A Very Big Job - Part 1

Welcome to Red Herrings!

This week, Joccoaa tells us the tale of a very big job...

Hosted by: Brittany Warren & Joccoaa Gray
 
Sound Engineer & Co-host: Christopher Brown
 
Edited by: Joccoaa Gray

If you would like to get in touch, please contact us at redherringspod@gmail.com.

Sources:

The British Newspaper Archive

Birmingham Daily Post

Daily Mirror

Crewe Chronicle 

Coventry Evening Telegraph

The Sphere

Westminster & Pimlico News

Coventry Evening Telegraph

Bank of England website

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to Red Herrings. I'm Jakwa, Master's student in Law and Human Rights, host of True Crime Club Newcastle, and creator of True Crime Forum Newcastle.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

Hi, I'm Brittany. I have two degrees in history and 15 years experience in genealogy. We're the red herrings!

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Well, well, well, what do we have here? Two red herrings and the catch of the day. Don't forget about me.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Hi Chris! We're the red herrings.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

And Chris!

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Quick heads up everyone, this is going to be a two-parter, so don't forget to tune in next week for the end of the story. It's the 8th of August 1963, and 57-year-old Jack Mills was on his shift as a train driver for the Royal Mail Royal Mail Train dubbed the Travelling Post Office, going from Glasgow to London. It was a pretty routine and uneventful journey through the night until when in the early hours of the morning he reached Sears Crossing, where he saw the signal turned red. So Sears Crossing is just outside of Luton. He stopped the train, and although it was dark, he could see shadowy figures of two men on the line.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Dementors.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Dementors. Different podcast. He assumed they were track workers coming to tell him there was a signal failure. David Whitby, Jack's friend, and staff cohort, jumped down to use the lineside phone, but found the wires cut.

SPEAKER_03 1:29

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

The train had 70 post office employees on board and numerous large high-value packets containing money, which were being returned to the head officers of various banks in London. There was also what was called a high value coach where five staff were sorting the mail into piles.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

See, I was gonna say it sounds like a lot of staff just for a cha uh one train, but then I guess they do the sorting on the way down there. That makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_03 1:55

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Because I thought they'd just sort all the mail, stick it on the train, someone takes it down, but I guess it's quicker to do it while it's on the train, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

That does make sense. Good job, Royal Mail. Don't know what the other 65 are there for, but Jack told the Chronicle that he turned away for a second, and when he turned back, he saw a masked man on the steps of the driver train cab. A balaclava covered his face and he was carrying a long bar wrapped in white cloth. Mr. Mills immediately jumped to attention, ready for a fight. He approached the masked man and grappled with him. He almost succeeded in overpowering the guy until a second assailant dealt Jack a crack to the back of the head. He was then beaten severely. They threatened Jack into submission, ordering him not to look up. Jack said the voices were London accents but not broad cockney. The next he knew, the cab was full of men, around ten, and he was threatened again to keep his eyes on the ground.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

What is the significance of wrapping the bar in cloth?

SPEAKER_02 2:55

I don't know actually.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Because like you if you're trying not to get blood on it or whatever, but surely you're gonna.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

It's gonna soak through the white cloth.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Right.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Yeah, what is that? Maybe it was just holding it in a white cloth to not get fingerprints on it.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

Oh, it could be that. Or maybe if it was like a bat that was perhaps like recognizable in any way, I guess. Well no, they could be covering up.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Those recognizable bats everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

I think well, I don't know, I'm thinking like bats, like like baseball bats. Yeah. Ah, you think it could be I just immediately thought like a baseball bat kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Yeah, with like a logo on it.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

Anything, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Who knows?

SPEAKER_03 3:31

What kind of bats were you thinking? The animal?

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Yes, the animal. Exactly right. Wrapped in a white cloth just for dignity purposes.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Keep that in the blue.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Jack was then dragged into the passage leading to the engine room where David Whitby was standing with another masked man. When David had approached the telephone box, two men had appeared and pushed him back onto the train. Jack was then made to drive the train. They told him to sit in the chair and look straight ahead until they said stop. Jack was bleeding the entire time from his head down his face, and one of the masked men kept wiping his head. After a short while, a man ordered Jack to stop, and all but one of the men left the train. The two friends, Jack and David, were then handcuffed together and led through a chain of assailants who were unpacking the mailbags at the rear of the second coach. They were told to lie down on the grass and not look up.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

So they knew which carriage had the like the high value stuff in it.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

They did, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Right, okay. So we're thinking inside job. Jack was in on it.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Oh, is that what you okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Maybe.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Maybe.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

How else would they know? How else would they know? Maybe we'll find out. Maybe we will. Maybe we won't. It's all a mystery. One of the gang told Mr. Mills, For God's sake, don't speak, because there's some right bastards here. Keep quiet for your own sake. And another jokingly said, We will take your name and address and send you a few quid when it's all over.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Oh, that's nice of them.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

They never did. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Spoilers.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

So the raiders had actually split the train between the second and third coaches, and when they forced Jack to drive, he was unknowingly driving the engine and the first two coaches around half a mile.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

You might have said, How many coaches is it? Is it in full? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

Oh, okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

I thought no, I don't know actually.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

Many.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Many.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

That's one picturing.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

But here Jack's driving the engine and the first two coaches around half a mile onto a bridge which ran over a road. Under the bridge, they had a lorry ready, and quickly and efficiently they dropped 120 mailbags down into the lorry and then moved on to steal from the high value coach.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

So they were stealing mail and the high value stuff.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

