A Cause That Defied the Court

Welcome to Red Herrings!

This week, Brittany tells us about a cause that defied a court.

Hosted by: Brittany Warren & Joccoaa Gray
 
Sound Engineer & Co-host: Christopher Brown
 
Edited by: Joccoaa Gray

If you would like to get in touch, please contact us at redherringspod@gmail.com.

Sources:

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Welcome to Red Herrings. I'm Jacoa, Master's student in law and human rights, host of True Crime Club Newcastle, and creator of True Crime Forum Newcastle.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Hi, I'm Brittany. I have two degrees in history and 15 years experience in genealogy. We're the red herrings.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Well, well, well. What do we have here? Two red herrings and the catch of the day. Don't forget about me.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Hi, Chris!

SPEAKER_03 0:27

We're the red herrings.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

And Chris.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Credit to Chris on this one.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

He actually gave me the idea for this.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

So I don't know if you know all the details, but that's okay. Uh wait, you do? I don't. Oh, good. Good, good. Um, it's very much out of my wheelhouse. So don't ask me questions. I don't know law-based. Thank you. We're relying on Jaqua for that. We are fuck no. So have you heard of William Penn? The name rings a bell. Okay, why? Chris, do you know what he did besides this thing I'm gonna tell you about?

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Is it something to do with Pennsylvania?

SPEAKER_02 1:08

It is. Oh, it then no. I don't know. That's all right. So you can look at your first photo now. That is uh painting of him in 1666.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Oh, what happened in 1666?

SPEAKER_02 1:21

The London fire, but it's nothing to do with this case. Uh he was 22 years old.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Are we sure he didn't start it?

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Uh no, we're not. I'm pretty sure that started what in a cow shed? It was a baker's.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

It was a baker, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:33

That was the Chicago fire. Sorry. Chicago fire started in a cow shed. Who how did that happen? Uh, cow and fire. I don't really know. I'm so glad I asked. Thank you. So Penn was an English writer, theologian, and religious thinker who would later become famous as the founder of Pennsylvania. But long before he crossed the Atlantic, he found himself standing in a courtroom in London accused of breaking the law. Not breaking the law. Any guesses on what we think happened? Christopher, keep your mouth shut. Sorry. He usually doesn't know this much about my cases, but what's his idea?

SPEAKER_03 2:17

I'm gonna guess that he did the thing where you tell a woman that you are gonna marry them and then have sex with them and back out.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Oh we've all done that, let's be real.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

Is that so? Chris literally lost his virginity with Brittany, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

That's true.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Don't think that's sorry.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

I will do one day, hopefully.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Oh god. Oh, right. Well we'll get to that soon.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

So we did.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Really? Oh, oh no, no, no, we'll get to the case soon. No, because I didn't in the background. No, I didn't mean I meant was I right? Was my guest right? Oh, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Okay, yeah. We'll get there soon. Okay. So he did.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Well, he broke the law, but I don't know if that's what he did. You see someone signed out. Okay. Okay. Born in 1644 at Tower Hill in London, his father was a naval officer who served during the political upheavals of the English Civil War and would go on to help restore the monarchy under Charles II. Wow. So your next photo is just a cool little plaque. Um, that's in the, I believe, it just says William Penn Quaker, born on Tower Hill, baptized in all Hallows Church, October 23rd, 1644, founder of Pennsylvania. So that's in the church. It's pretty cool. And it has a shield on it. It does.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Love a shield. Love a coat of arms.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

That should be your tagline. Love a shield. Love a coat of arms. Love he says it all the time. Love a coat of arms.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

You know, when you go around like a like an old church or something, as you often do. You see a coat of arms. As one does. It's so good.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

Really? I wonder what this is. I wonder what this fascinating where this comes from with quick. This is cool.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Yeah, it's pretty cool. I think so. Is it the I think it's the genealogy of the family? So she hates us.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Kidding.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Due to his father's success, Penn grew up in a very privileged household, and at 15, he entered Christchurch College at Oxford as a gentleman scholar. It was around this time that he began questioning the religious structure that he grew up with. While at Oxford, Penn attended private religious meetings with fellow students, preaching among themselves and rejecting the Anglican practices imposed on them by the university. Although his family were cavaliers, Penn found himself increasingly sympathetic to the persecuted Quakers. Penn later wrote that he often felt isolated within his own family. He did not share his father's military outlook or his mother's enthusiasm for social life, but was drawn toward religious reflection and contemplation. At Oxford, religious conformity was strictly enforced. Students were required to attend chapel and follow specific dress codes. Penn's refusal to comply with these rules brought him into conflict with university authorities. Eventually, his resistance led to expulsion. Wow, oh no, okay. This is quite the rebel. Yeah. When his father discovered this, Penn was forced out of the family home. No!

