An Papal Staple

Welcome to Red Herrings!

This week, Brittany asks us if we think this figure in power ever actually existed...

Hosted by: Brittany Warren & Joccoaa Gray
 
Sound Engineer & Co-host: Christopher Brown
 
Edited by: Joccoaa Gray

If you would like to get in touch, please contact us at redherringspod@gmail.com.

Sources:

• Britannica
• Historyextra.com
• lincolndiocese.org
• discoveryuk.com
• EBSCO.com
• catholicstraightanswers.com
• British Library 
• Smithsonian
• newadvent.org
• BBC

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to Red Herrings. I'm Jakwa, Master's student in law and human rights, host of True Crime Club Newcastle, and creator of True Crime Forum Newcastle.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hi, I'm Brittany. I have two degrees in history and 15 years experience in genealogy. We're the red herrings.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

Well, well, well. What do we have here? Two red herrings and the catch of the day. Don't forget about me.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Hi, Chris! We're the red herrings.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

And Chris!

SPEAKER_00 0:34

What if one of the most powerful figures in history never existed at all? For centuries, people believed that a woman had secretly risen to the highest position in the Catholic Church, disguising herself as a man and ruling as Pope.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Her story would be told, retold, and repeated for generations, despite the fact that when she is looked for in the historical record, she is nowhere to be found. Okay. But like all legends, the story does not begin where it claims to have happened. It begins much, much later, emerging from the writings of medieval chroniclers who lived hundreds of years after the fact. Because when we turn to the ninth century, the period in which she was supposed to have lived, the silence is notable. The alleged reign of Pope Joan is usually between Pope Leo IV and Pope Benedict III, around 855 to 858.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

855 to 858, three years. Not a hundred years. No, sorry, but is right. So that was the year 855 to 858. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

You can now see a contemporary fresco of Pope Leo IV in Rome. So it means I was not ready. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Where's my supplementary material?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Get on it, Christophorus. So that first image is a fresco that was created during Pope Leo IV's reign. So we're talking the 800s.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

I mean that's giving man to me. Oh, that's the first one. Well, that's that's Pope Leo.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

That's not Pope Joan. That's but it's just to show, like kind of put a face to the name.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

The second image is a papal seal of Pope Benedict III. I did try to find an image of him, but there isn't any, so that's his seal, the one on the left, says Benedict. Okay. I don't know when that dates from. Sorry, didn't write that down. This is not a poorly recorded era. It is, in fact, unusually well documented. There are charters, letters, coins, and correspondence from major contemporary figures, and even from political and theological opponents of the papacy. These were men who did not hesitate to criticize Rome, who documented disputes in detail, and who have seized upon any scandal. Even figures hostile to Rome remained silent. Fodius I of Constantinople, a fierce critic of the papacy in the ninth century, wrote extensively against it, yet never once mentioned anything resembling a female pope, despite every reason to do so. Alright.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

So d would that suggest that this isn't true?

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Potentially. Okay. The timeline leaves no room for her. Pope Leo IV died on July 17th, 855. Almost immediately, Pope Benedict III was elected.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

See, I thought it took a while for Popes to be elected back then because you had to send out messengers to all the cardinals.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

She said it was almost immediately Chris.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Okay, sorry, sorry, Brittany.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Are you uh are you questioning?

SPEAKER_00 3:56

I would never question. Are you questioning me?

SPEAKER_03 3:58

No, no, no, no, not at all.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Well, no, that is a valid point. And I don't know like how quickly word got out. I don't know if they knew he was dying and sent letters out ahead of time and already had people there in Rome. I don't know. It does say that there was a brief conflict involving an anti-pope. Benedict was recognized quickly, issuing official documents by October of that same year.

SPEAKER_03 4:21

It's a shame we don't have anti-pope drama now. Can you imagine?

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Can I ask what is that?

