with this man more than me, that needs to be something that you talk about with your girlfriends when you're having these discussions. There's a really good book actually by um Ruby Rare called The Non-Monogamy Playbook, and it talks about, you know, um jealousy and it talks about how to manage that and how to um embark upon these sort of non-monogamous relationships in a way that feels really healthy and where the communication is there, and there's a whole chapter about threesons. So I really recommend that and just doing your reading and recognising that it's okay to have complicated feelings going into these things, you don't have to iron out absolutely everything before you dive in. And ideally, that would be a conversation with your partner as well, so you're not sort of alone with your thoughts there.

SPEAKER_02 2:54:08

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, it's all about talking, isn't it? It's all about communication, it really is.

SPEAKER_07 2:54:13

Yeah, it really is.

SPEAKER_02 2:54:13

Yeah, you know, we we just I mean, I mentioned this, we we just aren't that good at it. Let's face it. I mean, I admit this, you know, even with my partners, you know, I often pride myself as being somebody who communicates, but there's certain things that even I just don't talk about, and I really should, you know, at times. What about you, Lewis? So you are you are you do you talk to your partner heavily about all these kind of things?

SPEAKER_13 2:54:33

Probably in the beginning, but we're 10 years in now. What's there to say? Um uh with regard to this question. Um, so I agree Laura and I agree on quite a lot. Um, so I would say um, yes, to Laura's point, like you you're putting way too much pressure on yourself. You don't need to be like, I'm bisexual too, and I want to have a threesome with a guy, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. Like, that's just so heavy. Like, take a step back, you know, maybe have another threesome with a girl since you're both comfortable with that, and then maybe say, have you ever wanted to do a threesome with a guy? Like, I've got to be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about it, but would you? Okay, and and who would touch what? And what would you do? And what would the safe word be like? Just, you know, casual chats about it over time, not really agreeing to do anything. Maybe it'll take six months of little conversations about it here and there to get you to that point where it's like, you know what? She's up for it. I've said that I'm okay with doing oral on him or whatever, and everyone seems okay with that. Um, so that is kind of how I would approach it. But should you? So, two things. One is that from reading the the letter, and uh, you know, maybe it's what I'm inferring from it, not really what state it is. Are you trying to use this situation to explore your bisexuality? Because it's there's a Sort of element of it where I feel like there's a little bit of trickery in that sense of I want to be with a guy, I've got a girlfriend, but if I can convince to have a threesome, then maybe I can have that exploration. And maybe that is where some of the anxiety around this is coming from because it's not exactly being that honest in that sense. So I do think you probably need to have a little think about that. Um, and just kind of at least go into it with clean hands that you're not gonna be able to do. Is he frying what you're thinking of?

SPEAKER_02 2:56:30

Is he is he is he is he frying he's gonna enjoy it too much? Basically, is what you're saying, really, in that sense.

SPEAKER_13 2:56:36

No, not so much that it's not really about him, it's more about are you using this girl to help you explore your bisexuality? Because you know, and obviously it's really hard if you're in a monogamous relationship, although not that monogamous according to the letter, but um it it it just to me is like I I just wouldn't want to bring someone in and sort of use them as sort of my halfway mediator to because what I really want to do is just see what sex with a guy is like. And I don't know, you might have already had sex with a guy, so I might be totally misreading that, but that to me sounded a little bit just something you might want to think about.

SPEAKER_01 2:57:12

Um in an ideal world for for for this person, in an ideal world would their girlfriend be there? And what is their girlfriend bringing to that sort of fantasy? Is there anything? Is there uh benefit to her being there when you're thinking about it yourself and you're thinking about what do I want from this? I think yeah, it's a really, really good point, Lewis. And is it just I would like to experiment with a guy, or is it I would like myself and my girlfriend to experiment with another guy? Um, because the last thing you want is you know, we talked about sitting there twiddling their thumbs, the last thing you want is to have, you know, your girlfriend feeling like actually, I I'm not really a part of this.

SPEAKER_13 2:57:50

Yeah, and sort of that trope of is it less gay for girls in the bed too? Yeah. Um so I I don't know. I and that might be misreading it, but then you do go on in the letter to say, I'm not really sure how I'd feel about her sleeping with another guy. So I I I think you know, I think there's that. But just to focus on that part of it as well. Um look, I know that there are a lot of people, so I've heard it over the years, where they have kind of the bisexual people they've wanted to explore, and this has been a way that they have done it, and then it has really impacted them seeing their female partner enjoying sex with another man, and they can't get it out of their head. So I'm not gonna lie to you and say that it could, and you know, Laura Laura's made some good points about ways you can get around that and books to read, and that it's that's not the experience for everyone, but there is for some people a sense of oh, we can't take that back, and it has dented. I've spoken to one guy before who had a threesome, he was like the guy who had a threesome with a couple, and they broke up shortly after because the guy couldn't get over the fact that she'd had sex with this guy that I knew. Um, so it can be tricky, and maybe that is where if it is something you want to do, you just sort of dabble and experiment. You say, you know, this is we just let's just try kissing tonight. Okay, maybe we could try oral in a few months' time and really just sort of get a feel for how you feel about it because it can change dynamics in a relationship. But what I will end on is a topic that I really want to make big this year, which is bisexual regret. Because the amount of people that will email me and say, I knew I was bisexual, now I'm married, we're monogamous, and I'm never gonna get to explore this. So there is an element of don't be one of those bisexuals, and I love them, and you know, this is not disrespect to them, but one of those bisexuals that is emailing me later on in life in their 60s sometimes and saying, My God, I missed my opportunity to explore this. Why was I so in my head about it? Why was I so scared to go for it? Because now I'm 60, I don't care. So I do think I'll be, you know, I don't want you to have bisexual regret, is what I'm saying. You know, explore, but there are just factors you need to sort of consider.

SPEAKER_01 3:00:08

I also think that one of the things that I'm a really big advocate for, um, and it really depends on your comfort level when it comes to dirty talk. But I think one of the safest ways that you can explore something new is to have monogamous sex with your partner, but as part of that sex, describe a different fantasy. So it could be that you were pleasuring your partner and then you're whispering in her ear this fantasy that you have, obviously with her consent if she's okay with it, and just see how you react to that in the moment, see if that's something that she's into, see if that's something that you, as you're saying it, you know, if you're saying, Oh, well, this other guy is going to be with you, as you're saying that, how does that feel in your body? Are you sort of feeling like, yeah, that that really excites me, or is it something that scares you? And it might be both. Um, but I think that just playing those out with a bit of dirty talk, a bit of like watching some porn together, um, sexual fantasies, that can be a really kind of a good way to dip your toes in and to not dive straight in without having explored how that feels.