I think by mail we mean money. Right, okay. I think it's like mail bags. Gotcha. With like big mail packets that have money in them.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Okay, I'm with you. So this was well planned.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Oh yeah, we'll get to that. In that coach was Mr. Frank Dewhurst with four other post office men. Mr. Dewhurst realized it was a raid when the window was suddenly broken from the outside of the coach.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Yeah, that'd do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Yeah, you feel like something's gone awry.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

I'm glad he realised at that point.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

He and the other men bolted the doors and started to pack mailbags in front of them as a barricade. They heard the raiders shout to each other from the outside that they were barricading the doors and to go get the guns. Then men burst into the coach. Unloading the mailbags took around 10 minutes. So these mailbags are the high value coach ones. I'm imagining like large, imagine like compost-sized, big mailbags full of money. Jack was then ordered back onto the train, but he exclaimed that he couldn't because of the handcuffs. So they bundled him into a post office van where four postmen were already huddled in a corner. One of the gang told them all not to move for half an hour.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Sorry, where did they get this van from?

SPEAKER_02 7:09

Maybe they also carried the vans in the train.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

I guess it makes sense, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 7:13

I mean, I immediately thought that like the assailants had the van and stole the van and had shoved four people in there, or like they were working in the back of the van.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

I I really don't I really don't know, but it would seem that it was like on the actual train, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 7:27

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

One of the gang told them all not to move for half an hour. Eventually, a guard who had left the train when it stopped and had tootled down the track returned and discovered the robbery. The actual robbery seems to have been carried out in about 15 minutes. That's crazy. Jack added that the process felt very organized, like you said, Chris.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

It was like a military operation, he said. No one gave any orders throughout. Everyone had their own station and knew exactly what to do.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

That is really impressive, actually. So this clearly isn't their first gig.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Well it's their first well, actually, we'll get to it, but for some of them, yes, for some of them no.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

That's impressive. Maybe they just practice a lot.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Practice rabbing trains?

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Well, you know, practice the the you know, have a dry run through.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

I think they practice surprisingly little for how well they execute.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Right, that's really impressive. I think they deserve to get away with it.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Well, you might be in luck.

unknown 8:24

Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

He felt that at least some of the assailants had to have had some insider knowledge from the way they split the trains.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Yeah, I mean I would have no idea how to split a train.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

I know, it's quite the feat, right? Right. You just cut it in half.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Okay, Brittany.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

Butter knife style.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Jack Mills sustained serious head injuries during the attack, including a black eye, four lacerations to the back of his head, all of which required stitches, and was bruised pretty much all over.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Okay, so maybe he wasn't in on it. I think that's right. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Here you can see a picture of Jack after the attack on the first page of your document.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Oh wow. Okay, that's pretty bad. He does look like he's been bandaged up like he was in a cartoon, though.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

I keep thinking that. That's true, actually.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Was this for the jury, perhaps?

SPEAKER_02 9:11

I think this was like just in the days after.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

He looks quite traumatized to me.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

He does look fairly traumatized. He's got that thousand-yard stare sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

You can kind of see the black eye as well.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

I think it's in black and white, Brittany, that's why it's a big thing.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Well, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

So rude. According to newspapers, he was still suffering from shock at least a month later. He was rewarded for his bravery in the way of twenty five guineas and a certificate. He was also presented with a special tie in the old northwestern colours of British Railways.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

It was very easy to uh to please people back then, wasn't it? Nowadays you'd be having like a whole lawsuit, you'd be getting thousands of pounds for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Like, do you think so? Do you think you would get a shitload of money if this happened to you now? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

You'd be like negligence of the train company for stopping. They should have put locks on the doors, they should have you know all that sort of stuff. Yes, yes. I don't know, what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 10:03

Oh yeah. Uh-huh. Now you mention it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Because surely there were changes made after this happened to make sure it couldn't happen again.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

They they adjusted the security, let's say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

But he was happy with the tie, was he?

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Well, I don't know if he was happy with it, but he accepted it. It was all he was gonna get.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

So I've looked for this tie or ties like it, and I couldn't find anything exactly matching. But I do think it was a sort of navy blue tie with possibly red stripes on. He told the newspaper that he was just glad to be home and was excited to go fishing when he was better. Oh cutie pie.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

But he never recovered.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Well, actually, he died four years later of leukemia. So sorry.

unknown 10:42

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

So at least some fish.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

His son was really bitter about it because his son seemed to feel like his dad's death was a direct consequence.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

I don't got leukemia, you're probably.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

I mean, yeah, I don't think a bang to the head can cause leukemia, can it? I'm not a doctor, but I don't believe so. I don't believe so either.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

But i his son did tie those two together and was really I mean, if anything, probably being like looked over by the doctors after you got beaten up and they maybe caught the leukemia. So if anything, they maybe caught it early. I don't think optimistic.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Unfortunately, I don't think that's how that played out. Okay. I could be wrong. I mean, I didn't look into it, but it didn't sound like it.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

We're being optimistic on this project. Yeah, we are. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

We have to be some positivity. Now, this isn't part of Jack's story, but David Whitby said that one of the bandits behaved like an utmost gentleman. He told the Winsford Chronicle that the man bandaged up Jack's head and told him that no one had meant to hurt him.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

So, what was all the bludgeoning about? Well, what were they attempting to do then?

