WEBVTT 00:00:25.449 --> 00:00:27.372 Hello, my unicorns. 00:00:27.372 --> 00:00:30.718 Welcome back to another special guest episode. 00:00:30.718 --> 00:00:35.670 Today I am so excited to have with me Flamy Grant. 00:00:35.670 --> 00:00:41.095 She's a shameslaying, hip-swaying, singing, songwriting, drag queen making Christian music. 00:00:41.095 --> 00:00:50.463 That speaks directly to her experience as a queer person and you're going to just learn all the most amazing tips from her today. 00:00:50.463 --> 00:00:54.006 So welcome, Flamy, to the Queer Confidence podcast. 00:00:54.831 --> 00:00:55.313 Thank you. 00:00:55.313 --> 00:00:58.100 Tips on tips, I'm really happy to be here. 00:00:59.891 --> 00:01:01.173 I'm so happy to have you. 00:01:01.173 --> 00:01:06.444 Also, I'm so proud of myself for not totally fumbling your tongue twister intro. 00:01:06.870 --> 00:01:07.272 I know. 00:01:07.272 --> 00:01:09.177 I didn't make it easy, but you nailed it. 00:01:09.177 --> 00:01:10.060 You nailed it. 00:01:11.951 --> 00:01:12.373 Oh, my God. 00:01:12.373 --> 00:01:15.977 Well, I think we got to start with the. 00:01:15.977 --> 00:01:17.280 We got to start with the obvious. 00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:37.865 For anyone that knows you, they know you've topped the Christians and by that we mean you are the first drag queen to ever top the iTunes single Christian singles and iTunes Christian albums, and your album was there for a while. 00:01:39.213 --> 00:01:40.917 It was there for nine days. 00:01:40.917 --> 00:01:42.120 I topped for nine days. 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:43.302 You know how exhausting that is. 00:01:43.302 --> 00:01:48.352 I can't even imagine Me neither. 00:01:48.352 --> 00:01:49.957 This is the first time I've ever topped anything. 00:01:49.957 --> 00:01:51.403 So there you go. 00:01:54.411 --> 00:01:55.073 Oh, my God. 00:01:55.073 --> 00:01:57.981 Okay, well, tell us about, tell us a little bit about the journey. 00:01:57.981 --> 00:02:01.490 What was that like, being being on top for so long? 00:02:03.772 --> 00:02:06.795 It was wild and very unexpected. 00:02:06.795 --> 00:02:17.966 My hope, with this whole, all the shenanigans that happened around, this was just a chart at all on the Christian charts and so I thought that would be a win. 00:02:17.966 --> 00:02:24.441 Like, let's just have a drag queen, like show up on the Christian charts period anywhere in the top top 100, top 200. 00:02:24.441 --> 00:02:24.921 I don't care. 00:02:24.921 --> 00:02:29.275 Just to be able to say that there was a drag queen on the Christian charts would be huge. 00:02:29.275 --> 00:02:53.275 But I, the sales caught wind girl, I don't know Like people lashed on to the story and TikTok was very good to me and folks went out and downloaded the record, they downloaded the single and I mean within 24 hours both had hit number one and then, yeah, like we said, the album stayed there for quite a while. 00:02:53.275 --> 00:03:00.365 I was the literal face of Christian music on iTunes for over a week, which is crazy, crazy. 00:03:01.432 --> 00:03:06.443 I kept going on to check and I just every time I was like please be there, please be there please be there, yes. 00:03:06.443 --> 00:03:10.775 So crazy, oh my gosh. 00:03:10.775 --> 00:03:24.632 It was so fun to see you there and it was also really funny when the I found out about it through Instagram, I think, like the Hillcrest account posted oh yeah, yeah. 00:03:24.632 --> 00:03:26.534 And I was like, oh my God. 00:03:26.534 --> 00:03:31.864 And then I started looking into you and I was like, oh my God, I met her. 00:03:32.710 --> 00:03:35.477 Hold on, we did a whole gig together. 00:03:35.496 --> 00:03:40.854 We had a conversation, we hung out backstage. 00:03:40.854 --> 00:03:46.412 Yeah, me and my underwear, you and your like in your full In my leotard. 00:03:46.412 --> 00:03:49.056 Yes, you were in your leotard. 00:03:49.056 --> 00:03:53.503 You were in your leopard print rainbow leotard, my Lisa Frank fantasy. 00:03:53.871 --> 00:03:59.800 Yes, and Bervain made that for me in the Palm Springs and I wear that any chance I get. 00:04:00.281 --> 00:04:01.562 It's so gorgeous. 00:04:01.562 --> 00:04:29.899 Well, for those that don't really know the drama that led to you topping the charts, because I really think that that was also like a big reason why I wanted to have you on the podcast, because the way that you showed up, I think, is a way that all of our unicorns here can live, all of our unicorns here can learn from and really improve their confidence in how they might address things themselves. 00:04:29.899 --> 00:04:33.543 So let's talk about Sean. 00:04:35.689 --> 00:04:38.639 It sounds like a terrible, like HBO miniseries title. 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:43.951 It really does Well. 00:04:43.951 --> 00:04:50.822 So yeah, Sean Foyt is the person of interest at the moment and if you don't know who, this is good for you. 00:04:51.021 --> 00:04:51.423 If you do. 00:04:52.930 --> 00:05:07.699 If you do, it means you probably caught wind of his name, either either through this story, which made national headlines, or, more likely, a couple of years prior in the middle of pandemic Sean Foyt, who is a self-described Mago worship leader. 00:05:07.699 --> 00:05:14.160 Whatever that means, it sounds culty and horrifying. 00:05:15.810 --> 00:05:37.718 He was the one going around during pandemic and holding these big worship services out in public with just hordes of people unmasked, while the rest of us were like kind of watching on in horror and saying, ok, cool, so like what percentage of that crowd is going to be dead in a month, like that's, that's that's how this disease is working right now. 00:05:37.798 --> 00:05:51.634 So anyway, sean, you know just, he just came for me on Twitter, as all as people do, but it was in a in response to some work I had done. 00:05:51.634 --> 00:06:05.379 I had collaborated with another musician, derek Webb, who back in the day was in a big Christian band that was called Caidman's Call, and by back in the day I mean when I was coming up in youth group in church youth group. 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:17.963 So the 90s and early 2000s and Derek has, you know, since had a solo career and is a really great guy, good ally and a good friend to me, and so we had collaborated on some music. 