SPEAKER_02 3:01:05

You'll know straight away whether the person doesn't like it or not. I don't know if you've seen there's a there's a there's a cop there's a comedy series called Cheaters. Uh it's it's a 10-minute um burst basically of a series that BBC did last year and the year before. Very good actually. Um, and there's it's all about basically cheating. And uh there's what there's one bit where this uh um the two the two protagonists are both cheating in their own different ways, but the what the the woman is trying to sort of uh uh I don't know to get the guy used to understanding the way she feels about her uh she's bisexual um and um and they're having sex, and she in order to get to have sex, in order for her to turn us to be turned on, she has to watch Lesbi Lesbian Encounter. Um but he can't get his head around you know having sex with her penetratively uh while she's watching this lesbian encounter, and it's quite it's the whole thing's quite funny, but but yeah, what I'm saying, it it certainly breaks the ice and but might break a few other things at the same time. That's the problem with it. But no, I understand what you're saying. Again, it's communication, isn't it? Just communicating your feelings and your fantasies and things, and and the other thing about fantasies, of course, is they're they're often better as fantasies because in real in reality they don't turn out the same way, do they? It's often a huge disappointment, isn't it? I mean, we've I'm sure we've all had situations like that when it's been a huge disappointment.

SPEAKER_01 3:02:36

Yeah, or just awkward. Like I think people really romanticize, or like maybe not if maybe romanticise the wrong word, but we think that oh, we're gonna have a threesome and it's gonna be amazing and sexy and all these things. And it can be, but it might also be a lot of talking about logistics, a lot of talking about STI status beforehand, um, figuring out what someone likes because actually it's very different to what your partner likes, so you're having to switch up tactics. Like it's okay for it to be awkward, but I think imagining a threesome, if you're imagining a threesome in a in a like, you know, this wonderful, like pornographic, euphoric sense, then yeah, that's going to appeal to anyone. But if you're imagining it in the reality, is it then still going to appeal to you?

SPEAKER_02 3:03:16

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And to be honest, you know, the other thing, uh just being blunt about this, I could probably count on one hand the amount of um times when sex has been uh absolutely brilliant, you know, it's been been spont really spontaneous and all the rest of it. Most sexual encounters, there's an awkward moment of some kind, isn't it? Let's say we're human beings, for God's sake, you know.

SPEAKER_01 3:03:42

Yeah, I've always said you can't, there's no one has ever taken their jeans off in a sexy way. If you're taking your own jeans off, that's always gonna look awkward.

SPEAKER_02 3:03:51

Absolutely, absolutely. Of course, I'm sure you had lots of perfect encounters, Lewis, when you were when you were much younger. They were all perfect, and I look great taking my jeans off.

SPEAKER_16 3:04:02

Ready to ask a question of your own? Send an email now to info at maidenmanchester.tv. And in the subject line say, for the attention of bisexual brunch. And you might get featured on a future show. Don't be shy. They won't bite.

SPEAKER_02 3:04:17

So bisexual brunch continues and we've had a bit of a break. We've not heard from him for a while. Tom Ward Thomas joins us to talk about all things uh film, TV, uh, and everything in terms of entertainment when it comes to the bee. Um Tom, um, hello, hello. Uh now, uh, before we before we start, you've just been away on a lovely trip to Africa. You've been sending pictures all over the place about uh where you've been and South Africa and Namibia and all the rest of it. Now, while you were there, you took your bow with you, didn't you? Um this is somebody you you started going out with around exactly a year ago, is that right? Yeah, we've just had our year anniversary. Yeah, fantastic. And this is this is your first gay-facing relationship. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_18 3:05:03

My first boyfriend. Um first serious relationship with a man, and it's it's one that I want to continue. So uh it's it's a relationship I want to continue. So yeah, it was quite a big, interesting, interesting and very uh fruitful and wonderful time to go away. Uh for we were we were there for three weeks together and I stayed a little longer on my own afterwards. But yeah, it was it was it was it was eye-opening.

SPEAKER_02 3:05:28

Well, don't give us too much too much detail on this yet, because we are going to talk about it in another episode about your experiences, but um obviously you've been with him for a year now, which is fantastic. Um just briefly, what what the what are the things, subtle things you had to learn in terms of compared to dating a woman, dating a man, do you think?

SPEAKER_18 3:05:48

Um well it's a very different relationship in general, I think, than I've known before. I feel much more serious about this one than I have um in the past. Uh so I don't know what that says. Um but I I think uh there are differences. I think also it's interesting uh to note the differences between us as well as people, as individuals. I think I'm much more aware of uh of of differences between us than and I think it's it was easier to kind of just accept differences when it's when you're different genders. And when you're the same gender, you almost expect more similarities. Does that make sense? Like you expect each other to be more similar or like to be other like similar kind of things and and noticing those differences in tastes and everything, you kind of I think maybe that's sometimes a different that's an adjustment. Whereas I think those differences and those contrasts you take for granted in when the gender is different, which I'm not sure if it should be that way, but I'd that's something I've noticed.

SPEAKER_02 3:06:53

Well, there will also be things that you have in common, of course, being a good thing.

SPEAKER_18 3:06:56

Oh, absolutely, yeah, loads loads of that, which is also wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 3:07:02

And is he gay? He's gay, yes. Right, okay, okay. And and again, not not going into too much detail on this. Has he always been throughout that year of you going out with each other? Is he always been quite happy with that? Or is it did it take him a while for him to get used to you being bisexual or what kind of thing?

SPEAKER_18 3:07:20

No, it didn't take it many adjustments. Um it was interesting to note actually when I mean we met online, we met on hinge, and I did I put on my hinge that I was bisexual? No, I didn't, I didn't. Um but I think I kind of made that pretty kind of plain quite early on. And no, there was no um there was no there was no issues from him. In fact, something I noticed from early on, he was like he would refer to us both as queer rather than gay, which I just and I noticed him correcting himself once. He even said kind of a look at Oscar Gay, queer. Because I mean he's not buying and and I'm not sort of strictly speaking gay. So kind of he used that kind of blanket term, which I quite liked and appreciated. Um no, I think it's funny because we also kind of appreciate other men together uh quite a lot, and that's something kind of we have quite different tastes in men. Um, and that's something we freely admire. And I know my friend um Nick said, like, I would never like walk down the road and say to Lucy, oh of course she's fit, about a woman walking down the street. And I'm like, Oh yeah, me and David do that all the time. Um, but I am I I feel a little bit unconscious about if I kind of be like, Oh, look at that beautiful woman or something. Um I think I probably would be more hesitant to do that. So that's another little observation I've made. Not that he'd be bothered by it, but I think he might maybe because it's not something he would engage with, but we can both engage in male appreciation.

SPEAKER_02 3:08:49

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, we'll talk more about that in the future because I think it's a l an interesting area to go down, and I've had that experience as well. And often on the show, we we often talk about people in straight-facing relationships, and I don't think always go into the detail of people in gay-facing relationships. And there are a lot of guys who contact us who are usually in straight-facing relationships and wondering what it would be like to be in a gay-facing relationship. So I think we need to convey that a little bit further in the future. So, but but on the same topic, actually, to an extent, actually, this helps to lead us into us talking about film and TV and whatever. Heated rivalry. Now, you just mentioned there how um nervous you were, possibly could be nervous about mentioning women you fancy. One of the elements of heated rivalry, which we we know now does tackle and talk, you know, has bisexuality in it, is all about um Ilya and Hollander understanding Ilya's bisexuality. And you can tell, it's never said, is it, but you can tell in Hollander's reaction that when Ilya starts to talk about women, um Hollander is a bit nervous about that. You can tell in his eyes and his features, he's thinking, Oh, what does that mean? That's a risk to me. I'm gonna am I gonna lose Ilya to a woman? And I think that I think it's conveyed very subtly, but it's very good, very nice.