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Accidental?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Oh, okay, accidental bludgeoning.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Smacked you on the head. Uh-huh. You know, sometimes you're just you're carrying a bat and it accidentally hits someone on the back of the head. I don't know what to tell you, Chris. It just happens.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

It's probably the wings, they flap around quite a lot.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

They were also told they were allowed to have a smoke. So David got out his cigarettes and lit one up, not before offering them out to the assailants.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

I know. One balaclavered bandit took one using David's lighter to light his smoke. The two men were released from their handcuffs at the hospital. So on page two here, you can see a photo of David and his mother.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Oh, they look happy. I love the posed teapot.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

Yeah. She's like, oh, we're gonna be in the newspaper.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Yeah, I bet she got so dolls out of that picture. You can tell.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

She's got her earrings on, she's got her best party on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

You may also be pleased to learn, because the paper put this in for some reason, that David's widowed mother was a keen dancer. Oh, great at a Kaylee. Probably. She looks like a Kaylee less. She does. She does.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Is this like these Daily Mail articles where they put wherever they mention the house, they tell you the price of the house?

SPEAKER_02 12:56

What?

SPEAKER_03 12:58

No. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

You know, if a story is about someone, you get they were she lives in her 250,000 acre estate or something.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Goals. The gang got away with, okay, guess. How much did they take? Oh, this is hard.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

So we got rewarded with twenty-five guineas, and they were taking money from Glasgow banks to London.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

A lot. I think they got away with a lot. It's hard because are you talking like sixties?

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Fifteen hundred pounds.

SPEAKER_03 13:29

Or now. I'm thinking thousands.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Two and a half million.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

What the fuck? I was gonna say in those days or that's why.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

It had to be a lot, yeah. Adjusted for inflation.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

Five million.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Forty million.

SPEAKER_03 13:44

Forty million?

SPEAKER_02 13:45

I don't know anything like that. According to the Bank of England inflation calculator, that's just over forty-six million quids today. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

That's quite a lot of money. And how many were there? Like 10-ish people?

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Twelve.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Twelve. Okay. So it's like a good three and a bit million each.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Twelve plus. But yeah, they got a canny wedge.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Mm-hmm. So I might say worth it.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

I would say worth it.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

On page three of your document, you can see some of the money on display at Thames Valley Police's Museum in Sullumstead near Reading.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Okay, so spoilers, we know they got some of it back. So they didn't all get away with it.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

And so I think this is what we might be saying when we say mail bags, you see how they're sort of wrapped. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

Yeah, it's like a man bag.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

A merse. I mean like the paper.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Right, yeah, sorry. So it's like money, it looks like money just wrapped in like parcel paper, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Yeah, right. As you can imagine, shit kicked off after this. Do you know what I love reading in newspapers when something big like this happens? The write-in section. Chris, may you do the honours of reading aptly named somehow Mr K. Longbottom's letter to the Liverpool Daily Post from the 14th of August 1963.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

I would love to. Is this with the Liverpool accent or Ooh yes. Sir, one cannot help feeling that the gang responsible for the hold up last week would have been considerably discomforted if it had shown up in the charge of a steam engine. Compared with a calm and unencumbered diesel cab, the cramped and dangerous footplay of a locomotive is no place to stage a hand to hand scuffle. If the trainmen had realized in time that they were in fact being attacked, they would have had plenty to defend themselves with, from shovels and pokers to live steam and hot coals. Moreover, the working of the ejector necessary to blow off the brakes before any of the coaches could be parted requires considerably more skill and time than does the master brake control on a diesel electric machine.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Your accent's slipping.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Yeah, sorry. I've given up.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

I thought the same.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

The security angle of the steam versus diesel controversy is probably one which has never even been considered. My bet is that the whole thing would have been called off when it was discovered that one of the large Dutchess Pacifics was at the head of the train. This may well be the reason why such a daring adventure has never been embarked upon previously. Any student of railways will confirm that quite a lot of cooperation is needed between the foot plate and the man at the coupling before a steamhole train can be divided. K Longbottom, Childer Thornton, We're all.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

A reward for information was set at any guesses how much money they were offering for info on this race.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Okay, so they nicked two million. Two and a half million. Two and a half million.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

And that's in today's noise forty six today.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

I would think ten thousand pounds.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

But you was extremely low.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

I don't know. If you're gonna get two and a half million back, fifteen K.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

So they were offering 260k. Damn. For information.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_02 16:57

I know. What is that today? Four and a half million. Four and a half million.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

Did you do that in your head? It's just unmiss man.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

He's got a maths degree. Yeah, does he use it though?

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

A manhunt ensued for between 50 to 20 assailants from the robbery. Money started appearing everywhere. 10,000 pounds was found lying about in Surrey. A hundred thousand pounds was found abandoned in a wood, and on a site only four miles from there, thirty thousand pounds was found in the walls of a caravan.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

That's so weird. Like they were just running around and losing it or what?

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Were they I've thought about this? I think they were stashing it. Yeah, because walls were caravan, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

The caravan makes sense, but like abandoned in a wood? Like I can think of better places than just some house.

SPEAKER_03 17:42

Well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

If it's somewhere that you don't think people like go too often, I think there was a sense of panic as well between the assailants, I think, and it some of them maybe just dumped it just to get away from it.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Fair. They probably couldn't believe their luck. Like, were they expecting to get two and a half million? Yeah. Okay, right. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

No. They knew that they were gonna be in the millions for this. After the discovery of the money in the caravan, police began looking for its occupants, James and Cherry White. Is it Cherry or Cherry? How do you spell it? C-H-E-R-R-Y. Cherry.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yeah, Cherry.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Cherry. A couple who had seemingly vanished with their baby and poodle named Gigi.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Do we know if the poodle was involved?

