SPEAKER_03 0:11

Welcome to Red Herrings. I'm Jacoa, Master's student in law and human rights, host of True Crime Club Newcastle, and creator of True Crime Forum Newcastle.

SPEAKER_04 0:21

Hi, I'm Brittany. I have two degrees in history and 15 years experience in genealogy. We're the red herrings.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Well, well, well. What do we have here? Two red herrings and the catch of the day. Don't forget about me.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

Hi, Chris! We're the red herrings.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

And Chris.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

Have you seen this photo? No.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

No, I haven't.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

This photograph is now recognized across America, but for decades almost nobody knew the story of Mary Kay Hesse.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 0:57

The town of Wahoo, Nebraska was settling into the familiar rhythm of another early spring night.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

Dishes were being cleared from kitchen tables, porch lights flickered on outside of houses, and pickup trucks rolled slowly down residential streets.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

In a town where everybody knew one another, where parents rarely locked their doors and children played in neighborhoods without fear, there was comfort in routine.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

Okay, this sounds like one of those stories that's gonna end in a brutal murder and no one ever leaves their door unlocked ever again.

SPEAKER_04 1:35

Oh, what gave it away?

SPEAKER_03 1:37

The docile tones of pleasantness.

SPEAKER_04 1:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:41

Then, sometime between sunset and midnight, that sense of safety vanished forever. Her school books and purse would lie abandoned along the lonely country road. Frozen footprints pressed into the Nebraska mud would preserve the final moments moments she endured while running for her life. Oh my god. And on March twenty fifth, nineteen sixty-nine, she never came home. By dawn, seventeen-year-old Mary Kay Hesse would be dead in a roadside ditch a few miles outside town, stabbed over and over again after what investigators believed had been a desperate attempt to escape. Oh, awful.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

So it was a few miles outside town. What was she what was she doing out there? Do we know?

SPEAKER_04 2:27

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

I don't know if we know. I'm imagining like a town in the middle of nowhere. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:33

Yeah. We have a map in a few minutes. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

She wasn't walking to school or anything. Okay. Oh, odd.

SPEAKER_04 2:39

Born on December 9th, 1951, in North Bend, Nebraska, Mary Kay was the daughter of Julius and Dorothy Hesse. Family members would later describe her as shy and innocent, a girl who desperately wanted acceptance, but often struggled socially. You don't have a map, just a Google map screenshot. That is the state of Nebraska, and there's a pin on the far right side that is where Wahoo is.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Okay, so it's like near is that the Capitol?

SPEAKER_04 3:11

Lincoln's the Capitol, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Okay, so it's so it's just outside the Capitol.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

Is Nebras Nebraska quite like stock?

SPEAKER_04 3:19

Yeah. Flat, rural farms. There's some cities. Never been. Sorry if I misportrayed that for anyone who's from Nebraska.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

I'm just looking at the map and I'm just seeing that it's not like full of place names. No. There's a lot of empty barren land there. That's so interesting.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

So that's just America though. Isn't it? They say America's huge, but like 90% of it you wouldn't want to go to.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

Agreed. Disneyland, right? That's the only reason to go to America. Pretty much. Disneyland or Disneylor? Which one? Which one would you go to? I don't know the difference. Are there two? Yeah. One's in Paris. No. Well, that's a different one. That's a third one. The Orlando one I'm thinking of.

SPEAKER_04 3:57

Ah, that's Disney World.

SPEAKER_03 3:58

With Universal Studios.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Disneyland. No, Disneyland has Universal Studios. That's in California. Or is it Disney World that has Universal?

SPEAKER_00 4:06

If you're a Disney adult, write into us at redherringspod at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

I should know. I've been. I've been many times. I've been too. It's only Orlando and Universal Studios were there. So whatever. Wait, you were there?

SPEAKER_04 4:18

You were in Orlando?

SPEAKER_03 4:19

Yeah. I never knew that. I've been six times. Wait, so Parrot. I knew you're a sword. Florida. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

And you've never told me this.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

We were there when one of the biggest ever tornado nights happened, and like everything around was just like flattened. There were 14 tornadoes that night. Wow. I slept through the whole thing. I was eight or something. When was this? Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Well you're not going to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

Late 2000s, I guess. Not if you were eight.

SPEAKER_04 4:51

Not if you were eight.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

Oh yeah, you're right. Early 2000s. There we go. Yeah, early 2000s. Yeah, we have like home video footage of like driving and just everything's like flat.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Wow, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 5:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Was this Hurricane Katrina?

SPEAKER_04 5:08

No. No, that was 2005. So like early 2000s. 2007, 2000s. Okay. 2005. Uh New Orleans, Louisiana. Yeah, it wasn't. Or Baton Rouge.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Summer Louisiana. Anyway. Anyway, God, sorry. Oh no, tonight's gonna be so long if we carry on like a story.

SPEAKER_04 5:26

Alright, let's go. Chop chop. As a junior at Wahoo High School, she participated in the Pep Club.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

What the fuck? Don't ask me.

SPEAKER_04 5:34

You guys where they get really pepped up. Oh, I think I want to say it's maybe like cheerleaders. Oh, makes sense. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

I don't know. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 5:42

She enjoyed baton twirling and track.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

I was gonna say baton twirling's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 5:46

Right. Don't do it in England, do they?

SPEAKER_00 5:49

No.

SPEAKER_04 5:49

She enjoyed baton twirling and track and worried about the same things many teenage girls did. Clothes, friendships, and weather boys noticed her. Right. And Mary Kay wanted all of it. You have two photos of Mary Kay.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

I mean that's a rough haircut.

SPEAKER_04 6:08

It actually looks like a wig. It's kind of It does, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Like balanced on top of her head.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

Yes. Yeah. Each morning before school, classmates would help her put on makeup and change into different clothes so she could better fit in before changing back at the end of the day. Does that mean she had strict parents? I was gonna say, right. One of the clearest glimpses into her world came from a letter she wrote shortly before her death. The Sadie Hawkins dance was approaching at school, an event where girls traditionally invited boys to attend with them. Mary Kay had apparently struggled to find a date, so she wrote to her cousin Jerry asking him to go with her. Aww. If we come over to get you on Friday the twenty eighth or Saturday the twenty-ninth, she wrote, Will you go to the Sadie Hawkins dance with me? You have a picture of that letter. Aww. Oh, written with typewriter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

And this was definitely Nebraska, not Alabama.

