Explore a world of polar bears and icebergs, or cross the Atlantic to forgotten corners of the Caribbean. You need the right spirit, but absolutely no previous seafaring experience is necessary.
Explore a world of polar bears and icebergs, or cross the Atlantic to forgotten corners of the Caribbean. You need the right spirit, but absolutely no previous seafaring experience is necessary.
Peter We're specialist travel writers and we've spent half a lifetime exploring every corner of the world.
Felice So we want to share with you some of our extraordinary experiences and the amazing people we've met along the way.
Felice This week we're taking a look at adventure sailing for beginners. The majority of European first-timers head for Mediterranean flotilla holidays, where they spend a week learning the ropes before joining a convoy of small yachts to go island-hopping either around Greece or the Balearics.
Peter But we're going in at the deep end on much larger ocean-going vessels that can venture as far north as the Arctic Circle, where they can explore a world of polar bears and icebergs. Or you can go across the Atlantic to forgotten corners of the Caribbean. You need the right spirit, but absolutely no previous seafaring experience is necessary. We met up with career adventurer, Bruce Jacobs, who owns sailing holidays operator, Rubicon3. Bruce Jacobs it's really good to have you on the show today. Where are you at the moment?
Bruce I'm in Portsmouth, on the south coast of England.
Peter Ok, so that's not the big sailing adventure that we're talking about today. That's where it all starts from, is it?
Bruce Yes, that's where we're based. So we run these large kind of round-the-world expedition sailing yachts. There's actually only so many places that you can be based with that type of yacht, because you need enough of the heavy lift and the heavy industry to be able to service the yacht. So really, there's three places in England… Falmouth, Portsmouth and Glasgow in the UK where you can base these yachts. So we're quite limited.
Peter So how big are the yachts?
Bruce They're each 18 metres, so 60-foot yachts, they're the first generation of the clipper round-the-world race yachts, which began back in 1996. So they're really like high-powered cruising yachts, I would say, really solidly built ocean-going yachts designed to withstand anything. So they're ideal for the types of trips that we run.
Felice How many do you have?
Bruce We have four now, which is quite enough. We'd obviously like more as well, but each one I think is like a mini universe in itself – or like a remote house – and trying to maintain and run and look after each one of those when they're only with us in total for maybe eight or nine weeks of the year. The rest of the time they're working their way around the world, so i's quite an operation, even just to keep them going.
Felice What sort of facilities do you have on the yacht?
Bruce Well, everything really. Obviously, they're designed…people went for way around the world on them, so they're actually very spacious inside with headroom of about eight foot which is very unusual for a cruising yacht, and big accommodation areas. There's a large galley where people can make their meals and an accompanying saloon on it. It's actually very warm and it's comfortable, it's very safe, but would you describe it as industrial? Maybe not quite, but it's fit for purpose. It's designed to go to the polar regions and to Iceland and to cross oceans and all the rest of that. You're in your own little kind of world once you're on these yachts, completely self-contained, self-sufficient, you can make your own electricity, you can make your own water and just kind of head off to wherever you want to go in the world.
Peter So if I want to come on one of your holidays, do I have to be a really experienced sailor?
Bruce No, not at all. So the whole ethos of Rubicon3 is helping non-sailors experience adventures at sea. When I was growing up, I was transfixed by the books of The Famous Five and Swallows and Amazons. Funny enough on your question, the one that really always, even to this day, stays with me 40 years on, I can't quite remember the name of it, but We Didn't Mean to Go to Sea. The children accidentally sail off across the North Sea and have this most wonderful adventure, and to this day I still think of that when we get new people joining and very often not really knowing what they're going to expect. As much as we might describe it to them in advance, it's only really once you've gone out into the open sea that you really understand it.
We teach them everything they need to know from the very basic nautical terms so they can work their way around the boat, to the principles of sailing and how to get out there and to make the boat move. What makes it unusual is that as a non-sailor, you can become a fully participating member of an adventure going off to places that most experienced sailors can't get to.
Felice Our main sailing experience has been a week on a flotilla where we had a few lessons before and then we were just let loose with our children in Greece, around the Greek islands, without any sort of sat nav. And we had no idea really what we were doing.
Peter It was terrifying, frankly.
Felice We hadn't really been taught enough and there was no one with us. I mean, with yours, there'll be someone with you?
