Canada to Ban Vape Flavors, Necessary or Nanny State?

Maria Papaioannoy is a vaping champion who started her vaping advocacy in 2010 as an alternative to smoking. In 2013 she started one of Canada's first vape shops. She has led protests against the Federal and Provincial Governments to provide a voice for Vapers on policy matters. For over a decade she has leveraged her expertise to address legislative bodies. She remains a steadfast advocate for the right to choose one's preferred method of nicotine consumption, reflecting a belief in the importance of personal choice in health and well being. 

At the time of this episode her petition to reverse the proposed regulations on banning flavoured vape products has almost 33,000 signatures. 

Her organization Rights 4 Vapers can be found at rights4vapers.com and she encourages people to fill out a letter to send to their Member of Parliament.

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• 9:54 (Cont.) Canada to Ban Vape Flavors, Necessary or Nanny State?

Transcript

[00:01] Russell: All right. And we're back. Russell here with the canadian conservative podcast. And today on the show, I have Maria P. And I say p for the last name because I tried to memorize it and, and I failed. And I already failed on another live stream to say someone's last name. So I don't want to mess that up. And today we're going to be here to talk about the flavor vaping ban that the government is proposing. Is it a nanny state thing? Is it for safety? We need to think about the children. One of the things I want to plug right away as we start the show is that Maria is encouraging people that support vaping to go to rights four as the number four, not f o r. Vapors.com. Maria, welcome to the show.

[00:49] Maria: Hey, Russell, thanks for having me. This is like, so exciting. I've never been on one of these things that's like, well, I have been, but not like, never a conservative podcast.

[00:59] Russell: So I'm pretty excited and definitely, and, you know, we talked briefly about the show and, you know, it's a conservative podcast, but, you know, I'm very respectful of different stances, different points of view. And as we get started here, I'd like, just tell us a little bit about yourself.

[01:16] Maria: Well, my name is Maria Papaya Wadu, and I added Duik because I got married to a guy with four letters. So I figured what's the difference between eleven and 15? Whatever. So I love my husband, so I have his name there. I started vaping. I started smoking when I was 14. I'm 52 now. I quit at 39 because of vaping. I've been doing it since 2010, so maybe 14 years. Oh, so I quit at 48. I mean, 38. Sorry, I'm really bad at math. And back in 2013, my husband and I opened one of the very first vape shops in Canada. And over the years, I have been advocating, and it all started because being in Toronto, there was by law that came through. And the bylaw was really ridiculous. It was, they were going to ban vaping on all city owned properties where city employees worked, but they would still allow smoking. And it didn't make any sense to me. And then I went to the hearing, and then we had all these keys kids come in and start singing, like, songs about dead grandparents from smoking. And I was like, what? And then I was listening to the counselors ask another vape shop owner what their profit margins were, not asking how many Torontonians quit. So I got really upset and I went home and I did what anybody else in 2014 would do living in Toronto, you call Rob Ford. For those of you that don't know, that was our mayor at the time and may rest in peace. And so I called Rob Ford and I told, and he called me back. So we had this like half hour conversation. He told me about his brother, who happens to be the premier of Ontario. He wanted him to stop smoking. He wanted his wife to stop smoking. Believe it or not, everything that Rob did, he never smoked. And so he said he was going to vote it down and he kept his word. And that was my first time advocating and the politician kept his word. So from there, I just continued to advocate. I would insert myself in opportunities and use my skill set. I'm really good at organizing things, so I really like, worked hard and I just kept doing it. Anytime anyone said I'm doing it wrong, I just said, well, we've never had vaping before. There is no wrong way of doing it. So we've moved forward and here we are fighting another waiver ban. And we've done this before. And the only way we can fight is by being a collective, singular voice. And that's by going to rightsforvapers.com, sending a letter. And if you work at a vape shop, you choose. I work at a vape shop. If you own a vape shop, choose your own a vape shop. If you, if you've never smoked, you could choose that. If you went from smoking to vaping, you can choose that. Or if you're just someone who wants to support access to someone's choice on how to quit smoking, you have that choice too. So this is where we're at. I'm exhausted, but we're still going, you know.

[04:18] Russell: Well, you're out on the streets every day. Right now.

[04:21] Maria: I feel like it doesn't sound very nice when you say it that way.

[04:28] Russell: You're advocating for vapors every day.

[04:34] Maria: So we are in Ottawa, we had a booth and it was so cold. Like we were, I was, we were on Spark street and in that area by Parliament Hill, really talking to staffers and talking to people and, you know, giving everybody all access to the flyer and the QR code and all that kind of thing. And then we, we set up a tent and we were there and we were right in front of parliament. We were right next door to JT's office. It was right. Anyways, if anybody's ever planning on doing something and advocating or protesting, go to the corner of Metcalfe and Wellington. That's 90 Wellington street. We set up a tent and you could see everybody coming through. We had, you know, there's 330, what? 330 politicians. Two showed up. Hey, that's two more that we wouldn't have. And we got a lot of conversations going. And then again on the street, we did it in Toronto last week. We have a big rally. So if you're anywhere near Ajax, Ontario, we have blocked off the street in front of minister Holland's office. And we are serving up popcorn because you know what? That's the only popcorn you'll get from vaping. And I just found out today we're ordering pizzas and we are going to rally. We are going to celebrate that we are smoke free and we are going to show him. He may not want to talk to us, but I always remind people we have one mouth and two ears. He can't close his ears, but he can always close his mouth.

