Red Herrings

Where history gets messy and the law gets loud.

Brittany and Joccoaa take turns serving up shocking crimes and unforgettable legal battles. One brings the past, the other brings the courtroom — and together, they bring the chaos.

It’s smart, a little unhinged, and full of twists you won’t see coming.

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Red Herrings

A Great Escape - Part 2

May 01, 2026 • Episode 27

0:00 | 1:00:53

Welcome to Red Herrings!

This week, Brittany continues one of the most famous prison mysteries in history that has decades of speculation, conflicting reports, and rumors that refuse to die.

Back to the case of the Anglin brothers.

Hosted by: Brittany Warren & Joccoaa Gray

Sound Engineer & Co-host: Christopher Brown

Edited by: Joccoaa Gray

If you would like to get in touch, please contact us at redherringspod@gmail.com.

Sources:

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Red Herrings. I'm Jacoa, Master's student in Law and Human Rights, host of True Crime Club Newcastle, and creator of True Crime Forum Newcastle.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hi, I'm Brittany. I have two degrees in history and 15 years experience in genealogy. We're the red herrings.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Well, well, well. What do we have here? Two red herrings and the catch of the day. Don't forget about me.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Hi, Chris!

SPEAKER_01 0:27

We're the red herrings.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

And Chris.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Welcome back to part two. In part one, we discussed how the Anglin brothers and Frank Morris escaped from Alcatraz. And now we're going to get into the details of what happened next.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

So excited. Can't wait. Can't predict this.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

I have no idea what to do. You literally, I'm not kidding. You will have no idea where this is going. Hit me now. What are your theories? What do you think is going to happen? They spent the rest of their life dressed up as women.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Theories, not fantasies. So you thought think they drowned though, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Well, I just could I couldn't imagine why the life jacket. Maybe at least one of them drowned.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

One of them went overboard. Why would the life jacket be in the water? Unless uh unless they wanted everyone to think they'd drowned and threw them in.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Oh yes. I think they got rid of Morris. They got rid of the smart one. They didn't need him. They didn't need him anymore. He'd done the hard work and now it's just the Anglins on their own together. Besties. Blood brothers.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Blood Brothers. Okay. Okay. Right. Are we ready?

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Two bad boys alone in the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Chris, we said theories, not fantasies. Yeah. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

On the night of the escape, the temperature of San Francisco Bay was estimated to be between 50 and 54 degrees Fahrenheit. Christopher, what is that in Celsius?

SPEAKER_02 1:50

That is 10 to 12 degrees Celsius.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Warm night. Huh? Warm night from England standards. Cold night from San Francisco standards.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Very cold. Certainly not freezing.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

That's balmy.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

That's really cold. I would not go in that water at all. Oh my god. Sorry guys. I'm used to the Jersey Shore, okay? American listeners will understand. I mean 12 degrees is summer hol uh Easter holidays. Everyone's at the beach. No, no, no, no. I need it to be at least like 65, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

17 degrees.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

I need it to be at least that. It's cold here, yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

I don't think the sea is ever gonna get to 17 degrees here.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

No, I mean air temperature.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Oh, okay. I'll let you off.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Medical experts consulted during the investigation concluded that full immersion in water below 55 degrees, so below 12, could lead to rapid loss of body heat, reduced muscle function, impaired swimming coordination, and hypothermia.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

It feels high to me. Right. Really? I was like, yeah, this makes sense. Let me just see what the average temperature in September specifically. September? Yeah, it'll make sense in a minute. Of is of the North Sea. Because that's when the big skinny dip happens at Jewridge Bay. And people don't hypothermalize.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Yeah, but how long are they in that for? How long are they in that water?

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Not that long, right? I mean they do they go and swim and get up to their necks and stuff. Some people do.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

So like we've gone swimming in the sea at like in that September.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

No, that it's skinny dipping, so no.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Oh, I didn't hear that. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

That's when you're naked.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Yeah, I'm aware what that means.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Yeah, I would have thought 12 was pretty hot.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Yeah, you're weird. So the average sea surface temperature of the North Sea in September typically ranges from between 12 degrees Celsius and 17, which is 50s to 60s Fahrenheit. And people ain't dying, okay?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

No, no.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

And and if you think September as well, that's like end of the summer holidays. People are probably still swimming in that sea in the summer holidays at that temperature. So I think I call bullshit. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

They're just weak in America.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Just wait, Christopher.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Philip Bergen, captain of the guards of at Alcatraz from 1946 to 1955.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Imagine that job.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

I mean, you figure they're on an island in the middle of nowhere. He just probably wouldn't wouldn't bother. You know.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Well, according to his story, they weren't.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Yeah. I just realized that he actually wasn't the captain at the time of the escape. Oh. Because the escape happened in 62, and he was captain from 46 to 55. Oh. So I I can't believe I didn't catch this earlier. I'm not sure who the captain was at the time.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

I can't believe it either.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Oh shocking. I'm so sorry. I'll do better next time.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Please do.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

He believed survival was impossible. He said that. If they went into the Shut up, please. I'm trying to talk. He said if they went into the water, they were drowned within 30 minutes. They succumbed to hypothermia.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Not if they were in a raft. If they were never in the water, they were fine. And oh no. I just asked myself as well, if they had left the raft in their life jackets, why wouldn't their bodies all of this stuff, debris, has washed up, their bodies would have, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:13

Unless they got eaten by a shark.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Unless they got eaten by a shark. Or a crocodile.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Or a crocodile.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Because they eat everything. They're like pigs.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Do they eat life jackets?

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Yes, the crocodiles I think actually would have eaten. Because there was another case where someone went missing, I'll put it in quotes, in a crocodile lake. He didn't actually was murdered, but um everyone was saying that you would never find anything, not even the wade as he was in.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

You're right. Beyond the temperature of the water, investigators examined the tidal conditions present that night. The FBI reviewed tide charts and concluded that the estimated departure window about 11 30 p.m. coincided with a westward moving tide. If the men entered the water too early, they may have been carried offshore before reaching land. If the raft failed or capsized in the main channel, strong outbound currents could have swept them toward deeper water and eventually into the Pacific Ocean.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

I don't believe that purely because everything else is in the waters around Azcaban.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

So Ascaban Sorry, where is Azcaban?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Uh San Francisco Bay. Google it. Pull up Google Maps. It's California. Oh, okay. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

For some reason I thought that's in Florida and I was like, how do they get to the Pacific Ocean? But I see now. California.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

So I think it's like north of LA.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

I'm with you.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

So is this the ocean?

