Red Herrings
Where history gets messy and the law gets loud.
Brittany and Joccoaa take turns serving up shocking crimes and unforgettable legal battles. One brings the past, the other brings the courtroom — and together, they bring the chaos.
It’s smart, a little unhinged, and full of twists you won’t see coming.
Red Herrings
A... Cake ?
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Welcome to Red Herrings!
This week, Joccoaa starts some fights about cakes...
Hosted by: Brittany Warren & Joccoaa Gray
Sound Engineer & Co-host: Christopher Brown
Edited by: Joccoaa Gray
If you would like to get in touch, please contact us at redherringspod@gmail.com.
Sources:
HMRC Food Products VAT notice 701/14
Wikipedia
Treats were supplied by LIDL
Welcome to Red Herrings. I'm Jacoa, Master's student in law and human rights, host of True Crime Club Newcastle, and creator of True Crime Forum Newcastle.
SPEAKER_05Hi, I'm Brittany. I have two degrees in history and 15 years experience in genealogy. We're the red herrings.
SPEAKER_07Well, well, well. What do we have here? Two red herrings and the catch of the day. Don't forget about me.
SPEAKER_00Hi, Chris! We're the red herrings.
SPEAKER_07And Chris.
SPEAKER_04Are we ready? I'm so ready.
SPEAKER_00Okay, we are gonna have some fun tonight. Let's go.
SPEAKER_07I love it. Don't we always have fun?
SPEAKER_04Yes. I was gonna say, we have neon blue cocktails. We're already having fun.
SPEAKER_00That's true, but tonight is designed for fun. So I should say once again we have a very special guest this episode, Nuha. Hello. Woo woo! First today, we are gonna have a little lesson on VAT. Now that sounds really boring.
SPEAKER_07I'm so excited. I've been waiting for the tax episode.
SPEAKER_00I never understand this.
SPEAKER_04I think you're so happy about this. It's sad.
SPEAKER_00It sounds boring. I promise it won't be. I trust you. Now listen carefully because you will be drawing from what you learn throughout the episode. Oh no. So God. What is VAT? Does anyone yes tax? Does anyone know what it stands for?
SPEAKER_04Vehicular. Yeah, I think yeah. No.
SPEAKER_07Value added tax.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Vehicle that sounded cooler, I'm sorry. Right? Vehicular tax. Transport tax. Yeah, I like that.
SPEAKER_00So it is tax added to most products and services that are sold. There are three different rates of VAT that can be added to products. Mostly you'll find a VAT of 20%, but there are also reduced rates, which is 5%, and there are zero-rated products, which is 0%. So not everything you purchase will have VAT added onto it. Some goods and services are exempt. Today we will be looking specifically at food products. Yay. Yay. Chris, do you know what we're doing today?
SPEAKER_07Is it the pasty tax? Nope. Oh.
SPEAKER_02Pastety tax.
SPEAKER_00What's that?
SPEAKER_07Okay, well, there was a it was a thing that's it's why when you go to certain um places like Greg's, you get charged more if you sit in and eat it, eat things rather than take out and eat it. It's a bit bullshit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this is lood.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, it's something to do with whether it was warmed up on the premises or if it was cooked off the premises and warmed up is a bit it's a bit stupid. It got yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, if you think that's a bit stupid.
SPEAKER_07Love it.
SPEAKER_00Oh dear.
SPEAKER_07Oh I know, I know what it is. I know what it is.
SPEAKER_04What is it? Can you say? No, not yet. Okay, don't say.
SPEAKER_00Mouth it to me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, I heard that. That's not mouthing, Chris. She has excellent hearing. It's actually scary.
SPEAKER_07Oh god, that's terrible.
SPEAKER_00Because that was mouthing, like he didn't say a thing. Because my eyesight is really bad, so like the hearing is really okay.
SPEAKER_04Have to compensate somehow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So for those who aren't sure, if a product has the standard rate of V80, what it means is that the consumer will be paying a 20% VAT on that product. So let's say you have a can of Red Bull, it's £1. VAT adds 20%, so you pay £1.20. But if a product is zero rated, it means that the cost isn't passed on to the consumer so the company can make their products cheaper and remain competitive. Here are the you some of the UK foods that fall into the zero rate allowance according to the Food Products VAT guidance on the government website. We have meats, fish, fruit and veg, herbs and spices, juice, cereals, nuts, canned and frozen food other than ice cream, chilled and frozen ready meals, and cold sandwiches. They tax ice cream. Yeah. Not a cool at all.
SPEAKER_02But what's the criteria whether like they tax something or not tuck something?
SPEAKER_00So we'll find out some, but it's it it's quite specific throughout. So yeah, I mean it's like how long is a piece of string? Like there could be a million reasons why or why not.
SPEAKER_07Basically they make it up as they go along.
SPEAKER_00It may seem so.
SPEAKER_07Also, the ready meal thing is bullshit. Like, I get fresh food because you want to incentivize people to cook and stuff, right?
SPEAKER_00But like Do you? I don't cook.
SPEAKER_07You want to incentivize people to you don't want to incentivize people to buy like ready meals are probably not that great for you, right?
SPEAKER_00I guess maybe the idea is that it just contains the meat, fish, fruit, and veg. So I I don't I don't know what the thinking is. Like you say, like there's very arbitrary rules around this. Also, many products that go into ingredients for home baking, such as bicarbonate of soda, cake mix, starch and gelatin, and vegetable oils. Then we also have bakery items, including but not limited to, bread, cakes, flapjacks, gingerbread, some marshmallows, and millionaires shortcake.
SPEAKER_07When you say some marshmallows, like what is what is it? Giant marshmallows you can't or a bat.
SPEAKER_00We'll get to it. It will be quizzed later.
SPEAKER_04Oh no. Can I also make a clarification for any American listeners? You said flapjacks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04We call flapjacks, it's another word for pancakes. She doesn't mean pancakes. It's like a granola bar-esque thing, is the best thing I can think of.
SPEAKER_07Granola bar.
SPEAKER_00Esque. Esque. I I don't know another way of really describing it. I'm not a fan personally of a flapjack. Either. Not here, but in the States, yeah.
SPEAKER_07What is wrong with you?
SPEAKER_00You're wrong.
SPEAKER_07I like making flapjack the next time.
SPEAKER_04Okay, maybe add like Chris's flapjack. Dry and yeah, they are dry. Can you like add some chocolate in it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely not.
SPEAKER_04Dark chocolate.
SPEAKER_00No. I could see a flapjack coated in chocolate. Yeah, that might do it. Sorry, I just wanted to clarify that because it Yeah? No? Thank you. Some marshmallows.
SPEAKER_04You're welcome.
SPEAKER_00Some marshmallows and millionaires shortcake. There are loads more, but that's both the basics and the important stuff for what we're talking about today. Here are some confectioneries that are subject to the standard tax rate, so the 20%. This is chocolates, bars of chocolate, chewing gum, ice cream, Turkish Delight, some marshmallows, boiled sweets, lollipops, and sherbet. There are some specific stipulations though on what exactly would have a standard rate of tax. Like one is biscuits specifically that are wholly or partially covered in chocolate or some products similar in taste and appearance. And any item of sweetened prepared food other than cakes and non-chocolate biscuits, which is normally eaten with the fingers.
SPEAKER_04Doesn't specify that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Does that mean there's a committee in like the Treasury somewhere that is like tasting these things? Oh no, you cannot eat this with the fingers. It's not similar to this in taste and texture, so um, yeah, VAT.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Holy crap. Now, you're going to be doing a taste test with seven seven well-known confectionery items. And I'd like you to tell me, given what you've learned, whether you think each item would be a zero-rated or standard rated tax.
SPEAKER_03Oh, Jacob, I'm gonna fail.
SPEAKER_00I'm happy to go through the list of confectionery items again from before as a refresher.
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna need it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, me too.
SPEAKER_07I don't because I was paying attention.
SPEAKER_04No one asked you. I was paying attention too, but it's gone out of my brain.
SPEAKER_00So the zero rated would be bakery items, including but not limited to bread, cakes, flapjacks, gingerbread, some marshmallows, and millionaires shortcake. There are more. The ones that are subject to the standard tax rate could be chocolates, bars of chocolate, chewing gum, ice cream, Turkish Delight, some marshmallows, boiled sweets and lollipops and sherbet.