SPEAKER_02 18:29

Heavily.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Right. By the twelfth of August, this happened on the 8th, the police had five homes under surveillance and had set up a whole new department for tips because they were taking so many. The name at the tip the name at the top of everybody's lips was that of Bruce Reynolds. Bruce was thought to be the mice the mastermind of the whole operation. Along with Bruce, police were on the lookout for Roy James the Weasel, who had been rumoured to be racing cars around the race tracks and visiting many hotels around the country in his brand new jag.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Okay. Did he pay for it in cash by any chance?

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah, props. Police went to a car race that James was rumoured to be attending. They mingled in plain clothes within the crowd but didn't find him. Eventually, the investigation into Roy James filtered out from England into Rome, Barcelona, and Dublin. Wow. The first mistake that the gang had made was telling the staff left on board to stay in their positions for half an hour. This gave the police the idea that the gang were probably taking the cash to a specific location within half an hour's drive from where the train was stopped. It's pretty good police work that. And they were right. Police mapped out a 30-minute radius and sure enough found the hideout used by the bandits. It was a lonely brick built cottage next to a farm around 23 miles from the spot they'd stopped the train at. You can see the hideout named Leather Side Farm on page four here, and then a picture taken from inside on page five.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

I wonder how they narrowed that down, because surely there were quite a few places within half an hour's drive.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Without spoiling anything, I imagine they asked around, and I think the person that owned this small site gave them quite a credible tip.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

And that's the inside. Cozy.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

It is cozy. Love it. Oh, and it's got a little rocking chair by the fire.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

I know. That's cozy. I like it. There was no money found in the building, but there were plenty empty mailbags scattered around and a recently played Monopoly board on the table.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

I love to think of them playing Monopoly with real money. That's the goal, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Yep. The box of the Monopoly game contained a fingerprint along with a print on a Heinz ketchup bottle. This led to the arrest of Ronald Biggs in 1963. A palm print of Charles Wilson was also found in the hideout on a windowsill, and a palm print from James Hussey was found in a stolen lorry at the farm. This led to their arrests in 1963 or 64, not sure on the exact year. Another fingerprint was found from a Mr Wisby on the rail at the bathroom. James Roy's fingerprints were found on a plate and on a first aid box. Edward Buster's prints were found on a Barclays bank wrapper and in a Land Rover connected with the raid. Robert Welch's handprint was on a can of Pipkin Ale, and Bruce Reynolds' fingerprints were found on two Monopoly tokens and that Heinz ketchup bottle.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

I think it's hilarious that they got back and I'm still stuck on the Monopoly. Like rather than sort of pack the money into cases, split it up, right? Monopoly anyway?

SPEAKER_02 21:46

I think they were there for quite a few days beforehand as well, I think. So I think lots of Monopoly was played.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Right. So this was like their hideout waiting for the right day.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Yes. Okay. Police were given another tip when Two men came to a garage and paid for three brand new cars in used five pound notes.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

This was a bit of a giveaway to the money taken from the train. These men were William Bowle and Robert Caudry. Their photos are here on page six.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Wow. I mean, one looks like a banker and one looks like a crackhead.

SPEAKER_03 22:21

Megamind. He really does remind me of something that isn't Mega Mind, but I don't really know about it.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

The guy from Ghostbusters. You know. Have you seen Ghostbusters? Yeah, I've seen it. The art dealer in the in Ghostbusters.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Oh, I think he looks like something from the Muppets.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Maybe.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

It's giving something like from SpongeBob. One of those Muppets that sits in the in the box at the theatre. Do you know which one I mean, Chris?

SPEAKER_00 22:45

No, because I have never seen the Muppets, I'm afraid.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Yeah, I know. Tell me about it. He's never seen The Nightmare Before Christmas either. So, okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Then they hired a garage and insisted they pay three months' rent up front in cash. The owner, Mrs. Clark, a policeman's widow. Oh my god. The red flags grew suspicious and alerted the police. Police came and inspected the garage where they found 79 grand in the boot of one of the cars.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Love it.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

If you're gonna hide it, like make it more conspicuous, not in the trunk of a car.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

That you just bought in cash.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

Yeah. I know. That's like baking on sign. Money here. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

When questioned about the money, Caudry said it had come from a man named Freddie. When questioned further, he broke pretty much immediately, saying, Alright, to be honest, the money came from the train, but I wasn't there. I was asked for my opinion on how the train should be stopped and promised a few thousand. So I told them what to do, and before I knew it, I was being put up as the front man for getting rid of the money. I was approached by Mr. F. I only knew him as Freddie. I can't tell you anything more, or else I'll be topped.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Do we believe him?

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Yeah, I mean, when you look at how big the operation was, and there were a lot of people that they did just get in for their insider knowledge, but whether Caudrey was there or not, that's anyone's guess.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

When Ball was questioned, he said it was all Caudrey and said that he had him under some kind of spell.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

I mean, he does look the sort of person that would hypnotize.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

I was just gonna say that. Those eyes are intense.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yeah, and the the hair.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

The five head.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Yeah, the five head is not doing any favours for him.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

I we probably won't put these pictures on the Instagram because there are 50 photos that I'm gonna be sharing today about this case. But if you just Google Roger Roger Caudry and William Bowl, Great Train Robbery, you'll you'll see it. There were reports in the weeks after the robbery that suspected members of the gang, James White and Bruce Reynolds, were on the run throughout the country. On page seven, you can find photos of James or Jimmy White on the left and Bruce Reynolds on the right.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Looks like something out of Peaky Blinders, doesn't it? The guy on the right, especially.