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Been a bad boy.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

His mother managed to reconcile the two and bring her son back, but she soon realized that his religious views could threaten both her husband's career and the family's social standing. To remove Penn from the situation entirely, the family sent him to Paris, as one does. He spent time at the court of Louis XIV and was impressed by the sophistication and elegance of French society, considering it more refined than the manners of English gentlemen. But he also felt uneasy about the extravagant displays of wealth and privilege that surrounded the French court. During this period, Penn studied under a Protestant theologian whose approach to Christianity emphasized religious tolerance and the role of free will in manners of faith. This made a deep impression on Penn, and he later wrote, I never had any other religion in my life than what I felt. Influenced by these ideas, Penn began moving away from the rigid doctrines associated with strict Puritan beliefs. After two years abroad, Penn returned to England as a fashionable and well-mannered young man. Amazing. And I didn't put this in, but like throughout his whole life, he just was obsessed with fashion.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

He just continued to be like, well, I don't want to get into spoilers, but like the only thing he splurged on was his clothes. He presented himself to his parents as mature, and his father now believed that he had the ambition and practical sense needed to succeed as an aristocrat. Penn's father enrolled him in law school, hoping to guide him toward toward a respectable career, but his studies were soon interrupted. When Admiral Penn, the father, became incapacitated with gout in 1666, William was sent to Ireland to oversee the family estates. While there, he began attending Quaker meetings near Cork and met the Quaker preacher Thomas Lowe, whose teachings strengthened Penn's attraction to the movement. Not long after, Penn was arrested for attending these gatherings. Rather than deny involvement and avoid punishment, Penn openly declared that he was a Quaker and formally joined the movement at the age of 22.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

And and this was illegal? Mm-hmm. Being a Quaker.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

Yeah, essentially anything other than like the Church of England. It wasn't, I wouldn't say it was illegal, but they were heavily persecuted. Wow, okay. In his defense, he argued that Quakers had no political ambitions and therefore should not be subject to laws intended to restrain politically motivated religious groups. Penn was eventually released from prison, but largely because of his family's influence. He was summoned back to London as his father was deeply distressed by this conversion to Quakerism. Although angry, he initially tried to persuade Penn to reconsider. He feared not only for his own reputation and position, but also that his son's defiance might bring him into dangerous conflict with the crown. When Penn refused to abandon his new beliefs, the Admiral again ordered him out of the house and threatened to cut him off from his inheritance. Oh God, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Parents.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

Left without support, Penn began living with Quaker families.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Well, this is the thing. You kicked him out of the house. Where do you think he's gonna go?

SPEAKER_02 8:45

What's he gonna do? Like literally. In 1667, when he was only 23, Penn was arrested at a Quaker meeting. The mayor noticed Penn's aristocratic clothing and offered to release him if he promised to behave. But Penn refused and went to prison instead. Okay, good for him. He later wrote that religion was my crime and made me a prisoner to a mayor's malice, but it was my freedom too. Yeah. I don't say this I completely miss this. He he does get released. In 1668, he began publishing religious pamphlets where he sharply criticized almost every religious group in England except the Quakers. Oh wow. He attacked what he called false prophets, tithemongers, and opposers of perfection.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

That's very cool. That's yeah. I was like, okay. And he's on to something realistically as well. Like he's seeing it for what it is, isn't he? Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Jacob's a devout Quaker.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

I mean, oh no, that's quavers. I was gonna say the tint of churches. Great with a sandwich.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

These are the profound theological discussions you got in the book.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Please write your pamphlets about this. Please send any free quavers to red herrings at dot com.com.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