SPEAKER_02I like that some marshmallows are indoors. Very confusing.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, marshmallows are tripping me up.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Okay, so I will be presenting you each with a small sweet treat. Now it's up to you. Do you want to work in teams and decide together? Okay. So that's good.
SPEAKER_02We won't eat in teams, innit?
SPEAKER_00Like no, you'll have your own.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_00No, I need you to do like Lady and the Trump.
SPEAKER_07Wow, who's the tramp?
SPEAKER_00So we'll do them one by one. So I'll give you the treat, and then you'll be able to tell me or decide amongst yourselves what you think. Okay.
SPEAKER_07This is the highest budget episode we've ever done.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_00So grocery budget for the week. So once you've eaten your sweet treat, you will then be able to discuss amongst yourselves and then I assume do a vote on what you think and let me know. Okay. I'd like you to have your eyes closed. Oh, dang. It might give it away if you're um if you're looking at it. Okay. So eyes closed, I it hold your hand out and I'm gonna give you the first treat. No, I'm first.
SPEAKER_07I feel very vulnerable right now.
SPEAKER_00I promise you're safe, I promise. I've given one to Brittany.
SPEAKER_04Interesting. Oh, I'm giving one. Can I eat it? Chris. Oh, it's it's can I eat it now, please?
SPEAKER_00That's the idea.
SPEAKER_04Is it chocolate? I don't like that very much.
SPEAKER_00I'm sorry if you don't like it.
SPEAKER_04That's okay. It's not I'm not saying it's your fault. Just for the listeners.
SPEAKER_02Chocolate cheese.
SPEAKER_04Don't know what I ate.
SPEAKER_02Oh, this is toxed.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm. It's chocolate. Covered. Oh, it's not good.
SPEAKER_07It's like a Rolo.
SPEAKER_04Can I open my eyes? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07It's got like chocolate. It's like a toffee center. No.
SPEAKER_04Does anyone eat that for fun?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, me, it's my favourite chocolate in the world, though.
SPEAKER_04I'm sorry, not sorry.
SPEAKER_07I would eat that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, me too. Guys. It's definitely got bats on it, though. It's good from chocolate, yeah. It's all well, that's all in my fingers. It was melting. That's why I was like, can I just eat it now? It's all over.
SPEAKER_00Okay, what we're going with then. Tax tax. Tax. Yes, you would be right. So that was a chocolate. Um, it didn't have a sticky inside. Didn't? No, no, no.
SPEAKER_07Oh, mood warm.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Next, please close your eyes.
SPEAKER_04So once we can I clarify? Once we put it in our mouths, can we open our eyes? Yes.
SPEAKER_07Usually I don't let her open her eyes.
SPEAKER_04Shut up.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_04Is this a marshmallow?
SPEAKER_02Hmm. Well isn't this oh it's a Jaffa cake. Rafa cake about um not the original, is it?
SPEAKER_07No, it's not, is it? It's an own brand.
SPEAKER_04It's too small.
SPEAKER_00So what do we think about the Jaffa cake? It's partially covered in chocolate.
SPEAKER_04The top, not the bottom. But it's called cake, innit? Yes.
SPEAKER_00A bit confusing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04In it.
SPEAKER_00What do we think? Taxed. Okay. You might have to take a vote.
SPEAKER_02Maybe not taxed. Well, I think they use the cake just to avoid stuff. Ah.
SPEAKER_00No? Like the word. Do you think purely the name of it would get them out of tax?
SPEAKER_02Could it be I have no idea?
SPEAKER_07Because it's pretty much a biscuit, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Because it's it's very weird that it's called a cake, isn't it? It's not a cake. So is it not? The only reason it's called a cake is just to avoid tax. That would make sense. What are we going with?
SPEAKER_00A half-half? No. What do you think? Well, firstly, are we saying it's a cake or a biscuit? It's not a cake. Okay.
SPEAKER_04That's not a cake. It's called a cake. It's quality cake, but it's not a cake. Right. It's a cake cookie.
SPEAKER_07Okay. Okay. Oh, fuck off, Britney. It's not a cookie.
SPEAKER_04It's not a biscuit, is it? That's made of like.
SPEAKER_00Oh, so Britney's saying it's not a cake nor a biscuit. It's a cookie. Sorry. So what would you say?
SPEAKER_02It's not cookie, Britney. Well, it's not a biscuit, new pa.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so let's take cookie out of it. You have to choose cake or biscuit.
SPEAKER_04Fine, biscuit then. But like I wasn't saying cookie, like to be obnoxious, but like No, we didn't think that.
SPEAKER_07No, Britney being obnoxious. God. God forbid.
SPEAKER_02Can I have another Japper cake? Yeah, same.
SPEAKER_07I do really like what brand are these Jaffa cakes?
SPEAKER_02They're litless.
SPEAKER_04We didn't ask for one. You didn't ask for one.
SPEAKER_00Okay, guys, take a vote. Is this zero or taxed? Is this zero rated or standard rated?
SPEAKER_02I don't know, it's confusing. Zero.
SPEAKER_07I think it's zero.
SPEAKER_02Is it because of the cake?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I think it's a cake.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, let's go with cake. Okay, we're deciding cake. Mm-hmm. Okay. Next. Shut your eyes.
SPEAKER_02Now, is this a cookie? That's a chocolate chip cookie.
SPEAKER_00Ooh. Mm-hmm. You can open your eyes.
SPEAKER_02Oh wow.
SPEAKER_00So what do we think? Zero rated or standard for the chocolate chip cookie.
SPEAKER_02Well, it has chocolate.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm. Yeah, but it's not like covered in it.
SPEAKER_02It's not covered. But what's the ratio in it?
SPEAKER_04Based off of the last, what we decided.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I'd say this would be standard. Why?
SPEAKER_07So this is 20%, you think?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Don't ask me why, please. Vibes. Vibes.
SPEAKER_07I think it's I think it comes on the biscuit.
SPEAKER_04Why?
SPEAKER_07Because it's a biscuit.
SPEAKER_04Why?
SPEAKER_07What do you mean why? It's a round thing that is flaky. Well, not flaky. It's not flaky. Crumbly. Crumbly is the word I think.
SPEAKER_04Only crumbly when you chew it.
SPEAKER_07But Jaffa cakes aren't crumbly.
SPEAKER_04When you chew them.
SPEAKER_07I disagree. I don't I've never had Jaffa cake crumbs on my floor.
SPEAKER_04You're not doing it right.
SPEAKER_07I think I should be fully macerating my Jaffa cakes before I put them in my mouth. Okay.
SPEAKER_04I do think it's different than Jaffa cake. Like it's two different products.
SPEAKER_07It's a difference of texture, right?
SPEAKER_04Right? Like two completely different things. Okay.
SPEAKER_07So I think this is this is vat.
SPEAKER_04Right? Like Nuha? Yeah. Okay. Ready for my next? Next. Now this one's.
SPEAKER_07I'm just worried that Jacob could be giving us anything here. Just gamely putting it out.
SPEAKER_04This is in a marshmallow. This one's gonna be much bigger. It's a marshmallow.
SPEAKER_07It's not. Do you like marshmallows?
SPEAKER_02Oh, what is this? Oh what the I know. You only know because you saw me buy them, don't give anything away. Okay, and such.
SPEAKER_04Oh. Oh, I like I I prefer the chocolate chip cookie.
SPEAKER_02No, we didn't preserve them.
SPEAKER_04Can I open my eyes? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Not fully, it's easy. You can open your eyes now.
SPEAKER_04Oh my god, I ate it edible. Whoa.
SPEAKER_06I ate it penalty.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, you criminal. So it's a gingerbread man, and Britney started with the face. Mine's my eyes were closed. So what are we saying here? It is a biscuit, isn't it? Ah.
SPEAKER_07No, gingerbread was in there. Oh. Sorry. No, gingerbread was in there.
SPEAKER_02Which one? With the cakes.
SPEAKER_07I think it was with the cakes, right?