[06:10] Russell: Do you think he would close his mouth? Yeah.

[06:14] Maria: You know, no, neither will I. So I think it's interesting because, you know, this is a man who, I don't know if you saw his scrum in March, I think it was like March 22, he was talking about flavors and saying that, like all the deaths and illnesses, which I did see that, but in part of it he said, and I'm like, sort of paraphrasing, the big bad tobacco companies can't hide from me. I am not afraid of you. I will go to the depths and the deep, dark corners to get you. You will see me there. Yet he's afraid to talk to people who vape.

[06:55] Russell: And, you know, when we're talking about vaping and the regulation that they want to bring in by banning flavored vapes, it comes back to the idea that miners are going to access flavored vapes. What kind is this whole we need to save the children type of argument? But where do you think that argument falls flat?

[07:16] Maria: I think we have to look at what we're saving the children. You know what? Saving the children is great sloganeering. I mean, obviously, who doesn't want to save a child? A child's drowning. We're going to save that child. When we look at the statistics, kids are accessing alcohol and cannabis at higher rates than they are vaping products. So if we're truly. And we know that cannabis. Well, we don't know much about cannabis, but we know that alcohol causes cancer. We know that nicotine does not cause cancer. It is the delivery method and it's combustion. And if someone wants to come at me right now for saying that, go ahead. Infoightsforvapers.com at least send me an email message and we can go back and forth. Both. All three products are available in multiple flavors, but we're focusing on nicotine because we have stigmatized people who smoke.

[08:11] Russell: Oh, yeah.

[08:12] Maria: It is illegal. Illegal to sell a vaping product to a minor. How about we go after the people who sell those products? How about we increase the fines? I don't know if anybody watching right now, but just so you know, you can look this up. I might be a little bit off on the jail time, but if you sell a product with the name cotton candy, you will get, I think it's either a 50 or $500,000 fine in 18 months in a federal prison. 18 months in prison for selling a flavor called cotton candy. If you sell a flavored product of cotton candy to a minor, the fine that will be added to that is $3,000. So we're trying to save the children, but we're not actually punishing anyone who's giving vaping products to a child. Makes no sense.

[09:05] Russell: Do you think it's just a mismatch in the messaging or is it, is it lobbyism or what do you think it is that's making them come out with this type of messaging?

[09:18] Maria: Well, that's more NGO's and Mark Holland, Health Canada doesn't have a similar message. Health Canada has been really consistent about finding the right balance. We just haven't found that balance. We do know that stricter regulations create a black market, and we can see that in provinces like BC and especially out on the east coast, where almost every single province other than Newfoundland have flavor bands. What we can see in Quebec, that black market is increasing. So I don't know about you, but I mean, I don't think that someone that sells a black market product is actually looking for id.

[10:02] Russell: Probably not, no.

[10:03] Maria: And I don't think they're going to pay any excise tax on the product. Like, it's so easy to get vaping products. Here's the thing. I'm every single person that vapes in this country, if this ban goes through, you're still going to have access to products. You can order online. You can order those ways. You might get stuff stopped at the border. But you know what you're not going to know. You're not going to know how it was made. You're not going to know if there were checks done. You won't be able to trust the source that you're getting it from. So you're going to put yourself at risk. You can try making your own flavors again. Starts getting a little bit difficult. So why not send a letter? It takes five minutes. And, you know, we're already 30,000. That's 30,000 Canadians that have sent a letter. Writesforvapers.com. It takes just minutes and it's all generated. You pick your opinions, like things that resonate with you, and a letter is generated at the end for you.

[11:03] Russell: That's awesome. Now, is there any political parties right now that actually support vaping?

[11:10] Maria: No, there will never. There is not a political. Oh, well, I mean, the Ontario Conservative Party supports us. However, that being said, federal level. No, there are mp's that do support their constituents. The problem is, is that we're not having these mp's speak up and out and those. And as I'm learning, because these are things that I've just started to learn, I should have learned about government when I was much younger. But, you know, there's a whip, and that whip is literal. They whip them into shape. You can't really speak out against your party, no matter how unethical it is. So we're trying to give opportunities to show the fallacy, the misinformation, the, you know, Mark Hollins, Mark Holland should have removed himself from this file because of his history and his ties to NGO's, non government organizations.

[12:03] Russell: And that definitely seems like it's a bit of a conflict of interest. Yeah, it is a conflict of interest. One of the things I kind of mentioned before on twitter, and I kind of hold this belief myself. Nicotine and people who smoke, people who vape. That's the last group you're allowed to discriminate against.