SPEAKER_02 6:36

The blue thing is the ocean, yes, you can.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

No, but like, does it go out into the rest of the world? Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

When you get to the edge of the map, you fall off the middle cliff.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Right. So that's Alcatraz, and then that's the Golden Gate Bridge, then they could have been taken out like through the current through under the Pacific Ocean.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

They could have, because then as well, if it had catapsize there and the Golden Bridge is there, then I guess maybe it could have stopped the life jackets and stuff, like get caught. It could have got caught on stuff. I don't know. Okay, no, Mike don't keep that in.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

No, no. Me. I mean, you're editing. Note to Jacoa from the editor.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

We should pretend someone else edits for us.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Note to Monty. Monty. Some of the physical evidence recovered in the days after the escape was interpreted as consistent with raft failure.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

A waterproof packet containing personal items of the Anglin brothers, including addresses and photographs of their family, was discovered in the water. They died. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Okay. Come on. He's not leaving that behind. He's not.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

I guess it could have been rough weather. You lose it. Uh-huh. I don't know. Mm-hmm. I don't know. I feel like the fact you're telling us this means we've got some evidence that they survived, though. Wait a second. Maybe we'll come to it.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

What if the high IQ guy Morris offed them? Oh that's to continue on is over now. But where would their bodies be?

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Where would their bodies be?

SPEAKER_01 8:07

In a shark. In a shark.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Authorities also considered historical body recovery rates in the bay. While not every drowning victim is recovered, many are eventually located due to tidal return patterns. However, San Francisco Bay presents complex and unpredictable currents. Bodies can be drawn out beneath the Golden Gate Bridge and into the Pacific Ocean or deposited in isolated shoreline areas, which complicates recovery efforts. Investigators further noted the absence of confirmed post-escape activity. There was no evidence that Frank Morris or the Anglin brothers accessed bank accounts, applied for social security numbers, or established employment under their own names. But who would be stupid enough to do that? Right. No one would do that. Like that was the FBI's thing. It's like, oh well they didn't do anything. Yeah, well, why would they? I'm shaking my criminals their entire lives.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

They're not stupid. They're not stuck.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Clearly, Morris isn't stupid. Like Yeah, no, they're not doing that. I think they would have already had their new identity sorted before they left the prison.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

You never know.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

I mean they had the foresight to like write down a load of addresses and bring that with them.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

And photographs, yeah. I mean, I okay, they lost it, but it makes me wonder where they got those photographs.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

You probably just you're allowed to take a look at the colour.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

A vacuum cleaner. I mean an accordion.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

You may be allowed to keep personal items, right? Like photographs, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

No verifiable paper trail emerged in the months that followed. Finally, officials acknowledge the broader environmental environmental risks present. Ah, got it. Finally, officials acknowledge the broader environmental. There were sharks in the water, okay. Eleven different species of sharks inhabit those waters, including the occasional Great White.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Amazing. Nice. But then the life jackets would have been shredded. They would have been shredded. You're not getting out of your life jacket before the shark eats you. Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

No, if you see a shark.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

It's not like, oh, take off your life jacket.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Mm-mm. And then it eats everything else on you.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Though we don't actually know the condition that these life vests were in.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Fair.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

We don't know.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

It would have been reported if they were shredded. You're right. Surely.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

It had to have been, right? Altogether, the cold water, the westward moving tide, the possibility of raft failure, the strong outbound currents, absence of confirmed identity traces, and the environmental hazards of the bay, investigators concluded that death by drowning on the night of the escape remained a plausible explanation.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

I am leaning towards this. Okay, well just you wait till. Maybe that Morris went away. Okay. Uh like by himself. Okay, we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Right. Despite days of Coast Guard searches and continued monitoring of shorelines, no bodies were recovered in connection with the escape. Roughly a month later, the crew of a Norwegian ship reported spotting a body floating in the ocean about 15 miles from the Golden Gate Bridge. The crew were aware of the recent escape from Alcatraz, but their ship lacked the cold storage facilities needed to preserve a body, and they were unable to recover it.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Oh come on, just recover it. Fish it out, right?

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Jesus. Like, oh we don't have a fridge, so let's not bother.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Recover it and take a photo of it and throw it back over at least. Yeah, it'd probably stink up the ship.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Probably didn't have a camera either.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Mm-mm. It's only 1950. Yeah, they did. Yeah, they did.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Yeah, probably had iPhones. Such a smart prick, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:48

And I have to live with it.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

San Francisco County Coroner Henry Turkle did not agree that the body reportedly seen floating belonged to one of the men. I can't say that. As a body in the open ocean for more than a month was unlikely to remain intact. He went on record stating it could have been Cecil Philip Herman, a 34-year-old unemployed baker who had jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge five days earlier.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Okay, that's likely.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

However, there was no proof, and no one could be certain unless the body was recovered. There was also a conflicting article stating that Herman's body had in fact been recovered by the California Highway Patrol. Well, had it or hadn't it? I don't know. For God's sake, honestly Americans. He's British. Truckle's opinion was not in the majority. Four of his peers from neighboring counties believed it was entirely possible that the floating body had been one of the men. They're making it up. They're like, oh no, case closed. It's one of them.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

They probably didn't want the embarrassment of these people escaping, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, okay, yeah, that makes sense. Authorities discovered bones that washed ashore north of San Francisco in 1963, a year after the escape. They considered whether they belonged to one of the men.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

So they didn't know for at least a year then.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

At least a year. We're now a year beyond the escape. The Anglin family allowed investigators to exume the remains of their brother Alfred for DNA comparison. I don't think I say this later. I can't remember, as I said, there's so much information. Really weird death with Alfred. Remind me later. I can't say it now, or it's gonna spoil something. Okay. Okay, Alfred.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

I think they did DNA comparison in 1960.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

This is what I was gonna ask.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

I think it was like in the 90s or something they zoomed Alfred and then they still had that body. Makes sense. Testing showed the recovered bones were not a match to Alfred. Oh. However, the bones could still have belonged to Morris, who had no living relative. A fellow prisoner, Bob Bob. Bob. I don't know how to say his last name. Schebline. Sheblinia. Let's go with Shybline.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Sheblin. I don't think anyone's gonna correct you.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

A fellow prisoner, Bob Schebline, said that he had been providing Clarence Anglin tide tables torn from a chronicle page that he had taken from a wastebasket left behind by guards. If true, it means the men had at least some awareness of the tide conditions. As we know, the Anglin brothers had grown up in Florida, and family members affirmed that the brothers were adept at swimming turbulent waters. They were described as strong swimmers familiar with makeshift flotation devices constructed from inner tubes. Family members have long maintained that the brothers survived. According to Ken Widen, John and Clarence's nephew, all three men made it off the island alive. In the years following the escape, two of the Anglin sisters reported receiving Christmas cards signed John and Clarence. Still, that could have been anyone.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

That could have been some nuts, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:50

The handwriting was analyzed and proven to be written by the brothers. Even though the family said they received the cards after the escape, authorities could not actually prove this due to the lack of stamps on the envelopes. Your next photo is that Christmas card that is signed by Clarence and John.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Lack of stamps on the envelopes. Are we suggesting that they walked up to the house and put it in? I don't know. That that was my thought. See, that makes me think more it might have been them. Because the hoaxer isn't necessarily gonna do that. They're just gonna post it.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Can we check their ring doorbell or something?

