Coach Alex Ray: Hello, my unicorns.
Coach Alex Ray: Welcome back to another special guest episode.
Coach Alex Ray: Today I am so excited to have with me Flamy Grant.
Coach Alex Ray: She's a shameslaying, hip-swaying, singing, songwriting, drag queen making Christian music.
Coach Alex Ray: That speaks directly to her experience as a queer person and you're going to just learn all the most amazing tips from her today.
Coach Alex Ray: So welcome, Flamy, to the Queer Confidence podcast.
Flamy Grant: Thank you.
Flamy Grant: Tips on tips, I'm really happy to be here.
Coach Alex Ray: I'm so happy to have you.
Coach Alex Ray: Also, I'm so proud of myself for not totally fumbling your tongue twister intro.
Flamy Grant: I know.
Flamy Grant: I didn't make it easy, but you nailed it.
Flamy Grant: You nailed it.
Coach Alex Ray: Oh, my God.
Coach Alex Ray: Well, I think we got to start with the.
Coach Alex Ray: We got to start with the obvious.
Coach Alex Ray: For anyone that knows you, they know you've topped the Christians and by that we mean you are the first drag queen to ever top the iTunes single Christian singles and iTunes Christian albums, and your album was there for a while.
Flamy Grant: It was there for nine days.
Flamy Grant: I topped for nine days.
Flamy Grant: You know how exhausting that is.
Flamy Grant: I can't even imagine Me neither.
Flamy Grant: This is the first time I've ever topped anything.
Flamy Grant: So there you go.
Coach Alex Ray: Oh, my God.
Coach Alex Ray: Okay, well, tell us about, tell us a little bit about the journey.
Coach Alex Ray: What was that like, being being on top for so long?
Flamy Grant: It was wild and very unexpected.
Flamy Grant: My hope, with this whole, all the shenanigans that happened around, this was just a chart at all on the Christian charts and so I thought that would be a win.
Flamy Grant: Like, let's just have a drag queen, like show up on the Christian charts period anywhere in the top top 100, top 200.
Flamy Grant: I don't care.
Flamy Grant: Just to be able to say that there was a drag queen on the Christian charts would be huge.
Flamy Grant: But I, the sales caught wind girl, I don't know Like people lashed on to the story and TikTok was very good to me and folks went out and downloaded the record, they downloaded the single and I mean within 24 hours both had hit number one and then, yeah, like we said, the album stayed there for quite a while.
Flamy Grant: I was the literal face of Christian music on iTunes for over a week, which is crazy, crazy.
Coach Alex Ray: I kept going on to check and I just every time I was like please be there, please be there please be there, yes.
Coach Alex Ray: So crazy, oh my gosh.
Coach Alex Ray: It was so fun to see you there and it was also really funny when the I found out about it through Instagram, I think, like the Hillcrest account posted oh yeah, yeah.
Coach Alex Ray: And I was like, oh my God.
Coach Alex Ray: And then I started looking into you and I was like, oh my God, I met her.
Flamy Grant: Hold on, we did a whole gig together.
Coach Alex Ray: We had a conversation, we hung out backstage.
Coach Alex Ray: Yeah, me and my underwear, you and your like in your full In my leotard.
Coach Alex Ray: Yes, you were in your leotard.
Coach Alex Ray: You were in your leopard print rainbow leotard, my Lisa Frank fantasy.
Flamy Grant: Yes, and Bervain made that for me in the Palm Springs and I wear that any chance I get.
Coach Alex Ray: It's so gorgeous.
Coach Alex Ray: Well, for those that don't really know the drama that led to you topping the charts, because I really think that that was also like a big reason why I wanted to have you on the podcast, because the way that you showed up, I think, is a way that all of our unicorns here can live, all of our unicorns here can learn from and really improve their confidence in how they might address things themselves.
Coach Alex Ray: So let's talk about Sean.
Flamy Grant: It sounds like a terrible, like HBO miniseries title.
Flamy Grant: It really does Well.
Flamy Grant: So yeah, Sean Foyt is the person of interest at the moment and if you don't know who, this is good for you.
Coach Alex Ray: If you do.
Flamy Grant: If you do, it means you probably caught wind of his name, either either through this story, which made national headlines, or, more likely, a couple of years prior in the middle of pandemic Sean Foyt, who is a self-described Mago worship leader.
Flamy Grant: Whatever that means, it sounds culty and horrifying.
Flamy Grant: He was the one going around during pandemic and holding these big worship services out in public with just hordes of people unmasked, while the rest of us were like kind of watching on in horror and saying, ok, cool, so like what percentage of that crowd is going to be dead in a month, like that's, that's that's how this disease is working right now.
Flamy Grant: So anyway, sean, you know just, he just came for me on Twitter, as all as people do, but it was in a in response to some work I had done.
Flamy Grant: I had collaborated with another musician, derek Webb, who back in the day was in a big Christian band that was called Caidman's Call, and by back in the day I mean when I was coming up in youth group in church youth group.
Flamy Grant: So the 90s and early 2000s and Derek has, you know, since had a solo career and is a really great guy, good ally and a good friend to me, and so we had collaborated on some music.
Flamy Grant: And Sean Foyt saw that collaboration and said, well, this, this is the I think he says, the end game and goal of deconstruction, which, if you don't know what that word is, it's just kind of the buzzword right now for, like, looking at your inherited belief systems, ie religion, like, like looking at your religion being like, okay, this is what was handed to me and do I actually believe it and is it valuable and is it good or is it doing more harm, those kinds of questions.
Flamy Grant: And so Sean was like, well, this is the end goal of deconstruction.
Flamy Grant: A drag queen collaborating with a Christian musician, blah blah, blah, blah, and which I know right.
Coach Alex Ray: Pausing on that for a moment is hilarious.