00:06:17.963 --> 00:06:47.225 And Sean Foyt saw that collaboration and said, well, this, this is the I think he says, the end game and goal of deconstruction, which, if you don't know what that word is, it's just kind of the buzzword right now for, like, looking at your inherited belief systems, ie religion, like, like looking at your religion being like, okay, this is what was handed to me and do I actually believe it and is it valuable and is it good or is it doing more harm, those kinds of questions. 00:06:47.225 --> 00:06:52.276 And so Sean was like, well, this is the end goal of deconstruction. 00:06:52.276 --> 00:06:58.514 A drag queen collaborating with a Christian musician, blah blah, blah, blah, and which I know right. 00:06:58.554 --> 00:07:01.680 Pausing on that for a moment is hilarious. 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:02.721 That that's like. 00:07:03.670 --> 00:07:07.956 That was that was what we were working towards that we have made it. 00:07:08.076 --> 00:07:11.800 Y'all done, done, deconstruction over everyone. 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:12.862 Go back to what you were doing. 00:07:15.550 --> 00:07:17.516 This was the end goal and now we can chill. 00:07:17.516 --> 00:07:22.694 I know, just like crazy, so much crazy in the world. 00:07:22.694 --> 00:07:30.983 But anyway, you know I am a drag queen and I do deal with online trolls on the reg. 00:07:30.983 --> 00:07:37.161 So I just responded cutely oh baby, no, and cool, we're just getting started. 00:07:37.161 --> 00:07:47.978 And Sean came back and said well, good for us, nobody listens to you or cares what you do, which is like the cat-iest thing. 00:07:47.978 --> 00:07:53.295 Right, like that is such a like that's mean, that is Rachel McAdams and mean girls. 00:07:53.336 --> 00:08:00.617 Like like okay, honestly, if you're going to come for a drag queen, you've got to have some creative clackbacks. 00:08:00.870 --> 00:08:01.072 You do. 00:08:01.990 --> 00:08:02.170 Like. 00:08:02.170 --> 00:08:03.454 No one likes you. 00:08:03.535 --> 00:08:17.714 Anyway is just just get ready and I would like to think that maybe Sean will have learned his lesson by now, because I said, oh really, no one cares. 00:08:17.714 --> 00:08:25.480 No one, sean, and you know, to be fair, I did not have a big Twitter following at the time. 00:08:25.480 --> 00:08:31.281 So he probably like because this is where this exchange happened was on Twitter or, excuse me, x, whatever, elon. 00:08:31.281 --> 00:08:42.276 So he probably looked at my Twitter following and was like, oh well, this person's inconsequential, but that's because I hate Twitter and never invested any time in it. 00:08:42.276 --> 00:08:46.860 But I did have quite a decent following on TikTok. 00:08:46.860 --> 00:08:50.179 So that's where I went and I said, hey pals, guess what? 00:08:50.179 --> 00:08:51.533 This thing just happened. 00:08:51.533 --> 00:08:54.100 And here's what else is in play. 00:08:54.329 --> 00:08:56.798 I have a record that I released last year. 00:08:56.798 --> 00:09:06.635 It is already sitting there in the Christian genre, because that's the genre I put it in when I chose to release my independent album and it had done fine. 00:09:06.635 --> 00:09:11.816 I was really pleased with the performance of my record as an independent first time artist. 00:09:11.816 --> 00:09:32.312 I've released music in the past under other names, but this was Flamy Grant's first record and you know it had done respectably, and so I was like I would love to see if there is a chance that I just put out the play on TikTok, if there's a chance we could get this record to chart on the Christian charts. 00:09:33.229 --> 00:09:38.614 And because it's there, I have a song that is quote unquote a worship song. 00:09:38.614 --> 00:09:45.619 Like there's a lot to talk about in terms of what that means for me and the song in particular, but like it is, it's a worship song. 00:09:45.619 --> 00:09:47.636 I wrote it for the church I used to be a part of. 00:09:47.636 --> 00:09:50.998 And what if we got that song? 00:09:50.998 --> 00:10:03.076 What if we got a worship song by a drag queen to chart after a worship leader a Maga worship leader like came for me online and people really liked that narrative and I kind of suspected they would, which is why I rolled the dice. 00:10:03.076 --> 00:10:06.816 But wow, I never expected that it would. 00:10:06.816 --> 00:10:08.534 Yeah, just do what it did. 00:10:08.534 --> 00:10:09.131 It was crazy. 00:10:10.029 --> 00:10:13.399 Yeah, you kind of like exploded there over the. 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:21.078 It was like a how many days was it between Twitter and the Twitter exchange and blowing up on iTunes. 00:10:21.690 --> 00:10:22.915 Literally the next day. 00:10:23.250 --> 00:10:24.434 Like it wasn't even. 00:10:25.009 --> 00:10:27.638 Yeah, it wasn't even a full 24 hours, oh my God. 00:10:28.209 --> 00:10:33.259 Yeah, so what an emotional rollercoaster, I imagine. 00:10:33.769 --> 00:10:36.596 It was wild, it was so I was like I don't know what to do. 00:10:36.596 --> 00:10:38.215 I was like calling up friends. 00:10:38.215 --> 00:10:42.175 I was like this feels like a moment, this feels like something's happening. 00:10:42.175 --> 00:10:42.550 Should I? 00:10:42.550 --> 00:10:43.495 What do I do? 00:10:43.495 --> 00:10:47.854 And they were like girl, get a publicist, do it, just do it. 00:10:47.854 --> 00:10:53.377 And I was like, okay, I don't even know how to do that, but somebody knew somebody, that kind of thing. 00:10:53.377 --> 00:11:02.191 And so, yeah, I hired someone to help and the story got out to more outlets, media outlets picked it up. 00:11:02.191 --> 00:11:06.179 I think I think PACE Magazine was like one of the first. 00:11:06.179 --> 00:11:13.817 Like I was so excited about PACE Magazine because it's like the music nerd magazine, you know, and I'm like, yes, like that's the one I want to be in. 00:11:13.817 --> 00:11:20.000 And then, like the next day we're like Stone Cold and I was like, oh, like shit myself Like yeah. 00:11:20.169 --> 00:11:28.957 So you know, and from there it was like Newsweek and Entertainment Weekly and NPR, like all these outlets, picked up the story. 00:11:28.957 --> 00:11:32.078 So it was a whirlwind. 00:11:32.078 --> 00:11:33.453 I had to quit my job. 00:11:33.453 --> 00:11:37.557 Two weeks early I was already planning to quit. 00:11:37.557 --> 00:11:45.000 I had already put in my notice I was quitting the job and moving across the country and I was gonna start doing drag full-time regardless. 