Red Herrings
Where history gets messy and the law gets loud.
Brittany and Joccoaa take turns serving up shocking crimes and unforgettable legal battles. One brings the past, the other brings the courtroom — and together, they bring the chaos.
It’s smart, a little unhinged, and full of twists you won’t see coming.
Red Herrings
A Miner Problem
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Welcome to Red Herrings!
This week, Brittany asks us if we know where to find the treasure...
Hosted by: Brittany Warren & Joccoaa Gray
Sound Engineer & Co-host: Christopher Brown
Edited by: Joccoaa Gray
If you would like to get in touch, please contact us at redherringspod@gmail.com.
Sources:
Welcome to Red Herrings. I'm Jacoa, Master's student in law and human rights, host of True Crime Club Newcastle, and creator of True Crime Forum Newcastle.
SPEAKER_03Hi, I'm Brittany. I have two degrees in history and 15 years experience in genealogy. We're the red herrings.
SPEAKER_00Well, well, well. What do we have here? Two red herrings and the catch of the day. Don't forget about me.
SPEAKER_02Hi, Chris! We're the red herrings.
SPEAKER_00And Chris.
SPEAKER_03I have a question for you guys before we begin. Yeah, yeah. Have you ever found a treasure map? Or have you ever wanted to find one? What would you do if you found one?
SPEAKER_00I go and go and dig it up.
SPEAKER_03What if it had no X on it?
SPEAKER_00Oh, well, it's not much of a treasure map then, is it?
SPEAKER_03I don't know.
SPEAKER_02What what would you do in any of those situations? I've never found a treasure map, but I do play video games with treasure maps in them. They count. So technically, I actually found treasure today in that game. I'm so proud of you. Thank you. What'd you find? $15 whole dollars. What game is this? Red Dead Redemption 2. I'm a cowboy. It's very fun.
SPEAKER_03Oh, you're gonna love this one then, right?
SPEAKER_00Brittany's a cowboy too.
SPEAKER_02Cowgirl. Thank you. At least get it. Only on his birthdays. Okay, so no ex I'm a I'm intrigued. Well maybe there is an ex. I don't know. Well, there should be if it's a treasure map, as Chris so rightly stated.
SPEAKER_03Right?
unknownAbsolutely.
SPEAKER_03So would you go and and dig it up? Would you tell anybody? Oh, that's a good question.
SPEAKER_00What would you do if you found a bag with a million dollars in? Oh would you turn it in or would you keep it?
SPEAKER_02Am I gonna get in trouble for keeping it?
SPEAKER_00I don't know. Why would someone leave a bag with a hundred you know, a million quid in? Maybe they come up with it. None of my business. Well, yeah. It's mine now.
SPEAKER_03Well, if it was tracked, like you know, DB Cooper's cash was tracked, they know then I'd turn it in. But how would you know until you start spending it? Because oh, they did release saying that they tracked the money. Like if it was known publicly, I'd turn it in, but I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Well, surely once they told you it was tracked, when you turn it in, you're gonna be like, oh so we do know from a very brief mention a few episodes ago that if you find treasure you have 14 days to tell the coroner here. Ah but that is well then it the definition of treasure is one pound notes and a million quid treasure, or are we talking old stuff has to be treasure? I don't know what the definition is. If I found a treasure map that had an X in it, and I thought we could find it, I would get us together.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that'd be so much fun.
SPEAKER_02That'll be a lot of fun. And I would have a metal detector. We'll split whatever we find, but you guys have to so we'd use Brittany with her genealogy and historical knowledge.
SPEAKER_00I thought you were gonna say, well, she's international, she'll get away with it. She can just say she didn't know about the law.
SPEAKER_02We'll use Chris because he's so good at geography. Or he would have me think in this podcast.
SPEAKER_00I know where Aberdeen is, listeners.
SPEAKER_02Um me just, you know, I'm the face of the campaign. Oh, beautiful one. And um our very good friend knew her. Very good friend. Very good. Yeah, snacks. Oh, snacks and drinks. Yeah. And and maybe oh, maybe it would lead us to anywhere where she needs to speak the language. Right. True. And morale, she would be good at that. She would be good at morale. She would be such a good champion. She'd be like cheerleading us the entire way. Love it. While probably complaining about being tired, but yeah, I mean I would too, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03Capricorns, what do you expect?
SPEAKER_00Uh oh yeah, Capricorns.
SPEAKER_02But then I have the Taurus over here who's notoriously lazy.
SPEAKER_00How dare you!
SPEAKER_02And then well, then you've got me who's notoriously Spitfire. So I I think God, what freaking good team. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03I know. Which is what are you? Are you a fire sign? Is that a fire sign? I'm not I don't really know many things about zodiac signs, but I know things about mine. And that was a pure guess on yours.
SPEAKER_02Oh, oh, was it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because you said Spitfire, I was like, oh fire, but I wouldn't have known otherwise. Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. If I hadn't said that, would you have guessed fire?
SPEAKER_03Probably, because I know we're Earth, and then I didn't think you were like a fish, like a water sign. No, no, no. And then what's the other one? Air? Yes. It's like Avatar or something. Wind? Anyway.
SPEAKER_02Anyway.
SPEAKER_03Are we ready?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03On a freezing night in January 1864.
SPEAKER_02Amazing.
SPEAKER_03Sheriff Henry Plummer stood beneath the gallows he had built himself and offered the vigilantes a deal. Oh. Give him a horse and two hours, and he would return with his weight in gold.
SPEAKER_02What?
SPEAKER_03They hanged him anyway. You have a picture of Henry Plummer.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic beard.
SPEAKER_02I always have to say hotter than bango.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I'm a sucker for a man with a beard.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay. No, I would.
SPEAKER_00You would? Yeah, insane.
