A Family That Slays Together - Part 2

Welcome to Red Herrings!

This week, Brittany tells us about a family that shared a gruesome hobby...

Hosted by: Brittany Warren & Joccoaa Gray
 
Sound Engineer & Co-host: Christopher Brown
 
Edited by: Joccoaa Gray

If you would like to get in touch, please contact us at redherringspod@gmail.com.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to Red Herrings. I'm Jacoa, Master's student in Law and Human Rights, host of True Crime Club Newcastle, and creator of True Crime Forum Newcastle.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

Hi, I'm Brittany. I have two degrees in history and 15 years experience in genealogy. We're the red herrings.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Well, well, well. What do we have here? Two red herrings and the catch of the day. Don't forget about me.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Hi, Chris! We're the red herrings.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

And Chris.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

Welcome back to part two of The Bloody Benders. In part one, Dr. York went missing. We discovered the bodies on the property, and now suddenly the family has vanished.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Oh, I like that. So you we should look for like similar Yes.

unknown 0:58

Right?

SPEAKER_03 0:58

We're just we'll come back to that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

I agree with you now. You've said that. I didn't think about that, but yeah. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

This is so exciting.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

I'm glad you're into this. Oh my god, do you see why I was like, I can't do it next week. Like I had to, this has to be perfect. Colonel York offered a $1,000 reward for the family's capture. Right. And the governor of Kansas added $2,000 more. Holy fuck. As far as records show.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

That was very enthusiastic.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

It's a lot of money those days. Yeah. I actually didn't do the money. I didn't do the conversion this time around, but it must be. I don't know, Chris, look it up.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

A lot.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

Yeah, a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Yeah. Official verdict.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

As far as records show, no one ever claimed the money. Right. Claims of sightings and arrests began to spread across the country.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Not surprising if they're offering like three grand.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Mm-hmm. Right. It was reported that the family had abandoned their home nearly three weeks prior to the discovery, departing suddenly and without forming anyone, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

As if they had they didn't know it, but they had three weeks. No one found the house until three weeks after.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah, they must have been stressing, like, oh shit, we gotta go, we gotta go.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Like not thinking rationally at all because they actually had it three weeks plus because the only reason anyone went to the house was because it was obviously abandoned. So like they didn't need to leave like that. But they just didn't know that whatever happened at that meeting felt imminent enough.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Mm-hmm. I mean there was probably a lot of anger, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Oh, I'm assuming people were shouting and Yeah, you could probably feel it off of everybody.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

But they weren't suspected enough. Like no one came to the house with pitchforks. Like that didn't happen. It was only the end of the day. Yes, exactly. Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

I mean it could have been wild animals for all they knew.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Could have been. They they just thought their property was going to be searched but they had three weeks. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Damn. And you can get a long way in three with three weeks, right? Even back to the end of the day.

SPEAKER_03 3:07

I don't know. Reports suggested they had travelled to Thayer, Kansas, roughly ten miles from their homestead, where they abandoned their team, wagon, and dog in the public street before purchasing train tickets bound for Humboldt, Kansas.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

I'm so sorry to interrupt, but something Chris said has just come back to me a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Was it the thing about the hung penises?

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Um I don't know anything about that. You would know more about that than me. Oh thanks.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Oh, I see, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:41

So Chris just said they didn't even know that these people were being murdered. They just thought they were going missing. It could have been a random wild animal, like a really ravaged one or something, like a crazy one, a big one or whatever. Bombat.

SPEAKER_03 3:56

Bombat, yes. Because before they searched the house, they'd only found a handful of bodies. It wasn't everyone who had gone missing, their body had been found. Like I only listed, I think, like four or five people, and there were so many more I could have listed.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

So what I'm wondering is that meeting with 75 men that decided they wanted a warrant to search all of the houses, what led them there? Why were just tired? But why weren't they sending people out on a hunt for a wild bear that was going crazy?

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Why weren't they I don't know if there's bears in Kansas. I could be wrong. Never been.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

There could be hordes of bears roaming the prairie.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

They uh why did they think this was a human? I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Maybe it was maybe it's just a significantly high prevalence of people going missing compared to like sort of other trails through the state.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

That's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking because this trail was hundreds of miles long. And I think it was just in this like secluded But in a particular area, right? Yes, it was just in this one area. But that would suggest a random animal. Like why I'm just gonna know what led them to that decision.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

But you'd think an animal would sort of wander a around a bit or at least be more than a few years ago. Yeah, with migration maybe.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

And wait, wait.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

I'm waiting.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

The guy that said that he survived, he didn't come for uh forward with this until after.

SPEAKER_03 5:21

He didn't, and I think that's why also the Catholic priest, I think his testimony was so questioned as well because he came forward after the fact. But also I think it's like I don't know, I'm inclined to maybe believe it a little bit. Like maybe you're like that was such a weird experience. You're not from the area, you're just traveling through it, you're trying to get to like California or something, you're like, right, I just need to get back on the road. It's gonna be fun. I I don't know. The thing is, I don't know when Pickering came forward with his account. Maybe it was before things were discovered. And then it was just kind of written off, like, oh, those weird Germans, you know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

Not if you've got 75 people in a room window where a load of men are going missing.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

I'm thinking this is before. I'm thinking Pickering came forward with his account before the meeting even happened.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

No, but I'm saying, like, so if he'd come forward, the these this family would have been right on their radar.