SPEAKER_03 4:25

It's when like a medieval king decides it would be quite nice if like someone, a bishop that I like or supports me was Pope and says this guy's Pope.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

And that's an antipope.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

That's an anti-pope.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Yeah, so basically they weren't voted for, they were like put into place. But it it should be like everyone votes for who they want. Who votes for Pope? Cardinals. Who are they?

SPEAKER_03 4:46

They're like so first you're a priest. Yes. Then you're a bishop. Bishop. Then you're a cardinal. It's like you get promoted, but all these promotions are done by the current Pope.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Coins from the period bear his image alongside that of Emperor Lothar, confirming his authority before the end of September. There's no gap and no unexplained absence. Even the closest things sometimes cited as contemporary evidence begins to unravel under scrutiny. References attributed to Anastasius Bibliotharius.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Well done. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

I practiced that all day. A ninth century scholar, papal librarian, and author associated with the Roman Church appear only in a single manuscript, inserted as a marginal note in a different hand, one that dates from after the 13th century. So basically, this guy wrote a manuscript, and in a margin is a little handwriting mentioning Pope Joan, like 400 years after he wrote the manuscript. What's that mean? It means that he didn't write it. So it's not coming because he lived at the time which they think Pope Joan lived in the 900s, and so he didn't write it, but 400 years after he died, and Pope Joan supposedly died, someone else inserted it in his manuscript. So it means nothing.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

Likely to know whether Pope Joan existed or not.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

They didn't write it. No.

SPEAKER_03 6:13

Maybe he was embarrassed at the time. Maybe it was Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

We don't know. This suggests it was a later edition, likely copying an already circulating legend rather than preserving an earlier tradition. Okay. Yeah. The same pattern appears in manuscripts of Marianus Scotus. An Irish monk and chronicler known for compelling widely used medieval histories. Compiling? Compiling. Compile it all together. Yeah, I thought you said compelling. Sorry. She did say compelling. Did I? Yes. Compiling. Let me read that for a third time. An Irish monk and chronicler known for compiling widely used medieval histories. Some later copies mention a female pope named Joanna. Earlier versions do not.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

Isn't it a thing where they call Joanna like a like isn't that just like the old medieval John? Mm-hmm. Okay. So it could have been a pope called John.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

It could have been, yes. Or Johannes. Right. Johanna gap for this pope, though. No. Not in the 9th century.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

But maybe the records have been falsified.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Oh, there's one later.

unknown 7:24

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

And this is this in the Vatican? Fantastic question. We'll get to it.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

I love how you always ask these questions. I'm like, I can't say anything now because I'm gonna give it away.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

No, that's not a bad thing, Jacoa. Seriously, it makes me so happy because I'm like, I want to tell you so badly, but we'll get to it. The story was not recorded at the time, but was added afterwards. Roughly 400 years after she was supposed to have lived, the first identifiable accounts begin to appear. The earliest comes from Jean de Mallee, a Dominican friar and chronicler writing in the mid-1200s, whose account reflects the period in which the story first began to circulate rather than a record of contemporary events. How does he know? It's just passed down word of mouth by that point.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

I don't like an eyewitness testimony from two weeks ago.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Now we're talking 300 years later. Yeah. Okay. Christopher, would you like to read some Latin for me? I would love to.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

In his Chronica Universalis Metensis.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

He describes an unnamed woman who disguised herself as a man and rose through the church to become pope. He does not name her. He does not place her in the 9th century, but around the year 1100. Already the story is uncertain and detached from any verifiable timeline. Can I Okay.

SPEAKER_04 9:02

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

He's so he's now maybe writing it a hundred years after the So where did 1855 come from? 855. Sorry. That to be honest, there's so many gaps in this, and it's hard to identify where certain things come from and what's just been retold. And I'm not entirely sure.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Okay, but we were talking a thousand years ago, right? Yeah. That's a long time.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Yeah. I'm just wondering if I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

If the first person who said it said it was 1100, where'd eight where did 855 come from?

