From 10 employees to 1,000: Nextlink Internet's story of radical, organic growth

On this episode of Connected Nation, we sit down with Bill Baker, CEO of Nextlink Internet, to explore how this Texas-based provider is leading the charge in expanding broadband across 12 states—serving some of the country’s most rural and underserved communities.

Baker shares the extraordinary origin story of Nextlink, explains what “radical, organic growth” means, and unpacks the company’s unique approach to fiber and fixed wireless deployment. 

We also dive into the company’s major role in the federal E-Rate program, its partnerships with local governments, and what it takes to build resilient, rural broadband networks in a rapidly evolving tech landscape.

Recommended Links:

Nextlink Website

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 1:00 Meet Bill Baker: From CPA to telecom CEO
• 4:45 Founding Nextlink & honoring a legacy
• 10:00 Entrepreneurial spirit & building a culture
• 14:40 Bill's flying hobby
• 18:10 What Nextlink does
• 22:00 Understanding the footprint
• 26:20 The importance of E-Rate
• 30:30 The COVID shift: Why community-focused providers matter
• 35:30 Storm season strategies: Preparedness across 12 states
• 43:00 Navigating federal funding
• 50:00 Radical organic growth: Why Nextlink is scaling fast
• 53:00 Advice for ISPs: Scale, capital and the will to grow
• 56:10 Looking ahead: Mobile, fiber & the BEAD future
• 58:20 Final thoughts: Local matters
• 1:01:50 Conclusion + Outro

Transcript

Jessica Denson (00:08):

This is Connected Nation, an award-winning podcast focused on all things broadband from closing the digital divide to improving your internet speeds with talk technology topics, and impact all of us, our families, and our neighborhoods. On today's podcast, we talk with leadership with Nextlink Internet, a provider of fixed wireless fiber, internet, and phone services across 12 states. In the central US we'll discuss the company's approach to serving some of the most underserved parts of the country, including how it navigates the hefty requirements of state and federal funding, while also managing what Nextlink calls, quote, radical organic growth. I'm Jessica Denson, and this is Connected Nation. I'm Jessica Denson, and today my guest is Bill Baker, CEO of Next Link Internet. Welcome, bill. Bill Baker (01:01):

Hey. Hello. Jessica Denson (01:02):

Hello. I was just talking before we got started that you have a, a great radio voice, so I think our audience, <laugh> will enjoy today's conversation. How are you doing? Bill Baker (01:12):

Uh, just fine. Doing good. Jessica Denson (01:14):

Great. Uh, tell our audience where you're calling in from Today. Bill Baker (01:17):

I am calling in, our headquarters is actually located in Texas, where we started in a small rural community, uh, Hudson Oaks, Texas, which if you don't know where Hudson Oaks is, not many people do <laugh>. It is probably about 45 miles west, west of Fort Worth. Jessica Denson (01:36):

Okay. Yeah. So you're in the northern part of Texas, then Bill Baker (01:39):

North Texas is what we would call this. Jessica Denson (01:42):

I, I like to brag sometimes on this podcast, and I'm a native Texan. I was born in San Antonio and grew up in Austin, but I'm calling from, uh, Louisville, Kentucky today, <laugh>. Bill Baker (01:51):

Gotcha. Jessica Denson (01:52):

Yeah. And you can understand outside of Texas, Texans are always a Texan <laugh>, right? Bill Baker (01:56):

Uh, ex Always, Jessica Denson (01:58):

Always, always. Alright, I'd like to begin, um, with each of our podcasts with some background on each of our guests for, so our audience knows who we're talking about. And you've led Next Link Internet for nearly seven years. Talk about your years leading up to that and what brought you to this point. Bill Baker (02:13):

Sure. Well, you know, I, I, in college I was, you know, an accounting guy, CPA, got my MBA and, you know, did a, did accounting firm work early in my career, uh, and then sort of went out and, and fell into a couple operational roles, uh, at some companies actually in the healthcare industry, believe it or not, not telecom, and sort of got my taste of, if you will, running things. Um, and then I actually came back, uh, to a big four accounting firm where I did consulting and working with clients, helping them buy companies. So, again, very, very involved in the operational side, not just sort of, if you will, the, the Green Eye Shade accountant, per se. Um, and as I was sort of doing that role, I was also investing since I'd sort of had a, a lot of small company experience at that point, I just started investing in some startups and, which is in a way sort of what led me to the next link situation, which is somewhat of a long story, but I, you know, the, the short, you Jessica Denson (03:22):

Could share it, short Bill Baker (03:22):

Version of it. Yeah. Is, you know, I, I had a good college buddy, uh, that I'd been friends with at that point for 25 years. Uh, Danny Gilbert and Danny had been in the rural broadband business headquartered in Hudson Oaks, and he reached out to me and was thinking of growing the business and asked me if I'd want to invest. I, you know, I knew nothing about rural broadband. This is back in 2009. And at the time I said, sure. And then, you know, as we started to talk about it, he actually, uh, got approached by a much larger, uh, broadband company who ultimately bought him out instead of me investing. So, you know, okay. You know, no, no biggie. I'm not a telecom guy, so I mean, it didn't bother me at all. And, you know, owned by a private equity firm, and my, and, and he stayed and was running a, a much bigger business for them, uh, across the state of Texas. And, and he called me up after, you know, about six months goes, man, I hate this <laugh>. I don't like not being the boss. I don't like the way they do things. You know, typical mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, sort of sellers, uh, remorse kind of thing. Mm-hmm Jessica Denson (04:42):

<affirmative>. Bill Baker (04:42):

