The Complicated Relationship Between American Jews & Israel

Dr. Guy Golan is an associate professor of strategic communications at Texas Christian University. We discussed his new book "My Brother's Keeper? The Complicated Relationship Between American Jews & Israel."

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[00:01] Russell: All right, folks, and we're back. Russell here with the canadian conservative podcast today. In the studio, I have Guy Gulan. Guy is an associate professor of strategic communication at Texas Christian University. He's published more than 50 peer reviewed journal articles focused on intersection between government communications, social media, and public opinion. He has written a book co authored with Guy Chet called my brother's the complicated relationship between American Jews and Israel. So his team reached out to me and asked if I would be interested in doing a podcast to discuss it, and I purchased a copy of his book. It is a good book to learn more about the history of Israel, to learn more about Reform Judaism in America. I will admit I'm very green on this subject, so it really provided a good introduction. Guy, welcome to the show today.

[00:59] Guy Golan: Hey, thanks for having me.

[01:01] Russell: Before we get started, if you'd like to give just an introduction, tell us a little bit more about yourself and why you decide to write the book.

[01:09] Guy Golan: Well, really, I'm not that interesting, but the book is. And the reason why guy and I, my co author, decided to write this book is because, as you know, everybody's talking about Israel. Everybody's got an opinion about Israel, but very few people know anything about Israel. And this is especially true for American Jews, who, while they think they know a lot of Israel, they really don't.

[01:33] Russell: Now, in the book, one of the main kind of sections I saw in the book is how there seems to be a separation in America between the culture and the religious aspect of, whereas in Israel, those two aspects seem to be more intertwined. Do you think that's more of a political thing, giving kind of like western liberal democracy compared to Israel, which seems to be more nationalistic?

[02:03] Guy Golan: Well, there are two jewish tribes, the two largest jewish tribes in the world. One is in Israel, the other one is in the United States. There are roughly about 8 million in each one of those locations. Israel is very different than American Jewry for a simple reason. Jews who live in Israel live in their own nation where they are a majority, whereas American Jews are a very small minority within a larger christian nation. So the political sociology of the two groups is completely different. And this is what we focus our book all about.

[02:38] Russell: Yeah, like I read through most of the book, it is a pretty heavy book, especially if someone doesnt really know a lot about the topic. Theres a lot of really good stats in there. And it kind of did strike me where you were talking about how in Israel, being that they are majority jewish population, they dont feel like theyre a minority, so they dont have the concerns that someone thats a minority in a country might have compared to America.

[03:08] Guy Golan: Yeah, we talk about that. So, for example, you know, when the whole Bernie Madoff scandal happened in the United States, a lot of american Jews were like, oh, my God, Bernie Madoff is jewish. All, will my christian neighbors think about it? In Israel, you don't have that problem when somebody is convicted of any felony. Well, he's just another jewish criminal in a nation of mostly jewish people. Now, Israel is 80% jewish and 20% not jewish. But what is unique about Israel is that it is a nation, is a nation state. And this is another reason why our book is so interesting for people who may not be interested in Israel or jewish people at all. Israel really serves as a metaphor to where the future of the west is going. So we describe in the book how in the early days of Israel, Israel was a darling of the west. It was the time of national movement after World War one, and then after World War two, when Israel was established, where people strive to have their own country. So we had a bunch of new nations across South Asia, across the Middle east, across eastern Europe, right? And nations like Estonia was highly established. But then something happened later on in the century, and that is globalization. And then there was a rejection of the nation state within the west, and it was replaced with a new concept, which is globalization. So no longer should people have their own nation for an ethnic group or a religious group, but rather, everybody can live everywhere and everybody's just the same as everybody else. So this clash between the nation state and the globalization paradigm meets itself these days in Europe, in Canada and the United States. And Israel is the ultimate metaphor for the clash between the two schools of God.

[05:08] Russell: Yeah, that was one of the interesting parts of the book, talking about nationalism and how nationalism has become such a bad word in the west.

[05:19] Guy Golan: Well, it's a bad word in the left. So not across the west, but across the left. The left views nationalistic movement as xenophobic, as a rejectionist, as non inclusive. And you see this a lot in Europe. When people are talking about nationalist movement in Europe, they're talking about the far left, right, the concept of people who want to have a nation for people. It seems outdated to many people, but think about it. There is a reason why there is Norway, Sweden, and Finland. There is a reason why Czechoslovakia broke and the Czechs and the Slovaks wanted their own nations. So tribalism, nationalism is very consistent with the nature of human beings. And again, in Europe, we're seeing this come to fruition with every single election taking care right now.