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Mm-hmm. We'll kind of discuss a little bit like in relation to that later, but exactly 855, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Okay. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Or was it from that manuscript where someone else wrote it later?

SPEAKER_03 9:49

Right, where someone wrote in the margin, Pope Joe, between three. Maybe, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

I don't know, because we don't have actually like the words that were written. Why? Just doesn't exist. Why? I don't know. Is it this sort of 1200 years? Then how do we know it happened? Everyone's gonna be the entire gist of this story. Okay. How do we know that anything I'm saying is true?

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Oh my gosh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

A woman of great ability, barred from advancing in the church, adopts a male identity. She succeeds, rising until she reaches the pinnacle of power. The story is taken up and reshaped by Stephen of Bourbon, a Dominican preacher, helping spread the story further. But it is Martin of Opava, a papal chaplain and chronicler, who transforms it into the version that would go down in history.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Can I put something in? I don't think this was a woman disguised as a man. I think this was a trans man.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

I knew you were gonna say that. You never know. Yeah, that's what I think. So if you turn to your supplementary materials, the sec the second image you have is uh Martin of Opava.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

I thought that was gonna you were gonna tell us that was Pope Joan. Because he looks a bit like a woman.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Is it the two fingers?

SPEAKER_03 11:16

He's got his fingernails.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Stop, not when I'm drinking. That was a lot of control to uh can I ask you why you think that's a woman? Because I think you're being sexist.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

He just looks like if you think of an old woman and you squint, I don't know. Do you not think? It's giving that vibe.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

I think there's definitely feminine features. I think the lips are quite big and juicy. I think the eyes are larger and deer-like. That could definitely be someone painting a woman when they don't realize it is a woman.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Maybe.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

I agree.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

It is a papal chaplain and chronicler, but yes, you never know.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

It's definitely not, it's just Mr. Martin.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

It's just Martinova Pava. Hate to break it to you.

unknown 11:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

He gives her a name, John Anglicus of Mainz, and moves her from the 1100s to the 9th century. So it's Martinova Pava. Here we go, I've answered your question. He's the one who brings her to the 9th century. So prior to Jean de Malley, who placed her around 1100, there was no written down recorded year of when she supposedly reigned. It was Jean de Malley who said 1100s. Martinova Pava was like, no, it was 300 years prior to that.

unknown 12:31

Don't know.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

What qualifications does Martinova mean? He's a chronicler.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

He writes things too.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

He's got a hat. Is he a bishop?

SPEAKER_00 12:38

I I don't know. Men don't need qualifications. He was a papal chaplain.

SPEAKER_04 12:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

He adds detail, and according to him, she was born in Mainz, Germany, though described as English. An inconsistency later writers attempted to explain. And as far as I've found, there's no explanation for that.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

So they tried and they failed.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

And they failed. As a young woman, she fell in love and determined to remain with her lover and gain access to education. She disguised herself as a man and followed him to Athens. There she studied the arts and became so proficient that she surpassed her peers. Can I ask you a question? How often does this happen in history?

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Women disguising themselves as men. Is this common?

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Oh, far more than we realize.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Okay. Far more. I thought you were going to say that. So this isn't like a weird anomaly or indeed an anomaly. This actually, you know, this isn't a far out of the world. It happened quite frequently.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Immediately what comes to mind is the Lulan. Yes. I know me too. The American Civil War in the 1860s. There's so many references to women cutting their hair short, dressing as men, and fighting in the war. Because they fought for a cause that they want that they believed in, and women were not allowed to fight. You can look it up. There's so that's immediately what came to mind when you suggested this, and that's just the 1860s.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Women are so badass. You know, you bet your bottom dollar. Bet your bottom dollar. If it was the other way around, men are not growing their hair long and putting lipstick on to go and fight in war.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Yeah, men just do it without, you know, making a big deal out of it.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Just send over there grinning to yourself.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

That's why conscription's a thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:41

They have to make them do it.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Some maybe, but some probably willingly want to fight.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

That's crazy that women did that.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

You would not catch me. Oh my god, say I've got better things to do. No one wants me there. Oh my god. Can you imagine? Can you imagine my voice in the trenches?