SPEAKER_02Oh. But I don't know, it's quite thin. Do we take like shape into account? It's quite chewy.
SPEAKER_07And I saw the bag, so I know this is a Greg's gingerbread man.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Because we couldn't find any in Lidl. I had to go to Greg's all by itself after lunch. I think it's it's taxed. You think that's taxed? Oh yeah. Because you think it's a biscuit.
SPEAKER_07I think it's not because I think it's gingerbread.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00It's transformed gingerbread. Is it even gingerbread? Exactly. Jaffa cake in disguise. It's called a gingerbread man, but it's a man. Is that gingerbread?
SPEAKER_07Men are subject to that.
SPEAKER_04I don't know when that's. Right. It's not actual.
SPEAKER_07See, I'm thinking Greg's has probably done their homework and made it.
SPEAKER_04I think it's taxed.
SPEAKER_07I don't think it is.
SPEAKER_00You don't think it is, you two do.
SPEAKER_04I feel so wrong. I feel like whatever you say is gonna be right because you know this stuff and I don't.
SPEAKER_07I'm not actually in the gingerbread game myself.
SPEAKER_04No, but you know that.
SPEAKER_07Oh yeah. I'm basically a tax lawyer.
SPEAKER_00Right. Don't eat too much. No, we have two more. We'll eat that later. Pop it down. Two more easily.
SPEAKER_04Right, eyes closed. This one. I know what this is. Do I have to eat this? Genuine question. I'll take a bite, but I'm you don't have to. You really don't have to eat this. I know what it is.
SPEAKER_02I'm lactose intolerant, Jacob. You're poisoning me.
SPEAKER_04This is what you meant by some marshmallows, okay? And then you talked about some things covered in chocolate. You said something about some marshmallows, and then I clocked something about like chocolate as well. Like whether it was fully covered in chocolate or half, or I I don't know where I'm going with this, but that's what I that's my takeaway.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I'm gonna say no.
SPEAKER_07It was things covered in chocolate, wasn't it? Oh I can't remember which side of covered in chocolate was that and which wasn't.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I can tell you. So biscuits that are covered wholly or partially in chocolate are standard rated. Some marshmallows some marshmallows some marshmallows fit into either.
SPEAKER_04But what do we mean?
SPEAKER_07What is some marshmallows? Well it'll be marshmallows covered in chocolate or marshmallows not covered in chocolate, I guess.
SPEAKER_00But then it has a hard biscuity base.
SPEAKER_07Oh buttery biscuit base. Ugh.
SPEAKER_00Does that make it a biscuit? Can we do 10%?
SPEAKER_02Nope. No? I don't know.
SPEAKER_07I think come on. Chocolate cover marshmallows must be subject to that, surely.
SPEAKER_04Okay. But like I feel like this is a trick question.
SPEAKER_07Right? Ugh I think I think I'm saying that. If that's not fat, it should be.
SPEAKER_02Okay. I think it's fatted as well.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_07I fed these to Brittany on one of our first dates thinking, oh, she's gonna be w wow, Scottish food, amazing. But no, she just fucking hated it.
SPEAKER_00Really? Do you hate it? I don't hate it. Okay, eyes closed.
SPEAKER_07See, I would call that a chalky DJ.
SPEAKER_04Well yeah. It is.
SPEAKER_07Okay, great. See, I've been told that calling it a chalky DJ is weird though. But I'm glad to finally meet someone else that calls it that.
SPEAKER_00Well, I I th I don't call it a cho chalky DJ, but it's a chocolate digestive. Yeah. Yeah, no, calling it a chock chalky DJ is weird, yeah.
SPEAKER_07Never mind.
SPEAKER_00Okay, are we saying standard for that one, were you? Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I think so, because it's a chocolate, like which is the top and which is the bottom. Well, it doesn't stipulate that in the I guess it's not fully covered.
SPEAKER_04The chocolate is clearly at the bottom, though.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I would agree with you.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, no, it's not. Okay, whatever. That's the bottom. That's the top. That's the top. You're laying your chocolate digestive down chocolate side.
SPEAKER_07Well, I wouldn't lay it down, I just eat it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I wouldn't lay it down, but that's why I'm laying it down upside down, so the chocolate doesn't get on my gingerbread, man.
SPEAKER_00The chocolate's on the top, because if you lay it down, you put it. Why would I ever lay chocolate down? Well, you might you might, you know, add it. She has literally done it there, but you need you might need to put your biscuit on a table while you sip the tea. It's the You don't eat chocolate.
SPEAKER_07You dunk your DJ into your tea. Yeah. Oh, Jacoa.
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah, that's the only way to do it. I I I understand your lifestyle with that.
SPEAKER_07But I don't agree with it.
SPEAKER_00I don't agree with it. Right. Last one. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02You bring up a sip of the just. I mean, yeah, the biscuits and the chocolate, but finish your mouthful of them. I have something and like, you know, I need to say it. Oh my god. You're gonna have to remove all of it. Okay. The chocolate layer is quite thin. So I don't know about like, you know, cover. It's not really fully covering. Yeah, no, it's a bit like too thin. Okay. Is there like a quantity of chocolate like sticky? It says wholly or partially covered. Well, never mind then.
SPEAKER_07Okay, so partially covered, it's definitely partially covered, so no that. Okay. Right. No, no way. Other way around. That. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Shut your eyes. Yes, ma'am. And you're gonna fuller. Oh, oh, I don't like the feeling.
SPEAKER_00Ooh, I don't like. I'm sorry, these are little marshmallows, so they're not don't be that good.
SPEAKER_04Yum yum yum. Right, so what are we saying qualifies under some marshmallows?
SPEAKER_07Well, I think that's the point, right?
SPEAKER_00So I have technically given you the answer. But it's chocolate. No, there's no chocolate, but it is a bit convoluted. But I have technically given you the specific stipulation for how this would be vattered.
SPEAKER_07Have you?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02I think I was so excited about the food I think I must.
SPEAKER_04Can you read the whole thing again? No.
SPEAKER_07Tonly or partially covered in chocolate, was that it?
SPEAKER_04No, but it was off that bit.
SPEAKER_07Oh what did I say at the end? A biscuit base. Uh no.
SPEAKER_00About how it's eaten. With your hands.
SPEAKER_07If you finger your marshmallow, it's fat. Yes. Oh fuck.
SPEAKER_04How would you not finger your marshmallows?
unknownWhat the?
SPEAKER_04When would you ever eat it with a fork and a knife? Not necessarily like that. Spoon.
SPEAKER_00But there are things that are larger marshmallows that you would typically roast.
SPEAKER_02Also in SQ or can the vibe. You can still eat those with your fingers. You can. You can. But you could you could fluff this one as well, like in on the fire. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You could. But it's not typically eaten roasted.
SPEAKER_04Well, do they go and interview every single person?
SPEAKER_07What do you intend to do with this marshmallow? Because, you know, if you're gonna roast it, we'll charge you 20% extra.
SPEAKER_00What? And then there's mini marshmallows, which would typically go on top of the hot chocolate. They're not eaten with the fingers.
SPEAKER_07So if you finger it, is it that or no vat?
SPEAKER_00Vat.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_00Just like the covered biscuits, chocolate-covered biscuits.
SPEAKER_07So that was definitely a fingerable flash mallow. So that would be that.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_07Wow.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so we'll be right back. Who comes up with these rules? You're a countryman. HMRC, I guess. So we have the answers. So you said the chocolate was standard because it's chocolate, and that was a yes.
SPEAKER_07Amazing. One out of one so far.
SPEAKER_00You decided that the Jaffa cakes were cakes and therefore zero rated, and you were correct.
SPEAKER_02We're good in it.
SPEAKER_07I can see Brittany disagrees with this.
SPEAKER_04No. I well, fundamentally, yes.
SPEAKER_07But no.
SPEAKER_04But no. But in this case, I just like to be right.
SPEAKER_02But they're quite smart with the cake vibe thing. Well, we'll get there. Oh, maybe they're dumb. No, nothing they're smart. I think they're smart because like at the end of it, it's a bit cakey. Like you've got a filling and you've got like, ah, they're brilliant.
SPEAKER_00So what did we say on the chocolate chip cookies again?