Coach Alex Ray: That that's like.
Flamy Grant: That was that was what we were working towards that we have made it.
Coach Alex Ray: Y'all done, done, deconstruction over everyone.
Coach Alex Ray: Go back to what you were doing.
Flamy Grant: This was the end goal and now we can chill.
Flamy Grant: I know, just like crazy, so much crazy in the world.
Flamy Grant: But anyway, you know I am a drag queen and I do deal with online trolls on the reg.
Flamy Grant: So I just responded cutely oh baby, no, and cool, we're just getting started.
Flamy Grant: And Sean came back and said well, good for us, nobody listens to you or cares what you do, which is like the cat-iest thing.
Flamy Grant: Right, like that is such a like that's mean, that is Rachel McAdams and mean girls.
Coach Alex Ray: Like like okay, honestly, if you're going to come for a drag queen, you've got to have some creative clackbacks.
Flamy Grant: You do.
Coach Alex Ray: Like.
Coach Alex Ray: No one likes you.
Flamy Grant: Anyway is just just get ready and I would like to think that maybe Sean will have learned his lesson by now, because I said, oh really, no one cares.
Flamy Grant: No one, sean, and you know, to be fair, I did not have a big Twitter following at the time.
Flamy Grant: So he probably like because this is where this exchange happened was on Twitter or, excuse me, x, whatever, elon.
Flamy Grant: So he probably looked at my Twitter following and was like, oh well, this person's inconsequential, but that's because I hate Twitter and never invested any time in it.
Flamy Grant: But I did have quite a decent following on TikTok.
Flamy Grant: So that's where I went and I said, hey pals, guess what?
Flamy Grant: This thing just happened.
Flamy Grant: And here's what else is in play.
Flamy Grant: I have a record that I released last year.
Flamy Grant: It is already sitting there in the Christian genre, because that's the genre I put it in when I chose to release my independent album and it had done fine.
Flamy Grant: I was really pleased with the performance of my record as an independent first time artist.
Flamy Grant: I've released music in the past under other names, but this was Flamy Grant's first record and you know it had done respectably, and so I was like I would love to see if there is a chance that I just put out the play on TikTok, if there's a chance we could get this record to chart on the Christian charts.
Flamy Grant: And because it's there, I have a song that is quote unquote a worship song.
Flamy Grant: Like there's a lot to talk about in terms of what that means for me and the song in particular, but like it is, it's a worship song.
Flamy Grant: I wrote it for the church I used to be a part of.
Flamy Grant: And what if we got that song?
Flamy Grant: What if we got a worship song by a drag queen to chart after a worship leader a Maga worship leader like came for me online and people really liked that narrative and I kind of suspected they would, which is why I rolled the dice.
Flamy Grant: But wow, I never expected that it would.
Flamy Grant: Yeah, just do what it did.
Flamy Grant: It was crazy.
Coach Alex Ray: Yeah, you kind of like exploded there over the.
Coach Alex Ray: It was like a how many days was it between Twitter and the Twitter exchange and blowing up on iTunes.
Flamy Grant: Literally the next day.
Coach Alex Ray: Like it wasn't even.
Flamy Grant: Yeah, it wasn't even a full 24 hours, oh my God.
Coach Alex Ray: Yeah, so what an emotional rollercoaster, I imagine.
Flamy Grant: It was wild, it was so I was like I don't know what to do.
Flamy Grant: I was like calling up friends.
Flamy Grant: I was like this feels like a moment, this feels like something's happening.
Flamy Grant: Should I?
Flamy Grant: What do I do?
Flamy Grant: And they were like girl, get a publicist, do it, just do it.
Flamy Grant: And I was like, okay, I don't even know how to do that, but somebody knew somebody, that kind of thing.
Flamy Grant: And so, yeah, I hired someone to help and the story got out to more outlets, media outlets picked it up.
Flamy Grant: I think I think PACE Magazine was like one of the first.
Flamy Grant: Like I was so excited about PACE Magazine because it's like the music nerd magazine, you know, and I'm like, yes, like that's the one I want to be in.
Flamy Grant: And then, like the next day we're like Stone Cold and I was like, oh, like shit myself Like yeah.
Flamy Grant: So you know, and from there it was like Newsweek and Entertainment Weekly and NPR, like all these outlets, picked up the story.
Flamy Grant: So it was a whirlwind.
Flamy Grant: I had to quit my job.
Flamy Grant: Two weeks early I was already planning to quit.
Flamy Grant: I had already put in my notice I was quitting the job and moving across the country and I was gonna start doing drag full-time regardless.
Flamy Grant: That was already in the works and then this happened and I'm very glad it did, because it's made it a lot easier to go into full-time drag work after having a little bit of a moment in national press.
Flamy Grant: So it's been very helpful.
Flamy Grant: Thank you, Sean Foyt.
Coach Alex Ray: Indeed Like what perfect timing for everything too.
Coach Alex Ray: Yeah, crazy so.
Flamy Grant: I mean, back in the day we would have said, oh, it's just such a god thing.
Coach Alex Ray: It's such a god thing.
Flamy Grant: Yes, all in his timing, absolutely Time and a place for everything, such a time as this.
Coach Alex Ray: Well, I'm just I'm so happy for you and I'm so glad that you were able to, that all of these things lined up so perfectly for you to really help launch your career into full-time drag.
Coach Alex Ray: It's just incredible and I'm so proud of you and so happy for you.
Flamy Grant: Yeah, thanks so much.
Coach Alex Ray: I'm curious, you know, for anyone listening, what lessons have you learned that you could share with them?
Coach Alex Ray: Anyone that's listening, who may have or may have been, is or will be facing online bullying or harassment yeah, and basically, if you have a smartphone, you will probably face online harassment at some point right in some.