And he goes, you know, Hey, if I go back outta my own, would would you back me starting the business back up? You know, I'm like, sure, love to. And so I, I, along with some others, I was his primary in, uh, investor, uh, started the business back up, headquartered in Hudson Oaks back in 2012. And, and, and unfortunately, and tragically literally the month after, um, he sort, as they say, put the band back together, Uhhuh <affirmative>, and hired all these people who used to work for him before and put the team back together. And they were, they were started back up. Uh, unfortunately, he was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer. Oh, my, uh, absolute, absolute tragedy. Um, Danny passed that year, and I, and I sort of, uh, inherited to some degree. I'd been very active with him in starting the business back up, given my experience.
(05:35)
But I mean, I sort of inherited a, a business, uh, in the telecom space doing real broadband, and I knew not a lot about it, <laugh>. So I, I quickly immersed myself, uh, in the business much more so than I was, and decided to stick with it. And basically, over time, most of the other investors, uh, at that time, you know, I, I bought them out. 'cause obviously a much a different dynamic now mm-hmm <affirmative>. With Danny's passing, I bought them out and just, you know, continued to grow the business, you know, and, and invest in the business. And I'm, I'm still a partner, you know, big four accounting firm, uh, at the time. And, and so ul ultimately the business over five or six years grew pretty radically, uh, in the teens, so to speak. And, you know, I, I ultimately sort of took a early retirement to focus 100% of my energy on the day-to-day, uh, of Next Link. And, you know, have sort of been sitting in the office, uh, running it, uh, pretty much for the last nine years. And, you know, it's, it's been a wild ride. Jessica Denson (06:50):

Did, let me ask you, since you did mention that you were investing in startups, you know, sometimes that can be risky and, um, interesting and also quite, uh, quite a ride. Did that kind of prepare you for suddenly this happening where you lost one of your good friends who was also part of your, uh, partnership in this? Did it prepare you to suddenly take on something? You, you, well, you had to learn Bill Baker (07:14):

<laugh>. It, it, it did in some ways Uhhuh <affirmative> in that, you know, I, I had done a, a lot of what my day job was at that point was mergers and acquisitions. So there's just lots of crazy things that happened in those situations. But I, I don't think the part that I was not, you know, experienced or knowledgeable in dealing with, per se, was actually the loss, just the emotional loss of a good friend. And, and so, and that dynamic, which is, you know, incredibly unique. So you're just sort of, but at the end of the day, you just gotta push through. Um, is is sort of what I, I would say, is there's a lot of people who work at that company, and there's a lot of customers that depend on you when you're in the broadband business, as I explain to people. And that's 24 7, 365 mm-hmm Jessica Denson (08:02):

<affirmative>. You Bill Baker (08:02):

Know, people don't, people, if their internet goes out on Christmas Day, they are calling the support line <laugh>. Jessica Denson (08:09):

Yeah. Bill Baker (08:09):

You know, they, they, there, there are no off days. So, you know, um, I, I think, you know, we just worked our way through it and, and I think obviously the dynamic of it being the first year of the company, which is sort of chaotic in and of itself, it just sort of added another layer of chaos, but it, you know, probably would've been chaos either way. Jessica Denson (08:34):

The fact that you've grown it, does that feel like, um, kind of a, a, a memorializing Danny and what you would hope for? Bill Baker (08:43):

Oh, absolutely. You know, we, we have a plaque, uh, in our, in our foyer as you walk in headquarters, uh, recognizing Danny and, you know, his, his sort of the culture, which we've always can strive to continue, uh, of having, you know, very community-based business, very, very focused on, you know, serving rural areas and, you know, in, in, in somewhat of a family business style. I mean, there's certainly challenges with growing your head count from 10 to a thousand Yeah. And maintaining that, that culture and that dynamic. But, you know, we, we do our best. We try, um, and you know, I, I certainly don't know on a, on a face-to-face basis everybody's name, uh, you know, and I see 'em now, which in a way bothers me. But it is just part of growing, you know, growing up, if you will, as a company. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, and just trying to set the tone and the culture and you hope that flows through to, to all four corners of the business. Jessica Denson (09:54):

Yeah. And I do want to, uh, do a deeper dive into next links. Uh, I dunno if our audience is, is noticing that. I'm really trying to say next links 'cause <laugh>, I keep swallowing that X. But, um, before we do, uh, I wanna ask you a couple of more questions. Have you always been drawn to enter entrepreneurship? Bill Baker (10:12):

Um, you know, I think so. Just 'cause I, I sort of have this combination of being a little bit of a workaholic, uh, combined with just liking to build things. I mean, I'm surprised I'm a I'm an accountant and non-engineer, uh, 'cause I just like to build things and, and, you know, look back and go, you know, oh, you know, we did that. And whether it's, whether it's building a company or building something tangible, um, that's just sort of in my DNAA little bit. I mean, I, um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a little bit older than probably a lot of your listeners, uh, who, who are listening to this podcast. But, you know, I, I grew up in the seventies and eighties and, you know, I, I remember in the seventies being in sixth grade and actually being a, a bus boy at a restaurant on the weekends. And, you know, and I, and I don't think labor laws today would allow, I would love that. A sixth grader, no <laugh>, to work from, from 4:00 PM till midnight, uh, on an eight hour shift. But, you know, that was just, you know, I don't, I don't know if normal's the right word, <laugh>, but you know, that, that, you know, I've just always sort of worked, Jessica Denson (11:28):

You know, from a very Bill Baker (11:29):

Young age. And I think that's a little bit, you, you, 'cause you have to have that in your DNA because I think any business in any sector, any industry, anybody who's doing a startup, man, you are, you're doing it all. You have to think, you have to prepare, you have to look around the corner and understand what's coming next. And there's no such thing for somebody doing a startup working 40 hours a week. It just takes an incredible level of work ethic and commitment to, to really start up a new business. Jessica Denson (12:04):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And when you talk about it, you sound excited about it though, <laugh>, you said? It is. I mean, because Bill Baker (12:09):

Again, it's, I I think, yeah, it, it's exciting to me mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's, it's an exciting thing to do. And, and, and part of it too is, you know, I go back to, and, and I, and I say this with pride, you know, hey, I, I'm sure in our, um, you know, gosh, 2012 to 25 in our 13 year history, I'm sure there's a lot of people that have worked at Next Link and said, that wasn't the place for me. But I also say, you know what? There are a lot of people who work in this business today and have worked at it historically that say, that was really good for me, my family and my career. Um, you know, I, I was, you know, and sometimes it's the little things Jessica Jessica Denson (12:54):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Bill Baker (12:54):

That, that people remember. And you know, like one of the little things we do is, you know what, we got a lot of young people that work in this business. And, and as a part and parcel of that is we got a lot of people having babies <laugh> who our employees. Yeah. And so, you know, just one of the little touches we do is we go out on every employee's baby registry, and we buy one of the most expensive things that they have. Jessica Denson (13:25):