SPEAKER_07I think we said that because it's biscuit, right?
SPEAKER_00Right, so they're zero rated. Why?
SPEAKER_07What's wrong?
SPEAKER_00Is it the what? Yeah. You do it with your fingers, chocolate. Well, no, I grumbly. I think it's something to do with the fact that the chocolate is technically cooking chocolate because it comes in chips, because chocolate is chocolate is standard rating, but chocolate chips are not.
SPEAKER_07This is so fucking stupid. This is just whoever's got the best lawyer that can make an argument about chocolate chips.
SPEAKER_00So the cookie is technically, I suppose, not a biscuit, and even if it were, the chocolate that is within it is chocolate chip chocolate, which is technically a cooking chocolate, which is technically a bakery item or a baking ingredient, which means it's zero rated.
SPEAKER_07In the nicest way, how are you cooking the chocolate without it being cooking chocolate?
SPEAKER_00Well, a cook a bar of cooking chocolate is also zero rated because it's technically a bakery ingredient.
SPEAKER_02I didn't know there was a difference. Who tells you that the the covered chocolate of the other taxed biscuits are like, you know, they're not like actual cooking chocolate bars. It's milk chocolate. So it's different. So they can come in bars and they're meant for the kitchen for you to cook for them with them.
SPEAKER_04See, I never knew until well, fairly recently that like there's a difference, maybe in this country, maybe not in mine. I don't know. Between chocolate and cooking chocolate. Like I would just cook anything with like a normal bar of chocolate that I liked because all the cooking chocolate here is not really what I care for. So I just go out and get my way. Not necessarily. Like there is dark cooking chocolate in the chocolate. There is dark cooking chocolate. Yeah, but like why?
SPEAKER_00What's the difference between chocolate chocolate? Yeah, that's what I'm asking. I have no idea about the difference in ingredients, but if you think about it, so the chocolate digestive is cooked without the chocolate, and then the chocolate is actually like put over it, whereas the chocolate chip cookie is cooked with the chocolate inside it, which therefore makes it an ingredient. But I don't agree with it. I know, this is all this is all about it. But it's still a biscuit.
SPEAKER_07No? Which one? Is it a cake? Is a cookie a cake?
SPEAKER_00What a cookie? No.
SPEAKER_07Um I thought all biscuits have that on them. No?
SPEAKER_00Um obviously not. I mean, I don't know. Is a cookie a biscuit?
SPEAKER_07Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02So, did these people just like invent these jobs, like to decide on this this kind of thing? Just giving their friends jobs.
SPEAKER_00I mean, at the end of the day, there are reasons, I'm sure. I didn't get to interview anybody. Fair enough.
SPEAKER_07Maybe we should have done more research on this if we're doing a podcast on it.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, we'll get there for some of the things. There's no research on my thing.
SPEAKER_04You be quiet over there.
SPEAKER_00We'll get there for some of them, but you know, I am not going to look into. I mean, I can't I can't find I wasn't sitting in the boardroom. I can't find exactly why. So then we got to the chocolate digestive, which you were correct, that is standard rated. The gingerbread man. Now, gingerbread is on the standard. Right. But gingerbread men are on the zero rated.
SPEAKER_04What? So wait, say that again. So I thought it was on the rate.
SPEAKER_00So gingerbread is standard rated. Gingerbread men are zero rated. It's the most. Even when the gingerbread men have chocolate eyes, they're still zero.
SPEAKER_07And what if you finger them?
SPEAKER_00Uh I think that's a bit misogynist check out. I mean, what you do in your own home, it's nothing to do with zero.
SPEAKER_07Okay, so as long as you buy them before you finger them, they're zero rated.
SPEAKER_00Jesus Chris.
SPEAKER_04So Does it have something to do with the decorations? Like, why? No, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I guess it's a biscuit. That no, wait, because the biscuit would be but then it's not covered in chocolate. I don't know, guys. I wasn't in the board. I don't know why they do this. I don't know. It gets This is gonna get worse as we go on. Oh my god. I have a quiz for you at the end that I hope is gonna drive you crazy. Okay. It already is. What did we decide on the tea cakes?
SPEAKER_07Well, they're chocolate covered tea cakes. Well, it's let's think about it. It's a biscuit covered in marshmallow covered in chocolate.
SPEAKER_00So does it come under marshmallows or either covered in chocolate usually stays standard with the biscuit, but is it a biscuit?
SPEAKER_07Well, it is a biscuit, but it's also got some marshmallows.
SPEAKER_00No, it's not.
SPEAKER_02It's not a biscuit.
SPEAKER_07You don't think that's a biscuit? No, it's got a biscuit base.
SPEAKER_04Just because that's the base of that doesn't mean that's what it is. The whole thing consists of a marshmallow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so the majority of it is the marshmallow. Yeah. You're wrong.
SPEAKER_07I think it's got vat on it.
SPEAKER_04Okay. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it got a vat because of the chocolate.
SPEAKER_04So the tea cakes are zero rated. Oh my god!
SPEAKER_07This is the stupidest fucking thing ever. They need to just put vat on all bakery items. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_07Or none.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I think it's just like a matter of like whose f like favourite biscuits are and they just decide on. I suppose it's sucks this and it's not a biscuit.
SPEAKER_07It's just based on which biscuit company pays the most money to HMC in donations. Who is getting the most gingerbread?
unknownOoh.
SPEAKER_00And so the marshmallows, obviously, the finger ones are the standard, and then you've got large ones for roasting and minis for hot chocolate, which are zero rated.
SPEAKER_07Wait, so the minis are zero rated.
SPEAKER_00Large or a mini. Yeah, because you don't have finger them. Yes.
SPEAKER_07Oh, so it's based on who's fingerable. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Again. Except for the gingerbread, because they're zero rated, but they are eaten with the fingers.
SPEAKER_07Oh my god. I think it's just based on who's got fingers in so many pies, you know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Fingers in pies or pee pies.
SPEAKER_00Taxed. Uh yes, I think probably. Oh god. So the marshmallow one.
SPEAKER_07No, I think probably not, and we'll check which is true and then you can edit it in.
SPEAKER_00I just fit in my opinion. I mean, after what we've learned, you know.
SPEAKER_07They just make it up as they go along, don't they?
SPEAKER_00So the marshmallow one comes after a case where Innovative Bites Limited took HMRC to court over their mega marshmallows. They argued that their large marshmallows weren't really normal snack marshmallows because they weren't typically eaten with the fingers. They were huge marshmallows, mainly sold for toasting, barbecues, fire pits, and s'mores.
SPEAKER_04Which you still put between chocolate and graham crackers into a s'more and you still eat with what? Your fingers! You don't eat it with bear claws, do you? You don't eat it with a fork and it's not. Okay?
SPEAKER_00But the point is, it's still finger food. It's an ingredient that goes into the finger food, I suppose. Still finger food. Well, the company won their case against HMRC, and so the larger ones and the smaller ones are zero rated. Do people just not have anything better to do with their life? Obviously not. I mean the thing is I mean, I get it.
SPEAKER_07It's a significant amount of money, right? 20%, that's quite a lot. Can you reduce your prices by 20%?
SPEAKER_00If you can get off on a technicality to not pay tax.
SPEAKER_07That's my favourite thing to get off to.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Technicalities. Now, interestingly, during that taste test, you determined the Jaffa cake as a cake.
SPEAKER_04Uh not me.
SPEAKER_00Except for Brittany who said it's a biscuit.
SPEAKER_04It's a cookie.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03A biscuit is bread.
SPEAKER_00But which one is it really?
SPEAKER_04Oh no. If we if you tell me that it's a cake. Oh, it's a cake. Look at her face.
SPEAKER_00Jump out the window. The Jaffa cake was invented in 19. any guesses? 25. 43. She's so close.
SPEAKER_0427. Yes, 27.
SPEAKER_00By British manufacturer McVitie's. They are named after the Jaffa Orange.
SPEAKER_02Jaffa Palestinian. Jaffa. Jaffa. Yeah. Uh information for everyone here.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_07Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Not very sure though, so I believe you.
SPEAKER_00Jaffa cakes are circular, 54 millimeters in diameter. Usually yours were minis.