SPEAKER_03 6:13

I see. Yeah. No, you're right. It had it had to have been after. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate, but it had to have been after, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:19

It had to have been after, and why was it after red flag? I don't know. I don't know if I believe it. I want to see the head wound.

unknown 6:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

And I don't believe you could escape that situation, really.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

Yeah, as well, because come on.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Yeah, I mean, well, I I guess he's saying he didn't get to the trapdoor part. Yeah. He just got a bad vibe.

SPEAKER_03 6:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

And it was like peace out. Oh yes. Okay, so he didn't get one. Peace out. Bye. Okay, I had misformulated that in my mind. I thought he couldn't. He had a head wound in your arrest. Yes, he did. Okay, so yeah, okay. Ignore me. I believe it again. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

So you can see the next map. It's um a duplicate from one earlier, but reports suggested the Benders had traveled to Thayer, Kansas before purchasing train tickets bound for Humboldt, Kansas. From there, their trail went cold. As reports of their escape spread, newspapers began to describe the family in increasingly dramatic terms, referring to them as villainous and bloodthirsty. Well, I mean They're not wrong. Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

I mean I I think that's pretty fair description.

SPEAKER_03 7:31

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

I don't think we'll contact episode just yet.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

An elderly man was arrested in Pennsylvania accused of being John Sr. He denied the claim, insisting he was incapable of committing the murders, pointing out that the little finger on his right hand was completely gone, and half of the little finger on his left hand was missing.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

How does that mean he can't do the murders?

SPEAKER_03 7:54

I don't know, but he was eventually released. So he's he's he's out. He's out. Other series. Yeah, nope. It was one of the first, like, oh, we've caught John Bender. Oh no, he's released.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Oh no, he's only got a couple of fingers.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

He could not have murdered.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Rather than saying he couldn't have murdered anyone, was he maybe saying I don't fit the description?

SPEAKER_03 8:16

Maybe.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Because that person had all ten fingers.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

Yeah, but who knows if John Sr. had all ten fingers.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Well probably his wife.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

If we don't know, then how would that guy have known to point it out?

SPEAKER_03 8:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Yeah, fair enough. Which actually makes it sus.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

It's a bit weird, isn't it? But he was released.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Okay. So they caught a guy, didn't have all his fingers, release.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

Other theories placed the family farther west in Colorado or Utah. However, in 1875, when three people vanished in Kansas, many feared the Benders had returned. But no trace of the missing people was ever found, and there was no proof this was an act of the Benders.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Three people individually not known to each other went missing in Canvas shortly after the Benders went missing.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Maybe.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Oh, there's four of them though.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Oh yeah. Never mind.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

And that's it. Only three.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

That's it. As far as I'm aware, yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Could it be like a copycat thing?

SPEAKER_03 9:23

Potentially, yeah. I I don't know. And the thing is, I don't know if I don't think their bodies were ever found, those three people.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:30

One I can tell you one was a woman traveling by herself. She was from England originally. She had moved I don't know when, but at some point to America. And I think the other two were were men traveling by themselves. One man soon came forward, claiming he had personally traced the Benders' movements through Texas, following their trail all the way to the Rio Grande. According to his account, the family had crossed the river and taken a ferry into Mexico, placing them beyond the immediate reach of the American authorities. At the time, it was widely reported that no extradition laws existed that would allow for their return. As a result, some articles went so far as to suggest that the only viable solution would be for someone to travel into Mexico, capture the family by force, and carry them back across the border into the United States. The idea gained enough traction that what was described as a plan of capture was reportedly to be laid before the Kansas legislature. It's not known what became of this plan.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Oh at least they put it before the legislature.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

In December of 1876, one Missouri newspaper reported that a vigilante group had gone to the Bender House shortly before the family supposedly disappeared, placed them in their own wagons, and taken them to a secluded location. There the vigilantes forced confessions from the family before killing them and disposing of their bodies.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Didn't happen.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

Some accounts claimed that one group had caught the Benders and shot all of them, sparing only Kate Jr., whom they burned alive. Another alleged that the family had been lynched and their bodies thrown into a river.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

No.