SPEAKER_18 3:10:06

Yes, there is that one moment. Firstly, I should clarify, I don't feel necessarily nervous about mentioning women that I try to see or women I appreciate. It's just something I think he doesn't connect with, so I feel like I'd rather not do it. I don't feel kind of like, oh, he's gonna he's gonna get annoyed if I if I do. But it's just something that I I've noticed that it kind of might make him feel inadequate or or not, I don't know, really, but it's just something I'd rather not do. Yeah, there is the moment where he um where Ilya Rosnov is talking about giving a uh a visa um and marrying a friend of his who is a friend with benefits. Um has US citizenship. Um and yeah, there is that moment where Shane Hollander goes, just don't do that. Just we'll do we'll work it out. We'll work out how to get but just don't marry her. And he's like, It's just for the visa. Yeah, but just don't do it. And you can see there is that the idea of him being married to a woman would be like so threatening, even if it's just for practical purposes.

SPEAKER_02 3:11:12

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, listen, we'll talk more about this in a second. Um one of the issues we've already discussed on the show um uh earlier on is about the interpretation of this series. There is bisexuality in it, but how is it interpreted out there, you know, in terms of the media, in terms of the public? Um, who, you know, how did how how is this being defined? Um so we sent Daniel Manning out uh in uh central London in Camden um to chat to a few people about their interpretation of what um heated rivalry is. So she did it in a very subtle way and asked them sort of general questions without sort of being specific. Well, she didn't tell them that she was representing bisexual brunch for a start. Um and let's have a listen to what people had to say.

SPEAKER_05 3:11:58

Big love, love, love, love, love. I absolutely love heated rivalry. I love the TV series. I love all six books. I read all of them. My favourite was the long game. Um I think representation is so, so important. And I think that um a really big demographic of people watching Hated Rivalry is straight women, and I think that if we can put this love and energy into a TV series, we can actually support real cooler people. Nice.

SPEAKER_10 3:12:20

Um, can I ask you a couple of things? Yeah. Great. Um, so how would you describe the show?

SPEAKER_05 3:12:27

Um, I'll describe it.

SPEAKER_10 3:12:29

Oh, big one.

SPEAKER_05 3:12:32

That's really hard. Um sport, it's got some sort of sport in it. Um definitely a lot, it's really fast paced because of the time changes.

SPEAKER_10 3:12:43

Um I feel like we're missing something really big. It's a bit saucy when you think.

SPEAKER_05 3:12:49

Oh yeah, it's it's very hot. Um definitely for older watchers.

SPEAKER_10 3:12:56

Do you think that's why people like it?

SPEAKER_05 3:12:58

Um, yeah. Um I liked it because it's very entertaining. Um definitely loved the the steamy action. Yeah. Was it romantic though as well? Okay. Or was it romantic? Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_10 3:13:12

So you're talking about queer representation. One thing you haven't mentioned is bisexuality. So Ilya in the show, I think people speak of him as though he's a gay character. Well, yeah, he's bisexual.

SPEAKER_05 3:13:25

Yeah, no. They always go well when when people, especially in the books, when people were saying, Oh, well, you you you know, sleep with lots of women, and he's like, Well, I'm bisexual. And no one's like, Oh, are you, you know, are you going to be gay? Like, are you is this girl coming out of being gay? Um, especially in the books as well. Um, he blocked every every character and he's like, Oh my gosh, yeah, you're bisexual, that's great. He loves it.

SPEAKER_10 3:13:48

Yeah. So nice to see you. What's your name? Yeah, following. Thank you for it. Oh good, sorry to do it. Hardam? The bisexual front? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:13:56

Oh yeah, okay, okay. Nice to see you.

SPEAKER_09 3:13:59

I have I feel like you've got to be a good one. No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_10 3:14:01

I don't know if I've just said how would you what do you like about it? How do you describe it?

SPEAKER_09 3:14:06

I um I just like it. It was a good watch. That was all like I was told to watch it and I enjoyed it. Like, what were the best bits? Uh oh, that's a great question. I I was um definitely a little bit for challenges. Yeah. Um I just really loved how like the pace of it. It was like really engaging. Like I was like, oh, next episode, next episode, next episode.

SPEAKER_10 3:14:32

And what do you think about people talking about characters as either gay or bisexual? Do you think it matters?

SPEAKER_09 3:14:38

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I'm like, I don't yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:14:44

And really genuine actors, like the actors are great, like genuine.

SPEAKER_09 3:14:48

The videos of them, it's been like that, it's been almost the business, but you're seeing all the videos afterwards. I'm like, this is great. Yeah, so you're really into the actors. Yes, yeah, no, I just naturally they've all been in my feed. Like, I didn't even enable that it just happened, but yeah. Okay. Alright, what's going on in funny, funny, nice to speak to you.

SPEAKER_10 3:15:07

Nice to speak to you. So, what have you heard about heated rivalry even though you haven't seen it? Lots of sex.

SPEAKER_08 3:15:15

Yeah, that it's a bit sexy. The only thing I know about it is like the interviews with the two actors and their chemistry and and that kind of thing. But I know it's been endorsed by a lot of people. I saw something about it um like American athletes coming out because of it. That's something I saw. Um, I've also seen a lot of uh rhetoric online about if it were two women as well. And whether there's like um whether there would be space about how it would be received if it were a tutorial about lesbians and not gay men, because obviously gay men have the backing of straight women. Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 3:15:54

Um I know you haven't seen the programs of this. Yeah, yeah. One of the things I wanted to ask about was the idea that the two guys are seen as gay, but um one of them actually like has relationships with women. Um did you did that come up at all in like anything you've seen in the other videos, the fact that one of them is actually bisexual?

SPEAKER_08 3:16:12

Um no. No. I've just seen like um conspiracy and like uh ghost around not ghost, but around the actor's sexuality, which like who gives a fuck?

SPEAKER_10 3:16:26

But um, do you think people would be as interested if the characters were bisexual like people spoke about it as the characters being bisexual at the end of the day?

SPEAKER_08 3:16:33

Yeah, well, I think there's like a whole lot of bisexual like erasure in a lot of film and television. I've had it translated so many times a lot recently. I think I actually don't know many men that are bisexual because I feel like they don't really get given the option. Like women I feel like get given more of an option to explore both men it's kind of like you're one or the other. Yeah, that's how it's always kind of Yeah, like decided or extended acceptance rather than option per se, but um yeah.

SPEAKER_10 3:16:58

Nice. So I'm recording for bisexual brunch, the podcast. And this is a little bit about the sort of buyer rage uh program, which is why I didn't want to tell you that I was like, but thanks to your opinions.