Flamy Grant: Yeah.
Flamy Grant: Yeah, you know I've been dealing with it for a while and but like even before this whole thing was Sean Foyte I had some like success on TikTok and with things going viral, on TikTok also come trolls.
Flamy Grant: So I had been dealing with it for a while and I really had kind of worked through it to a point where I know when it's okay for me to respond and that for me, like that feels like I'm responding purely for the joy of it, like because I know it's gonna be a fun thing for me, right.
Flamy Grant: So I don't respond.
Flamy Grant: If I'm mad, like if it actually gets under my skin.
Flamy Grant: If somebody, if a troll, comes on and says something and it actually hurts or makes me angry or creates any kind of negative reaction whatsoever, I don't respond.
Flamy Grant: And I didn't always, like I used to go in like right away with my you know knee jerk reaction and that, and I learned pretty quickly that those usually don't go very well because I actually do.
Flamy Grant: I am invested in the outcome of it, right, I wanna win like, I wanna be right, I wanna shame them or put them in their place or whatever, and those are never great reasons, I don't think, to engage with another human being.
Flamy Grant: I think it has to be a bigger like you have to have.
Flamy Grant: I think one of two things have to happen.
Flamy Grant: It has to be either be like on behalf of a cause, or like a group of people or someone else, someone like not just yourself kind of thing, so that there's kind of that righteous anger response.
Flamy Grant: I think that that's something that can motivate us to do really good things in the world.
Flamy Grant: Or for me, I, you know, I just I think I did a lot of internal work to just like realize and remind myself daily that these are very inconsequential things that like these comments, like they're not, they're not reflective of anything true about me, because these people don't know me, they're only speaking, it can only be a projection, right, because they've seen you know two seconds of a video of me and they've created this whole narrative around who I am or what they believe about me, and I'm like that can only be a projection.
Flamy Grant: They know nothing about me, so they're speaking from whatever their own place of shame is or their own place of pain, and it's not about me.
Flamy Grant: So, but when it is for me, like the times I've, the times I choose to respond now, are usually One of those two things and, honestly, it's usually when I'm just there to have a little fun with it and I'm just completely detached from the outcome, like I don't care about winning with the person, so I can just be like Silly or subversive or whatever with it.
Flamy Grant: Yeah, which is kind of how I felt about the Sean thing because, honestly, like my friends were all Told me they're like, oh my gosh, like Sean foits coming for you, like, and I was like who?
Flamy Grant: Like I genuinely did not.
Flamy Grant: And I remembered hearing about this pastor in pandemic who is holding these worship services and when I realized that's what it was, I was like, oh okay, cool, but I didn't even realize at the time, I think, that he had like I think it's like a hundred million followers or something like that, something crazy, I know like how.
Flamy Grant: But so I just was.
Flamy Grant: I truly was detached from the outcome of that.
Flamy Grant: I wasn't trying to, I Wasn't looking at it as an opportunity, I wasn't looking at it as anything other than like how silly that you like Think this was the, this is what we're trying to do all along like no, no, no, we're just getting started like we're.
Flamy Grant: This is.
Flamy Grant: Yeah, it was just a, it was a flip little response that I was detached from.
Flamy Grant: So, yeah, that for me, I think, is a Just a good litmus test or barometer of like, like, how, how invested am I right now and am I?
Flamy Grant: Am I actually activated right now or my feelings?
Flamy Grant: Am I having negative responses and reactions to what's going on?
Flamy Grant: Or is this just something I can turn into an opportunity or turn into a teachable moment or honestly just have some fun with?
Flamy Grant: Like that's fine too, but yeah, I think, at the end of the day, just remember that most online bullying, especially coming from people that you don't know it, can't be anything other than a projection.
Flamy Grant: It can't actually be about you because they don't know you.
Flamy Grant: It's my one of my favorite Quotes.
Flamy Grant: I think it's from her book bossy pants, but Tina Fey was talking about the internet and you know the the flax she's taken on the internet for different things in her career and I can't I can't quote it exactly.
Flamy Grant: I should probably have it on a sticky note somewhere.
Flamy Grant: But she basically says in her very Tina Fey way like the internet is not a real thing that you have to obey, like, just like, let it go.
Flamy Grant: It's not real.
Flamy Grant: And I was like you're right, you don't have to obey strangers on the internet, you can just let them go.
Coach Alex Ray: Yeah, and my god, you know, all of that is just such a beautiful framework to.
Coach Alex Ray: I really like what you said about Projections and realizing that that it cannot be anything more than that.
Flamy Grant: Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray: I always talk about what I do In in my career and online, or really my life, as it's art and so no matter what people are going to have opinions about it, but what they're doing is they're just observing art and it's Triggering thoughts and feelings in them and then they're expressing that.
Coach Alex Ray: So I really never have any Control over that, because we don't have.
Coach Alex Ray: That's the point of art.
Flamy Grant: Yes, it just sparks thoughts and feelings, and it is, and it's going to be, an individual response for every single person.
Coach Alex Ray: So and I really there's so much wisdom in what you said about not responding in anger, because anger really does just blind us.
Coach Alex Ray: To.
Coach Alex Ray: You can't respond in a In a thoughtful way.
Coach Alex Ray: You're going you, even if you think, oh great, I can go after this person, like, if you are blindly angry, you are going to fuck up, you're gonna trip up, and then you're the one that looks like the idiot instead of Waiting until you got to a place where it's no longer so triggering for you.
Flamy Grant: So I just so.
Flamy Grant: I this morning I just rewatched to the video.
Flamy Grant: Have you seen that?
Flamy Grant: But the woman who like here in herself, like she makes a video about her trip to Beth and bed Was it Beth and body works or bed, bath and beyond one of them Okay, she's trying to get candles.
Flamy Grant: You haven't seen this one?