SPEAKER_03 11:19

Yet another version suggested the Benders died in a gunfight, the remains buried on the prairie. These accounts, however, have never been verified.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

If anyone was catching this family, they were parading them around because they'd caught them. Yeah. They're not just killing them and disposing of their bodies.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Yeah, especially if this is in national news as well.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:38

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

You'd be famous.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

And we know they got that train.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Yeah, we know they got to at least there.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Reports in 1877 continued to contradict one another. At one point, a family in Arkansas was arrested after they were suspected of being the benders, but the claim was quickly dismissed. Another article claimed that a group of vigilantes had intercepted the family while they were attempting to escape, executed them, and disposed of the remains in a swamp. According to this version of events, both the governor of Kansas and Senator York were aware of what happened, but chose to keep the matter secret. Yet in the very same month, another Kansas newspaper rejected the story outright, insisting that the lynching had never occurred and that the benders had already left the state before anyone realized they were gone.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Yeah.

unknown 12:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

The governor himself denied having any knowledge of such vigilante group.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_03 12:37

I agree with you. In the years that followed their disappearance, newspapers continued to chronicle sightings and arrests across the country. One paper sarcastically reported that the notorious Bender family have been captured in nearly every state in the Union, next week in California, the week following in Alaska. Eventually, China, Turkey, Japan, and possibly at the headwaters of the Nile. Basically, people were fed up at this point. They were like, yeah, okay, it's like, was it like the boy who cries wolf? Every time you say, Oh, they've been captured, no one believes it.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

However, in August of 1880, Wait, what are you gonna say?

SPEAKER_03 13:17

The case once again captured national attention when the Chicago Tribune began publishing a series of front page articles detailing the arrests of two individuals in Nebraska who were alleged to be the elder Benders.

unknown 13:32

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

The pair reportedly gave full confessions to the murders in Kansas. Daily updates ran You don't sound convinced. Because I'm trying to read it to you. Okay. Okay. Daily updates ran from August 1st through August 8th, documenting their transport back to Kansas for identification. As the story developed, conflicting confessions began to emerge. The woman in custody who claimed to be Kate Sr. stated that she had been a widow when she married a man named Alexander McGregor, also known as Bender, who already had four children. John Jr., Kate, and two other boys who had since run away. She maintained that she had taken no part in the murders. Instead, she claimed that one night a husband and wife had come seeking lodging with their two young daughters, and that the adults were killed while the two girls were buried alive. In another version of her account, she alleged that Kate Jr. had personally killed Dr. York with a hatchet. When questioned, she said the first person to be killed was a man named Brown, which wouldn't necessarily be the case as other bodies were found that were further decomposed than his. Because remember, when I said Brown was found and he had been there roughly six months. But if you think about it, they've been killing for longer than six months. They've been killing for about two years. By the time you've got to that many people, you're just messing their names up. True. I get that.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

And also there could be multiple people who call Brown.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Oh yeah, very common surname. Yeah. Also, there weren't two girls' bodies found that we know of.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

But some were really decomposed.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

Some were extremely decomposed. There were body parts that they couldn't identify, so we don't actually know the extent of who was killed or buried or found or anything.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

So they could well have been there. Mm-hmm. At the minute I'm believing that this is Cape Bender.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Okay. At the same time, a separate confession was given by the older man in custody. He claimed his name was Alexander McGregor and that he had been born in New York State. Wait, so are these people separated and then interviewed? Yeah. And their stories are aligning.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 15:48

Uh okay, this might be them. He described both John and Kate as good children who eventually ran away to Kansas. According to his account, his first wife died in Illinois, after which he married a second wife, Nancy Peasley. He claimed that while living in Illinois, he committed his first murder with Nancy assisting him in burying the body, and that he later travelled to Kansas to join John and Kate. Did he give a reason for the killing? No. Not that I could find. Is this I I did ask him to look up a little bit of this. Is this do you remember?

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yeah, I just couldn't find anything of them after after their confessions. Yeah. Let's just vanish.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

How? Who let them go? We hadn't gotten there yet, Christopher.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

Rewind.

SPEAKER_03 16:36

You forget he said that. It doesn't matter though. It really doesn't. But like we we couldn't find anything on why they would have done this.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Well, just because if he's not given a reason, then it suggests to me to, you know, support my theory that he's just protecting Kate Jr. Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

I like that theory, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

I like it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

It sounds like she could be the only one that's kind of got her shit together and is maybe I don't know. She's certainly the one putting adverts in the paper and she is. And and luring people there.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

And if we're to believe Pickering, she's the one that got agitated. Yes, you're right. And as well, the fact that the little girl wasn't physically murdered, harmed until she was dead, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

She wasn't harmed until she was dead.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Suggests, and this is very sexist of me to say, but you never know, I'm gonna say it anyway. Suggests that maybe the person calling the shots on who gets murdered, when and how was a woman. Yeah. And she's a line at a three-year-old, and she was of the thing of, you know, if we don't physically kill her and we just let nature do its course when we bury her, then that's on God.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

She can like, yeah, take it out. Because Marianne, I think, was estimated to be about 18 months.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Oh, so even littler than I thought.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Yeah. She's a baby.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

I'm surprised they didn't take her in.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

She wouldn't have known. Not at maybe at three, yes, but not at 18 months.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

And also she's not like a witness or anything. She's not old enough to speak. Exactly. So it's interesting to me anyway, but it does suggest that maybe the person calling the shots was a woman and she said no to that.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

Yeah. He went on to describe a cousin named Maggie, who was also in Kansas and staying at a place referred to as Bender's Hotel. There, he said, he helped John construct a trapdoor similar to one he had used during his first killing in Illinois. He alleged that Kate had slept with the first man they killed before murdering him with a butcher knife, and described multiple killings, including that of two young girls whose parents had been murdered.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

So this is the this is them, because they they're telling the same story.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

I d I don't know. Kate and John are telling the same story. I know. The thing is I don't know the timeline. I don't know when they were arrested, I don't know how. I I don't know. I don't know if I believe if this is them. I do. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

So what happened to them?