00:11:45.000 --> 00:12:00.261 That was already in the works and then this happened and I'm very glad it did, because it's made it a lot easier to go into full-time drag work after having a little bit of a moment in national press. 00:12:00.261 --> 00:12:01.433 So it's been very helpful. 00:12:01.909 --> 00:12:02.592 Thank you, Sean Foyt. 00:12:04.132 --> 00:12:07.737 Indeed Like what perfect timing for everything too. 00:12:07.737 --> 00:12:10.076 Yeah, crazy so. 00:12:10.549 --> 00:12:13.635 I mean, back in the day we would have said, oh, it's just such a god thing. 00:12:13.809 --> 00:12:15.215 It's such a god thing. 00:12:16.031 --> 00:12:24.573 Yes, all in his timing, absolutely Time and a place for everything, such a time as this. 00:12:28.509 --> 00:12:41.613 Well, I'm just I'm so happy for you and I'm so glad that you were able to, that all of these things lined up so perfectly for you to really help launch your career into full-time drag. 00:12:41.613 --> 00:12:46.094 It's just incredible and I'm so proud of you and so happy for you. 00:12:46.769 --> 00:12:47.693 Yeah, thanks so much. 00:12:48.709 --> 00:12:56.319 I'm curious, you know, for anyone listening, what lessons have you learned that you could share with them? 00:12:56.319 --> 00:13:11.238 Anyone that's listening, who may have or may have been, is or will be facing online bullying or harassment yeah, and basically, if you have a smartphone, you will probably face online harassment at some point right in some. 00:13:11.298 --> 00:13:11.479 Yeah. 00:13:11.479 --> 00:13:28.875 Yeah, you know I've been dealing with it for a while and but like even before this whole thing was Sean Foyte I had some like success on TikTok and with things going viral, on TikTok also come trolls. 00:13:28.875 --> 00:13:55.436 So I had been dealing with it for a while and I really had kind of worked through it to a point where I know when it's okay for me to respond and that for me, like that feels like I'm responding purely for the joy of it, like because I know it's gonna be a fun thing for me, right. 00:13:55.436 --> 00:13:56.974 So I don't respond. 00:13:56.974 --> 00:13:59.976 If I'm mad, like if it actually gets under my skin. 00:13:59.976 --> 00:14:07.592 If somebody, if a troll, comes on and says something and it actually hurts or makes me angry or creates any kind of negative reaction whatsoever, I don't respond. 00:14:07.592 --> 00:14:19.433 And I didn't always, like I used to go in like right away with my you know knee jerk reaction and that, and I learned pretty quickly that those usually don't go very well because I actually do. 00:14:19.433 --> 00:14:32.876 I am invested in the outcome of it, right, I wanna win like, I wanna be right, I wanna shame them or put them in their place or whatever, and those are never great reasons, I don't think, to engage with another human being. 00:14:32.876 --> 00:14:40.199 I think it has to be a bigger like you have to have. 00:14:40.199 --> 00:14:42.135 I think one of two things have to happen. 00:14:42.135 --> 00:14:55.181 It has to be either be like on behalf of a cause, or like a group of people or someone else, someone like not just yourself kind of thing, so that there's kind of that righteous anger response. 00:14:55.181 --> 00:14:59.294 I think that that's something that can motivate us to do really good things in the world. 00:14:59.294 --> 00:15:34.975 Or for me, I, you know, I just I think I did a lot of internal work to just like realize and remind myself daily that these are very inconsequential things that like these comments, like they're not, they're not reflective of anything true about me, because these people don't know me, they're only speaking, it can only be a projection, right, because they've seen you know two seconds of a video of me and they've created this whole narrative around who I am or what they believe about me, and I'm like that can only be a projection. 00:15:34.975 --> 00:15:43.838 They know nothing about me, so they're speaking from whatever their own place of shame is or their own place of pain, and it's not about me. 00:15:43.838 --> 00:16:04.179 So, but when it is for me, like the times I've, the times I choose to respond now, are usually One of those two things and, honestly, it's usually when I'm just there to have a little fun with it and I'm just completely detached from the outcome, like I don't care about winning with the person, so I can just be like Silly or subversive or whatever with it. 00:16:04.179 --> 00:16:15.544 Yeah, which is kind of how I felt about the Sean thing because, honestly, like my friends were all Told me they're like, oh my gosh, like Sean foits coming for you, like, and I was like who? 00:16:15.544 --> 00:16:16.807 Like I genuinely did not. 00:16:17.496 --> 00:16:33.462 And I remembered hearing about this pastor in pandemic who is holding these worship services and when I realized that's what it was, I was like, oh okay, cool, but I didn't even realize at the time, I think, that he had like I think it's like a hundred million followers or something like that, something crazy, I know like how. 00:16:33.462 --> 00:16:37.457 But so I just was. 00:16:37.457 --> 00:16:39.543 I truly was detached from the outcome of that. 00:16:39.543 --> 00:16:54.620 I wasn't trying to, I Wasn't looking at it as an opportunity, I wasn't looking at it as anything other than like how silly that you like Think this was the, this is what we're trying to do all along like no, no, no, we're just getting started like we're. 00:16:54.620 --> 00:16:55.162 This is. 00:16:55.162 --> 00:16:59.762 Yeah, it was just a, it was a flip little response that I was detached from. 00:16:59.762 --> 00:17:09.777 So, yeah, that for me, I think, is a Just a good litmus test or barometer of like, like, how, how invested am I right now and am I? 00:17:09.777 --> 00:17:12.163 Am I actually activated right now or my feelings? 00:17:12.163 --> 00:17:15.295 Am I having negative responses and reactions to what's going on? 00:17:15.295 --> 00:17:22.406 Or is this just something I can turn into an opportunity or turn into a teachable moment or honestly just have some fun with? 00:17:22.406 --> 00:17:36.414 Like that's fine too, but yeah, I think, at the end of the day, just remember that most online bullying, especially coming from people that you don't know it, can't be anything other than a projection. 