On Inside Geneva this week: part two of our series marking the 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Imogen Foulkes talks to Mary Robinson, the second person to serve as UN Human Rights Commissioner. Even as a schoolgirl in Ireland, she was already passionate about human rights.
‘I was a bit of a bookworm, and I found a book with a photograph of Eleanor Roosevelt holding the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. That iconic photo.’
She became a campaigning lawyer, and then Ireland’s first female president, but still wanted to do more.
‘There was this office of High Commissioner which I was aware of. In fact, I'd seen some of its work in Rwanda, which had been very difficult work. All my knowledgeable friends said ‘you know Mary I wouldn't take that job’.’
Her time as Human Rights Commissioner was challenging.
‘I remember feeling to myself, I'm going to get on top of this somehow. This job is impossible, everything is very very difficult, it's extremely hard work but somehow I’m going to get on top of it. And it got better.’
‘Some governments were critical…’
‘Over and over again, I kept saying to myself ‘I represent the first three words of the charter of the United Nations: we the peoples. That's what I represent. Not the states.’
Today, her commitment is undimmed..
‘Human rights is the answer. We need to understand that everyone has these core human rights, that all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. That this is who we are.’
Please listen and subscribe to our science podcast -- the Swiss Connection.
Get in touch!
Thank you for listening! If you like what we do, please leave a review or subscribe to our newsletter.
On Inside Geneva this week: part two of our series marking the 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Imogen Foulkes talks to Mary Robinson, the second person to serve as UN Human Rights Commissioner. Even as a schoolgirl in Ireland, she was already passionate about human rights.
‘I was a bit of a bookworm, and I found a book with a photograph of Eleanor Roosevelt holding the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. That iconic photo.’
She became a campaigning lawyer, and then Ireland’s first female president, but still wanted to do more.
‘There was this office of High Commissioner which I was aware of. In fact, I'd seen some of its work in Rwanda, which had been very difficult work. All my knowledgeable friends said ‘you know Mary I wouldn't take that job’.’
Her time as Human Rights Commissioner was challenging.
‘I remember feeling to myself, I'm going to get on top of this somehow. This job is impossible, everything is very very difficult, it's extremely hard work but somehow I’m going to get on top of it. And it got better.’
‘Some governments were critical…’
‘Over and over again, I kept saying to myself ‘I represent the first three words of the charter of the United Nations: we the peoples. That's what I represent. Not the states.’
Today, her commitment is undimmed..
‘Human rights is the answer. We need to understand that everyone has these core human rights, that all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. That this is who we are.’
Please listen and subscribe to our science podcast -- the Swiss Connection.
Get in touch!
Thank you for listening! If you like what we do, please leave a review or subscribe to our newsletter.
This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host Image Folks, and this is a Swiss info production. In today's programme.
Speaker 2:Human rights is the answer. Everyone has these core of human rights. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. This is who we are.
Speaker 1:I have therefore decided to name Mrs Mary Robinson as the next High Commissioner for Human Rights.
Speaker 2:Well, I was advised that it wasn't a good position to take. All my knowledgeable friends said Mary, I wouldn't take that job.
Speaker 1:We're delighted at the appointment of President Robinson. It's essential from Annesi's point of view that the new commissioner would be a person who's a champion of human rights.
Speaker 2:Over and over again. I kept saying to myself I represent the first three words of the charter of the United Nations. We, the peoples, That's what I represent, not the states.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva. I'm Image Folks and, as many listeners know, we're devoting several podcasts this summer and autumn to human rights to mark the 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And today we continue with the second in our series of in-depth interviews with those who have led the United Nations human rights work. In June we talked to Jose Alalazzo, who became the UN's first human rights commissioner in 1994. He was succeeded by Mary Robinson in 1997. She had already had an amazingly successful career as a lawyer and as Ireland's first woman president before taking the UN job. So when I sat down with her I wanted to know first about her childhood and where her interest in politics and in human rights came from.
Speaker 2:I grew up in the west of Ireland. My parents were both medical doctors, though my mother didn't practice as a GP. After five of us arrived in six years in a good Catholic tradition I was wedged between those brothers and that gave me a very early interest in human rights and gender equality and, using my elbows and everything it took, i'm very competitive in sport and in running and everything with them. And my parents would say to me over and over again you have the same opportunities, we will give you the same chances, we will be, regardless, totally equal to your four brothers. But Irish society wasn't doing that. You just knew that girls were not as important as boys, that women were not as important as men, and I was determined at an early stage that that was one of the things that I would seek to fight.
Speaker 2:I do remember when I was in boarding school in Dublin. I spent a lot of time in the library and I was a bit of a bookworm And I found a book with a photograph of Eleanor Roosevelt holding the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that iconic photo. It was 10 years after 48. And I thought this is incredible And a woman shared that commission And that was to me something very unusual, very strange, almost hard to believe that that could happen.