SPEAKER_07I was gonna say those were the budget version.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and little. They have a sponge base, a layer of orange flavoured.
SPEAKER_04Sorry, they have a sponge base.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that is a sponge base.
SPEAKER_04That was not a sponge. Guys, that was not a sponge base. What was it? Graham cracker.
SPEAKER_07Oh fuck off. We don't have those. Um is that just like a digestive?
SPEAKER_04It wasn't a sponge, okay? That's what I'm getting at. I spit into the mic also.
SPEAKER_07Sorry, that's what the pop filters are there for.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04Sorry, it's really aggravating me.
SPEAKER_00So a sponge base, a layer of orange flavoured jam, and a coating of chocolate. You may have seen other Jaffa cakes on sale in your local supermarket that weren't manufactured by McVitis, and that is because the company never trademarked the name. Not that brilliant. Jaffa cake production was temporarily stopped during World War II due to rationing, and during this time, McVitie's and Price merged with another company, Biscuit Makers McFarlane, and in 1948 they became United Biscuits Limited.
SPEAKER_04Can I see another one of them, please? Chris?
SPEAKER_07Go on then. I better do my research properly.
SPEAKER_04This is not a sponge on the bottom.
SPEAKER_07No, it's pretty solid, isn't it? Oh, how's eaten hers?
SPEAKER_04Sorry, I'm still caught up on the inside, but not on the bottom.
SPEAKER_07I mean, you can have hard sponges, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. No, no. Can you? Can you not?
SPEAKER_07How does one define a cake and how does one define a biscuit?
SPEAKER_04I thought you were gonna say how does one define a sponge? I'm thinking like coral reefs, you know, like the sponges down there, but they only get hard when they die.
SPEAKER_00It's a terrible affliction.
SPEAKER_07I used to have a real sponge. Yeah, me too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's very not PC now.
SPEAKER_07No. What was that?
SPEAKER_00Sponge? What was that about the Jaffa Orange New Hood?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just check that it's Palestinian. It's Palestinian.
SPEAKER_07It's like a region of Palestine, right?
SPEAKER_00Oh, good to know.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, nice. Well you know. Learn a lot from this podcast.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I can't keep stopping to give you marshmallows. Please hold.
SPEAKER_07The Jaffa cakes, not marshmallows. She asked for a marshmallow. Okay, except I would also like a marshmallow.
SPEAKER_02A fingerable marshmallow. Yes, please.
SPEAKER_07Hang on. Nuha got a fingerable one. Mine doesn't have a hole to finger.
SPEAKER_04Should you use your toes instead? Oh, that was quick. Did you think that was funny?
SPEAKER_00It is too quick. No fingers available. She uses her toes. Alrighty then.
SPEAKER_07You can see why I'm marrying her. Wild.
SPEAKER_00You haven't yet. So they became United Biscuits Limited. Jaffa cakes were back on the shelves in 1950 with more than 10,000 tins being produced daily.
SPEAKER_07Sorry, tins.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_07Of Jaffa cakes.
SPEAKER_00Must have come in tins back then? It's like sardines. Yeah, I think I remember like the rectangular tins with the lid on top.
SPEAKER_07Oh, yeah, like the little um rectangular. What the fuck?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, like a square, sorry.
SPEAKER_07Like round.
SPEAKER_00No, I'm I'm imagining square in the 30s with the square lid on top, yeah. What the fuck?
SPEAKER_07Oh, you are old.
SPEAKER_00When were you born again? Uh long, long time ago, didn't you?
SPEAKER_07Were you born in the 80s? Yes. No, I wasn't.
SPEAKER_00I wasn't. I'm 91.
SPEAKER_04Oh, okay. So old, but you know.
SPEAKER_00No, it's all right. I'm leaving her alone.
SPEAKER_05I know.
SPEAKER_00In the late 80s, United Biscuits had a bust-up with confectionery manufacturer Burton's when they released their own lime and lemon jaffa cakes.
SPEAKER_07It's not a Jaffa cake then, is it? Because Jaffas are oranges.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_07So it should be like a what's a variety of lime?
SPEAKER_00Key lime.
SPEAKER_07Key cakes. Okay.
SPEAKER_00I think they sound lovely. I'd love one of them. A lemon and lime jaffa cake.
SPEAKER_07It does sound good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You don't even like lemon. I think in a if it's covered in chocolate with a sponge basic. Do you not like lemon? No, not a lemon fan.
SPEAKER_04Have we ever made you anything lemon?
SPEAKER_00Don't think so. I mean to be honest, it's case-by-case basis.
SPEAKER_07I don't like lemons when they're in like savory foods.
SPEAKER_04He doesn't like like lemon chicken. I agree.
SPEAKER_00No, I hate lemon chicken, yeah. You guys are wrong. United Biscuits sued Burton's, but the case was thrown out. It was mostly about the packaging, so Burton's design was very similar to the McVitie's, but the judge said that the only distinctive element of their Jaffa Cakes packaging was the McVitie's logo, which Burton's had not copied. And you will see our are little it's very McVitie's esque. It's got the blue and the orange. It looks similar. It says mini Jaffa Cakes.
SPEAKER_07That's insane. They can get away with that.
SPEAKER_00But they didn't trademark the name. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07I guess that's on the internet.
SPEAKER_00That's crazy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07If you'd asked me, I'd said that was like from Jaffa.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. From make videos.
SPEAKER_00But it uses the same colours and everything, yeah. And so continued the successful production of Jaffa Cakes, a nation's favourite, and nice and cheap. As due to it being a cake, it was zero rated for VAT. Until 1991, when Inland Revenue started what? Was that because of you?
SPEAKER_04Sorry. I didn't go there.
SPEAKER_00Until 1991, when Inland Revenue started to question whether the Jaffa cake really is a cake after all.
SPEAKER_04It's not a cake.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_07Also, did they not have anything better to do? Like, guys, I think I know I'm gonna get some extra money.
SPEAKER_02Because it did take them a long time, like 27 to 1991.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_07That's a lot of years. You know how many years that was. Right into us at Frankherringspod at gmail.com.
SPEAKER_00I didn't put this in, but I think they do reviews every now and again. So this it come un the Jaffa cake must have come under review. And this is where it was questioned. It's not a cake. So they ultimately decided that no, it isn't a cake, and they wanted to start charging VAT.
SPEAKER_07Were they gonna like backcharge 80 well 60 years of VAT? No, they were just gonna say from now on, right, okay.
SPEAKER_00A Jaffa cake is a chocolate-covered biscuit, actually, so they said. And they set about telling United Biscuits that they had to start putting a standard rate of VAT on their Jaffa cake products. United Biscuits strongly disagreed. So how are we feeling about our earlier determination of cake, except for Britney, status on the Jaffa cake? Are we feeling confident, you two?
SPEAKER_02Well, now I'm confused about whether it cooks with the chocolate or the the chocolate is added after it's well, we would be determining that I suppose after we decide whether it's a cake or a biscuit.
SPEAKER_00Because that's only relevant if it's a biscuit.
SPEAKER_07Right, I see. So we're saying if the sponge bit is a cake, then it's fine. If it's a biscuit, then it's fat. Yes. Right.
SPEAKER_02I think it's a cake. We've got a filling there. We've got all the composants of a supposed cake, even though it's a I do agree, but it hurts me to agree.
SPEAKER_04Because it's not a cake.
SPEAKER_07I mean, are we saying like a slice of toast with like jam and then a teller on top is a cake?
SPEAKER_04No.
SPEAKER_07So why is a jaffa cake a cake?
SPEAKER_04Thank you.
SPEAKER_07But I do think it's a cake.
SPEAKER_04I know. Like it makes me want to agree that it's gonna end up. I don't know, something's gonna happen where they're gonna eventually agree, yeah, okay, it's a cake. Even though I know the whole thing happened, but like, oh, it just hurts me.
SPEAKER_00Because it's not. So United Biscuits took this issue to tribunal, which I mean they're literally called United Biscuits. I know, right, yes. Which is a specialist court. There are variations in tribunals, and this was a tax tribunal. What do you think the definition is of a cake or of a biscuit?
SPEAKER_02Well, that's one thing I've never thought about.