[06:16] Russell: Yeah, it seems like governments around the world are starting to become more right leaning. There's a big revitalization in nationalism. But even within the revitalization of nationalism within a lot of these countries, it seems like Israel is still the outlier, where people still feel like they have a need to criticize Israel for its nationalistic policies. And so even though there's a lot of movement towards more patriotism, nationalism, there still seems to be, as I've heard it called, the Israel question.

[06:54] Guy Golan: Well, the Israel question is a unique question, and it raises a really big question, and that is, why is one tiny nation called Israel singled out like no other nation? So let's take all of the protests on college campuses, right when the war in Gaza began, after the attacks, the Hamas attacks on October 7, you saw human right advocates, so called human rights advocates all across the west protest against Israel, who was defending itself from a jihadist movement. But, you know, when you did not see those people, you didn't see those college protesters. When half a million civilians in Syria were butchered by the Assad regime with the help of Russia, you didn't see any of these protesters take to the street. When Yemen had a civil war that was sponsored by Iran, where nearly half a million people died and more than a million people were displaced. And you didn't see it when in Sudan, you had a war. Again, half a million people died. So we see completely different standards for the state of Israel and everybody else. And why is that? It's a big question.

[08:08] Russell: Well, is it. Is it just jew hatred? Does it come down to jew hatred?

[08:13] Guy Golan: I don't think it's jew hatred necessarily. I think there is a debate. If you look at who the protesters are, the protest coalition. It's the most bizarre coalition of all times. Half of the people on Harvard, Columbia, University of Pennsylvania, University of Toronto, I'm sure half the people are basically arab immigrants or muslim immigrants. And I understand why they were protesting Israel. They don't like Israel. They don't think Israel has the right to even exist. All of it all, you know, the entire country. But the other half is. That's where the bizarre coalition comes into play. You have people who are deep in the progressive left awoke coalition, the transgendered, the people who are LGBTQ, the people who are arguing and fighting for human rights and equality. Now, if any of those folks were to go to the Middle east, they would be shot in the head without a question. And yet this coalition finds a unifying message around the rejection of the west. They really are rejecting the west and its presence across the world, because in their minds, they learned this from their. From many of their professors. Any european entity that exists outside of Europe is a form of colonial nation. So because they know nothing about the history of Israel and because they don't know the history of the fact that Jews have always lived in the state of Israel, and you have archaeological, you know, support for it across the board, they were like, oh, Jews are from Europe. The Arabs are native people. Therefore, Jews are colonialists. Again, that claim doesn't have a lot of historical basis, but we can get.

[10:03] Russell: Into that, I guess. Then there's a chapter in the book that kind of talks about how the christian right is in support of Israel. However, there's still some Christians, even, that deny that Israel is where it's at, is the traditional home of jewish people, despite the fact that they will read the Old Testament and even the New Testament. It's like they. Did. They just. I don't know. Did they replace the word jew in there with Roman or something like that? I don't know. It just, to me, I've heard people deny that that are Christians. I'm like, well, didn't you read the Bible? I mean, do you know anything about the. You know, even Paul writing the letters, like, you know, St. Paul, he was. He was a Pharisee, like I. Like, he was a Pharisee, not a Roman. Like I. It seems like there seems to be some cognitive dissonance going on.

[11:04] Guy Golan: Well, you know, the. The christian umbrella is very wide and includes a lot of people. Right? But in the United States, the mainstream evangelical movement is overwhelmingly pro Israel. I mean, and overwhelmingly so. We dedicate a couple of chapters in a book to discuss the alliance between evangelical Christians and the jewish people. And it's not just that evangelical christians love the state of Israel. A lot of evangelical christians love the jewish people, and they love the jewish people because of theological reasons. Right? They believe that those who will bless the Jews will be blessed, and those who will curse the Jews will be cursed. When you look at what evangelical Christians are doing these days to support the jewish people in the United States, you will see that they are at the forefront of fighting the BDS movement, the boycott divestment sanction movement. They're fighting anti semitism on college campuses. They're fighting it in the mainstream media, in Hollywood. So wherever there is the notion that Jews are to be treated like second class people, you have christian Zionists and evangelical Christians standing up for the jewish brothers and that's pretty amazing.