SPEAKER_02I'm sorry, but that nose is perfect.
SPEAKER_00Good for riding, yeah.
unknownHuh?
SPEAKER_02The nose? You know when you sit on their face, Brittany. I know, I know. I know. Yeah. Yeah, he's okay. He's I think he's the hottest one we've ever seen.
SPEAKER_03Right? Right, yeah. Okay. So what do you think about this? Give him a horse in two hours, and he'd return with his weight in gold, and they hanged him anyway.
SPEAKER_02So at the end of the day, you're giving him a horse. So once he's got the horse, you're not gonna find him.
SPEAKER_03So he's gone. And according to legend, somewhere in the mountains and gulches of Montana, that gold is still waiting to be found.
SPEAKER_00To this day.
SPEAKER_03For more than 160 years, treasure hunters, historians, and storytellers have searched for the hidden fortune of Henry Plummer. Wow. A man remembered as both a respected frontier lawman and one of the most feared outlaws of the American West. Wow. Can you be both at the same time? Yeah. Have you heard of this guy before? Have you heard of this guy before? No. Before I mentioned him.
SPEAKER_00No. If you talk to me about a plumber, I'd assume it was just that, a plumber.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Obviously.
SPEAKER_03Obviously.
SPEAKER_02Is it a plumber with a B? No. I didn't think it was. Two M's. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Depending on who you believe, Plummer was either the ruthless leader of a murderous gang known as the Innocents. Oh. Or the victim of one of the most controversial vigilante executions in frontier history.
SPEAKER_00I mean, he doesn't look like a ruthless murderer. I disagree. You think?
SPEAKER_03I don't know, mate.
SPEAKER_00I think he looks like someone who would like pay someone to kill people for him and then eat the bodies. But um cannibal. Do you not think?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Either way, his death gave rise to one of Montana's most enduring legends.
SPEAKER_02Ooh, it is enduring as well.
SPEAKER_03The story begins in the early 1860s when the discovery of gold transformed the Montana territory. In 1862, rich deposits were found along Grasshopper Creek, where a rough mining camp called Bannock quickly sprang up. The gold was unusually pure and words spread fast. Thousands of miners flooded into the region hoping to strike it rich. Of course they did. You have a couple photos now. You have three photos from Bannock. I could only date the first one to about the 1860s. I think the next two are probably around the same time. And then I found this just yesterday. That is a map, also dated from the 1860s. And when you zoom in, it's really funny, like some of the things that are written.
SPEAKER_00So this town looks a bit like um Ashington.
SPEAKER_03Never been.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's just sort of a mining town that's kind of falling apart.
SPEAKER_03Oh.
SPEAKER_00Do you not think?
SPEAKER_02I've never been. Have you been? To Ashington. Have you been to Ashington, actually? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I've driven through it. No. You don't want to start.
SPEAKER_02Been in a long time.
SPEAKER_00But you can see the mine up there, right? On the second photo. Yes. Right? Is that what that is?
SPEAKER_02Yes. Mm-hmm. This is exactly what Red Dead Redemption looks like, by the way. Really? I was like just there today.
SPEAKER_03Oh.
SPEAKER_02Killed a lot of people for their money.
SPEAKER_03You must have like manifested this case. I know, dude. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02And I'm I'm the kind of video gamer as well where I will go really, really long time not playing anything, and then I'll have like a solid couple of weeks where I can't stop.
SPEAKER_03And Sims, I've not played in over a year. But the thing is, like, what's putting me off is I know I'm gonna have so many updates.
SPEAKER_02That's okay.
SPEAKER_03I know. But I go for it for like a full week of just hardcore Sims and then I don't touch it for a year. Yeah, we do this.
SPEAKER_02I love Sims.
SPEAKER_03That's my only like does that count as a video game?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, of course it does. You're a legit gamer by playing Sims.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. I know all the cheat codes and everything. So do you like my map?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah, great. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03I notice on the map it says Okay, yeah, I know what you're gonna say. I don't know if this is acceptable to say.
SPEAKER_00House where we got the Mexican.
SPEAKER_03It does say that.
SPEAKER_02Ah, yes. Um besties with besties!
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Tacoya place. Yeah. What else do we have? I saw there was a lot of meat shops and bakeries.
SPEAKER_00Also, there seems to be a BS shop.
SPEAKER_03There's two BS shops.
SPEAKER_00Ah. Do we know what that stands for?
SPEAKER_03No idea. French home.
SPEAKER_00Meat shop, grocery, lots of groceries.
SPEAKER_03Chief Justice Edgerton. Glad to point out the stables.
SPEAKER_00To Marysville. Houses all the way down for five miles. That's a lot of houses.
SPEAKER_03Saloon. In the middle, I swear it says Christmas store. It does. Thank you. Yes, Christmas store.
SPEAKER_00Or is it Chris? Chris's mum's store.
SPEAKER_03Chris Mayon store. Chris Mam's.
SPEAKER_00Christmas. Christmas store. George. George Christmas store? Is that what it says?
SPEAKER_03Ah. Could be George, not yes.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03Bowling alley hottie?
SPEAKER_00That's so no, I think it's hotel, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's hotel. Bowling alley. Law office, very important.
SPEAKER_00That's so funny. They had a bowling alley.
SPEAKER_02Thompson's.
SPEAKER_03I don't think that's your like Thompson's. I actually have no idea what that is.
SPEAKER_02You're thinking of Thompson's.
SPEAKER_03Ah, thank you. So I do see an ex. Do you? Because I didn't.
SPEAKER_00We've solved it.
SPEAKER_03That question at the beginning was just like pure fun, had nothing to do with the games.
SPEAKER_02Do we know where this is? Because I think we should go dig up that house in the exit.
SPEAKER_03In the middle of Montana. I think we solved it. I think we solved it.