Oh, that's wonderful. Bill Baker (13:26):

And, and it's generally for most people, it's the stroller. Jessica Denson (13:29):

Mm-hmm Bill Baker (13:30):

<affirmative>. And especially if it's their first baby, which for a lot of our people, <laugh>, it's their first baby. And so, you know, I I can't tell you the number of employees that I crossed paths with three months, six months, a year after they have a baby. And, and again, I certainly don't have that memorized who's had a baby and who hasn't that say to me, you know, Hey, bill, you know, I've always wanted to tell you thanks for the stroller. Jessica Denson (13:58):

Oh, that's awesome. If, Bill Baker (13:58):

If I, if I had a nipple for every person, uh, who had told me thanks for the stroller, I would be a wealthy man. Um, and, and it's just, those are the little things that I just sit there and go, if, you know, as I'm sitting here saying the story, I, I'm like going, okay, we've gotta go find a stroller manufacturer who can actually put the next link logo. Jessica Denson (14:20):

Oh, that'd be a great Bill Baker (14:21):

Idea. On a And that would just be the extra touch. Jessica Denson (14:24):

Yeah. <laugh>, that'd be a great idea. Well, I did look on your LinkedIn, which I gen generally do with every single, uh, guest. And I noticed one little thing that was outside of the purview of Next Link, and that is that you're certified as a single engine pilot, a float, something called a float plane. Well, can you tell us about that Bill Baker (14:44):

<laugh>? I, I, you know, I always loved flying. I just thought that was a fascinating thing to do as, as a child, as a teenager, uh, I was just fascinated by flying. I I didn't have a relative who was a pilot, didn't know anybody on a plane. And when I was in graduate school, I was on scholarship. And so I, I really wasn't using any of my student loan availability. Didn't need to. And I, the town I went to Baylor University, and in Waco, Texas, there, there's an airport and they had a flight school. And, and so I took out some of my student loan money, <laugh> loan money as a Baylor student, and went to flight school on the weekends. Jessica Denson (15:32):

Oh, wow. Bill Baker (15:32):

And, and got my pilot's license, you know, decades ago at this point, I'm afraid to say <laugh>, but, and, and then through the years, I would just slowly get different enhancements. Um, so I can, I can fly float planes, I can fly. And I've owned retractable gear airplanes. Jessica Denson (15:54):

Well, what does that mean? What is a float plane? What is retractable gear? A Bill Baker (15:56):

Float plane is a, a plane, typically single or, or, or dual engine that has the floats on the bottom instead of the wheels. Oh, okay. And so it land, it takes off and lands on water. Oh, wow. <laugh>. So, um, so, uh, not, not a lot of places to do that in Texas. <laugh>, I would probably invent Jessica Denson (16:18):

You, maybe make it down to the Gulf <laugh>. Bill Baker (16:20):

Exactly. Yeah. And that, and that's where I got that, that, uh, practice in was, was actually in Florida, uh, many years ago. But, you know, I've flown retractable gear airplanes, I've flown, uh, helicopters a little bit, and it's just like, you know, some people go do, uh, some people play golf, Jessica Denson (16:38):

Uhhuh, Bill Baker (16:38):

<affirmative>, uh, some people, you know, everybody's got their own hobby. And for many decades, um, my hobby was just sort of flying, uh, different kinds of planes, uh, and just learning, you know, how to fly different kinds of planes. Um, it Jessica Denson (16:54):

Sounds fun, Bill Baker (16:55):

<laugh>. Uh, it was, it was great. I will tell you this, uh, as, as next link was growing and getting bigger, um, our, our bank was just like, you know, Hey, if we're gonna do this loan, we just want you to know Bill, we're gonna have to put some restrictions on the loan. And I'm saying, oh, oh, no. Well, I understand that Uhhuh, they go, no, they're gonna be Jessica Denson (17:18):

Personal. Bill Baker (17:20):

Oh, no. Like, I don't understand. And they go, well, you, you can't, you can't fly planes anymore, and you can't skydive <laugh>, and you can't scuba dive. And so Oh, Jessica Denson (17:32):

Wow. Scuba dive too, huh? Bill Baker (17:34):

Yes. I mean, basically high risk personal activities, or at least with the bank. Right. So unfortunately, my, my flying days are, are on the shelf, uh, for a while longer, and I'm sure I'll get back into it in retirement. Jessica Denson (17:46):

Yeah. Wow. Well, I just thought that was interesting. So thank you for sharing that with us. Um, also interesting that the bank has those, uh, parameters or <laugh>, they're watching Bill Baker (17:56):

You. They're, they're, they're all about the risk. They're all about managing risk. Jessica Denson (17:59):

That's right. All right, let's, let's turn, uh, to next Link internet and really dive in, uh, share what your company's focus is and what a typical day for you A CEO is like. Bill Baker (18:12):

Absolutely. Well, I mean, we're, we're an internet service provider and, and everything that goes with that. Um, we serve mostly rural areas and small communities with a combination of either a fixed wireless connection to the, to the customer, or it could be fiber. And we do both, you know, basic broadband. We do, uh, voiceover ip, so digital phone. Um, we also, uh, provide, uh, video, uh, not true cable tv, but streaming video. And, uh, we're currently rolling out right now a mobile services using one of the big cellular guys network. So we're sort of all things, you know, internet and voice mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, and very much in the rural communities. And, you know, when we started get started in 2012, nobody served the rural communities. Jessica Denson (19:10):

Yeah. Bill Baker (19:10):

Uh, that world has changed radically over the last 13 years, and in particular in the last five, and will continue to change, just 'cause the, the states and federal government have just decided it's critically important to our success as a country to have quality broadband services, not just in urban areas, but also in, um, the highly rural markets. And, you know, starlink is certainly provided coverage to areas where no one could serve, not even me. Jessica Denson (19:46):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Bill Baker (19:46):