He soon became one of the most outspoken defenders of Quaker beliefs. And as we have seen, this brought him into repeated conflict with authorities. Acting under a warrant signed by Charles II, Penn was arrested again and imprisoned in the Tower of London. Oh wow. The official charge was publishing without a license, though the real accusation was blasphemy. Okay. Yeah. That'll get you. That'll get ya. Penn was placed in solitary confinement in an unheated cell and threatened with indefinite imprisonment unless he publicly recanted. Ooh, and he's not gonna do that. Nope. He values his religious freedom. Absolutely. He insisted the charge was a misunderstanding and requested an audience with the king, though the request was denied and negotiations were instead handled through a royal chaplain. Refusing to abandon his beliefs, Penn declared, My prison shall be my grave before I will budge a jot, for I owe my conscience to no mortal man.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Good for him.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

After eight months in the tower, he was released. I don't know why.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

Eight months in the tower.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

Penn showed no regret for his outspoken views and remained determined to challenge what he believed were the injustices of both the church and the crown. At the time, the government continued to seize Quaker property and imprison thousands of members. One major legal tool used against him, I don't know if I'm saying this right, was the Conventical Article of 1664. This law forbade religious assemblies of more than five people outside the authority of the Church of England and outside the liturgy of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer.

SPEAKER_03 11:48

I can't remember where, but I've heard this somehow.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Okay, have you? The law was controversial since it allowed people accused of attending these meetings to be tried without a jury. The act was part of a broader group of laws known as the Claritin Code, designed to suppress religious nonconformists and strengthen the Church of England. Although the Act was originally intended to remain in force for only three years, similar laws were repeatedly renewed and used for decades. By the late 1660s, thousands of Quakers had already been imprisoned under these laws, and tensions between the English government and religious dissenters had grown increasingly severe.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

And that's why you've got a lot of Quakers that go and emigrate to the US, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Because they're escaping these persecuted.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

In August 1670, tensions came to a head. Quakers had been forcibly barred from their meeting house on Grace Church Street in London. In response, they decide to gather as close to the building as possible and continue their worship outside. On August 14th of that year, with a large crowd assembled, William Penn began preaching. I tried to find a photo of what the meeting house looks like today, but unfortunately it was destroyed in a fire in 1821. Though your next image is just an artist's like representation or interpretation of what the inside would have looked like when they were preaching.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

It pisses me off that all of this persecution, because I'm just like, it's literally so much more effort to persecute them.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Like better stuff to do.

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Let that be, God's sake. Like you're spending so much money and resources on persecuting these people and throwing thousands of them in prison. It's out maybe I'm just a bit burnt out, but I'm like, I'm tired. Why like I agree with so much ever?

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Why is it anyone else's business what somebody worships?

SPEAKER_00 13:45

And also clearly it didn't work, you know. So it's a total waste of time.

SPEAKER_03 13:49

It never works because people are gonna believe what they want to believe. Like people are gonna find their own community, like banning it like we found like we found with the cheese rolling. Like people are gonna do it. They'll find a way to get it done. Yeah, it it's in a human nature to to find something that resonates with you. People banning that is not gonna stop you doing it. Like, come on. I know. It obviously there was some sort of political threat, you know. They felt uh, or the Church of England felt threatened by this, which and I know you're saying thousands of people go into prison, but like thousands of people subscribing to the Quaker religion, like, isn't that big? Like it's never been huge, like it's not a huge threat. Like it's it's power, it's snooze fest, boring, hate these people, but also what a waste of time.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

They make fantastic oats, the Quakers as well. Wow, haha. So I mean, they've got something going for them.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

You know, funny enough, I was gonna include a photo at the end because it's William Penn who's on the Quaker Oats. Is it? And I was gonna include that, but I was like, no, I'm not going to. I mean, that's when it came up like when I Googled like William Penn. I don't know what I Googled. It wasn't obviously Quaker Oats, but it was something else and it popped up. And I oh, I think it's on his Wikipedia.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

I don't know if that's like the standard image or if they just made like a special image of him and Quaker Oats.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

I don't know, but see, I did think that from the next photo on our supplementary documents. Oh, because you look definitely. Yeah, sorry. It's a bad habit. But it's a literary way to go.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

I did not look ahead, just so you know.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

I know, I'm proud of you. You're my only friend here.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Yeah. Suck it up, Buttercup.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

She told me she was marrying her best friend the other day. She lied. Wow. Clearly, that was a lie.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Don't look ahead in the your supplementary material. Okay?