SPEAKER_08 3:17:09

Well, I'll look it up.

SPEAKER_10 3:17:11

So cool.

SPEAKER_08 3:17:12

My hand is so 20 right now. What's your name?

SPEAKER_10 3:17:15

Peggy, thank you, Peggy. What's your name? Millie. Millie, nice to meet you both. Danielle, Danielle, thank you. Nice to see you guys. Good luck today. Thank you. So you haven't seen YouTube Rivalry, but you said everyone's been telling you to watch it. Yeah. What have they said about it?

SPEAKER_06 3:17:28

Oh, my friend, okay, my friend from Canada, she was the one that was really telling me to watch it. But she was saying that like the storyline is supposed to be like fantastic. Um, the characters are very interesting and like, you know, easy to like no to fall in love with. Like, I don't know, but like she mentioned it was a little she did, she did, she did. But um, yeah, she was like, Don't watch it with your parents or like yeah, but yeah.

SPEAKER_10 3:17:58

Okay, um We have people talking about the uh the relationship between the two main kinds of team.

SPEAKER_06 3:18:05

I remember having a conversation about it, but not too much in detail. I'm not gonna do it on my level.

SPEAKER_10 3:18:13

Did anybody say that they would have maybe fighting out about it?

SPEAKER_06 3:18:19

Um I mean that's what I was told and um yeah, they said like there was a bit of like detention taking place.

SPEAKER_10 3:18:32

Um yeah, I I don't I don't know too much about in the media it seems like a lot of people are talking about the two bites being gay. Yeah, but one of them actually has relationships to women. So you would be fighting. Um so it seems like maybe they're ignoring the fact that it's not a gay relationship, but it's like a relationship where one of them is actually bad. Yeah, but then if it's picked up on that.

SPEAKER_06 3:18:55

Um since I don't know much about the two, I think that's a good very good point to be raised because like you know, just does the fact that like you know, you may like guys count about the fact that like you're bisexual in nature, you know what I mean? Um which I think like you know, everyone is entitled to be classified the way that they want to be classified. And you know, in that scenario, if someone is like also having relationships with women, like they can be bisexual, like it doesn't mean you are directly gay just because you like a man, you know.

SPEAKER_10 3:19:32

Cool, it'd be nice to speak to you. What's your name? Peter, I thank you. What's the program? Nice to see you and listen to bisexual front is the podcast that's okay.

SPEAKER_06 3:19:39

I want to thank you so much. Uh bye.

SPEAKER_02 3:19:41

So there you go. There's the views of people in uh Camden, and I have to say, all women. Uh Danielle said that no men wanted to stand and talk about it. Don't know why. That maybe said something I don't know. I think they'd heard about it. She said, you know, the way they reacted, they knew about it, but uh it seems that they didn't want to talk about it. Although, of course, it is and we've discussed this earlier on in the show a little bit, but you may have heard this as well, Tom. It is proving very popular with middle-aged women in particular. This is a bit of a taboo that's been broken in a way, because um, for for years and years and years, you you'd you'd often hear about men enjoying seeing two women together, but you never talked about women liking two men. No, it was like a a taboo. So it's nice to hear that women do like seeing two men getting on.

SPEAKER_18 3:20:28

It's funny, honestly, you say that because uh a friend of my boyfriend's um their sisters actually, their mother really she's got a real penchant for reading gay, erotic fiction. Um, and and they and both her daughters who are my boyfriend's friends have been really enjoying heated rivalry. And um, yeah, it does seem to be proving a real uh a really popular for straight women. Um funny though, that a friend of mine hasn't even heard of it. She um is a straight woman and she likes watching bisexual porn, um, men, but two men, and she's kind of been open about that for a long time. Um and and she's got Mind Now TV, uh, which is obviously what what's got what um heated rivalry on is on, and she never even heard of it. Um and I was like right up your street, you've got to watch it.

SPEAKER_02 3:21:18

So um yeah, I think it's a lot of people. What um so obviously the the the ladies we spoke to or uh Danielle spoke to in the street there were were were obviously very much into it, but they all um you know I think the point was that the the message of the fact that it's bisexual um isn't out there as a headline. Now obviously it's it's two men together, so the the the sex is all is is is is gay, I suppose, homosexual, etc. But but it isn't it isn't a drama that runs away, it runs away from being being bisexual. And apparently people were saying that in the books it it is it is referenced more. So maybe when they decide to make it into a film, it they they tempered it a bit. The Americans do tend to temper these things a bit, they're a bit bit shy of certain things, aren't they? So maybe I mean when I say Americans, actually, this is an audience, I but but what I'm saying is they probably tempered it for the American audience because they there's always this attitude the Americans are a little bit bit more conservative about things, etc. But but yeah, just in a nutshell, for people who are maybe tuning in just to this bit or whatever. Yeah, should we talk about it? What is it about? What is it about?

SPEAKER_18 3:22:30

Um so uh interesting. Actually, when you said about kind of the American audience making for the American audience, I think it was a very low budget film. Apparently, they tried to go to the big production companies and it just didn't go anywhere. And the small Canadian production company, Crave, interestingly, uh that's the name of the production company, Crave, they took it on, and it's only six episodes, which is not what you'd expect from kind of American series. They're more normally 10, 20. But so the series, um, I haven't read the books, but as far as I know, Painted Rivalry is the second book in the series about hockey and um ice hockey, and I'm presuming very much kind of gay love affairs and gay romances. The first book uh is actually the st is actually a completely separate story that features in the series. Um and essentially, Heated Rivalry is the story of two young male hockey players uh who are rivals, they're on rival teams. One is Russian, but he plays for an American team, um, and one is Canadian, and he plays for a Canadian team, and they meet. And the first two episodes, I felt you kind of follow their journey and they meet, they connect. There's obviously a sexual chemistry between them, but they kind of are pitted against each other. So they are rivals. Um, and it's heated because there's sexual tension. This sounds all very formulaic. And for the first two episodes, I I have to confess, I was I was finding myself, I was watching it for the sex, because it was the steamy sex scenes, and it's very hot. Um, and it's very realistic, I think, the sex has been sex between two men. Um, in the case of Shane Hollander, who's the Canadian character, he's he's he's never had sex with a man before at the beginning of the series. Um he's never had any kind of sexual encounter at the beginning, as far as we know, as far as we're led to believe. And um and I think it's very realistic into the things that he struggles with, he's learning about, he's nervous about, and um Ilya Rosanov, the Russian character, coaxes him along the way, but he's quite a kind of cool, distant character. He's he he's quite arrogant, he knows what he wants, he's a bit of an asshole, and um very full of himself, and there's obviously some secrets he has, some insecurities he has, and he wears a big barrier. A lot of these character tropes are things we've seen a million times before, and that's how I felt in the first two episodes. But uh and that but yeah, like I said, the sex esteemy. And in the first two episodes, you're really speeding along through the years. It starts in 2008, and you keep on seeing them encounter each other at different tournaments and different kinds of events, and sometimes they sleep together and sometimes they don't. Um, they're texting each other, and then later on in the series you settle into their relationship. Um, but then episode three follows a separate story, which is one of Shane Holland's.

