A Right to Freedom... Or Whatever

Welcome to Red Herrings!

This week, Joccoaa tells the story of a man and his quest for naked freedom.

Hosted by: Brittany Warren & Joccoaa Gray
 
Sound Engineer & Co-host: Christopher Brown
 
Edited by: Joccoaa Gray

If you would like to get in touch, please contact us at redherringspod@gmail.com.

Sources:

Stephen’s Youtube Channel, Naked Life and the BBC documentary on there. 

The Guardian

The Independent

The European Convention on Human Rights

Judgements for the Europeaon Court of Human Rights cases Gough against the United Kingdom, Strasberg 2014 and 2018, full citations in the show notes and information from Crown against Gough 2015 EWCA

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Red Herrings. I'm Jacoa, Master's student in law and human rights, host of True Crime Club Newcastle, and creator of True Crime Forum Newcastle.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Hi, I'm Brittany. I have two degrees in history and 15 years experience in genealogy. We're the red herrings.

SPEAKER_04 0:20

Well, well, well. What do we have here? Two red herrings and the catch of the day. Don't forget about me.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Hi Chris! We're the red herrings.

SPEAKER_04 0:29

And Chris.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Today we're going to be talking about human rights. Okay. Specifically, Article 10 in the European Convention on Human Rights. Now that is not to be confused with the Human Rights Act 1998. They are two different things. So quick little lesson on that. Yes, please. The European Convention on Human Rights is a banding international law. Banding? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

International law.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Giving Henry Plummer. I'm still in the Wild Wild West, guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Sorry. She's still a cowgirl.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Is a binding international treaty that came into force in 1953. It was created because of the atrocities. Atrocities? Yeah, okay, so I read this to New Hurren. I said atrocities, and she said It's like an autistic attacks. It was created because of the atrocities carried out in World War II, and nations wanted to make sure that something like that couldn't happen again. It was drafted by an international organisation known as the Council of Europe, which currently has 47 members. The Council of Europe and the European Court of Human Rights are based in Strasbourg, also not to be confused with the EU and its institutions which are based in Brussels. The UK signed the European Convention on Human Rights in 1951 and then much later formed the Human Rights Act in 1998. This was brought in to help the rights from the Convention be brought into UK law. Although a country is legally required to adhere to the Convention once signed, the Strasbourg Court does not have its own police force. So it depends on individual government compliance, supervision by the Council of Europe, diplomatic pressures, and reputational consequences when a country doesn't play by the rules that they agree to by signing. They may lose reputation or be applied some pressure by the other states, but ultimately they don't have to do anything about it. Although the system does work, individual nations signed into the treaty do consider it legally significant and do comply on the most part. In the UK though, as of nineteen ninety-eight, due to the Human Rights Act, we have the legislation to make sure our laws do conform to your human rights, although it didn't adopt all of the rights cited in the Convention. We can do a proper lecture style episode one day on the Human Rights Act if people want it, but for today we're focusing specifically on Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights. Do either of you know which human right is stipulated under Article 10? Nope.

SPEAKER_04 3:21

Is it right to a private life?

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Nope. That's eight.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Do you know, apart from, as Chris has just said, the right to a private life, Article 8, do you know any of the others? No. Guess.

SPEAKER_04 3:35

Freedom of you're not like meant to be tortured. Yes, that's that's right.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

You're not allowed to be tortured? Yeah. Well, yeah, I sure hope so. I just didn't expect you to say that.

SPEAKER_04 3:47

No.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Any other guesses? Think of like the Ten Commands No, don't think of the Ten Commandments.

SPEAKER_04 3:53

Right not to be murdered. Um Freedom of Speak Right to Free Enjoyment of Life.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

The right to life.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

Right to life. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

That's like the first one. Oh nice. No, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

No.

SPEAKER_04 4:11

Oh, we should be doing better at this. Yeah. That's embarrassing.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

I didn't grow up in the EU, so maybe I get a pass on this one.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Well, I've got the first ten.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

I've got the first ten for you. Okay. So you have the right to life. Prohibition of torture. You got the first two. So I think that's pretty the most important.

SPEAKER_04 4:29

Is it like don't cover your neighbor's neighbour's ass?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Don't what?

SPEAKER_04 4:33

That's one of the Ten Commandments. Don't cover thy neighbour's ass. Really? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

In written in stone? That's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 4:39

I know, it was great. They knew what was going on. Life would be a lot simpler if we went back to those times.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Prohibition of slavery and forced labour. Oh yeah, we should have gotten that one.

SPEAKER_04 4:49

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

The right to liberty and security. The right to a fair trial.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Oh yeah, I did know that one actually.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

No punishment without the law. The right to a private life. Freedom of thought, conscience, and religion. Freedom of expression. And freedom of assembly and association.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Today we're going to be talking about the case of Stephen Goff and the right to freedom of expression.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Ooh. Where are we going with this one? That's such an like I don't want to say it's an odd one to pick, but out of all ten.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

I think you may agree by the end of this, this is an odd one. I I love it. Let's go. Stephen Goff has been imprisoned over 40 times, and his convictions and subsequent appeals have taken him all the way to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg.

SPEAKER_04 5:43

What are you finding hard to comprehend about that?

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Nothing. I'm not finding anything hard to comprehend, thank you. But I It just seemed like it. No, but it's like, how many, like what do you have to do? What hu like hoops do you have to jump through to get to that point?

SPEAKER_04 5:59

What the the number of convictions or the or the getting to the appealing that far? Well, you just keep appealing, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Any individual can apply. But you don't hear it often. No, you don't, because well, yes, they have to have good cause. And you can decide later whether Stephen Goff did.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Would you like to take a guess on what Stephen's offences might have been?

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Crime. Robbery.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

No.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

Murder. No. So we're talking about the thing. It's gotta be something pretty petty. Sorry. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_04 6:28

It's gotta be something pretty petty if you can be convicted forty times. Because that means he's not spending that long in the world.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Right. I like expression like How might one express oneself? Dance. Was he not illegal.

SPEAKER_04 6:44

Well it depends on what type of dance.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Sorry, I got too caught up in like thinking what he could have done.

SPEAKER_04 6:48

Was he yelling obscenities at people? Yeah. Is he that guy that stands in the middle of the road?

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Oh no.

SPEAKER_04 6:56

This is maybe a separate guy, but there's a guy that just stands in the middle of the road and then doesn't say anything, gets arrested, goes to prison, doesn't say anything the whole time. As soon as he gets out, goes back and stands in the middle of the road.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Okay, we need to do a case on this. I need to look at it.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

That's your homework for next week, Christopher. Wait, can I guess? Any more guesses? How does it how expression? Is it like is it like a protest or anything?

SPEAKER_01 7:23

It could be deemed a protest, what he's doing with his self-expression.

unknown 7:29

Is he?

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Oh god, he's not like naked or anything. Oh no!

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Stephen Goff has a nickname. He is dubbed the Naked Rambler. Stephen Goff refuses to wear clothes. I love it. Fair enough. So now if you turn to your document, you will see Stephen hiking but naked. The first two images.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

He's quite bony, isn't he?

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Yes. Chris, I just want to inform you that Britney is zooming in a lot.

SPEAKER_04 7:59

Brittany!

SPEAKER_02 7:59

No, I just zoomed in on the one that was a little compressed.

SPEAKER_04 8:03

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

You can see anything. I was gonna say it's very strict. Yeah. It's really not that hard. You don't see anything dangling around, do you? It's covered by a thigh.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Really not that hard. That's what she said.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

I was gonna say it's very strategic photography. Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_04 8:20

It's very tasteful.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

I mean, genuinely, is there anything wrong with that?