[12:28] Maria: I do believe this. It's not the last room. Depends where you are, but government wise, at the government level and the not NGO level, and within the drug strategy, because we do have a national drug strategy in this country, we are the last addiction that is treated with stigmatizing language. There was a moment, it was fluttering, fluttering, fluttering. I don't know. I can't say the word. There was a moment when a minister of addictions and mental health, Carolyn Bennett, changed the language. So for decades upon decades, people who smoked referred to as smokers. However, she matched the language with the drug strategy. And I know, and now it's people who smoke. And I know for some people, they won't understand or they might not understand what the big deal is. However, if we have a strategy for drugs in this country, every drug should be part of that strategy. So referring to people who use substances and people who smoke. It matches up the language. And that was like, to me, it made my heart sing because I felt like we were being listened to. And I'm like, what's next? What's next in that drug strategy? We come with compassion. Mark Holland has no compassion for people who smoke. Minister Sars Sachs, she's like completely Mia. She doesn't care. She hasn't shown that she cares. There's no compassion in any of our language. The other thing is bringing in the lived experience. When creating regulations, you, you speak to the people using. That was happening with Health Canada. There was an organization called Vapors for Smoke Free Canada, led by the marvelous Marian Burt. She's just absolutely, absolutely incredible. Someone to learn about advocating from her. And Janine Timmons, you'll see her on Twitter. And Dave Ball, they met with Health Canada on a regular basis, gave them feedback about the website, and you saw these changes happening. Then Mark Holland shows up and what do we have? We have an asshole. I can't. Like, he just freaks me out. He just completely freaks me out.

[14:41] Russell: Has he ever responded? Before the show, we discussed briefly about petitions that had been put forth in the government, and you had said that there was a petition that got about 18,000 signatures. Have the Liberals or mark Holland ever responded to any petition that's been forwarded?

[15:02] Maria: Well, this is the funny thing, is that my MP, Philip Lawrence, actually, before the last election in 2021, we had a petition from Tom Kimniak, a conservative MP out in Calgary. He started it for us, but government dissolved, so the petition dissolved. So we started that back up with MP Lawrence, who is out from where I am, Northumberland county in Ontario. And he put forth the petition. And on World Vape Day in 2022, which is May 30, he read that he was to read that petition on the floor, and the government did not respond. However, a couple of months later, and this is a petition not to ban flavors. A couple of months later, with less than 1000 signatures, a liberal MP, I think it was, Rhoda, put forth a petition to support the banning of flavors. And the Liberals responded. So, I mean, they can pick and choose what they do, I guess. You don't have to respond. However, when you don't respond to 17,000 Canadians and you respond to 800, it starts to tell you who you care about in this country. And when we're going back to talking about stigmatization and treating people like crap, they continue to do it. They look at us like a cash cow.

[16:19] Russell: Yeah, it's kind of crazy to me. 18,000 people that's 18,000 constituents. That's 18,000 Canadians. That's 18,000 potential votes that are just simply being ignored. And that's not a small number. You know, Canadians, I would say generally in the states, people tend to be a lot more politically active. Canada, people can be a little bit asleep at the wheel sometimes. So 18,000 people willing to even put, you know, their name onto a petition, that's. That's pretty significant.

[16:49] Maria: I want to point out something, too. All 18,000 people had to. When you do a petition with the government, you have to go through their site, you have to confirm. You have to wait for the confirmation email and hit I confirm and then go back. So it's a. It's a two step verification process. So they. They made a huge effort.

[17:10] Russell: Yeah. It's not just, okay, I sign this and disappear and no worries anymore. There's actually, you know, they have to actually go back and do another step, and. And that shows an extra level of commitment within itself.

[17:22] Maria: Yeah. And I also feel that because of the space that we're advocating in, because. Because when we went. When I smoked, I felt the stigmatization. I felt dirty. I felt like I had to be hidden, and I couldn't speak up. And again, I'm old enough to have gone through multiple regulations as someone who smoked, to see how. How much shame kept piling up and piling up. For 18,000 people to speak up is huge. It's huge. And I don't think they expected it. So a little bit of a history. In 2017. 2017, we started. Sorry, 2018. 2019, we started postcard campaign, and we wrote these postcards, and 23,000 postcards were mailed to Health Canada saying that we don't want a flavor ban. And what Health Canada did was when they did their submit, when they talked about this is actually was the worst and best thing that happened at the time. When they talked, after they talked about the flavor ban, they had to do this sort of like, what we learned, what we heard, what we saw. They said that we got 23,000 postcards all disagreeing with the flavor ban, but we're going to count them as one. So when they did the math, it seemed that 73% of Canadians were for or like 85% of Canadians were for the flavor ban, where in real reality, that number was closer to 97% of Canadians were against the flavor ban. So we kept fighting on that, and that gave us ammunition. And then in 2021, right before the election, the flavor ban came up. 20,000 Canadians sent a letter in a submission to a regulatory process and said, we don't want this flavor ban. And then nothing. Dead silence. Health Canada. Actually, no. Health Canada started engaging more with Canadians. They started creating a consumers advisory group. They learned from that. The path started happening of let's have more robust regulation, better regulations around vaping. Let us include it in our process. Because what they saw was when vaping became legal in this country in 2018, the smoking rates declined. It was the biggest drop of smoking that they've had in decades, and that's not a coincidence. And then you have another 20,000 Canadian that wrote in and said, I'm against this. Here are my reasons, then fly it. Health Canada did a seminar with us. They did a live webcast and they participated in it. And then Mark Holland showed up. And for those of you that don't know Mark Holland, he's our minister of health, and this file doesn't even belong to him. He is not in charge of this file. However, you wouldn't think it until now that he wasn't in charge because he went up there and said, I'm doing a flavor ban. I'm doing a flavor ban. I don't care. Like he must have said, I don't care what these people say. I know better because he said that I want the power to decide what flavors people need for cessation. No, you need to talk to us so we can tell you what flavors we need.