Flamy Grant: I don't think.
Flamy Grant: So tell me, gosh, it's like four minutes long and it's just like she went home and she set up her camera and like her good lighting and she's like I have a story to tell you and she just goes into this long saga about how mad she was that she called Bed, bath and Beyond to make sure they had this candle and she drove a really long way and she's somewhere up north, so it's like all the city names are funny I can't remember.
Flamy Grant: Okay, it's like I can't remember, but it's just like, like her tone and everything.
Flamy Grant: It's just, it's it's a perfect theatrical experience and she like the whole thing is just that she got there and they made a mistake, they didn't have the candles and she was mad that she drove all the way and she was like I deserve to be compensated for this and she just goes off the rails and she's, and the thing is she's like clearly thought this through and she's pretty measured and pretty like she doesn't lose control Really at any point.
Flamy Grant: A couple times she gets a little into it and starts, you know, yelling at the camera, but for the most part so she thinks that she has just like delivered this like scathing indictment of bed, bath and beyond.
Flamy Grant: And she, and in particular one Cashier that she talked to, called Jen, and every time she says Jen's name she does air quotes with her fingers, though Jen's like not her real name or something like it's.
Flamy Grant: So it's just like it.
Flamy Grant: You're watching this woman descend into absolute insanity over these candles that Someone just made an honest mistake over right and it's just the most delightful.
Flamy Grant: Like Shodden Freudic experience, but anyway.
Flamy Grant: But all that to say?
Flamy Grant: Like that is exactly that, like she thought she was like doing something and she's now the laughing stock, you know.
Flamy Grant: Like everybody watches that video and is like, oh my gosh, you're like a nightmare human and poor Jen at bed bath, and like we all feel bad for Jen.
Flamy Grant: Like you're trying to get her fired and we feel bad for her.
Flamy Grant: So, yeah, yeah, you can't, you cannot have a you can't.
Flamy Grant: Responding out of your your feels is just not a great move.
Flamy Grant: Like take the beats, take the day, whatever you need to like and come back to it.
Flamy Grant: And most likely, you'll come back to it and remember that the block button is your friend and you'll just block the person.
Flamy Grant: And that's what I end up doing most of the time with people who genuinely get to me like I just don't need that, I don't need your energy, I don't need you on my page.
Flamy Grant: Get out of here.
Coach Alex Ray: Yeah, yeah, love that.
Coach Alex Ray: Okay, I want to transition here a little bit into talking about your personal life outside of drag.
Coach Alex Ray: You are non-binary, I am.
Coach Alex Ray: Can you tell us a little bit about your journey?
Coach Alex Ray: What's it been like to understanding your queer identities?
Flamy Grant: Hmm, yeah, so my like, um, I don't even know.
Flamy Grant: I feel like we don't even talk about it in terms of sexual orientation or preferences anymore.
Flamy Grant: I feel like that's not what we say.
Flamy Grant: But I'm old, I'm sorry, I'm an old gay.
Flamy Grant: So, like my, my sexual, my sexual orientation, like you are not an old.
Flamy Grant: I mean when you have to like Google what the kids are saying, like when you have to get on urban dictionary.
Flamy Grant: I think you've crossed.
Flamy Grant: You've crossed a bridge, oh shit then I'm all too.
Flamy Grant: But that's the thing it like.
Flamy Grant: The world moves so fast and we grew up so fast now because we're also connected on social media, so whatever, it's great, I love learning from the kids, like I love it.
Flamy Grant: But for me, like my coming to terms with my Like sexual orientation, like identifying as gay, was like a decade long process.
Flamy Grant: In my 20s I like had to had to come to terms with just even being comfortable saying that about myself.
Flamy Grant: And then and I didn't start dating until I was 28.
Flamy Grant: I didn't, I didn't have sex until I was like 31, like I was a late bloomer and and all thanks to religious trauma and you know, indoctrinated shame from evangelicalism and all these things, unfortunately far too well.
Flamy Grant: But yeah, so I really hadn't explored gender identity or expression Until I started to think about drag more more seriously.
Flamy Grant: And so it was.
Flamy Grant: It was a couple years before pandemic that I really started to get interested in drag and I had been Like a casual observer for a while.
Flamy Grant: But you know, really like did the deep dive of binging every season of drag race and that kind of stuff and like 20 probably like 2018 and 2019, and and then Pandemic came around and I had I had gone out.
Flamy Grant: I think my first time in drag was Halloween of 2019.
Flamy Grant: I did a fun little witch moment because it's very easy to do drag on Halloween and it's safe and no one's gonna judge you Exactly, yeah, but it's also the gateway, as we know.
Flamy Grant: So I was one of the.
Flamy Grant: I was I'm a combination Halloween and quarantine Queen because, like I knew I liked it on at Halloween.
Flamy Grant: But it's not like I had the time.
Flamy Grant: I had a full-time job, I was in another band.
Flamy Grant: Like I wasn't gonna I was never going to like change my career and become a drag queen.
Flamy Grant: That was not in the cards for me but then you know, miss, miss Rona Locked us all at home and I had hours and hours of free time and I spent mine, you know, watching makeup tutorials and learning to do drag, and so it was that process for me that really opened my mind to oh, like, am I, am I gender diverse?
Flamy Grant: Like, do I have some fluidity going on in me?
Flamy Grant: I think maybe I do, and it was.
Flamy Grant: It was a wild thing to kind of discover Through like, through drag because, you know you're, I literally was doing it just in my bedroom by myself during pandemic like, like for fun and and and, honestly, for inner child work is what it ended up being for me, it was like we love your child work here.
Flamy Grant: Yes, mmm, mama, that that little kid, you know Just being able to hold the kid version of myself and say, hey, like all those times you got in trouble or you got shoot out for behaving in a certain way that was not befitting of a boy, or you know, messing in your mom's makeup or her closet, like, you're okay, that stuff was actually good.