[12:19] Russell: Now, is that an. Is that a hand in hand alliance, or is it like an uneasy alliance? Because from what I understand, there are some orthodox jewish people that don't agree with Christianity. So is that hand in hand, or is that more. Just a more tense agreement?

[12:39] Guy Golan: Well, Russell, we have one chapter called why do evangelical Christians love the jewish people? And then the next chapter is, why are american Jews suspicious of evangelical Christians? The reason why so many evangelical american Jews are suspicious of the evangelical Christians is very simple. American Jews are overwhelmingly in the democratic party. Right? And they're sociologically liberal and lean to the left. And guess who is on the exact opposite of the political spectrum? Evangelical Christians. So the reason why a lot of american Jews distrust evangelical Christians is not because of their Christianity. It's because of their right leaning policies. They treat evangelical christians in a very similar way to the treat any Trump supporters.

[13:29] Russell: Just like them, I guess. A hypothetical question here. So talking about Israel, talking about a jewish state and the lefts want for globalization, how come that type of talk doesn't seem to really extend to other arab nations around Israel? Why is it Israel that has to globalize, but the other nations nearby have to remain secular or allowed to?

[14:00] Guy Golan: Well, very simple, because the left's ideology regarding nations come from a post colonial paradigm. This is what, you know, parents, when you send your children to the university, this is what they're often going to learn about. And basically, the idea here is that any westerner who challenges non western nation in the way they live is automatically accused of being orientalist and thinking they're superior to the native people of the land. However, because Israel is sociologically a western nation, they're held up to a different standard.

[14:45] Russell: Now, in Canada, we've seen our fair share of pro Hamas protests in Canada. They really erupted shortly after October 7. They took over our universities. We still, every day of the week, sometimes multiple protests a day all throughout Canada, focused mostly around university campuses and the major urban city centers. Although in the rural area that I'm out in, we've seen a few of them at some of the local towns. And one thing I've kind of noticed is that within this protest sphere, there are people that say that they are jewish, and they're calling the pro Israel protesters or counter protesters. They're saying that they are zionist nazi fascists. But is that not an oxymoron?

[15:37] Guy Golan: Well, again, remember, we spoke about the strange coalition, the coalition that doesn't make sense, right? Why would any jew want to protest together with people who support Hamas or Hezbollah or any of the jihadist movement. Those jihadist movements want to do one simple thing with the jewish people, and that is kill them. So, you know, there are some, a lot of confused people in the world. But let's talk about the concept of Zionism and how did the church term Zionism become a four letter word amongst, you know, in university campuses? First of all, for your listeners who may not be familiar, let's describe what Zionism is. Zionism is a national movement of the jewish people. It started in the late 18 hundreds in Europe with the same hope that other national movements had, which is to have their own nation for their own people. Right? No different than the Algerians who want to have their own nation without the French. No different than the Gandhi who wanted his own nation for the, for the hindu people in India. So that's what Zionism is, the notion that the jewish people should have their own country. And ironically enough, a lot of people are like, Israel shouldn't have, the jewish people shouldn't have their own country, the Palestinians should have their own country, the Saudis should have their own country, the Iranians. Right. So why is it that the hopes of the jewish people to have their own nation is not legitimate, but the hopes of any other people to have their own nation is legitimate? Good question, isn't it?

[17:08] Russell: I do think it's a good question. Anti Semitism in Canada and the United States and kind of around the world is, I mean, we're seeing a rise of it, especially post October 7 in Canada. We've had synagogues that have been vandalized, people attempting to breach synagogues, people sitting outside of synagogues to harass, people going in and going out. And that seems to be just an acceptable thing in our society. Now, I don't understand quite why, but that seems to be the sort of thing. So with these behaviors directed towards synagogues in North America, what type of measures do you think that these synagogues should be taking to protect themselves?

[17:58] Guy Golan: I don't think that's the right question. I think the right question is what are the people of the west going to do to protect themselves? Let's talk about this. The vast majority of Americans, I know about the United States. The vast majority of Americans support Israel. The vast majority. And you saw this not only, obviously, the republican parties fastly supportive of Israel, but he saw this in the democratic National Convention where they didn't let any Palestinians in the building. They wouldn't let him speak. And even, I mean, it was everybody from Kamala Harris to every single speaker, they spoke about the steadfast commitment of the Democrats to the state of Israel. The vast majority of Americans support Israel in their fight for survival in against the jihadist movement. I'm going to guess that the vast majority of Canadians support Israel and reject the global jihadist movement. The people, you see who are vandalizing, who are using violence, it's a very small number of people. They're just violent and loud and aggressive. The real question is, when will the people, the majority, stand up to the footlamps?