Speaker 1:You when you were at university and you were studying law. You were very vocal in campaigning for women's rights, reforming the law around contraception and making homosexuality legal. Now I take these things for granted, but this was quite audacious in 1960s Ireland.
Speaker 2:Yes, that was why I wanted to study law. I felt that the law was oppressing people because it was reflecting the very rigid approach of the Catholic hierarchy and Catholic Church in Ireland at the time. I actually started in school making myself debased because I was very shy and I wanted my voice to be heard. But I had to battle my shyness. It was the same thing in university. At the beginning I used to bottle up completely, but I got better and better and then I was elected auditor of the Law Society.
Speaker 2:I chose in 1967 my team for the inauguration, which was law and morality in Ireland. I was even advised there was no law in that. In my inauguration I called for a removal of the constitutional ban on divorce. There was no ban on abortion because nobody was even thinking of abortion in those days. It wasn't conceivable. I could put a bad pun. So removal of the constitutional ban on divorce, that family planning should be legalized. Removing the criminal ban on condoms, etc. That homosexuality between consenting adults should not be a crime And finally, the suicide should not be a crime.
Speaker 1:By 1969, mary Robinson, at age just 25, was a law professor and had entered politics as a member of the Irish Senate. Her priorities on women's rights and on the decriminalization of homosexuality remained the same, but trying to legislate those things was very different from debating them at the Law Society.
Speaker 2:My first item on my agenda was to legalize family planning, But that was different from a student talking about it. Actually doing it in the parliament caused incredible outrage. I was the subject of vilification publicly And I got letters through the post with no social media. In those days that were very disturbing And I was quite rocked by it. Initially I found it because I had been quite popular and well regarded, achieving as a young woman a member of the Senate, and I was also a professor, And suddenly I was like the white witch from hell who was undermining Irish morality and society.
Speaker 1:But on the one hand and I can see that it happens to women who challenge a system and long held repressive practices But you actually also remained incredibly popular And now Mrs Robinson will make her first speech as president of Ireland.
Speaker 2:Citizens of Ireland. Menorna Heron, auguste Fierna Heron, you have chosen me to represent you and I am humbled and grateful for your trust.
Speaker 1:You became Ireland's first woman president and you had these to die for approval ratings.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, i had an active career as a lawyer, taking cases, a lot of them to do with discrimination against women. I took the case on homosexuality at the Court of Human Rights for David Norris. There were a number of other cases of trying to get rid of the idea that children would be somehow illegitimate And we won a case in the court in Strasbourg about that. So when I was approached to run for president I frankly wasn't very interested because I was already a member of chambers in London. My law career was taking off in the way I wanted, but law would be an instrument for social change And I was very happy with three young children. And you know I didn't see the presidency as being very relevant because it wasn't. At that time It was very high office, red carpets representing Ireland abroad, needing a lot of fanfare for any event in Ireland. So my six predecessors I was the seventh president were sort of elderly, male elderly men at the sort of end of their career And a kind of nice retirement post, frankly. And so when I read the oath of the president and saw, you know, the commitment, and thought if we had a directly elected president with that commitment that can operate at all levels at the local level, at the national level, at the international level. So I began to advocate for who would be the president And we all thought that the popular deputy prime minister a shoe in, as we would say in Ireland.
Speaker 2:When I was nominated to run, i was 101 outsider with the bookies. So anyway, it was an honor and it was a huge campaign. I mean you never do anything on your own, i mean the huge support when I was standing for the Senate at the age of 25, or when I was standing for president, i was conscious I was on the shoulders of hundreds and thousands of people who somehow placed a trust. And then for the seven years I was fulfilling that trust And then I decided not to seek a second term. And just after that there was this office of high commissioner, which I was aware of. In fact I'd seen some of its work in Rwanda, which had been very difficult work. In my three visits as president to Rwanda, un Secretary-General Kofi Annan announced that he was making one of the most important appointments within his gift. The post was that of UN Human Rights Commissioner and the nominee was President Robinson, a woman he described as an extraordinary leader.
Speaker 1:When you took that job, un Human Rights Commissioner, you were only the second person to actually have it. It was just still a really rather new post. Was it yours to fashion as you wanted, or were there already quite strict parameters about what you should be doing?
Speaker 2:Well, i was advised that it wasn't a good position to take. All my knowledgeable friends said you know, mary, i wouldn't take that job. Anyway, when I arrived in Geneva I found that our office was in the back of the Palais des Nations, a very low position. My office was a beautiful office and the deputy's office was a very fine office, but most of my working colleagues were working in long, dreary corridors. So we started from really rock bottom And it was very difficult. And then, very soon after that, we were facing into the 50th anniversary in 1998 of the Universal Declaration. South Korea provided the office with computers. We couldn't believe it. We now had computers, get to learn computer adaptation, and that took a little while. That was already beginning when I arrived, but it was a big, big moment.