Bruce Oh, yes. We have a highly experienced skipper who would have done the best part of 100,000 miles and been at sea for 10 or 15 years. Most of them have circumnavigated, and they also have a professional mate with them as well, who's also a professional sailor, but building their skills and experience as they go, but they’ve also have been working professionally usually for three or four years.
It's a very interesting one heading out to sea without having been trained. It's a bit like when you go out into the mountains or something – it's fine while it's good, but the sea is a powerful entity. I think people forget and become complacent about the power of that force and what can be done to it. So I have my own views on sending people out to sea with five days’ training, but we're probably at the very opposite end of the scale of that super high class training and support and safety and stuff.
Peter Well, that sounds good. So how did this all come about? You've always been a sailor since you were a child?
Bruce No, I was when I was young, I was...I think the only word for it is forced to sail. I was sent off to Datchet Reservoir by Heathrow Airport and put into these awful flat-fronted boats called Mirrors, and miserably worked my way up and down this reservoir, regularly falling in because I would never describe myself as a natural sailor at all.
Then in my early teens I was sent off up to Scotland, to the north of Scotland, to a boarding school up there and was again forced to sail. And it's bitterly cold up there. We were wearing these sailing uniforms which must have been designed and built in the 1950s or ‘60 or something, and all kind of scratchy and smelly and horrible. And if anything is designed to put you off sailing when you're new to it, it's one sailing in the cold and the wet, and secondly being made to wear silly costumes and stuff.
So over the years I did my sailing qualifications and I'd sail for leisure and fun, but nothing really more than that. Then in my late 20s, early 30s, I did the very unoriginal running away from everything sensible – from the mortgage and the long-term relationship and the very successful and well-paid job.
Peter What was your job?
Bruce I used to work in newspapers. I did various things growing up. I always had a fairly rebellious and independent streak, I would say, and tried various of my own businesses and in my late teens and early 20s, ranging from the South London second-hand tyre market through to… I opened a bar, which I think most people in their early twenties would have thought ‘we could get together and we could run a fantastic bar’. And then of course, as with so many things, reality kicks in.
I know so many people in my type of world who've tried similar things, and I think it's that desire to be the master of your own destiny, to be able to make your own way and to be shaping your own destiny rather than just following and taking instructions. And no skippers I know are very good at taking instructions, I have to say. I know that now because I tried to give them instructions, so I come from the other side of things now.
Then I found myself heading off across Russia and Kazakhstan, went across Siberia and Mongolia overland. So it was a fantastic way to do it without any real kind of detailed planned itinerary. I just needed to really get away. I'd never travelled much before that. I'd kind of been working since I was 17, 18, really, one way or another. I just really needed to experience something different, to push myself in different ways to find a different way of doing things – or a different way to interact with myself and with other people, really.
So I headed off to the most remote parts that I could imagine really, and it was fantastic. It's the same as when you head far out to sea – it allows you to reset and rebuild and restructure yourself in so many ways, because there are none of the societal structures and supports that we get so used to having around us. None of the influences or constraints that we're faced by having societal norms, of how we must act and when we have to go to work and how we have to dress and all the rest of it.
Once you're out in the wilds, whether it's on land or at sea, it's all gone. You have to rebuild your relationship with yourself in many ways, a lot of our crews will find this too, and that's really what happened to me. The trouble is, what I didn't find was any more money coming in. So eventually I did what so many people have done and ran off to sea without a plan, there was no intent to go and work on the sea, but that was the path that opened up for me.
Peter So on that first big adventure, you just went by yourself or did you go on expedition? How did you do this?
Bruce No, I went with an overland company, and I think was the only time they ever ran this route because it proved too extreme. But we went from St Petersburg in Russia, right across the continent there over the course of…I think it was four months. But every day, I mean you are so far removed from any sort of tourists or even often kind of societal habitations. You're right out of the desert and the wilds, you regularly sink into sticky bogs and mud and you dig your way out and put tank tracks under the wheels and force your way through and stuff. So then you’re just finding firewood in the evenings to make a fire and cook your food on and so on.
Once I'd got to Beijing in China, I then struck off solo, going down through the inner lands of Vietnam and across India and so on, until eventually I arrived in South Africa, where you can't really go much further south without getting on a boat. So that's pretty much what I did: got on a boat.
Felice But on this trip, did anything go wrong?