Um, and so it's, it's, uh, it, it is a highly competitive marketplace. Technologies are evolving quickly, and also, quite frankly, the level of usage is really, the world has shifted from sort of satellite TV or cable TV to these days. Everybody streams over, uh, internet. They're watching YouTube, they're watching Hulu, they're using YouTube. TV is their sort of legacy TV provider. And so it's, it's a different world. And, you know, the, you know, the question, what's a typical day like, you know, when we operate in 12 states, we have almost a thousand employees, and we are, you know, working with counties, states, and the FCC on various grants that we've been awarded that require us to, into these underserved areas. And so it's sort of a combination of what things are for most CEOs. Some days you're dealing with a lot of customer issues, making sure everybody's addressed. Some days you're dealing with employee issues, um, being in, in somewhat of a regulated business, some days I'm dealing with governmental, um, folks on whatever their needs and issues and concerns are. Uh, and, and some days it's all of the above, if I'm lucky. Jessica Denson (21:20):

<laugh> sounds like you like a mix though, don't you? Bill Baker (21:22):

Like, Jessica Denson (21:23):

You like that, that Bill Baker (21:23):

It, it is never slow, and it is never calm. There's always, um, a lot going on, and we've got a great team here. Um, you know, so I by no means do do it all by myself. Um, and so it's, it's really about as the CEO, um, you know, making sure we've got our priorities set straight. Um, we know strategically what we need to get done and, and, and fundamentally how we're gonna do it. And then just letting the teams execute, uh, on that strategy and guidance. And, and then you're just sort of course correcting, you know, as needed along the way. Jessica Denson (22:06):

Uh, you know, when you talk about rural areas, there could be this, this, um, perception of not very many people, but actually you guys serve 12 states, uh, I'm gonna name them. And I think you're, uh, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, and Illinois, Indiana, Louisiana, Wyoming. And you guys just are adding, you're about to roll out three more states, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and South Dakota. That is correct. So that, I mean, that's actually a pretty large footprint. Correct. There's a lot of people, even though we're talking rural, um, I can imagine there's a lot of people that you're serving within that space. Correct. Bill Baker (22:40):

Uh, there, there is, I mean, fundamentally, you know, we're, we're in communities. I say communities, we're in cities with hundreds of thousands of, of people. Um, we bump up and into a lot of the suburbs for the metro areas across those states. Um, and so it's not like it's just, you know, out in the, the, the, the highly unpopulated pasture land. Now we're in those places too, trust Jessica Denson (23:09):

Me. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Bill Baker (23:09):

But, so it does vary greatly. You know, the bulk of our subscribers are probably, you know, in north and central Texas, um, because that's where we got our start. And we've been there by far the longest. And those are not what I would call highly rural, um, by compared to say like West Texas Jessica Denson (23:35):

Mm-hmm Bill Baker (23:36):

<affirmative>. Or, you know, the middle of Western Kansas, or just areas where the entire county may only have a thousand people that live there. Um, you know, I, I have fiber neighborhoods subdivisions that have a thousand homes, you know, so it's probably 3000 people living there. And conversely, I have highly rural counties where there's probably not 200 homes. Jessica Denson (24:01):

Wow. So, Bill Baker (24:02):

You know, it's, it's really both ends of the spectrum. But, but they're all, and this is the incredibly important thing with being an internet service provider, they're all really expecting the same level of service. Yeah. You know, they, they want good latency, they want good speed. They want their internet to work all the time. And, and so, and I think that's where, you know, you can't tell the customers this. It's, it's hard to explain to a highly rural government official, but sometimes you just sort of want to go, you know, guys, I'm with you. I want to provide you the service you want. And we do everything we can to do it. But I also wanna highlight, you are 300 miles from a metropolitan area, Jessica Denson (24:53):

<laugh>. Yeah. Bill Baker (24:54):

And all your internet traffic has to go to that metropolitan area just to get to the internet. And then from there, it's gotta travel through the internet to connect to whatever website you're going to and that server. And then it's gotta come all the way back through that. And I don't think people understand some of those. That's, that's sort of the, you know, uh, what goes on behind the curtain. And there's just a lot more failure points in terms of pieces of equipment. There's the, you know, there's a big difference between being 300 miles from an internet exchange and being 10 miles from an internet exchange. Jessica Denson (25:38):

Mm-hmm Bill Baker (25:39):

<affirmative>. That's a whole lot more miles of fiber that can get cut by, you know, a post hole digger, a bulldozer, um, highway construction, you know, a road crossing. There's just so many more things that happen the further away you get from a metropolitan area. That's just the, you know, the challenge you take on serving, you know, rural internet, uh, the further you get from a metropolitan area, you know, the, the more plates there are to spend, so to speak. Jessica Denson (26:14):

And, uh, when we talk about these rural areas, you're not just talking about residential, right? You, you help, you do work with a lot of businesses and, um, other types of organizations. Is that correct? Bill Baker (26:25):

AB Absolutely. I mean, to us, a, a customer is any person or entity that needs broadband. So, you know, we, we serve, the bulk of our customers are residential, but, you know, we serve businesses. We serve sort of what we call commercial, very large scale businesses. Um, we're also a huge provider of broadband to rural, um, governmental entities, whether it's the city government, the county government, their libraries. You get into the school districts, you know, in, in the state of Texas, for instance, we're probably one of the top two internet providers in the state of Texas to school districts, just because we serve so many rural school districts, um, across the state 'cause of the size of our footprint. So we're a very huge player in the, in the federal funding program to school districts for broadband services called E-Rate. And Jessica Denson (27:30):

So, yes. Talk about, talk about E-Rate program and why that's important and how that works when, for a provider to help schools and libraries. Bill Baker (27:39):

Well, I mean, when you go out into some of these rural markets, I mean, the, the, the fundamental reality is the income demographics are lower and there, there's less property tax base. And so those school districts are, you know, fundamentally underfunded to begin with. And so the, the federal government has a program referred to as E-Rate where they are providing, um, technology subsidies, um, that also address broadband. They also address phone service too, that help them ensure that they have access to quality services. And so, you know, but in order to be a vendor for a school district who's using E-Rate funding, you have to be an E-Rate approved vendor. So we've been an E-Rate approved vendor since day one when we started this business in 2012. And that's what, you know, every, as we continue to grow into new states, we continue to add school districts and government entities that are E-Rate participants, uh, as part of our service footprint. Um, and again, there's, I don't consider it from a service standpoint mm-hmm <affirmative>. There's nothing unique about it. It's really just all with the funding and how they pay you and how you're reimbursed as a vendor. Um, it's just the nature of that federal subsidy being sort of built in to them that you just need to be a, a registered participant per se. Jessica Denson (29:19):