SPEAKER_07Is it something to do with how it rises?
SPEAKER_04No.
SPEAKER_07Oh.
SPEAKER_04The layers, perhaps?
SPEAKER_07No.
SPEAKER_04What's included? Maybe. Is there no actual definition? It's just what people want. Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Although we'll sort of get to some of the ideas of what makes a biscuit and what makes a cake later, but there is no standard definition for either. But the gov.uk website states that the distinction is usually clear in practice. So I suppose until it comes to Jaffa Cakes. Also, according to the gov.uk website, customs and excise had always been a bit dubious about the categorisation of Jaffa Cakes as cakes. HM Customs and Excise was the government department responsible for VAT in the 90s. In 2009, it merged with the Inland Revenue to form HM Revenue and Customs or HMRC as we know it today. Does anybody actually know what the tribunal finally ruled, whether it was a cake or a biscuit?
SPEAKER_04But I have a question. You said in practice. Do you mean physically making them?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yes. Imagine them with me.
SPEAKER_04Right? I'm like, right, so if you're putting them down on a cookie sheet, they're cookies. If you're putting them in a she's thing, correct, it's a cake.
SPEAKER_07So it's to do with the bake them in the no. Yes. But you bake biscuits.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's biscuits. Sorry. Sorry. I'm very animated about this one. So it's about it's mainly about the ingredients used. Right. So if it's a doughy mixture. Okay.
SPEAKER_07So if the but that comes back to what I was saying about rising, like if you use baking powder and it goes bl.
SPEAKER_00It's not about rising, but I I haven't put it in here, but I did see one of the distinctions is that with cake you would end up with quite a liquidy mixture, and with cookies, you'd end up with a tough mixture that you actually cooked. That can hold the shape. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07I think I might know what the distinction was.
SPEAKER_00Go on.
SPEAKER_07I think it was cakes get hard when they get stale and biscuits go soft when they get stale.
SPEAKER_00That was one of them that was used, yes. Do we know what they decided in the end?
SPEAKER_07I mean, I think I do know that they were ruled as cakes, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes, you are correct. So they said that firstly the product name was a minor consideration. So the fact that it's called a Jaffa cake was taken minor. They just labelled it.
SPEAKER_07That's so silly, because I you can call anything anything.
SPEAKER_01Minor consideration. Okay. But you need the audacity to actually name it the thing that it's not it. You know. Right. So they take a point for that.
SPEAKER_07So yeah, that's a bit silly. I wouldn't have even taken that into account at all. You can call it whatever you like.
SPEAKER_00Well, exactly. And they did say that. They you can call it a cake for sure, but it doesn't make it a cake. So that wasn't, you know, they weren't using that in their decision. I mean you could call it a book.
SPEAKER_07Books are zero rated. Oh, they called it a book, therefore it's a book. No, it's a cake.
SPEAKER_00And they said that the packaging for the Jaffa cakes was mostly similar to biscuit packaging rather than your typical cake packaging. So they took that into consideration. What does that have to do with the actual baking? They're taking these things into consideration. Yeah, well, they're wrong. Also, Jaffa cakes are typically displayed with the biscuits on the biscuit aisle rather than the cake section of a shop. As they should be.
SPEAKER_07That is true, but again, irrelevant.
SPEAKER_00Also taken into consideration, and that Jaffa cakes are a snack item usually eaten with the fingers. Whereas you'd usually eat a cake with a fork or a spoon or a really
SPEAKER_07No, not necessarily. It depends how depressed you are.
SPEAKER_04What did you say?
SPEAKER_07Nothing, honey. What'd you say? So it depends how depressed you are.
SPEAKER_04What about the spoon? No.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, because sometimes you just grab a.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's how it should be eaten. But like you, I feel like you and your family would eat it with a spoon. You have eaten cakes in front of me with spoons. Yes.
SPEAKER_07How else would one eat a cake?
SPEAKER_04A fork. A spoke.
SPEAKER_02Wrong. I would go with the hands.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_07Okay, but excluding people from uncivilized countries.
SPEAKER_02I don't know how to respond to that.
SPEAKER_04So we have a spoon for a while. If we were talking about Britney. You're not wrong.
SPEAKER_00However, when a Jaffa cake goes stale, it turns hard like a cake rather than soggy like a biscuit.
SPEAKER_02Technicalities again. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00Also, cakes are soft, whereas biscuits you would think should be able to be snapped. No, not necessarily. And finally, Jaffa cakes are made out of egg, flour, and sugar mixture, which is the same as a traditional sponge cake. I don't know if it's a big thing. I agree.
SPEAKER_07That is the only thing they should have been looking at.
SPEAKER_04Yes. If they wanted it to be a cake, they should have made it in like a cake form. Like a big baby cake. It's not a baby cake. It is a cookie. Would you say that like a biscuit, whatever you want to call it?
SPEAKER_07Butterfly buns aren't cakes.
SPEAKER_04I've never heard of that until you introduced me to that. That I would consider that like a cupcake. What's a butterfly bun? Thank you.
SPEAKER_07Have you never heard of butterfly buns? Describe it to me. It's like a cupcake and like a muffin cake, but then you scoop out the top. Yes. Yeah, and then you like make it into two wings and you put the jam and yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yes. I've never had that one. That's a cupcake. I'll ask Mom to make some. She makes lovely butterfly buns. Yeah, yeah. I think it was the word buns, because I would call them a f a fairy cake. Yeah, fairy cake. Oh, that's cute.
SPEAKER_07I would call fairy cakes just the cake itself, and then once you scoop out the top and make it into wings, that's a butterfly. Interesting.
SPEAKER_05But fairy cake.
SPEAKER_07So do butterflies.
SPEAKER_04I know. And also, wait, right. So you said you'd call it a fairy cake before it was scooped out, but then at that point it'd just be a cupcake. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07I wouldn't call something a cupcake. Why?
SPEAKER_04You've gone wrong in life. Why?
SPEAKER_00She's being brutal today.
SPEAKER_07She is well, she's had a few drinks. She gets very aggressive.
SPEAKER_04I am completely sober, but I want to un I am. But I want to understand your reasoning.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't have any. Doesn't it?
SPEAKER_04Right, like it just doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_00I've always out yeah, I've always used cupcake for sure. Thank you. Or muffin. I mean, what's the difference?
SPEAKER_04There is a difference.
SPEAKER_00Is there? Yeah. Icing on top. What's the difference?
SPEAKER_04Muffins don't have icing. That's what I'm saying. Usually. Is that the only difference? Actually.
SPEAKER_00Some do.
SPEAKER_07You know, I can see how this whole HMRC thing started.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So ultimately the tribunal said that Jaffa cakes certainly had attributes to both cakes and biscuits. However, it thought they had enough cakey characteristics to be considered as such. And officially determined the Jaffa cake to be a cake, and therefore it could keep its zero rating. There's tension in the room, guys. Now for a bit of fun. We're going to. That wasn't fun. We're gonna even more fun. Oh we're gonna play a fun game of pin the donkey, except pin the donkey?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Pin the donkey on the tail.
SPEAKER_00Pin the tail on the donkey? Yes, is that what it's called? Pin the tail on the donkey. I'm not familiar. Yeah, I can't explain. It doesn't matter. You don't need to know the game. We are gonna be pinning products to the correct category. Oh. So I sent you a document yesterday.
SPEAKER_06Wait, wait, I'm not gonna do that.
SPEAKER_07I can see this is gonna really annoy me just from the things I'm seeing so far.
SPEAKER_00What is ghetto?
SPEAKER_07Oh, fuck off, Brittany.
SPEAKER_04I'm not being funny.
SPEAKER_00I mean it's like uh it's like an ice cream, I guess, that maybe looks like a cake and it may have bits in it that aren't ice cream.
SPEAKER_07Is that not like you've had Black Forest gatto.
SPEAKER_00I've had Black Forest. Black Forest. I'm thinking from Germany, Black Forest Kuchen. See, I'm thinking of Vienna gatto.
SPEAKER_07Oh right, okay. What's that?
SPEAKER_00Vienetta, sorry, yes. What's that?
SPEAKER_07It's like ice cre you you know the squiggly ice cream.