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Okay, honey. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

The meeting had been deliberately arranged in part to test the legality of the Conventical Article of 1664, which had been recently renewed in 1670. Among those present was William Meade, a merchant and prominent Quaker. Penn and Meade were arrested and sent to Newgate jail, accused of unlawfully assembling and disturbing the peace. I'm unsure if anyone else from that gathering was arrested, and if not, why did the authorities target Penn and Meade? I know Penn was preaching, but I I genuinely have not been able to figure out why Meade was arrested. Was he up there preaching with Penn? I I don't know. Maybe someone just didn't like him. Maybe someone didn't like him. I'm not sure the reason why he was arrested, besides disturbing the peace. Was anyone else arrested? Don't know.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Originally scheduled for September 1st, 1670, the trial at the Old Bailey in London was delayed until September 3rd, after preliminary disputes between the defendants and the court. When the proceedings finally began, two unlikely men stood together. William Penn, the son of a famous naval hero, 25 years old and expelled from Oxford, and William Meade, a wealthy London merchant, 16 years his senior. They appeared before twelve judges and twelve jurors, and from the beginning the courtroom was explosive. Twelve judges. And twelve jurors.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

Wow, okay. That's big.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

So now. How twelve judges?

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Oh, they just didn't have anything else to do. There was no TikTok in those days.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

Honestly. Right. So now. Right, what are we doing? I need you to choose, Jacoba. Would you like to be the recorder or would you like to be William Penn? I'll be the recorder. Right. So interesting.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

Because I want you to be William Penn.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

See, I thought you'd be the like the rebel fighting against the system.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

Oh no, I'm gonna leave that to you.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

So I'll be Mead. Mead has one line in this. So whenever you're ready, recorder, you may begin. What do we mean by recorder?

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Judge, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:45

Judge. Yeah, so he is basically like, yeah, judge.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

Do you know where you are?

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Do you know it is the King's Court?

SPEAKER_00 17:55

I know it to be a court, and I suppose it be the King's Court.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Do you know there is respect due in the court?

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 18:04

Why do you not pay it then?

SPEAKER_00 18:06

I do so.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

Why do you not pull off your hat then? Because I do not believe that to be any respect. Well, the court sets forty marks apiece upon your heads as a fine for your contempt of the court.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

I desire it might be observed that we came into the court with our hats off, that is, taken off, and if they have been put on since, it was by order from the bench, and therefore not we but the bench should be fined.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

I have a question to ask the recorder. Am I fined also? Yes. So as we can see, Penn and Meade approached the bench. They refused to remove their hats. Quakers believed removing one's hat to another person showed improper submission since all were equal before God. Okay. The court fined them 40 marks for the refusal. Even though it was like the court essentially said, Well, they came in with their hats on.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

And the court put them on.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Yeah, yeah. So basically you you explain.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Well, I mean the guy Penn's saying that he took his hat off when he came into the court. It was put on by the bench, and then the bench fined them.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

Yeah. So it was like, well, why are you fining me for something you told me to do? It's just a power play. It is. The transcript goes on. Please keep your parts.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

I affirm I have broken no law, nor am I guilty if the indictment is laid to my charge. And to the end the bench, the jury, and myself, with these that hear us, may have a more direct understanding of this procedure. I desire you would let me know by what law it is you prosecute me, and upon what law you ground my indictment. Upon the common law. And where is that common law?

SPEAKER_03 19:47

You must not think I am able to run up so many years and over so many adjudged cases, which we call common law, to answer your curiosity.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

This answer, I am sure, is very short of my question. But if it be common, it should not be so hard to produce. Sir, will you plead your indictment? Shall I plead to an indictment that has no foundation in law? If it contain that law you say I have broken, why should you decline to produce that law? Since it will be impossible for the jury to determine or agree to bring in their verdict, who have not the law produced, by which they should measure the truth of this indictment, and the guilt or contrary of my fact.