SPEAKER_03 15:05

You can't ask me to do that. That's like a breach of my human rights.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Oh my god. Yeah, that one. I would be insufferable. I'd just be cold and wet all the time and everyone would know about it.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

I would be miserable. Mm-hmm. Trench foot. Uh-uh. Nah. No, no, no, no. No.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

Christopher, where's my hot water bubble?

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Massage my feet.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

I don't even like it when the sock goes down my foot, my shoe while I'm walking. Like kills me.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

No, no. Anyway, sorry. Right? There she studied the arts and became so proficient that she surpassed her peers. From Athens, she traveled to Rome, where she publicly lectured and impressed scholars. Her reputation grew until she became one of the most respected figures in the city. From there, she became a notary, then a cardinal, and after the death of Pope Leo IV, she was elected Pope by common consent. For two years, seven months and four days, she ruled, which wouldn't make sense. But it is a detail, repeat it so often that it lends the legend an air of authenticity.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

But the story takes a sudden turn, and always in the same way, no matter the version told. Oh really? What happens? A procession moves through Rome, from St. Peter's towards the Lateran. The route passes between the Colosseum and the Church of St. Clement. I've screenshotted you. From the Colosseum to the Church of St. Clement is a seven-minute walk. Right. Crowds gather. The Pope rides in full regalia. And then in the middle of the procession, she collapses. And in full view of the crowd, she gives birth. Fuck. The illusion is shattered, and the Pope is revealed to be a woman. Oh, that's some man made that up.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

And then she just went pop and a baby popped out.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Some man magically. Your next image is a 15th century illustrated manuscript of Pope Joan. And this is the one I thought would absolutely crack you guys up. Look at their feet. Oh my oh my. Oh wow. It's a baby just popping out. Oh, it just came out of me. That's not a baby, that's a two-year-old. It's a mini adult in baby form.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

It's just sort of porking out of a dress.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Just fell out.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Just fell out.

SPEAKER_03 17:43

These these things just happen.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

This is from the imagination of a of a man that knows nothing.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

It's like you know those medieval paintings of lions and things that they've obviously just heard of what a lion is.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

And they know nothing of what it looks like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:57

It's like someone who's never witnessed childbirth. Childbirth has a baby. Drawn what yeah. Drawn what they think childbirth is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yes. What happens next depends on the version you read, but the outcome is always the same. Her reign ends in that moment. In Jean de Malie's version, she is dragged through the streets behind a horse and stoned to death by an enraged crowd. Well, that I believe.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

So at least she died happy. Stoned.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Happy. Oh my god. At the place of her death, an inscription is said to have been erected, marking both the event and the shame it represented. Shame is in quotes, by the way. Some accounts say she died immediately. Others claim she survived, only to be deposed and forced into penance. One version even suggests her son later became bishop of Ostia. But the legend does not end there. Wouldn't they consider it a miracle? Wouldn't they know because it's a woman.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

But what a woman You think she could have talked her way out of it.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yeah, like no, I'm not a woman. I've just been changed by God and delivered my baby.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

Baby Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

It only happened like 800 years ago. Before. Yeah. Yeah. These people are gullabul. It's one word board. You could twist that.