00:17:36.554 --> 00:17:39.925 It can't actually be about you because they don't know you. 00:17:39.925 --> 00:17:45.317 It's my one of my favorite Quotes. 00:17:45.317 --> 00:17:59.104 I think it's from her book bossy pants, but Tina Fey was talking about the internet and you know the the flax she's taken on the internet for different things in her career and I can't I can't quote it exactly. 00:17:59.104 --> 00:18:01.182 I should probably have it on a sticky note somewhere. 00:18:01.182 --> 00:18:10.000 But she basically says in her very Tina Fey way like the internet is not a real thing that you have to obey, like, just like, let it go. 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:11.024 It's not real. 00:18:11.024 --> 00:18:18.249 And I was like you're right, you don't have to obey strangers on the internet, you can just let them go. 00:18:19.616 --> 00:18:28.230 Yeah, and my god, you know, all of that is just such a beautiful framework to. 00:18:28.230 --> 00:18:36.365 I really like what you said about Projections and realizing that that it cannot be anything more than that. 00:18:37.006 --> 00:18:37.086 Yeah. 00:18:37.246 --> 00:18:56.172 I always talk about what I do In in my career and online, or really my life, as it's art and so no matter what people are going to have opinions about it, but what they're doing is they're just observing art and it's Triggering thoughts and feelings in them and then they're expressing that. 00:18:56.172 --> 00:19:01.188 So I really never have any Control over that, because we don't have. 00:19:01.188 --> 00:19:02.373 That's the point of art. 00:19:02.393 --> 00:19:10.068 Yes, it just sparks thoughts and feelings, and it is, and it's going to be, an individual response for every single person. 00:19:10.088 --> 00:19:18.408 So and I really there's so much wisdom in what you said about not responding in anger, because anger really does just blind us. 00:19:18.408 --> 00:19:19.096 To. 00:19:19.096 --> 00:19:24.300 You can't respond in a In a thoughtful way. 00:19:24.300 --> 00:19:44.645 You're going you, even if you think, oh great, I can go after this person, like, if you are blindly angry, you are going to fuck up, you're gonna trip up, and then you're the one that looks like the idiot instead of Waiting until you got to a place where it's no longer so triggering for you. 00:19:44.685 --> 00:19:46.873 So I just so. 00:19:46.873 --> 00:19:49.302 I this morning I just rewatched to the video. 00:19:49.302 --> 00:19:50.327 Have you seen that? 00:19:50.327 --> 00:20:02.134 But the woman who like here in herself, like she makes a video about her trip to Beth and bed Was it Beth and body works or bed, bath and beyond one of them Okay, she's trying to get candles. 00:20:02.134 --> 00:20:03.423 You haven't seen this one? 00:20:03.423 --> 00:20:03.967 I don't think. 00:20:04.028 --> 00:20:28.704 So tell me, gosh, it's like four minutes long and it's just like she went home and she set up her camera and like her good lighting and she's like I have a story to tell you and she just goes into this long saga about how mad she was that she called Bed, bath and Beyond to make sure they had this candle and she drove a really long way and she's somewhere up north, so it's like all the city names are funny I can't remember. 00:20:29.106 --> 00:20:32.914 Okay, it's like I can't remember, but it's just like, like her tone and everything. 00:20:32.974 --> 00:20:57.476 It's just, it's it's a perfect theatrical experience and she like the whole thing is just that she got there and they made a mistake, they didn't have the candles and she was mad that she drove all the way and she was like I deserve to be compensated for this and she just goes off the rails and she's, and the thing is she's like clearly thought this through and she's pretty measured and pretty like she doesn't lose control Really at any point. 00:20:57.476 --> 00:21:09.825 A couple times she gets a little into it and starts, you know, yelling at the camera, but for the most part so she thinks that she has just like delivered this like scathing indictment of bed, bath and beyond. 00:21:09.825 --> 00:21:21.567 And she, and in particular one Cashier that she talked to, called Jen, and every time she says Jen's name she does air quotes with her fingers, though Jen's like not her real name or something like it's. 00:21:21.567 --> 00:21:23.797 So it's just like it. 00:21:23.797 --> 00:21:35.166 You're watching this woman descend into absolute insanity over these candles that Someone just made an honest mistake over right and it's just the most delightful. 00:21:35.508 --> 00:21:40.499 Like Shodden Freudic experience, but anyway. 00:21:40.499 --> 00:21:41.580 But all that to say? 00:21:41.580 --> 00:21:49.262 Like that is exactly that, like she thought she was like doing something and she's now the laughing stock, you know. 00:21:49.262 --> 00:21:57.734 Like everybody watches that video and is like, oh my gosh, you're like a nightmare human and poor Jen at bed bath, and like we all feel bad for Jen. 00:21:57.974 --> 00:22:01.243 Like you're trying to get her fired and we feel bad for her. 00:22:01.243 --> 00:22:07.182 So, yeah, yeah, you can't, you cannot have a you can't. 00:22:07.182 --> 00:22:11.163 Responding out of your your feels is just not a great move. 00:22:11.163 --> 00:22:16.684 Like take the beats, take the day, whatever you need to like and come back to it. 00:22:16.684 --> 00:22:21.626 And most likely, you'll come back to it and remember that the block button is your friend and you'll just block the person. 00:22:21.626 --> 00:22:29.661 And that's what I end up doing most of the time with people who genuinely get to me like I just don't need that, I don't need your energy, I don't need you on my page. 00:22:29.661 --> 00:22:30.783 Get out of here. 00:22:31.445 --> 00:22:34.417 Yeah, yeah, love that. 00:22:34.417 --> 00:22:42.512 Okay, I want to transition here a little bit into talking about your personal life outside of drag. 00:22:42.512 --> 00:22:45.140 You are non-binary, I am. 00:22:45.140 --> 00:22:48.583 Can you tell us a little bit about your journey? 00:22:48.583 --> 00:22:51.815 What's it been like to understanding your queer identities? 00:22:52.396 --> 00:22:58.761 Hmm, yeah, so my like, um, I don't even know. 00:22:58.761 --> 00:23:03.115 I feel like we don't even talk about it in terms of sexual orientation or preferences anymore. 