SPEAKER_03 20:26

You are a saucy fellow. Speak to the indictment.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

I say it is my place to speak to a matter of law. I'm arraigned a prisoner. My liberty, which is next to life itself, is now concerned. You are many mouths and ears against me. And if I must not be allowed to make the best of my case, it is hard, I say again, unless you shoo me and the people, the law you ground your indictment upon. I shall take it for granted your proceedings are merely arbitrary.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

The question is whether you are guilty of this indictment.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

The question is not whether I am guilty of this indictment, but whether this indictment be legal. It is too general and imperfect an answer to say it is the common law unless we know both where and what it is. For where there is no law, there is no transgression. And that law which is not in being is so far from being common that it is no law at all.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

Round of applause. I'm so glad I made you do that instead of me. I'm so glad I chose the recorder.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Essentially, Penn insisted on seeing a written copy of the charges against him and the specific laws he was said to have broken.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

That's fair.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Something that was normally guaranteed under English law. Right. Right?

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Habeas corpus.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

However, we got him Leviosa.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

However, the recorder of London, John Howell, was presiding as chief judge, refused this request, and Even instructed the jury to reach a verdict without hearing the defense. Oh dear. The court refused. Oh, good. At one point during the trial, the Lord Mayor, Samuel Starling, shouted, You deserve to have your tongue cut out.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Ooh, is that something they did back then? Probably.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

We're talking 1600, so yeah. Oh God. To Penn. Imagine. I know.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

It'd be pretty grim, wouldn't it? Yeah. Do you think you could have a little stump left like black and about?

SPEAKER_03 22:28

You wouldn't be able to talk anymore. Or eat really.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Sweep.

SPEAKER_03 22:33

Uh-huh. Oh, that's such an awful oh god, never mind, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

Don't worry, his tongue did not get cut out.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Okay, good. That's good to know.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

To Penn, the issue was not simply whether he had preached in the street, but he believed the entire persecution rested on laws that violated basic liberties of English subjects. And he's not wrong. He's not wrong. As the proceedings continued, Penn repeatedly protested that the charges were unlawful. The court eventually ordered him removed from the courtroom. William Meade continued objecting until he too was forced out.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

Oh, I'm glad that guy had his back as well and like kept up that sort of charade. Oh yeah. To show that it was like ludicrous. Yeah. Along with Penn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Besties for lying. I was gonna say for life. Slay. Despite intense pressures from the judges, the jury refused to convict. The jurors were repeatedly sent out to reconsider their decision and were warned that they would face consequences if they did not deliver a guilty verdict. Come on.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

That's not how that works. It's not how it works now. Ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

The jury refused. Good. Why? I don't want to say anything now.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Samuel Starling threatened them directly. He is the Lord Mayor of London. He said, You shall go together and bring in another verdict, or you shall starve. The entire jury was imprisoned and each juror was fined the equivalent of a year's wages. What? Uh-huh. Imprisoned for what? For not doing what the judges wanted. Because they did not deliver a guilty verdict. The judges were like, uh no, go think about what you've done, go sit in the corner and come back and tell me when you've changed your mind.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

I'm shaking my head. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

At the same time, Penn was sent to Newgate prison for a contempt of court because he refused to remove his hat. After several days of confinement, the exhausted jurors returned their final verdict. Not guilty. Not guilty. Get in. Although the official charge was disturbing the peace, Penn and Meade argued that they had simply taken part in a peaceful religious gathering. At the same time the trial was going on and Penn was imprisoned, his father was dying. Penn managed to see him again and hoped to reconcile their differences. And when he did, he urged his father not to pay the fine that would secure his release. The admiral refused to leave his son imprisoned and paid the fine. I think in some sources as well, it was actually debated whether it was like his father who paid the fine or someone else. I don't think there's actual record to say who did it, but it's very much assumed that it was his father. By this point, his father had come to admire his son's integrity, and before his death, he devi he advised him, let nothing in this world tempt you to wrong your conscience. So his father's changed his tune. He has. His father's come around. Mm-hmm. I know, shocking, right?