SPEAKER_02 3:25:35

I didn't like I didn't like episode three. I did. I didn't like it. I wanted to I I I want I like the the two main characters, I wanted to know more about them. I was like, what's this? This felt like another completely new programme, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_18 3:25:48

But then interestingly, it also it was I mean, it's funny you say that because that was the first book. Episode three was the the story of the first book was episode three, and it's one of his teammates, and I really enjoyed that again. Really sexy, really steamy sex scenes, and two very good looking guys. Um everyone was incredibly ripped, and everyone was far too jacked and kind of not an ounce of fat on them, but that it was that kind of show.

SPEAKER_02 3:26:15

I also found I found Ilya and Hollander's characters, Shane and Ilya, they they the the chemistry they've got feels the feels there feels there's some reality there. And like you were saying about the sexual sex scenes, though there's the difficulties of you know having competitive sex for the first time, and uh Ilya's asking him, you know, are you okay? Are you okay? All those all those kind of things I think were very realistic. And that was lovely, and I I think the the chemistry they built the building up between the two of them was fantastic. Um, but then we suddenly got episode three with this these other characters who, yes, they're beautiful, they're really attractive, and all the rest of it. And there's the whole thing about him going to the to the to the store for on a regular basis and and and then pick bringing up a conversation that leads to something. But I also found it very I also found it very contrived, actually.

SPEAKER_18 3:27:06

Well, so the story of episode three, which is apparently the story of the book, is Scott Parker, who is a champion hockey player who's a bit older than Shane Hollander. He's he was on the Canadian team and he was on kind of he's on the same circuit as the other two guys. He is a regular at this coffee shopping juice bar, and he comes on his runs and he's flirting with the young man who's the juice maker and he makes him a special smoothie. And I it was kind of contrived, but again, I've been watching this kind of speed through of the love affair between the other two, and then I found out that oh, this is a new, two new hot guys who are gonna get naked and have sex. Um, and you see it coming, and okay, but then it was the interesting conflict, which I think I mean, me and my boyfriend were talking about this, how kind of we live in a bit of a bubble. Um, in we're both in in kind of very sort of quite queer-centric industries, um, with lots of friends outside of our industries as well, who are very kind of accepting of our sexuality. And I've been kind of struck over the last year how no one bats an island, whether in fact I've got a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Um, but how in other walks of life, in other worlds, it's such a big deal. And for Scott Parker, he's a hockey player, it's very masculine, it's very straight, and the idea of him being out as a gay man in public in his as a famous hockey player is just so terrifying. And it and episode three addressed that question and addressed that conflict, which is why I think I enjoyed that storyline. Again, it wasn't a conflict that I've seen that I'd not seen before. I mean, the whole coming out and I can't come out because of XYZ. I've seen that loads of times before, but I think it was quite a meaty, nice little plot, and then the the other guy going, they fall in love, and it's like, yeah, but I don't want to be a secret, but I love you, and etc. etc. etc. And then it set the groundwork for I don't want to give too many spoilers, but it set the groundwork for influencing their storyline massively, then influences Shane and Ilya's storyline later on.

SPEAKER_02 3:29:09

I think it would have worked better for me if they could have carried on having that secondary plot going on while actually still keeping us keeping the attention of us on the other two that they were doing other things and they were still around. But there's a whole load of the program, you don't see them at all. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_18 3:29:27

Yeah, they could have I suppose they could have put both stories alongside each other throughout the series rather than most of it on Ilion Chain and then one episode on those two, um, which would have been a way of dealing. But I I I did enjoy that episode for yeah, the reasons I gave, I thought it had quite an interesting conflict that was kind of like frustrating and like invested in it, and it ends that it ends unundealt with, but then it is dealt with later on in the series.

SPEAKER_02 3:29:55

Um for anybody, anybody watching anybody what anybody watching it up to this point generally, they would think that it was generally about guys getting it on and yeah, um homosexuality or whatever. But the great the interesting thing about this series is it does not shy away from the fact, it doesn't say the word, I think it does later on, actually. I think um it's again it says but what I'm saying is it doesn't shy away from the fact that it's clear that Ilya uh likes both men and women, and that is tackled as an issue throughout certainly the last sort of few episodes, it's there, it's it's a very much part of it, really. So, in that sense, I think we've you know we've had Heartstopper, which does tackle it directly in a way, but um you know, but but in a way that I mean we've talked about Heartstopper a lot.

SPEAKER_18 3:30:47

I think that tackles it in a way that's a little bit heavy-handed and on the nose, and this is a bit more real.

SPEAKER_02 3:30:52

Yes, it is more real, absolutely. So, what I'm saying is all credit to them. Uh, they've done a fantastic job, I think. Because I think he does convey, I think Ilya conveys it very well. And the fact that it's not, yes, for some people it is very 50-50, and they want maybe maybe people want to have sex with men and women all the time or whatever. But in this instance, you could see that Ilya is very, you know, he makes a choice, doesn't he? He talks about the fact that you know, yeah, he's got all these women he fancies, but you know what's the what's they say, something along this? There's this guy with freckles, he's a problem, you know, he's there all the time and not gonna go away. It's very sweet, it's very sweetly done, actually.

SPEAKER_18 3:31:27

It's um it's uh yeah, because he's got all these beautiful women who are flocking after him because he's famous, he's a famous hockey player, and and he doesn't want any of them apart from this one problem who's this freckled guy who's really boring and sensible. And yeah, that that that towards the ending of it, it's quite it is quite sweet. He becomes a lot more emotionally available and one of his tropes that he has in the throat is he's very unavailable emotionally, uh Ilya, and um and almost you think that Shane's the the opposite. But there is an interesting point actually, speaking of the bisexuality element, that there is um you there's a point where you think maybe Shane's gonna go down that route as well, and then it ends up in a there's there's a beautiful, beautiful scene, I thought, between Shane and the woman who you thought was kind of gonna be like a bisexual storyline for him, um, of sort of a coming out storyline, and it was really emotional. But there's uh a bit later on where he's like to Ilya, I think I might be gay. And this is what like quite late in the series, and we've been watching countless steamy sex scenes between these guys. And Ilya goes, No, you think so? Um Jane goes, Shut up, you arsehole. Like, you're not and then he says, You're not gay, again to the guy who he's been jagging constantly. It's like, no, not completely. And it's like, yeah, okay, well, that's kind of an interesting way of putting it. I quite like that way of putting it again. Ilya's like, yeah, I'm not gay because I do sleep with women, but I am a bit gay. They don't use the word bisexual. And I actually quite like the fact that they didn't, to be honest, they didn't put a label, they were like, Yeah, I like women, I like men. Why, why make it a big thing? And they never made it a big thing.