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Oh yeah, let me get that for you. Great idea. Or their neighbours. They didn't have one. I'm still looking at my document, sorry. Oh no, don't you?

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, you're right. If it was a hoax, they would have posted it.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

But then again, the thing that's putting me off is if you're a wanted criminal, you're not gonna walk right up to your mum's house, are you? To post a Christmas card. You would just post it. I guess.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

If you if you're really longing and you know you can't sort of bring them into it, and maybe they well, no, I was gonna say maybe they were worried about transferring their DNA on a stamp, but I don't think they'd have known about that then.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

I don't think they were lick and stick in those days.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Sorry? The stamps.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

I think you had to paste them on, yeah, with glue.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Did you? I wonder is there like a hidden meaning in the in the picture on the Christmas card? Oh, I hadn't thought about that. Because that looks like a boat to me.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Oh, it does. I hadn't thought about that. And it has three legs. Three men.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

Seven baubles.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

What does that mean? Seven sharks?

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Seven sharks.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

So they had to fight?

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

And seven leaves.

unknown 16:26

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Which makes fourteen, which is how many siblings they were. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Oh, we're getting into Taylor Swift territory here. John and Clarence's mother also received Mother's Day cards. She reportedly received flowers anonymously for several years following their disappearance. And there were claims that the men attended her 1973 funeral disguised in women's clothing and heavy makeup. I know. When you said that earlier, I was like, you cannot say anything, don't say anything. Yeah.

unknown 16:58

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

I swear. Northumbria police, I am here. Just give me a call. Just give me a call. I'm ready.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

I'm ready. You're ready. One of the Anglin's sisters also claimed to have received a phone call from him soon after the escape.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Oh, well, this can be more verified because that would be his voice.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Another Angland brother, Robert, reportedly told family members that he had remained in contact with John and Clarence until about 1987.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

What? Mm-hmm. Why is he saying that now then? Why what made him say that?

SPEAKER_00 17:29

I think a lot of this came to light in the late 90s, early 2000s. Um, we'll get into this later, but one of the sisters was ready to die, essentially. Like she was on her last legs. Yeah. And so that's when a lot of the family members like be um started making things public, and there there's been a lot of shows, a lot of podcasts. That's why I'm so surprised you guys have not heard of this. Like did they just do that to make her feel better? I don't think so. I don't want to say anything further to spoil anything. No worries. In 2011, an elderly man named Bud Morris, who claimed to be a cousin of Frank Morris, came forward with his own account. Okay. He stated that prior to the escape, he had delivered bribes to Alcatraz guards. Oh, see. Oh fuck.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

I was gonna say this earlier. I was gonna say maybe they the it was the photos thing. I was like, maybe they had connections because I can imagine this Morris guy in particular with being so intelligent that he would have been a charmer as well, especially with that that jawline. Right. And I bet he was in the pockets of a lot of inmates and the guards, and I was wondering if maybe the guards had been bringing them personal items or do you know what I mean? And and maybe there was some sort of corruption going on in other ways as well.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

See, I totally agree. Because like it seems much easier to me to bribe a few guards than drill through a wall with a vacuum cleaner. Yeah. Like, I think that would have been the first thing they tried to do. They had 19k from knocking off that bank.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

So what did they do with it though? Maybe they had buried it and they just told the gods where to go.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Maybe maybe they preemptively buried it on Alcatraz. Knowing they were gonna be sent there years later.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

I see. He further claimed that shortly after the escape, he met Frank in a park in San Diego. Bud's daughter supported part of the story, saying she remembered being present and meeting her father's friend Frank. However, it's not known whether Bud Morris's account was ever authenticated. Why would he lie? Did he have any reason to lie? I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

What do we think, Chris?

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Um, I don't know. He must have been getting old, maybe he just wanted some relevance, maybe he wanted a paycheck, maybe he wanted I don't know. Maybe he was thinking, right, if I sell this exclusive story, I'll get some cash, give it to my children.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

And people do do that.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Yes. Another theory was brought to officials by convict and conspirator Woodrow Wilson Ganey.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

Woodrow Wilson. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

I laughed at that name. Who's that why? I was a president of the US at one point. Ganey suggested the men had planned to make their getaway from the dock area using a long industrial electric cord by tying it to a frame near the island ferry's rudder, hitching a ride to the mainland. This is backed up from a statement said by a former FBI agent suggesting that 125 feet of electrical cord missing that night may have been overlooked in official reports. There was a prison boat docked on the far side of the island that transported inmates and family members at scheduled times to and from the mainland and the island, with the last boat departing that evening at eleven fifteen pm.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Thoughts. So I'm sorry, are we suggesting that they tied something to the wood and got pulled along by the boat to the mainland?

SPEAKER_02 20:46

I don't think that's realistic. Yeah, yeah. Unless they were paying off the guard, at which point you just go in the boat, wouldn't you? Yes. Like a guard's gonna notice if you're dragging along a jet ski behind you, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Right. There's no way that Morris would have allowed that because it's too risky.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Right, he's fought through this entire plan so far, and it's like, guys, then we're gonna tie some electrical cable to the back of a boat and we're gonna jet ski all the way to the to the mainland.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Darwin Kuhn also claimed he heard them debate a similar scheme. In Darwin's account, he was another inmate, he stated they planned to use a small segment of steel pipe large enough to thread the cord through. The purpose was to weigh down the cable low enough in the water to keep it from becoming caught in the propeller while the ferry was in reverse. I don't believe any of this, but that's what the man said.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

It may have it may have been talked about and then decided not to.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

I don't think they did it.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

They were doing a mind map and like Yeah, brainstorming. There's no bad ideas.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Just shooting the shed. This version of the theory claimed a boat awaited them near the St. Francis Yacht Club and brought them to a distant harbor for safe passage out of San Francisco. After hearing of the escape, Robert Chechi, a reputable San Francisco police officer, contacted the FBI reporting he had witnessed a suspicious boat in this very area and remained convinced he had observed activities linked to the escape. In his statement, he witnessed three men being picked up by another boat around midnight, aligning with the time of the final departure. And that's all we have on that.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

If that's it.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Yeah. Did he say this at the time or when did he say it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

This was like almost immediately he went and he was like, wait, I saw this last night. This happened. And he was a police officer and he went to the FBI. Okay. Yeah. Wait, tell me again exactly what I said he saw. He reported that he had witnessed a suspicious boat in the area and remained convinced he had observed activities linked to the escape. In his statement, he witnessed three men being picked up by another boat around midnight, aligning with the time of the final departure.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Where? Was this from Alcatraz?