SPEAKER_04 8:24

I mean, if you were walking alone and you saw him coming towards you.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

But I wouldn't be walking alone. I'd never do that. Some people do though.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

I would never do that. I wouldn't do that.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Men and dogs, not me. Men with dogs. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

I love you guys after a couple of glasses of wine.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Okay. I've had too many to count. I do apologize. Now I have a video for you.

unknown 8:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

I'm not sure we can put that on the internet. Funny you should ask.

SPEAKER_04 9:02

He's got very wrinkly knees, hasn't he?

SPEAKER_01 9:04

I thought you were going to say something else.

SPEAKER_04 9:07

Unless he still wears hiking boots.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

He does, and socks. I noticed this.

SPEAKER_04 9:11

Is this gonna be part of his case? Like the is the court gonna say, well, you can't obviously have believed in it that much because you're wearing boots. That'd be the argument I would make.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

I mean, yeah, it can it can be argued for sure. I'm gonna show you this video. Okay. Trigger warning for Stephen's peen.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Where did you find this? YouTube?

SPEAKER_04 9:31

His peen is on YouTube. I didn't know you could see Ping Pinguin nose on.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Oh, you can. It turns out you can. Oh wow. Would you like to? I know what Chris is gonna be doing tonight.

SPEAKER_04 9:43

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm gonna be googling.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Interesting, he was wearing clothes in the interview. Does he only hike naked or walk naked?

SPEAKER_04 9:57

I have some questions as well. It sounds like he was arrested for breaching an Asbo.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

What is that? Yes. So we will get to that. Okay. But do you want to ask your question?

SPEAKER_04 10:08

Was he convicted for walking naked? Because as I'm I'm pretty sure walking naked is allowed, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:14

I think we're just gonna have to get to it. Right, okay, let's yeah. But really, to answer your question, yes, he was.

SPEAKER_04 10:22

What he was convicted for bridging the house but not actually being naked.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

It depends, because it depends. So I do get to it.

SPEAKER_04 10:28

Okay, I'm excited to hear.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Steven's naked protest began in 2003 when he made a nude hike from Land's End to John O'Groat's in Scotland.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Whoa. Next That's a lot though. Like that's not just like on the gone.

SPEAKER_04 10:45

That's the whole country enthusiasm.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Next on your document, you can see there that his hike goes from the bottom west of England, bottom bottom west, yeah, of England, all the way up to the tippy top of Scotland. Yeah, I get my west and east Mickey. Bottom west next a lot. So it's a really long hike.

SPEAKER_04 11:07

That is a long hike. I mean past Carlisle. Yeah. Nice. How long did that take him?

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 11:13

A while, probably.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Yeah, many, many days.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Stephen was arrested many times between 2003 and 2012 in Scotland, but only spending just a month or two in prison. This changed in 2006 when he got naked on a flight to Edinburgh and was given a seven month custodial sentence.

SPEAKER_04 11:32

Yeah, okay, that I understand.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

But also You said he was only arrested in Scotland. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

So his hike started in the bottom of England. Yeah. As far as I can tell, there either were no arrests that happened until he got to Scotland. Well, I don't know, or they're just not out there. Right. But officially hit it started in 2003 in Scotland. So I don't really know. I don't know if maybe people turned a blind eye to it in England and then because stuff does come later in England with the asbos. So maybe but what is that you keep saying? I'll get to it. I'll get to it. Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04 12:18

That's where I'm confused because I was under the impression it's not illegal to walk around naked.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

So after that he was in and out of prison. I watched a video of him coming out of prison and he's just fully butt naked. Quite often they'd just re-arrest him immediately and put him back in.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

See, that seems bullshit. Like you're checking him out of prison with no clothes on and then you're immediately arresting him. That seems really harsh. Poor guy.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Okay, I can see where your your opinions are lying. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 12:45

I believe in his ability to whack it out whenever he wants.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yeah. Alright. Let's see if your opinion changes. It may not. Being naked in public in Scotland is not strictly illegal, but if someone complains, then it can be a breach of the peace or public indecency, and this is exactly the reason for Stephen Goff's arrests. Breach of the peace, for those wondering, is a relatively minor offence and can come from many different situations and circumstances. It has been acknowledged by scholars and judges that a specific definition of what constitutes breach of the peace is quite impossible. Basically, though, to constitute a crime, the conduct must cause ordinary people alarm and must be genuinely alarming and disturbing to any reasonable person. So the nakedness was obviously felt to fit within this criteria.

SPEAKER_04 13:39

Do you disagree? Yeah, I do think that's hard. I mean he's just wandering around. It's not like he's going up to people and being like, or maybe he is.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

No, he's not. Just let him be. Right.

SPEAKER_04 13:50

I mean, I think it was a bit odd.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

I keep thinking to like, you know, in like mainland Europe, there's like naked beaches or like so.

SPEAKER_04 13:59

There's like the naked cycle ride through London.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Yes, he cites this um in his yeah, in his appeals, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:06

Like nudists exist.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Get over it. Let them live their life.

SPEAKER_04 14:10

Now I'm wondering, is there something right?

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Is there something bad that really Right.

SPEAKER_04 14:15

I'm on I'm on his side. Maybe that'll change.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Now I'm on his side. Okay. I don't like if I were to drive past that, I don't really care. Let him live his life. Like it doesn't bother me anymore.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

If he wants to whack out his wrinkly penis.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Then let him go for it. What if he's walking through Hexham town centre? Does that change anything? Maybe you're imagining him in the countryside.

SPEAKER_04 14:36

Yeah, maybe I am. But still.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

Still. I was gonna say, like, it's not like no one's seen anything before.

SPEAKER_04 14:44

It's not like he's like flapping it around or it's not like he's like doing anything like sexual.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yes, that's very true.

SPEAKER_04 14:51

It's not like he's standing outside of school and waggling it about, you know?

SPEAKER_01 14:54

No. Absolutely. Which obviously would be That would be a totally different story. Right.

SPEAKER_04 15:00

But if he's just If he's like genuinely walking through town and he has something to do, he's not doing it to like get his rocks off or something. He's not doing it every day to be like, oh look at my penis.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Can I ask a question though? Yeah, yeah. Allowing that, would that be a slippery slope? I don't think it would.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

We allow people to cycle through London like waggling it around.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 15:23

I can see we're on different sides of the argument here.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Maybe we are, yeah. I mean, I totally I totally agree on a lot of levels, but I also think it's a slippery slope.

SPEAKER_04 15:36

What's the slippery slope? Like I I think there's a you can draw a line between him walking through saying I've got a right to be naked, fine, and someone doing it in to intentionally alarm someone. No?

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Yes. This is uh this is a hot debate. Nobody's wrong.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Yeah, I don't know. Like, yeah, maybe it could potentially be a slippery slope.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Like it's how many people would have to walk through Hexham every single day naked for you to deem it a problem? It's no longer like a functioning ordinary society. But I wasn't thinking more like that.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

I was thinking more like the individual themselves.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Could they go on to potentially do something that's then harmful? Well, was my that's how I was thinking. Like, but how do you control?

SPEAKER_04 16:26

But even still, I mean, if he's doing something like intimidating people or walking up to them and saying, look at me, look at me, sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

But if he's purely just walking around naked, wanting to go into like boots or something to get some whatever. Are you guys gonna change my mind? Oh my god. I mean, what do you want? Good point. Like, I think there's more important things in life to worry about.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Maybe I just I just sorry, I don't mean to be changing my mind.