SPEAKER_04 7:07

It wasn't that kind of date, Christopher. It was just like, go with me, you know, come with me to the stand. It's sweet. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

It is sweet, right? Our cousin didn't kill her, right?

SPEAKER_04 7:18

No. No, no. She explained he could wear sportswear because it was not formal. She told him not to bring money because the girls were expected to pay. The letter was dated March 18th, 1969, exactly one week before she died.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 7:36

Investigators and family members would come to believe that Mary Kay's desire to fit in may have contributed to the choices she made on the day she disappeared. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

What could that mean?

SPEAKER_04 7:48

Tuesday, March 25th, began like any other school day. Mary Kay attended classes and later participated in track practice after school. At some point after practice, Mary Kay stopped at the Wigwam Cafe in downtown Wahoo for a hot chocolate.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

You told me I wasn't allowed to call things wigwams.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

No, I never said that. I said what you were calling a teepee. No, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

See, she doesn't even know the difference, listeners. She's gas slides for me about Native American tents.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

What was a teepee, or what is a teepee, you were calling a wigwam. They're two vastly different things. So what's the difference? So a teepee is more triangular, right? It's like goes straight up and it's quite small compared to a wigwam, which is more large, rectangular, I believe. Like rectangular, large building.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 8:37

Two very different things.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Sound very similar to me.

SPEAKER_04 8:39

Well, you're wrong.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

So the thing depicted on that sign you're telling me is not a wiggle.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Did you tell you to look at the pictures yet? Yeah, she didn't.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Oh my god. Every time, listeners. They put it all in one document and then berate me for going on to the next one. I tell you.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

I tell you which ones. If you look at your next two photos, the first one is a sign of the wigwam cafe at the time. And then you have the modern day wigwam cafe sign because it's no longer open.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

And explain to me. Why have they written Wigwam Cafe on a picture of a teepee?

SPEAKER_04 9:11

I don't know. Now I'm doubting myself.

SPEAKER_03 9:16

I think I know my buildings, though.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

I'm intrigued by their sign. Cafe, chicken dinner, and satin ice cream.

SPEAKER_03 9:23

Winner winner chicken dinner.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

True.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

Satin ice cream's like Mr. Whippy, right? It's not like normal ice, it's like smoothies. Oh, I've never even heard of that turdline.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

One that's been curled out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:33

The turd line.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah, Jobby.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Mr. Whippie. Famously invented by Margaret Thatcher.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Oh, there you go.

SPEAKER_04 9:41

Ah. So a teepee is a traditional cone-shaped tent originally used by the indigenous peoples of the Great Plains of North America. Okay. A wigwam is a traditional semi-permanent domed dwelling used by various indigenous peoples of North America, particularly in the northeastern woodlands.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

Like an igloo for the hot country.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Basically.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

This is a wigwam.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Oh, okay. So it was like mud hut.

SPEAKER_04 10:12

Oh. And that's a teepee. So yes, they've put the word wigwam on a teepee.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

And was this why Mary was killed?

SPEAKER_04 10:21

No. Anyway, it's gonna be a long night. Yeah. Your face already. The wigwam was a local gathering spot familiar to students and townspeople. It was one of those places where conversations overlapped constantly and everybody noticed each other. Cute. Like true crime club. After leaving the cafe, Mary Kay began walking home. At around 5 p.m., witnesses saw her near the intersection of 12th and Linden Streets, only a few blocks from her house.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 10:55

It would be the last confirmed sighting of her alive.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 10:59

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

So how did she get to two miles outside of town without anyone noticing?

SPEAKER_04 11:04

Well, we're gonna get into it in a few minutes, but there was some eyewitness accounts.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

So it wasn't the last time she was seen.

SPEAKER_04 11:09

No, no, no. So no one saw her after that point, but something happens in that moment, which we'll get to.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 11:15

According to witnesses, Mary Kay was seen getting into a car occupied by two men. Oh, that was on this interchange. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Right.

SPEAKER_04 11:25

The car described was reportedly a white and blue 1956 Chevy. Your next photo.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

I mean, that is a badass car. It really is so cool. I'd get into that car. So why did she get into this car, do we think? Do we have theories?

SPEAKER_03 11:39

We don't know if she really did. It's just an eyewitness testimony. I don't believe it. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

You think it could be bullshit? Yeah. Why would someone make that up?

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Not make it up, but what if it wasn't her? Right. What if the car was didn't look like that? What if they saw it on a different day? What if it's an eyewitness? You can't like, I just don't hold a candle to their words.

SPEAKER_04 12:01

As evening settled over Wahoo, Mary Kay failed to return home. At first there was confusion more than panic. Teenagers occasionally lingered after school or visited friends, but as the evening got darker, concerned turned to fear. Her parents reported her missing around 7 PM. The response from the community was immediate. Police officers, sheriff's deputies, church groups, Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, classmates, neighbors, and volunteers searched roads, fields, and neighborhoods throughout the night. Oh wow, a huge search. Immediately. Immediately.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

I always think it's incredible. Like we've done cases before where they managed to muster like a thousand people. That was like the one of the first cases we did. What were they called? The the guy that got in the city. Yes, the Wellers managed to get a thousand people to search for this guy within like a couple hours. Yeah. I don't think you can manage this that now, you know?

SPEAKER_04 12:57

Yeah, it's crazy. Crazy. Cars cruised slowly through town, flashlights swept ditches and fence lines. People called her name into the darkness. Years later, Saunders County attorney Jennifer Yoakum would describe Mary Kay's murder as the moment the community lost its innocence. During those first few hours, nobody knew exactly what had happened, and there was still hope she might be found alive. As hours passed with no sign of Mary Kay, the search stretched farther outside town. Then, close to midnight, a farmer driving it along a rural road southeast of Wahoo noticed something unusual near the ditch. School books lay near the roadside. Later accounts differed on whether they had been scattered across the road or left in a neat pile. Some reports also stated that Mary Kay's purse was recovered near the scene. The location was isolated, about four miles outside town. Ooh, four miles is a long way.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Four miles. You said it was two miles.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

I think she said a couple and then a few, maybe.