SPEAKER_03 25:06

I was gonna say, the guy on the left, like that genuinely looks like a photo that could be out of like the late 1800s or something. It looks like it looks very old. It does, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 25:15

The mustache as well.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Yeah, I think it's the way it's taken and like his cheeks look kind of like withdrawn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

And then Bruce Reynolds just looks like such an intimidating figure. Clark Kent. Yes, very Clark Kent.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Are these mugshots? They look like mugshots.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Yeah, I they could be.

unknown 25:33

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

It was also rumoured that they were making plans to go abroad and get plastic surgery to change their faces. The Italian police were also on guard as there had been reports of sightings of the two. Staff in a restaurant outside of Rome had rang in and reported that they had two men in their restaurant fitting the description of White and Reynolds. There were further sightings of Reynolds in France, and there were even rumours that he had emigrated to Australia. John Thomas Daly was wanted in questioning by police as he was seemingly on the run with his wife as well. Scotland Yard flew fingerprint records to Adelaide to help identify a man who matched a suspect's description, who had actually emigrated to Australia shortly after the robbery. That guy was Robert Cottrell, whose fingerprints matched the fingerprints found at the crime scene, and he was promptly arrested in Sydney in December 1964.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

I bet he thought he'd got away.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Devastated man. Wouldn't you be?

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Oh, you would. You'd gone to like the middle of nowhere, opposite side of the world, and they got caught up with you. In the 60s as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

That is impressive. Gordon Goody was arrested in Leicester while he was staying in a hotel with his then girlfriend. The receptionist of the hotel recognized Goody from photos and phoned the police. There's a photo of Goody here on page eight.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Was having a like a top-tier jawline a prerequisite for getting into this group?

SPEAKER_02 27:02

And a bum chin. On page nine, you can see a photo of Roy John James or the Weasel. In his little race car.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Oh, I love it. Why has he got like a World War I helmet on?

SPEAKER_02 27:16

I think that's just a car racetrack helmet from the 60s. I don't think it'd give you muck much protection.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

No, no visor, no nothing.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Well, you know, it's health and safety gone mad these days.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Oh my god, tell me about it.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

You can't just jump in a car and race it round a track anymore. Sign all these waivers if you die. He was arrested in December 1963 after a short stint on the run. He was carrying at the time around 12 grand in his handbag. The full story was in the Daily Express, so it started off with a tip-off apparently, so police went about their little tip-off area scouring pubs, clubs, and cafes, but to no avail, until they received another tip-off which led ten detectives through a small woods and out onto a quiet street called Rider's Terrace. Squad cars pulled up onto the street and thirty coppers got out and surrounded a home on the terrace with a big green jag parked out front.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Oh, so really conspicuous.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

So subtle. One officer marched up the little path and knocked on the pink door of the cottage, whilst two others gave another detective a boost up to the first balcony. Can you just picture that? There, that detective smashed a window into the house and burst into the room. He then ran downstairs to the front door to let in the rest of the squad. Meanwhile, whilst all of this is happening, Roy James, described as a man in shirt sleeves, whatever that means, squeezed out of a little window on the top floor near the roof, and he set off along the rooftops, leading to a full-on rooftop chase.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

It's reminded me of Aladdin.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Oh yes. Finally, he made a giant leap into someone's garden where, fortuitously, or not so much for Roy, two detectives were standing waiting for him.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

That's iconic. He was arrested and charged with his part in the Great Train robbery. In 1965, police raided a flat in a search for Ronald Buster Edwards. You'll see a photo of him here on page 10.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

How did he get the name Buster, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Because he busts things.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

Things. Windows out trains.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

I see, right. Yeah. Obviously. Why don't you get that? Just shut the fuck up then.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Instead, they found a very confused and innocent Mr. Russell Mr. Russell in the flat instead, who had no idea what was going on. When he complained, the police said they had been given very certain information that their wanted man was living there, but it appeared later that the information had in fact been malicious. I actually think I remember that Mr. Russell was actually like so Buster Edwards was his brother-in-law.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Oh, so there was kind of a link. Kind of a link. So how was it malicious then?

SPEAKER_02 30:04

I it didn't say anything more than that. Edwards was later found in the middle of the night in South London and was charged with robbery in September 1966, three years after the crime. He pled not guilty to two charges of the crime. It looks like the prosecution actually called most of the 70 staff that were on board the train to testify. Sixty-seven witnesses were called to Buster's trial alone. He was also charged with being one of the men who robbed Frank Dewhurst in the high value carriage.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

And were these do you know if these trials were all carried out at the same time or if they were some carried out immediately when the first lot got arrested and then this lot was three years later or I think it was chunks.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

Right. Because some of them were found later.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

No.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

But it's a good question though, because I do get to it later, but it might seem like a good chunk of them were all done together as well. Right. James White was finally arrested and charged in 1966 as well. That's the one with Gigi the Poodle. Bundles of cash were found throughout his flat. Two bundles of a thousand pounds and two hundred and fifty quid under the floor in his garage. He was sentenced to 18 years. I found his specific sentence, but I didn't find everyone's. I think there was a range for between twelve years and thirty years. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

That's a long time. Yeah. Bit of robbery.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Well, it was the assault as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Ah, I see. Still, uh.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