[20:46] Russell: And the idea behind, you know, why are flavors so important to people who vape?

[20:52] Maria: I think that's a personal question to each and every one. However, when you smoke, it's a burnt taste. And again, if we're going to go think about this in the realm of harm reduction. Harm reduction is not about quitting a substance. It's about consuming a substance in the safest way possible. It just so happens that we have cigarette smoking as the comparison. And there is nothing wrong with nicotine. Nicotine until this. I think it's been the last two years where they've tried to rewrite the narrative and talk about it being a bad thing. But nicotine has been used for treatments and so many diseases for so many years. Nicotine in a clean, we get it in our foods. It's something that we need in our bodies anyways. Why are flavors bad? Because it keeps people smoke free longer. And let's look at like, you know, who benefits from people smoking?

[21:55] Russell: Well, big tobacco.

[21:57] Maria: Big tobacco, the government, then NGO's we have. And again, I can't talk about this as well as others but, you know, the province of Quebec sued the tobacco companies and won. There's many settlements across this country. They need tobacco companies making cigarettes. And if this flavor ban goes through based on data that has been shared and through studies, and so what someone did from Vita, which is the vaping industries Technology association. Guys, I just call it NRT. I'll just. I know, sorry. I'm reading what Clinton's saying. Sorry, I got, this is a new kind of thing for me. There's too much going on. I'm way too old for all this stuff happening. It's getting me excited.

[22:46] Russell: Sorry.

[22:46] Maria: Where were ngo's? They all need, they all get funded from pharma. They all get funded from Health Canada. Health Canada needs the tobacco money. They need the tobacco money to keep going forward and back to the Vita thing. If this flavor ban goes through, based on studies, and a number, 4 billion cigarettes will go into production the first year of a flavor ban, that's 4 billion cigarettes to be taxed. I have the number two. I will get back to you on the number. But if I can multitask with everything else going on.

[23:21] Russell: To me, it's, to me, it's, it's very ironic in a way. The government stigmatizes people who smoke. They, the latest one is now they have smoking kills and similar little catchphrases on the actual tip of the cigarette. They have pictures of very visceral pictures on the, on the cigarette cartons. They, all these different things. They have inserts that tell you how bad smoking is and that. But they, they don't, they must not mind it all that much because at the end of the day, they still sell it well.

[24:00] Maria: They're not doing anything inventive. You know, I call the canadian tobacco control the classic five. The classic five are older people, and I'm an older person, so you know what? I'm putting myself in that. But, you know, I, I still got my mojo, for lack of a better word. I'm still thinking outside of the box. But they're not inventive. Literally putting the words, sorry, guys, I'm going to be rude, but smoking will cause a limp dick on there is just as stupid as putting. Smoking will cause impotency. Anyone that smokes a cigarette in this day and age is very well aware all they're doing is putting messaging, stigmatizing messaging upon stigmatizing messaging. How about put a message saying that vaping is 95% safer. Vaping has works, is the best NRT on the market because that, there are studies, if you go look at the Cochrane review. The Cochrane Review, which is one of the most prestigious organizations in the world, have said that vaping is more effective than anything on the market as we speak.

[25:12] Russell: Where do you find the passion for the advocacy? Because I find a lot of advocates can be somewhat doom and gloom. But, you know, I watched. I watched the panel that you ran on YouTube, and you're just, you got. You have jokes, you're energetic, and that. Where do you find, you know, how. How does this advocacy define you?

[25:36] Maria: I advocate. I think it's important to speak up. I have one voice. So I actually do. I started talk. So just on a side note here, I changed the policy in my local hospital because of the things that I learned about vaping. You need to find people that will amplify your voice, and you can't give up. And you always need to focus on the people that have supported you, opposed to the people that are not supporting you. And it is doom and gloom, honestly, if we don't get our act together, if, like, you know, if people don't start sending these letters, if people don't start moving forward and doing these things. Yeah, we're gonna have. Thanks, Scott. We're gonna have a flavor ban. However, you know, what I do believe is I remember the 23,000 people that sent a letter postcard back in 2019, the 20,000 people that sent letter submissions in 2021, and right now be over 30,000 people who have sent a letter, a unique letter to Health Canada. And I want you guys to know is that I mailed every single letter. My post office literally calls me and said, can you not put them in the mailbox? Just come to us. They kind of figured out who I was. I live in a small town, but that's the thing, is that it is a doom and gloom kind of thing. We're screwed, but we don't have to be screwed and miserable at the same time. Right. It's a mindset. We're going to be in that same situation no matter what. You can look at it through rose colored glasses. I have been accused of being too positive and too negative all in the same sentence. And that's okay. I'm just going to move forward. Someone told me I'm delusional. I'm not delusional because I've had positive experiences. And those are the positive experiences are going to move me forward because that is my choice. That is my choice on what I do and how I move forward. And no one can take that away from me. When I first started advocating this. I was advocating in this space. And one of the lobbyists said, I'm too emotional. And I said, well, if I'm not, can't be me. I'm not going to work with you guys. So I moved on.