SPEAKER_00 22:58

No, that he was like parked in his police car and he wasn't on the island. He was like on the mainland, but overlooking San Francisco Bay, and he saw this boat and like the three men and all that from where he was parked. On the mainland, like he saw them.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

He saw them being picked up by a boat.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Yeah. From where? The mainland, I think.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

So they got to the mainland and then they got onto another boat. I think that could that could be it. Okay. Because they could have come over in their paddly thing and then been picked up by another boat. It was this boat big or little? Don't know. Just a little, a little just just a boat. A little paid off guard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Yeah. Mm-hmm. If you're already on the sea, you could you could go skirt around the coast, couldn't you?

SPEAKER_01 23:37

You can go anywhere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Would it not have with this boat not have been picked up by any other boat in the area?

SPEAKER_00 23:44

I don't know. Because I'm wonder 'cause San Francisco Bay, I've never been. But my thought at that time in the 60s is that you know 11 30 close to midnight, the only boat you would see would be the Alcatraz ferry. Right. So why else would there be another boat there?

SPEAKER_02 24:00

It's gonna be pretty conspicuous, isn't it? Driving around a motorised boat in the middle of the bay. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

At midnight. It didn't have any physical description of the boat. It was probably so dark you just couldn't see. That's what I'm imagining. It's it's midnight. Yeah, it's difficult to see. How much can you see?

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Like 1960s is that weird time where it was probably fully in obviously it was fully industrialized, but I'm thinking it's like totally dead.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

But wait, but also if if he's if he's close enough to see three distinct men figures, could have been silhouettes, maybe. Still, you would still have an idea of the boat. What kind is it a fishing boat, or is it a ferry boat, or is it like you'd oh god, I'm not saying he's especially as you're a policeman as well.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

You'll be looking at you want to get the details, right? You should be writing this shit down.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Why didn't he go and approach them if it was so shifty?

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Well, three guys again, four guys again against one. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

And maybe I just haven't read that. Maybe he has said, but as far as I'm aware, what I've read, all I got was a boat.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Yeah, okay, okay, okay. So I don't know. Okay, well, I think this has some credence. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Did I use that word right?

SPEAKER_01 25:02

That's a lovely word. Okay, thanks.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

In 2012, two of the Anglin brothers' sisters, along with two of the sisters' sons, publicly announced that they believe John and Clarence had survived the escape. The Anglin family stated they had held on to their evidence for years, claiming they were spied on and harassed by the FBI, but chose to come forward before their sister, Marie Anglin Widener, passed away. Why? Money. Publicity. Again, I don't know. I don't know what spurred them to do.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Even if it was true. And they're saying they wanted to do it before she died. Why?

SPEAKER_00 25:36

I wish I had an answer for you.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Because all they had to do was go and tell her. They didn't have to publicize it.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Oh no, no, no. I don't mean like she knew, but the whole family wanted to come forward. Why? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

Why before she wanted to shop our brothers to the FBI?

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Just because one of us is gonna die. Why? I I don't know. I'm confused. What was in it for there must be a reason I My only thought is publicity, genuinely.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

But why specifically because she's a few years, maybe she wants to make make her peace with you know, get out everything off her off her chest. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

I guess yeah, okay. That maybe it maybe it may be like relinquishing the guilt before she dies. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Maybe she thinks she doesn't she's not gonna make it into heaven if she dies with her felons.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

But even then, would you not just tell her you've done it and not? Yeah. She's gonna die. She's not gonna know.

SPEAKER_03 26:27

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Oh no, this is weird. Why'd they do that? There's something there that we don't know.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Family's interesting. I've watched a lot of documentaries and listened to a lot of podcasts. Interesting how? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

It's gotta be interesting to have 14 children.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

But not only that, like the the nephews, like I applaud them for wanting I'm trying not to have any spoilers here. Come back to me on this. Come back. I I I don't want to say anything to accidentally spoil it. This is my absolute favorite bit, and it's only just like three sentences. It's hilarious. Apparently, before the escape was made public, a man claiming to be John Englin called an attorney. She answered the phone and later recalled their conversation. He said, I'm John Anglin, and I want you to contact the U.S. Marshal's office. I said, Well, I'm not gonna do that unless I know why. And he said, Do you know who I am? I said, No. He said, Read the newspaper. And he hung up. That's all we have on this attorney call. Like nothing else. I don't know if I believe it or not. I don't I don't believe this.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

I don't believe it either. I think that somebody who wanted to cause a ruckus who was a hoax would have expected more of a reaction and then been pissed off when she didn't know and been like, ugh, read the newspapers and go and try the next hoax. I think if that was actually John Angli Anglin who wanted that phone call to be made, would have made sure that phone call was made if it was really him and really wanted it made. Yeah. So I think that was just a hoaxer trying to see it. I agree. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

I love it when we all agree. That's so nice. Quite rare.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

But it's just a bit, yeah. Carnes claimed that a few weeks after the escape, he received a postcard from the men. Who? Carnes, Clarence Carnes. He was the one who was involved in the 1946 Battle of Acatras. Right. So he was there for like 17 years. Fellow inmate. Fellow inmate. He is the one who gave Morris the, like, hey, there's tunnels beneath your cell.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Right. The message received, gone fishing, a pre-arranged code that, according to Carnes, was meant to confirm they had made it off the island successfully. How would he receive the message? When he was in jail, a postcard came from Oh.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Okay, so we know this existed. And we know that it was addressed to him and it's And it couldn't have come from a hoax because how would they know about this?

SPEAKER_00 28:43

How would they know?

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Carnes believed that Morris and the Anglin brothers had outside help arranged through connections made inside the prison. He claimed that Ellsworth Bumpy Johnson had coordinated a boat to retrieve the escapees, and that the vessel transported them to Pier 13 in San Francisco's Hunters Point District. This would confirm the policeman sighting. It would. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Sorry, I'm still stuck on the nickname Bumpy Johnson.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Yeah. Philip Bergen, the former Alcatraz captain of guards, strongly disputed the account, stating, My feeling is that's just something that Carnes dreamed up and that there's not the slightest possibility there's any truth in it. I don't agree with him. Why would you say that? Right? Against what with what evidence, my dude? With what evidence?

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Again, it just feels like damage control PR, like we built an unescapable prison that two people have three people of the city.