Flamy Grant: Those impulses and instincts are you and they're not like your sin nature or your fallen state or any of that bullshit.
Flamy Grant: Yes, it's just you and you're coming back to yourself by doing these things.
Flamy Grant: So it was like that first year of drag was really just that for me and we were.
Flamy Grant: I was live streaming and as as we did during pandemic, so that's where I mean my first drag performances quote, unquote were we're on the internet?
Flamy Grant: I?
Coach Alex Ray: Love that.
Coach Alex Ray: How fun to have that for journey, because most drag queens were like fumbling through.
Coach Alex Ray: How do I do Something on the internet?
Coach Alex Ray: Yeah, and it wasn't working well for most of You've got the opposite experience.
Flamy Grant: You went from the figuring out the online first to yeah, yeah, coming in person and that was a fumble for me, like figuring out in person was like this is a whole different game, but yeah, it did.
Flamy Grant: It did just kind of give me insight into myself and how I Think I think so much of my anger actually came from having feeling compelled to conform to Traditionally masculine identities right, traditionally masculine stereotypes in the world, because that that wasn't me, it's not, it's not how, it's not my natural state, and so I was living in a very unnatural way, even, excuse me, even after coming out and being, you know, fully embracing my sexuality and, you know, getting married.
Flamy Grant: I got married in 2019.
Flamy Grant: So, like it's, you know, I've been out and proud for a while, but I had not identified that.
Flamy Grant: You know, there was this like Untended part of my soul that I had just been neglecting my whole entire life out of shame and out of, you know, being indoctrinated to neglect it, basically, and so it was really beautiful to Start writing songs as flamey and use, use that voice and just see myself.
Flamy Grant: You know, all art is just taking what's Inside us and manifesting it in some external form right, whether that sound or sculpture or paint or whatever and drag is no different.
Flamy Grant: It is an external manifestation of something that you're experiencing internally, and I Love that.
Flamy Grant: You know drag was.
Flamy Grant: It was such a gift for me to be able to learn more about who I am through that art form and Still you know every day getting to do that.
Coach Alex Ray: It's so beautiful.
Coach Alex Ray: Truly, thank you for sharing that with us.
Coach Alex Ray: Playing with things that are traditionally Assigned to the opposite gender, I think, is so helpful for anyone to just start understanding yourself more, because until you start breaking down those barriers especially if you're afraid of it, like I was, like you're not going to I Don't know really understand why you're afraid of it.
Coach Alex Ray: And then, if you're not afraid of it, great, play around with it, have fun, and if it's not for you, it's not for you, yeah.
Flamy Grant: But more likely than not, it's going to.
Flamy Grant: It's going to reveal to you the ways in which you are performing your gender right, even like you, as us, like speaking to you, it's a straight white man out there.
Flamy Grant: Like you're performing a percentage of the time right Like almost almost nobody is 100% John Wayne, right, like, right like you.
Flamy Grant: There are other things that you feel um, um, compelled to do or say or behave or speak like, or whatever, because it, it's an expectation that's been put on you because of, frankly, your genitalia and and I Think that that is a huge gift of exploring, just playing with you know, like put on nail polish, like just once in your life, and walk around for a day like as and I'm obviously speaking to a Cis, straight white- male dude, dude, right now, like put on nail polish and walk around and see, see how you feel, like, see what interactions it opens up for you and you know just little things that can help you then understand it's not going to turn everybody into a drag queen and frankly we don't want that because there's already enough competition out here among the Queens, but, um, but what it will do is it'll, it'll reveal to you that, oh, like I Could relax a little bit, like I don't have to work so hard to hustle for my acceptance in in my social circle and actually actually maybe like leaning into more authentic parts of myself that I tend to suppress Because I think other people are gonna judge me as being less masculine or less feminine, feminine or whatever.
Flamy Grant: Leaning into those things can like Make me a freer, happier, more whole person, which then just it.
Flamy Grant: That that's magic that we don't have words for, like we don't have Barometers for, but it does something in your relationships.
Flamy Grant: It opens up, it makes people trust you more deeply, it it lets other people then respond in kind and it frees them.
Flamy Grant: Like you become an agent of freedom for other folks.
Flamy Grant: Like it's a, it's nudge, it's alchemy and, yeah, I think everybody should deconstruct your gender, if not your faith, at least your gender.
Coach Alex Ray: I was literally going to loop it back to that.
Coach Alex Ray: I was like here we go, more deconstruction.
Coach Alex Ray: See, music wasn't the end goal.
Coach Alex Ray: We have many things to deconstruct, yeah.
Coach Alex Ray: Get enriched on Literally just getting started, baby.
Coach Alex Ray: Yes, oh my God.
Coach Alex Ray: I think another thing that it really can do is give you a lot of compassion for other people that are also putting on a performance, like when I go out for networking events or anytime that I'm leading a workshop, anytime that I am like on stage in air quotes, literally or figuratively, I dress all up.
Coach Alex Ray: I don't do a full face of makeup, I always do my eyes, because that's my favorite part of makeup.
Coach Alex Ray: I do like the eyes of the nipples of the face.
Flamy Grant: Sorry, I had to.
Coach Alex Ray: So I got to show off my face, nipples.
Coach Alex Ray: Yes, you did, because I love it and it's like a piece of art.
Coach Alex Ray: I love that.
Coach Alex Ray: It's art that also is only going to last for not even a whole day, like it's there and it's gone.
Coach Alex Ray: Like what truer expression of art?
Coach Alex Ray: It's like a sunset.
Coach Alex Ray: It's Every moment that goes by it's changing and then it's gone forever.
Coach Alex Ray: It's only in our memory.