SPEAKER_00I think it's worth the flight.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right. But along with prospectors came gamblers, drifters, civil war deserters, and criminals. Bannock exploded.
SPEAKER_01Bang!
SPEAKER_03Sorry. Wow. Bannock exploded into a lawless boom town almost overnight where wealth existed not as paper currency, but as gold dust, nuggets, and coins carried along remote trails through the mountains. Those trails quickly became targets.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was gonna so much crime, so much stealing, so much murdering people for what you think might be gold. Half the time it probably isn't.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it's still like that to this day. Is it? Yeah, America in general.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for that. This is what I'm led to believe by the city. Very important.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Stagecoaches and freight wagons moving between Bannock and Virginia City were forced through isolated passes where robberies and disappearances became increasingly common. By late 1863, fear had spread among the mining camps. According to some estimates, more than 120 travelers and miners had been killed, and large amounts of gold had been stolen in a matter of months, the equivalent to six million dollars today.
SPEAKER_02I'm not surprised in the slightest.
SPEAKER_03No, not at all. And suspicion increasingly centered on one man. One? Who do you think? Plummer. Plummer.
SPEAKER_00Oh shit.
SPEAKER_03Henry Plummer had arrived in the West years earlier. Born in Maine around 1832, he traveled to California during the Gold Rush at just 19. Intelligent, charismatic, and ambitious, Plummer quickly built a respectable life for himself.
SPEAKER_00See this again. Isn't it wild that people who were like 18, 19 were just moving to another state making a life for themselves? Like what were we doing at 18?
SPEAKER_03You couldn't get farther away in the US. So Maine is like all the way northeast, touches Canada. All the way to California. Like that's insane at 19. And he went, I don't think you went with anyone with this family. I don't know if he went by himself, but context though.
SPEAKER_02I mean, these are the days where you need to chase the opportunities. Like nothing is given to you at all. Like if you need dinner, you slaughter it yourself and cook it yourself. Like and I just know this from my Red Dead Redemption days in the output. She's a real cowgirl.
SPEAKER_03She is.
SPEAKER_00But at the same time, this is like the Victorian era.
SPEAKER_03It's not like it's 1860s, but think it's still he's going. So in Maine, right, maybe it Maine is more settled at this point. But California, people went out there because of the gold rush. I think it's in it was in 1849. So that's only I mean, he would have been 17, so let's say he went out in 51. Like it's still developing. There's nothing out there. These are territories, they're not even states. Like you have the Native Americans who are living there, but that's a completely different lifestyle than what these people are used to.
SPEAKER_02Love it.
SPEAKER_03Should I take my bit out about killing your own dinner?
SPEAKER_02Do I sound stupid? No.
SPEAKER_00No. I mean, I just point out there are grocery stores on that map.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you're right. Okay. True. Yeah. Yeah. But not like fast food.
SPEAKER_03Unless it counts well, it could have been the BS shop. We still know it was that we're going to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00Hang on a second. Wasn't California part of Mexico at that point?
SPEAKER_03I don't know if it was at that point.
SPEAKER_02I had no idea they were next to each other.
SPEAKER_00Mexico and California.
SPEAKER_02I thought Tesco Tesco.
SPEAKER_00For fuck's sake.
SPEAKER_03Tex-Mex, right? Oh, that was in the 1840s. Okay, so this was just after. Yes.
SPEAKER_00So maybe there were some interloping Mexicans.
SPEAKER_03Maybe.
SPEAKER_00Well, maybe that's fair enough then. Maybe that wasn't just a random link lynching.
SPEAKER_03Maybe it was actually a How do we know they were lynching?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they mean Mexican.
SPEAKER_03Within only a few years, he owned a ranch, a bakery, and mining interests around Nevada City, California. He was elected marshal and gained a good reputation, but violence followed him. Any guesses on what this violence is?
SPEAKER_02Or was he just holding wagons up and shooting them, saying he was a policeman and you have to get out and this is before he moved to Montana though.
SPEAKER_03Oh, this is in Maine? No, sorry, this is still in California. So he goes from Maine to California to Montana.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, so this is in California? Yes.
SPEAKER_00Was it like highwayman stuff then?
SPEAKER_03Is that your is that your guess?
SPEAKER_00Well, I guess. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03On September 26, 1857, Plummer shot and killed John Vedder. According to Plummer's supporters, he had been helping Lucy Vedder escape what was described as an abusive marriage. Okay.
SPEAKER_00So he was a feminist.
SPEAKER_03Plummer insisted he acted in self-defense. A jury disagreed and convicted him of second-degree murder.
SPEAKER_02Oh.
SPEAKER_03He successfully appealed the verdict and won a new trial, but was convicted again and sentenced to ten years in San Quentin prison.
SPEAKER_02Oh shit. San Quintin Tarantino.
SPEAKER_03You have a picture of that prison. Yes.
SPEAKER_00So glad to go and drop my point for that.
SPEAKER_03What were you gonna say?
SPEAKER_02No, no.
SPEAKER_00The moment is fast.
SPEAKER_03That dates from about the 1850s, 1860s-ish.
SPEAKER_02That is a really intimidating looking building. Right?
SPEAKER_03I would think it was a factory, but I've been told by the internet that that is a prison. It looks like an old workhouse or something, doesn't it? It does say state prison on the side.
SPEAKER_00Does say that.
SPEAKER_03In August 1859, two years after the killing, supporters petitioned the governor for a pardon, citing Plummer's previous civic service, good reputation, and deteriorating health. At the time he was suffering from tuberculosis, a disease that was effectively incurable. That's all we hear about tuberculosis. He I don't know what happened with that. Vaccine was invented at some point, but I mean with him, no idea.
SPEAKER_00Not in 1850, though.