SPEAKER_04Stratchatella.
SPEAKER_07No.
SPEAKER_04Cookies and cream. No. Cookie dough?
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I don't know that, but no. Yes, okay.
SPEAKER_07It's incredibly traditional Vienna rice cream.
SPEAKER_00Vienna. What did you call Vienetta?
SPEAKER_04Vienna. Viennese. So I need you.
SPEAKER_00So I need you to tell me whether you think these products that you can see in front of you are zero rated or standard rated. Now, it'll be mostly a guessing game here, but let's see how we do. Again, work as a team, we'll do one at a time, and hopefully that'll inform you as you go. So, just for the listeners, we have frozen yogurt that has to be thawed completely before eaten, then frozen yogurt. We have ice cream gato and cream gato, we have baked Alaska, chocolate cake, and then cones and wafers that come with ice cream and cones and wafers. So let's start with uh frozen yogurt that has been thawed completely before eating.
SPEAKER_07I've never had a frozen yogurt that has to be thawed completely before eating. What is that even talking about?
SPEAKER_00I think that might be about the storage where it's actually frozen in storage and then it's thawed on the sh like before it gets to the shelf.
SPEAKER_04Like thawed enough to be scooped out or like thawed to like be liquid.
SPEAKER_07Well it says completely thawed, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_04Yes, right. Okay.
SPEAKER_07So I would guess that's zero-rated.
SPEAKER_01Anyone else? What's your thought process for that?
SPEAKER_07My thought process is like yogurt is quite a like a staple food. So I think if they like it it shouldn't matter how it's stored beforehand, if you're gonna thaw it completely, it should be equivalent to like normal yogurt. And my thought is normal yogurt should be standard rate sorry, zero rated. So therefore, so should frozen yogurt that has to be completely thawed.
SPEAKER_02Right. Why shouldn't they like cover the course of like the the storage and so on with that like what are we going with? I agree with Chris.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02Well, I disagree with Chris. Okay. Just for the sake of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So Chris is right. Shit on it. Frozen yogurt that has to be thawed completely before eaten is zero rated. What about frozen yogurt?
SPEAKER_07I think that should be, you know, standard rate because frozen yogurt is basically ice cream. I've never understood what the difference between frozen yogurt and ice cream is. Yeah, I am basic, and I'm proud to admit it in that case.
SPEAKER_02I'm basic as well. I think it's about to be a good thing.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Yeah, you are correct. Frozen yogurt is standard rated. Ice cream gatto.
SPEAKER_07See, I'm thinking ice cream is standard rate. So putting it in a gatto should also be standard rate. No, wrong. Like why why would it why would it make it if ice cream is standard rating rated and ice cream gatto isn't, like you could just put like a little crumb of gatto into your ice cream.
SPEAKER_04Is that not what they do with chocolate chip cookies?
SPEAKER_07Oh, it's oh is uh cookies and cream ice cream zero rated and the rest of ice cream is? I have no idea. This could change everything. I'm saying standard rated.
SPEAKER_01Everyone in agreement? Can we go over what gatto means? Because I'm confused.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, see, okay, I'm a bit confused as well. Because I don't know. So you have ice cream with bits of cake in it. So gatto is genuine asking.
SPEAKER_07This is cake with bits of ice cream in it. Like uh like a Black Forest ghetto, but you get frozen.
SPEAKER_04Oh, so I was thinking the other way around. I thought this was ice cream with bits of cake in it. This would be an ice cream gato. I've just googled it.
SPEAKER_07Oh, that looks yummy. Why didn't you bring that?
SPEAKER_04Oh, that's a cake. That's not ice cream.
SPEAKER_01Well, exactly. That's a cake. Because when I hear gato, I immediately I think of biscuits.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01So when you show me that, that's changing everything, like you said. Right.
SPEAKER_04So I I imagined ice cream with bits of cake. So I was like, okay, it's in the ice cream thing, but that's a cake. That's not ice cream, that's cake. Why is the word ice cream in front of the word gâteau? Because it's made out of ice cream. But it's a cake.
SPEAKER_02It's in the shape of a cake. It's in the shape of a cake, but to the opposite of the Jaffa cake. Not in the shape of the cake.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I'm gonna put you out of your misery here. Ice cream ghetto is standard rated chat on it. What about cream ghetto?
SPEAKER_04Oh, good joko, what is this?
SPEAKER_02I think that's that's not vatus. It's it's it's a cake at the end of the day. Yeah, it's a few.
SPEAKER_07Is it a cake made of cream? I'm thinking it's cake with some with some like cream. Like like shh that sort of cream, right? Oh, that looks correct. I would say that.
SPEAKER_02You're saying that no vat. Okay.
SPEAKER_07If I bought that in a shop, I would expect to have that on it. Like a bakery. Like you'd expect to see that on that, right?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, uh you may be misremembering because no bakery ingredients are the ones that are zero. So a cake is a zero. The Jaffa cake is a zero.
SPEAKER_07Okay, yes, sorry. Wrong way around. Yes. Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Then not change your mind, Chris.
SPEAKER_02Shut up.
SPEAKER_00Nuha got it right first. Yeah. Um cream gâteau is zero rated. Now, what about a baked Alaska?
SPEAKER_02What's the an Alaska?
SPEAKER_04That's the one that's on fire, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00It's on fire. So this is a baked Alaska. Yeah. What? Wait, ice cream's in the middle? Wait, wait, wait.
SPEAKER_07Is that a meringue on top?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it is meringue. Yeah, okay. But it's not ice cream. Which is eggs. Is that not cake? Cakey.
SPEAKER_07Not vattable.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. So what do we say about the baked Alaska?
SPEAKER_07Ice cream is vattable.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_07Ooh, I think it's vattable.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You would think. I think if one part is, but it's not. If the ice cream ghetto is standard, which is a cake-shaped ice cream, and the baked Alaska is just an ice cream inside a meringue shaped like a cake. It is zero rated.
SPEAKER_07That is so fucking stupid. If I was an ice cream supplier, I would start putting a very, very like micron thin layer of meringue over my ice creams. Can you just save 20%?
SPEAKER_00Just call it a baked Alaska, yeah.
SPEAKER_07Exactly.
SPEAKER_00What about chocolate cake?
SPEAKER_07I'm sorry, if chocolate cake is not a cake.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's not that it's not a cake, but chocolate is standard. But that's cooking chocolate innit. Cooking chocolate would be zero. Sorry, I'm trying to take this jump off without flashing. That's alright. We're all within. Close our eyes. Sorry, okay. What are we saying? Non-vated.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I agree, non-vatted.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Yes, you are correct. Chocolate cake is non-vattered. What about cones and wafers that come with ice cream?
SPEAKER_01That's vattured because it's still.
SPEAKER_04What do you mean cones and wafers that come with ice cream? So an ice cream cone. Yes. Right, but then also on the PowerPoint.
SPEAKER_07Would it be known that Jacoa just made a wanking?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'm aware, but I wasn't being a child. Okay.
SPEAKER_07What is an ice cream? Oh yes, I understand now.
SPEAKER_00I because you uh you know. You hold it like this. Imagine a guy. Imagine a cornetto.
SPEAKER_07But you don't no, Brittany definitely doesn't.
SPEAKER_04Anyway, no, seriously, question. Okay.
SPEAKER_00It's because we grew up on British TV now. Okay. Sorry. Your question.
SPEAKER_04On your PowerPoint, you say cones and wafers by themselves. Then you say cones and wafers that come with ice cream. So what's the difference? Because a wafer with ice cream. Yeah. But are you just gonna eat an empty cone?
SPEAKER_07Or maybe it's to put your own ice cream in.
SPEAKER_04Oh, don't tell me one's fatted and one isn't. Yeah. That's the whole thing.
SPEAKER_07I would say the wafer. Yeah, that's the whole idea of the podcast, Brendan.
SPEAKER_02What did you say? I didn't take it. I think that's what she thought. She was but sorry. I didn't take it that way. What is wrong with you? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Beat 'em up. Anyway. What are we saying?
SPEAKER_07Ice cream is vattable. Therefore, yes. That.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. Yes. Even though we've got the baked Alaska and the I disagree with the baked Alaska, personally.