Coach Alex Ray: So, anyway, I love art.
Coach Alex Ray: So then I'll dress up and heels.
Coach Alex Ray: And when I got into wearing heels through, drag was the gateway.
Coach Alex Ray: I did it for charity, you know, for the first time, and I had been dying to be able to like own heels, put on makeup and all this stuff, and that was the excuse.
Coach Alex Ray: But heels, the whole point of this fucking tangent I went on was heels and drag.
Coach Alex Ray: I was like, oh my God, I have a new, extremely heightened appreciation for drag queens after having to have my junk tucked up, my ass crack for several hours and then the Like wearing heels.
Coach Alex Ray: I was like my feet are on fire.
Coach Alex Ray: So to everyone that wears heels on the rag, like how and like I bow down right.
Flamy Grant: Absolutely, it's wild.
Flamy Grant: I've devised a way around it in which I, you know, I'm a singer-songwriter, so I'm always behind a guitar and a microphone, usually when I'm in drag, and I now have incorporated a stompbox into my set, so it's a pedal that you stomp on that mimics a bass drum, so I get a little percussion with my set button.
Flamy Grant: Now that it gives me the excuse to like wear flats on stage or like boots you know, short heel boots or whatever because you can't Like, you can't stomp on it in a stiletto.
Flamy Grant: It doesn't work.
Coach Alex Ray: So I figured out my loophole.
Flamy Grant: I love it.
Flamy Grant: Yes heels respect, much respect.
Flamy Grant: I still wear them but only for short periods of time.
Coach Alex Ray: And also like especially straight men.
Coach Alex Ray: You got to try some of this stuff just so you can have appreciation for the women who you're chasing and then potentially making them feel uncomfortable, like they already are physically so goddamn uncomfortable, and now you're making them emotionally uncomfortable, like just compassion.
Coach Alex Ray: There's so much room for compassion.
Flamy Grant: Absolutely.
Coach Alex Ray: I want to also ask you another question here.
Coach Alex Ray: Around your personal journey, how have you reconciled your faith and your queer identities?
Coach Alex Ray: Why not just give it all up?
Flamy Grant: That is a very good question and I think you might get a different answer for me depending on the day right.
Flamy Grant: There are days when I definitely want to give it all up and I may one day still, you know, like that, who knows what the future holds.
Flamy Grant: But why I met where I am meaning, the reason I released the record in the Christian genre, the reason I've kind of leaned into allowing myself to be called a Christian drag queen, even though it's complicated for me, you know.
Flamy Grant: But there's a handful of reasons.
Flamy Grant: I would say the biggest one is just purely representation matters.
Flamy Grant: You know the power of presence and I'm sure you can relate Like there were very few instances for me growing up of seeing anything positive associated with queerness, absolutely Even beyond that.
Flamy Grant: Just like I just didn't even know what queerness is growing up, you know, like I was so sheltered and so kept within our little evangelical subculture that it took a long time for even knew what, like the words gay and lesbian were.
Flamy Grant: So for me it's knowing that there are still families out there who are raising kids the way mine did, which for me was really difficult and hard, toxic, created mountains of shame that I had to work through later in life.
Flamy Grant: You know all of these things, everything we've been talking about so far, like stems from a fear and shame based religion.
Flamy Grant: That was high demand.
Flamy Grant: So knowing that there that's still the case for many kids who are coming up and knowing what it is to be queer, and knowing that there will always be queer kids coming up in the spaces, it feels important, it feels valuable to me, it feels like a thing I can offer the world.
Flamy Grant: To be someone who just, is loud and open and doesn't stays in the space for now rather than rather than desert it.
Flamy Grant: And to be clear, to be 100% clear.
Flamy Grant: I need people to know I say this all the time like I fully champion leaving.
Flamy Grant: I think that for a lot of people, leaving is the best option and it's so hard to heal in the place where you were harmed, yes, and so getting out is a really good thing for a lot of people.
Flamy Grant: And so, whatever you want to call it deconstruction, apostasy I called it apostasy when I did it because we didn't have the deconstruction term but like, follow your healing, follow whatever is going to heal you.
Flamy Grant: So that's the one side of it, right.
Flamy Grant: And then the other is that sometimes, for certain people with certain dispositions and I count myself among them I think that we can stay, like if we have the capacity to stay and the desire to stay and the knowledge that our staying is potentially going to save lives, like actually save lives, which that's a message I've gotten more than once now since all of this stuff blew up.
Flamy Grant: People who've slid into my DMs confessing suicidal thoughts or previous suicidal thoughts until literally hearing my music, which that's a humbling moment, like I never set out to write a song to save a life, a life other than my own.
Flamy Grant: But that's the beauty of art and telling our stories and being vulnerable and all of it is.
Flamy Grant: We can save more than our lives sometimes.
Flamy Grant: So, for some of us, I think staying can be a good path.
Coach Alex Ray: Congratulations.
Coach Alex Ray: You're the only one that's ever made me cry on my own podcast.
Flamy Grant: Oh no, and I hope they're starting to use.
Flamy Grant: So worth it.
Coach Alex Ray: Well, you know, a large my upbringing was the number one factor to me.
Coach Alex Ray: Attempting suicide, and I think that's really what you know.
Coach Alex Ray: I told you even before we started recording that like, for some reason, this question was like really like hitting an emotional spot for me.
Coach Alex Ray: It was like I'll probably get emotional for it.
Coach Alex Ray: Here we go, but you know, I there is something so beautiful to me about the art that you're creating and the way that you are being a queer voice in the space that I did not have a queer like superhero, you know, and I have worked through so much in therapy around my attempt, and for me then, you know, leaving the church was really the right decision.
Coach Alex Ray: It's still.
Coach Alex Ray: There's still positive memories.