[19:05] Russell: Do you think. Do you think it ends with jewish people? Do you think, do you think that these types of people that are protesting, do you think that it's going to continue regardless?

[19:18] Guy Golan: Well, again, let's separate between the first or second generation immigrants who came from the Middle east to Canada or to the US or to France or to England, and they are struggling to integrate into society for various reasons. Right. That's one part of the problem. And the other side of the problem are the people with a purple, you know, purple and green hair who are shouting down anybody who disagrees with them on college campuses and using violence. Right? So those are two separate groups. They don't share the same interests. They're just collaborating on the short term issue right now. And I think the answer to your question will be decided in Europe. So again, after World War. During World War Two, Europe went to the far right. After World War Two, Europe went to the far left in Europe after World War Two, and we speak about this in the book, every single symbol of nationalism was erase. They erase borders within the EU. So if you are from Germany, you can work in, you know, Belgium, if you work, if you're from Holland, you can work in Spain. Then they got rid of the currency, so they got rid of the italian lira and the french franc and so forth and replaced it with the euro. And they took away the power from local government and gave it to the bureaucrats in Brussels. Right. In the EU commission. What we're seeing now in the french elections, in the dutch elections, right, in the italian elections, now in Germany in their elections, and definitely in Sweden in their election, we see the rise of the right. So, you know, it's the old hegelian, you know, there is a antithesis and thesis and, you know, synthesis. That's what we're seeing. This pendulum went too far to the right. Now it's going too far to the left. Now it's going straight in the middle. Interesting times we live in.

[21:20] Russell: Oh, definitely interesting. What do you think it will take for the Democrat leaning american jewish people to fully rally behind Israel.

[21:37] Guy Golan: They do right now. They fully rally behind Israel from their leftist perspective. So again, let's break down the american jewish vote and the political sociology of American Jews. If you look at every single election since FDR. So American Jews became a part of the FDR coalition almost 100 years ago. It was a coalition of the oppressed. It was Italians and Polish and German Americans and Jewish Americans together with African Americans. That was the Roosevelt coalition. American Jews have always been a part of the progressive left. They were a part of the labor rights movement and the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement and the trans rights movement. And ironically enough, there are the ones who are fighting islamophobia in the United States over the last 20 years, right? In every single election since FDR, American Jews voted somewhere between 70% to 80% for democratic candidates. And those American Jews are really important in the Democratic Party. You saw their influence in the last election, a convention, Kamala Harris convention a few weeks ago. And they'll tell you, look, we support Obama, we support Clinton, we support Biden. And every single one of those people, in their opinion, is a great friend to Israel, right? So the way they view it, they are supporting Israel. What they don't like. And here is where the big difference is, and this is where religion comes into play, what american Jews have a problem with is they view Israel through the narrative over the left. So again, the real question of why is there a state of Israel? The way they answer it is that Jews need the state of Israel because of the Holocaust. Right? After the Holocaust, Jews needed a refuge after the horrible massacre of 6 million Jews. And we got this piece of land in Israel and we went there to establish a safe home for us, many of them, because I didn't mention that american Jews are amongst the least religious people in the United States. So if you look at rates of being secular or being atheist, agnostic, non committal, american Jews rank amongst the highest. So because of their very low religiosity, they don't see the story of Israel through the religious perspective like many Christians. Right? This is why for many american Jews, the whole notion of the Palestinians and the occupation are very problematic, because in their hearts of hearts, they don't view the land of Israel as their native home because they're not connected to the Bible. Whereas, whereas if you look at the more conservative Jews in the United States, they are the more religious Jews. So the more religious you are in the United States, the more right leaning you are, the more likely you are to vote for the republican party. So, you know, in every election, 20% to 30% of american Jews will vote for the republican party. Right? Right. And your narrative about why the jewish people are in Israel has nothing to do with the Holocaust. It has to do with the promise that God gave to Abraham 5000 years ago.

[25:05] Russell: Focusing on the religious aspect of it, I guess this is a more spicy sort of question to ask. Do you think amongst non Jews that are religious, so sometimes christian, sometimes islamic, that there is some resentment that in the Bible Jews are considered God's chosen people and that might spur some resentment?