SPEAKER_03Well, at some point in like the 1900s, yes. But I'm saying personally with Plummer.
SPEAKER_00Right. He got better. He must have. Nice. Good for him.
SPEAKER_03Misdiagnosed. Maybe he prayed. Maybe. That works. That does work. The governor ultimately granted the pardon, allowing Plummer to be released after serving only a fraction of his sentence. After leaving prison, Plummer drifted through the Western Territories, moving between mining towns across Idaho and the Pacific Northwest. It was a world of gamblers, prospectors, and fugitives, where violence was common and law enforcement was limited. You have a map just kind of for like perspective. Those are the territories, so it's all basically from like the center of the US, westward. Those are like modern state lines, not territory lines at the time. There you go, just for context. So he was over in California and he makes his way west, kind of going northwest, Idaho, and then eastward into Montana.
SPEAKER_00That's quite a lot of territory to cover though.
SPEAKER_03Right?
SPEAKER_00Like I if you're riding a horse, how far can you travel in a day? Like I wonder continuously for like.
SPEAKER_03And I don't know. Like this could be out here, out there, and I just haven't like read it. I don't know if he went alone. I don't know if he went with other people, if there's kind of like because there's think like all these mining camps are all over, so there's probably groups of people moving between them all the time. I don't know. But yeah, it's a lot of land to cover. Some accounts place him in repeated violent confrontations, while others describe him simply as one of many drifters trying to survive in unstable towns. It is said that he traveled through the Washington Territory during another gold rush and became involved in further disputes and gunfights that added to his growing notoriety. By the time he made his way to Montana, his reputation was clouded by rumor. While traveling near Fort Benton, he met James Vale, who was recruiting men to help protect a mission settlement near the Sun River. With no other options for passage, Plummer agreed to join them. Among those at the settlement was Jack Cleveland, a horse trader who had known Plummer in California. While there, both men became connected to Electa Bryan, Vale's sister-in-law. Plummer won her affection and the two became engaged. The timing seemed promising. Gold had recently been discovered at Bannock, and Plummer believed he could earn enough money there to build a future for himself and Alecta.
SPEAKER_02Lovely.
SPEAKER_03They headed for the mining camp with Cleveland following behind.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03However, the friendship between the two men soon deteriorated. Did he fancy Alecta too? In January of 1863, Cleveland, reportedly jealous of Plummer's relationship with Alecta, forced a confrontation inside a crowded saloon. Witnesses later agreed that when the fight ended and Cleveland lay dead, Plummer had acted in self-defense.
SPEAKER_02Again? He was not convicted. Coincidence? Right? Bit weird. How many times does that have to happen before you're the problem?
SPEAKER_03Right. Right. I got to that point. I was like, okay, this explains a lot. Okay. This is just one example of how the town was desperately in need of order. Lawlessness was rampant, and residents wanted a strong sheriff. Despite his past, Plummer was well liked. Witnesses described him as polite, handsome, educated, and unusually refined for a frontier mining camp.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say sounds a lot like me.
SPEAKER_03Does it? Unusually refined. Polite?
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so the citizens elected him sheriff in May 1863. Alright. To many people, Henry Plummer looks like the answer to the town's problems. Did he? According to local historian Dick Pace, Plummer was a very pleasant-looking individual. He was the only man in Bannock that always tipped his hat to a lady when he saw her on the street.
SPEAKER_02How many times have you got to do that in a day if he's just a lot of ladies? No.
SPEAKER_00Some were just wenches.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. You could call him the consummate con man of his day. So he was able to con people into thinking he was a competent man to be the sheriff. And of course, he knew that being a sheriff would give him a perfect cover.
SPEAKER_00Yep. So these people elected him as the sheriff, despite him being like a major criminal. Love it.
SPEAKER_03Because he was hot. Yeah. Yeah. And tipped his hat.
SPEAKER_00It's a good job that never happens anymore.
SPEAKER_03Almost immediately after being elected, rumors of organized road agents began to circulate. Accounts of robberies and killings became entangled with claims of a coordinated criminal network called the Innocents, operating across the region, though the true extent and structure of the group remains heavily disputed. The group allegedly operated from a base known as Rattlesnake Ranch, located roughly twelve miles from Virginia City.
SPEAKER_00I swear these place names are made up. That's such a crazy. Well, yeah, I guess.
SPEAKER_03You have another map. I put this in before I found the previous one. So that way, that's why this one is so like zoomed out. But essentially, if you zoom in, you can see Bannock, and then to the right, that pin is Virginia City. In total, they are 83 miles apart for context.
SPEAKER_00That's not far.
SPEAKER_03Originally, when I did this, I just typed in Virginia City and it popped up was somewhere in Nevada and it was 12 hours driving today. And I was like, is this it? This can't be it. Like I had to go and I was like, is there a Virginia City, Montana? It's like, oh yeah, okay, this actually makes a lot more sense.
SPEAKER_02So the idea is that he's been elected sheriff and then he's got all his criminal friends together to kill and rob. Because he probably got like a bunch of information as well as being sheriff, and then he's trusted as well, and he just knows everything. So he's like, right, guys, go and yeah, go and do your worst. Okay. And no one's gonna s exp suspect him as the front man because he's the sheriff. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00What does the sheriff do? Are they like head policemen or are they in charge of prosecuting?
SPEAKER_03No, like police.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So if he doesn't arrest anyone, they'll just get away with it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I don't know. If he's choosing who he's arresting. I think so. Okay. And he's not gonna arrest his own mates. Mm-mm. So yeah, that's quite a good little situation.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02Smart.
SPEAKER_03At its peak, the organization was said to include around 100 agents spread throughout the Montana territory. Some worked as spies in saloons, gambling halls, freight companies, and mining offices, gathering information about gold shipments and wealthy travelers.