[27:42] Russell: Well, these topics are emotional, right? Because we're talking about banning something that helps people, you know, as a harm reduction method and their preferred way to consume nicotine. So it is emotional for people. And I, and I don't think that you can take the emotion out of it. And it's inappropriate to ask people to take emotion out of it.

[28:04] Maria: I agree. And you know what's a funny question that we get a lot in Ottawa? What? Oh, we just get, what rights do vapers have, right? And I'm like, they're canadian, so they have the same rights that you have. And it's not about what you think is right for you, it's about what you. It is about what you think is right for you. And if you don't want to vape, you don't have to vape if you want to continue smoking. Not a single person I know me. I can't say that I will not judge you. What I'm asking you to do is value and respect the fact that we have a constitution, we have a charter, and harm reduction is protected in there. We're in the process of trying to prove that this is a harm reduction tool. And once that is done, our rights are back. And people have to understand we have the right to choose our own way of managing our addiction. And it doesn't matter if you don't like my addiction. That's none of your business. You just have to move forward and understand harm reduction is not about quitting. It's about consuming in a safer way. And if we follow the national drug strategy, that's the way it should be. And flavors should not be touched.

[29:19] Russell: Someone on Twitter was messaged me and said that. They said, they said that after flavors are banned, the next thing they're going to do is they're going to start reducing the amount of nicotine in the vapes. Do you think that if flavors are banned, that would be the next step?

[29:35] Maria: I mean, they could do whatever they want. Like, I mean, are they going to regulate the black market? Because I can't picture anybody based on the ingredient list and how they're having some flavors created from this ingredients list. They're not palatable. They're not going to be enjoyable. People are either going to return to smoking or go through a black market. So unless they kind of figure out how to regulate biker gangs and mafia. I mean, sorry, so called mafia. I don't know. Like, they can regulate it all they want. Like, we saw what happened with the NCAP. It grew the black market.

[30:15] Russell: Someone did have a question. VaEp does good work. Don't know if those ladies are still around, though.

[30:23] Maria: I think Kelly is still around. She reach out to that. Go to the website. It's Vaep world.com. So much information on there. She is doing incredible work as, as a nurse. She fought to be able to keep that sight. Like, her story is incredible.

[30:44] Russell: I want to talk just briefly about myths because I still feel like there's a lot of myths. And one of them you alluded to earlier was popcorn. Right. The idea of popcorn lung. And that still gets talked about. You know, I have a family member who knows I vape. And they said, watch out, you're going to get popcorn lung. And I said, well, I'm pretty sure that got debunked. So, you know, can you talk, tell us a little bit about popcorn lung and what it was and. And why it scared so many people.

[31:16] Maria: Okay. I have no idea how popcorn lung even started with vaping because it all started because of people who were inhaling dias. I can't say this word. Diacetyl. Someone's going to correct me. Thank you. And they all worked in a popcorn for factory. And diacetyl was one of the ingredients in the early days of vaping. The early days of vaping that was there, but I think it was like in 2009 or nine or ten EPTA, it's now a defunct organization, started doing testing for this, and all of a sudden there were version twos of all the flavors that removed the diacetyl. What people don't actually know is that in cigarettes, there is more diacetyl that is inhaled than any vaping product that was ever on the market in Canada. It's a myth that was debunked, but it's really cute to do those little popcorn thing. We have great stickers, though, that say we have fake scratch and sniff stickers. If you guys, if you email me at info@rightsforvapers.com I will mail you some stickers. Just email me@infoightsforvapers.com dot. I'm putting a stamp on it and there's no tracking. I have stamps. I'm going to put them in the mail. But one of our stickers says stale popcorn is the smell of it. And it says, don't smell anything. And it says, yeah, that's because popcorn lung is bullshit. However, at the rally that we're having outside of Mark Holland's office, we have popcorn. We're bringing a popcorn machine because that's the only popcorn that anybody will get from vaping.

[32:58] Russell: Someone had mentioned in the comments section, vaping isn't healthy for you. And, you know, I personally, I mean, I don't think inhaling any substance is necessarily healthy for you. But, you know, I was a smoker. I smoked for years, and, you know, I switched to vaping, oh, man, years ago now, back when it was kind of in the early stages. It's so much. It's so much better now, I would say, than it was even five years ago. The quality of the products is better. The quality of the juices is better. It's. It's so much, I would say, like, the industry has really evolved in many positive ways. I mean, when people say, well, vaping isn't healthy for you, well, I don't think inhaling anything is necessarily healthy for you if it's not just air. But at the end of the day, I'll say this, you know, my quality of life is improved. I don't smell like an ashtray anymore. And I, and I think I save a lot more money given the cost of cigarettes these days. So, I mean, I've seen positive changes in my life for switching from smoking to vaping. And I encourage other people, too, you know, I. To give it a try to go out, just try it and see if it's something for them.