SPEAKER_03 18:56

Sorry. No, it's okay. Continuing, he says that Kate and Maggie carried out killings in the cellar by cutting victims' throats. He also claimed that John and Kate shared a bed and that both Kate and Maggie had taken lovers, including one described as a judge. The confession concluded with the claim that the family had eventually gone to Illinois to die. Now, do you remember back at the beginning when I said there was an 1870 census that potentially could have been them? That was in Illinois. I don't know if I believe it. By the way it's a connection. Is Maggie just a random fist? Yeah, she suddenly just appeared in this man's confession. Like there's no other reference to her at all.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Okay. So that's weird. I have a theory.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

Okay. Go on. Do you think they killed Maggie? I think that Kate is Maggie. Right. But they say Kate and Maggie. I know.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Oh, do you think that it's like two alter egos that Maggie is the like spiritual? Kate's the killer and Maggie is the Oh yeah, like bipolar sort of multiple personalities.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

That is not the definition of bipolar. We can't get cancelled on that.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

It's the same thing. It's all made up.

SPEAKER_03 20:07

Kate Maggie. Oh my goodness. As these accounts circulated, witnesses came forward with competing testimony. One man claimed he had encountered the elder Benders traveling on foot. According to a statement, they identified themselves as McGregor, said they were heading to Nebraska to claim land, and stayed overnight at his home where the woman used the name Nancy.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Oh, okay. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

Further reports suggested the younger Benders had been seen in Iowa. Can Chris remind me why Nancy's interested?

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Well, because the woman's name was Nancy, right? The woman who was under married.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

The woman who is claiming to be Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Supporting the McGregor identity, a marriage record was, I say reportedly found, but I did actually find it as well. So there is a marriage record for Alexander McGregor and a Nancy Ellington who married in 1871 and disappeared the following year. In one article, the woman claimed she had been a widow when she married McGregor, so this could explain the difference in surnames. But I found the marriage record. In Illinois, I think, or Indiana, they're all neighboring around the same time, and then they suddenly disappeared. This is what I asked Chris to look up. I couldn't find anything for them after their 1871 marriage. There is a potential 1885 Kansas State Census with it's the name McGregor, but the surnames are just initials. So there's an A McGregor, an N McGregor, husband and wife, and then there's like two or three children. I I don't know if that's them, and I can't know unless their full names were written. Clearly, I was into the steep.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

Yeah, and well done for that. That's amazing. And I would go to say, um, you know, it's like that probably is them, the 71 ones. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I I'm totally buying that this is the Benders. Okay. Because why would they be honest about it? About their names and everything. It's like why would they say half truth and then and then lie about the confession?

SPEAKER_03 22:07

I mean, were they tortured out of this confession or not that I'm aware of, but like I've been saying, we don't know, you know, everything that's reported in the newspapers isn't always true. They leave things out. Like unfortunately, we'll never know the full extent as to how they got arrested, their confession, any of that. Newspapers just said these two people were arrested in Nebraska.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

That was a really good point though, Chris. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Thanks, Jacoa.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

The only thing that would make me wonder was the fact that their stories are aligning so much, but then it They could have talked about it beforehand. Well, I I was more going on Chris's what if they were beaten into that confession. No, I get it. How then would they have have both said the same thing unless the police went in with that agenda or heard it from one of them and then beat it out of the other one the same, you know?

SPEAKER_00 22:51

And but no, that's a good point. Because if they were yeah, separately interrogated, yeah, and they're coming out with the same stuff.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

And if you talked about it before, like you wanted to confess and you talk well, no, because they they were just arrested and then confessed. They didn't like hand themselves in, so they didn't talk about it before. And even if they did, would you really be like, Okay, so we're gonna tell them about you know the two girls and the this. If we get arrested.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

That's a lot to top.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

You're not doing that.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

This is them.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

I like it.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

Yet even this evidence was disputed, with others insisting the descriptions did not match because the descriptions, like I read the beginning, were in all the newspapers, and people are like, oh no, that's not them. But some people said, Oh no, that is them.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Well, this is 1880, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:37

18 s yeah, 1880.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

So this is eight years later.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Mm-hmm. They could have changed.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

They could change.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

When the couple arrived in Kansas, authorities initially placed them under guard to prevent the possibility of lynching, but they were then publicly exhibited in a theater and crowds were charged twenty-five cents to see them.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 23:58

Oh my god. Contemporary accounts describe the scene vividly, noting that nobody was able to positively identify the ignorant people who sat on the stage eating peanuts and smoking until five o'clock.

unknown 24:14

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

I can imagine that. They're just like, oh this is fucking great. We're getting paid for this.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

Can't even make this up. You've got any more peanuts. If you wrote that in a novel, I'd tell you to take it out because it's too ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

I just got this this image of people going like paying their money, walking in, seeing these people just having a fag. I mean, like, what why what that's not even them?