SPEAKER_00I would love that job. I'd be a great spy.
SPEAKER_03Right?
SPEAKER_00I would love to just chill in a gambling hall. Right? Or a saloon. That'd be so good. Oh, why don't we live in the 1850s? It'd be great. I think we'd all die in tuberculosis. So that's okay.
SPEAKER_03You with you do the stoning.
SPEAKER_00I'd be the handsome sheriff.
SPEAKER_02By the way, your to be wife is also quite opinionated and vocal.
SPEAKER_03I was gonna say, I'd be burned as well. You kidding me? They burned everyone with green eyes. Oh, did they? Well, at least in Salem. Salem which well, maybe not in Salem actually. Why are your eyes, Chris? Blue.
SPEAKER_02Are they? They're quite a dark.
SPEAKER_03They're dark blue, yeah, they're very pretty. Interesting. Yeah, I do say so. I like them. Anyway. Using secret passwords and signs, the gang was able to coordinate the robberies and killings.
SPEAKER_00Do we know what that gang's?
SPEAKER_03Yes, but I did include it in. It was okay, so I don't know if it was a sign, but it was something like three seven like three dash seven dash seven dash three seven seven seven dash between the numbers. No one knows what it means.
SPEAKER_00Maybe it's coordinates. Maybe it's actually L-L-L.
SPEAKER_03I doubt it.
SPEAKER_00It's lower left Louisiana, and that's where they buried the gold.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Seven three seven seven seven.
SPEAKER_00Oh, three, seven, seven, seven. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Seven three seven seven seven.
SPEAKER_03No, no. Three. Three. Okay. No, start over. Start over. Three, seven, seven, seven. No one knows what it means. And well, how would they use this? They don't know. I didn't actually write this part down. They would write it to each other, or sign it to each other, or they would say it to each other. Maybe tattooed. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_00A tattoo.
SPEAKER_03I don't know. But it was pretty interesting.
SPEAKER_00That is pretty interesting.
SPEAKER_03And as sheriff, Plummer knew exactly when gold shipments would travel between Bannock and Virginia City. You now have a fun little graphic of a highway robbery.
SPEAKER_00That's cute. Why is he pointing his gun at his Oh, he's got two guns.
SPEAKER_03So that this was like a f what This isn't like a re uh it's just like an artist's interpretation. That's all it is. But it's a fun little thing after win. Yeah, it look makes sense to me.
SPEAKER_02What's your issue?
SPEAKER_00Well, I was thinking, why do they like leave the people alive? Like you're in the Wild West.
SPEAKER_03They usually didn't Ah, okay, gotcha.
SPEAKER_00Like I'm thinking, what's the point in wearing the mask if they're gonna kill them?
SPEAKER_03I yeah, they usually killed them. Oh, we're going into that now. That's good.
SPEAKER_02The mask is to just intimidate them, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03In October 1863, merchant Lloyd Magruder was murdered alongside four companions while transporting thousands of dollars in gold dust.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, like you would have to be paid at this point so much to do this, like traveling with all that gold. Like, cause you know you're a target.
SPEAKER_00But there's always gonna be people out there that would risk everything to get some cash. Yeah. It's a wild west, my dude.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you're right. In another robbery, armed agents stopped a stagecoach and stole nearly $3,000 in gold. That was $3,000 at the time. I didn't do the conversion of what it is now.
SPEAKER_00A lot.
SPEAKER_03A lot.
SPEAKER_00It's probably a lot.
SPEAKER_03Other miners narrowly escaped attacks after spotting armed men watching their camps from the hills.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, you'd be terrified.
SPEAKER_00Right? I mean, you'd be terrified even if you were driving through and you saw some people in the hills watching you. Imagine you can't actually run away.
SPEAKER_02Why didn't people start arming themselves, or did they?
SPEAKER_03I think they started to. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Were you allowed to just oh yeah. Well, yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_03There's no law, as we've clearly found out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's America for you.
SPEAKER_03Watch it. One teenager claimed he recognized Sheriff Plummer himself among a group of armed agents near Horse Prairie.
SPEAKER_00Oh shit, so he was involved himself. He wasn't just like sending his goons.
SPEAKER_03According to some eyewitnesses.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03Though widely disputed, the accusation further damaged his reputation, and the violence kept escalating. The mining camps existed in a legal vacuum, and this pattern was repeated across much of the American West. Settlers called on Washington for greater law enforcement and protection, but the Civil War, which was happening at the same time, consumed the federal government's attention. So basically they were like, don't really care about the West.
SPEAKER_01Got it.
SPEAKER_03In Montana, formal law enforcement remained scarce and often ineffective. Frustrated residents began taking matters into their own hands.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_03Their turning point came in December 1863. A young Dutch immigrant named Nicholas Tybolt was murdered, and suspicion quickly fell on a notorious road agent named George Ives. From December 19th to December 21st, hundreds of miners gathered in Virginia City for a public trial conducted by a miners court. Ooh. The proceedings lasted three days and attracted spectators from across the region.
SPEAKER_00Sorry, what is a miners' court?
SPEAKER_03So basically they just created their own. Like they were sick of waiting on the government and they got nothing.
SPEAKER_00Like a vigilante kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03Well, hence the vigilantes at the beginning, I assume. Yep. Okay. Exactly. Keep up there, Christopher. God. Men. Ives was convicted and hanged on December 21st, 1863. The trial convinced many residents that a larger criminal organization was operating throughout the territory. The committee quickly established its own system of what became known as mountain justice.
SPEAKER_02Which is Oh, that sounds so scary.
SPEAKER_03Basically, what it is. So it says, um, it says, I wrote this. Suspects were often arrested, questioned, and subjected to makeshift trials before being either banished from the territory or sentenced to death.
SPEAKER_02Jeez. I mean, if you're a vigilante group, I get banishing, but the death one.