SPEAKER_04 16:53

I'm Teen Naked Rambler at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Yeah. God, I think nobody wants is not harming anyone.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

I think if I walked into a shop and there was a man there with his pee now, and I would be surprised. I would be offended. Would you? Yeah. I didn't know you were.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

If he was like, if he was just minding his own business, going up like to an aisle, getting whatever he wanted, checking out, like, I'd be like, I'd be texting Chris, like, oh, there's a naked man here. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

Okay, but like, I wouldn't do anything about it, but if he was going up to people and like doing things that he shouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

I would be ringing the police. Oh my god, this is so wild, but we have different.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

I'm like, right, okay, in my head, I'm like, if the store people aren't calling the police, or if at least I don't see them in the act of doing so, why should I be concerned? Because they've probably clocked it at this point. They have cameras, they have people, like they're aware, so they're keeping an eye on it.

SPEAKER_04 17:48

But I'm like, if he's just buying like cough medicine or something, like yeah, if he's not doing anything mental, like he's not like pooing in his hand and throwing at the wall. We saw that cancel. Yeah, we did see that. We saw a woman properly shitting in public.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Yeah, you know the Santa Claus Church, St. Nicholas's church? Yeah. And then it's like the subway on the corner? Yes. It's not the subway, it's diagonally from the subway. Whatever that building is, the job center. Oh. That makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Hey, don't be mean about unemployed people. Some of us are alright.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

No, no, no, no. But it was Was it you?

SPEAKER_01 18:23

It was Oh god. That's my thought.

unknown 18:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Wild. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 18:30

Team naked rambler. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

I'm really, I'm actually really pleased because we're gonna have a good, we're gonna have a good session today, guys.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

I we're already having a great session. Like four wines in.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Stephen was born in 1959 and grew up in Eastley, Southampton. Don't ask me where that is.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

South?

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Hampton. Oh. Maybe. I don't know. He is one of seven children. Oof. There.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

Poor woman.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Hmm?

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Poor woman. I know.

SPEAKER_04 19:01

So this was like an attention seeking thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

There you can see him as a young lad on the next picture.

SPEAKER_04 19:07

He's cute. He looks like the guy from Stranger Things. Will?

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Will. He does actually, yeah. So his family said they never remember him having a problem with authority growing up, neither was he disobedient. He was a good kid at school, and at sixteen he joined the Marines. He left when he was twenty and travelled to Thailand where he joined a religious sect, the Moonies.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

This makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_04 19:33

Were they called the Moonies?

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Because their butts were out.

SPEAKER_03 19:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

No.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Do they worship the Moon?

SPEAKER_01 19:40

No. I wish. So here you can see a photo of him in Thailand.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

He looks really dreamy.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Quite aesthetic, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Yes. I looked into this religious sect. So the Mooney's official name is the Unification Church. Have you heard of it?

SPEAKER_02 19:57

No.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Okay, because it comes to America.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

Oh great. Doesn't everything?

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Uh-huh. Everything wild.

SPEAKER_04 20:03

Is this the Unification Church as opposed to like the un unified church? Or is that two different things?

SPEAKER_01 20:09

I have no idea.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Okay. Guess we'll find out.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

It was founded in 1954 in South Korea by Reverend Sun Myung Moon. He is their Messiah who should complete the works of Jesus, as Jesus wasn't able to do his own work when he was here. They believe that marriage and family is essential to continuing God's plan, and members participate in mass wedding ceremonies to help establish God's kingdom on earth. Well, funny you should say that. It looks like Moon himself would match couples and encourage them to procreate. It moved around and it eventually ended up with Moon in the US, where it was officially identified as a cult in the 1970s. There was controversy, lawsuits, and in 1982, Moon was arrested for tax evasion. Why'd they get them on get them on tax evasion?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

They got Alta Pone on tax evasion.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

I know, but like get it together. His followers saw the trial as a form of religious persecution. Some might even say he was a modern day William Penn. Sorry. I jest.

SPEAKER_04 21:25

We could call him William Penis.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Oh, you good.

SPEAKER_04 21:30

Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

A former cult leader for the group was interviewed by The Guardian in 2012, and he spoke about being indoctrinated at the age of 19. He was told to cut off his family and that his parents were Satan, and members wouldn't be allowed to sleep if they didn't make a hundred dollars a day for the cult. It looks like after its time in the US, it ended up in Japan, where in 2022 the Tokyo High Court ordered the official dissolution of the Unification. Church. It obviously reached Thailand somewhere in the 90s, and that is where somehow Stephen found it and moved there. He said he was looking for answers to life and they said they had them. But after two years by Stephen's version, the Moonies chucked him out for being a bad influence on the youngsters and he left. Was it because he was naked? No, not yet. He came back to the UK where he met his then wife and had two kids. Then he left them all to start his naked rambling journey. Stephen said he doesn't have any regrets about leaving his family, saying sometimes you've just got to follow your passion.

SPEAKER_04 22:38

Hashtag YOLO.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Pretty bad. I might talk a bit about this later, but this is just where it sticks for me because in the documentary I watched, you can watch it on Stephen's YouTube under the name Naked Life. In the documentary, you see home footage of Steven with his kids as babies, and he genuinely looks so happy, so content, such a good dad, and he speaks to the like home video camera about it being the most important thing raising little humans. Why would you leave then? Next are some pictures of him and his family.

SPEAKER_04 23:10

Aw, they're cute. Yeah. I noticed they're rambling. And he's not naked.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Well, for context, yeah. That they're sort of sitting in the greenery. That could be a garden. The first one, not the second. I can't remember them.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Oh yeah, no, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

No, you're right, never mind. But yeah, they're sort of out there. Actually, what I sort of say next might make the location of the photos make more sense. Okay. So it's odd to me that he just up and left for such an odd venture. As his ex-wife says, he's missed out on ten years of his kid's life. And for what? His ex-wife says also that she started noticing his love for being naked when they moved to Canada. Those photos obviously in Canada.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

I was gonna say, no way is that the UK.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

Although some are because some of it could maybe up on Maybe.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

So it would start with him jumping in a lake for a naked swim, but eventually it got to the point where Stephen was refusing to put his clothes on when his wife's mother would come to visit. Yeah, that's pretty bad.

SPEAKER_04 24:11

Like, don't get me wrong.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Okay, you draw the line at the mother-in-law.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Because you're in like a private space. That's why you should be able to be naked. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:20

Maybe it's because I've seen the next photo and I'm assuming that's the mother-in-law. No, it's not. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Is that his mother?

SPEAKER_04 24:25

See, I thought that was fucking weird.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

That's even weirder. Right, okay. So I think in my head.

SPEAKER_04 24:31

It's weird, but it's not, I wouldn't say you should arrest someone for that.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

No. No. I think, okay, if you're in the private home.

SPEAKER_04 24:39

Do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

Okay. Flat it out. Okay, fine. Yes, do whatever you want. But if you have, like, obviously not your spouse, like, don't be naked around your young children or your your like mother-in-law. I don't know. Like, that's where I'm kind of like, well, no, you shouldn't be arrested.

SPEAKER_04 24:55

It's a bit It's a bit weird.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Weird. But I guess to me, like, when you're out in public, like, maybe it's not necessarily people you know. It's not harming anyone. It's not har like it's people can have their distance, they can walk away if they want. And I guess she could have left the house, but I don't know. Like have you been skinny dipping before? No, I haven't actually. Very freeing.