[34:19] Maria: I agree. I think that is a very common, like, vaping isn't safe. There's not enough studies. It's this, it's that. Well, you know what? The Royal College of Physicians since 2014 has stuck their. Stuck, stuck their. Stayed their ground, and vaping is. Reduces the risk by 95%. And those people that tell you to quit, we're not here in a prohibition era. We. We practice harm reduction in every aspect of our lives because nothing is safe. Even putting that seatbelt does not guarantee safety. It reduces the risk of injury in an accident by only 50%. Vaping reduces the risk from smoking by 95%. It is mandated in this country to wear a seatbelt all the time. It is not mandated. And people are trying to remove the reduced risk product and keep the harm. And it's crazy to think that and harm reduction, again, is not about quitting. It's about reducing risk in an activity.

[35:21] Russell: You'Re doing now, do you think? I mean, for, for a long for a long time, the only way you could really do, like, a harm reduction to quit smoking, and that was to go through, like, a nicotine patch, was to go through, like, a chewing gum type thing. Do you think that the vaping industry put a dent in, like, the. In that harm reduction industry?

[35:45] Maria: Absolutely. Again, like I stated earlier, you're looking at 2018. If you look at the statistics of people who've quit smoking, the numbers dropped as soon as vaping became a regulated product in Canada. That was the largest drop that Health Canada has seen in smoking rates in decades. We did that. And I want everyone to remember that vaping was created by people who smoke, for people who smoke. This was a product that was created by people who understood what they needed to feel that same cessation in a much safer way. It was. And then you talked about regulation. Most of the shops, especially at the beginning, and a lot of the manufacturers, the bigger manufacturers in Canada are people who use the product. So I've watched from the inside and watched each other. People challenge themselves, creating better labs, creating better quality, testing their products, creating. Creating a system, doing ISO certification, doing all this because they wanted to create a safer product. And let me remind you, not a single regulation that is currently out there has anything really to do other than the milligram rate of what is inside. Health Canada has been focusing on what's outside, and it is the people that are making your eliquids right now that are focusing on what's inside. And those people, those Canadians. And I feel for them because these are some of my friends, people that I've watched grow their business. You know, they're doing, they did everything they can to create regulations before they were there. And no black market's going to do what, what was done in the early 2010s. Please send a letter. Writesforvapers.com. It takes less than five minutes. Ask your friends. Ask your family. Ask, ask your family, your family members, your friends. There's a list. I support vaping. Those ones are even more important as well. Very important as well.

[37:51] Russell: So I guess the, the next question I have is, you know, and to get, I guess, a little political, and that, because it is a conservative podcast, I do want to ask, is about when it comes to, like, the party in power. So the liberal party does not appear that they are listening to Canadians, canadian people who vape in Canada. Is there any party that you know of that besides the Ontario PC party? Like, even, like, the libertarians? Like, are they in favor of left regulation? Really?

[38:28] Maria: Here's the thing, is that what? I've noticed that this is sort of a common ground around parties. You either, again, we're going back out to. We're going to go back to stigmatization. Everybody hates people who smoke. Everybody likes the money from people who smoke. Our taxation is huge. And we'll talk about that.

[38:53] Russell: Let's talk about it right now. Let's talk about the money.

[38:56] Maria: The money. Okay, so no party. No party will come out because it's scary to go up against a mom, you know, save my kid. Don't, you know, don't buy your kid a vape. I can tell you when I used to own a vape shop, how many. I literally had to tell a mother. She was like, well, if I don't buy this for my 15 year old, she'll be mad at me. And I literally have to say, that's okay. If your teenager is mad at you, you're probably doing the right thing. But they recently increased the tax on vaping products by like 12% or something like something crazy, which doesn't work out. It's like pennies. However, Minister Freeland, or minister of finance did say during the budget that the excise tax on vaping products and tobacco products would cover our national drug plan. So it's those funds that will pay again, putting on the backs of people who are doing unhealthy things in their mind. However, Mark Holland, at the exact same time, is reviving this flavor ban. I want to ask Mister Freeland, is one question, and one question only is how are you going to tax something that doesn't exist? Because Minister Holland, flavor ban removes every single product on market today. There is not a single product that would be legal. How are you going to tax something that doesn't? And then we go back to that Vita study. There's an increase of 4 billion cigarettes. So Minister Freeland needs to answer. The question is, are you going, do you have, do you have a deal with the black market and the biker gangs and they're going to give you a cut of their profits? Or are you counting on people going back to smoking? Because we can't be the only people that are smart enough to figure out that study and do the math.

[40:44] Russell: Do you think there's lobbying from like, big tobacco, big pharma on this?

[40:48] Maria: Absolutely. I'm sure there's lobbying from all of them. I think NGO's, national government organizations and non government organizations, they do the most of the lobbying. They're funded mostly by pharmacy. I can't speak. I know that big tobacco can only talk so much. But they can talk so much with saying is that, hey, we owe you all this money. We owe you all this money. And big pharma can be like, hey, we need, like, if you think about it, you said you're healthier, correct? You feel better?

[41:21] Russell: Yes.

[41:22] Maria: So we can use my husband for an example. He was getting an asthma inhaler every month and another one every six weeks. He now gets two asthma inhalers a year. How much money did pharma lose from my husband?

[41:37] Russell: Thousands.