SPEAKER_04 14:07

Don't get so technical.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

I would say a couple was two.

SPEAKER_04 14:10

Oh, you're one of those. I mean it is. It is. Yeah, it is, but like until I tell you a specific number, I don't believe a word she says. Yeah. Until you have a number.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

Exactly. You should know this, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Sorry, when I assume I make an ass out of myself.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Yeah, you do. No, it's an ass out of me and you. Ass. Me, right? Yeah. I think you just got me on the No, because you said an ass out of myself.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Yes, I know. I know. Which was wrong.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

You're wrong.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:44

A minute. Oh, but you were making a joke by getting it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Yeah, I know. It's another layer of humor. I understand that it might be a too advanced.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

Just too advanced for me, yes.

SPEAKER_04 14:55

The discovery instantly alarmed the farmer, and when he checked the books, he found Mary Kay's name inside them. He contacted authorities and police rushed to the scene. When I was writing this, I was like, okay, how did he contact authorities? I'm thinking we don't have phones in this period.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Like Do we not?

SPEAKER_04 15:14

Not cell phones. It's 1969, you idiot.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

I was like he rushed back to his house.

SPEAKER_04 15:21

No, I think what actually happened is he was on his way into town and ran into like a patrol car. I see, because everyone was searching. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he was like, over here, over here. Nearby, in a ditch beside the road, they discovered her body. She lay fully clothed. Her white gloves were stained with blood, and her body had multiple stab wounds to the chest and abdomen.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Interesting that she's fully clothed, because the first thing I thought when you said she was getting into a random man's car was yeah, he's just kinda like yoinker and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:53

Yeah. Later autopsy findings would determine she had been stabbed 14 times.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

Oh my god, that's so many and so angry.

SPEAKER_04 16:02

Mm-hmm. Your first photo, just the first one, Christopher, is a photo of the crime scene.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

So that's a big guy taking the photo.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

Probably the one taking the photo.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

Probably a detective. Oh. Yeah. Or a crime scene of forensic photographer. They exist, right? Not sure at the time, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

I feel like every time we do a case that's not in the last ten years, we assume they lived in the Stone Age.

SPEAKER_04 16:26

Probably did. Probably did.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

How did they take the photo?

SPEAKER_04 16:31

Imagination. Authorities found no definitive evidence of sexual assault. Yeah, but that doesn't mean anything. No.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

That's really bad.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

Well she was dead. It's just no evidence, but lack of evidence doesn't suggest nothing happened or whatever the saying is. Whatever. Yeah. I can't think of what it is. The lack of evidence isn't evidence something. Anyway, I believe you.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

It's very hot today, listeners.

SPEAKER_04 17:06

Oh my god, it's so hot. There were signs she had desperately tried to escape.

unknown 17:12

Oh jeez.

SPEAKER_04 17:13

Her shoes were found in the road. Footprints preserved in the frozen mud appeared to show someone running.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

What wait, her shoes came off.

SPEAKER_04 17:21

Uh yeah. As she's running. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

Wow, running for a life.

SPEAKER_04 17:25

Investigators believed Mary Kay had fled from a vehicle and sprinted down the road while being chased. There's a photo of a f footprint.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

I don't actually think that could be a man's footprint.

SPEAKER_04 17:37

That's not hers.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

She had very big feet.

SPEAKER_04 17:39

I've put this in the wrong place. There's no scale. How would you know? No, I do think this we'll get to it, but there's other footprints, and this is the other person's footprints. Anyway, that's a photo of a footprint at the scene. At the scene.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

And do we know if she was stabbed while she was running away? Like there was a stab wound in the back or what?

SPEAKER_04 17:56

Or was she like chest and abdomen?

SPEAKER_03 17:59

I think she was like got it and then stabbed. She was grabbed and then grabbed and stabbed. So was there like her footprints running and then a big person's footprints running after her? Damn. And then he's caught up with her and stabbed her. Oh dear. Why would you stab her when you caught her? Why would you not just pick her up and put her back in the car? It's weird.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Well, yeah, I'm not I'm missing like I don't understand why they picked her up and then let her out the car.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Not let her, she could have escaped. I think she got out.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Right, okay. I don't think they let her. But then why why did they let yeah, like you say, why don't they not just grab her?

SPEAKER_03 18:34

So he must have been he must have had the knife on him whilst in the car at all times, because if she's made a runner, then he's made a runner with the knife in his hand. He hasn't like scrambled to grab a knife. So he's probably holding her in the back of the car, maybe with like a knife to her throat, threatening her. And then something happens either in her mind or she sees an opportunity, she runs out and legs it, and he's following her with the knife in his hand. So maybe in that case, maybe that's why he didn't grab her, maybe it was just in a moment of panic. I guess. I guess, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Maybe she's making a lot of noise or something.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:12

And sorry, question. Were the books found at this crime scene? Yes. Okay. Wait.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

See, that is again confusing me, because if I'm running from serial killers, I'm not grabbing my.

SPEAKER_04 19:23

Oh no, I think because she got in the car right after school.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

Yes. So she Imagine she's got a backpack on. Uh-huh. So then she's running and it grabs the backpack. And then they go flying. Goes flying. You know, like she comes out of the backpack.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

But if you're getting in the car willingly, you're not going to get in with your backpack on the case.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

But she was coming right after school. It was her stuff. So maybe she's going to put her back. No. May have just been on her back, or you don't even know what kind of thing. You would just hold it. Could have been like a holding maybe. Could have been around her side. Yeah. He's grabbed it as she's running, it's come off torn, everything's flown out of the bag. And then he's had to keep running together.

SPEAKER_04 20:05

At first, the strides appeared long and far apart, as though she was running as fast as she could. Then signs of struggle emerged near a pool of blood close to where her body was discovered. It was later believed she had also been struck in the jaw before the stabbing began.