SPEAKER_04 25:17

Yeah. I've not. It's very freeing.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

When did you go skinny dipping?

SPEAKER_04 25:21

Um, yeah. Would recommend. We should do it.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

When did you go skinny dipping? Just to answer Britney's question.

SPEAKER_04 25:32

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

I think we did we not go We've I've never been skinny dipping. Britney's looking at him very intensely right now.

SPEAKER_04 25:42

Interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Whoever you can do. Okay, we're not getting an answer, are we? We have.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

When? Not the sauna. The sauna doesn't count. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

No, the sauna doesn't count. Oh now he's gonna backtrack. He's never skinny dipped now. Now that's just staring him down.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Oh no, he's gonna say he's skinny dipping, but now lies.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

His memory has suddenly gone blank.

SPEAKER_04 26:00

Yeah, it's crazy how that happens. No, but genuinely it yeah. I mean there's nothing wrong with it.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Oh no, there's nothing wrong with it.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Okay. Wow. Who knew I was sitting with such a bunch of liberals? Yeah. Apologies. Don't apologise. I think you're probably right ultimately. So this did lead to their separation.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

I wonder why.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

After the separation, Stephen talks about taking this walk through Canadian woodland and suddenly realizing this epiphany, an overwhelming feeling of expansion. Oh? Well, not in that way. Maybe.

SPEAKER_04 26:34

Maybe.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

He actually starts to get really emotional talking about it like full tears. He said it changed him and it broke his previous ideas about himself.

SPEAKER_04 26:44

This sounds like a brain tumour.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Hmm.

SPEAKER_04 26:46

Do you not think? Like a sudden change in like a sudden sort of holy shit, I need to do this for the rest of my life, you know? This needs to be. Well, maybe. Maybe like a stroke or something. You know, like some It is odd, I'll give you that. It's just like a switch was flipped and suddenly. Yeah, it is. It is I'm gonna be a naked person for the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Yeah, yes. It is quite odd.

SPEAKER_04 27:11

Right?

SPEAKER_01 27:11

So he said if he'd been anxious about his true self before, he now felt certainty. So that's what started his mission to go and spread the word about the freedom of nakedness. Alright. So Stephen said that he thinks nudists are nuts because they'll actually heat up their houses especially just to get naked. That's nuts to Stephen. That is nuts.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

You do you.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Stephen said he likes clothes. He just wants to be able to wear what he wants and take them off when it suits him. In an interview, Stephen said he just wants to be able to adjust his clothes when it's appropriate. If he's sweating, he doesn't see anything wrong with stripping down. He was told when he was a kid to wrap up warm when it's cold, so it just makes sense to him to strip down when he's hot.

SPEAKER_04 27:59

Okay. So he's not in the winter he's not wandering around with it out. Or is he? Yes. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

So he's snow, freezing cold temperatures. He's not wrapping a warm this is a question.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Yeah, I think that's like a weird thing to say. Is it still illegal to walk around naked? No.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Love Brittany bringing us back to the law.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

Does he have a weird thing? Yeah, I mean the temperature shouldn't matter about whether it's illegal or not. What'd you say, sorry?

SPEAKER_04 28:30

Like, just you know, you wouldn't if you wouldn't arrest him in the summer, it doesn't mean you'd arrest him in the winter.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Right. Like, is it a weird thing to say? Yes, is it illegal? No. Do what you want.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

I've seen many weird things living in this country and beforehand. But I wouldn't say it's illegal.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

So in a BBC documentary, they follow him on a naked hike and he's physically shaking with the cold. He can hardly speak. He's doing that out of spite now. Yeah, he's like obviously suffering from the cold as he walks along naked.

SPEAKER_04 29:01

But again, proving a point, expressing your civil liberties. Mm-hmm. It's not illegal.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

So I don't really know if Stephen even knows truly why he's doing what he's doing. Sometimes he talks about showing people that they're wrong about clothes and the need to wear them. And sometimes he talks about not allowing nakedness in a free society being hypocritical. So for some of this episode, my research was to watch a BBC documentary that follows Stephen over England to finally get back to his mum's house in Southampton. Where's that? South. In that documentary, a conversation takes place between Stephen and the BBC journalist, I assume journalist, who was following Stephen around on his naked hike. So Brittany, please can you be the journalist? And Chris, please can you be Stephen?

SPEAKER_04 29:49

Why am I Stephen?

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Why not? Also, Stephen loudly farts during this interview.

SPEAKER_04 29:54

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

I'm going to be the farts, as God intended.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

Do you feel that you're helping other people by doing this?

SPEAKER_03 30:02

Yeah, I do. Yeah. But confronting, by helping to confront their false beliefs about who they are. Along comes someone like me, and uh it challenges them. Because if we uh consider ourselves as being a democrat in free society, then well, how far does that go? Yeah, yeah, there's a uh big uh uh bigger thing thing at bigger bigger thing at stake here.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

I'm I'm not sure what it is, but you don't have any manners, do you? Like when you just fart in public or in a restaurant or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

Well, it's all about uh asking what is manners, you know. Uh manner man manna. Man is about our manner, innit? And uh go with a size that's different. And you know, when you're in company with people that you feel relaxed and free with! Yeah, that word again, freedom with.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Is farting in public really about freedom?

SPEAKER_03 30:52

I mean Yes, it is about freedom, yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

You really think that's what freedom is about?

SPEAKER_03 30:57

Well, it's not also only about farting in public, it's about it's about being able to speak freely. Freedom of speech, it's expression. You maybe make it into a triviality, but you try bottling up your farts like I've done in the past, you'll get stomachache.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

That is one of the reasons I played you the video at the beginning so that Chris could channel. Love it.

unknown 31:18

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

So look, it's easy to take the piss out of this guy, but he's right about that stomachache, and I get what he's saying. I understand his metaphor. I understand his metaphor. He's saying that he feels like self-expression and freedom freedom of expression is important because we're human animals that need to express ourselves, and to not to be able to do that would be detrimental to our health. And as we learned at the beginning of the episode, the European Convention on Human Rights is in agreement, as according to Article 10, it is a basic human right.

SPEAKER_04 31:52

Yes. I think they're shoehorning being naked into expression. I think there should be a like a specific thing to say, look, you money your own business, you're doing your own shit. Is that expression?

SPEAKER_02 32:02

I'd say so.

SPEAKER_04 32:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:04

I was gonna say it kind of fits into right to a private life, but it's not really private, is it? You're wondering about in public, aren't you? Yeah, I guess if you were gonna pick an article that it fit in, it would be the expression one. Right. I'm not sure it's a perfect fit.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

But it works.

SPEAKER_04 32:19

That's your personal belief that it's fine to walk around naked.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

You're expressing yourself.

SPEAKER_03 32:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

Would it be any different? I was like, okay, a green sweater today, but I'm gonna wear a a dress tomorrow.

SPEAKER_04 32:31

Maybe if society said that like green sweaters were gross. Right?

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Like, would it be any different? Yeah, it's a bit it's not what we would consider the norm, but it's not harming anyone.

SPEAKER_04 32:41

Yeah. Yeah, I'm Team Brittany.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Sorry. Interesting though, how you use the analogy of instead of deciding to wear the green jumper, it would be a blue dress. But what if you didn't want to wear anything?

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Then go for it. I don't really care. I'm not saying that to you, but I'm saying to like anyone who wants to do it, I've got more things to worry about.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

How is it harming?