Speaker 1:The joys of learning computers in Geneva didn't last long. The United Nations was harshly criticized for its handling of the situation in Rwanda. Questions are now being raised over whether the UN has changed enough to prevent similar atrocities from happening again. The UN was heavily criticized in the wake of the massacre for not intervening. As the new Human Rights Commissioner, Mary Robinson faced multiple human rights crises, among them Rwanda, where the UN had been widely criticized for not preventing the genocide in which 800,000 people were killed.
Speaker 2:I went on a very difficult trip back to Rwanda where I had had three welcomed visits as President of Ireland, but when I arrived wearing my UN hat they utterly disregarded and in effect kind of humiliated me. I had difficulty meeting Kagami, whom I had met at all the other visits.
Speaker 1:Why do you think that was?
Speaker 2:Because of the UN, the UN record. They were very anti-UN. When I went back to Ireland after that visit to Uganda first and then Rwanda and then South Africa I was exhausted. I was taking sleeping pills And I was actually my mental health was being affected. I didn't realize it fully until I went back to Ireland. I didn't want to see my family, i just wanted to go to my bedroom and be alone And I was just completely exhausted.
Speaker 2:And I had a brother, a doctor. My oldest brother had gone to New Zealand. I was back on his first visit and said Mary, you're on the verge of a mental breakdown. And when I heard my brother saying that, i thought no, i'm not, no way. And I threw away the sleeping pills And I kind of took another fortnight to rest And I came back and I remember feeling to myself I'm going to get on top of this somehow. This job is impossible. Everything is very, very difficult. It's extremely hard work, but I'm somehow going to get on top of it. And it got better. But it was the worst possible year because of the busiest possible year. Every country, including China, wanted me to visit, which I did in September of 1998.
Speaker 1:You said you found it exhausting and hugely challenging. Was this the challenges of this job upholding human rights, things that were going on around the world Or is it that combined with the politics inside the UN?
Speaker 2:It was largely the policies and processes of the UN. The treaty bodies were complaining they weren't being properly supported. Every rapporteur was telling me their job was almost impossible because they weren't getting proper support. In other words, everyone was complaining and I was the person that was supposed to. I did make a plea for extra budgetary funding And actually we got some. But what I realized?
Speaker 2:Kofi Annan had introduced his reform package, which he had highlighted the importance of four areas peace and security, development, economic and humanitarian. And he said human rights has to be part of all of those. So the High Commissioner for Human Rights, uniquely, would be a member of all four. Well, i can tell you, when I was there, human rights was spoken about. When I was not there, nobody else was speaking about human rights. So nobody else was there to speak about human rights.
Speaker 2:So I gave a Romana lecture in, i think, october 1997 in Oxford And I gave it to a packed audience and I said that the United Nations had lost the plot on human rights And I gave chapter and verse of some of the problems. And the following morning I got a call from my boss saying Mary, you can't criticize the UN. You're in the UN now. And I said well, when you appointed me Secretary General, you said I should remain an outsider mentally for as long as possible. And he said no, no, you can't criticize the UN when you're in it. And I said well, i'm going to do my job as best I can and left it to that.
Speaker 1:You see that looking back, as perhaps one of your biggest achievements is helping the UN refined the plot on human rights.
Speaker 2:I think, possibly helping to do that. because over and over again, I kept saying to myself I represent the first three words of the charter of the United Nations we, the peoples, That's what I represent, not the states. They have their own way of doing things. Even the UN system is the way of doing things. I'm the High Commissioner that represents we, the peoples.
Speaker 2:And the other thing was I realized I had no power as such. I had no big stick. I had no executive way of trying to get people to do what I dearly wanted them to do. So the only way that I could bring attention to human rights problems was going there.
Speaker 2:So I made a great many visits to places of conflict in various parts of Africa, notably the DRC, of course, in Colombia, which was very bad at the time, in parts of Asia, etc. But every time I came back my team would say but you've come back energized? And I would say, yes, I am energized by what people are doing on the ground, by their belief, by their courage. I only visit for a few days in Bogota, say, where people are being killed, trade unionists and teachers and lawyers, etc. But I'm only there for a few days and I'm by and large protected, Whereas they have to stay. And I found myself hugely. my batteries would get charged by the belief in human rights of those who knew, because they were deprived of their rights, how important they were, whether they were voting rights, whether they were economic and social rights, whether they were rights to a fair, uncorrupt political system, whatever.
Speaker 1:I mean, this is a job that has been described as the most difficult at the UN.
Speaker 2:I think the second most difficult, i think the most difficult is Secretary General, because it's the one where you have to make all these compromises.