Does it help to have those anchor institutions connected in a smaller community? Is that like a, a hub? Bill Baker (29:26):

Oh, it really does. 'cause when you go out into a rural area, you know, go back to my example where there's a thousand people in a county or maybe a thousand people in that county. And if that's the case, they're probably the biggest internet customer in the entire county, is the school district. Now, it may be a super tiny school district, but there is a school district in that county, and they are buying internet service. And so when you've sort of got those, those as your anchor institutions, the, the city government, the county government, the school district in the hospital, when you can start to pick up those, you know, then you can really know that, that you can invest in that area and in that market, uh, to serve those more rural, small customers, um, you know, in, in, and keep the service affordable. You know, as I like to say, most of those customers I just mentioned, those four customer types overwhelmingly go dark at five o'clock Jessica Denson (30:28):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Bill Baker (30:28):

Substantially. So, and guess what? At five o'clock <laugh>, all the residential internet cranks up big time as everyone starts streaming video in the evening Jessica Denson (30:39):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Bill Baker (30:39):

And so it's, it's also very much a balance on your network usage as an internet service provider mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so we've, we've always been, you know, a big provider in that area. And that's how we manage our network, built our business. And, you know, and we sort of saw when, um, when COVID hit, uh, in 2020 and all of a sudden everyone was desperate for better quality internet in their communities. Jessica Denson (31:10):

Yeah. Bill Baker (31:10):

And, you know, we literally had a lot of, a lot of school districts reaching out to us going, what can we do to get you to expand in our community? And I'm like going, well, I'm not your internet service provider to the school district, <laugh>, why don't, why don't you call them Jessica Denson (31:27):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Bill Baker (31:27):

And they're like, going well, but all they do is, is, is big customers, they don't do residential. I'm like going, well, right now I'm taking those same phone calls from all the school districts in the communities that have hired us, and that's where we've gotta pour all of our energy. And so, you know, that's what I always like to say to, um, school district says, listen, if you don't wanna choose me as your internet provider, that's, Hey, I, uh, there's, there's always somebody smarter than there's always somebody better. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Is what I always like to say, <laugh>, but at least pick somebody who's serving the community as well. Don't let somebody come in and cherry pick your account that doesn't serve the broader community. Um, that's, Jessica Denson (32:15):

That's really good advice, I think. Bill Baker (32:17):

And, and, and it, and it came really to bear in a very large and meaningful way during COVID when all of a sudden those school districts had internet service providers that didn't serve their students at home. And, you know, couldn't, couldn't do anything, couldn't set up wifi in a parking lot. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, couldn't bump up speeds, couldn't give discounts, you know, all those things that, that, uh, for those who are in the business world during COVID, you know, the insanity that ensued, especially in broadband. Um, you know, that was, I think where we, uh, that issue really shone brightly. Jessica Denson (32:56):

Yeah. You can't see me, but I'm nodding as you say this <laugh>. 'cause I heard stories about this one after another during 2020. Um, I, I noticed on your website that you also had a special notation for developers and builders that you kind of boxed to the side look, that if they were looking for fiber for internet, um, that, that you would help them with, um, a a will serve letter. Why is that such an important area with new developers? Bill Baker (33:24):

Well, I mean, in, in the world we live in today, um, one of the first things people ask when they're buying a home, whether it's a new home from a builder, an existing home, is who's internet provider. And, and given that I am highly, uh, located in rural areas, which, and many times people are expanding into, I mean, our part of the country that we serve is, is growing. And so there's a lot of new homes that have been built through the years, new home neighborhoods, communities expanding. And so these, these developers, you know, who probably 10 years ago didn't think once about internet in their neighborhood. That's just something an internet company would come put in after the, after the, the neighborhood was done. They didn't even think about it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Now, a developer won't even start a neighborhood. That's something that he addresses along with, you know, electricity and gas and water right up front as a necessary sort of utility that, that they have to account for, uh, in the planning of the neighborhood. And so we, we do a lot of new home neighborhoods, um, where we do fiber, which is Texas, Nebraska, Iowa, uh, and Indiana. And so we just do a lot of new home neighborhoods and work with builders and developers, um, in, in working with them from the very beginning of the planning on their, their neighborhoods. Jessica Denson (34:59):

Yeah. I wouldn't wanna move into a new neighborhood <laugh> if it didn't have internet. Uh, so I could understand that. Um, let's, I know we taught, we, we mentioned all 12 states that you're in or about to be in. Um, but I wanna, I do wanna discuss one thing. We are coming into hurricane and tornado season, and I know that some of those states, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, are kind of in the, they're in the, uh, tornado alley, so to speak, <laugh>. Um, how do you deal with storms and that type of thing? Disasters are, is there a special approach or is that, um, just something you learn, you've learned about as you've gone? Um, and if so, are there any great lessons that you've gotten from that? Bill Baker (35:41):

You know, I, I was very much misled when I started this business in 2012. <laugh>, I think the first five years when we were predominantly in Texas and Oklahoma was a huge drought period. And I never had a true appreciation in the early years of this business what storm season can do. Um, the last couple years have educated me, uh, at a level that I don't want any more education <laugh>. Yeah. Um, you know, as literally two days ago, um, I think I lost about 25 windshields in Texas to hail Jessica Denson (36:23):

Wow. Bill Baker (36:24):

Just this week. Um, so it, it has been, um, an extreme storm season in 2025 in the central US in terms of tornadoes and hail. Um, and so for us, you know, given that we operate over so many states, if you walked in our network operations center, you would see, you know, all it's like walking in the NASA control room. You know, there's all these giant screens on the board, and some of those screens are completely dedicated to weather. And, and literally we're tracking lightning strikes. We are tracking, um, fronts. We literally have people in the network operation center who are heavily focused on what the next 24 to 48 hour forecast is, uh, across our service area. And we adjust our operations based on the forecast. Jessica Denson (37:20):

Wow. Bill Baker (37:21):