SPEAKER_02 29:41

Nah, they definitely drowned.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

No, they died.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

They're dead.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

The Anglin Brothers had previously claimed to have worked for Los Angeles crime figure and Mickey Cohen, leading to speculation that outside assistance could have been arranged by him. Decades later, tidal modeling conducted by researchers at Delft University re-examined the currents on the night of June 11th. Using modern simulations, they suggested that if the men departed closer to 11:30 or midnight, they may have encountered a favorable current carrying them toward the Marin headlands rather than out through the Golden Gate. In their simulation, every 30 minutes between 8 p.m. and 4 a.m. on the night of the escape, the team released 50 boats from a range of possible escape spots on Alcatraz. Some of the test boats stripped it aim aimlessly with the current, while some were paddled by the prisoners in various directions.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Wait, paddled by the prisoners. They go in the simulation. They didn't actually do this with your boats. Right. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

It's all a simulation. That was a weird visual thing. I tried my best to like write this in a way that would make sense. There goes another one. Oh shit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

No, it does make sense, Brittany. Sorry. It's just me.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

No, no, no. A few of the boats mimicked the presumed behavior of the prisoners, such as whether they would paddle faster if they spotted land through San Francisco's thick fog. If the men paddled perpendicular to the outgoing tide and left shortly before midnight, they probably would have reached Horseshoe Bay, near where the water opens to the Pacific Ocean. Alternatively, if the prisoners paddled against or with the current, they probably would not have survived the trip.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

I believe that they went to all this planning, they would have figured out that the tides were going to be a problem. So I don't think the tides would have caused them a problem because I think they'd have been like, right, we're going on this night because the tides are in this specific pattern. We know which way to paddle. So I think they're fine.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Completely agree.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

I agree. The university's modeling indicated there was a narrow window, particularly after midnight, during which a successful landing would have been possible. This analysis directly challenged the FBI's earlier interpretation. In a 2003 episode of Mythbusters, I watched this on the plane to this days and it was so nostalgic. The team recreated the raft and paddles based on FBI drawings and notes. They used contact cement to glue rubber together to form life jackets and inflated the raft with an accordion, as the FBI believed the men had done.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

It's just not necessary though, is it? They could have just inflated it any other way.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

No, they have to do it exactly how the men did it. Interested to know how long that took. Oh, they did say I you'd have to it's the episode is on YouTube, by the way. That's how I got it. It's like part of a bigger episode. It's like the first 15 minutes, but I'll send you the link. It's really cool. Okay. Testing the scenario at night under similar conditions, water just under 60 degrees, a five mile an hour wind, and an outgoing tide, they reached the shore in approximately 40 minutes. Though they need to add air to the raft every 10 minutes. So the Mythbuster guys actually did it themselves. They left Alcatraz under the same conditions and they still made it to shore. Okay. In an expedition unknown episode, investigators inflated a raft and tied it to the back of a similarly sized vessel as the island ferry, pulling their raft across the bay.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Even after the raft detached at one point and suffered a puncture, it still made it to land. Interesting. In later years, additional claims surfaced. A television program alleged that a car had been stolen by three men in the area around the time of the escape, proving West's allegations that the men had intended to steal clothes and a car and drive to Mexico. Had it, though, had it been stolen by three Yes. It had actually been stolen by three men.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

But the car was never found and the men were never identified.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

It was roughly only 500 miles from San Francisco to the Mexican border. So in theory, they could have made the drive before the first alarm sounded and they wouldn't be discovered missing until deep into Mexico.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

Sorry, how many miles?

SPEAKER_00 33:55

500. 500. That's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Well, if they left, like how fast are cars go?

SPEAKER_00 33:59

If they left earlier than expected. Because we don't actually know what time. Oh wait, no.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

They have done that in 12 hours.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

They could have done it if they sped through.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

But then, okay, question. If they made it over the Mexico border, would they have been able to make it back over again to deliver cards and I don't think at that point.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Unless they were in like heavy disguise. Yeah. I don't know. I don't I don't know what the border was like in the 60s.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Did they have their passports on them?

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Doubt it.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

I don't know if I think they would have hung around in in America.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

In 2018, San Francisco police revealed they had received a letter five years earlier from someone claiming to be John Englin seeking medical care in exchange for surrender. It claims the brothers and Morris lived into old age and after escaping the prison half a century ago. The author says Clarence Englin died in 2008 and that Morris died in 2005. The writer tries to make a deal with authority saying, if you announce on TV that I will be promised to just go to jail for no more than a year and get medical attention, I will write back to let you know exactly where I am. This is no joke. What was wrong with him? Cancer. Did they do it? No. Okay. Eh, should have just done it, even just to know. As far as I'm aware, what was out there publicly, they never did anything.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

Because you can go back on that. Well, you all you have to do is announce it on telly. It's not binding.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Yeah, interesting. I can see why they didn't. Yeah. Because firstly, how how do you know it's him? How do you know be announcing this shit when I was?

SPEAKER_01 35:37

If it's not him, then do you have anything to lose?

SPEAKER_02 35:41

I gu I guess I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

I don't know. The letter was tested for fingerprints by the FBI, but the results were inconclusive. In 2012, US Marshal Michael Dyke, who took on who took on the case in 2003, remarked that he had seen sufficient evidence to consider the possibility that they might still be alive. Dyke said, I give them a lot of credit to all the work they did. That's months of work without getting caught. They were able to do what nobody else has done and get completely off the island and never be found if they lived. However, the most substantial survival claims center on Brazil. In 2015, a photograph surfaced showing two men in Brazil in the early 1970s standing beside a termite mound. The image reportedly came from Fred Breezy, a drug runner operating out of South America, who visited the Anglin family in 1992 and gave the photo to Ken Widener's mother, John and Clarence's sister. You can now look at that photo from the 1970s. Side by side with their mugshots. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

I'm not convinced. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

The guy on the right's hairline does look similar, though.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

No, but if you look, the point in the middle is too low.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

True.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

True. It's like he's regained his hairline there but lost it on the sides. Interesting. No, no, no, no. Tell me all your thoughts. How did this photograph come to their attention?

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Was it just a Fred Breezy apparently had gone to Brazil and run into them and took this photo and then in the 1970s and then in the night in 1992 visited the Angland family and was like, here's a photo of them from 20 years ago in Brazil.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

I think the one on the left's nose is all wrong. I think his hairline's all wrong.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

And uh this in the 1970s, so they'd have been in their 50s.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

I think it's very convenient that they're both wearing sunglasses and like long hair and one has a beard. Like that is why there's ambiguity to this photograph. So I I just don't think this is legit.

unknown 37:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

Would they have allowed that photograph to be taken? They don't know. Very chill that that photo was being taken. Would they realistically still be together? I doubt it, man. I don't know. No. Okay. No. Detective Jacoa says no.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Okay, Christopher.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Christophoris. I I'm open to it just because the fact that he kept this photo of two random people for a long time over 20 years, right? Right. Because it's not like he had it on his on his USB stick.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Mm-hmm. Forgot about it. Like he had it printed out.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Why else would you take a photo of two random guys and a termite man?