SPEAKER_03 20:23

Ooh, weird. Maybe in a way to shut her up. Yeah. How are you punching someone and then tackling them?

SPEAKER_04 20:33

Maybe it was just like I I don't know, just in in the moment. Which I I don't know. Or maybe like taking her to the ground where she cracks it.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

In the struggle or something, and then she's on the ground and he's stabbing her, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

I like that we're assuming it's a man, probably a man.

SPEAKER_04 20:50

Well however no murder weapon was found, and investigators believe the number of stab wounds suggested intense personal violence. The scene was photographed carefully. Mary Kay's belongings were collected and her body was transported for autopsy. But even in those early hours, there were signs the case might become deeply complicated. The crime scene sat exposed outdoors and numerous agencies became involved. DNA testing did not yet exist and evidence handling practices were very inconsistent. But Mary Kay's clothing was even sent to the FBI for examination under the attention of J. Edgar Hoover, though forensic technology at the time remained extremely limited. And so authorities often relied heavily on witness statements and polygraphs. Do they still have that clothing? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

We're gonna see pictures of it later. Ooh, okay. So they could maybe test and do a bit of genealogy if there's any cool perpetrator S DNA on there.

SPEAKER_04 21:58

Mm-hmm. The code bay. And yet, despite those limitations, many believed the killer would be caught quickly. But after all, how could someone commit such a savage murder in a small town without somebody knowing something? Totally. Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:17

Within 24 hours of her death, the Wahoo Police Department reportedly received more than 400 phone calls from people offering tips, sightings, and theories. In the days following her murder, fear settled over Wahoo.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Yeah, because you know you've got some scallywag crazy person running around.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Yeah, you're not gonna send your daughter to school on her own after that, are you?

SPEAKER_03 22:40

No. I mean, it's still it could be an outsider that was just coming through, to be fair.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Yeah, but who's to say they're not gonna come through again, you know?

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Law enforcement question Sorry, question. Would you not send your kids to school in that situation?

SPEAKER_00 22:55

I would I wouldn't send them to school on their own, like it sounds like she was. I'd probably just drive them to school, drop more, no.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

And pick them up. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

I mean for what ten minutes out of your day to make sure your daughter doesn't get stabbed to death. Yeah. Yeah. Probably go for it.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

Mm-hmm. Yeah, if there was a dog knapper, I would certainly not let Moose go to school by herself. For sure.

SPEAKER_04 23:14

Yeah. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

Moose is a dog. In case we need to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_04 23:18

Not my child. Or a moose, yes. Yes. Law enforcement question hun questioned hundreds of people across the town and surrounding communities. According to reports from the era, nearly every male student connected to nearby schools was polygraphed in what authorities hoped would become the breakthrough.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

That's crazy. Can you imagine that now? Giving every student in the school a lie detector test.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

I can. I can imagine it. Although it wouldn't be a lie detector test these days, it would be a DNA swab.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

I guess. Exactly. But I I I think you really you think everyone would give a DNA swab?

SPEAKER_03 23:56

I think if they were made to. Well, I think you can't make someone. I don't think you could make them, but there would definitely be a call for volunteers, and then in a small place like that, everyone would be pre-pressured into it.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

And then yeah, which is bad, really.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

And then you're looking at the people that don't and you're getting warrants for them. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:12

I think that did happen in a case in America and they got they got hundreds of DNA swabs from this like local, this small localized area.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

That's hilarious. Because I'm assuming they wouldn't even bother testing the DNA kits. Because it's quite it's not cheap to test DNA, right? Right. So then you just go and off. You wouldn't even bother looking at them, you'd probably just go off to people that said no. Process of elimination in it.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

Imagine they're literally just turning up with like a box of cotton swabs and just being like, yeah, this is definitely going to the DNA lab.

SPEAKER_04 24:45

Leads were chased across the country, including, but not limited to Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Texas, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, North Carolina, Washington, California, New York, New Jersey, Wyoming, and Arizona. Oh my god, this investigation is huge. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

I mean, that's literally like all four corners of the country.

SPEAKER_04 25:10

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, what he said. Mm-hmm. It's all right.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

I'm just guessing because I have no idea where any of those states are.

SPEAKER_04 25:15

See, we've got the Midwest, we've got the South, we've got the Carolinas, we've got the Pacific Northwest, we've got California, New York, New Jersey. There we go. And no nothing came out. Nothing.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 25:30

We have questioned either here or in other cities, a total of six hundred and eighty-five persons, county attorney Robert Sullivan told reporters.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Wow. That's a big investigation.

SPEAKER_04 25:42

But we are no closer to a solution today than we were when we found the body alongside that road. Oh, geez.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Uh what about these people made them get interviewed? Was it just random? 400 tips in one day, right? Right. Within yeah, 24 hours.

SPEAKER_03 26:00

Not half as much as Bonnie Blue.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

There you go.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

Great channel 4 documentary. Did you watch it?

SPEAKER_00 26:06

No, I didn't.

SPEAKER_04 26:07

We haven't even watched The Crash yet. It's brilliant entertainment.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

You need to watch the Christopher.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Sorry, yeah, we'll get next to it.

SPEAKER_04 26:13

Watch it tomorrow night. We'll have a nice uh date night, murder mystery, uh, murder documentary date night.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Okay. Sounds good.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

Do that. Witnesses repeated the account of seeing Mary Kay enter a car with two men near her home earlier that evening. Who were these wit witnesses? Are they credible? I think just people from the town who were just walking by and and recognized her and saw her getting in. How close were they? I don't know. I didn't interview them myself. Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Jacob wants to be a defense barrister.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

Suspicious.

SPEAKER_04 26:45

And so attention soon turned toward identifying the vehicle and its occupants. Investigators learned that a man named Joseph Ambrose drove a white and blue 1956 Chevy. At twenty-two years old, Ambrose already had a criminal history. Oh. In 1965, at just 18, Ambrose had been sentenced to prison for forging bad checks.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 27:12

He later escaped custody alongside another inmate before eventually being captured in California.