Bruce Do you know, it's an interesting phrase: ‘did it go wrong?’ We discuss this on the boats a lot as well. The whole purpose of heading off on this type of trip is actually, is it not, to face challenges and to experience things that take you out of your comfort zone? So we would have minor things. I would describe how we would gradually sink into a bog and have to dig our way out, which is all great when you're covered in mud, except that there's no chance of a wash or a shower for maybe the next two weeks or so. So you become quite a quite a bizarre-looking creature and quite stinky, too, I have to say.
But I think one of the one of the incidents that always really struck me is we arrived at this town called Aral, and I don't know, you may have heard of the Aral Sea right in the middle of Kazakhstan – it's this extraordinary place where, if you can imagine taking a fishing port from the south coast of England, something like Falmouth, and just removing all the sea and turning it into the middle of a desert, this is what Aral is. And the Russians over there, during the times of the Soviet Union, had diverted all the water to irrigate their fields and their crops, and it reaches a catastrophic point of no return and the Aral Sea just died and became this desert.
You head kind of six or seven miles out from this harbour that's sitting in the sand and you arrive – or you did arrive then, it's gone now – at these huge cargo ships and fishing boats just sat out there in the desert. So it's a very extraordinary place. But the population are still there and of course, have received no support or no help at all. So when we arrived there, it very quickly turned into a very hostile, very aggressive environment.
There's a huge alcohol problem there and desperate poverty. And it's one of those real clashes where we don't really have a purpose to be there except for our own self-fulfilment or tourism or whatever it is. These people are seeing a source of money and a sense of self-awareness to be seen in the state that they were really – it was a pretty hairy escape really, where we were locked on, locked ourselves in the vehicle. There were people jumping on the vehicle and trying to drive off – quite, quite extraordinary really.
Peter Yes, it sounds a pretty bizarre experience. So having got South Africa, then you've got yourself on a boat, you end up in the States?
Bruce No. So there I was sailing and I was chatting to the skipper and explained that I was basically out of money and did he have any thoughts of how I could make some money. And he was like, ‘You can skipper this boat,’ he says, ‘because I'm leaving and we need someone to take over.’
So in short order I did that and started actually teaching other people to sail and we would work our way right around the Horn of Africa and up the east coast of Africa. I worked there for about a year and then gradually in that very unplanned way, became a full-time professional sailor. I found then what I guess I'd been looking for many years, which was the relationship I have with the sea is something that fulfils something in me that I guess I've always been searching for – that kind of solitude and the space and the time and the honesty. It's an incredibly honest environment being out at to sea. There's no hiding, there's no there's no cause or value from explaining why something's gone wrong; it's either worked or it hasn't, and you’re either are succeeding or you're not.
And I very quickly found that is where I love to be. And so I worked out there for a while, and then I worked around various countries in Europe, all the various jobs that you can do as a professional sailor – from deliveries to charter work and all the rest of it.
Felice And one of the private yachts you worked on belonged to a US diplomat at the Vatican?
Bruce Yes, so a bit further down the line…so having worked as a sailor for many years, I then realised that I couldn't fix the boats nearly well enough. And so I headed off to the US to spend a year training in marine systems – so that as well as actually sailing the boats, I could properly maintain and repair them. After doing that course I then got the job as engineer on a large sailing superyacht which was owned by the US Ambassador to the Vatican. It was his private yacht and we would help him entertain himself and his guests as he sailed around various nice parts of the world and kind of got an insight into a different life. That is, it's quite something.
Peter And then you met your wife along the line here?
Bruce Yes, just before I went to sea on that boat, we met in the States and 12 weeks later I woke her up at 6am just before heading to sea for the first time on this boat. And as you know, it's such a corny situation, isn't it? But I knew that I as far as I knew, I was about to go to sea for seven or eight months without seeing her again. So I thought, I need to ask this lovely lady to marry me. So I woke her up and it was all ridiculous but she was stunned and said yes. I had my flight to catch 40 minutes later, so I jumped on the plane and flew down to the boat.
I'd asked her to marry me in Newport in Rhode Island. I got down to the boat and the captain said, ‘There's been a change of plan and we're going to turn around and sail Newport, Rhode Island.’ So having done this huge romantic, ‘Will you marry me? I'm off to sea,’ about two weeks later there I was back right back with her. The best laid plans and all the rest of it…
Peter I bet she was pleased.