SPEAKER_03 24:38

Best part is the the money that they got, the proceeds, were split 50-50 between the showmen, the theatre, and the police.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

I thought you were gonna say split 50-50 between the police and the vendors.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

That would be really funny. To be honest, now you said that it actually makes a little bit more sense because it's just 80-80, innit? And like they just want money, like yeah, yeah. But uh, but then as well, I don't know because there's such a sense of justice for the atrocities as well. So I'm thinking if they really thought these were the benders, would they be doing this or would they be wanting justice? So which makes me think maybe they knew it wasn't them.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Maybe.

SPEAKER_03 25:21

But then things take a little bit of a turn. Now they take a turn. And the man started to deny that he was a bender.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Sorry. That's just Chris every day.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

And even the sheriff reportedly stated that he believed the pair would likely be discharged. As the days passed, confidence in their identity steadily decreased. By August 10th, following a preliminary examination, the couple was released.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

This is so silly. So you've gone from full confession to We're not the benders. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Reports published the following day confirmed this, and public opinion had largely shifted to belief that they were imposters. Yet even as the Nebraska arrests collapsed, the story continued to evolve elsewhere. During that same week, a Pennsylvania newspaper published testimony from a man who claimed that the Benders had actually been captured and executed way back in 1873, shortly after their crimes were discovered. Two days later, the paper expressed satisfaction in reporting that the individuals arrested in Kansas had been proven not to be the Benders, concluding that this supported the claim that the real family had been put out of the way. One month later, another eyewitness account surfaced in Pennsylvania, again asserting that the Benders had been executed in 1873. This testimony was published anonymously. So you can see your next photo is two side-by-side clips of the newspapers. So the first clip says S. A. James gives the information on the authority of an eyewitness who is also a responsible man, that the notorious Bender family, four in number, were captured soon after the discovery of the murder of Colonel York, which is wrong because Colonel York wasn't dead. Colonel York was the brother, it was Dr. York who died. So there's already one inconsistency. The eyewitness says that the four were stood up in a row facing nine riflemen and were told their fate, that Kate was plucky to the last and called upon the captors to shoot and be damned, and that the four bodies were buried at the corner of the four counties of Labette, Wilson, Neoshow, and Montgomery. Bullshit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

See, I I I don't think it's bullshit. I think I think it's interesting they say Kate was plucky to the last when we've already agreed that Kate is the badass person in charge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

No, also which Kate.

SPEAKER_03 28:03

I'm assuming Junior. I'm guessing. He doesn't say, but I'm assuming because also, right, okay. I did not include this because there was so much inconsistency. It is possible that Kate Sr. was also known as Elvira or Elmyra. I can't find anything to prove that. It was in a couple newspapers, and it is actually on the Wikipedia and some other sources. I don't believe it. So I think in him saying Kate, I think he is referring to the Kate. Like Kate Jr. Because I think he would have like said Elvira, Elmyra, if he meant the elder.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

But then I also think that that could be just sensationalism just putting a line plucky to the end. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Because now this is sorry, this is like eight years after they've disappeared, or seven, whatever. He's read all the papers, he's read all the articles, how they describe her.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Like, is there anything else in there, Chris, that makes you think it happened?

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Um, to be honest, it's just the line that stands out to me about Kate. Um but yeah, I agree. It is a guy saying that another guy told him that this happened seven years ago. I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

But also captured by who, it doesn't say, and if it was captured by police or the vigilantes, they would be making a show of this. They're not doing this in secret. You're right. The police would want to do it to show the public that they're on it, and the vigilantes would want to do it well for the same thing, but it's pomp and circumstance and to show. Yeah. Yep. Can I just say as well, I was thinking earlier, imagine you know, those two people that ended up in the circus and then eventually no one believed it was them, they got off. Imagine if that was the Benders. Right. And the actions of the police making it so farcical and putting them in front of people like that eventually turned the public off to the idea that it was them and helped them escape again. That would be insane.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

They're just like, right, we need to face up to this. We need to go and hand ourselves in.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

Well, they didn't. They were just arrested and then Oh, I see, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they confessed after they were arrested for being the benders because people had spotted them.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

And then luckily the police were like ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Can you imagine? It'd be so funny.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

I also think that's what happened. Like, I think that was them.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

So you buy the Alexander McGregor. I'm starting to bend her.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

I think I'm like not fully there that I believe it, but I think there's definitely something there, and if we looked further into it, we would find the answers.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

Does that make sense? Like, I know. So I think that I agree with you. I do think they potentially could be the elder benders, but I'm not fully convinced. I think more research needs to be done. Do you think the information is out there to be found about that? I think so. How? Let me keep reading.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

You need to do this and write a book.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

I know. I'm obsessed. Turns out there actually is one or two books about this, and I was like, oh, I wish I could have read it before.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

But obviously, if the if you think the information's out there and that information isn't in those books, then it's still gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_03 31:04