It looked like the public were most upset about the assault on Jack Mills rather than even the robbery. Like there was a lot of anger about that.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Mm-hmm. White showed a lot of remorse in front of the court. He pled guilty to the charges and said that he had had a terrible time on the run, lonely, homeless, and haunted. He had hardly been able to step outside through fear, and said he had insisted that if he took part in the crime, there had to be no violence. According to his defence, he couldn't give back all of the hundred grand he had acquired from the robbery. As living as a hunted man, he had been cheated and blackmailed out of most of what he had. Whether that was true or not, or just sympathy sympathy seeking, we'll never know. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Oh it's tricky, isn't it? I mean, it's the probably the way to go to get the lightest sentence if you know you're gonna be found guilty. True.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

So he only got a hundred grand.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Well, that's what he admitted to getting.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Right, so he could have got more and hidden more and they just didn't find it. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

And if if what he's saying is true about being cheated and hunted and things, then that may explain why random cash was being found everywhere if they were ditching it. Could be. Just as a refresher on page 11, you'll find the photos side by side from newspapers of our main missing suspects. From left to right, you have Charles Wilson, Bruce Reynolds, and Buster Edwards. Iconic photos.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

They are great photos, aren't they? Like if I was gonna have a mugshot, I want it to be like that.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Clark Kent style or? I don't know, Charles Wilson isn't doing so well.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Yeah, well, okay, he looks like he's been pulled out of bed.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

But the other guys Bruce Reynolds has something like, doesn't he? Uh-huh. He's so gangster. You'll find out more about Bruce Burnells as we go along, and he definitely he fits the vibe 100%. Buster Edwards is giving Bugsy Malone.

SPEAKER_03 33:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

So Bruce had been thinking about trains for a while. They tried to rob one already, but it wasn't successful. Bruce knew though that trains were vulnerable targets. He just needed enough people in the know by his side to help him pull it off. He started observing the trains, realizing that the Royal Mail trains were delivering huge loads of money bags on a regular timetable. He was put in contact with a man called the Ulster Man. Two of Bruce's comrades, Gordon Goody and Buster, met with him on a bench in Finsbury Park. The Ulsterman told them of a train that regularly travelled from Glasgow to London that carried up to six million. He gave them the details, the security, and the timetable. The mailbags on the train contained surplus to requirements cash from all the banks in Scotland and various other banks. The two came back glowing with the new information, relaying it all back to Bruce numerous times over beers and Jameson's whiskey.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

This is definitely giving Peaky Blinders, isn't it? You can just imagine it in the show.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

Have you watched all of Peaky Blinders? No. I was gonna say, I wonder if they do a storyline based on this at all.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Oh maybe they do.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

I can't remember. I've seen everything except the new movie that came out.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

That would be a good podcast, actually. We should do based on the actual family behind Peaky Blinders.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

You should do it.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

It's based on the You should do it. No, I don't I don't know enough enough about it.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

Oh, neither do we before we go into these. There's something a new invention, Google. I know literally nothing.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Don't tell the listeners about Google, otherwise, our entire concept of our podcast goes down the train.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

You think we just come up with these with our brain thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Yeah, it's all based on a true story. I have no idea. Certainly the first like the first season. I don't know how we watch the rest of it.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

I'm gay as the cum, but that main guy Killian Murphy.

SPEAKER_03 35:20

Hello.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Over the next few days and weeks, they got together with others in the criminal gang, meeting the Ulsterman for more details. They hatched together a meticulous plan. They met at Buster's flat and spread maps out on the kitchen table, plotting the best stopping place to raid the train. They quickly realized that where the train naturally stopped was too busy, so that was in Luton, I think.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Yeah, I can see it. Can you imagine just stops at the station suddenly? Like twelve armed men jump out, you'd think yeah, it'd probably call a place.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

The alarm would be raised immediately. They had to do it out of town, and for that they needed a base to get the goods back to quickly after the raid. They suited up and drove to Houston where they boarded a train first class heading north. It was a slow train that stopped at every station, giving them a chance to survey the land. On this journey is where Bruce found the spot. A patch of countryside with no houses nearby, and a road that ran parallel to the track just before going under the railway bridge and disappearing around a curve. I've inserted a picture here that kind of shows what this looks like on page 12, and then on page 13 there's a little map with labels where it was. So that's the road that goes under the bridge.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Okay, so there's the road parallel to it, and then it sort of branches off and goes under the under a bridge. So they hijacked it before the the bridge and then got him to decouple it and then drove it to the bridge, dropped stuff off. Right, okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

This was it. They'd stop the train on the bridge and drop the mailbags full of money down to the vehicle below. That evening they assembled again at Buster's flat, this time with the full crew. Bruce put his observations and ideas forward to the group and they agreed on the stopping spot. But how would they stop the train? There were no passengers on the travelling post office, so no one could work from the inside. They could lay a sleeper across the line, but they didn't want to alert the driver to anything untoward going on. So how does a train stop normally? The signals. Buster Edwards suggested a man called Roger Caudry, who might know. He'd been working with another gang on the South Coast doing successful train robberies.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Okay, so he was involved. He wasn't just some innocent like railway worker.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

No, no, no. Yes, he was never just an innocent railway worker. Um but again, whether he was actually there on the night of the robbery, we don't know. Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

Like a consultant from another gang. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

They decided to approach the other gang for their expert help and offer up a bit of cash in hand for the takings. The next day, Bruce went searching for their hideout near the stopping area. He found Leather Side Farm in the middle of the countryside. There was an outbuilding being offered, fitted with living room, bathroom, workshop, running water, and a generator for heat and electric. Bruce walked right up to the farm and knocked on the door. This may have been another flaw in his plan. He purchased the property through a rogue solicitor that had helped him in the past, Brian Fields. He bought the farm for the gang for five and a half grand and it was theirs. So going back to your question earlier, Chris, this might have been the tip that ended up with the police.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

You think if they're gonna get a bent solicitor, you might as well just put fake names on the deeds though. Right? Otherwise, what are you paying the solicitor for?