SPEAKER_03 27:18

Okay, well he is a wrong and then.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yeah, but it's not like violent crime, it's forging checks. Like, but then once they start escaping the slippery slope, yeah, escape is adds a level, doesn't it, to criminal behaviour.

SPEAKER_04 27:32

After serving time, he moved to Wahoo, where he worked at a slaughterhouse while living under parole supervision.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

That's a red flag.

SPEAKER_03 27:41

I've always said, look at how much meat is on the supermarkets and how much is consumed and how many animals must be slaughtered. No one ever admits to working in a slaughterhouse. I don't know anyone who people are saying they're posties and they're actually working slaughterhouse. Yeah.

unknown 28:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:01

You can't go to a true crime club or I don't know, uh friends meet up and be like, oh yeah, I've just come in from the slaughterhouse.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

No, you'd say you're a butcher though, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

But uh what I'm thinking is there doesn't is is there a lot of human interaction needed at a slaughterhouse nowadays? It's just put the cow on a conveyor belt, is it not?

SPEAKER_04 28:19

I don't know, I don't know. There's a lot, there's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

I sh we should ask Emily if she works at an abattoir for well, it's work experience anyway. You have to do it to become a vet, you have to go and see all the cowies be killed.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

And there has to be a registered vet on site at all times. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Just in case an animal dies.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

It's the same with dog racing. Oh, yeah. There has to be a vet on at all times. I once I can't remember what I was doing. It was years ago, and I said to this guy, I was working for him in some capacity on a one-off day, and I said, Oh, what are you doing later? And he went, Oh, I'm I'm a vet, so I'm going to the Greyhound Stadium. And I was like, Whoa. And I said, Do you see a lot of really bad stuff? And he said, Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:01

Oof. Yay.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

Don't support the sport guys.

SPEAKER_04 29:05

Didn't you really know that was like a thing to be honest?

SPEAKER_00 29:07

Is that not a thing in the States? Do you have a horse racing there?

SPEAKER_04 29:10

Yeah, in the south, maybe. Not where I'm from.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

What do they do where you're from, Brittany? What's the culture?

SPEAKER_04 29:19

Go in the city. Uh City Hicks. Go in the city. And uh we have the Rocky Steps. Go to the Art Museum.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

I'm sure you've got horse racing.

SPEAKER_04 29:28

No, you know what we do? We go down the shore. Go down the shore, we go to the Jersey Shore. Okay. Like an hour and a half, two hour drive. It's a day trip. Okay. Oh, yeah, it's lots of fun. You burn. It's great. Wild.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

And there's no lassoing.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

No, Christopher. That happens in Texas. Thank you. Sorry. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 29:47

With the boots and the hats and the two hours the opposite direction from the Jersey Shore, you've got Amish country. Ooh. So you can see some horse and buggies. That's cool. That's where my.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

I bet they race their horses though, do they not? I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 30:03

Right. Let's go. Witnesses also placed him around Mary Kay before the murder and both frequented the wigwam cafe.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

Wait, they placed him they placed him around Mary Kay.

SPEAKER_04 30:15

Like just like they were known to be like in the same social circles.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 30:20

How old's this guy?

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Right? He's 20 yards.

SPEAKER_03 30:24

She's 15? He's hanging out with a teen. He's hanging out still. He's hanging out with high schoolers at the wigwam? Or is he hanging out with his own people at the wigwam? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

A criminal guy who works at a slaughterhouse hanging out with a load of Underage girls.

SPEAKER_04 30:41

Well maybe not necessarily girls specifically, high schoolers.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

There's a rabbit off. It's a bit weird.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

Authorities believed he knew her well enough that she may have trusted him to get into the vehicle willingly. Ambrose denied involvement from the start.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

Of course he would. I disagree with that just based on what we know about Mary Kate and what we know about him because she's quiet, she can't even find a date for the dance. She does track and I was gonna say baton, yeah. She's not getting into the car with the local bad lad, is she?

SPEAKER_00 31:19

I don't think she is, no. Unless they were like proper friends, but I don't think so. No, they don't be in that vibe. I think she might have been hanging out with their group to like try and fit in.

SPEAKER_04 31:28

Oh well that's what I'm wondering.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

I don't think she'd get into his car.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

Not willingly. But well, I don't know, because now that I've said all that, I'm thinking, well, if she's the the quiet wallflower who's trying to get popular and she's putting the makeup on as she goes to school, maybe she is trying to you know. Yeah, or adult too soon, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

See I can't relate because I've always been really cool with loads of friends, so what was it like for you? What happened? That was good.

SPEAKER_04 32:00

When questioned in early April 1969, he claimed he and another man named Wayne Greaser had spent the evening driving through nearby towns searching for a girl in Fremont before later picking up Ambrose's girlfriend in Meade, where they said they remained for part of the night.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Why are they and they think that makes them sound good or what? We just strolling through town looking for a girl.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

Mm-hmm. Any girl or a specific girl? I don't know. Uh I'm assuming a specific one. And did we get to talk to Ambrose's girlfriend about the whereabouts of him that night? I think you have to wait and find out. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

Greaser supported the account.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Greaser?

SPEAKER_04 32:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

I barely know her.

SPEAKER_04 32:50

Good one. Greaser supported the account, effectively providing Ambrose with an alibi, though investigators would later conclude the timeline could not be reliably verified. Even more frustrating, Ambrose passed his early polygraph examinations, a result authorities at the time treated as significant evidence in his favor. Which one did? Ambrose passed his polygraph. His early ones. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

So either he's a stone call psychopath or maybe polygraphs aren't as accurate as we uh Maybe. Assuming he did it. Maybe he just didn't do it. Maybe he's innocent.

SPEAKER_03 33:30

I don't think anybody thinks that they're necessarily accurate, do we? But I mean to pass one with flying colours is like it's like okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Um So you think they're more into giving false negatives than false positives, or what?

SPEAKER_03 33:46

I just think that they can tell if there's deception. I believe that.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:50

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

I I'm not sure whether I agree, but I'm I yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:56

I think I'd need to look more into it. Like I can see where you're coming from.