[41:38] Maria: And multiply that by the 1.5 million people who. Vague tobacco related illnesses are a slow, painful death that can be in your life, can be sustained very uncomfortably, very cruelly, with medicine. Oxygen inhalers, asthma inhalers, other types of COPD medicine. Pharma has never. You. You guys are going to tell me that with all the scientists in pharma, they never thought of doing a vape? They never thought of doing a nick pouch, they never thought of creating a proper tool to help people quit smoking? Bullshit. They know they need us sick, so we need to fight even harder. And when you look at minister Holland and you just google him, take five minutes and google him, he has openly said that at the darkest moment of his life, when he did not want to be here anymore, when he lost his seat, nobody wanted him. His wife was pulling away. His kids were pulling away. He wanted to end everything. And heart and stroke, one of the biggest tobacco control shit disturbers, hired him. And all his talking points are not from the Health Canada website. They're from the heart and Stroke website. He is talking as if he's an employee of the heart and stroke. When he forgets that he is a paid. He is an elected public servant, and he works for Canadians, not for the heart and stroke. So he needs to do something. And this is where the ethics and stuff start getting messy.

[43:18] Russell: Well, we know the current party and ethics tend not to go hand in hand. I think they're kind of like water and oil. They repel each other. But it's really sad to me that because you're right, a customer cured is a customer lost, as they say. And you're right in the idea that if they were so concerned about harm reduction, then why didn't they come up with something years ago and. And market it themselves? You know, if. If I kind of read the regulations and they're saying now that if flavors are banned, the flavors will have to smell like, basically, they will have to taste like a cigarette product. And with one exception, for mint.

[44:07] Maria: But they give us the ingredients, there's no sweetener. So a pure mint does not taste nice? No, they cannot be sweetened. They will have smell police, for lack of a better word. There are 40 molecules for anything that's mint. And they're like 42. I think it's 42 and 40, something like that. For tobacco, they can't be mixed. And those are the only molecules that can be used. There is no sweetener, no additives that are allowed to be put in. Every most of our vaping products have sweetener, but you can't use sweet flavors. So that tobacco product, you're vaping because you're sitting there saying, I'm fine, I got tobacco. Ask what's in it. Ask about those flavors and ask. Make sure you go into a vape shop that has the sign up there, because if the vape shop that you go into doesn't have a sign about this band, they're not going to know. They're not going to know exactly what's going on. But all products have sweetener. Many products have sweeteners in it or sweet flavors to help take down some of the bitterness. So they're banning all the, all that.

[45:15] Russell: And I, you know, if this flavor ban does go through, how many jobs do you figure will be lost?

[45:23] Maria: Thousands. Thousands upon thousands. And that reminds me, if you work at a vape shop, sign the letter, send a letter. There's a choice. You have a choice of the things that you care about to be able to. We hope that we've covered feelings from everyone. We. I reached out to consumers. I reached out to vape shop owners. I reached out to vape shop employees to make sure that some of the feelings matched. Because if we're going to ask the government to bring in lived experience, you know that at rates for vapers, we're going to bring in the lived experience as well. We walk our talk. We've just, like, you know, the thing is, is if we want something done, how about we show how it's done? Like, we're not allowed as well. We're not allowed in any conferences that talk about smoking cessation because they say we're the same as tobacco. But I invite those people to everything we do because I want to be invited and included. So we're about inclusion, they're about exclusion.

[46:21] Russell: Yeah. When I was looking at the regulations on the website, I was kind of, I was dismayed to see that there was a real push to not market even within Health Canada, and the regulations that vaping products were a safer alternative to, to tobacco products. I was actually quite shocked that that wording is prohibited. And, and I just, it just, it's so nanny state. Like, it's so like, oh, we can't trust people to make their own decisions. We can't trust the free market to guide consumers where they want to go. We have to be big parent to these dirty smokers and these awful vapors.

[47:04] Maria: Well, that's the other thing is there is a regulation that still hasn't moved and passed about relative risk statements that we've been waiting from Health Canada, where there's so, just so you guys know, if you told a miner, if you sold something in your shop, if someone in a shop sold to a minor and told that minor that vaping is safer than smoking without pulling out all the data, they would get up. I think that's a 50 or $500,000 fine and 18 months in prison and only $3,000 if they. For selling it to a kid. But telling the kid all that stuff is more punishable, punitive, more punitive than the other way. It makes no friggin sense.

[47:53] Russell: Well, it seems convoluted. Now, have they invited stakeholders into any of these talks? Like real stakeholders, like the consumer? Not just.

[48:01] Maria: Yeah. After the 2021 flavor ban regulation that has somehow revived. They started an advocacy panel with consumers, and they met often. And a lot of people on Twitter are part of that. Jeanine Timmons. There is Marion, Burt, Dave, Paul, Monica, Jackie. There are so many people that they go in there. And the changes that we saw, like the comment about popcorn lung and how no one, there's no popcorn lung at the explanation about Evali, when we had all those lung things that was, they tried to associate with nicotine, is all clarified on the website. And that is because they engaged with the consumers. And we have to understand that Health Canada is a body and it's a living body. It's a, it's a body that doesn't change. Our minister of health changes. And now we have an asshole who wants to. Sorry, guys, there's no other word for him than, I mean, what, are you going to sue me? It's not derogatory. You're an asshole. He has changed and he is manipulating, and it's not even his file. However, again, Mark Holland and quote, unquote, the heart and stroke association gave me purpose in life, gave me a job, did all these things. Understand? And I want everyone listening right now to think back at one of the lowest times in your life and that one person that gave you an opportunity that believed in you and the loyalty you have to that person to this day. Think about that and then you can totally understand Mark Holland's loyalty to the heart and stroke association because they gave him purpose. And just like those people in our lives, it could be a job, it could be an organization, it could be another human being. It's real.