So, you know, if, if there's a bad enough storm, if there's severe thunderstorm forecast, uh, for an area, we will not take any more, uh, install requests for the 48 hours after that storm. And we basically hold all of our, our install schedule for service calls so that if, if something severe does roll through, we can address it as quickly as possible. Um, we're almost like the power company in that regard. If something severe rolls through one part of our service area, you know, Kansas and does tremendous infrastructure damage, we will literally roll, um, personnel, uh, from other states into Kansas to help repair it, uh, as soon as possible. So, you know, uh, uh, I probably had a storm here in Texas about, oh, um, maybe two months ago that actually did drop a lot of tornadoes on the ground, uh, across north Texas, but a, a very large high wind event.
(38:35)
And we probably had a hundred field personnel from OUTTA state come in for the week after that, just to make sure, you know, whether it was, uh, a tower location or individual subscribers, um, that anything that was impacted was, uh, repaired and remediated as quickly as possible. So, yeah, I mean, storm season for us, <laugh>, yeah. I mean, we, we, we start gearing up in January and, and basically, you know, March through June in the central US you're, you're gonna see some severe storms. And obviously our footprint in the north across Nebraska, Iowa, uh, Illinois, Indiana, you can also see some pretty mean to, uh, blizzards Jessica Denson (39:22):

Oh yeah. Bill Baker (39:22):

In the winter across that footprint. Um, you know, and we'll obviously see some more of that as we move into Minnesota and Wisconsin and South Dakota. But, um, you just, you know, weather's just part of the business. Jessica Denson (39:37):

Uh, I'm struck also by the idea that, um, when I've talked about this before, uh, the idea that people, now, as you mentioned earlier, they use internet for their, for their information, for their, for their tv, for everything. And so not having it means a lack of information when things can be kind of scary, um, even after a storm has moved through. So I can imagine how important that is to get back online. Bill Baker (40:03):

Absolutely. Jessica Denson (40:03):

Yeah. Bill Baker (40:04):

Well, and, and, and sometimes too, when you're in more rural areas Jessica Denson (40:08):

Mm-hmm Bill Baker (40:09):

<affirmative>. Um, you know, power and electricity is, is, you know, a little bit more of a challenge as well. 'cause it's just, it's so spread out for the power company to deal with weather damage themselves Jessica Denson (40:22):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And Bill Baker (40:23):

So, but that doesn't mean every subscriber you have, let, let's say you lose power at a tower location, that doesn't mean every subscriber's lost power. So it's, it's critical that you try and keep your, all of your operations functional regardless of what's going on with power. So, you know, we're, we have, you know, backup batteries, you know, if necessary, we'll roll, roll generators out in the field. Um, you know, we're, from a maintenance standpoint, we're very much a 24 7 operation. I mean, we, we've literally placed guys in the path of a severe thunderstorm just so it could roll over our network and they're already there Jessica Denson (41:11):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Bill Baker (41:12):

And then we, we dispatch them to where the damage is <laugh>, Jessica Denson (41:16):

They're just standing at the ready. Bill Baker (41:18):

Yeah. Yeah. It's like a, it's like a power company that rolls in after her cables through the state kind of thing. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, you know, there's gonna be a lot of lightning strikes. Jessica Denson (41:27):

Yeah. Bill Baker (41:27):

You know, there's gonna be a lot of power outages, and so you're just, you're, you're ready to deal with, you know, whatever the storm left you Jessica Denson (41:35):

And that those first few years of the drought <laugh> you suddenly you're finding yourself learning, oh wow, this is storm season. This is what we're going through. And, and that's kind of what led to this approach. Bill Baker (41:47):

Uh, absolutely. As we started to see more and more severe storms Jessica Denson (41:50):

Mm-hmm Bill Baker (41:51):

<affirmative>. You, I mean, there, there's just, we live in a world of weather cycles.
(41:55)
Yeah. Um, and, you know, sometimes it's just bad luck. But, um, you know, definitely dealing with some more severe thunderstorms the last couple years and high wind events and sort of just, uh, learning that you, you can't be reactive, uh, is probably the biggest thing that I would say that's, that's improved the quality of our service and our service response. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, to network damage is just being prepared. And, and that's why I say, you know, tracking the forecast, moving personnel assets in the field where they need to be in advance of potential damage. And, and even just adjusting our, our subscriber schedule, um, you know, after damage rolls through from a big storm, um, so that we can be responsive to the subscribers we have as much as humanly possible. Jessica Denson (42:52):

I'd love to see that, uh, that action center or what <laugh>, whatever you call it, um, uh, the area where you won't, we monitor everything. Uh, so ne next link internet has done a lot of work with federal and state funding as well. We talked about E-Rate, um, but you've also done some things with RDOF and CAF funding. Talk about what that is and how, um, your company leverages that for the critical, for critical areas that are underserved or, or just in general for expanding access. Bill Baker (43:22):

Absolutely. And, and I guess for, for your listeners of the podcast, just keeping in mind, um, caf, which is the Connect America Fund, um, run by the FCC and RDOF, which is the Rural Digital Opportunity Fund, again, run by the FCC, were rural broadband programs that put funding out there where the, the awardee, uh, in, in our case next link, um, you know, was receiving funding, uh, from the FCC, but they were, but we were obligated to provide service in these geographical areas of the award. Um, and in our case, in, in caf it's across six states. And in RDOF, it's across 11 states. And, you know, you, you had, um, six years to complete the, the deployment and there were milestones along the way, so it wasn't like you could do it all in year six mm-hmm <affirmative>. So you had to, you had to ramp up.
(44:25)
And, and some people, when I say that, go, well, that's just ridiculous. Six years to do this. Well, I'd say a couple things to that. Number one, these are out in the middle of nowhere. Um, so it's, it's highly rural unserved areas. So it's, this isn't like just driving down the street. I mean, so there's a lot of logistical challenges to building out those areas. And number two, I would also highlight that they actually, the grant actually paid you over 10 years. So even though you had to be done in six, you only got paid for what you did over 10. Um, and, and if your next question is, well, why did they do that? Yeah. <laugh>, I'm not smart enough to tell you that answer <laugh>, but that's just the way it works. Jessica Denson (45:14):

So, so do you have to front a lot because of that? Bill Baker (45:17):

You Jessica Denson (45:18):

Do. You have to take on some of the Yeah. Bill Baker (45:19):

You, you do. And so, you know, I'm, I'm really proud to say, you know, we won, um, calf, uh, just over five years ago. And so, uh, in most of the states, the six states that we won calf, uh, we're completely done and certified by the FCC in those states. And we're just down to literally a couple states where we're like 95% done, and we'll be wrapping up this summer. So super proud of the work Jessica Denson (45:49):