SPEAKER_03 33:59

At the end of the day, they can't be used in court for a reason and we can't go on them. But I think they are a good tool to rule out suspects.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

But they must uh are they able to be used in America in court? I don't think so. So why do why do we always hear of people refusing polygraphs or passing polygraphs?

SPEAKER_03 34:13

Because the police use them as a process of elimination. Right, okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 34:17

But it can't be brought up in court.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Interesting, okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

But I think I think the answer is just simple. Like they they are a good tool for that, but they also aren't accurate enough to be used as concrete evidence in court.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Like it's I'd be interested in hearing about cases where people have passed polygraphs but then it's been proven that it did the thing.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 34:36

Meanwhile, his car was never properly processed for forensic evidence. The shoe impressions found at the scene were not pursued, and witness statements were inconsistently followed up on.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

How, if there was all of that investigation going on, the FBI are involved, it's hands-on everywhere. How are there still holes in this investigation?

SPEAKER_04 34:58

I'll tell you right now. There had been no single lead investigator coordinating the inquiry. Multiple agencies participated, but communication and evidence management was lacking. Nebraska's modern investigative systems were still developing, and some officials later acknowledged many departments simply lacked homicide experience. Some reports were misplaced, others were never fully documented. What should have been a tightly controlled homicide investigation was a mess. Oh, what a shame. And while authorities could not prove Ambrose murdered Mary Kay, they did uncover other disturbing behavior during questioning. During a pre-polygraph interview, Ambrose reportedly admitted to purchasing alcohol for minors and engaging in sexual relationships with underage girls.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

Yeah, I believe all that.

SPEAKER_04 35:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

So why did he just admit that though? Did he is this the sort of thing where you admit to something small and then they don't pursue they think, oh well, he's definitely telling the truth for all the bad stuff then? I think so. It's a good tactic.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

Or did he feel under pressure and did they think they had someone so they intimidated him into it?

SPEAKER_00 36:19

But at that point, why would they not have intimidated him to into admitting to the Mary Kay thing if that's what if he is the guilty party?

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Or even if he isn't.

SPEAKER_04 36:28

Those confessions resulted in him being jailed for parole violations shortly after the murder. But he was not charged with killing her.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

I mean they've got no evidence they can't anyway. Oh, but yeah, maybe they can get him in cut custody for what he did admit and then have longer like a longer amount of time.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Did they ever ask him about what happened to his car? Is his car there?

SPEAKER_04 36:50

Okay. I don't know. I genuinely couldn't find anything on the questioning like regarding the car. Basically, it was just kind of like not investigated as far as I'm concerned. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 37:05

In fact, do you think do you think it's a case of they said apparently you drive this car, and he said, No, I don't, never seen that car before in my life. Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Honestly, I mean what proof do they have? I mean, I guess the title maybe, but Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:21

But he was known to drive it around the around town. Right. So I don't think he would deny that.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Odd. I guess we can't tell unless we know what they are.

SPEAKER_03 37:29

Oh, in unless it again it's as simple as, oh, I don't know, I took it here and I sold it to some guy that I don't know his name and prove it.

SPEAKER_04 37:36

Yeah, yeah. Despite the urgency of the investigation and the terror gripping the community, no arrest was made. Parents who once allowed their children to roam freely suddenly imposed curfews. Girls no longer walked home alone after school. Doors that had rarely been locked now clicked shut at night. Investigators believed an arrest was still possible, but momentum was fading. Publicly, authorities tried to project confidence, and Sullivan told reporters they were receiving information all the time and could have a break in the case anytime. He also said that Mary Kay's murder was the first homicide in Wahoo in seven years and the only unsolved violent crime the town had experienced in two decades. But behind the scenes, frustration was already growing. We just have no reason to think we're going to come up with anything very soon, Sullivan admitted months later. There's just not too much we can do now. We'll keep talking to people until we solve the case, if we ever do. Weeks passed, then months, eventually years.

SPEAKER_03 38:48

And if you've not got the evidence, you can't magic it up.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Yeah, it's not gonna get easier with time, is it?

SPEAKER_03 38:53

Mm-mm. The only thing that we you know is someone might squeal, who knows.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

I guess, yeah, or DNA, I suppose.

SPEAKER_04 39:00

Yeah, yeah. For more than fifty years, the murder of Mary Kay Hesse would haunt Wahoo. It was often described as one of Nebraska's oldest cold cases. As the years stretched on, Wahoo slowly returned to normal. Children grew up, families moved away. Yet Mary Kay's murder lingered. For her relatives, especially her younger cousins, Kathy Toll and Mark Miller, the loss never truly faded. Kathy had only been nine years old when Mary Kay was killed. Mark was eight. Both later described hearing Mary Kay's mother, Dorothy, wailing in grief after the body was discovered.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 39:42

A sound they said stayed with them for the rest of their lives.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

You'd wake up hearing it, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_04 39:48

Yeah. It's the kind of pain you feel across the room, Kathy later recalled. By the 1990s, advances in forensic science sparked optimism that older unsolved cases might finally be solved through DNA.

SPEAKER_03 40:04

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 40:05

In Nebraska, the creation of a dedicated cold case unit brought new attention to her murder. In 1999, Nebraska State Patrol investigator Bob Frank reopened the case. You can see a side-by-side photo of Bob Frank in 1999 and then a more recent image.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Oh wow. I mean they look like two like the sidekicks of each other that you'd you'd get in like uh like Men in Black or something. You've got the young guy on the left that's like trying to find all the aliens and kill them, and then the guy on the right that's just like, yeah, we've been doing this for years.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He does.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 40:43

Yeah. Oh god, I haven't seen the movie in years. Have you you've seen Men in Black. So good. That's so good. Guys, is it next week we have our Mean Girls Night?

SPEAKER_03 40:53

Yes. Tuesday. I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_04 40:54

Cannot wait. It just reminded me. Okay. Frank approached the investigation with fresh eyes. Again and again through his research, two names surfaced in the reports. Any guesses? Any guesses?

SPEAKER_03 41:08

Ambrose and Greaser.