I just didn't read it.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Okay, I see.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

Yeah. I'll read the book and then I'll get back to you if I'm reading one. Chris, you read the second one, I need a break.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

The gratification expressed over the reported capture of the bloody benders was dispelled, and it was found the people exhibited at 75 cents ahead were not the assassins at all. Their pursuit and capture seems to have been the trick of a showman's sheriff to put money into his pocket and theirs. Public sentiment is, however, reconciled to the disappointment since it had definitely asserted, ascertained, that years ago these phenomenal murderers and murderesses were put out of the way.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

I think if that policeman had done this deliberately and made the confessions up and just found two people Firstly, those two people would have been in on it and would have been getting a cut of that money. But also, why would that policeman not have said I found all four? Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

True.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

Why just two?

SPEAKER_00 31:59

And no questions were asked about what happened to the others.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

Unless he thought, oh, if I found all four, that would have been like evident that it wasn't that just made it up. Maybe it was like, oh no, take two of them out.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

You couldn't find four that look like each other.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Yeah. I don't know. But then the the the two people, who's gonna agree to that? You you the fear of lynching would have been so high. What a stupid thing to agree to.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

Well it sounded like they were just sitting on stage having fags and eating peanuts, isn't it? Yeah, having a great time.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

Yeah, but that's in hindsight. You didn't know that before you did it. Wait, did he?

SPEAKER_00 32:33

I mean they could have just been two people that were barely literate. He grabbed off the streets. Yeah. So just stand sit here and, you know, people walk past, ignore what they say, have a cigarette.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

And then if someone kills them, someone kills them.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

They're not gonna necessarily know what they're signing up to.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Maybe.

SPEAKER_03 32:49

In October of eighteen eighty, another family of four was arrested in Louisiana under suspicion of being the Benders. They too were released, this time on a writ of habeas corpus, adding yet another false lead to the growing list of mistaken identities. Nearly a decade later, in November 1889, the story resurfaced when two women were arrested in Michigan, suspected of being the Cates. Their identification was disputed, and the trial featured eyewitness accounts and documents linking the women to past crimes. Ultimately, affidavits and weak evidence led the judge to release both women. In 1904, a newspaper reported the discovery of an old trunk said to have belonged to the family. Inside were letters and documents spanning from 1851 to 1891, offering what appeared to be a glimpse into their lives before and after their time in Kansas. Among the items described was a bill of sale dated 1859, listing their belongings as they prepared to move to Kansas. Even more intriguing were letters said to have been written during later periods, describing stays in places such as Oklahoma, Texas, and Colorado. Locations that echoed longstanding rumors about the family's movements after their disappearance. However, as with so many claims to the Benders, the details were frustratingly vague. The article did not clearly state when these letters were written, nor could their authenticity be verified. No definitive link was ever established between the trunk and the Bender family. Who were they writing to? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Well surely we wouldn't have the letters that were writing to people.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

Yeah, I don't.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

It was found by a woman who I think like turned it into the police or something. Like it's it's very, very wishy-washy on the background of this. And to note that the bill of sale was dated 1859, right? And supposedly they were selling everything to move to Kansas. But it's believed the Benders didn't actually move to Kansas until 11 years later in 1870.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

I don't believe it.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

But a lot of hassle to go to, like 24 years on after the last arrest.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Oh, I'm gonna gonna fake a fake a whole trunk of documents about some long well not you know, not long forgotten, but some ancient a generation ago.

SPEAKER_03 35:21

Despite decades of searching, the fate of the four benders remains unknown. There was another theory that I did not put in here, but it is my personal favorite. Um, that they escaped via a hot air balloon. Yep. They escaped from Kansas in a hot air balloon all the way down to Mexico, where they got caught in a storm and their hot air balloons started to lose air, and so they plummeted to the ground, but they landed on a ship. And four of them three of them died instantly, except for John Jr., who took the time in his dying breath to recount the entire bender tale, and this was all reported by the captain of the ship to a newspaper. I think we solved the case.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

I mean, that's it. Ignore everything I said up until this point. Hotter Blue.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

And presumably had the bodies to show.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

Oh obviously, yes. Right. Yeah, definitely. They were autopsied and everything. Amazing. DNA tested. Totally the Benders.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Talking of DNA, do we have anything from the Benders?

SPEAKER_03 36:24

Well, funny you say that. Not quite DNA, but getting there. Modern scholarship and archaeological research continued to shed light on the Bender homestead and the events that transpired there. Dr. Laura Norman, an assistant teaching professor at the University of Kansas, has led excavations to recover artifacts such as pottery shards, tin fragments, glass and horseshoes, providing insight into daily life and the mechanisms by which the family concealed their crime. You can now see the three hammers that were found inside the bender home, as well as the four-inch tapered blade that does have what appears to be blood drops on it.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

That looks like a bust knife to me.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

It's still a four-inch tapered blade though.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Hmm. And this was found in this archaeological dig, was it? Or was this recovered in the house? I I don't know. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

Well, no, these were found initially.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

But I don't know, like I don't know what happened to them. I don't know how they ended up in this museum. I don't know the details of where they were at throughout the years.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

I'm just thinking if you stab someone with a knife, it doesn't have a few blood drops on.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

It's very suspicious. I don't think this was the killing knife, but I don't know how there's blood drops on it either.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

The wounding knife. Okay. Interesting. I don't I don't buy the knife.