That's fantastic Bill Baker (45:50):

That the entire team has done as we've met our, our calf obligation, um, and been signed off on for doing so by the FCC. And we're in the early stages of, of RDOF. So this year we'll be, uh, pretty much 40% or higher across the entirety of our RDOF obligation and that mile, that milestone's due December 31. So we will, like, we've already cleared some, some states are already in excess of 40% as we sit here today at the beginning of June. And pretty much all the other states should get there by the end of August. There's always some, but a laggard that'll fall into September. But, you know, we'll be way ahead of our milestone on the RDOF program, which then sort of leads us to the next biggie that's around the corner, and that's the, the federal bead mm-hmm <affirmative>. Program that's really basically picking off all the remaining underserved and unserved areas in, in rural America. And so, we'll, we'll look to be a participant in that program as well as they, quite frankly, um, are tweaking the rules this month. <laugh> Yeah. With the new, with the new administration. Jessica Denson (47:02):

We're all waiting Bill Baker (47:03):

Will. Jessica Denson (47:03):

Yeah. Bill Baker (47:04):

We're all waiting. I, I believe, uh, commerce Secretary Lunik was giving a, a primer on that today, uh, in a committee hearing. And we're supposed to get the final updated rules on Friday, is the last I've heard. So I'm, I'm waiting with bated breath, probably along with thousands of other people who have been sort of riding the bead train these last three or four years Jessica Denson (47:27):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, something that also came outta the pandemic, the noticing the need, and so putting more money towards it. But absolutely, there can be a lot of hoops and stuff with these things is how difficult is some of the red tape for, I know you're not a necessarily a smaller ISP or mid-sized, you're not the giant ISPs, but you're right in the middle there. Right. Uh, how, how difficult can it be when, you know, you don't necessarily have somebody who's just dedicated to that for different ISPs? Is is that Bill Baker (47:59):

Hard? It, it, it is. The, the administrative challenges of participating in these programs on, on the front end may seem daunting Jessica Denson (48:10):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Bill Baker (48:10):

To, to participants and, and discourage them from, from participating. Um, to that, I would say the front end is nothing. It's the back end <laugh> when you're actually in the program. It, uh, the administrative challenges are, are real. Um, they are significant. Um, they're frustrating at times. Um, they're mind numbing at times. They're nonsensical at times. And, you know, like other things you, you can't control what you can't control. Jessica Denson (48:43):

Right. Bill Baker (48:44):

And so, you know, we, you just push through that. Uh, again, you have a, a great team of people, um, who are really driving that on a daily basis. Um, and, you know, and, and, and I certainly don't mean and all to pick on the hand that feeds, but you, you, you just, sometimes when you get administrative requests that you go, hold on, what <laugh> like, that doesn't make any sense. Or, or I gave you that three months ago. Or, you know, so anyway, you just, you, you, you deal with it. It's a, it's a cost of being a participant Jessica Denson (49:27):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Bill Baker (49:28):

And, but, but it is a very real and significant consumer of resources, um, in being compliant. So it's not just about being compliant in the field and with your service. It's about being compliant with all the administrative dynamics that go along with being a program participant. Jessica Denson (49:50):

Gotcha. So, uh, you're really seeing, uh, your company called it. I, I mentioned in our tease for the podcast, uh, radical organic growth. You're, you're, you're doing some really cool things and you're growing quickly. Why do you think you're seeing so much growth? Bill Baker (50:07):

Well, I mean, uh, obviously our, our participation in, in whether it's, you know, federal programs like Caff and RDO, uh, some of the, some of the state and county funding that came out of COVID and the Pandemic, um, continued funding of broadband support into areas that just on their own economically won't support a quality broadband provider, Jessica Denson (50:35):

Right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Bill Baker (50:36):

And so, you know, so when I say we're experiencing radical organic growth, it's, I I really shouldn't complain <laugh>, uh, in any way about that, because that's what you take on when you participate in these programs, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I mean, you, you are taking on the obligation to grow your business into these areas within the deadlines and the milestones that are required. So, you know, pretty much every day across the 12 states that we operate every single weekday, we probably release anywhere from five to 10 new towers providing fixed wireless service in an area. Jessica Denson (51:23):

Wow. Bill Baker (51:24):

Um, every week we probably release hundreds, if not over a thousand, um, fiber passings in, in new fiber based service into a rural area or community. So, uh, a tremendous amount of coordination logistic from, from literally planning, logistics, purchasing, coordination, all the permitting that goes into all that, uh, all of those elements, and then rolling it into, uh, an operating network and serving those customers, um, is, you know, it is a, uh, it's a task. Um, and it's a task that, that, quite frankly, I feel like we excel at. Um, which is why we continue to, you know, grow the business, whether through these, um, obligated subsidies or whether it's just through organic growth and people are signing up for service in areas we exist. Um, you know, we're, we're, I'd say we're pretty good at what we do. Mm-hmm Jessica Denson (52:35):

<affirmative>. Uh, would there, is, is there any advice or lesson learned that you would share with other ISPs? I know don't give away any proprietary <laugh>, of course, but, you know, just, uh, since you, you've grown up with the company within the, within this space, uh, are there any things that, that you really, if you looked back on like, oh gosh, I would've done that differently, or <laugh>, um, that would perhaps help? Well, Bill Baker (53:00):

I think there's, there, there's almost in, in, in this business, being an internet service provider, there's sort of, there's sort of like two fundamental business models as, as I would describe it. And there's what I would call the small business entrepreneur who maybe has five or 10 employees, and he has a business that he can literally drive over his network from one side to the other in an hour or two. It's, it's very much, it's controllable. It's manageable. And it's, it's just, i i it saying you own your own job is probably sounds too derogatory, but it's, but it's someone who's, you know, they're working in the business and then there's going beyond that. And if you go beyond that in the internet service business, all, all I can say is it's radically important to scale the business and, and get within reason as large as you can and serve as many customers as you can because it's, it's very much a business about scale. Jessica Denson (54:16):

Mm-hmm Bill Baker (54:17):