SPEAKER_03 25:32

Maybe this is like, is this a social change as well? Is this like a cultural change? Because if the jury are like sticking with them as well, maybe maybe a lot of people are starting to see that these laws are whack. Stupid.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Yeah. I don't know. It's a good point. I didn't actually think about that. His father understood that once he was gone, Penn might be more exposed to political and religious persecution. Duh. Sorry, but I was like, I wrote that and I was like, well, it obviously makes sense, but I need to like make people think of that. No, yeah, of course. To help protect him, the admiral wrote to James, Duke of York, heir to the throne, in recognition of the Admiral's long service to the crown, the Duke and Charles II promised to look after Penn and even appoint him as a royal counselor.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Alright.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

But the legal consequences of the trial did not end with Penn's release. The jurors who had refused to convict him were still imprisoned and fined for disobeying the court. One juror in particular, Edward Bushel, refused to pay the fine. Bushel filed a legal challenge against the mayor and the recorder responsible for imprisoning the jury. The event that followed is now known as Bushel's case. Bushel's case became a famous English decision on the role of juries. It established beyond question the independence of the jury and confirmed that the Court of Common Pleas could issue a writ of habeas corpus in ordinary criminal cases. I didn't define that. I probably should have. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

And the right to know what you're being you can't be imprisoned without knowing what your what the reason is and it being published, blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

The jurors, now released on the writ of habeas corpus, sued the mayor and the recorder. They won their case before the Court of Common Pleas in a decision that declared judges may try to open the eyes of jurors, but not to lead them by the nose. Okay, great. So essentially the the judges can say, These are all the facts, but I'm not going to make the decision for you. Which that's how it should be. Yeah. This ruling permanently established the independence of juries in English law. The trial of William Pede sorry. Let's just combine their names. The trial of William Penn and William Meade became one of the most significant cases in English legal history. It helped shape the idea of jury nullification, the principle that juries may refuse to convict when they believe a law itself is unjust. After the trial, a pamphlet titled The People's Ancient and Just Liberties Asserted was published. It presented the trial as a dramatic defense of civil liberties and portrayed Penn and Meade as courageous dissenters resisting an oppressive legal system.

SPEAKER_03 28:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

For sure. Absolutely. Yeah. That's amazing. You'll be glad to know then that the work circulated widely, going through multiple printings in just a few months, and helping establish Penn as an influential voice among Quakers. In the aftermath of the trial, Penn resumed missionary work in Holland and Germany and eventually appealed to Charles II and James, Duke of York, proposing that English Quakers should emigrate to what would become the United States. In 1677, Penn and several fellow Quakers purchased the colony of West Jersey. Soon after, the king granted Penn an even larger charter, giving him control of more than 45,000 square miles of land west of New Jersey and north of the province of Maryland. It's a lot of land. There's a lot of land. That's insane. As the sole proprietor of this vast territory, Penn gained nearly complete governing authority, with the only major limitation being that he could not declare war. Fair enough. He originally proposed the name New Wales, and then later Sylvania, for his new colony, but Charles II renamed it to Pennsylvania, meaning Penn's Woods, in honor of Penn's father. Wow. Yeah. That's something I just grew up hearing like all the time. That's really cute. Yeah. Penn designed a charter of liberties for the colony that guaranteed trial by jury, religious freedom, protection from unjust imprisonment, and free elections.

SPEAKER_03 29:50

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

I know.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

This guy is for the time.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

I wonder what his thoughts on gay marriage were.

unknown 29:59

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

I don't know, with all that fashion stuff.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Well, you never mean married. He actually had two wives and like almost 20 children.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

Well, I think he's what's the word? A little fruity. Over compensating.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

I know all about that.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Do you have something you need to confess?