00:23:03.115 --> 00:23:04.358 I feel like that's not what we say. 00:23:04.358 --> 00:23:06.044 But I'm old, I'm sorry, I'm an old gay. 00:23:06.044 --> 00:23:10.986 So, like my, my sexual, my sexual orientation, like you are not an old. 00:23:10.986 --> 00:23:19.575 I mean when you have to like Google what the kids are saying, like when you have to get on urban dictionary. 00:23:19.575 --> 00:23:21.319 I think you've crossed. 00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:23.986 You've crossed a bridge, oh shit then I'm all too. 00:23:26.955 --> 00:23:28.019 But that's the thing it like. 00:23:28.019 --> 00:23:36.265 The world moves so fast and we grew up so fast now because we're also connected on social media, so whatever, it's great, I love learning from the kids, like I love it. 00:23:36.265 --> 00:23:45.871 But for me, like my coming to terms with my Like sexual orientation, like identifying as gay, was like a decade long process. 00:23:45.871 --> 00:23:51.014 In my 20s I like had to had to come to terms with just even being comfortable saying that about myself. 00:23:51.014 --> 00:23:53.803 And then and I didn't start dating until I was 28. 00:23:53.803 --> 00:24:10.501 I didn't, I didn't have sex until I was like 31, like I was a late bloomer and and all thanks to religious trauma and you know, indoctrinated shame from evangelicalism and all these things, unfortunately far too well. 00:24:10.501 --> 00:24:25.855 But yeah, so I really hadn't explored gender identity or expression Until I started to think about drag more more seriously. 00:24:25.855 --> 00:24:26.756 And so it was. 00:24:26.756 --> 00:24:33.582 It was a couple years before pandemic that I really started to get interested in drag and I had been Like a casual observer for a while. 00:24:35.515 --> 00:24:47.820 But you know, really like did the deep dive of binging every season of drag race and that kind of stuff and like 20 probably like 2018 and 2019, and and then Pandemic came around and I had I had gone out. 00:24:47.820 --> 00:24:52.717 I think my first time in drag was Halloween of 2019. 00:24:52.717 --> 00:25:01.923 I did a fun little witch moment because it's very easy to do drag on Halloween and it's safe and no one's gonna judge you Exactly, yeah, but it's also the gateway, as we know. 00:25:01.923 --> 00:25:03.106 So I was one of the. 00:25:03.106 --> 00:25:10.575 I was I'm a combination Halloween and quarantine Queen because, like I knew I liked it on at Halloween. 00:25:10.575 --> 00:25:13.289 But it's not like I had the time. 00:25:13.289 --> 00:25:15.519 I had a full-time job, I was in another band. 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:20.394 Like I wasn't gonna I was never going to like change my career and become a drag queen. 00:25:20.514 --> 00:25:48.359 That was not in the cards for me but then you know, miss, miss Rona Locked us all at home and I had hours and hours of free time and I spent mine, you know, watching makeup tutorials and learning to do drag, and so it was that process for me that really opened my mind to oh, like, am I, am I gender diverse? 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:50.444 Like, do I have some fluidity going on in me? 00:25:50.444 --> 00:25:55.236 I think maybe I do, and it was. 00:25:55.236 --> 00:26:14.561 It was a wild thing to kind of discover Through like, through drag because, you know you're, I literally was doing it just in my bedroom by myself during pandemic like, like for fun and and and, honestly, for inner child work is what it ended up being for me, it was like we love your child work here. 00:26:14.682 --> 00:26:35.722 Yes, mmm, mama, that that little kid, you know Just being able to hold the kid version of myself and say, hey, like all those times you got in trouble or you got shoot out for behaving in a certain way that was not befitting of a boy, or you know, messing in your mom's makeup or her closet, like, you're okay, that stuff was actually good. 00:26:35.722 --> 00:26:43.083 Those impulses and instincts are you and they're not like your sin nature or your fallen state or any of that bullshit. 00:26:43.083 --> 00:26:47.394 Yes, it's just you and you're coming back to yourself by doing these things. 00:26:47.394 --> 00:26:51.696 So it was like that first year of drag was really just that for me and we were. 00:26:51.696 --> 00:26:59.723 I was live streaming and as as we did during pandemic, so that's where I mean my first drag performances quote, unquote were we're on the internet? 00:26:59.723 --> 00:27:00.596 I? 00:27:02.175 --> 00:27:02.556 Love that. 00:27:02.556 --> 00:27:08.547 How fun to have that for journey, because most drag queens were like fumbling through. 00:27:08.547 --> 00:27:11.998 How do I do Something on the internet? 00:27:11.998 --> 00:27:19.081 Yeah, and it wasn't working well for most of You've got the opposite experience. 00:27:19.121 --> 00:27:31.201 You went from the figuring out the online first to yeah, yeah, coming in person and that was a fumble for me, like figuring out in person was like this is a whole different game, but yeah, it did. 00:27:31.201 --> 00:28:04.337 It did just kind of give me insight into myself and how I Think I think so much of my anger actually came from having feeling compelled to conform to Traditionally masculine identities right, traditionally masculine stereotypes in the world, because that that wasn't me, it's not, it's not how, it's not my natural state, and so I was living in a very unnatural way, even, excuse me, even after coming out and being, you know, fully embracing my sexuality and, you know, getting married. 00:28:04.337 --> 00:28:05.800 I got married in 2019. 00:28:05.800 --> 00:28:12.538 So, like it's, you know, I've been out and proud for a while, but I had not identified that. 00:28:12.538 --> 00:28:32.847 You know, there was this like Untended part of my soul that I had just been neglecting my whole entire life out of shame and out of, you know, being indoctrinated to neglect it, basically, and so it was really beautiful to Start writing songs as flamey and use, use that voice and just see myself. 00:28:33.816 --> 00:28:45.014 You know, all art is just taking what's Inside us and manifesting it in some external form right, whether that sound or sculpture or paint or whatever and drag is no different. 00:28:45.014 --> 00:28:51.916 It is an external manifestation of something that you're experiencing internally, and I Love that. 00:28:51.916 --> 00:28:53.019 You know drag was. 00:28:53.019 --> 00:29:02.741 It was such a gift for me to be able to learn more about who I am through that art form and Still you know every day getting to do that. 00:29:03.282 --> 00:29:04.767 It's so beautiful. 