SPEAKER_02 33:00

Whether or not you're wearing clothes.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

It could be harming.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

It could be if you cross the line.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

What if you're not, then what if he's How would it harm someone? What if he's in that booth and he's buying his cough medicine fully naked and a woman walks in who has PTSD from a sexual assault? Walk out.

SPEAKER_04 33:20

What if someone was walking? Was that rude? Like that's like taking your your Yeah. The thing is, like What if someone had PTSD from someone wearing a I know a barber jacket?

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

You don't know when you go out in public, you cannot troll control what you see, what you walk into.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

It annoys me when I'm in a restaurant and someone tells me to stop swearing because there's kids at the next table. I'm like, they knew there would be other adults in the restaurant.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

You warn your kids hey, there's words that maybe you shouldn't say.

SPEAKER_04 33:48

I would tell you to stop swearing.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

No, just being it. No, like tell your kids, hey, there's adult words. You can use those words when you're an adult, or oh, if you're that bothered, don't take them to the restaurant. Right?

SPEAKER_04 34:00

Like kids shouldn't exist.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

So there's somebody from where I work that doesn't like kids. Fine, fair enough, right? She doesn't have them, she never wants them. You do you, Bill. I don't really care. But the thing is, when she goes into a public space and there's kids, she complains about the kids. But it's like when you go into a public space, you can't control that, is what I'm trying to get to.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

You can't say, yes, this is what I want. No, that's not what I want. You have to deal with what you're given.

SPEAKER_04 34:30

Yeah, agree. You gotta deal with society, you know?

SPEAKER_02 34:33

The thing is, if there's kids, ignore them. There are people if you don't like them in the world.

SPEAKER_04 34:38

There are people with dresses on, there are people that might be naked.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Get over the that's my thigh.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Very interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Maybe my mind will be changed when you finish, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

You guys are pretty hell-bent on this. I don't think it's gonna change. I don't think I'm gonna say anything necessarily now that's gonna change your mind. So Steven has followers and fans. Some people follow him around on his hikes, giving him food and money. And one guy, Augustus, even joins him. Is he still hiking?

SPEAKER_04 35:06

Can we join?

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

We'll get there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Okay. I have a small clip here to play you of Augustus and Steven. Okay, so I have thoughts. The video we've just played for context to the listeners is Augustus coming along to join Stephen in the hike. He gets naked with Stephen, he's wearing a loincloth, and they are just walking along the highway.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Sorry, if you want to say something, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 35:37

Augustus is definitely gay. He's getting something out of it.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

Nuh said that as well. I got the vibe.

SPEAKER_04 35:44

Yeah, I think the other guy, what's his name? Steven. Steven. I think Steven's genuinely in it for the love of the game. Augustus is in there because he wants Steven.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Plot twist.

SPEAKER_04 35:54

Yeah. Anyway, that might be a good one. Please don't sue me.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

How is this, right, any different from Naked and Afraid? You know the show?

SPEAKER_01 36:02

No.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

I've never seen it. Maybe it's an American show. Basically, these people go out to the wilderness and have to survive for X-Men of Days with nothing and they're purely naked. They show it on television, they blur it out, but it's still in Well, that's all the ways it's different. I guess, but it's like they're the wilderness.

SPEAKER_04 36:21

Have you seen Naked Attraction, Brittany?

SPEAKER_02 36:23

No. Oh.

SPEAKER_04 36:24

You've told me about it.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

In a lot of like Scandinavian countries where saunas are very popular.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Yes, I've heard this.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

Families will just go in. Yeah, move into a naked sauna. So are we going to be able to do that? Does that change be yeah. As a society. I think so. Right. I okay. So I feel I grew up in like two very different societies. You have American society. And German. And German. Two very different. I remember explicitly watching something while I was living with my dad and my stepmom. My stepmom's from Germany, and a naked man showed up on TV. No one said anything. There's like it's not that big of a deal. You know, just like how how society is. I lean more towards that where I'm like, I don't care. You know, like that that's my perspective.

SPEAKER_04 37:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

If it's not harming anybody, like, alright, okay.

SPEAKER_04 37:15

That still blind blows your mind when people swear on TV here. Oh, that was a bit different because See, that's where I think the line is, because like America freaks out if you see a a tit on TV.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

No.

SPEAKER_04 37:26

But like or like someone says fuck.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

Well, yeah, we would never ever say that on television. Okay. Anyway, that's my later on in this documentary.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

Augustus plays us a little song about nakiness. Would you like to Yes.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

I want to hear it.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

I swear Augustus is getting something out of this. This is where it gets weird for me. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

I have another point to say, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 38:30

Continue with your point, Brittany.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

I don't know how this plays into this at all. But in that video, interesting video, by the way, but in that video, they showed Greek replica, Greek artwork. Back in those days, they played in the Olympics. Men were in the Olympics fully naked.

SPEAKER_04 38:48

Oiled up.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Oiled up. Like they would scrape the oil off and sell it to young girls who wanted it seriously.

SPEAKER_04 38:54

But like Do you think anyone would pay for scraped off Augustus oil?

SPEAKER_02 38:57

No. But it just reminded me that like this is not a new thing. This has been around for thousands of years, and I think it's like I think it's just society. That's all I think.

SPEAKER_04 39:07

I mean I think Augustus is giving me weird vibes. More so than Steven. I think Steven's just an eccentric.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

Who wants to do what he w wants, but civil liberties and is like that's fine.

SPEAKER_04 39:18

Augustus, I feel like is a bit creepy, but again, he's not doing anything overtly like perverted.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

But are we saying now that intention matters?

SPEAKER_04 39:27

I mean intention definitely does matter. However, I would say effect also matters. And he's not harming anyone, he's not alarming anyone, he's not going out to sort of like show his penguin to someone.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Augustus is wearing a loincloth.

SPEAKER_04 39:41

Exactly. I mean, if anything, he's more covered than he's not doing anything wrong at all. No. He's just walking around wearing speedo. Like even if you assumed that like being nude in public wasn't okay, he's not he's not doing that.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

Does nude count showing your butt though? Genuinely I'm asking. Like, does that count because it?

SPEAKER_04 40:00

So a man can walk around like wearing a thong in public.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

No.

SPEAKER_04 40:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

But women sometimes wear bathing suits that just go up Up the crack. Yeah. So is that considered nudity?

SPEAKER_01 40:12

No. But if someone went out So mess the gender of the person. If someone went out with only a loincloth.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

But that's essentially what a bathing suit is. Like for some women. I'm not trying to disagree with you.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

No, it's not. There's no such thing. But if I mean I think society would see it different. If a society would. If a woman went out, let's say a group of a hen do and they're all wearing thongs with like, I don't know, a tutu or whatever, I don't know what hen people wear.

SPEAKER_04 40:43

Sparkly cowboy hats, I think.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

That or just going out with actually no pants on and just a loincloth is different.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

I don't know, everyone has a butt.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Everyone does have a butt.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

You see it every day, like I didn't know how passionate I'd be about this topic.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

I couldn't have seen this coming. Augustus says that he hasn't got a girlfriend, but if he goes out on a naked walk and people smile at him, that pleases him because someone is noticing him.

SPEAKER_04 41:09

It's very sad, but is it illegal? Should it be illegal?

SPEAKER_02 41:13

It's not illegal, no.