SPEAKER_00There must have been so many miscarriages of justice as well.
SPEAKER_02Oh, unbelievably so, yeah, like, oh god.
SPEAKER_03According to historian Dick Pace, they formed a posse, and during the next six weeks, the vigilantes were picking people up, giving them a trial. Oh no. And we know they hanged about 22 men at least.
SPEAKER_00Wow. But what was the sheriff doing about this? Surely he should be keeping like law and order, or is he like tacitly supporting them?
SPEAKER_03I don't so Plummer was the sheriff in Bannock.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03And later in the story, I don't know, I think maybe he was a sheriff somewhere else in another town. Maybe it was I I don't know. But this is not just the town, like it's the entire region, and Virginia City is bigger than Bannock. So I think in a way, like he was just overpowered. And this essentially, if you remember when I first started this, he was hanged in January of 84, and this only started in December of 83. So he really didn't have time to do anything.
SPEAKER_01I see.
SPEAKER_03It is still not known how many others were banished or hanged, but the campaign reshaped the territory sense of justice.
SPEAKER_02Can I ask a quick question? If I don't ask it now, I'm gonna forget. How do we know about the 22 hang-ins? Were they recording them as they were doing them?
SPEAKER_03Wow. We kind of touch on that very, very briefly at the end, but yes. That's cool.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's crazy, isn't it? Among those accused and arrested was Erastus Red Jaeger, who reportedly implicated Henry Plummer as the leader of the alleged innocence gang. Whether Jaeger told the truth or simply tried to save himself remains debated, but his confession sealed Plummer's fate. Really? Supporters of the vigilantes pointed to one fact. After the arrests, stagecoach robberies and violent crime sharply declined. To many residents, that was proof enough that the committee had targeted the right men. You can now see a picture of the original jail in Bannock where some of these uh people were held. That's the original! That's amazing. I know. That's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00Looks like our shed.
SPEAKER_03It really does. Without the windows, just add another door.
SPEAKER_00That's really cool. Imagine sitting in there thinking, oh fuck. I mean, you could just scrape your way out the wall, couldn't you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was wood. On January 10th, 1864, vigilantes arrested Henry Plummer, along with his deputies, Buck Stinson and Ned Ray.
SPEAKER_02They'll have been absolutely shitting themselves.
SPEAKER_00Devaz.
SPEAKER_02Road. I just love with the the glee that you say it and how you can't help yourself but giggle after.
SPEAKER_03There was no trial, no defense, no appeal.
SPEAKER_02Oh god.
SPEAKER_00I mean it sounds like he was guilty, so fair enough.
SPEAKER_03They were marched to the gallows in Bannock, and that's a picture of the original gallows.
SPEAKER_00So they weren't the most handy people in the world then.
SPEAKER_03Mm-mm. It's quite tilted. I don't know when that was like I don't know when that photo was taken. It's definitely old.
SPEAKER_00It looks like two fence posts and like a crossbar on the top.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, that's really all you needed. How did they get up there? Uh they probably had like um no, like probably like a little, not like a step stool, but like they probably had like wooden step stool.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, terrifying.
SPEAKER_03Until the end, Plummer maintained his innocence.
SPEAKER_02Well, he would.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. He definitely did all of this. But according to legend, as the noose was placed around his neck, he offered one final bargain.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03A horse and two hours in exchange for his weight in gold. The offer was refused.
SPEAKER_02I bet he did know where that was. I bet that is absolutely out there.
SPEAKER_00Do you think he'd have come back though? No. You think it'd have been out there?
SPEAKER_03I think he would have just fled.
SPEAKER_00Fair.
SPEAKER_03Of course he would have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you don't have any um any reason to come back, do you?
SPEAKER_03No, absolutely not. You change your name, go to like Texas or something, they have no idea who you are.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02Just the fact that he thought of it though makes me think it's probably there.
SPEAKER_00Could he have got into Texas without a Tesco club card?
SPEAKER_03Well, considering we don't have Tesco, that's comedy goals bringing that background. According to some accounts, Plummer's final words were give me a high drop, boys.
SPEAKER_00Oh man, iconic.
SPEAKER_03Plummer, only 32 years old, was hanged alongside his deputies. Oh my gosh. Their bodies reportedly remained suspended overnight in freezing temperatures before being buried in shallow graves near what would become known as Hangman's Gulch. And with Plummer died the secret of the gold. Or at least that's the legend. In the years following Plummer's death, stories about his fate and burial began to take on a life of their own. Like many figures of the frontier, he became the subject of competing legends that blurred the line between fact and folklore. His wife reportedly believed in his innocence until her death. Meanwhile, the narrative of Plummer as the mastermind of a vast criminal organization began to face increasing scrutiny from later historians. Many pointed out that much of the original account of the road agents came from vigilante-era publications, particularly those written or influenced by individuals aligned with the Montana Vigilante Committee. Some argue the scale and organization of the alleged gang were greatly exaggerated, and that the vigilantes played a major role in shaping the historical record.
SPEAKER_02There's a bit, I think there's a bit of truth in that as well, because even just earlier with the way you were describing it, I was thinking like, how's anybody like surviving, or like how is anything getting done, or like so yeah, maybe there was a bit of hyperbole there.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. The truth of what happened in Montana remains one of the most debated chapters of frontier history. Almost immediately, rumor spread that Plummer and the road agents had hidden caches of stolen gold throughout the mountains. I mean they definitely did. Right? They must have.
SPEAKER_00Where else would you store your gold?
SPEAKER_03Not in the bank. Right?
SPEAKER_00I mean it's not like you can just say, oh yeah, surprisingly, I've got three thousand pounds worth of gold dust.
SPEAKER_03Exactly.
SPEAKER_00What do you do with it?