Bruce I think we were both stunned really, we had to almost start again. But it's ten years ago now and we're still very happily married. So something went well.
Felice And that was the same year as you were caught in a hurricane?
Bruce That's right. So that part of the state is quite regularly hit by hurricanes. You know, they come up, they work their way up through the Bahamas and through the southern states and then up the Eastern seaboard. That year, I was on watch when a Hurricane Sandy, it was, came through.
Being told you have to be on a yacht at sea to face a hurricane is a pretty nerve-wracking experience. You know, you don't really know what to expect. It's easy to overthink it because you're still close to shore. So the actual sea state itself, you're not expecting to be huge, but the force of the winds is so huge that if anything does start to go wrong, you have really no chance of sorting things out at all. But as professional sailors, when you're told you need to be on there, you need to be on there.
Bruce So I was sitting there and keeping watch and the winds of 60, 70 miles an hour, and it was fairly terrifying. In the middle of it, completely randomly at about 3am I guess, our time – or 4am, I got a call from this very British voice saying, ‘Hi, it's the BBC here, and we've heard that you're on this yacht. Would you do an interview with us?’ It was completely surreal to be suddenly talking to the BBC and before you know it, you say yes, and they say, ‘Right, hold fire.’ Literally 10 seconds later, you hear the beeps and the guy introducing the fact that now we have Bruce Jacobs and suddenly you're live on TV and receiving text messages from your friends saying, ‘What on earth are you doing live on TV in a hurricane?’
Felice What happened to the boat in the hurricane? Does it ride the waves?
Bruce Yes. That's the job of the crew is to keep it positioned in a certain way so that you obviously take it into a very sheltered place. So the thing that boats don't like is the massive sea state, more than anything, and it's the distance that wind blows over the water that produces the sea state. So you position a boat like that.
I think we were about 100 metres offshore. So the sea, the sea state itself just doesn't have time to build up into anything. This is a large boat, but the force of the wind is extraordinary. Things either are or are close to ripping off and you can see other boats on shore where they've come loose from their mooring smashing into the shore and stuff. It's a very extraordinary thing to be in wind of that strength.
Peter So bringing us back to your present venture with sailing holidays. Where do you go on these sailing holidays?
Bruce Really once a year we sit down and we bring out a big chart and we look at areas that give us that sense of excitement and we pick that and we say, ‘Right, these are the places we need to go this year.’ The aim is very much to enable people to sail to areas where you can't go to on a flotilla or on sunsail or wherever those types of boats… which are wonderful in themselves, but they just can't go. There are so many places in the world that are not accessible to commercial sailing, partly because of the rules and regulations surrounding the yachts and what's required for them to get there, and the number of crew, but also just the type of yacht that you require. You have to have an incredibly seaworthy yacht.
So we do a lot of expeditions up in the high latitudes. We'll spend a lot of our summer up above the above the Arctic Circle in Norway, going right up to Svalbard, right up to the edge of the pack ice, an incredible world of polar bears and glaciers and icebergs and stuff.
We spend quite a lot of time in Iceland, which is very rugged and very wild; the Faroe Islands; and then next year we're back to Greenland again, which is a truly extraordinary place. And then in the winter months, we head across the Atlantic and we will go to the further reaches of the Caribbean, to places like Belize and Honduras, up to New York, and then up to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. So many places, but with the aim of each place being it has to be somewhere wild and unusual and fascinating. And a large part of our experience is to enable people to go ashore.
Peter How many people do you take on each yacht?
Bruce On each yacht we have nine people, one skipper and one mate. So it's very much a teaching environment as well. There are no passengers, so everybody who comes on board will be navigating, planning, cooking, trimming sails. It's a very immersive adventure.
Felice If someone turns up, maybe a couple ,and then one person in that couple decides they hate sailing – what happens then? Can they just be the cook?
Bruce Yes, of course. It's an incredibly gentle and supportive environment on board. So one of the things I was absolutely clear on when we set this up was that I did not want this to be a male, aggressive, domineering environment. It really needs to be very gentle and very supportive to enable everyone to join. Our average customer age is actually 50 years old, and more than half of our customers are females, and for the sailing industry, that's unheard of.
Peter Mostly solo?