[25:33] Guy Golan: It's not a spicy question. It's a theological question. Right. So my conversations with evangelical Christians, this is not an issue. They take the word of God literally. Right. What. What is written in the Bible is what they believe. And for them there is no debate about this. The jewish people are the chosen people of God. Right. So this is not an issue that comes up at all.

[25:59] Russell: Okay. Now with the rise, kind of the rise we've seen of anti semitism, there's been a lot of people that have come out and they've, they've had some particularly interesting takes and that. What do you think of like, what's happened in some of the right leaning spheres with people like Candace Owens and Tucker CArlson and that sort of thing coming out and like, you know, they're, instead of, you know, it's like they've taken in the, you know, Candace Owens in particular. You know, all the jewish people killed, killed Jesus and that. But Jesus was jewish and he followed all the jewish traditions and customs. I just. Where do you think a lot of this stuff is kind of come from the last little while?

[26:52] Guy Golan: Well, let's talk about anti semitism in the United States. First of all, the United States, in my opinion, and no offense to Canada, I love Canada. But to me, the United States is the greatest nation on earth. And one of the reasons is because the United States never, ever, ever had institutional anti semitism, ever. And I'm pretty sure it's true for Canada as well. No government in the United States, and I'm guessing in Canada ever told its people, pick up a shovel and go and burn down jewish villages. They did do that in Poland and in Russia and in Germany and in France and in Italy for thousands of years. Okay, so that's number one. Number two, look, there are anti Semites everywhere and that's okay. I mean, look, not everybody likes everybody. And people in the left always like to say, well, look at the antisemitism on the right. I'm going to argue with that statement and say that what really concerns me as somebody who's jewish in the United States is the antisemitism on the left rather than on the right of. And let me tell you why. Yes, you know, Charlottesville and KKK and, you know, a couple of guys in Alabama with no teeth who blame the Jews for everything. In the world, there are a very, very small, marginalized group of people who have no political power. But the new antisemitism that is coming from the far left, where students at the university are taught that Jews and Zionism or evil and their oppressors of the native people of Palestine. And, you know, this completely detached narrative that doesn't recognize the fact that Jews have lived in the Middle east for thousands of years. Jews lived in Yemen, and Jews lived in Saudi Arabia, and Jews lived in Iraq and in Iran and all across the Middle East. Jews are indigenous. They are the indigenous people to the Middle East. Jews and Christians lived across the Middle east for thousands of years, and they were kicked out. And they're still being kicked out on a regular basis in the Middle east and all across northern Africa. So Maimonides was the chief rabbi of Egypt, of Cairo. Jews have always been a part of these lands, going, tracing back thousands of years when people go to University of Pennsylvania or Harvard or Yale, and they're taught by their super woke professors that all israeli people are from Europe. Well, they absolutely know nothing about the world. Half of the Israelis who live in Israel come from Middle east nations, not from Europe. So this whole notion that Jews are like these aliens to their own country, and they just came there from nowhere and kicked all the indigenous people out, false narrative.

[29:45] Russell: Would you be able to give us kind of the Coles notes version? Because I think where a lot of people tend to get confused, the end of World War two, the establishment of Israel, that is where I find a lot of people seem to get the most confused and where there's a lot of the conflicting narratives and people saying, well, someone lied here, they made this up, or that sort of thing. What exactly happened that led to the development of the nation state of Israel?

[30:14] Guy Golan: The state of Israel was established the same way that half of the nations in the world were established after World War one. And after World war two, post colonialism, the French and the British lost their empires and they controlled everything. Right? So, you know, before Israel, the state was under british mandate, it was under british control. And before that, before world war. Before the victory of World War one, the Turks conquered the state of Israel for a very long time. And before them, we had the Persians and the Romans and all that. But going back to World War one, World War two, after those wars, the French and the British divided up their empires and created 100 new nations. Right? They created a new nation called Jordan, and they gave it to a tribe from Saudi Arabia. Not native people at all. They created a new country called Iraq. They took areas where Shiites and Sunnis and Kurds lived separately. And they said, you are now one nation. They created a new country called Pakistan and a new country called India. So they created a bunch of new nations all across Africa, which used to be former colonies. So one of the dozens of nations were created after World War one. After World War two was Israel. I don't hear anybody arguing on whether or not Kenya has a right to exist as a nation or if Jordan has a right to exist as a nation or if Iraq has a right to exist as a nation. The only nation for people who are questioning the right of the nation to exist is Israel. Amazing.