SPEAKER_04 41:15

Someone's name my bottom. As long as you're not like bending over and wiggling your butt at people, that would be where it crossed the line to like this is weird.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Let's see how you feel about the next bit. Oh dear. No, no. The thing that doesn't help his plea is that Steven doesn't have any boundaries when it comes to his naked rambling. There is footage from the documentary of him walking past a school at kicking out time and there are children everywhere. You can actually hear some of them screaming in the background. He gets really pissed off with the journalist when he starts suggesting that they should really change direction or walk somewhere else. Stephen actually feigns ignorance, being like, what are you on about? What are you talking about? Why would I change direction? He's ultimately arrested at this point in the documentary.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Should you do that? No.

SPEAKER_04 42:07

Should you is it a good idea to do that? No. Should it be illegal again? I don't think it should. Should he probably have been arrested in order to prevent a breach of the peace with someone coming and knocking him out? I can see why they arrested him. That has happened. Yeah. That doesn't surprise me. He's been beaten up a few times. Was he convicted? Like, was he charged with something when he was arrested in that situation?

SPEAKER_01 42:31

I can't remember.

SPEAKER_04 42:32

Right. I don't know. I wonder whether the police like arrested him to prevent a breach of the peace with someone coming and like knocking him the fuck out.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

I mean it genuinely seems like he has been arrested just for being naked.

SPEAKER_04 42:46

I don't because as far as I'm aware, it's not illegal to be naked in public.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

So he was arrested in Scotland on five occasions on charges of breach of the peace and public indecency for being naked in public. He was released on bail, then he was arrested again and detained for for breach of the peace again, released on bail. He was convicted at Dingwall Sheriff Court in respect of that offence and admonished. He was then released.

SPEAKER_04 43:13

I wonder if I don't know. Is admonished just the same as like a unconditional discharge? It's like you've been bad. Don't do it again.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Yeah, I think.

SPEAKER_04 43:20

But actually nothing's gonna happen to you.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Then he was arrested and charged with breach of the peace, which was committed while on bail. Then he was remanded in custody. On the same day that he was released, he was then rearrested and charged with breach of the peace again. Then he was remanded in custody, then he was convicted and sentenced to three months imprisonment again. He lodged an appeal which was dismissed.

SPEAKER_04 43:41

I feel bad for this guy. What was he doing to breach the pre breach the peace?

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Being naked, Chris?

SPEAKER_04 43:47

Just being naked. Oh, I feel bad for this guy.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

It is interesting that it isn't illegal to be naked in public, but you can be arrested on breach of the peace.

SPEAKER_04 43:59

But how was he breach of the peace?

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Well, this is exactly what Steven's saying. Ultimately, he has been he has been thrown in jail for this multiple times, and he's saying he's not doing anything wrong. This is the thing.

SPEAKER_04 44:12

I I agree with him personally.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

I do think walking in front of school when they're let out. Yeah, yeah. Change your route, go a different way.

SPEAKER_04 44:22

There's definitely better routes you could pick. However, walking through a city square, there's also going to be exactly like and he has a point in that kids are also people. Mm-hmm. It's not like he's making a point of wiggling his willy through the school fence or something like that. No, he's not. He's walking past. Yeah, he's just walking past. He's not walking back and you know to and fro.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

No, he's just getting from A to B. Yeah. He and the journalist have another conversation about the school later. Please may you resume your roles.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

I'm ready. Do you regret going past the school?

SPEAKER_03 44:58

No, no, no, of course not. No. It would be a contradiction if I did.

SPEAKER_02 45:01

You're making some sort of point about freedom.

SPEAKER_03 45:04

Yes, I'm saying it's good to be free.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

But what I'm saying is maybe you shouldn't be including children in that.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

Well, you can't help it. That's life. Why shouldn't children be involved in in life and the goings-on in life?

SPEAKER_02 45:16

I think at that point he's just being obnoxious.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Right, so this is where he loses me a bit. Not that he had me necessarily before. If he really felt like he was in the right here, he should be able to articulate that. He should be able to bring forward a fully formed thought about why exposing yourself to children on the street isn't harmful in this context if that's truly what you believe. I might even be able to buy it. But to pretend to not understand the question has made me feel like he may just be doing it to be contrary.

SPEAKER_04 45:47

I think two things can be the true at the same time. I think he can be doing it to be controversial and also make the point that it shouldn't matter where he's being naked, it's still a public space. He can be naked where he wants to be.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 46:01

Doesn't mean I necessarily agree with it, doesn't mean I necessarily walk naked in front of a school.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

I think And if we're the ones saying that children shouldn't see it, then we're the ones putting a sexual contrast. Exactly. Whereas he s he isn't. He says he isn't. So we're the pervert. That that's how I felt the whole time, like saying that.

SPEAKER_04 46:22

That was a really good point.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

I felt like it wasn't a fully established protest though after that point, just because he can't properly articulate himself.

SPEAKER_04 46:31

But that doesn't mean it should be wrong just because he's bad at articulating himself. You know? That doesn't mean what he's doing is wrong.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

I feel like he's just trying to gain notoriety. At this point, yes. But again.

SPEAKER_04 46:45

I feel like he's definitely trying to make a point.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

Yeah. But does it make it illegal?

SPEAKER_04 46:50

No. No. Okay. And maybe he got caught you know, everyone has a bad day. Maybe he was in that interview, he didn't make his point correctly. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 46:58

Yes, absolutely. He didn't.

SPEAKER_04 47:00

He definitely didn't. But again, does that make it illegal? No. Should it be illegal?

SPEAKER_03 47:04

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

When he finally reaches his mother's house, the tabloid press are there for them being reunited. In your next picture, here they are being reunited after seven years apart, posing for photos.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

Seven years?

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:18

She looks like she's having a whale of a time.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

She really does, but that's a that's an odd one.

SPEAKER_04 47:23

Would I hug my mum like that? Probably not.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

For the listeners, what they're seeing is a photo of Steven, a grown ass man, completely naked. Grown ass man.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Sitting on his mother's lap.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

In her living room. His very old frail mother's lap.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

And they're hugging.

SPEAKER_04 47:40

They do look like they're both having a great time. They're smiling. Do they happy?

SPEAKER_02 47:44

Maybe she's just so happy that she hasn't seen him in seven years, she doesn't care.

SPEAKER_04 47:48

Happy that she hasn't seen him.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

I don't know, like so happy.

SPEAKER_04 47:52

Relieved to see him after seven years of not seeing him.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

I think she looks uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

I can see that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:59

I think she looks really happy.

unknown 48:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Sh it could just be because the cameras.

SPEAKER_04 48:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Or it could be because a grown son's sitting on her naked.

SPEAKER_04 48:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

Oh yeah, but I mean like as in the cameras are there, she's trying to put on like a happy phone.

SPEAKER_04 48:15

I see. Again, it's weird. Should it be illegal? No, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

So what's interesting is Stephen and his mother have a conversation where as soon as the photographers leave, Stephen is quick to put his clothes back on. And she says, It must feel funny wearing clothes if you haven't worn them in so long. To which Stephen replies, No no mum. When I stop I do. So it's a public thing. And she says, Oh right, so as soon as you stop, you get dressed. And he goes, Well, yeah, straight away it's the first thing I do. God, I'd die otherwise, wouldn't I?

SPEAKER_02 48:45

Where did this conversation come from?

SPEAKER_01 48:47

So he as soon as the cameras leave, he puts his clothes on.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

So the cameras leave, so I'm assuming like all the journalists then are leaving. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 48:55

So it's like he didn't realise it was still mic'd up or what? No, he does, yeah. So he knew it was still being recorded.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

Yeah, yeah. Right. Okay. It it just slips for a minute, I think. And he admits.