Bruce Yes. So I think to answer the question before, I think couples have generally worked out beforehand whether they might want to come sailing or not, and one will and will be fascinated and addicted to the idea and the other one will be truly horrified by the prospect and would no more come on one of our yachts than anything else. That exactly equates to myself my wife – she would be horrified to have to ever come anywhere near what we do. She likes a big large luxury motor yacht…not if she ever gets a chance to go on it…whereas I love the wild and the adventure and the things that happen out at sea.
Peter And those nine people won't have met before – everyone gets on, okay?
Bruce Yes, they do. I think anyone who signs up to these things is so brave because not only are you giving up your authority to a skipper and mate you don't know, you've got all the kind of physical questions, you know, how tough is it going to be? How hard is it going to be? But also, you are committing to living in quite close quarters with eight or nine, ten other people who you've never met before for two weeks. And especially if you're on an ocean passage, it's not like you can just decide: I'm going to get off, this is not for me. So it's quite something to do.
But what we find is actually the opposite of what people are scared of or worried about, and that's they form these extraordinary friendships. You've really strong bonds amongst so many of the crew. And I think because, one, there are quite a homogenous group of people. So because the average age is from about 45 to 65, a lot of people are in the same life stage anyway. And the motivations that have brought them to suddenly find themselves on a yacht in Svalbard or somewhere, that narrows you down to a certain type of person anyway.
You know, one of the things we always notice is when you're at work, for instance, you could spend two or three weeks with someone new to the team and you might just about know their name, you might have said hello or whatever. This is like a super-fast-track accelerated get to know you process where in the course of 12 days you would have seen that person laugh, possibly cry, being as tired as they can be, be as excited as they can be, and you just get to know someone so well and in such an honest and unpolished environment. And the friendships are extraordinary that are built up.
Peter So do they sometimes go beyond friendships? You actually get relationships built?
Bruce We have had a marriage on board…the marriage itself wasn't on board, but they did later marry. And yes, there are there are numerous couples now who have come together as a result of Rubicon3 and we love that. You know, it's amazing. So I'd like to say we love the whole Rubicon3 community anyway, but gradually you're seeing young families form and all the rest of it – so it's very special for us.
Felice A great holiday for singles then?
Bruce It is in many ways. It's a it is a fantastic holiday for singles, but, you know, on a different way as well. It's quite interesting because travelling solo for many people is quite hard. There can be a bit of a stigma attached to it and there can be lots of extra costs attached to it. What makes these types of adventures so special is one that everyone comes solo. But secondly, you're working as part of a team. So all those things that can make solo travel difficult are just removed and not in a manufactured way, through pure necessity, and I think that's what makes it so attractive to people travelling solo as well.
Peter Is there a single room supplement?
Bruce There is only a single room. Everybody sleeps in one large accommodation area.
Felice Like a dormitory?
Bruce Exactly. So I do often describe it as like adult boarding school. On the first day everyone is very polite, no one would ever think to take the last beer or the last whatever, and then you start to hear laughter during the night. Then in the morning everyone's laughing and joking. There's games being played on each other and it very quickly becomes a very fun and just very unusual environment for adults. How often or when do you find yourself sleeping in a large dormitory with other people out at sea in a different part of the world?
Peter So this takes you back to Gordonstoun, your original schooling in Scotland, which of course is where King Charles went to school.
Bruce That's right.
Peter He went there and he hated it. Did you like it or hate it?
Bruce I think mixed views. I'd love to go there now. I think older you know, they always say that school wasted on the young, don't they? To have the chance of all those opportunities, you know, out in the mountains and diving and sailing and all sorts of things would be amazing. I think it was a tough environment to be in, very different. I know for a fact it's very different then to how it is now.
Back in my day, it was the last of the old money families who were there. So everyone…or a large number...had a parent who was Lord this or Baroness and it was so extraordinary. It was just bizarre, really. They'd all been at boarding school since they were seven or eight years old, they had largely been sent there and left there by their parents. So it was quite an extraordinary collection and quite a subculture. You could easily say that they designed Lord of the Flies from having been to the school then and designed it and stuff, but also amazing friendships. I recently met someone from my year there who I haven't seen in 35 years, and it's like we'd never stopped meeting, really. You build some very, very strong relationships at a school like that. For some, it's a great place.
Peter Not for King Charles, I don't think.