SPEAKER_00 38:25

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Um, can you just quickly remind me who this guy was and why did you?

SPEAKER_00 38:29

So he was a drug runner from South America to the US.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

He had had some communication or contact with the Angland brothers prior to them going to Alcatraz. And then he goes to Brazil and he runs into them in the 1970s, takes a photo of them. In 1992, Breezy goes to the Angland family. I don't know for what reason, but it seems like I've been saying around the 90s is when things start to be made public and the family started to come forward. But anyway, Breezy goes to the family in 92 and was like, hey, I took this photo of them in the 70s.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Nah.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Nah. That's an opportunity. Okay. No. No.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Okay. What year was this photograph supposedly taken? Oh, I don't know. In the 70s at some point.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

They don't look almost 50.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

They would have been in the early 40s, I had seen.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

I thought you said he was born 26.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

No, that was Morris. Oh. So they were born in 30 and 31.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

I guess they could be 40 something.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Yeah, I'd say. Breezy claimed that with help from Mickey Cohen in Los Angeles, the brothers were set up with new lives in Brazil. He stated that he purchased a farm, raised crops and cattle, married, and had children. The supposed photo of the brothers was reportedly taken in a small village just north of Sao Paulo, near a Chevrolet plant. According to Breezy, the brothers lived close to this facility, and at the time in history, there were only two Chevrolet facilities in Brazil, one near the village of Montero Labato and one on the upper on the opposite side of the country. In the same expedition unknown episode, investigators traveled to Montero Lobato to speak with older residents. An elderly woman directed them to a man named Vincente who recalled that when he was a teenager, there were three English-speaking men who suddenly appeared in the area. You're shaking your head. Tell me why.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Well, I just I never really believe in eyewitness testimony anyway. Really?

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

I'm very skeptical.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

But I I just can't I can't take this seriously at all. I'm not saying that this person was lying. It could well be true, but it's not something I'm gonna factor into my own evidence because he's talking much later about something when he was a teenager. I I can't, I just the accuracy of that is just so no. I don't I can't believe that. Okay. That any of that, yeah. And and even if there's three random English speaking men-speaking white men who turn up one day, it doesn't mean anything.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Okay. He remembered two of them hiding in the hills near a natural rock shelter. No, he didn't. I'm sorry. According?

SPEAKER_01 41:12

I'm so.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

Yes, there was a natural rock shelter and two of them. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

How would he know that? Why would you have seen that? How would he remember that? Okay. No, he didn't. Okay. Sorry. No, that's alright. Tell me all your opinions. Got my cynical head on. What do you think, Chris? Are you buying this?

SPEAKER_02 41:28

I don't I don't know. Just because it's so long since it happened. He's coming up with this very specific stuff.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Mm-hmm. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

It's too specific, isn't it? And then he would also have to back that up with, I know this because like I they paid me off to not telling it. It was something that would make it memorable.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

It seems like he just found out about this this case and was like, oh, hmm. Yeah, I I I totally knew them. Yeah, three people that um yeah in Brazil. Yeah, I think they made it to Brazil. That's my theory. It sounds like he's in the pub talking to his mates.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

According to Vincente, the local sheriff confronted them, but ultimately made a deal. In exchange for payment, he brought them food by mule for about two months. How does he know this?

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Is this like a HelloFresh sort of thing?

SPEAKER_01 42:12

Food by mule. I'd I'd pay for that. Do I get to keep the mule? I guess, yeah, maybe if you pay an free mule with every order. With every order? Oh, I'm definitely signing up. There you go. Donkey Donkey Mule.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

Where were they getting this money from?

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Dude, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Watch the episode.

unknown 42:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Don't listen to this podcast. To include so much information. We're already two hours in. If I include everything, as you said earlier, it would be a dissertation. Investigators later located this rock shelter and began metal detecting. What? Where they found a lighter, rusted farming tools hidden in rock crevices. And a 1951 US penny dated eleven years before the escape, raising questions as to how it got there.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

It's a penny that's not.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Not in Brazil. Not in Brazil in the middle of a jungle. Yes. Yes. You're shit gets everywhere.

unknown 43:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Shit does get everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Alright, fine. Okay. You're wrong, but fine.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Let's do a Google Google search now for where random pennies have been found. Like literally every penny from everywhere has been found in the opposite place, I bet.

unknown 43:16

Okay. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 43:20

Okay. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

Every penny has been found in the opposite place.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

This podcast should be called literally.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Literally.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

A company called IdentiV analyzed the Brazil photograph, comparing it to the Anglin Brothers mugshots. According to the company, the mugshot was I the mugshots were identified as matches. Struck off to the Brazil image with 99% accuracy.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

99%.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

I don't know if I can believe that, but I'm putting it in.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

People want this to be true. That's the problem. There's a I'm surprised the FBI didn't do one because they did that for Amy Bradley. Didn't they? The FBI did that. Did they they can do the For all comparisons, right?

SPEAKER_00 44:01

I wonder how much they've done that they've had not released.

SPEAKER_02 44:05

I don't know how they're getting 99% accuracy out of that.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

That's from one episode of Expedition Unknown, that's why I haven't followed it up.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

The hairline's different, like you say. It is. The only thing that looks similar is the is the hair colour. And one of the photos is black and white, so their builds completely different. They're 20 years apart. So much could happen in those 20 years.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

Retired US Marshal Art Rodrigue, who led the investigation for 20 years, described the Brazil lead as absolutely the best actionable lead we've had. When you work these types of cases, there's a feeling you get when stuff starts to fall into place. It's just a lot of people. I'm getting this feeling now.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

Men thinking they know stuff.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Honestly, just men thinking.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Tell me about it.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

Stay in the kitchen.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Shut your mouth. But there's it is ridiculous. They're just like, well, I think I know because I'm experienced and a man, and therefore I don't know. I don't know. It just feels like they just they just don't put any evidence into it.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

I've got a gut feeling. This guy's holiday snap is doing it for me.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Oh my god. And the photo's bad quality, which it didn't need to be for those times. The muckshots the muc shots that we've got of the prisoners are pin sharp.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

I think it's different cameras though. Because right. One Chris, right? Stop. But I'm thinking like in in the gel, you're gonna have like maybe the most up-to-date camera, whereas just in the 70s, you're gonna have like a Kodak camera, you know?

SPEAKER_01 45:32

I just think it's convenient that this is such a bad photograph.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

Do we definitely know this photo was taken in Brazil?