<affirmative>. Um, and being able to leverage your platforms that you need to run the business, leverage your data center platform to leverage your network and, and spread your cost over as many subscribers as possible. And that just takes scale. And in doing that, that takes capital to grow that business. This is an incredibly capital intensive business on the front end. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so for those really small internet service providers, it's one of those things where to get over that hump sometimes that's gonna take a lot of money. And you can't just go over the hump a little bit. You need to like go a lot, Jessica Denson (54:59):

Go all way. Bill Baker (55:00):

Right. And, and that's really, really, if you go back to my conversation about Danny, and when he came to me to invest in his original business, that was what he needed. He needed the capital to grow that business beyond just a couple counties and to make it bigger. Ultimately, he decided to sell instead. But that was his challenge at the time, was he'd sort of hit the wall and just didn't have the capital to, to grow his legacy business. And I think that's a challenge for a lot of internet service providers. Is it, it's, it, it's, it's tough to do. It's really tough to do. Jessica Denson (55:40):

I'm glad you brought it back around full circle, because I just have a couple of more questions then I'll let you go. 'cause you're a busy guy. Um, and the idea that, uh, that Danny was looking for, that, that capital to grow it and how difficult that can be, are there for you, I, I know you're doing some stuff with RDO and Calf and, and we talked about that, but are there any upcoming projects or ideas that you're excited about for next links in the coming year, five years, 10 years down the road where you'd like to see it? Bill Baker (56:09):

Well, I mean, uh, obviously we're pushing more and more into fiber, um, in, in our service areas. We're also, um, just rolling out the summer mobile service. Um, you know, so you're, you're constantly looking at how can you serve the, the customers and the geographies where you're at. How can you serve them in, in the best manner possible in, in, with the technologies and services that, that they need in their lives. And so, you know, to me that is, from a service standpoint, probably the push into fiber and mobile is something that we're really excited about, uh, as we're, we're doing more of both. And then, and then I'd probably say, you know, we touched on earlier bead, um, beads around the corner. Um, you know, we were a, we were the largest winner nationally in the Path two program. We were the fifth largest winner in the RDO program.
(57:11)
Uh, I by no means wanna say we will be top 10 in bead, uh, but we will be a participant in the BEAD program. And I think that's one of the most exciting things for us, is how can we con continue to build out our network, continue to service these rural areas where we're at, um, through, uh, participating in the BEAD program. And so we're really, uh, looking forward. 'cause that would, you know, probably align well with what we're doing in the RDO program. We're over the next 2, 3, 4 years. Um, we would be expanding our network substantially, uh, inside the 12 states we're at now, but a sub substantial expansion of our network, uh, as a participant in RDOF and Prospectively Bead. Jessica Denson (58:01):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. Everybody's waiting for the <laugh>, the, the, the, the guidance new rules. They're ready. Bill Baker (58:06):

Yeah. New rules. Yeah, Jessica Denson (58:07):

Exactly. So, uh, uh, bill, my last question for you today. What do you hope people take away from our conversation and remember about next Length internet? Bill Baker (58:18):

Well, you know, I, I think it's that, um, you know, a lot of people look at, uh, technology companies and go, oh, you know, oh, you gotta be one of the big boys. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You, you gotta be a multi-billion dollar public company. And in, in order to compete effectively in this sector and in what I would, what I would tell the small or regional operators, internet service providers, I don't think that's true at all. I think you're better suited to serve the rural communities because you're fundamentally there serving side by side with them in the marketplace. You're not headquartered out of New York or outta some major metro area. You're in the communities, you know, ev every week, every month I am out in the field. Um, I'm talking to county judges about what they need in their county. I'm talking to school superintendents about what do they need next school season.
(59:21)
And it's, and it's really, it's interacting with the, the rural community leaders and, and how can we improve our service, you know, oh, you, you've got a builder who's wants to do a neighborhood outside of town over there, you know, okay, we'll reach out to 'em and see what we can do to bring internet out there. You know, it's, and so to me, I think it's, you, you don't need to be a multi-billion dollar company to compete effectively. I think it's just, does it take a little bit more hustle? Does it, does it take a little bit more intense focus on customer service to differentiate you from a big public company? Absolutely. Um, you know, but you can differentiate yourself with better customer service, um, in, in my opinion. And, and that's in, 'cause we live in an era where people have a lot of choices about who their internet service provider is. Jessica Denson (01:00:21):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Bill Baker (01:00:21):

And, you know, but, um, you know, I'm, I'm, I would hazard a guess. There's not many of my competitors out there who have their email on their website <laugh>. Yeah. Um, that they don't, you know, I, I have customers all the time, not that it's on the front page of my website. I have customers all the time track me down on my cell phone. Jessica Denson (01:00:45):

And that's something to be said for that one-on-one that you really don't get when you're talking about the Bill Baker (01:00:50):

Absolutely. Large, large companies. Jessica Denson (01:00:52):

Yeah. Bill Baker (01:00:52):

And I personally, any, any customer who goes to the effort of emailing me, I email back. Jessica Denson (01:01:00):

That's great. That's gotta feel wonderful as a customer too. The CEO is talking to me, <laugh>. Bill Baker (01:01:06):

Yes. Jessica Denson (01:01:07):

Yes. Bill Baker (01:01:07):

They may not, they may not like my answer, don't get me wrong. But, but I will email them back. And, and a lot of times it's just about escalation, right? Jessica Denson (01:01:16):

Uhhuh, <affirmative>, Bill Baker (01:01:17):

It's about, they, they want to know that their issue is being addressed and that the company cares. Um, and, and if they're gonna e if they're gonna put in the energy to email me, then I'm gonna put in the energy to making sure that they are addressed and, and heard. Jessica Denson (01:01:35):

I think that's great. It is a great place to leave it for today. Thank you so much, bill. I really appreciate you sharing your point of view and what you're doing with your company. Uh, I appreciate your time today. Bill Baker (01:01:46):

Absolutely. Thank you, Jessica. Jessica Denson (01:01:55):

Again, we've been talking today with Bill Baker, CEO of Next Link Internet. I'll include a link to the company's website in the description of this podcast. I'm Jessica Denson. Thanks for listening to Connected Nation. If you like our show and wanna know more about us, head to Connect nation.org or look for the latest episodes on your favorite podcast platform, including iTunes, iHeartRadio, apple, Google Podcast, Pandora, or Spotify.