Bruce No, I don't think he liked it so much. But what a burden to carry with you as a young guy growing up. Life's hard enough, isn't it, I think, growing up without having to deal with all of that as well. Good luck to him.
Felice That was the past. What about the future? How do you see your business going? Will you expand or stay the same?
Bruce Well, so one of the things that was very great frustration…we were just about to get going before COVID is I'm very focused now on expanding this to younger, disadvantaged people. It was always part of our DNA that we were going to do that. When we first started, we used to run scholarships actually for young adults whose lives hadn't quite panned out, how they expected and to give them a new chance or a new experience. For various reasons, it kind of didn't prove to be quite the right fit and mix there.
But we have just signed up with one of the inner London schools, a very famous one called the Michaela School, run by a lady called Katharine Birbalsingh, who's a prominent educationist. It's based in Wembley, north London. She takes these inner city children from really the most deprived regions and puts them through this environment of really, let's be honest, quite high discipline, exceptional high expectations and standards. A large number of them go on to Oxford and Cambridge and it's just wonderful, I find inspiring and fantastic place.
So we had just kind of got this whole program in place where we're going to start taking them out to sea and gradually build up, to take them to Norway and Iceland. And then COVID hit and just smashed it, just destroyed everything. So we are just now starting to get back. Our next big thing is to start opening this up to people who would never have a chance to do something like this.
Felice Can families come?
Bruce Yes, we do quite a few family charters. So what we would often find is because our boats take nine people, we often get two families coming together and it becomes, again, I've touched on it before, this wonderful Swallows and Amazons environment. So you'll have four adults and it's brilliant for them. One because they're sailing off somewhere very exciting and fun and they've got the more adult company and then the pack of children.
We do the family charters in a much more kind of relaxed area. So there's a place up in Norway called the Lofoten Islands, which you can only really say if Disney made a sailing ground, this is what it would look like. It's stunningly beautiful, really easy sailing, but loads of kayaking and fishing and hiking up hills and the pack of kids will just charge off and we'll help them learn their trade, their craft skills and all the rest of it. And it's spectacular. I love I love, love, love doing the family trip, to see children, especially, having their eyes opened and this kind of magical world presented to them…as a there's such an innocence to it, such a joy in it.
I think ‘adventure’ as a term is used very easily these days. You talk about an adventure holiday, but actually for most adventure holidays out there you might be being driven around on a safari or something, and what is the element of adventure? It has to have that level of uncertainty, that level of risk to an extent to make it a true adventure, a true challenge. And our customers will join us,
Everyone’s definition of what's adventurous for them will obviously vary, and there is unquestionably an element of tiredness, fear, all the things that you don't necessarily highlight. You know, it's not that you hide it, but the things that people are willing to risk and to take on and will find themselves experiencing out there. I think for us, for me, one of the most fulfilling parts of this business, of this thing that we do, is seeing people who often join us really quite shy, quite reserved, maybe really having lost confidence in themselves, especially they spent years bringing up children or whatever it is, their natural abilities and skills maybe haven't had the light of day for many years other than what they've had to do for their career or as a parent.
And seeing them two, three or four days later helming a round the world race boat at night under the stars with big sails up, or hauling themselves to the front and showing really true courage and fortitude to haul down sails as a storm blows over. It's a very, very special part for me – that human element in seeing people develop is what makes it unique for us.
Felice The people want to find out more. How do they get in touch with you?
Bruce We have our website, which is called Rubicon3Adventure.com, and that's with a with a number 3. And they can obviously then through there they can email us or they can call us. We're there pretty much 24 hours a day because the boats are operating 24 hours a day. And we're always very willing just to have a chat with people. This is something very unusual, it's not something that you would have likely done much of before. So we always encourage people just to call up and just start talking, start telling us what types of things excite you or what your fears are and we chat away for often about 20 minutes and find something that just really is going to work for them.
Peter Bruce Jacobs, thanks very much indeed for coming on the show and we look forward to hearing more of your adventures in the future.
Bruce It's been a pleasure. Thanks, guys.
Felice That's all for now. If you've enjoyed the show, please share this episode with at least one other person! Do also subscribe on Spotify, i-Tunes or any of the many podcast providers – where you can give us a rating. You can subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or any of the many podcast platforms. You can also find us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. We'd love you to sign up for our regular emails to peter@actionpackedtravel.com. Until next week, stay safe.
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