SPEAKER_03 19:19

Yeah. I mean, if you believe in Sky Daddy, then you'll believe in anything. Spontaneous conversion to a female.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Wow, I've changed genders and haven't had a baby. Like literally. You'd be like Magic the Miracle.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Yeah. But look, if you've talked your way into being Pope, you can talk your way into anything in a parade.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Story's bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

In some retellings, the story was embellished with accounts of strange events said to follow her exposure.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Oh, like now we're going into like witchcraft, bad women, detail regarding that. Yeah, but it's like the same thing. It's like the vilification afterwards. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Reflecting how the legend continued to grow in scale and imagination. According to later accounts, the church responded with rituals to prevent such deception from happening again. What do you think this ritual consisted of? Use your imagination because you're not gonna get it. You're not fucking milking each other to make sure they're they're actually men.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

Better give them a good tug.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

A chair. Was said to be used to verify the sex of newly elected popes. Do you stand on the chair? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

That's so funny. I wonder if that's still in the uh Vatican's collection.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

I couldn't find anything. I googled it and like nothing came up. There was just a imagery with like a little hole in it.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

A hole in it.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Theory. Other things happened besides checking.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Well, this is what I'm gonna say. They made that story up so that they could feel up the popes or young people who wanted to be popes.

SPEAKER_03 21:10

The pope has to be inspected by every cardinal. Yes, yes. Has to have a good feel.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Yes. I'm deadly serious.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Yeah, you're laughing. But the thing is I'm not disagreeing with you. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. Uh-huh. Okay. Well, I'm glad we solved it. Don't need to go any further. Done. Tune it in.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Didn't that happen to the most recent Pope?

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yes. They don't let these traditions lie.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

So you think he sat on a got his trousers down or his cassock, whatever they were?

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

And was some reason I doubt it.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

His balls were weighed.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Why would you doubt that? They keep these things. He's American. So? He'd be like, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

He's the Pope. He's not saying no to anything.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

I think he's saying no to things. I think that may. And probably says no to a lot of things. Why? Because Americans are better than Europeans. No, no, no, that's not at all what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

More forward thinking.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

I'm just saying we're more um blunt. And we say what we want.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Oh no, the Germans are blunt as fuck. Yeah, I think it's not German. English people that are too polite.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Yeah, a bit of a pushover, Christopher. The Italians are quite blunt as well. Oh yeah. I'm only kidding, you're not a pushover. Okay, anyway, moving on. These chairs likely had entirely different ceremonial or practical origins, later reinterpreted through the lens of the legend. Yeah, I feel nothing of it. I have no idea to pee through it if you're in the middle of a meeting and you're like, oh, I gotta go.

SPEAKER_03 22:43

When you've gotta go, you've gotta go.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Yeah, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Uh like an upside down glory hole. It makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

I'm seeing it. I apologize.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Perfect. It was also said that papal processions avoided the street where she had given birth. In reality, routes did change, but there's no evidence linking this practice to the supposed event. Instead, the legend began to shape reality, or at least the perception of it. By the 14th and 15th centuries, Pope Joan was widely accepted as historical fact. That's mad how they do that. You'll see your next image is a 15th century illustrated manuscript of Pope Joan with her little baby on a horse.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Literally, back in those days, like one guy says something and everyone's like, mm-hmm. Yeah, for like the next thousand years. That definitely happened, everyone. Humans are wild.

SPEAKER_03 23:51

I mean, it looks good to me. I believe that.

unknown 23:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Horse's head's too small for its body.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Oh my god. He was lying down like Van Gogh. She was not simply a curiosity of folklore. Her story appeared in sermons, religious writings, and books printed even within the Papal States themselves, where she was used as a moral example as though she had truly existed.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Moral example in what way exactly? Women.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Yes, okay. Nowhere is this more striking with evidence than that of the Siena Cathedral. Your next two photos are the exterior and interior of the Siena Cathedral in Siena, Italy. That's a nice cathedral. It's very nice. I want to go.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

It is pretty.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Completed in 1263, its interior features a long series of sculpted busts of popes lining the nave. Among them for centuries stood one labeled Johannes the Eighth, Fomina Di Anglia. AKA John VIII, an English woman. It was literally labelled on it. On the base. Hmm.

SPEAKER_04 25:13

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

That's interesting. Is that a mistake? Is that a typo? No. What's that mean then? Johannes VIII.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

And when does that date from, sorry?