SPEAKER_04 49:05

So he admits it well, again, it's clear that he's doing it to prove a point. Yeah. I don't think we're learning anything new from this. It's not like he's trying to say that it's he wants to walk around naked all the time, but he's saying that it should be legal for him if he wanted to, to walk around all the time.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 49:24

Like I don't think this is a gotcha moment. I don't think it invalidates his argument. Do you think it does?

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:31

So you think it definitely is about intention? Do you think because it's not his sincerely hold held belief that he should walk around naked all the time, that makes it wrong.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

Again, it doesn't make it illegal, but I think it invalidates his point a little bit that he wasn't naked in those photos or in his mum's living room because he wanted to be naked, because as soon as they left he put the clothes on, he wanted to be clothed. So he's almost invalidating his own point because he is forcing himself to be naked when he doesn't want to be, which isn't the freedom he's talking about.

SPEAKER_04 50:09

See, I disagree because I think if you're saying it would be fine if he did genuinely believe it, I think you're giving people different rights based on what they believe, which I think is is probably wrong.

SPEAKER_01 50:21

You should not based on what they believe, but based on the genuineness behind what they're saying they believe.

SPEAKER_04 50:28

Which is sounds like the same thing to me.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

Hmm. Because you have to really believe something, not just be pretending to believe it.

SPEAKER_04 50:38

Again, that just sounds like that you're giving people different rights based on what they believe. Well, one of how genuinely they're b how genuine their belief in that is.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Let's take, I think I think this is in the so the Equality Act 2010, one of your protected characteristics is religious freedom, right? But you have to, in order to not be discriminated against that religion, you have to genuinely believe in it doesn't even have to be a religion, it can just be a belief. It can be vegetarianism, it can be climate change. Cases have proven that in the past. But you have to have a genuine conviction over what you're believing in.

SPEAKER_04 51:15

Okay. But that's not what he's arguing. He's arguing that it should be under freedom of expression, right?

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Yes, absolutely, but I'm just saying for me, his pretendingness minimizes his entire case.

SPEAKER_04 51:28

Okay. And that's assuming that he doesn't have a fundamental belief that he should be naked all the time.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

No, it's that he is not getting naked when he wants to, which is what he is saying you should be able to do.

SPEAKER_04 51:41

So you're saying if he if he wanted to do it, it would be okay?

SPEAKER_01 51:45

Yes, because then he's not pretending that he wants to.

SPEAKER_04 51:49

But he's clearly making a point, whether he wanted to do it or not, whether it's his like sincerely hell hell belief or whatever. His point is that by being naked he's expressing himself. Should he be criminalised for that?

SPEAKER_03 52:02

I d I don't know. I'm not on one side.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

I'm not necessarily saying it therefore means he should be criminalized for.

SPEAKER_04 52:09

You're thinking it it undermines his point a bit. Or a lot. Yes. Or totally.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Because he's not practicing his own freedom he's preaching, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_04 52:18

That's fair enough. Yeah. It's a difficult one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 52:22

At the end of the day, I still can't get over the fact that if I walked into a shop and there was a naked man there with his penis out, I would be offended.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

That's fair.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

I don't know you're such a prude.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

I don't think that you can be a prude. No, like genuinely.

SPEAKER_04 52:38

What is offending you about like if he's not doing anything obnoxious, if he's not like intentionally like bending over in front of you and or like waggling it around, or like what what what about it offends you?

SPEAKER_01 52:50

I'm not sure I can articulate it.

SPEAKER_04 52:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

Mm-hmm. But I would call the police.

SPEAKER_04 52:56

What would you say to the police there's a naked man? Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

And they'd say, well, with his penis out buying cough medicine in boots. Please do something about it.

SPEAKER_04 53:06

Please solve this man's cough. Well, what what would you say to them if they said, Well, being naked's not illegal? What what's he doing that's offending you?

SPEAKER_01 53:14

I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_04 53:15

Because I didn't think being naked was illegal.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

Well, this is exactly Stephen's point.

SPEAKER_04 53:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:20

He's saying that he should never have been arrested like this. Because it's a- I really hope he won.

SPEAKER_04 53:25

Did he win? Are we gonna get there?

SPEAKER_01 53:27

We're gonna get there. Oh no, I'm just not gonna tell you. Yeah, we're gonna get there. See how you feel about it. Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 53:33

Do you feel bad for him in a way?

SPEAKER_01 53:35

I was gonna say as well though, that because he refused to dress, he would also refuse to dress while in prison. And that would mean that they would put him in um what's it called? Solitary confinement. Yes, and he spent a lot of the time that he was in prison in solitary confinement.

SPEAKER_04 53:49

Was that part of his appeal? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

We don't talk about it in this episode though, because I'm only talking about the freedom of expression. But yes. Spoiler alert, they didn't care about that either. What? Stephen though, believe it or not from what we've discussed, was extremely serious about his right to be naked. He was so serious, in fact, that he made applications to the European Court of Human Rights to say that the UK was interfering with his human right and they should be forced to allow him to roam naked as he pleases. Now importantly, Stephen made two applications to the Strasbourg Court. The first one was about his arrests in Scotland. He stated that his repeated arrest, prosecution, conviction and imprisonment for being naked in public and his treatment in detention violated his rights under Articles 3, 5 section 1, 7 section 1, 8, 9, and 10 of the Convention. I am going to focus specifically on the judgment's reply to the alleged violation of Article 10 of the Convention because this episode is about exactly that, the right to freedom of expression. We may talk about Goff again when we come to other human rights in the Convention. So the Strasbourg Court said that we think of freedom of expression as being through words, pictures, video or conduct intended to display an idea or information. Goff's decision to not wear clothes was a direct expression of his views on the human body and therefore his complaint did indeed fall within Article 10. They also said that they were satisfied that the nudity in this context was a freedom of expression and that his arrests could be seen as a form of repression of that expression and therefore there was an interference with Article 10. But an interference with the freedom of expression under Article 10 can be justified under Article ten section two if it is prescribed by law and is necessary to keep a happy society. My words I've paraphrased. Goff said it wasn't prescribed by law, but didn't expand on that point. The government said that it was. Ultimately, the Strasbourg court said that the rules were enough within the law and basic society's understanding that Goff could have reasonably foreseen the break of the law and the subsequent arrests, and therefore they were satisfied that the interference with Article ten, the right to freedom of expression, was justified legally within a democratic society. So they determined that there was no violation of Article ten, and they also decided that there weren't any violations on the rest either, and the case was dismissed.

SPEAKER_04 56:32

How do we feel so far? I feel bad for Goff because he's like, how is he meant to expand on it's not prescribed in law? If it's not prescribed in law that you're not allowed to be naked in public, there's no more you can add to that argument. Like it's not like you can say, well, you know, article this section two says doesn't say this. Because it doesn't, you know? I feel like that's harsh to say he doesn't expand on that point. If it doesn't say you can't be naked in law, what else are you meant to say?

SPEAKER_01 56:58

Yeah. Fair.

SPEAKER_04 56:59

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 56:59

Yeah, I suppose maybe they were feeling like he should have explained how it wasn't in the law. Maybe he should have maybe he should have found something somewhere that proved his point that it should be allowed in legislation. I don't know. I don't know what they wanted from an explanation.

SPEAKER_04 57:15

I don't know. I think as he's being asked to prove a negative there.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

Maybe he is, yes.

SPEAKER_04 57:19

I can kind of see their point in that you can you can maybe foresee that being naked in public is perhaps provocative and might not be conducive to people looking favourably on it. I'm kinda sad that he didn't he didn't win.