SPEAKER_02 3:33:12

But the other thing about it is what's interesting about Ilya's character is you know, he is the one really, in a way, who's got lots of issues because of his obviously Boom Russia, but also the the women's situation. He's got lots of things to hide in a way, more than the other ones is in a way, although they both have situations, issues because of the fact they're uh famous hockey players and you can't be open about your sexuality. But the interesting thing is that at the end of it all, he is very much the one in control, the one who's putting his arm round Hollander when he's with the his parents at the end. You know, I mean, he's the one leading the way in a way. He's very he he seems to be very much at one with his sexuality, and he's but he's very bisexual, but he he's happy with it, and he seems to be the strongest one. I think that's quite nice, actually.

SPEAKER_18 3:33:58

He's very confident in who he who he is and his sexuality. Interestingly, though, like oversee, I don't think you can just go either way when you're bisexual. You kind of fall for who you fall for, but he's from a world where kind of it's a very straight-leaning world and it's Russia, and it's kind of his family and sort of police and everything like that. So the the straight side of him he can be very open about, and the gay side of him he can't be, but he just doesn't really care. He's he he I I think he's a bit of a character who gives a big fuck you up to the world and anyone who makes him or expects him to do exactly what he wants to do, to not do exactly what he wants to do, and I think that's Ilya's trait of like, I am who I am and fuck you if you don't like it. Whereas Shane's character is not like that at all. Shane's very concerned about what the world, how how the world perceives him. So I think that's interesting to know that the character who's who's less who's who doesn't give a shit is the one who is bisexual.

SPEAKER_02 3:34:57

So do you think have we got our first our first game uh first bisexual role model here, Tom? Do you think? In terms of a character.

SPEAKER_18 3:35:04

You know what? You know what? I didn't uh my boyfriend massively is a massive, has a massive crash, massive fan of Pedro Pascal. And I was like, I kind of couldn't remember I I suppose I watched all of Game of Thrones, and he was like, and and I was like, I forgot Pedro Pascal's um romance and love story, like story in that. And he was like, come on, he's a by-icon. And Pedro Pascal in Game of Thrones, he had a massive bisexual storyline, and he was having sex with men, and his wife was kind of okay with it and enjoying it, and he went off with male sex workers in that series. So I don't know, I think Pedro Pascal is a bisexual icon. I'm not going to speculate over the actor's sexuality, but characters he has played. Um, I think he has actually led the way. I know we're not talking about Game of Thrones right now, but in terms of a first by icon, I think we've had I think I think we should put Pedro Pascal in Game of Thrones quite high up that pedestal. Um yeah, I think he is a good bisexual kind of role model. At the same time, he is a bit of an arsehole. Which I love. I mean I love the fact that he's a I love the fact he's an arsehole.

SPEAKER_02 3:36:12

I think he I don't think he personally I don't think he is an arsehole. I think he's cheeky.

SPEAKER_18 3:36:16

I think yeah, he he's he's he's he's a bit sort of misunderstood, he's got issues, yeah. Um but I like I like his character. Heartstopper was far too squeaky clean for me. Um, though this is um I do like his character, yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:36:31

Fantastic. Well, uh just going back to what Danielle did in the in Camden, speaking to people about what how they perceived it, and I know you're talking about um Heartstopper was much more on your nose, and and the main characters always saying, I'm bi, you know, or I'm bi, not gay, and whatever he's always making the point, which I do get, and I think it has to be said to an extent. But um, and I agree with you, I think we it it's lovely to get to a point whereby you don't have to say things and people know that something's bisexual without literally using the word necessarily. I understand all that. Um, but it isn't it interesting that um the general perception of the bisexuality, even though it's got bisexuality written all over it, doesn't necessarily get through. A loose woman was on the other day, and they were talking about it, and it was being talked about as a gay drama, a gay romance. Bisexuality wasn't there at all. So it gets flattened. Do you know what I mean? It's often flattened. I think that's a issue.

SPEAKER_18 3:37:29

I'm not surprised though, and I'm not surprised actually from an offended or s or sceptical point of view, because it is a gay romance, it's not a bisexual romance. There's no um male-female love story in it at all. Um, it is only between two men. Um and the fact that one of them also likes women and has casual, meaningless sex with women, and in one case, sex with a with a female friend who's obviously it means something, but it's not the same thing. Uh, I think the fact that Ilya Rosanov is is bisexual is a detail in the story, but it is not the story. So I think it is a gay romance, um, featuring bisexuality as a theme. I think if you had another third character who was a woman who was vying for Ilya's affections, or if you had another teammate and their love story with a woman, then you could call it a bisexual romance. But it's not a bisexual romance. So I'm not I don't blame people for not thinking about the bisexuality or not putting a head stage.

SPEAKER_02 3:38:37

I think that's still I think that's a form, I think I think that's just a form of erasure, though, in a way, because it's like you know, there are people out there who have different relationships with different people, so there are there are men who might be having gay men who might be having relationships with two men, there are straight people who are having relationships with different people or whatever, you know what I mean? So I suppose what I'm trying to say is I just think that without um with with making everything literally about who you're having sex with at that particular point. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_18 3:39:08

So it's gay or it's straight or it's I think it's not that though. I don't think it's about because if it was about who he was having sex who they were having sex with, then the bisexuality would be more. But who are they falling in love with? Who's the who's the emotional story centered around? It's centered around two men. And the fact that Ilya's shagging women in who he meets in clubs or shagging female fans and shagging his Russian friend, I can't remember her name, and who's the one with the visa pop potential, like that is part of his storyline, but is not the emotional center of the story. So I don't think and I mean I remember thinking with Heartstropper kind of I would have liked a a a female character to become a threat for um Joe Locke's character, because that could have drummed home if you're gonna tell a bisexual story, tell a bisexual story. But it's not but Heartstropp is not a bisexual story. Bisexual story either. It's a gay story. But the character's bisexual and they make a big they make much of that. But if you're gonna draw my home bisexuality as a theme, then make bisexuality part of the storyline.

SPEAKER_02 3:40:13

Well, but the Heartstopper makes the thing about the bisexuality. You're right, absolutely. But it's not part of the story. But the presentation of it, the media doesn't make any mention of it. It's all about being gay. There's very little mention about being bisexual. And it's the same with this. And I think I suppose I'm just saying is that I think the discourse needs to get a bit deeper that people understand that because I still think loads of people out there don't they do not think that that somebody is going to be bisexual. You you you you have to go out of your way to for people, you know. I often I've I still have it now, even though I do bisexual brunch. I'll mention to people I'm bisexual, and that there's loads of questions. They they just cannot work it out. They can't understand it. And I think that's uh an issue we've still got. And I think and it and I think it's a problem for all the thousands of people who listen to us who are bi, by men and by women, uh, in being taken seriously, really. You know, there are people out there that are having relationships and uh and they happen to be straight off gay-facing relationships, but people can't understand the fact that they happen to be bi as well. But anyway, you know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_18 3:41:23

But I think what's wonderful about um heated rivalry is that it as a as a viewer, you are watching two characters, specifically one character who is bisexual and it normalizes it. And the fact that this show has so many straight female fans and and it has been such a hit for that, means that this show is going to go some way into normalizing bisexuality. I think the talk about it in the media and neglecting to mention the bisexuality in its promotion, I don't really see as that much of a surprise, but I also don't see it as much of a problem because if anything, it might put people off. I mean, it shouldn't do, but it might put those women off. But actually, they're watching it because they want to watch some steamy gay sex, which is what they're getting. They're not getting straight sex, they're not getting lesbian sex, they're getting two men having sex a lot in every episode, and they're loving it, and one of them is bisexual, and they explore that, and I think it does a really good job of doing that.