[31:53] Russell: Yeah, it's, you know, the world War two and it's. And what happened with world War two and its consequences around the globe were still feeling the effects. I believe that there's been a lot of mythologizing about world War two itself, not only from just holocaust denial to just people saying, well, like, the British won, the French won. I don't think they won. They won in that they kept their countries. But the only two victors from world War two were communism and western liberal democracy. The imperialism of Britain fell, the imperialism of Japan fell, the fascism of Italy was destroyed, and the national socialism of Germany was destroyed. It's like we have this historical event, probably the most important event that brings us to current day for a lot of geopolitics. And we've muddied the waters on who was the winners and who was the losers. And it. And it exasperates these modern day issues that we have.

[33:01] Guy Golan: Listen, World War two is the worst period in humankind. I mean, in world War one, World War two, you had, you know, tens of millions of people who died in China and in Russia and in Europe and all across the world. So horrible time. So, you know, a lot of people these days feel like they're living in the worst period ever. Right? These are difficult days, not just for the jewish people. These are difficult days for everybody all across the western world. But guess what? We've never had it better. And when you compare the, you know, the decades that preceded us and especially in the early part of the 20th century. We're lucky to be where we are, no doubt.

[33:41] Russell: You know, in preparation for this interview, I actually put out a couple of tweets out and mentioned a couple of people I know saying, hey, I'm going to be talking with Guy Gulan and talking about his book. And I've been podcasting now since 2020. And this was the first episode I've ever done where I had people actually in my personal life that I told about actually come back at me over it. Are you going to ask him about the maniacal state of Israel? Even this morning I had someone say, are you going to bring up on your show about the fact that Israel is blowing up kids with pagers and walkie talkies in other countries? And there's a lot of emotion packed into this question. And I've told people I'm very green on this. That's why I wanted to read the book, get you onto the show and talk about it, because I am very green. But it's the only episode I've done so far. And I've talked about trans issues. I've talked about immigration, I've talked about liberalism, and I've talked about I had a communist on the show at one point and never had anyone ever really come at me over it until it came to this episode. Here I was told that I was a pawn of the, I was a good goy, whatever that means.

[35:16] Guy Golan: Okay. You're a mouthpiece for the zionist. Well, Russell, again, look, first of all, wars are terrible. That's number one, right? But if you had an episode on the syrian civil war, right, where half a million civilians died and were targeted by the syrian regime, do you think you would have the same response? Half a million. Israel went to war with Gaza after the Hamas soldiers, soldiers, right, terrorists, crossed the border, slaughtered 1200 israeli civilians. They targeted 1200 israeli civilians. They raped, gang raped dozens of teenage girls who were attending a peace festival, and they took hundreds of hostages, hundreds of hostages back to Gaza, what exactly do you think the people in Toronto would do if 2000 terrorists from Syracuse, New York, would cross the border and do the same thing? Would you not retaliate? Now, you have to understand, Israel is fighting a terrorist organization that is embedding itself under tunnels, under schools, under civilian populations, and they're using their own people as human shields. Look, when western armies fight jihadist movement, they're fighting with both of their arms behind their head. Because look at the irony of this. Israel is trying to protect palestinian civilians, and Hamas wants as many casualties from their own people, because amazingly enough, that helps them with public opinion in the west. Look at this irony again. I'm going to repeat the same question. Where are the people who are so outraged are so concerned about human life in the Middle east? Where are you when it comes to Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Sudan, Lebanon that's been completely occupied by the Shiites from Iran? You're silent. Why? Because your concern is not by human rights. It's about the state of Israel and its right to exist.

[37:21] Russell: And, I mean, I agree with that. I look at, you know, we see it even in the catholic community, too. You know, there's. Catholicism as well, is being targeted by jihadists across the world. And you'll hear about things where, you know, Christians and Catholics and villages and poor countries are butchered and no one really seems to care all that much about it. It's just you, you know, it's just, well, it's just another day, I guess. What would you say? And again, I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, but these are things I've heard, and I figure I got an expert here. There are people I've heard who said that, that. That there are jewish people in America and around the world that are funding these attacks on Jews in order to secure more money for Israel, for a military, Aidan, that sort of thing. Like, it's very conspiratorial thinking, but it's big enough that I hear it often enough, unfortunately.