SPEAKER_00 25:26

I don't know. Oh, the bust? Yeah. I don't know. Unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

I I But they believed in it enough to make a bust of her.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

It's given the vibe of Jacoa goes in a Hindu to Rome and ends up being elected Pope. Like, I don't know, guys. I guess I live here now.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Made a bust of me. Imagine that reality.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

Oh god. I'm not sure whether they'd be more upset about him being a woman or being a Geordie.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Northumbrian.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Well, she was considered to be an English woman. She could have been from anywhere. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

She could have been a Geordie.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

She could have been. She was not a rumor. She was not a rumor. She was carved into stone, placed among legitimate pontiffs, visually indistinguishable in status. For medieval visitors, she was part of the official history of the papacy. At the Council of Constance in 1415, Jan Hus, a religious reformer from Bohemia, whose teachings challenged the authority and practices of the church, cited her existence as fact during his trial for heresy. The council itself was a major gathering convened to resolve the Western schism and address reform within the church. Hughes's views were ultimately condemned and he was executed. But most notably his reference to a female pope went unchallenged in the proceedings, suggesting the story was already widely familiar. Why do you use it? What do we see context? I don't know. I wonder. Potentially.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

If they can do you know, they were saying that I don't know, I'd assume he was saying that look, you elected a woman. What the fuck, guys? Get it together.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

It's possible, yes. Earlier still, in 1391, an English reformer, Walter Brute, invoked Pope Joan in his own defense during an ecclesiastic ecclesiastical.

SPEAKER_03 27:35

Ecclesiastical.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Ecclesia during an ecclesiastical trial. Brute was being thank you.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

We love ecclesiastical trials. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Brute was being examined for heretical views, particularly criticisms of church authority, and he used the story as an example to support his arguments.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Right, so so did the other guy, probably.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah. Treating it as something his audience would already recognize rather than needing to prove. Even Bartolomeo Platina, writing under papal patr papal patronage in 1479, included her story in his histories of the popes. As a humanist scholar and official within the papal court, Plotina's work carried significant authority, and he noted the belief in Pope Joan extended to almost all men, his words, reflecting how widely accepted the story had become by the late 15th century. And then gradually that history began to unravel. It would not be until the 16th century that questions began to be asked about the truth of Pope Joan. In 1587, the French jurist and magistrate Floremand de Raymond, effect, thank you, published one of the first serious attempts to dismantle the legend using methods of textual criticism. His work approached the story not as tradition, but as a problem to be tested against sources. And as it went through multiple editions in the following decades, the legend began to come apart detail by detail. Around the same time, the Italian historian Onofrio Pavanio offered an alternative explanation, suggesting the story may have grown out of rumors surrounding Pope John XII, a figure known for scandal, whose influential mistress, sometimes named Joan, may have helped inspire the tale. Okay. That's all I have on that.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Okay, so they were saying that he's not really Pope, his wife Joan is Pope.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

It could be that, yes. I don't have any more. No.

SPEAKER_03 29:56

Red flag.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Another theory places the origins elsewhere, suggesting the story grew out of gossip surrounding powerful Roman women such as Morosia and her mother Theodora of the House of Theophlect. Figures who were said to wield significant influence over the papacy in the tenth century. The gap between Joan's supposed life in the 9th century and the first appearance of her story nearly 400 years later became increasingly difficult to ignore. The legend was effectively demolished in 1647 by the Protestant historian David Blondel, who, through detailed analysis of chronology and sources, demonstrated that the events described could not have occurred and suggested the story may even have may even have originated as satire aimed at earlier popes. Oh interesting. Okay, yeah, by that as well.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

So they were saying he was a bit of a bit of a sissy boy.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

By then the church had already acted. In 1601, Pope Clement VIII declared the legend untrue. The bust in Siena was altered or repaired, often re-identified as Pope Zachary. By this point, what had once been accepted as history was being actively demolished. So did you say that bust was corrected? So replaced?