[49:52] Russell: There's a loyalty that's kind of developed there, right?

[49:55] Maria: Yeah. Because he's not subhuman. He's not subhuman like he's a human being. I know I'm calling him an asshole, but at the end of the day, he is a human being. He has feelings, he has emotions. He felt low and these people brought him up. And that unfortunately, because of the position that he's in, makes it a conflict of interest and he needs to step away and it's too late. He's so deep in muddy these waters and we have to speak up. And those letters that we sent, I know I sound like a broken telephone. Lightstroyvapors.com send, send letters. He needs, it needs to happen. And I know people think that, oh, they're not listening. They're just going to throw them away. Well, they can't because guess what? We're going to be in Ottawa again on May 30. We're booking the press room and we're going to have those letters with us all, hopefully 50, 60, 70,000 of them. We're going to show how many letters we help Canada and everyone collecting those letters accountable. We are not going to let them miss a. Miscalculate who we are.

[51:06] Russell: Well, I definitely wish that more people that were involved in activism had the, had the energy that you have. That's, that's amazing.

[51:15] Maria: Oh my God. Thank you. It's, I'm going to go crash after this. So like, and I just want to tell everybody, I, you know, other than water and water and maybe coffee once in a while and nicotine, that's like all it is. I just, we just love people and I love the fact that people, I just think, I think our democracy is important. I think our rights are important. And I may not agree, like, I'll share this, some of you may agree. I don't agree. I don't agree with pro life, I don't agree with that movement. I don't agree with some of the things they're doing. But when I watch them in Ottawa protest in the numbers, my heart swole because they were exercising their right in a very respectful way. And to me, whatever, you know, I think everybody's voice matters. But I think there's something beautiful about advocating, and that comes from the fact that we have the ability to do that. We have. And there's so many places in this world that you can't protest against government freely.

[52:29] Russell: Well, 100%. Oh, I think it's, I think it's important. I like to have different voices on the show and people with different opinions, people with, you know, they're doing interesting things. And I, and I mean, I do have a personal stake, and I like my flavored vapes. But, but I, you know, I, I appreciate you coming on to the show. I know it's, you know, the Canadian Conservative, so there's a bit of a political connotation that can come with it. But I saw your post on there saying that the media doesn't want to have these conversations. I said, well, I have a platform and I want to have conversations. And I think what you're doing, what you're talking about is really interesting. So I really wanted to have you on the show today, and I appreciate that you agreed to be on the show.

[53:16] Maria: Oh, this is just our fawning over each other moment. I love it. I love it. I love it. I just want to tell everybody, don't judge other people. Vaping has, can stand on its own merit. We don't have to disparage any other form of harm reduction to be able to have our voice. We need to be able to walk our talk. Harm reduction is not about quitting. It's about participating in your drug of choice. Nicotine is a drug in this country, so it should be treated just like any other drug. And send those letters. Don't be ashamed. Use your voice. Your voice matters. Call your MP. You know what? Call your mp. We're going to follow us at rightsforvapers on Twitter. Call your mp and let them know that you don't want the flavor ban. After you send the letter, call them and tell them you sent a letter and you want to make sure that they do that. Just reach out to them. Use your voice. Someone told me that there's like a level of how much things are like if you send an email, it gives you one point, but if you walk into your MP's office, it's like 20 points. And sending a letters in between and a phone call is a little bit higher than a letter. Send the letter, give a call, and then walk in. Because I'm going to tell you this. I walk into my MP's office anytime I feel like it to say hi and tell them I'm not happy with what's going on with the flavor ban or whatever else I'm upset about. So walk in. That's what they're there for. They work for you, not the other way around.

[54:53] Russell: And I think that's really important. Maria. You know, in another podcast episode I did with. With a lawyer, we talked about the idea. You go in for your health check, you go in for your dental check. When's the last time you went to your MP and you did a democracy check where you brought your concerns forward and that they, again, they work for you? Their office is there. They have to see you. They can't not see you. So when was the last time you did that and took part in democracy?

[55:23] Maria: Exactly. And in the next couple of days, we're going to post how many letters at a certain date each MP received, and you can call and use that number. I know that myself and 77 other constituents. 77 might not sound like a good number, but just remember, they count one constituent for three, so that 77 is multiplied by three. Or whatever math they do, it's not one on one. I just want to say thank you to everyone. Every single, all 30,000. Whatever we're at right now, maybe we're at 31,000. Thank you to every single person that sent a letter. Thank you to every single vape shop employee that has said something to the consumer. Thank you to each consumer for making the choice to send the letter. If there are any shops out there that do not have access to information, please just share the information with your customers. You don't have to push them. Just let them know. Let people. You can only do better if you know better. And if people don't know about the flavor ban, then they don't have the right to make that choice. We are not to be keepers. We're not gatekeepers of this information. It's happening. Like it or not. We're ready to fight it.