[38:23] Guy Golan: Russell, you need to get some new friends.

[38:25] Russell: They're not friends. They're people I see online.

[38:27] Guy Golan: Yeah, well, you know. Yeah, it's a. You know, online is an interesting place where there are a lot of interesting people. Look, you know, it's. That's some. That's some stupid shit. You know, I don't think anybody in the world from the jewish people would ever want the tragedy of October 7. I mean, what if you saw the videos and there is raw footage that the israeli government put online so everybody can see. See the atrocities, see how they butchered women and children and decapitated fathers in front of their children. If you saw that, I don't think any of those conspiracies hold any truth.

[39:07] Russell: Well, I will tell you this. And so I haven't mentioned it before, but I actually will be going to Israel at the end of October to actually go to the Nova music festival attack site and hear stories from survivors and. And stuff like that. So that's actually on my list of things that I'm going to be doing. I haven't actually said anything about it until now. Because while we're looking at potentially an airline strike and things like that, and so the plans haven't been solidified yet. But I've heard enough about this that I figured I would actually go to Israel and go see and talk with people, and I'll be with a group of other people that are doing the same thing.

[39:54] Guy Golan: Well, God bless you for that. And for anybody out there who really hates the Israel and the jewish people, my best piece of advice to you is instead of arguing, yelling and fighting and screaming, have a conversation. Have a conversation with israeli people and hear their side of the story. The Middle east is very complicated. And it's not like the jewish side is 100% correct and blameless and the palestinian side is, you know, all at fault. This is complex stuff. The Middle east is complex. You know, we have a joke in the Middle east that everything is to blame, either the French or the British, who carved up the Middle east in the strangest way and put a lot of people who don't fit together together. The Middle east is complicated. The Middle east has a lot of different personalities. And, you know, it's not a black and white thing. And this is where the real disservice of those super leftist university professors come with their post colonial garbage to the classroom. They're skipping the minutiae. They're skipping the details, and the details are that the Middle east is very complicated.

[41:02] Russell: I've heard a lot of these politicians and professors. They've proposed what they call a two state solution. What do you think about the idea of a two state solution?

[41:16] Guy Golan: So the two state solutions started out in the late 1980s and then early 1990s. I supported it 100%. I didn't mention I actually worked early on in my twenties in israeli politics. I worked for the Labour party. I was a political consultant. I worked with Shimon Peres and Ehud Barak. We supported the two state solution. We had the western thinking that ultimately all the Arabs want to do is have their own homeland and live in peace and raise their children and all that. But it didn't work out. Israel started withdrawing. First, Israel brought its enemy from Tunisia to Israel, Yasser Arafat and the PLO, and Israel gave them guns. Then Israel empowered them to control their own territories. And what we got in return is violence and terrorism. In 2005, Israel withdrew completely from the Gaza Strip. Israeli soldiers and police officers took, kicked out jewish settlers from their own homes. This is the first time since the Holocaust since people in uniform kick Jews out of their own home. This happened in Israel. The government of Israel in 2005 removed every single settler from Gaza, and they said to the palestinian people, here you go, Gaza Strip, turn it into Singapore. And what happened right after that is the Hamas took over. They threw the PLO officials from the rooftops. They shot him in the head. And this Hamas movement, which is a jihadist terror organization sponsored by the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood, took over. And ever since then, they've been trying to kill Jews. So the two state solution is a western fantasy. Nobody in the Middle east believes in the two state solution. Not the Palestinians, not the israeli people, especially not October 7. The only people who still speak about the two state solution are people who are not familiar with the state of Israel, with the territories, and with the dynamics of the reality on the ground.

[43:19] Russell: I know your book focuses a lot in the United States, but I am from Canada, so I just wanted to get your opinion. Canada has been talking about settling 2000 refugees or more from Gaza in Canada. What risks do you think comes with that?

[43:37] Guy Golan: Well, look at what happened in Europe. Angela Merkel decided to bring a million refugees from the Middle east into Europe, and that happened about ten years ago during the civil war in Syria, maybe a little longer, 15 years ago. And what we see is that integration in Europe has failed, and you have a lot of violence on the street, and the so called far right is winning one election after another. So, you know, ultimately, immigration only happens with integration. And the question is, will people who come from highly traditional societies land in Toronto, land in Quebec, land in Montreal, and accept the western liberal values of the canadian people? Time will tell.