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Do we really know that it was ever wrong in the first place?

SPEAKER_00 31:30

I don't know. I I do believe that there was, just because it was written about at the time. Right, so it was like in records. Yeah. That's what it said. Alright. I do believe that. I just don't have a photo, so there isn't any, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03 31:46

It's difficult when we're talking about stuff that was a thousand years ago, isn't it? Just a bit. Yeah. Why can't they have invented photography sooner?

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Awful. I even tried to find if there was like a sketching that someone had done. There was nothing. I don't even know if those bus are still there in the Siena Cathedral. They could be.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

Road trip.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Road trip. I'd be down. Let's go. Where is it? Sienna. Italy. Sure. Sure. Chris, are you driving? Sure. What for for you us to pay you to drive us?

SPEAKER_03 32:20

Well, of course. I don't do this shit for free.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

I thought you would buy us food and drinks and drive. And drive, yes.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

We always drink and drive on this point.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Oh my god. Not anymore. New Year's resolution. Proud of you. Some of us. So proud. Gold star. Platinum Heart. Stop looking at me, please. I am drinking a tea. Tea. An alcoholic tea. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Okay. I'm not convinced so far.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

I am. This is bullshit. Sorry. No, it's pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Convince me.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Thing is, I'm not convinced either. No, it didn't happen. But it's very interesting. So you lost me at dropped Beth on the street. Yeah, same. Lost myself there too. Joan had been carved into history and now she was being carved out. But she did not disappear. Even after being dismantled by historians, the legend continued. During the Reformation, the story took on a new role. Protestant writers used Pope Joan as evidence of corruption within the Catholic Church, while Catholic scholars worked to discredit it. The debate became less about history and more about ideology. Writers on both sides engaged with the legend. In England, Alexander Cook published Pope Joan, a dialogue between a Protestant and a Papist, presenting the story as fact and claiming it could be supported by Catholic sources themselves. Other editions even included vivid descriptions and illustrations of her supposed exposure during the public procession, reinforcing the dramatic core of the legend. In later centuries, it was revived again and again, reshaped to fit new narratives about corruption, gender, and power. In 2018, researchers Michael E. Hobigt and Margareta Spiker argued that variations in papal coin monograms, particularly those attributed to Pope John VIII, might point to the existence of two different figures. What? One potentially Pope Joan, and even suggested a brief reign in 858 between Benedict III and Nicholas II. So they're making this theory based off of coins. And what is it about the coins? So coins at the time had imagery of either the Pope and or the Emperor. Right. And so they're saying that there's a discrepancy in some of the coins that date to about 858, saying one could be this John VIII, and one could be somebody else. What's the discrepancy? I don't know because I can't find any research on it. I Googled them and I can't find anything. Then how can they say this? And Michael E. Hobigt is an Egyptologist.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

So why he has thousands of papers out there about Egyptology and hasn't written a thing backing this up. Nah, bullshit.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

I couldn't find like nah. See, I like the theory that this did happen and the Vatican's covered it up and like it.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

But there's nothing to prove it.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

Yeah, I get that, but then think how much stuff they've got in the Vatican Library. I know how much they're hiding. Right, exactly. I want to believe it. I can see that people were using this in like in well, like Jan Hoos in his trial for heresy, he was coming up with this stuff and using it to like discredit the church. I can think it would be helpful for them to sort of like brush this under the rug, make us think as we do now that it was bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

I agree. I want to believe it so badly, but to me, I'm seeing evidence. Because why not? She's a woman who rose through the ranks, who disguised herself as a man. She was like, I'm Pope. And no one found out. But in order for you to believe that, you also have to believe that she gave birth on the street and then was stoned to death. I don't know about that. Well, okay I mean details. She was a pregnancy.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

I'm not saying that she may not have been pregnant and given birth, but like that on the street and then immediately stoned to death. Not even thinking to see that.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