SPEAKER_02 3:42:25

And I think if we made more of a thing about it, I'm not sure if it would be conducive to but the other thing is though, the other thing is that we keep seeing these, we've seen Heartstopper now, we've seen uh this now, these two big ones that have uh have appeared, really, the ones that have had most coverage, I think, in a way, um, in terms of hint either tackling bisexuality or hinting at it in different ways. Um, and uh what we now need to see is um a real reality of of somebody who's a bisexual who is enjoying themselves in different ways, who's maybe struggling a bit about uh dealing with women, dealing with men, you know, where do I go? What what you know have I got we we talked about it in the show recently actually, where uh bi men talk about having having to have two sort of personalities in a way, you one personality when they're dealing with men, one personality dealing with women, all these kind of things. We need to start looking at that because I think the the issue with this is that you're probably gonna get a lot of gay men in particular saying, Well, look at the you know, at the end of the day, you know, they're they're they're either they're either gay or straight, really. And actually, bisexuality is just that uh trip on the way to being to being gay, you know what I mean. Look after all earlier and just the sponsored name are gay, you know, after it.

SPEAKER_18 3:43:39

Yeah, the couple that you invest in. And um, I mean, I was going as to do ashamed as, well, yes, I've got just the uh script that some TV production company need to make if we're gonna explore that, because uh I've got actually more than one script that explores bisexuality in a similar way to the way you described. But on the same on the whole thing of like, oh, if you're bisexual, it's just a journey towards being gay. Interestingly, um we've talked before about Bridgetton, and the third series of Bridgetton really explored, it really went some way into exploring Benedict Bridgetton's that he was the second son, his bisexuality, he entered into a sort of polyamorous kind of sexual thing with uh two with a man and a woman who they none of them were particularly religious uh religious, romantically engaged with, but they had a lot of fun together, um, individually uh as as twos and as a three. Um, and the third series that was one of the storylines of the third series that I enjoyed the most in Bridgetton. But um the nature of Bridgetton and the nature of the formula is that each series follows the romance of one of the Bridgerton family members, and it is going to be, I think later on we're gonna have a lesbian one, um, which is a deviation from the books, uh, but it is going to be a heterosexual relationship, and it is going to end in marriage. That is kind of how um Bridgetton works because it's a Regency era thing and it's the marriage market, it's the tarn, it's the London season, the debutance. But in Bridget in this case, you've got a character who was kind of starting to explore his journey with men, and then suddenly we're on his series, and we're like, okay, so now we're gonna have a heterosexual romance because that is how it works. But it started the series with him snogging a man at a party, and then he goes to a ball, his mother's ball, and sees a woman who captivates him. I mean, it it's very actually this series is very Cinderella. I mean, it is literally part of the plot is Cinderella. Um, and he is kind of a world of romance with a woman, and I'm waiting to see whether they come back to the bisexuality, but this and the showrunner of um of Bridgeton did actually say that this was an example of kind of like, well, this is a bisexual man whose sort of big romance is with a woman, and it's not like the journey of, oh, he was with women and now he's with men. It's actually he was with women, he's enjoyed men, and he's ending up with a woman. So it's actually having the opposite flip of that kind of bisexual men can go with women, is what this story is. Which from what I read, Jess Brannell, the showrunner, was trying to convey in this storyline was that it's that this is a bisexual man who's chosen a woman. Um, and it's that's the that is so it's not shining off his now. I I would have liked them to have made a little bit more of Benedict's bisexuality, and I don't know whether they will now. Um it probably will come up because I don't think they'll leave us hanging too much. But um it would be nice if they didn't focus on Bridgetton in the fourth series. Oh, Benedict in the fourth series, and they gave him another little bisexual subplot, and then in the fifth series they had his proper his story, but um yeah, so I think they've done the opposite in Bridgerton to the the the gay relationship and heated rivalry.

SPEAKER_02 3:47:04

Yeah, I mean there are so many untapped stories out there. We've talked about them as many times before, you know. Thinking about all the interviews I've done with people over the last six years, there are so many guys who you chat to who are emotionally attached to women, but just eat cock every now and again. I know it sounds really crude to say that, but there are a lot of people in that category actually, and that is not conveyed, you don't get any of that talked about really. You know, the fact that there's an emotional attachment for some to one, and there's and there's sexual attachment the other way, and it happens the other way around. I mean, I think of myself as being much more emotionally attached to men, but still being sexually attached to women, and so you know what I mean. We we don't none of that is it's it's so colourful, there's so many different varieties of bisexuality.

SPEAKER_18 3:47:51

And I think it's interesting because so you've got obviously these two shows that kind of show the two opposite ends, and yeah, essentially, is Benedict someone who just likes a bit of cock and he's actually more romantically inclined towards women, is Ilya the other way around. He likes a bit of Fanny, but he's more romantically um connected with men. Or actually, is Ilya just a sexual being and the the he's romantically inclined towards um Shane Hollander? And it's not about men and women, it's about that particular man. Um and I think that's an interesting look at it too, because I think I I often wonder, I'm s I'm I'm skeptical of people who say, like, I'm sexually inclined to one and romantically inclined to another. I think it's just safe to say that because you're not gonna end up if people who um who say, Oh, I I I I like sex with men, but I'm remote romantically attached to women, I'm thinking, well, maybe it's safe to say that because you then feel confident that you're not gonna marry a man, because God forbid, uh, you can just have a bit of fun and not take it too seriously, and you're not taking that aspect of your sexuality too seriously. Um, and I uh yeah, it's it's it's safer that way, I think, when people say that. But also that might genuinely be a preference.

SPEAKER_02 3:49:06

Um, but yeah, I mean we've we've heard them all over the years on the show.

SPEAKER_18 3:49:11

We should we we should we should we change all the names and turn it into a massive because when I say I'm skeptical about that, I'm aware that I'm saying I'm skeptical of um lots of the things that the listeners, listeners, and people who come to the show have have said. But yeah, that's that's my well I'll tell you what.

SPEAKER_02 3:49:28

I'll tell you what I'm always skeptical of, and I have said it on the show actually a couple times, is when people come on often and they talk, they they're very, very focused on having their. I mean, I'm in a monogamous relationship. I'm bisexual, and you know I can be monogamous, and I'm monogamous, and I don't need sex with other people. I just need to need to underline that I'm bisexual. I'm not having sex with anybody else, but I'm I'm bisexual. I'm often skeptical of that because I feel as though actually need to be told. They would like to enjoy themselves a bit more.