SPEAKER_03Stories emerged of buried treasure, secret stashes, and lost loot still waiting to be found between Bannock and Virginia City. One legend tells of mysterious men in the early 1900s arriving in the town of Ennis with a heavy box. They asked a local store owner if they could store it overnight in the vault. One of the men reportedly stood guard over it with a shotgun all night long. By morning, both men had disappeared without explanation. Locals immediately suspected they had uncovered part of Plummer's lost treasure, but no proof ever surfaced. Over the decades, treasure hunters have continued to search the region using everything from shovels to modern scanning equipment, but nothing has ever been proven. Some believe the gold was divided and hidden in multiple locations. Others believe it may have never existed at all. I think it did. Me too. Much of what people believe about Henry Plummer and the road agents comes from a single source. In 1865, Thomas Dimsdale began publishing a series of articles in the Montana Post, chronicling the Vigilantes and their campaign. So this was like a year after Plummer died. Those articles were later expanded into the Vigilantes of Montana or Popular Justice in the Rocky Mountains, published in 1866 and often regarded as the first book published in Montana. Dimsdale's account helped shape the popular image of Plummer as the mastermind and the vigilantes as frontier heroes, delivering justice where law had failed. Freight hauler and merchant Alexander Topens had lived in Bannock during the period, later wrote in his autobiography, I don't think they made any mistake in hanging anybody. The only mistake they made was about 50% of those whom they merely banished should have been hung instead.
SPEAKER_02Huh. Uh-huh. Wow.
SPEAKER_03His view reflected the opinions of many settlers who believe the vigilantes had saved the mining camps from lawlessness and violence.
SPEAKER_02And did they? Did the lawlessness stop? No, it didn't. It didn't. To me, it just sounds like turf walls and gangs. Like one gang took out another gang. That's like because they if they know that they've just taken the head off one of the biggest criminal gangs, they're just gonna like that high. Yeah, and and take over the missing gap. Like they're just do you know what I mean? Like I something just niggling tells me that these weren't Robin Hood type people.
SPEAKER_03They were maybe Plummer was. Yeah, maybe Plummer was. The legend only grew stronger as later historians began questioning whether Henry Plummer was guilty at all.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I think he was.
SPEAKER_03Plummer never received a trial. I think he was too. There was almost no fiscal evidence directly linking him to the robberies. Many accusations came from confessions extracted from terrified prisoners already facing execution. Some historians pointed out that robberies continued even after Plummer and the gang members were dead. Well, they they would. They would. Like I felt silly writing that, but I I you know I want to show both sides. So of course they would. Someone's gonna fill the vacuum, you know.
SPEAKER_00Like there's loads of unprotected carriages going around.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_00At this you know, at the same time, I can see how being a sheriff at the age of like what 30 that's a lot of responsibility and that's a lot of information that's coming to you. I I can see why someone who wasn't up for doing that role would use that information in a bad way, you know? It's a lot of temptation when you know there's three thousand pounds of worth of gold traveling under your nose.
SPEAKER_02But no. I mean, I do think he was doing that.
SPEAKER_03I I agree with you. Political tensions may have also played a role. Plummer was a self-described Democrat who publicly supported the rule of law and opposed vigilanteism. He tended to associate with miners, laborers, and ordinary wage earners, while many of the territory's most influential Republicans were wealthy merchants and businessmen. During the Civil War era, political divisions between Democrats and Republicans were often bitter and personal. Newspapers openly attacked political opponents, accusations of disloyalty were common, and violence between rival factions was not unheard of. Some modern historians argue that Plummer may have been the victim of a politically motivated execution. Others point to another suspicious detail. Vigilante policy often included confiscating the assets of those they executed, supposedly to cover the costs of persecu of prosecution and burial. Plummer was known to own mining interests and was considered relatively wealthy. Yet there is little surviving documentation showing exactly what became of his estate after his death. I don't know if that's just because it was like 160 years ago, or if they just didn't record it, or if it was suspicious. Like genuinely, I'm so torn. Is that just, I guess, from doing genealogy, like I know there's gaps in records due to them over time being destroyed purposefully or not, or did they just never record it? I I don't know. And they didn't look.
SPEAKER_02Would it just go to his wife?
SPEAKER_03Ah, so I didn't include this. I had it in originally, but I took it out. His wife left him. At some point, though they were technically still married, she left him and moved east. Um I that's all I know. I'd never looked further into her at all.
SPEAKER_02Um maybe smelled that something was gonna kick off soon. Although you said she did say he was innocent until she died. When did she die? I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I didn't look it up because I think it was by 61 or 62 they had settled in Bannock. I think it was 62, and then he died in January of 64.
SPEAKER_00Maybe she was the mastermind. Maybe she got out of there and was like and dubbed him in.
SPEAKER_03I hadn't thought of that.
SPEAKER_02That'd be during the vigilante.
SPEAKER_00Why does it always have to be about sex with YouTube?
SPEAKER_03In 1993, more than a century after his execution, Henry Plummer finally received something resembling a trial. In Virginia City, an historical reenactment organized by local students staged a mock retrial using surviving historical evidence. The jury deadlocked 6-6, and it resulted in a mistrial. Wow. Even in death, nobody could decide if Henry Plummer was innocent or guilty. Today, Bannock stands as a ghost town preserved inside Bannock State Park. Weathered wooden buildings still line the dusty streets, and the old jail remains standing. A replica gallows overlooks Hangman's Gulch, where Plummer and his deputies died on that freezing January night. God. And somewhere beyond those hills, hidden gold may still rest beneath the Montana wilderness. You have quite a few photos. I think it's the last five or six photos. That is lit that is the town of Bannock still standing 160 years later in Bannock State Park. Oh my god. The only replica is the gallows. Everything in the game. Can you go there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I need to be.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it's like beamish. It's eight bucks. And it's like, I'd pay that.