SPEAKER_04 41:09

Joseph Ambrose and Wayne Greaser. Frank became convinced the pair were central to the murder. You know how you now have like your next image is a side-by-side of Ambrose on the left and Greaser on the right.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

My god, they look like such scallywags. I know.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Yeah. I was just gonna say, like the names coming up always Greaser and um Ambrose. Is that not just because they were like, is that not just confirmation bias? You've already interviewed them a lot.

SPEAKER_03 41:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

See, I wonder You're just gonna keep coming back to them because that's where all the evidence is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:42

It could be, but I I didn't take a picture, but there's literally, imagine like two trolley carts, like huge, just completely filled. I think it was like 18 binders worth of evidence and tips. Do you mean filing cabinet when you say trolley cart? No, like literally, like not a filing, just like a a trolley, like a like in cart on wheels? Yeah, okay, like in little. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Shopping cart.

SPEAKER_04 42:06

No. A trolley. No, that's a shopping cart. Sorry, a trolley. Anyway, point is 18 binders worth of evidence and tips and leads from when it happened. So I think this guy spent like years on it. So I wonder if it was something like you said, confirmation bias, or if he genuinely went through, which I believe he did every single lead, and was like, it keeps coming back to them. Right.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

And how was it keeping coming back to them? Was this like a lot of eyewitnesses or right?

SPEAKER_00 42:40

But what I'm thinking is, even if you've got all the evidence you've got, going over it multiple times is not gonna make it point to someone else. But I think as well. I think it can.

SPEAKER_04 42:51

No, I think it can. And also, I don't think anyone had ever done what he did. Because originally when the investigation happened, it was all the different agencies. I think he was one of the first persons. Right.

SPEAKER_03 43:03

Yes, everything. Yeah. But I think as well, it can happen when you get the thing about this one is that this is not fresh eyes. This is not a fresh detective. This is the same guy from all those years ago looking again. No? Oh. So he wasn't on the investigation in the 60s, 70s. No.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Oh. No, no, no, sorry. I thought that's why we had the picture of him as a little boy and then a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 43:28

Well, that was in 1999, and the most recent one is in 2025. So that wasn't a younger picture of him working on the case. No, no, no, no, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Right. That's why I was talking about it.

SPEAKER_03 43:37

That was him picking up the cold case. Right. Even more than okay. So if he is completely fresh eyes and he's getting the Ambrose and Greaser, then that does say more to me.

SPEAKER_04 43:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 43:48

Yeah. But also, uh just to finish my point from before, I think it can happen where you get completely fresh eyes, and then they actually do start picking up on stuff that maybe the cops from before with tunnel vision on someone else didn't exactly. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_04 44:02

By then, 1999, Greaser was dead. He had died by suicide in 1977. Uh taking whatever whatever knowledge he possessed with him to the grave. Greaser was described as someone who closely followed Ambrose and often deferred to him.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

What was their relationship like by 1977? I don't know. Did they like never speak to each other again after the hang around with each other? I bet they parted. If if we're saying it was these two, in my mind, I would think they would have completely parted ways. Yeah, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Oh well, I don't know. Once you murder someone together with someone, you you bested for life, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 44:46

Is that from experience?

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Well, that's how we got together.

SPEAKER_03 44:50

Yeah, you're right. It can go either way.

SPEAKER_04 44:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:53

And then I was even thinking, even if you didn't do it, but now the limelight's on you, you may still split up and not want to hang out anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

I'd also be worried that the other guy would squeal on you. You'd want to keep him close with me. There's that as well. You wouldn't want to be like, right, we're not talking anymore. Oh shit, he's gonna cops.

SPEAKER_03 45:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:13

Yeah. Some individuals claimed Ambrose or Greaser had privately confessed involvement over the years. Others described suspicious behavior around the time of the murder. Yet nearly all of it remained hearsay, impossible to present convincingly in court without direct witnesses or corroborating cor I can never say. Still, Frank pressed on. He re-examined physical evidence, collected from the crime scene, and Mary Kay's belongings. Her books, gloves, and clothing were tested for fingerprints and DNA. At the time, investigators hoped modern forensic methods might uncover something overlooked decades earlier. You can now see your next photo is a picture of her gloves. And then the second photo is, I believe that is Bob Frank looking at the sweater she was wearing.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 46:11

And Grisa didn't leave a suicide note. Not that I saw within my quick research. Do we know anything about his circumstances at that time?

SPEAKER_04 46:23

No. If we did, I didn't look that much into it. In the abdomen.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

Abdomen. And stomach. And stomach?

SPEAKER_04 46:32

Uh perhaps. Doubt it. Doubt it. Doubt it. Unfortunately, nothing definitive was found. But suspicion continued building around him. Frank traveled to Florida in 1999 to interview Ambrose directly. By then, Ambrose had moved repeatedly across the country, working various jobs, primarily as a truck driver. He's in it, what was late 50s, 60s? Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

A truck driver. No.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

That's a red flag, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 47:04

Yeah, he had be in his 50s. Sorry, anyway.

SPEAKER_03 47:07

That would be my dream job, by the way. A truck driver. Long distance lorry driver.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Yeah, get away from the ball in chain, am I right?

SPEAKER_03 47:14

If I didn't have dogs, I would love that job. In fact, I know a long-distance lorry driver who just takes his dog. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. They travel the whole country together and they keep in their little cabin together.

SPEAKER_04 47:26

That's so cute. Yeah. I love it. During the interview, Ambrose was co cooperative.

SPEAKER_03 47:33

Um, how did he get Ambrose to agree to this?

SPEAKER_04 47:37

I want to say he probably just rocked up.

SPEAKER_03 47:39

And Ambrose just said yeah, right. Bloody how.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Yeah, I know. See, this is why it's getting me. If he's innocent, why is he agreeing to all these interviews?

SPEAKER_03 47:47

Well, no, I'm thinking if he's guilty, why is he? It makes more sense.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

I meant that. Yeah. If he's guilty, why is he agreeing to all these interviews? But at the same time, if it's innocent, why is he agreeing to a table?