SPEAKER_01 57:33

So we get to the second one. When he was in England, Stephen received, along with public order offences, many, many ASBOs. And in 2013 he was charged and tried for breaching that ASBO. Do we know what an ASBO is, by the way?

SPEAKER_04 57:48

No.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

So it is an antisocial behaviour order. So I'm old enough to remember the introduction of the ASBO. They were introduced through the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. It was used against harassment, alarm or distress caused specifically to people outside of the perpetrator's own home. It was used as a deterrent against, well, antisocial behaviour. A local authority or chief of police could apply for an ASBO and a magistrate's court could then make the order. This order would then prohibit the defendant from doing anything described within it, and if they broke it, that would be a criminal offence. There were two levels that came with that offence, and it would be determined on a case by case basis. If it were a first offence or for more minor things, it would be seen in the magistrate's court with a sentence not exceeding six months. If it went to Crown Court, however, for more serious antisocial behaviour or repeat offenders, you could be looking for up to five years. Don't ask me about them, I haven't looked it up. So back to Stephen and his ASBOs. He'd been charged with breaching his ASBO, so it's going to the Crown Court because he's a repeat offender. But he would only appear in court for his trial if he was allowed to appear naked. He was refused this allowance and so he did not appear in court throughout the trial. Ultimately, he was convicted of breaching his ASBO and was sentenced to 48 weeks in prison. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02 59:28

Do you think he should have been allowed? I think he should have been allowed, but fine. They say no, suck it up and put some clothes on. Like you're being ordered to go to court. No, that's Devise's entire point. He couldn't I know, but I think at that point, if you weigh the risks, just suck it up. You could say that about his entire thing though.

SPEAKER_04 59:48

No, I think there's a difference because you're like, because you've been ordered to abide court. So that I agree by his argument he shouldn't have been ordered to abide court. But at the point that he has, you've got to suck it up. Yeah. Like his whole point is like there's no law against this, why am I being arrested for this? At that point, there is a law against it because the courts said you shouldn't. If you disagree with the court's decision, you should appeal it, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

Mm-hmm. If you can walk down the street naked, why can't you go to court naked?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

Oh, yeah, he's saying you should be able to. You should be able to do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:22

That's when it becomes like. Does that make sense? I don't think the court was right. No, okay. No, I don't think they were right. Yeah, we needed, yes, okay, I understand. And also the fact that he's breaching the antisocial behaviour. Or once you've got the asbow, like and you've just stopped wandering around naked because it's antisocial, at that point you should stop wandering around naked.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

Really? Uh this feels contradictory to me. Really? Once you've been arrested a million times with breach of the peace and you're not stopping, what's the difference?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:50

I think they're using breach of the peace incorrectly.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:53

I think that's that's But you're okay with an asbo.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:56

Yeah, because that like you'd the only way you'd get an asbow is if people were complaining, it was upsetting people, as you say.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:02

But that's what happened with the breach of the peace as well. Is it? And people were complaining.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:06

But you couldn't know people were gonna complain because you're just wandering around expressing yourself, as he says, wandering around naked.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

Isn't it exactly the same with the Asbo?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:15

I don't think so, because at that point you've been told this is upsetting people, don't do it again. You can't know that wandering around in public maybe this is a weird distinction to draw, but I'm sure the viewers will agree with me.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

Okay. Okay. Stephen argued that because he wasn't allowed to appear in court, this conviction was therefore unsafe, and he appealed. He said that the court had erred in not allowing him to attend his trial due to him not wearing clothes. He said it wasn't proven that his nakedness would interfere with the course of the trial, and argued that the judge should have considered other options such as screens to enable him to appear naked in court. Screens? What do you think?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:54

Okay, if he's appealing the decision to not let him be naked, then fine. If he's saying that the fact that he wasn't allowed to appear influenced his trial, then I disagree with that, because he had the opportunity to arrive clothed. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

Well, yes, and that's what the court says. So he claimed that the judge had failed to give enough weight to his right to a fair trial, Article six of the European Convention on Human Rights, and his right to manifest his belief under Article 9. This appeal was dismissed. The court stated that Stephen could have attended the trial if he had worn clothes, exactly like you said, and that his absence was a direct result of his own refusal to dress. It also said that allowing him to appear naked would have been a further breach of the ASPO, and his defence was still before the jury from his police interview. All things considered, the conviction was not deemed unsafe. We're in agreement. This is where we get our second application to the European Court of Human Rights. This time, among many other things, we're sticking with Article ten. Stephen is claiming that the ASBOS and detention is again a breach of his human rights, under Article 10. He also argued that the ASBO was unnecessary and disproportionate, and that the terms of the Asbols were so vague, therefore they were impossible to enforce.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:09

Hard to argue for or against that without knowing the terms of the Asbow, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

Without knowing the exact words.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:14

Well, the government said, boo-hoo, fuck you, we disagree and you smell like pee, and the Strasbourg court agreed and told Stephen to shove it. They basically said what they had said the last time, yes, this is a breach of freedom of expression, and therefore a breach of your human right under Article 10. But this can be justified because it is the law in a fair and democratic society. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:36

But it's not the law. There's no law saying you can't be naked in public. Ugh, I'm annoyed.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

In 2016, Stephen Goff announced his retirement from public nudity to care for his aging mother. Although in an interview with the independent, he said he'll still be doing a bit of sunbathing here and there. And we'll finish on a quote from the naked rambler for his cause. It's freedom to act according to what's appropriate or right or whatever. And that was the tale of a fight for freedom or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:12

I like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:13

That was that was a good one. That was I like that one a lot.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:16

Yeah, he's definitely not the most articulate person, is he?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:19

That that was that was good. We had some good debates.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:21

Yeah, I like that. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

I love the debate. I I think I thought you would be on my side. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:28

We're team saggy bollocks.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:30

God, don't say that again. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:34

I guess I'm just like it's not harming anyone, is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:36

It's not. I do not want to see penises in Tesco.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:40

But that's your problem. It's not causing you harm seeing a penis. It might be you'll be like, oh, I don't like penis.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:48

Turn turn away.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:49

Yeah. But that's that's how they get you. You turn away and then you don't see them coming.

unknown 1:04:53

Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:54

But you know, it's just like I think it goes back to like the person I was talking about work, like with kids. It doesn't have to be kids, it can be naked people, it can be literally anything. You can't control the public. And then like I think there's obviously there's some things that people can control. Oh, yes. If lines are being crossed, then yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

I think not wearing clothes is crossing a line.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:16

Who's having a wank in public?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:18

No, that's a different story. Totally differently sexualizing.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:23

Is that Jacoba's a fascist?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:26

Am I the am I the weird one? Am I the one adding a sexual component to it that doesn't need to be there?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:33

Is it the fact that it's a guy, if it was a girl walking around in public?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

Oh, that's a good question. I think women should be allowed to do what they want.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:43

There we go. Jacob's a hypocrite.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:46

And on that note, let's tune in actually.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:50

For a real good tale.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:53

Oh my god. Send in your thoughts about naked people. Yes, please do.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:57

So my sources are Stephen's YouTube channel, Naked Life, and the BBC documentary on there. The Guardian, The Independent, The European Convention on Human Rights, Judgments for the European Court of Human Rights Cases, Gough Against the United Kingdom, Strasbourg 2014 and 2018. Full citations in the show notes and information from Crown Against Gough 2015, EWCA, the Law Society of Scotland. Thank you. Tune it in next week for a real good tale.