SPEAKER_01 45:39

Yes. I was thinking that as well. How? It's not got a GPS attached to it. No, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

No. So how?

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Do you get termites in the US? Yeah. So it could have been. You say that with no confidence whatsoever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

Yes, I am. We do have termites. Don't question me.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Sorry. Sorry, honey. Sorry, Brittany.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

Since reviewing the evidence, Roderick reportedly lined up ten new interviews, including one with Whitey Bulger, who had crossed paths with the future men. Nope, with the with the future men. With the future escapees during his time at Alcatraz. In a 2014 letter to Ken Widener, Bulger claimed he had advised John and Clarence on how to navigate the Bay's currents and offered what he described as essential guidance on surviving life as a fugitive. He taught them that when you disappear, you have to cut all ties, Ken said. He told me in a letter, this is the mistake I made. He told me these brothers undoubtedly had done exactly what I told them to do. You're nodding your head. Yeah. You agree? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

By saying I don't think this photo's real doesn't mean I don't think they Yeah, I just don't think the photo's real.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

But they may well have like lived into the 2000s for sure.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

I'm just not buying the photo.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

Fair enough. In 2012, the US Department of Justice released age-progressed images of the men alongside their mugshots. You can see them now. There's three of them. So you have Clarence first and then John and then Frank. Oh, Clarence didn't age well. None of them really did.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Neither did John. God, they all look grim, didn't they?

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Despite one of the most extensive manhunts in federal prison history, Frank Morris, John Englin, and Clarence Englin have never been found. For 17 years, the file remained open and active at the FBI. Agents filed leads across state lines and beyond the country. Nothing produced definitive proof to show the man had died or escaped. In 1979, the FBI closed the investigation, stating that the most likely outcome was drowning in the waters of San Francisco Bay. However, the case wasn't set aside completely since jurisdiction was transferred to the United States Marshall Service, where it remains open today. The Marshals maintain authority over the case and have stated that the warrant remains active until the individuals are confirmed deceased or reach the age of 100, which for Frank Morris will be this year. I didn't know that until I researched it, yeah. Why is it exciting? What would happen?

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Well, do we not get loads of info or something? Did they start releasing?

SPEAKER_00 48:12

He would be a hundred this year. I don't know what we get, if anything. But it's one more step in the case. Even if they are alive, international laws may not even allow extradition to the US. Today, Alcatraz is visited by over 1.14 million 1.4 million people each year. Tourists peer into the cells where the escape was planned, still marked by holes cut into the walls and cardboard vent covers. Yet beyond these silent reminders, the ultimate fate of Frank Morris and the Angland Brothers remained unanswered. And after more than six decades, the mystery is still unsolved.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

That is amazing. I am wondering how hard would because one of the reports was what they they didn't die until like 2008, one of them at least. How easy or hard would that have been to have gone that long, considering the digital world all the way into 2008? What do you think? Unless they lived in Brazil actually.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

I think they I I don't think they were in the US because I didn't say this. As I've said, there's so much information in my head versus what I've written down. In that letter that was sent in in 2013 by someone claiming to be John Englin, he had said for a while they lived in North Dakota or South Dakota, one of them, and then end up in Seattle, and then at the time of the letter was living in Southern California. My head is why are you going back to California if you escaped from California? So I think personally, I think they survived. I don't think they died, and I don't think they were in the US. I think they escaped the US.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

I think if they made it to Brazil, then they could have easily assumed a new identity. Absolutely. Yeah, you could have. Because it was the what 60s in Brazil. You could just live there until someone comes around and asks what your name is. Oh, you're aware of it. Oh, my name's this. Oh, I need a new security number. I've I haven't got my birth certificate. What are you gonna do? Nothing. Yeah, I agree. You're not gonna think, oh, it's those people that escaped from Alcatraz.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

Do you think that person that sent that letter about being very, very unwell then was? I don't believe that. It's just it feels so specific though about being very unwell.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

I don't know. I think there was there were so many how like hoaxes that I just didn't include because it would get too much. But what and like deathbed confessions.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

But what are you gonna gain by well? I mean, I guess you're getting people to go on the telly and say something if that's attention, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 50:33

It's attention.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Yeah. I think they s they lived. I think they survived. I think they left the US. I wanna believe they went to Brazil. Whether or not that photo was Sam, I don't know, but I want to believe they went to Brazil. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

I mean, I'm not maybe not specifically Brazil, but anywhere like in those Central South America. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's it's more than reasonable to believe.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

And I think even if they made it 2008, I mean you could still have got away without having sort of any sort of digital identity linking you to you don't have to get DNA taken. You don't have to get When did they do the DNA testing? Do you know? Oh, we don't know.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

I want to say it was the 90s. I I didn't write it in, but it was definitely Oh, that was the other thing. Alfred, right? Yes. Apparently, I didn't include this, but he was jailed at some point and died during an escape attempt because he was electrocuted, but it was said that this was suspicious due to the like the family said this because the brother Robert had visited him just weeks prior, and Albert gave the indication this was after the escape, that he had been in contact with John and Clarence. Who's Alf and Alfred is a brother?

SPEAKER_02 51:46

I'm glad you said that because I was like, who the fuck is Alfred?

SPEAKER_00 51:49

One of the brothers.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

So he after the escape went to prison himself.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

No, no, he had been in prison already. The escape happened. Robert, another brother, visited Alfred. Alfred gave the indication that he knew where John and Clarence was, were. And but the thing is, Alfred was gonna be be released within weeks. So why would he attempt an escape? And there was electrocuted during the escape?

SPEAKER_01 52:15

Like let's say I just think heard that his brothers had escaped and thought he would try it as well. I don't know. But then also suspicious. How would he know whilst he's in prison where the brothers were? Any well, no where the brothers were, because any male would have been intercepted. So he couldn't have been told.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

No. So no, I think unless they had like some pre-arranged code, but how would that work?

SPEAKER_02 52:37

Yeah, you wouldn't know, would you? Right? What do you think about the gone fishing thing?

SPEAKER_00 52:40

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

I like that. I like it. I don't know if I believe it, but But Alan wait it was Alan that they got there. It was Carnes. Oh, Carnes, right, okay. Because I was thinking Alan was meant to come with them, so why would someone have sent him a letter? Gotcha. Why would they have made up this code? I got it.

SPEAKER_01 52:55

Um I think there might be something in the Christmas cards to the house. Okay. Just because it it wasn't stamped. Someone actually walked up to that house.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

That's what I'm thinking, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

I mean, we're assuming that though, or was it posted with no stamps and they had to pay to receive it?

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Mmm.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

As far as I'm aware, that information has never been.

SPEAKER_01 53:11

Oh, well, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

I but it but no, it wouldn't even be posted without stamps. Like you you can't even do that.