SPEAKER_03 37:43

Really? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Uh unless they have they tested that blood at all?

SPEAKER_03 37:47

I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Okay. Can I ask when was this knife found? Did you say?

SPEAKER_03 37:51

Well, the the the knife and the hammers were found the day that the house was like So they were found in the house. Yeah, they were found in the house. That was the knife that was found in the mant the mantelcloth. And this is definitely those artifacts. According to the article I read and to the fact that they're in the museum and plaques, yes. Bob Miller, who purchased the 160-acre property in 2020, said it satisfies my curiosity to find out where all this stuff happened. Are there other bodies out there?

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Okay, he's creepy as fuck. Right. I'm gonna buy this estate and hope to find some bodies there.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

I mean, I don't know, I would do that. I think I would do that. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:34

Geophysical surveys have further allowed researchers to identify potential future dig sites, promising additional discoveries that may reveal further details about both the victims and the benders. In the years since, the story has been woven into local memory. The nearby town of Cherry Vale has hosted Bender Days, an annual event that drew visitors curious about the legend and its place in Kansas history. Their homestead was stripped away piece by piece until almost nothing remained, the physical traces of their lives disappearing just as they had. A marker was placed where the cabin once stood, later replaced, but bearing a line that captured the mystery perfectly. The earth seemed to swallow them as it had their victims. And perhaps that is the closest anyone has come to an answer.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

So, top theories? What do you think happened to them? Hot air balloon.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

I'm tired. I did too much thinking. I'm sorry. I go on.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

I don't I don't buy the Alexander McGregor and apart from the the fact that they managed to supposedly coordinate their stories, but we don't know that they coordinated their stories because like the newspaper article suggests, it could have just been them collaborating with the police and the theatre people to be to put on a show. It does seem like a weird thing to do seven years after the event.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

But the fact that there was so much interest and people actually wanted to pay money to go and see them suggests that maybe this case was still notorious and blah blah blah. So maybe it was worth doing.

SPEAKER_03 40:07

Oh, the case was there were so many articles I read even up till modern day. You know, or in the 1900s it was like 50th anniversary, 60th anniversary, the 100th anniversary of the bender killings. They've made TV shows, movies, books, everything you can imagine out of this. Up until I looked on newspapers.com and it was into like the 2010s, and I'm like, oh my god, those were shows that I watched and they had clips about the Benders. Who knows? Like I probably would could have watched it and just didn't like it was all in the background, I didn't pay attention to it. This is this is everywhere, and I only heard about this maybe two or three years ago.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

Yeah, I I I I don't know what to think. I mean, I don't buy that they're in New York suddenly. I mean, if you're wanted, you're not gonna go to New New York, you're gonna leave the country. I think when they go to New York? I thought they were catching New York, no?

SPEAKER_03 40:58

No, no. Alexander McGregor said he was born in New York.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Sorry. So where were they arrested? Kansas. Uh Nebraska.

SPEAKER_03 41:04

And then brought to Kansas for identity. Nebraska in terms of a look on your map, because I don't know. It's somewhere north of Kansas. The next one up. Is it the next one? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Oh, okay. So that's not far I think they'd have gone further, personally.

SPEAKER_03 41:17

With three weeks' time, I think they would have three years' time. Oh yeah, yeah, but I'm talking originally with three weeks' time. I think they either went to Mexico or Canada.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

If you're gonna abandon your entire life.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

Or they went out to like the territories that weren't states yet.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Right, okay. Well whi which territories weren't states in um in 1870. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 41:37

I mean Hawaii wasn't a state till the 1900s, so there's gotta be territories that weren't states in the eighteen seventies.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

They could have done all that and just come back. They could have To Nebraska for a different reason.

SPEAKER_03 41:50

Yeah, no, you're totally right, they could have.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

And left Kate and John Jr. wherever they were. Maybe someone close to them died and they were on their way back to Kansas thinking it's been seven years, no one's gonna remember or think it's us. Yeah. And they may not have realized until they sort of got nearer to the state that oh shit, no, this is still a huge thing. And then it was too late because they were already there. Mm-hmm. And then they were like, Oh my god, it's such a thing that people actually recognize us and we've been arrested. So fuck it. The other two are safe, let's just tell them. Mm-hmm. Because they knew it was them. They didn't think they could get out of it.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

So Nebraska was only admitted in 1867. So that was like a few years before next to Kansas. Mm-hmm. And then Colorado, North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Washington, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Oklahoma. They're all in the next 50 years.