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Because if Bruce walked right up to the door as well, that's like a full description, yeah, yeah, and everything. And also a nice little track but trace back to Brian Fields who paid for it.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

At their next meeting, Buster Edwards brought in the lads from the South Coast gang. Bruce gave them a presentation on a blackboard running through the plan. When he got to the bit about the six mil, ears pricked. The other gang had questions, but they were keen. More than keen. They were ready. He carried on, he showed them how they'd separate the carriages and by who? The capture of the driver and his mate, the driving to the bridge, and the drop.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

I just think it was like they must have known there were 70 staff on there, and there's only 12 of them, and that presumably some of them were driving the getaway cars. So we're saying what, 10 guys took on 70 people, knowing there were 70 people on board, and they just got away with it. I guess that's why they had to separate the carriages, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:53

I think if you think back, if the whole operation only took 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

Yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

The rest of the 65 in the other carriages maybe weren't privy to what was going on.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Especially if, like, I don't know how often you'd come across a red signal and you'd stop, you know? Would they have thought anything was out of the ordinary?

SPEAKER_02 40:10

And the people in those carriages probably didn't even know why they were stopped.

SPEAKER_03 40:14

I was about to say, you know, the carriages just disconnecting, they probably just didn't they were like, oh, we've stopped. Maybe they didn't even realise that the front had gone.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Yeah, totally. It seems like they didn't, because none of them raised the alarm, right? No. So it would seem like this was done completely.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Could they have raised the alarm? Would there be like they wouldn't be still no?

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Well, the wires were cut on the line for, weren't they? So they couldn't even if they wanted to. I think it just was so quickly.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Yeah. You know You're not expecting it, are you?

SPEAKER_02 40:45

Yeah. They've just the train stopped and they're just probably just like we do, right? We just wait for it to start again. Yeah. Yeah. But what if the driver refused to drive the train onto the bridge? Someone had to learn how to drive a train.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Well, someone's gonna have to learn how to drive a train. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

Bruce and Goody had a couple of bottles of wine and went out at 3 a.m. to find one. No. To find a train?

SPEAKER_00 41:11

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

They went to Houston Station and found a train parked up and climbed in. They had absolutely no idea what they were doing, that is clear, but they managed to turn on the engine. They pulled away slowly, only reaching about three miles an hour. The pair had to eventually jump out of the cabin as the train was moving, and they realized they couldn't find the brake.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

So what happened? They left the train to hopefully come to a stop itself and fled.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Oh my god. So they there that's the extent of their train driving knowledge. They know how to go.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Yeah, yes. I mean, what else do you need?

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Three miles an hour. Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

And um there was something something in something else I read was from Bruce where he said that he basically checked all the papers the next morning to see if anything had been reported about this rogue train and there was nothing. So it looks like it just came to a stop itself and no one noticed anything was awry. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

So lucky they might get an actual train driver rather than just in get two drunks and go lick a train.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

Maybe you're on to something, Chris. As it turned out, they needed someone who could actually drive a train. And so when Ronnie Biggs came to Reynolds with a request for some cash, Bruce had a job to offer Ronnie. Turn to page 14 and see a photo of Ronnie Biggs here.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Again, another hottie.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

Really?

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Yeah. A shame about the like hairline, but apart from that.

SPEAKER_02 42:38

For 50 grand, Ronnie was to go out and find a train driver. Preferably a vulnerable one, maybe a bit past as prime.

SPEAKER_03 42:45

Do you think they chose like whoever was best at Monopoly? To go in as the train driver. They had a whole bunch of train drivers made them play Monopoly.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

That could have been the use of the Monopoly set. That's what I'm thinking. I think you're onto something.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

Would have been a good idea. That's not how this played out, but they should have had you on the team, Brittany. What do you know it? Ronnie knew just the guy. An old train driver working past his retirement had just contacted Ronnie for some home improvement work. Talk about the stars aligning.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Absolutely. And you're saying they gave him 50 grand?

SPEAKER_02 43:15

He was promised 50 grand. Oh, he was promised 50 grand. Did he get it? I think he got a lot more than that.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

If someone came up to me and said, You can have a million pounds if you find a train driver, I think I could probably find a train driver.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

Yeah, you don't have to be a hard-on criminal to take on that offer, right? But Ronnie wanted more than just 50 grand. He could smell the money on this job and he wanted in. So Bruce put it to the team. They weren't happy and complained they didn't even need a driver. Babes, you do, you need a driver.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

James Roy was pretty sure he could drive the train if it came to it. They took a vote and it was settled. They would use Ronnie's driver, and Ronnie was on the team.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Is this like that um that psychology thing? I mean psychology? Yeah. When when men are asked if they can land an aeroplane.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

They're like, oh yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Oh yeah, I could do that. If you were taught through it by the uh traffic control. Yes. I genuinely think I could if I was taught through it. But like it's such a leaving. Actually, I think I could. It's just a few leavers, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 44:17

A few leaves?

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Leavers.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

Levers.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Oh my god. Leavas. Leavas.

SPEAKER_03 44:22

Levi's?

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Do you not think you could could land a plane? No. No, is someone telling you what to do?

SPEAKER_03 44:27

No.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

You don't think?