00:29:04.767 --> 00:29:09.104 Truly, thank you for sharing that with us. 00:29:09.104 --> 00:29:32.233 Playing with things that are traditionally Assigned to the opposite gender, I think, is so helpful for anyone to just start understanding yourself more, because until you start breaking down those barriers especially if you're afraid of it, like I was, like you're not going to I Don't know really understand why you're afraid of it. 00:29:32.233 --> 00:29:38.644 And then, if you're not afraid of it, great, play around with it, have fun, and if it's not for you, it's not for you, yeah. 00:29:39.955 --> 00:29:42.644 But more likely than not, it's going to. 00:29:42.644 --> 00:29:53.214 It's going to reveal to you the ways in which you are performing your gender right, even like you, as us, like speaking to you, it's a straight white man out there. 00:29:53.214 --> 00:30:03.099 Like you're performing a percentage of the time right Like almost almost nobody is 100% John Wayne, right, like, right like you. 00:30:03.260 --> 00:31:22.088 There are other things that you feel um, um, compelled to do or say or behave or speak like, or whatever, because it, it's an expectation that's been put on you because of, frankly, your genitalia and and I Think that that is a huge gift of exploring, just playing with you know, like put on nail polish, like just once in your life, and walk around for a day like as and I'm obviously speaking to a Cis, straight white- male dude, dude, right now, like put on nail polish and walk around and see, see how you feel, like, see what interactions it opens up for you and you know just little things that can help you then understand it's not going to turn everybody into a drag queen and frankly we don't want that because there's already enough competition out here among the Queens, but, um, but what it will do is it'll, it'll reveal to you that, oh, like I Could relax a little bit, like I don't have to work so hard to hustle for my acceptance in in my social circle and actually actually maybe like leaning into more authentic parts of myself that I tend to suppress Because I think other people are gonna judge me as being less masculine or less feminine, feminine or whatever. 00:31:23.336 --> 00:31:31.222 Leaning into those things can like Make me a freer, happier, more whole person, which then just it. 00:31:31.222 --> 00:31:38.971 That that's magic that we don't have words for, like we don't have Barometers for, but it does something in your relationships. 00:31:38.971 --> 00:31:49.042 It opens up, it makes people trust you more deeply, it it lets other people then respond in kind and it frees them. 00:31:49.042 --> 00:31:51.908 Like you become an agent of freedom for other folks. 00:31:51.908 --> 00:32:04.159 Like it's a, it's nudge, it's alchemy and, yeah, I think everybody should deconstruct your gender, if not your faith, at least your gender. 00:32:05.984 --> 00:32:08.510 I was literally going to loop it back to that. 00:32:08.510 --> 00:32:12.159 I was like here we go, more deconstruction. 00:32:12.159 --> 00:32:16.148 See, music wasn't the end goal. 00:32:16.148 --> 00:32:19.415 We have many things to deconstruct, yeah. 00:32:19.576 --> 00:32:22.808 Get enriched on Literally just getting started, baby. 00:32:22.808 --> 00:32:25.723 Yes, oh my God. 00:32:25.723 --> 00:32:49.985 I think another thing that it really can do is give you a lot of compassion for other people that are also putting on a performance, like when I go out for networking events or anytime that I'm leading a workshop, anytime that I am like on stage in air quotes, literally or figuratively, I dress all up. 00:32:49.985 --> 00:32:57.224 I don't do a full face of makeup, I always do my eyes, because that's my favorite part of makeup. 00:32:57.224 --> 00:33:02.105 I do like the eyes of the nipples of the face. 00:33:02.405 --> 00:33:06.492 Sorry, I had to. 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:08.765 So I got to show off my face, nipples. 00:33:08.765 --> 00:33:14.149 Yes, you did, because I love it and it's like a piece of art. 00:33:14.149 --> 00:33:15.654 I love that. 00:33:15.654 --> 00:33:20.831 It's art that also is only going to last for not even a whole day, like it's there and it's gone. 00:33:20.831 --> 00:33:23.119 Like what truer expression of art? 00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:24.502 It's like a sunset. 00:33:24.502 --> 00:33:31.099 It's Every moment that goes by it's changing and then it's gone forever. 00:33:31.099 --> 00:33:32.744 It's only in our memory. 00:33:32.744 --> 00:33:34.890 So, anyway, I love art. 00:33:34.890 --> 00:33:38.928 So then I'll dress up and heels. 00:33:39.069 --> 00:33:43.139 And when I got into wearing heels through, drag was the gateway. 00:33:43.139 --> 00:33:54.385 I did it for charity, you know, for the first time, and I had been dying to be able to like own heels, put on makeup and all this stuff, and that was the excuse. 00:33:54.385 --> 00:34:01.503 But heels, the whole point of this fucking tangent I went on was heels and drag. 00:34:01.503 --> 00:34:22.932 I was like, oh my God, I have a new, extremely heightened appreciation for drag queens after having to have my junk tucked up, my ass crack for several hours and then the Like wearing heels. 00:34:22.932 --> 00:34:26.056 I was like my feet are on fire. 00:34:26.056 --> 00:34:35.119 So to everyone that wears heels on the rag, like how and like I bow down right. 00:34:36.302 --> 00:34:38.404 Absolutely, it's wild. 00:34:38.404 --> 00:35:02.971 I've devised a way around it in which I, you know, I'm a singer-songwriter, so I'm always behind a guitar and a microphone, usually when I'm in drag, and I now have incorporated a stompbox into my set, so it's a pedal that you stomp on that mimics a bass drum, so I get a little percussion with my set button. 00:35:02.971 --> 00:35:11.724 Now that it gives me the excuse to like wear flats on stage or like boots you know, short heel boots or whatever because you can't Like, you can't stomp on it in a stiletto. 00:35:11.724 --> 00:35:12.806 It doesn't work. 00:35:12.887 --> 00:35:15.632 So I figured out my loophole. 00:35:17.762 --> 00:35:18.545 I love it. 00:35:18.545 --> 00:35:22.105 Yes heels respect, much respect. 