Coach Alex Ray: Even though I have so much pain around my experiences in the church, I still have happy memories of a sense of community there.
Coach Alex Ray: Yeah, and what I, what I think is pulling so much emotion out of me here, is that what I see from you is this, this or what.
Coach Alex Ray: What you're activating in me is this feeling of like.
Coach Alex Ray: Okay, here's, like, all the good parts about the community that I experienced and that I've missed.
Flamy Grant: Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray: With the acceptance that I longed for my entire life.
Coach Alex Ray: I never felt like it and you deserved yeah.
Flamy Grant: Yeah, and it was stolen.
Flamy Grant: It was stolen from you, yeah.
Coach Alex Ray: I never felt like it was possible or acceptable or like anything would happen other than me being burned in hell and like ostracized so thank you, and that's what.
Flamy Grant: well, dear Rockham, thank you for making the space available to have this conversation.
Flamy Grant: I that's the thing that I think can be really hard for people who didn't maybe grow up in something similar to understand because, I get that a lot.
Flamy Grant: I get that question a lot like my God, why are you catering to this community that would, that doesn't give a shit about you, that wants you dead, or that you know is vilifying you in public or like casting uh, passing legislation against you?
Flamy Grant: Like why do you care what they think?
Flamy Grant: And I'm like it's not that you know it's, I'm not like, I'm not out here chasing an approval.
Flamy Grant: I'll never get it's.
Flamy Grant: There's so many layers and you touched on 18 of them just now in what you said.
Flamy Grant: But you know, like it's, it's, it's a real like we, it's a real part of our lives, like we lived good periods, good chunks of our lives and that was community for us and that was home and that was everything that.
Flamy Grant: The power of nostalgia.
Flamy Grant: Nowadays, you know, like, like I think we're more aware than ever of the power of nostalgia and that's why shows get rebooted and all this like yeah, it's, it's like it does something to you, like physiologically in your body, to have those connections back to your childhood and your upbringing.
Flamy Grant: And the other part of it is that we were raised being we were raised with that fear of what's going to happen to us if we ever leave.
Flamy Grant: What's gonna?
Flamy Grant: You know we're gonna.
Flamy Grant: I genuinely believed I would wind up unconscious in a gutter with a needle in my arm, like that was.
Flamy Grant: That was the only future available to me if I didn't follow the letter of the law that was prescribed.
Flamy Grant: Yeah, and so it's.
Flamy Grant: There's so much you have to work through to, to, and that is such an individual personal journey and why.
Flamy Grant: I would never, ever tell someone that they're, you know, not making the right choice by leaving or being selfish by leaving.
Flamy Grant: No, leave, like, be selfish, go, go, take care of yourself and put yourself first for the first time in your life, because I guarantee you, if you're brought up in evangelicalism, you didn't, you did not.
Flamy Grant: You never knew what it was like to care for yourself in any way.
Flamy Grant: And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's.
Flamy Grant: I wish we could have more, even just within our own community, more compassion for each other, for the ones who choose to stay, whatever that reason may be, or for the ones who choose to go.
Flamy Grant: Like, just like.
Flamy Grant: Let us all have our journeys and go where we need to go.
Coach Alex Ray: Yeah, so beautifully said.
Coach Alex Ray: All right, I want to switch gears here and talk about a much lighter note as we start to wrap things up here.
Coach Alex Ray: Tell us about like what?
Coach Alex Ray: What is your favorite song you've ever written or maybe that's also hard to choose Like?
Coach Alex Ray: Is there a song or a few songs that like really just like hit deep?
Flamy Grant: Yeah, it's very hard to choose because it is I'm.
Flamy Grant: I like I think it was Mindy Kaling who said like best friend is not a person, it's a tier, and I just like use that for everything.
Flamy Grant: Like I don't have a favorite one of anything, like I just have like a whole tier of favorites.
Flamy Grant: Like I have 18 favorite movies, you know, and they're, and they're all my number one favorite.
Flamy Grant: So it's kind of that way for my music to.
Flamy Grant: But I guess I'll just talk about there's a song on the record called Holy Ground.
Flamy Grant: That's kind of a what is the word I'm looking for?
Flamy Grant: It's not a B side, but it's just more of a.
Flamy Grant: It's a low expectations kind of song.
Flamy Grant: Right, like you're not expecting I don't know, like I didn't, I didn't even didn't even expect much from it.
Flamy Grant: When I recorded it I was like like maybe kind of filler, like is this a filler song?
Flamy Grant: Because because I, when I first wrote it, I didn't know what it was, I didn't know what it was about and I wrote it.
Flamy Grant: I actually think I wrote this whole thing before Flamy ever existed.
Flamy Grant: So it's one of the ones and there are a few songs on the record that I had started to write or had written prior to Flamy existing, and then revisited them with Flamy's voice, and I was like, oh, like this has been in here in me all along this whole time.
Flamy Grant: This voice, this person, this character, Flamy, has been trying to get out and speak and have her moment.
Flamy Grant: And so that's one of this, it's one of those songs for me, holy Ground, and it's just.
Flamy Grant: It ended up being my favorite track on the record, I think, and again, favorite being the tear of the year.
Flamy Grant: For so many reasons.
Flamy Grant: I just think the production on it is amazing.
Flamy Grant: The percussionist we had on that song, Noah Heldman, just like did this trance, like thing that just puts me like, puts my whole body into just like a I don't know meditative, at ease posture and almost immediately, and it's just about like nature and like being connected to the earth and just my experience with that.
Flamy Grant: But what it ended up feeling like was just like the right song for a psychedelic journey.
Flamy Grant: And you know so my producer wanted to end.
Flamy Grant: It just has all these ooze at the end that go on and on forever.
Flamy Grant: And my producer, like, wanted to end it way earlier than I did and I was like, listen, I'm putting, I'm putting my stiletto down.