SPEAKER_18 3:49:55

You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially if you've never explored that aspect, which I think would be interesting. I mean, I've had lovely experiences with women, and now I'm at the point where like, well, I I don't want to be with a woman right now because otherwise that would mean that my relationship, uh, my current relationship with my boys would would be suffering or or not not existing anymore. Well, you've been there. If I had never been with women, I'd be like, oh, what's it like? I want to know what that's like, and vice versa. Um I would feel the same way. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 3:50:28

But talking about uh moving on from Bridgerton and rivalry for a second, then uh before we before we finish, um that there is this issue of we're talking about bisexuality being being either being flattened or misinterpreted or misrepresented. And this is why I think we need more stuff really, because I think I think a lot of the the tropes that people have, the myths that people have about bisexuality are still out there. So I would I I gather it's been on a while now, but it's being shown on BBC 3 at the moment. The the disc series trying. And the other day I I noticed one comment by one of the women who have a quip about women under 30, and said, Women under 30 don't do anything except have juice and tell people they're bisexual. So, in other words, it's trying to suggest that women, un young women, um basically play with the idea of bisexuality for either for men or whatever it may be, and it's not real. So that's one thing. And then um on Coronation Street the other day, which they finally mentioned the word bisexual about a guy who is clearly bisexual because he's having sex with men and women, um, there was a group of women talking about him and said, Well, you know, he's he's you can't trust him, he's bisexual, you know. Around those that kind of sentiment. So, in other words, he's you can't trust him because he's gonna go off with a bloke. So um, those kind of myths, which to be fair, you would never get that kind of thing being said about somebody gay anymore, something really negative about somebody gay in that way. Do you know what I mean? Oh, gay people are often, you know, middle-aged gay men are always gonna go with young gay men or whatever. Do you know what I mean? Which you did get at one time, you get that attitude was there. You never get that, but we we're still at that situation, aren't we, with bisexuality where it's it's joked about in a not particularly nice way sometimes.

SPEAKER_18 3:52:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I I haven't um I haven't, I I actually saw Tiger a while ago and I can't remember that line. But yes, I suppose you do you do get that, I suppose. And I've often heard I heard someone say, I'm not gonna mention names, um, I'm gonna call them Jack and Alfie. Um is Jack um gay? Do you think no he's straight? Or maybe he's bi, or do you think he's bi in the same way as Alfie's bi? And because Alfie is clearly gay, um that kind of thing. And I found that funny because it's like, oh yeah, because I think you're probably right that there is that difference between people who use bias a kind of blanket and people who are genuinely bi. Um that's yeah, that's just my kind of response to various jokes like that.

SPEAKER_02 3:53:00

Well, listen, Tom. It's been great to talk as always. Next time we will talk about your journey in a gay-facing relationship over the past year. Um we'll get into some depth and talk about where it's taken you because obviously it's been a completely new life for you. Um, I mean, when did you when did we first get together and have it have a chat? Was that two years, two, two, three years ago?

SPEAKER_18 3:53:23

Well, the episode came out while I was in South Africa three years ago, so it was just three years ago.

SPEAKER_02 3:53:29

So this is about three years has been a bit of a whirlwind, hasn't it? A bit of a whirlwind.

SPEAKER_18 3:53:33

It has, and yeah, so I suppose I was uh it was it was just uh it was towards the end of the pandemic that I kind of acknowledged my bisexuality and started sort of having sex with men and exploring that side of myself.

SPEAKER_02 3:53:46

So yeah, it's been quite a quite a journey. Fantastic. We'll talk to you again very soon. Thanks, Tom. Hey, thank you. Okay, well, that's bisexual brunch for this week.

SPEAKER_12 3:53:59

If you've got any comments, thoughts, musings, do get in touch with us at bisexual brunch on Twitter. Bye for now.

SPEAKER_02 3:54:13

So Laura, what's um what what have you got planned? How's things going with your book?

SPEAKER_01 3:54:19

Yeah, they're going well. Um, I feel like I had a mad couple of months um that came out in September, and then the few months after that were a lot of different events and just yeah, promoting it. And then things got quiet over Christmas and I got to have a little bit of a rest, which was which was nice. Um, but I'm hoping to do more events in the coming year. I have currently applied for some funding to hopefully be able to bring some book events to different LGBT youth groups across the UK. So I'm really hoping that that gets granted because I'd really love to be able to go in and do some workshops with young people and for them to have that kind of like specifically buy space. Um, but yeah, while I'm waiting for the outcome of that, it's just been relatively quiet, which is quite nice after all of the yeah, last year was very hectic, and I feel like I should do a break.

SPEAKER_02 3:55:08

Fantastic. Well, I think this year, Lewis, we should all try and team up, shouldn't we, in the different things we're doing and try and make some more we we take we make noise on bisexual brunch. Lewis is on programmes all the time. Bisexual brunch gets or bisexuality gets mentioned here and there. But I think we need to get together and try and make some concerted noise. After the stats we talked about earlier on, I think we we've got a duty to do that, really.

SPEAKER_13 3:55:32

We are, and if anyone wants to hear more of Laura and I talking, uh they should check out, as I said last year, I start I've started, I'm really trying to commit some time to it, the Bispective YouTube channel. Um, Laura and I recorded an interview and I've still not edited it because I just have struggled so much. But doing this today has reminded me that I need to do that. So I will get that out in the next few weeks, and I'm gonna keep posting because obviously, you know, what we do here is discussion, but what I want to do is just some videos to camera about different aspects of bisexuality. And the idea of the YouTube channel is it's basically supposed to be all of the things that the mainstream media wouldn't cover. So the things that I pitched to editors and they've said, nah, who cares? That it's like, right, well, I'll just make a video about it to camera. So I um people can check that out, bispective on YouTube. There are videos up there now, but I'm gonna try and commit to doing one a week.

SPEAKER_01 3:56:29

Also, as we were talking earlier about a need for more training as well. If anybody would like to have more training, you can contact me. Um, and also book events. If you if my book sounds like something that would be interesting, particularly if you work with young people, if you're a school or something, um, just get in touch because I'm always really happy to come and talk to people about buy stuff um and my book and all of that, all of that jazz.

SPEAKER_02 3:56:52

Fantastic. Well, let's end there then with your details of how people can get into you. Just remind everyone.

SPEAKER_01 3:56:58

So I am on social media at my body and yours, and my website is www.mybodyandyours.com, and there's loads of information about training and work I do on my book and everything like that.

SPEAKER_02 3:57:10

Fantastic. And as I've been talking to you, I've been drinking out of a bottle here. It's not a bottle of spirits or anything, it's it's medicine. My throat getting worse. I've been talking to you for the last god knows how many hours. So thanks, guys. See you soon.

SPEAKER_03 3:57:24

This programme is an MIM production. Remember to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

SPEAKER_02 3:57:30

And don't forget, if you'd like to help towards the financing of bisexual brunch, you can always send us a donation. Either a regular one or just a one off. Go to buymeacoffee.com forward slash info fifty-nine.