SPEAKER_03 47:57

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

He's got no reason to. Like, why would you why would you agree to a polygraph? I mean, apart from the the thought that if you disagree, if you refuse to do a polygraph and it makes you look guilty, which is stupid. Because maybe it does like make you look a little bit guilty, but you're also risking the fact that you're nervous that you set the polygraph up and everyone thinks you did it.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

No, any lawyer would tell you not to do the polygraph.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Um did I did Ambrose have a lawyer through this?

SPEAKER_04 48:25

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Damn, so he was just raw dogging it. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 48:30

He willingly answered questions, provided blood samples, and agreed to another polygraph. God, agreed to another one.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

And blood samples. Again. This just makes me think he knows he's got nothing to hide.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

Is this all like just bullion from one small place that's pinged it on these two? Maybe that's why Greaser killed himself later, because he couldn't get away from the reputation. Maybe it fucked his life up.

SPEAKER_00 48:57

If you imagine that Ambrose isn't quite all there, you know, he's trying to fake checks. Obviously, he wasn't very good at it. Got arrested, tried to break out, got out somehow, got arrested, keeps the greens of polygraphs for no reason, gives blood samples. I mean, maybe just a few sandwiches short of a picnic, and this is just we've got to get someone guilty for this. Let's keep throwing it at this guy who is clearly mental. Well, not mental, that's too much, but like clearly not with it. Not with it, not getting a lawyer, not I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:31

Well, what happened with the blood samples? I have no idea. It probably just didn't amount to anything. That's why I can't.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Well, if his DNA matched, they'd have arrested him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:39

Right. Did they have DNA? Well, kind of. That's 1999, so it's nowhere near what we have.

SPEAKER_03 49:46

Well, they m if they wanted blood samples, they must have been able to test it again against something, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Or maybe it was another bluff, like will he give us blood samples? Oh, he had. Oh shit.

SPEAKER_03 49:58

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Because then maybe if you said no, maybe then you could get a warrant, and maybe then you could search his premises and do more. Exactly just offering it all up, then they then they can't.

SPEAKER_04 50:11

Oh god, okay. Frank noticed the inconsistencies. Ambrose's account of his whereabouts on the night of the murder shifted from earlier versions.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

And how many years later was that?

SPEAKER_04 50:24

30.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Oh, come on. I know it's gonna guy some slack. What should actually be the matter?

SPEAKER_04 50:30

In 1969, he strongly emphasized being with Wayne Greaser. In 1999, he seemed uncertain, claiming he no longer remembered. Then there was the shoe print. Investigators had preserved a print from the scene measuring nine and a half, the same size Ambrose wore. Later investigators also believed the tread pattern resembled a prison-issued shoe that Ambrose, who was on parole at the time, may have owned. Are you taking your prisoner shoes home? I wonder if it was a situation where he did.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

I don't know. If he's hanging out with people, he's got a job. Like, would he not be wearing like his work shoes or something?

SPEAKER_03 51:13

You're not wear- You're work shoes. You don't have enough money to just give shoes away. You're handing them back in the moment you leave.

SPEAKER_04 51:20

Um I was thinking of the other way around. Maybe he didn't have enough money for a pair of shoes, so he took them. Maybe. I I mean, I don't know anything about his financial situation at all. It's just purely a guess.

SPEAKER_00 51:33

It's not like he's just been released from prison. He's been out and about for a good few months if he's got a job and been a good one. Yeah. So he's not still wearing his prison shoes.

SPEAKER_03 51:45

No, that's silly. And then also the nine and a half shoes. I mean, it's a man-sized average shoe, anyone could I don't think it's a smoking gun. Okay, fine. Well to wait and find out. And if it's a smoking gun. I don't know. And if it is a prison issue shoe, then can you not look at all the other prisoners that were let out around that time? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, so 9.5. That's more likely.

SPEAKER_04 52:14

Yeah, I think it was just the accumulation of the car, the shoe, his behavior. But you never know. Ambrose brushed to the side. When confronted with reports that Greaser had allegedly confessed before his death. Oh no, it's alleged. Oh, they just said he did despite it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

Nice.

SPEAKER_04 52:36

Ambrose became visibly agitated.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Well, yeah, so would you if you would be like, oh, Greaster's dropped me in it and then killed himself. So now I'm look really guilty. Thanks, Greister. I'd be upset.

SPEAKER_03 52:47

And especially if you weren't guilty as well. Okay, that's what I'm saying. Being irritated about it doesn't mean you're guilty. Uh-uh.

SPEAKER_04 52:55

I had nothing to do with it, he insisted. But despite Frank's suspicions, prosecutors again declined to move forward. By 2004, investigators acknowledged publicly that DNA evidence available at the time did not match Ambrose. Um, okay, it wasn't him then.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:14

Authorities even pursued testing involving relatives of another suspect because the suspect himself was already dead.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

Is this Greaser?

SPEAKER_04 53:23

While the newspaper I read did not explicitly list these two suspects as Ambrose and Greaser, it can be implied. In 2005, the U.S. Department of Justice awarded the Nebraska State Patrol a $250,000 grant used in part to reopen Mary Kay's case and another unsolved homicide. However, decades after the murder, authorities still could not place Ambrose at the scene through physical evidence. There's no murder weapon, no eyewitness to the attack, and no forensic evidence directly linking him to Mary Kay's death.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

So he didn't do it.

SPEAKER_03 54:02

There isn't just no direct DNA linking him. There is DNA that does not match him.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

You're gonna tell me they convicted a totally innocent guy.

SPEAKER_04 54:16

I don't know, you have to wait and find out. The case remained unsolved. In 2009, the Nebraska State Patrol officially closed the investigation once again and returned her file to storage.

SPEAKER_03 54:32

Well, not waste. They tried, they failed. There isn't enough there. No. You need the car.

SPEAKER_04 54:40

Mm-hmm. Buried in boxes and forgotten paperwork, Mary Kay's killer appeared destined to get away with murder. And that's where we're gonna leave it for part one.

SPEAKER_03 54:52

Oh my god. Tune in next time for part two. I can't wait to hear what happens.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

Oh, I'm intrigued.

SPEAKER_03 55:01

Yay! Tune it in next week for a real good tale.

SPEAKER_04 55:25

I may need to sit on the towel.