SPEAKER_00Eight bucks? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Are you kidding me? You get the whole state park and a ghost town.
SPEAKER_00Isn't Mexican too?
SPEAKER_03I read if you camp, it's free entry. Oh. I'm sorry, can we do this? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I've never been to Montana.
SPEAKER_02We can take us to America because she can speak the language.
SPEAKER_00Amazing.
SPEAKER_03Yes, please ignore them. I'm so sorry they didn't tip you. Take my $50.
SPEAKER_02And just constantly walking around behind us, just apologizing.
SPEAKER_03Sorry, sorry, ignore them. They're English. Please, like, they don't know manners.
SPEAKER_00And wait, so do all of you have to be camped to get in for free, or?
SPEAKER_03They'll never know.
SPEAKER_02I'm wondering if some of Red Dead Redemption was based on this story. It could have been. I wonder if I get to a storyline where like find the missing gold or plant the missing gold or something.
SPEAKER_03I mean, he's not the only one. There's like I chose one story. There's so many stories out there about missing treasure.
SPEAKER_00One day you're gonna finish that game. I swear every time we've been around to your house, it's been like on the on the PlayStation.
SPEAKER_02Has it? It's it's unfinishable.
SPEAKER_00Is it unfinishedable? Yeah, well yeah, it's like huge.
SPEAKER_02It's like Sims. Like you just play always things to find. I've got like 12 dinosaur bones.
SPEAKER_00There are dinosaurs in the world.
SPEAKER_02I've never played the game, but that's so cool. Bones.
SPEAKER_03Bones.
SPEAKER_02An archaeologist has asked me to find the bones.
SPEAKER_03I am that archaeologist.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And I think it's like a 50 mile square map, so I've got a lot of time to bones to find.
SPEAKER_00Brittany can actually trace our ancestry back to Tyrannosaurus Rex.
SPEAKER_02That makes the little arms make loads of sense now. Right?
SPEAKER_03But yeah, how cool. That's really cool.
SPEAKER_00I had no idea it was still like See, I thought that was just a regular American high street.
SPEAKER_03Ha ha ha. Yeah, we don't call it high street, we call it Main Street. Oh, sorry. Even still, you're very rare to find that nowadays. Treasure hunters continue searching old mines, caves, creek beds, and abandoned trails. Television crews have repelled into caverns, scanned hillsides, dredged lakes, and blasted open forgotten mineshafts looking for evidence of the lost gold. So far, nobody has proven they found it. Maybe Henry Plummer truly was the mastermind behind one of the deadliest outlaw gangs in frontier history. Maybe he buried a fortune stolen from murdered miners somewhere between Bannock and Virginia City. Or maybe the entire legend was born from fear, greed, politics, and frontier paranoia. Nah, I don't I think there's truth in what he said. But the legend survives. And in Montana, the story of Plummer's Gold still refuses to stay buried.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00Amazing. Do you like it?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I had a lot of fun doing that one. I think it's already been found and just dishes.
SPEAKER_00You wouldn't feel about it, would you? You just quietly take it down, melt it up.
SPEAKER_03I wonder, like the men who discovered it in the 1900s, sorry, not discovered it, had a box of something. Obviously, it could absolutely be nothing, but I don't think anyone's really like looked into it because there's nothing to look into. Like there's no documents, it's just eyewitness accounts.
SPEAKER_00It'd have to be a lot for you to stay up all night with a shotgun when it's already in a bank's vault.
SPEAKER_03Right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That that's where I'm like, hmm. I'm not saying it's Plummer's gold.
SPEAKER_00It's not gonna be like used underwear, is it?
SPEAKER_03It's gonna be some something good, like rubies and diamonds.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're true. How do you think we paid for this place?
SPEAKER_03You not me. So what do you guys think? Okay, we have two questions here. One, do you think Plummer was guilty or innocent? Was he in charge of that or was he just a sheriff? And two, did he ever bury gold? Is it still there? Has it been found? Did he not do it at all?
SPEAKER_02He did it, he was part of the criminal gang, he was the headpin, they got the right guy, he did have the gold, it definitely was somewhere, it has since been found and just has ended up here, there, and everywhere over hundreds of years. I agree.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree as well.
SPEAKER_03Sorry, what JCB uh diggers like a John Deere Sure.
SPEAKER_00An excavator. Yeah, I think.
SPEAKER_03So well back then now, because I watched, sorry, I watched Expedition Unknown and they used LIDAR, which is maybe they didn't in this one. They use LIDAR in a lot of a second. What's LIDAR? It's basically like this thing you like run over the ground, it shoots lasers into the ground, it like maps out of anything like big, like an anomaly. Yeah. Wow. You should watch Expedition Unknown. Alright.
SPEAKER_00But like LIDAR in general, though, there is a like a Google Maps layer you can look at. Oh, can you?
SPEAKER_02Let's match that map with the X on top of Google. Yes, and see if anything comes up.
SPEAKER_00That'd be cool.
SPEAKER_02That'll be so cool. So, or imagine he's found a cave, he's put the gold, earthquake, stone falls over it. You're never gonna know. You're never gonna know.
SPEAKER_00So they did explore a cave in that episode, right?
SPEAKER_02I'm sure yeah. There's so many caves. Right? Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's so cool.
SPEAKER_00I like that theory.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I'll read my sources. Unsolved.com, history.com, true West magazine. Don't know how um accurate that is, but I thought I'd throw it in there. Distinctly Montana.com.
SPEAKER_02So distinct.
SPEAKER_03Find a grave. Legendsofamerica.com, Expedition Unknown, and Rare GoldNuggets.com. Love it. It was a fun one. And that's it for you.
SPEAKER_02Tune in next week for a real good tale.