SPEAKER_02 53:17

You don't just chuck it in a mailbox.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

No, you have to have stamps on it. If there's no stamps, it's gonna get returned to you or just not. It's just not gonna go anywhere. Well, I have never posted anything without stamps. Like you cannot do that.

SPEAKER_02 53:29

But also do that here, it goes to them, you have to pay like a Yeah, not in the US.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

I was gonna say that's here and today's standards. It may not be the same 60s US if they may just throw that, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:41

They would just like either do return to sender or just do like get rid of it. Like you can't post without stamps.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

Any 90-year-old former postman from the US, write in.

SPEAKER_00 53:52

Right. Tell us your tell us what actually happened because I was not alive. Christopher was. If the brothers were up there, write in as well.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

That's not how you do it.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

If you're still alive, you're a hundred years old, Frank Morris.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

So we can't be birthday. It is kind of interesting to me that the brothers were the only ones that there seemed to have been any physical evidence after. Frank Morris, there wasn't any sightings. Unless that body that was found was his.

SPEAKER_02 54:16

I think they killed him. I think honestly, I think I think if you were two hardened criminals and you had this guy making doing all the hard work, once you were on that boat, you'd be like, Well, we don't really fucking needed him anymore.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

But the policeman did say he saw three men get picked up.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

I think, yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

But they may have just completely went their separate ways and he just really fell into nothing. Like, you know, just because he's so smart, he just really could have just done the whole identity thing.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

Yeah, he could have just disappeared. It was a lot easier then. I mean Mahom Mahomey? Mahoney? Maloney. Maloney. Maloney. He did it.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

He did it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:51

And he was pretty smart. He found that child that died and took his identity, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:56

Brittany. Did you say that the rumors were with that the brothers sort of settled down, got married, had children?

SPEAKER_00 55:04

Yeah, I don't know if I believe that because I only read that once.

SPEAKER_01 55:06

Well, I'm just wondering like how many people have to put their DNA into Ancestry for us to find that out.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

True, but this is Brazil, so I don't know like how advertised like Ancestry DNA is. Unless the people have now moved back to the US.

SPEAKER_02 55:21

But like if you don't know part of your heritage, like if you don't know who your grandfather was, and it's just a mystery, you're more likely to do a DNA test.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

Yes. Unless you think you do. Unless you think you think he's a completely inconspicuous, cute little old man called Bob. He would have made up a story. Why would you then question it? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

I'm sad there's no resolution.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

I know. Sorry guys. Can I address another issue quickly before I forget? Given all three of the men's criminal histories, how likely is it that they went on to live for that long and never committed another crime?

SPEAKER_02 55:57

Like I like that.

SPEAKER_01 55:59

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

How they would have been out there robbing banks, would they not? Or unless it was in like Brazil or another country where you're allowed to rob banks in Brazil, right? No, I just meant like maybe they just weren't caught. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 56:12

I like that theory though, because they were given many chances before, right? They were given probation, they were given like little jail sentences, and they still went back to it. So I don't think this would have been a deterrent because they were like, oh well, we escaped.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

No, they were hardened criminals by then. Like it's it's so in their nature. It's like the only way they know how to live, even. Yeah. So like to then completely never re-offend is very odd.

SPEAKER_02 56:34

Or maybe they did, and we just they would just their identities just weren't linked to linked up.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

Yes. I mean, maybe they went back to jail as completely different people. Oh, absolutely. Like Would you ever know? They could have been sat in a Brazilian prison for the last however long.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

Could have been in and out, or maybe they fell into the drug stuff and then that was enough crime for them.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

Maybe they've gone to like a Brazilian psychiatric hospital, Brazil nuts.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

That was re that was actually good. Thanks. Okay, should we should we leave it there on Brazil?

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Right, Brazil nuts. So we all think that they definitely survived. At least like San Francisco Bay. Yeah. Right? I agree.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

I think there's less evidence of it for Morris. Maybe something happened there. Maybe he just died earlier, but the the brothers, 100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:26

Each of you say your personal favorite theory, whether you think it's backed by evidence or not. What do you think? Like, what what what would you have wanted to happen?

SPEAKER_02 57:35

I think brothers escaped with Morris. Bumped Morris off, shut him off the boat. I don't know whether his body was found or it just sunk in the harbour, eaten by sharks, fishes, whatever. They escaped. I don't I don't know about the policeman seeing the people in the boat. It could have been anyone, it could be fishers, fishermen, it could have been anything. I don't know. I hope they made it to the shore and then they escaped to Mexico or Brazil or something.

unknown 57:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

I think that they all escaped, they all survived, but they went their different ways. The brothers stayed together and Morris went off on his own. Morris got a new identity, got himself educated, and for the last 40 years has been a senior lecturer at university.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

Love it.

SPEAKER_01 58:11

In like whatever he was good at, you know, I guess. Bank robbery chemistry. He just really changed his ways and had like two cats and just was a nerdy professor for the rest of his life. And the brothers, I like to believe that they went and made shitloads of money in Brazil on drugs and lived a life of luxury for the rest of their lives. And actually are like sitting in their mansions today under the name like Frank Smith. Maybe not Frank, because that might give it away because the other one was Frank.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

Ah, I must say John. Um Curtis Yellen. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

Yeah, that's what about you?

SPEAKER_00 58:53

I think they all survived. I think I'm very torn in whether or not I like want to believe that Body Found was Morris's. But who else would it be? Anybody, I guess. Or maybe he just went off. I want to believe because like I grew up hearing about this story, right? I could not tell you the amount of stuff that was like aired, I couldn't even find half of it, aired on like YouTube, the History Channel, Discovery Channel, about all the possible theories of what could have happened. And I just keep like I just want to believe that Brazil was it. Yeah. Because I'm like, that would be so funny.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

It would be so funny. It feels so right.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

It just feels so like that's the answer, but I don't know. I want to believe that's it. And then they just died out of old age. Perfect. And we're never caught. Shall I read my sources? Yes. There's a lot of The Alabama Journal, the Redlands Daily Facts, The Huntsville Times, Oakland Tribune, Dark Curiosities Podcast, Time Magazine, BBC News, ABC 30, National Park Foundation, Science News, NPR, New York Post, FBI.gov, The Los Angeles Times, Sky News, and CBS News. Fantastic story, right? Thank you very much. It was a lot. I was like, I just had to cut it off at one point because it would just been like literally an entire dissertation. So go out and read it and watch it and let us know what you think. Let us know what you think.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

Write into redheadspod at gmail.com. Woo!

SPEAKER_02 1:00:23

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SPEAKER_01 1:00:24

Brazil Nuts. Tune in next week for a real good tale.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:48

Yes, it is.