SPEAKER_03 44:29

I wouldn't have the confidence to say, but like they'll say, yes, pull this or do that. And press that. I'm like, I don't even what colour is it?

SPEAKER_02 44:37

I always say just live your life like you have the confidence of a mediocre white man.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

I mean, honestly though.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

They did a rehearsal. The positions were decided. Bruce would signal via a walkie-talkie to Paddy when he saw the train coming. That signal would also be picked up by Caudrey and Roy on the signal gang tree. Okay, so we've got Caudrey at the burglary on the night.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

Good detective work.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Yeah, we solved it.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

It was actually written there the whole time, I just forgot. And they would alert the attack group on the tracks. Roy and Jimmy would separate the carriages whilst the attack group captured the driver, then placing them with Ronnie and his little old train driver, Peter. Peter would then drive the front coaches to the bridge. The attack gang would dismount the train and break into the high value packaged carriage, capture the five workers inside, and create a human chain to pass down the mailbags of money to Alf in the lorry. Piece of cake.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

That does sound like a piece of cake.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

Easy peasy. The Ulsterman recommended the night of the 7th of August, it was just after the bank holiday, which meant there would be more money on the train.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

Smart.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

So smart. You can see a snapshot from the BBC drama on the robbery there on page 15 where they've reimagined the chain of men passing the mailbags between them to the lorry.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

I'm just thinking it's it's like you could never have this happen nowadays, because obviously someone would have a phone on them, just be like, yeah, the train's been robbed. Like go live on TikTok or something.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

That's like a painting.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Yeah, it's like accidental renaissance vibes.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

The Great Train Robbery trial ended on April 16th, when 12 men were sentenced to a total of 307 years in jail. Whoa. More than 170 witnesses were called throughout the 51-day trial. So here it would appear that many of them were tried together.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

On Friday, the 27th of March, it was reported that nine men were found guilty of conspiring to stop a male, and three of conspiring. Stop a male. And three of conspiring to pervert the course of justice. The jury took 65 hours to come to their decision from a secret hideaway.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Ooh.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Okay, two questions. What were they doing to pervert the course of justice?

SPEAKER_02 47:02

I guess by hiding stuff and running away and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

But isn't that not just like expected? I don't know. Is that like I thought it'd be something like trying to interfere with the witnesses or something? With the jury or the wit yeah, the witnesses.

SPEAKER_02 47:14

Maybe they were.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Maybe that's why the jury was in a secret location. Yeah, I mean that's my second question. Why is the jury in a secret location?

SPEAKER_02 47:21

I think because they knew they were dealing with a really hardened, okay, mean criminal, bad lads. So they definitely feared for the jury's personal safety. But as far as the perverting the course of justice, I'm not sure exactly what those details were. I can imagine it's about hiding the stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:39

I just thought that is that a separate crime? Hiding like I guess handling criminal, you know, stolen property, whatever, but is it perverting the course of justice if you hide your process of crime?

SPEAKER_02 47:51

I think so. Or maybe it's what maybe it's hiding stuff for each other. Maybe it's if they hid stuff for the other person. Maybe because if you didn't murder someone, but you helped bury the body, that would be maybe perverting the course of justice. So maybe it's what you do for the for the other. I have no idea. Okay. It's not like I'm in university for law or anything.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

No, no, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_02 48:15

Seven of the twelve were also found guilty of the robbery itself and sentenced to 30 years, each in prison. Those men were William Bowle, 50, engineer, Charles Wilson, 31, bookmaker, Roy John James, known as the Weasel, 28, silversmith and racing motorist, Thomas Whisby, 33, bookmaker, Robert Welch, 34, club proprietor, James Hussey, 30, painter, and Gordon Goody, 34, hairdresser. Hairdresser, remember that.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

Brian Field and Lenny Field, the rogue solicitor and his brother, were given five years for their part of informing the gang, and John Wheater, another solicitor, was given three years.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Okay, so maybe that's where the perverting of the course of justice comes in if they solicitors are.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

Yeah, that would make sense.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Yeah. One of these men, William Bowle, 50 engineer, they had very little evidence on. Except for when he removed his clothes in his cell upon the initial arrest. They were sent away for analysis. The police said they found a small brass knob inside a lining of a pocket that had a tiny bit of yellow paint on it. This paint had been established as having been used by the gang at the hideout and had connected other members of the gang to the crime too. But according to Bruce Reynolds, this was impossible because neither he nor the rest of the gang had ever even heard of Bill Bowl. Bill Bowl was in fact an innocent man. Bill had been robed in by Caudry to purchase the cars and the garage, but he had absolutely nothing to do with the train robbery.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

So why was he holding his knob?

SPEAKER_02 50:01

Well you can do that and not be a criminal. True. Unless it's in public.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Yeah. Bill Bull.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Bill Bowl received 24 years for the robbery and died in prison.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Leaving a widow and a young son. Oh no. So there we have it. All men found, all men jailed. Bob's your uncle. That was Until the Escapes.

SPEAKER_03 50:23

Oh my god, no. I'm so ready.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

Tune in next week to hear who escaped, how, and where they got to. That we know of.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

That we know of?

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Dun dun dun.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

Exciting. So my sources for part one are the British Newspaper Archive, Birmingham Daily Post, Daily Mirror, Crew Chronicle, Coventry Evening Telegraph, The Sphere, Westminster and Pimlico News, Coventry Evening Telegraph, and the Bank of England website. Tune it in next week for a real good tale. Yeah, he's all right. Well, I don't know about that. Just the he'd get it bit is going in the end.