I mean, what else do they have to do with that? I know.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

I I kind of I guess I guess. The stoning thing, because they love a bit of that, right? The Catholics and the Christians and stuff. Yeah, we do like that.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Just every actually all sort of religions, I think, like a bit of stoning thing. Yeah, I won't discriminate. That's why I'm just thinking still on which trials. Like literally everyone. Stones and more. Like you've got to put laws in place to stop humans from stoning each other.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

So yeah, I can see it and I believe it. Um I don't want to. I think I'd rather believe she just never existed, because then I if she did, I have to believe the other stuff. And I don't want that really.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Yeah. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Where'd the Ben go?

SPEAKER_00 37:18

The baby. No idea. Some say he became a bishop, and besides that, I've no idea. Bishop of Ostia. Which is outside Rome. See? The theory remains disputed and unaccepted by most historians, but its very existence show how persistent the question has become. The overwhelming consensus remains clear. There's no credible evidence that Pope Joan ever existed. As one modern historian put it, she is a woman who never lived, but who nevertheless refuses to die. No contemporary records, no place in the timeline, and no reliable documentation. The story appears too late, changes too often, and contradicts too many established facts, and yet it endures. Today, Pope Joan is regarded by almost all historians as fictional, but the legend has never fully disappeared, continuing to inspire novels, films, and debates about women, authority, and belief. Perhaps because it speaks to something deeper than history. Perhaps because it reflects the anxieties and ideas of the people who told it. Perhaps because it is a story that can be reshaped to fit almost any narrative. But why was it invented? There's no single answer. It's for that ball chair. It's for the ball chair. Done dusted. Don't need to read anymore. The the Dangolese chair.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

And God did perform a miracle.

SPEAKER_03 39:05

And we're just like, that didn't fucking happen, did it?

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Well, and the and they stoned them to death.

SPEAKER_03 39:12

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Imagine if it was another full-blown Jesus Christ moment. Full on full-on miracle. Changes it to a woman in the street, impregnates it, makes the baby come out, and then they just immediately stone him.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Yeah, because they don't believe.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

What the fuck, guys?

SPEAKER_00 39:34

They've never received a miracle since. It's like, I thought if you believed anyone, it would be the Pope, Ganys.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

Like, come on, what have I gotta do? Imagine.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

And then that was when God was like, right, I'm never coming back.

SPEAKER_03 39:47

I think we've solved it.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Done! That was with that. Yep. Yeah. It may have been satire, misunderstanding, gossip, or deliberate invention. It may have also been drawn from earlier stories or cultural tensions. What we do know is that closer you get to the supposed event, the quieter the record becomes, and by the time the story finally appears, it is already fully formed. So, what if one of the most powerful figures in history never existed at all? In the case of Pope Joan, the answer is simple. It didn't matter. People believed she did, and that belief was powerful enough to make her part of history anyway.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

She is definitely a part of history, whether a figment of the imagination or not. Exactly. And that's pretty cool. That some may argue even makes her real.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

There we go. Sources.

unknown 40:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Britannica. History extra. LincolnDiocese.org. Discoveryuk.com. Um, I don't actually know what this stands for. ABS Co EBSCO.com. Catholic straightanswers.com. Catholics.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

I went.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

I went down some rabbit holes for this. British Library, Smithsonian, NewAdvent.org, and the BBC. Amazing. Brittany, what do you think? I as much as I genuinely want her to be real, I don't think she was.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

I think that's fair. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

I think they had nothing better to do than to make up some some bullshit. Also, I think there was definitely some appetite for reform in the Catholic Church, and perhaps a female pope would have been a good um way to say, well, Pope's just, you know, we've got this female pope. Obviously, they're not inf you know, they're not infallible, they're just picking random people to be pope.

SPEAKER_04 41:51

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

It's a good way to discredit the papacy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 41:56

Yeah, that's that. Tune it in next week for a real good tale.