[44:27] Russell: Now, going back directly to the book, what was your favorite part of the book to write?

[44:33] Guy Golan: Well, our purpose in writing this book is to write a very easy to understand book. It's only 200 pages with very large fonts, and it has, I believe, 18 chapters in it. I wrote it. I co wrote it with a friend of mine who's a university professor, historian. This book has zero propaganda in it. I challenge anybody to show me one piece of propaganda in it. It's written by historian and a social scientist. We tell the story of the difference between the two tribes, the two jewish tribes, and then reflect how the tensions between the two reflect on the global tension between nationalism, religion on one hand, and globalization on the other.

[45:19] Russell: If you had to say that there was one specific takeaway from the book that anyone that reads it should be able to take away from the book, what do you think that is?

[45:27] Guy Golan: It's really. It's a big question for the west. You know, what does the west stand for? And what is the west willing to fight for? Israel is a thorn in the west because it is the only nation that is proud of both its religion and its nationality. When is the last time anybody, any nation in Europe or in the western world was proud of either one of theirs?

[45:53] Russell: Now, with the book being written, is it written more for. I know it's written for both people in Israel and american jewish people to read. Who do you think would gain the most benefit from reading it?

[46:07] Guy Golan: This book is the main target audience for Christians.

[46:10] Russell: Okay?

[46:11] Guy Golan: It's for Christians. It's for people who, just like you, who hear about Israel all the time, and they're like, you know what? I can't trust anything I hear on CNN. I can't trust anything I hear, you know, on Fox News. Where can I get just facts and history without all the spin? That's why we wrote the book.

[46:29] Russell: If you had to. If you had. I know, I understand, like, you wrote the book for christians. But if there was a main message for christians in the book, what would you summarize that message to be for the christian readers?

[46:44] Guy Golan: Yeah. That Christians and Jews share a common fate and a common outcome. And we have a lot in common.

[46:52] Russell: Do you plan on writing any more books in the future in regards to this topic, or is this the kind of the magna magnum opus?

[46:59] Guy Golan: I think this is the one for me. Most of my writings are in the academic world. I write about politics and social media and governments. But this is my first popular press book, and I think that anybody who will pick it up will really enjoy it.

[47:14] Russell: Couple more questions and then we'll wrap up. But you just said that your background is a lot more in social media. How do you think social media itself has influenced Israel and the west in regards to these topics you wrote about?

[47:30] Guy Golan: Yeah, it's a great question, Russell. If you look at where people get their news from, well, people under the age of 30 get their news from TikTok. And what we know is that the content curated on TikTok is informed by algorithms. And those algorithms have an agenda, and that's the agenda of the Chinese Communist Party. So when you look at content that is either pro or anti Israel, you see that the anti Israel content wins by far. Like, 80% of content about Israel on TikTok is anti Israel. And it's pushing all the narratives that you discussed previously. And again, as I explained before, the real challenge of the Middle east, and even for the most even minded intellectuals out there is it's really, really complicated. How do you explain something so complicated as a Middle east and religion in geopolitics and nationalism. In a 15 2nd tick tock reel.

[48:29] Russell: After October 7, when Israel struck back, I noticed that there was at least one account and I noticed that it was the same guy. And he was, he seemed to have died about six times in Palestine in different situations. And then his friend died, and then it was his mother that died. And there's people going on and on and on saying, wow, look what Israel's doing. And I was like, well, isn't this guy been in like ten different videos now where he's either died or he's close to death or something like that? And do you think that there's just as much of a propaganda war on social media as there is a physical war in the country?

[49:12] Guy Golan: Absolutely. The modern battlefield, you know, happens in the minds of people, it happens on social media. Right. So every war is fought on online and on the ground. And as you look to the future of warfare, it doesn't matter where in the world it will be, it's going to be impacted by AI and a lot of de fakes. So AI allows us to make fake videos of people's voices, of people's sounds. And in the future, you will not be able to differentiate between the person sitting across from you and an AI bot. It's going to be really, really challenging. And us as audience members, we're going to have no way of knowing who to trust.

[49:55] Russell: Do you have any other topics that we didn't cover today that you'd like to bring up before we wrap up?

[50:01] Guy Golan: No, I think we covered many things. You know, these are all fascinating conversations. And again, my main message everybody out there is, you know, Israel, Arabs in the Middle east. It's really, really complicated. And before you rush out to support one side or the other, try to get into the details and listen to both sides and be even minded about it.