Flamy Grant: We are dragging this out because I want people to have a full opportunity to go on whatever journey they need to go on when they listen to this song.
Flamy Grant: So it's like, put that one on your psychedelic playlist.
Flamy Grant: I love it, but it's just, yeah, it's one of my favorites and yeah, I hope it puts you at ease as much as it does me.
Flamy Grant: That's my hope for that song.
Coach Alex Ray: What tell us a little bit about the creative process, like what is, what is your creative process?
Flamy Grant: I wish I could say that like I wake up every morning and I do my morning pages and then I invoke the muse, and but it's not like that girl it is no.
Flamy Grant: It is whenever I can find the fucking time, like I, if I can steal away for a little few moments to strum some chords and jot down some lyrics or whatever it's.
Flamy Grant: I mean it is being open, it's just, it is trying to be open to inspiration whenever and wherever it may strike, because it sometimes she comes in an inopportune moments and you just got to be ready.
Flamy Grant: But it's also, I think, being like, like it's just important to create the space as well, like I am Again, I'm not great about getting up and journaling and all of this stuff you know, regularly or consistently, but I do know that if I don't carve out time somewhere in my schedule, like I'm not giving an opportunity to creativity to blossom, right, like she'll, she'll choose the next person, like the muse will move on to the next person if I, if I hold my hand up to her long enough.
Flamy Grant: So it's it's a mix of being responsive to the moment and then also creating the moment.
Flamy Grant: And I don't know, I've been writing songs since I was nine and it's just now feels like it's just as much a part of me as anything, you know, brushing my teeth, like it's just, it's just a thing I have to do and, um, yeah, I, I love it.
Flamy Grant: I'm grateful for the opportunity to write songs that people want to hear, so it's, it's great.
Coach Alex Ray: And what made you decide to combine music and drag, songwriting and drag?
Flamy Grant: Yeah, um, honestly it was.
Flamy Grant: It never really dawned on me, even even at the beginning part of pandemic.
Flamy Grant: When I was, I was living with two other musicians, we were house sharing and so we would all live stream together and we would do concerts and I would show up to these concerts and drag and I would they'd mostly be covers Like we would just cover songs and drink for two hours on a Thursday night with anybody else who wanted to log on with us and even at that point I was still like blithely unaware of the potential or possibility of like actually doing doing being a drag musician, right, like that was.
Flamy Grant: I don't know if there was a specific moment, but I do know that I it was when I started to see people's responses and reactions to what I was doing online and the comment that I got over and over again was, I feel, seen and I feel safe.
Flamy Grant: When Flamy does what Flamy does, and I was like, oh well, that is exactly if I have a mission or a ministry or a calling or whatever you want to name it Like, that's it.
Flamy Grant: It's to make people feel seen and safe.
Flamy Grant: And so that was when I was like maybe I should write a song as Flamy and see what that feels like.
Flamy Grant: And lo and behold, you know I got a whole album out of it and I'm still writing as Flamy and there'll be another album next year.
Flamy Grant: And yeah, it's, it's wild, but I am so grateful that the universe showed me this path.
Coach Alex Ray: I am so excited.
Coach Alex Ray: Another album next year, yes, oh my God.
Coach Alex Ray: Well, before we close now, I would love to hear what do you want to share with everyone, what is coming up, what's exciting in your world, and where can they find and follow you?
Flamy Grant: Well, I'm really easy to find.
Flamy Grant: I'm the only Flamy Grant out there.
Flamy Grant: It's just like Amy Grant, but with a little flame on the front.
Flamy Grant: And yeah, my, my.
Flamy Grant: If you go to my website, flamygrant.
Flamy Grant: com, you'll see all of my upcoming shows.
Flamy Grant: I am touring a lot right now because I'm just I'm basically saying yes to everything and also seeking out touring opportunities, so this is my full-time job.
Flamy Grant: I'm trying to make it work, so you will find me very likely on the road near you at some point over the next few months.
Flamy Grant: So come see me.
Flamy Grant: And yeah, like I said, we're I'm dropping a new single this month, at the end of October, for spooky season.
Coach Alex Ray: Yes.
Flamy Grant: Yes, it's called fortune teller, so I'm not sure when this will be out, but check and see if fortune teller is out.
Flamy Grant: And then after that, yeah, we've been working on a new record with a team that I'm putting together and very excited about, and it probably won't be out until, I mean, a year from now to be, to be honest, we'll be recording in the spring, and then there's just a lot of work that goes in after that.
Flamy Grant: But yeah, but it's yeah.
Flamy Grant: Other than that, catch me on the road girl.
Coach Alex Ray: Perfect, all right, and we'll have all of that linked in the show notes.
Coach Alex Ray: They can find everything your tour dates and everything on your website, right?
Coach Alex Ray: Yes, absolutely Perfect, all right.
Coach Alex Ray: Any final closing thoughts that you'd like to share with anyone?
Flamy Grant: Hmm, maybe just be a be a Shane Slayer.
Flamy Grant: Look, I can't even say it, but it's the same slab baby.
Flamy Grant: We've got enough shame in the world, we need you to slay it.
Flamy Grant: Yeah, that's all.
Coach Alex Ray: I love it.
Coach Alex Ray: Flamy Grant everyone, thank you so much for being here with me today.
Coach Alex Ray: Thanks for sharing your wisdom and your insights and your vulnerability.
Coach Alex Ray: It's just been an absolute pleasure and delight getting to know more of you today and learning from your experiences.
Flamy Grant: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Flamy Grant: This is absolutely delightful.
Coach Alex Ray: You're so welcome.
Coach Alex Ray: All right, everyone.
Coach Alex Ray: I will see you on the next episode.
Coach Alex Ray: Bye.