SPEAKER_03 30:23

Yeah. Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

One of Penn's most significant decisions was his refusal to impose a Quaker government. Did he do the whole separation, religious separation from state thing then? Is that what that was? That wasn't him, that was later on. Okay. So okay. Yeah. He instead allowed people of many different faiths to settle there, helping Pennsylvania develop into a diverse and prosperous society. In 1712, Penn suffered a stroke. A second stroke, several months later, left in left him unable to speak or care for himself, and he gradually lost his memory. Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

So sad, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 31:01

When he died in 1718, at the age of 73, he was largely penniless.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

What? Why? What happened?

unknown 31:09

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 31:10

So he went from having all of that land in state and governments and doing all this.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

The thing is, and I didn't say this because I I had to draw the line somewhere about where do I go too far into the history of Pennsylvania and not into the case. So essentially the father the father, the land was not given to Penn, it was given to his father. His father died, Penn inherited the land. And then he got more land. And essentially it was given to him by Charles II. And while his family was aristocratic, they did have money, they were high society. I I think he spent a lot of it in the colonies doing what I I don't know. I see.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

His wives, I guess. Same for these 22 children.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

Something like that. And one of these asset rich situations, but not actually cash rich. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

I was gonna say I've been to his house when I was younger. Oh wow, Penn Manor. Mm-hmm. Is it big? Yeah, Google it.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

Great. He'll have been well looked after though, will he? When even though he was penniless, like people wouldn't have just left him to rot.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

He'd have been like I hopefully, I hope with all those kids he had at least someone as well. I think he I wanna say he outlived both wives. He definitely outlived his first wife. I think she died very young. Clearly, there was like no divorce in that time.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Crazy.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

The philosopher Voltaire later praised Pennsylvania as the only government in the world that responds to the people and is respectful of minority rights. Later American leaders, including Thomas Jefferson, studied Penn's ideas about constitutional government. His belief that a constitution could be amended, and his principle that all persons are equal under God influenced the political thinking that shaped the United States. Until 2016. Yeah, tell me about it.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

That's alright. So that answers kind of your question that you brought up earlier. What did you think?

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Separation of church and state did depend on it.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Yes, that's essentially the foundation of that. And then it just evolves during, you know, the Founding Fathers, the American Revolution, Declaration, all that stuff. The jury that refused to convict William Penn and William Meade helped secure the independence of juries in English law. And the man they refused to condemn would go on to found a colony built on the very freedoms he defended in court.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

That's amazing. So many things had to go right for that to happen. Yeah. I think eventually it would have happened anyway, like there would have been a similar case, or you know, a society would have would have evolved and there would have been outrage anyway at some point.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

But what are the odds that it was him who would go on to found to find well, found this colony?

SPEAKER_03 33:46

Well, I mean I think that the odds were very high because of because of the circumstances.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

You know, and and one of the reasons that they wanted to to go over to America was because they were being persecuted, as as Chris mentioned earlier as well. Absolutely. But yeah, it's I it's um I'm also just wondering if that jury hadn't done that and he was imprisoned, we may have not found the change in the laws in the UK at that time, but he probably still would have went over and founded Pennsylvania. And taken that with him. But then would he have we're just coming down to like hyp Hypotheticals now? But would he have had that conversation with his dad? I don't know. Would his dad have then written to the king and asked for that sort of um protection? And yeah. And so and then so then would he have been even if he'd went to America, would it have ended up that way? Would he have been given that land, or would the land have been given to his dad in that way that he then went? Like, yeah, we don't know. A lot of things had to fall in line for things to work out how they did. It's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

And the exact jurors had to be chosen for that case.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

Yeah, because those jurors, like you say, yeah, had to have that sort of bravery and feeling. That's why I'm wondering if this was more of a societal opinion going on already. I think so. That that sort of increased that. Because it's hard to find in those times of this kind of situation, like twelve people. It'll have been twelve men that sort of were willing to put their neck on the line like that, unless they were pretty sure they were right and pretty sure they had other people's backing.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Yeah. And my only thought goes to like a hundred years prior, approximately, Henry VIII. Right. So he had, I don't know if you know, but I'm I'll just say, so he had three children, right, when he died. He had Edward, who died very young, I think he was twelve, and then he had Mary, and Mary is considered like bloody Mary. So she essentially killed everyone who was not Catholic, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:46