00:35:22.105 --> 00:35:24.853 I still wear them but only for short periods of time. 00:35:25.681 --> 00:35:28.204 And also like especially straight men. 00:35:28.204 --> 00:35:46.989 You got to try some of this stuff just so you can have appreciation for the women who you're chasing and then potentially making them feel uncomfortable, like they already are physically so goddamn uncomfortable, and now you're making them emotionally uncomfortable, like just compassion. 00:35:46.989 --> 00:35:48.211 There's so much room for compassion. 00:35:50.003 --> 00:35:50.565 Absolutely. 00:35:52.020 --> 00:35:55.965 I want to also ask you another question here. 00:35:55.965 --> 00:36:02.534 Around your personal journey, how have you reconciled your faith and your queer identities? 00:36:02.534 --> 00:36:04.625 Why not just give it all up? 00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:13.552 That is a very good question and I think you might get a different answer for me depending on the day right. 00:36:16.001 --> 00:36:26.152 There are days when I definitely want to give it all up and I may one day still, you know, like that, who knows what the future holds. 00:36:26.152 --> 00:36:47.672 But why I met where I am meaning, the reason I released the record in the Christian genre, the reason I've kind of leaned into allowing myself to be called a Christian drag queen, even though it's complicated for me, you know. 00:36:47.672 --> 00:36:51.302 But there's a handful of reasons. 00:36:51.302 --> 00:36:55.849 I would say the biggest one is just purely representation matters. 00:36:55.849 --> 00:37:10.481 You know the power of presence and I'm sure you can relate Like there were very few instances for me growing up of seeing anything positive associated with queerness, absolutely Even beyond that. 00:37:10.822 --> 00:37:24.139 Just like I just didn't even know what queerness is growing up, you know, like I was so sheltered and so kept within our little evangelical subculture that it took a long time for even knew what, like the words gay and lesbian were. 00:37:24.139 --> 00:37:44.036 So for me it's knowing that there are still families out there who are raising kids the way mine did, which for me was really difficult and hard, toxic, created mountains of shame that I had to work through later in life. 00:37:44.036 --> 00:37:52.851 You know all of these things, everything we've been talking about so far, like stems from a fear and shame based religion. 00:37:52.851 --> 00:37:54.213 That was high demand. 00:37:54.213 --> 00:38:12.645 So knowing that there that's still the case for many kids who are coming up and knowing what it is to be queer, and knowing that there will always be queer kids coming up in the spaces, it feels important, it feels valuable to me, it feels like a thing I can offer the world. 00:38:12.645 --> 00:38:29.974 To be someone who just, is loud and open and doesn't stays in the space for now rather than rather than desert it. 00:38:29.974 --> 00:38:34.048 And to be clear, to be 100% clear. 00:38:34.048 --> 00:38:39.159 I need people to know I say this all the time like I fully champion leaving. 00:38:39.721 --> 00:38:54.159 I think that for a lot of people, leaving is the best option and it's so hard to heal in the place where you were harmed, yes, and so getting out is a really good thing for a lot of people. 00:38:55.061 --> 00:39:07.592 And so, whatever you want to call it deconstruction, apostasy I called it apostasy when I did it because we didn't have the deconstruction term but like, follow your healing, follow whatever is going to heal you. 00:39:07.592 --> 00:39:11.403 So that's the one side of it, right. 00:39:11.403 --> 00:39:41.159 And then the other is that sometimes, for certain people with certain dispositions and I count myself among them I think that we can stay, like if we have the capacity to stay and the desire to stay and the knowledge that our staying is potentially going to save lives, like actually save lives, which that's a message I've gotten more than once now since all of this stuff blew up. 00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:59.592 People who've slid into my DMs confessing suicidal thoughts or previous suicidal thoughts until literally hearing my music, which that's a humbling moment, like I never set out to write a song to save a life, a life other than my own. 00:39:59.592 --> 00:40:09.172 But that's the beauty of art and telling our stories and being vulnerable and all of it is. 00:40:09.172 --> 00:40:11.574 We can save more than our lives sometimes. 00:40:12.460 --> 00:40:18.271 So, for some of us, I think staying can be a good path. 00:40:20.322 --> 00:40:21.144 Congratulations. 00:40:21.144 --> 00:40:24.112 You're the only one that's ever made me cry on my own podcast. 00:40:24.340 --> 00:40:29.047 Oh no, and I hope they're starting to use. 00:40:29.047 --> 00:40:29.628 So worth it. 00:40:31.681 --> 00:40:41.753 Well, you know, a large my upbringing was the number one factor to me. 00:40:41.753 --> 00:40:47.065 Attempting suicide, and I think that's really what you know. 00:40:47.065 --> 00:40:53.855 I told you even before we started recording that like, for some reason, this question was like really like hitting an emotional spot for me. 00:40:53.855 --> 00:40:57.168 It was like I'll probably get emotional for it. 00:40:58.782 --> 00:41:41.090 Here we go, but you know, I there is something so beautiful to me about the art that you're creating and the way that you are being a queer voice in the space that I did not have a queer like superhero, you know, and I have worked through so much in therapy around my attempt, and for me then, you know, leaving the church was really the right decision. 00:41:41.090 --> 00:41:42.780 It's still. 00:41:42.780 --> 00:41:46.425 There's still positive memories. 00:41:46.425 --> 00:41:59.311 Even though I have so much pain around my experiences in the church, I still have happy memories of a sense of community there. 00:41:59.311 --> 00:42:10.639 Yeah, and what I, what I think is pulling so much emotion out of me here, is that what I see from you is this, this or what. 00:42:10.639 --> 00:42:13.846 What you're activating in me is this feeling of like. 00:42:13.846 --> 00:42:19.438 Okay, here's, like, all the good parts about the community that I experienced and that I've missed. 00:42:19.980 --> 00:42:20.059 Yeah. 00:42:20.641 --> 00:42:25.152 With the acceptance that I longed for my entire life. 00:42:25.152 --> 00:42:28.869 I never felt like it and you deserved yeah. 00:42:29.590 --> 00:42:30.982 Yeah, and it was stolen. 