SPEAKER_03I disagree with Jaffa cakes, but you know, we've moved on.
SPEAKER_00So you are correct. Cones and wafers that come with ice cream are standard rated. Cones and wafers by themselves are zero rated.
SPEAKER_04Why would you ever eat just an empty cone?
SPEAKER_07Well, you don't have to eat it.
SPEAKER_04But why would you buy it?
SPEAKER_07Like, oh my god. They're not forcing you to buy it.
SPEAKER_04I'm saying, why would you? For your own ice cream?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04I mean someone's of a container at that point.
SPEAKER_07How do the people that are like selling ice creams? They don't buy the wafers with the ice cream in it.
SPEAKER_04Ice cream from the ice cream man just because I want a cone.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_07Who is the ice cream man?
SPEAKER_04But if you were the ice cream truck. Sorry.
SPEAKER_00No, no, but if you were an ice cream woman, then you would want to buy your cones and wafers without the ice cream.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, fair, but I'm not.
SPEAKER_00I know. But they do.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01So now the the wafers, are we talking just the ones associated with the ice cream or even the ones that are biscuity that's like.
SPEAKER_00On the gov website it says cones and wafers. Weird.
SPEAKER_04Hi, can I tell you a story? The first time I got ice cream here, and someone was like, Oh, do you want a wafer? I was like, I don't know what that is. And I was like, Yeah, okay, sure. And then they put it in my ice cream, and I was like, why did you contaminate my ice cream? I don't want this. Never ordered one since. It's funny you got this.
SPEAKER_00Are you meaning the flake chocolate that goes in the top?
SPEAKER_07No, no, not the chocolate. You get a little bit of wafer that goes into the top.
SPEAKER_04Oh, is that like the circular thing?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, like the semicircular biscuit. Ah, not the chocolate. Oh, what are you talking about? Did you mean the chocolate flake?
SPEAKER_04I meant the chocolate thing.
SPEAKER_07Oh shit, okay.
SPEAKER_04Do you not mean the chocolate thing?
SPEAKER_00I thought that's what you meant, so I said, but that's not what we would call a wafer. But I was just gonna say it's interesting because flake chocolate is um standard rated, but if it's to go in an ice cream, it's zero.
SPEAKER_07Oh, for fuck's sake, at this point, just put that on everything.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god.
SPEAKER_07I know when I read that, I was like How many hours and how many much money do you think has gone towards lawyers to argue this shit?
SPEAKER_00Considering the cones and wafers that go with ice cream are standard because ice cream is standard, but if the flake chocolate is to go in an ice cream, then it's zero. I know this is amazing.
SPEAKER_07This is so stupid.
SPEAKER_04I'm so hung up on Jaffa cakes.
SPEAKER_00So now to finish off, we're coming to the end. We have another game of two truths and a lie. Oh no. After we had such a successful round for our Wheelie Good time a few weeks ago. So this game is going to revolve around other law cases that have been around food. Okay. So I'm gonna give you three. Okay. Two are true. One is a lie.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00One Pringles took HMRC to tribunal to argue that they are not a crisp. Two Pepsi was sued by a disgruntled customer for not honouring their prize of a Harrier jet when they collected the correct amount of tokens. Three, Slimfast was sued by a woman in 2008 who claimed she didn't get slim fast enough after consuming only the Slim Fast drink for three months. I think the two last ones are true are true.
SPEAKER_04See, I thought that immediately, but then it made me a second guess. Why? Why would it be those two that are true?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, see, I've definitely heard of the Harriet, and I know that's that's true.
SPEAKER_04See, you said that about the sheep thing, whatever it was.
SPEAKER_07No, I definitely heard about the Harrier Jet. I'm think I the Pringles one rings a bell.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think it's A and B are true.
SPEAKER_07Uh-huh. Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_01But why would Pringles no what would Pringles argue?
SPEAKER_04They're why would there be an argument over cake versus biscuits?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, see, I'm thinking Pringles probably aren't crisps because they're like reconstituted potato in like a specific form. And maybe crisps are like chunks of potato that are fried.
SPEAKER_00Fun fact, no potato in Pringles.
SPEAKER_07Really?
SPEAKER_00Why? What have I been eaten? So what's it made out of? It's like it's not crisp. This is correct. So they did take HMRC to court to say they're not a crisp. They are not a crisp, they don't have any potato, they're like made in a dough.
SPEAKER_07Oh shit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's a dough. So what's it made out? Fucking three pounds. A flour and stuff, I guess. They're giving it away. Flour and stuff. I guess. Oh my god. Um you're right. Pepsi was sued by the customer for the Harrier Jet for not for not giving them a Harrier Jet. Um and my one, right?
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, oh, I don't know. It was in America, I'll never cover it. Unless it's a bonus.
SPEAKER_07Um who'd cover something in America?
unknownMe.
SPEAKER_00My Slim Fast one was made up by me.
SPEAKER_07I was gonna I thought you were gonna say I sued Slimfast.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. Okay, so next game. We there's only two, so this is the last one. One. Sorry, I cannot get over Pringles being a little bit more. I know!
SPEAKER_07Yeah, that's blown my mind.
SPEAKER_00Number one, Subway's bread was not able to be defined as bread by legislation due to containing excessive amounts of sugar. Two, the extreme heavy metal band Slipknot sued Burger King for making it look like they featured in some of their commercials. And three, Kirit Pathak, OBE, founder of Pataks, the British food company best known for its Indian-inspired curry sauces, was sued by his estranged brother, omitting his contribution to the products over many years. 56-year-old Kunal Pathak said that he had been fundamental in creating the recipes whilst the true had grown up together in India.
SPEAKER_02I like a five-minute drama, and the last one is. I like the first and the last.
SPEAKER_07If Jacob made up the last one, that is a lot of imagination. Oh my gosh, I think she has that. No, but like that's a lot. I don't know. I w I was gonna say I think the subway one's true, but now the last two saw.
SPEAKER_00Wait, can you reread the subway one? Because it wasn't just that Subway's bread was not able to be defined as bread due to containing excessive amounts of sugar.
SPEAKER_04I do know that there was a thing with Subway's bread that there was plastic found in it.
SPEAKER_00Ah, so no, not to do with that. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Sorry, what was that?
SPEAKER_07No, no, nothing, honey.
SPEAKER_04I'm so shocked that the food like industry. What is this? Wasn't the Subway like spokesman like put away in jail for something?
SPEAKER_00Wait until I do the Aldi scandal, new. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04I don't want to hear about this.
SPEAKER_00Do you like horse? Horse. Horse? The animal. Tesco? I mean, why not? Aldi. Well, maybe and some Tesco, but I'll I remember it being Aldi for the big one. Did they like Yeah, they put horse meat and stuff.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00But they uh importantly didn't tell their customers. Yeah, okay. Um, what are we saying here, guys?
SPEAKER_07See, I was gonna say the subway one's true, but now the last two sounds so plausible that I'm thinking the subway is. So it was Subway and what was the second?
SPEAKER_00Then the heavy metal band slipknot in the commercials, and then uh the estranged brother for Patacs.
SPEAKER_07I'm getting the last two are true.
SPEAKER_00The last two are true. Yeah.
unknownYay!
SPEAKER_04I got you for that! What is it? Is it the last one you made up? Yes.
SPEAKER_07Wow. That's impressive.
SPEAKER_00Imagination on you, babe. Right. So Subway's bread definitely was not able to be defined as bread because of so much sugar, and the extreme heavy metal band Slipknot sued Burger King for making it look like they featured in some of their commercials.
SPEAKER_07Nice.
SPEAKER_00And that was the tale of uh cake question mark? Mr. Mark?
SPEAKER_04Nice. Yay! That was so much fun.
SPEAKER_00My sources are uh gov.uk, the HMRC Food Products Fat Notice 701 to 14, Wikipedia, ACCA Global, Tax Advisor Magazine, and treats were supplied by Little.
SPEAKER_02Yay!
SPEAKER_00Can I have a marshmallow, please? I'll give you two for being a good boy.
SPEAKER_07Thank you, honey. Let it be known that Nuha is also a very good girl.
SPEAKER_00Tuna in next week for a real good tale.