It's one of the T.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

Yeah, she was Catholic because her mother was from Spain. Yeah, so she killed everyone who wasn't Catholic, and then she goes on, she dies, she doesn't have heirs. We're now on to Elizabeth I, who was religiously tolerant. So I think in a way, it's maybe a social history, a social memory of we did have this religious tolerance at one point, whether it fully got to the Bloody Mary part where she essentially burned and and unfortunately killed everybody who wasn't Catholic. I I think that's maybe what they didn't want. So they were like, no, we'll put our foots down, our foots, we'll put her foot down, we'll put her foot down, we'll say no. Like, I I think you're right. Like, this definitely was a social thing, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

Yeah, that movement was already there, definitely. So so yeah, and and and even then you've just gotta think as well, even just the fact that he was born in that time and had those views, and and all those years, you know, sort of already thinking, this isn't quite right, and you know, and then just the fact that his mum sent him over to Paris and that's where he ended up for two years and came back, like all of that for for to happen for him to be the one, there would have there would have been someone else at some point, of course, there always is, but yeah, it's just meeting like that theologian in Paris, and then also his mom was from the Netherlands.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

So I wonder, like, what did that have to do with any of the this influence on him?

SPEAKER_03 37:13

Yes, okay, so she may have had that tolerance already. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

I find it amazing that these people, especially aristocrats, got so much done in so little time. Like he'd already been to France, he'd already like learned about the court, and he came back and he was doing this preaching, he was still 22.

SPEAKER_03 37:27

Like you say, no TikTok. Right? No, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Just waiting to do start some riots, why not?

SPEAKER_03 37:33

Like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Um the reason I gave it to you to look at was because I was reading something recently about a uh someone who was um charged with contempt of court for holding a plaque. It was like an insulate Britain thing, maybe you read about it. No so there was an insulate Britain group of protesters that were holding up traffic and were charged with, you know, well. So that was like a you know, this this still gets applied, this principle, and yeah. That was that was where it came out recently.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

That's pretty cool. I didn't know about that. I loved it. Yeah, your last few photos. So you have one that's an image from a plaque in the old bailey in London, and then you have a drawing of William Penn older, and then your last two photos that is City Hall in Philadelphia. So there is an a statue of William Penn on top of City Hall. And if you're from Philly, you call him Billy Penn. So that's what my grandmother always called him. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Did he have that cowboy hat?

SPEAKER_02 39:08

That's my cowboy hat, uh Quaker hat. Yeah. But also, side note, my family, different than William Penn. Not saying he is my family, my family is mentioned on a plaque on City Hall because they found it Philadelphia. So I wanted to throw that out there. You can cut that out if you want.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

You're so famous.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

What happened to William Meade? Um, I I think he went on and he just kind of lived his life and he was didn't go over to America with Penn. No, no, no. He I think he ended up buying a house called Lauderdale House. Pretty sure, because one of my sources is Lauderdalehouse.org.uk. So I think he went on and bought this house and made it look nice and did some other things, and I don't really know. I didn't look into them. Okay, amazing. I love that. Thank you so much. You're welcome. So my sources are lauderdalehouse.org.uk, Quakersandheworld.org, an account of William Penn, Cato.org, Oxford's University Press. I thought it was fitting that um Oxford has an entire blog about William Penn. Yet he got expelled from Oxford. The University of Texas at Arlington, the Library of Congress, the University of Toronto, and Minnesota Journal, Minnesota Journal of Law and Equality and Inequality. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

That's awesome. That was a short one. I went to school with some Quakers. Me too, out of uh Newcastle. Oh, you did?

SPEAKER_03 40:32

Yeah. Interesting. I never got to sort of um talk to them about their Quakerism.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Maybe they missed out probably.

SPEAKER_03 40:40

But it's interesting. They were always, um, please tell me if I'm wrong, because I don't know anything about Quakers, but they were always seen as sort of the more spiritual sort of side of things. Maybe quite liberal, quite cool. I just know they are very peaceful. Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

See, I thought the Quakers were more sort of Puritan Council Christmas kind of vibe.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

No, I think you're talking about Jehovah's Witness. I could be wrong, I'm not one, but Really?

SPEAKER_03 41:08

This is the first time I'm learning this.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

So why do you wear that hat in bed?

SPEAKER_03 41:12

How much wine have you had? That's for the cowgirl in it.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Oh, I see. And on that note, listeners, we'll tune in next time.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

Tune it in next week for a real good tale.