00:42:30.982 --> 00:42:32.387 It was stolen from you, yeah. 00:42:33.320 --> 00:42:47.891 I never felt like it was possible or acceptable or like anything would happen other than me being burned in hell and like ostracized so thank you, and that's what. 00:42:48.753 --> 00:42:53.764 well, dear Rockham, thank you for making the space available to have this conversation. 00:42:53.764 --> 00:43:03.371 I that's the thing that I think can be really hard for people who didn't maybe grow up in something similar to understand because, I get that a lot. 00:43:03.452 --> 00:43:19.472 I get that question a lot like my God, why are you catering to this community that would, that doesn't give a shit about you, that wants you dead, or that you know is vilifying you in public or like casting uh, passing legislation against you? 00:43:19.472 --> 00:43:21.516 Like why do you care what they think? 00:43:21.516 --> 00:43:27.674 And I'm like it's not that you know it's, I'm not like, I'm not out here chasing an approval. 00:43:27.674 --> 00:43:30.739 I'll never get it's. 00:43:30.739 --> 00:43:35.166 There's so many layers and you touched on 18 of them just now in what you said. 00:43:35.166 --> 00:43:51.933 But you know, like it's, it's, it's a real like we, it's a real part of our lives, like we lived good periods, good chunks of our lives and that was community for us and that was home and that was everything that. 00:43:51.933 --> 00:43:56.282 The power of nostalgia. 00:43:56.282 --> 00:44:14.679 Nowadays, you know, like, like I think we're more aware than ever of the power of nostalgia and that's why shows get rebooted and all this like yeah, it's, it's like it does something to you, like physiologically in your body, to have those connections back to your childhood and your upbringing. 00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:26.503 And the other part of it is that we were raised being we were raised with that fear of what's going to happen to us if we ever leave. 00:44:26.503 --> 00:44:27.083 What's gonna? 00:44:27.083 --> 00:44:28.211 You know we're gonna. 00:44:28.211 --> 00:44:33.981 I genuinely believed I would wind up unconscious in a gutter with a needle in my arm, like that was. 00:44:33.981 --> 00:44:40.777 That was the only future available to me if I didn't follow the letter of the law that was prescribed. 00:44:40.777 --> 00:44:44.242 Yeah, and so it's. 00:44:45.065 --> 00:44:51.621 There's so much you have to work through to, to, and that is such an individual personal journey and why. 00:44:51.621 --> 00:44:59.315 I would never, ever tell someone that they're, you know, not making the right choice by leaving or being selfish by leaving. 00:44:59.315 --> 00:45:10.632 No, leave, like, be selfish, go, go, take care of yourself and put yourself first for the first time in your life, because I guarantee you, if you're brought up in evangelicalism, you didn't, you did not. 00:45:10.632 --> 00:45:13.715 You never knew what it was like to care for yourself in any way. 00:45:13.715 --> 00:45:18.802 And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's. 00:45:18.802 --> 00:45:29.634 I wish we could have more, even just within our own community, more compassion for each other, for the ones who choose to stay, whatever that reason may be, or for the ones who choose to go. 00:45:29.634 --> 00:45:30.657 Like, just like. 00:45:30.657 --> 00:45:34.170 Let us all have our journeys and go where we need to go. 00:45:35.150 --> 00:45:38.472 Yeah, so beautifully said. 00:45:38.472 --> 00:45:50.882 All right, I want to switch gears here and talk about a much lighter note as we start to wrap things up here. 00:45:50.882 --> 00:45:54.304 Tell us about like what? 00:45:54.304 --> 00:45:58.686 What is your favorite song you've ever written or maybe that's also hard to choose Like? 00:45:58.686 --> 00:46:03.130 Is there a song or a few songs that like really just like hit deep? 00:46:05.353 --> 00:46:08.916 Yeah, it's very hard to choose because it is I'm. 00:46:08.916 --> 00:46:19.748 I like I think it was Mindy Kaling who said like best friend is not a person, it's a tier, and I just like use that for everything. 00:46:19.748 --> 00:46:25.081 Like I don't have a favorite one of anything, like I just have like a whole tier of favorites. 00:46:25.081 --> 00:46:29.170 Like I have 18 favorite movies, you know, and they're, and they're all my number one favorite. 00:46:29.170 --> 00:46:32.433 So it's kind of that way for my music to. 00:46:32.433 --> 00:46:37.701 But I guess I'll just talk about there's a song on the record called Holy Ground. 00:46:37.701 --> 00:46:40.764 That's kind of a what is the word I'm looking for? 00:46:40.764 --> 00:46:42.927 It's not a B side, but it's just more of a. 00:46:42.927 --> 00:46:45.049 It's a low expectations kind of song. 00:46:45.049 --> 00:46:51.596 Right, like you're not expecting I don't know, like I didn't, I didn't even didn't even expect much from it. 00:46:51.635 --> 00:46:57.181 When I recorded it I was like like maybe kind of filler, like is this a filler song? 00:46:57.181 --> 00:47:02.927 Because because I, when I first wrote it, I didn't know what it was, I didn't know what it was about and I wrote it. 00:47:02.927 --> 00:47:07.293 I actually think I wrote this whole thing before Flamy ever existed. 00:47:07.293 --> 00:47:24.503 So it's one of the ones and there are a few songs on the record that I had started to write or had written prior to Flamy existing, and then revisited them with Flamy's voice, and I was like, oh, like this has been in here in me all along this whole time. 00:47:24.503 --> 00:47:30.087 This voice, this person, this character, Flamy, has been trying to get out and speak and have her moment. 00:47:30.087 --> 00:47:35.558 And so that's one of this, it's one of those songs for me, holy Ground, and it's just. 00:47:35.558 --> 00:47:42.110 It ended up being my favorite track on the record, I think, and again, favorite being the tear of the year. 00:47:43.291 --> 00:47:44.012 For so many reasons. 00:47:44.012 --> 00:47:45.712 I just think the production on it is amazing. 00:47:45.712 --> 00:48:10.699 The percussionist we had on that song, Noah Heldman, just like did this trance, like thing that just puts me like, puts my whole body into just like a I don't know meditative, at ease posture and almost immediately, and it's just about like nature and like being connected to the earth and just my experience with that. 00:48:10.699 --> 00:48:16.405 But what it ended up feeling like was just like the right song for a psychedelic journey. 00:48:16.405 --> 00:48:21.953