SPEAKER_03 42:45

Yeah. So there was so much land there that just wasn't. It was still territories, it was unsettled. Like they could have gone anywhere. They could have honestly like gone in with some Native American tribes. You you never know. There's stories about people doing that. I have no idea what happened. They could have fled the country. They could have taken a boat to like France or something. I have no idea what happened. And I need DNA. So hard on Ancestry for any. I've done the McGregor's, I've done Ellington Peasley Benders.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

We need to ask AI to compile all of the missing people slash murders that fit the MO between those times, and then see if we can follow the journey of the benders wherever they went after, because they there's no way they didn't continue to do this. Right?

SPEAKER_03 43:43

I think they just moved to another place. See that's maybe we're smarter about it.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

That's what kind of makes me believe the theory about them being captured and uh executed by vigilantes because they didn't go on and do it. Because I can't believe that Kate would have been restrained and never having done it. She was obviously not so.

SPEAKER_03 44:01

But also, it could be that other murders happened and no one has put it together.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Yes, that's why that worked.

SPEAKER_03 44:08

It's never been recorded that other murders happened. I mean, if they went to like a the Wild West, like you're gonna count every person who comes into the town and whoops, they didn't leave.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Like and the only reason anything even happened with this was because that York Buck guy wanted to find his brother.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

And had the resources to do it. Yeah. Like round up hundred people and search every house between there and up to twenty people lived down before that fact.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

So yeah, they could have gone elsewhere and this could have kept happening. It did if they survived. Probably all just got somewhere and got TB, died in a week or something.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

That'd be really disappointing. Dysentery. What a way to go.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 44:47

I don't think they escaped by a hot air balloon. I don't think they were killed by a van vigilante group. I don't know. I think they I think they got away with it.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

You think they just got away with it? I think they got away with it.

SPEAKER_03 44:59

They ran away. They went somewhere else. And whether they continued killing or not, I don't know. If they did, they obviously were never caught.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

I mean, obviously people at the time thought the most logical thing for them to do was to flee to Mexico because they discussed it and were like, we need to send a raiding party out to get the back. So they thought it was more likely they went to Mexico than went off into the unincorporated territories.

SPEAKER_03 45:20

They could have gone to Canada.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

They could have, yeah. Well yeah, what what was happening in Canada at that point? That was us, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 45:26

I'm trying to think, like this yeah, this was just after the Civil War as well. And Kansas, when was Kansas settled? How did it be before the Civil War?

SPEAKER_00 45:34

Settled or became became a state.

SPEAKER_03 45:35

Ah, like yeah, when did it become a state?

SPEAKER_00 45:38

1861 it was omitted.

SPEAKER_03 45:39

Right. Okay, that's what I thought it was beforehand. Never mind. It doesn't go with my theory. I was just trying to think, like, why did they go to Kansas and my family went because when it was about to become a state, everyone who was living there was gonna vote if it was a slave state or not. And my family went to vote against slavery, so I wonder if they did that, but they they didn't go till nine years after, so it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Right. You were hoping there was gonna be a record of them there.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

Yeah, something, but you thought they were gonna be moving there to to vote against slavery.

SPEAKER_03 46:08

I just thought that there would be like some record of them, like I I don't know. Yeah, just trying to think like socially what was happening in America at the at the time, and it was Yeah, anywhere in America. It was a reconstruction, it was after the Civil War, you know. Because wherever they went, they will have had to got jobs. Mm-hmm. Change their names. Because Benders is now all over the country.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

They will have changed their names.

SPEAKER_03 46:30

I don't think they were Benders to begin with. Because the fact that I've done so much research and I couldn't find anything. There's no Johan Bender out there born in Germany or France or Al Say Sorrain in 1848. None. On that, what was it, July? Like there was nothing.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Well, maybe that's because they died and never got to repopulate.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

Or maybe John and Kate had that had like a weird deformed incest baby and But I mean John Elder.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

John Sr. Yeah. There's no record of him. There would be.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

There'd be some sort of record of him coming over as well.

SPEAKER_03 47:04

There's nothing. They would have Ah I see what you're saying. Yeah. There's nothing of them in Germany or France. They would have probably gone through Castle Garden in Jersey, because it's pre-Ellis Island. There's no record of them. Is there a Maggie? I didn't actually look for a Maggie Bender.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Oh get on it, Brittany. Elle A Maggie or what was the senior, Kate Senior's name? Nancy? No, no, no. The El somethingra or Elvira?

SPEAKER_03 47:33

Bender. Mm-hmm. I didn't look for that, but yeah. Because supposedly if she was Elmira, she married some other guy. They had a bunch of children. There was rumors that she had like other murder rumors surrounding her, but I don't think that was her, so I didn't include it.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

Fine. And you can trust your instinct on that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

There just wasn't any evidence. There was nothing to support it. But my sources are I'm just gonna say newspapers.com. Yeah. You have this document. When you do the show notes, you can do I've listed it's like 30 newspapers I listed. Just copy and paste them.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

Right, I will do that.

SPEAKER_03 48:09

1885 Kansas Census, Ancestry.com, Kansas Historical Society, the Library of Congress, HumanitiesKansas.org, and KCTV, which I believe is like the Kansas City local news station. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 48:27

Tune in next week for a real good tale. I um