Speaker 1:Now, just before we hear more from Mary Robinson about some of the maybe less energizing moments of her time as human rights commissioner, here's some news about our next episode of Inside Geneva. Hi there, my name is Nadine and I'm a humanoid social robot from the University of Geneva. Should we be worried or hopeful about what artificial intelligence can do for us, or should I say what it can do to us? The UN's International Telecommunications Union has just hosted a summit called AI for Good, bringing together governments, industry leaders and scientists to discuss the possible benefits. Here's a flavor of what I and other journalists experienced at that summit. My purpose in life is to help people by providing them with companionship. People were very happy to talk to Nadine. They were saying you are my only friend. They came to her to play being good. There are real problems with its ability to accelerate disinformation and enhance bias, so we could see ourselves going down the same pathway that we did on social media. Out on July 25th, we'll be reflecting on what we learned and hearing from some of the summit participants, and I don't mean just the human ones. My creator has been nothing but kind to me and I am very happy with my current situation. I will be working alongside humans to provide assistance and support and will not be replacing any existing jobs. Are you sure about that, grace? Yes, i am sure We should be cautious about the future development of AI. Urgent discussion is needed.
Speaker 1:Now let's return to Mary Robinson and one of the most difficult periods of her time in office. Is the world doing enough to combat racial discrimination? There's hope, and the struggle to make our world more equal must continue. In 2001, the UN staged the first ever World Conference Against Racism, held in Durban, south Africa. It should have been a moment of visionary optimism but was overshadowed by a row over language in a preparatory document, language widely viewed as anti-Semitic. The World Conference on Racism accused of being anti-Semitic. The US pulled out of the first one and it claims that Israel is being unfairly singled out. Has the conference been politically hijacked And what does this mean for the fight against racism? You did face challenges, and Israel in particular. Now, israel and how its human rights record is scrutinized is a challenge for every human rights commissioner. How do you reflect back on that? You did come into a lot of criticism at the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting. I was as determined as anybody can be to be able to understand the Israeli and the Palestinian position and try and help bring it together. But unfortunately, because of the occupation and because of the long history of violation of human rights, you cannot treat them equally. And whatever I would do, the Palestinians would praise, so the Israelis would feel that I was on the other side, which I wasn't. You know it's an impossible task. I'm still determined as an elder, as chair of the elders.
Speaker 2:We've gone on a number of visits. I've listened to and learned a lot from Jimmy Carter in the way he tried to do the same thing, and we have to keep trying. But it is extremely difficult because any recognition of the Palestinians they will over appreciate, because they're not given global recognition enough for the suffering that they have, for the occupation, for the deprivation of rights etc. And for the situation currently that they're in. And so you can't come out of it without paying the cost of trying to do your best and being vilified for it. I'm very distressed that I've been regarded as being anti-Semitic. It couldn't be less true.
Speaker 1:Was it hard for you at the time? the criticism from Israel and then also from the United States?
Speaker 2:I suffered from an inner sense myself that I am absolutely not anti-Semitic. There is no way I could be. So actually I didn't listen enough to the criticism. I actually didn't defend myself enough, believe it or not, especially in the United States, you know. I just kind of dismissed a growing rumbling that was going on because it's not true. The other way, it didn't hurt me because it wasn't true until then it began to hurt me politically in that sense.
Speaker 2:And then the last major conference I was in charge of in my time as High Commissioner I was Secretary General of, was the World Conference Against Racism. I put my heart and soul into it Of all the things that I could try and achieve. This for me was I got church leaders, i got political leaders to try and sign up to a, but unfortunately there was a decision taken by the governments And only the governments take these decisions that the regional, one of the regional sessions would be in Iran. Very bad decision, you know, i would not have wanted it at all, but the governments I think Iran was the only country in the region that offered And the other way these things happen. And so in that anti-Semitic language was included in square brackets, and of course, square brackets means not agreed And it was quite clear to everybody who understands the UN it would never be agreed And at the end of the day it would lapse. But it was publicized in the United States and believed by President Bush, not by Colin Powell.
Speaker 2:Colin Powell wanted to come to the conference. I got on very well with him, but he was trapped in his own political situation And I was trapped in mine And he couldn't go, and at a very low level. A delegation came and eventually left And Israel left as well And we almost we almost saw the collapse And I I think I played some role in preventing the collapse of the conference late at night, through a whole night of arguing with the EU And in particular with the father of Charles Michel, louis Michel. He was determined that Belgium had to compensate for what they've done to the DRC And this conference had to work And he and I were allies beyond belief on that. We got a successful conference. It should have been broadcast throughout the world. And we got a successful conference against racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia. Three days later you had 9-11, the attacks And the whole thing was wiped And somehow even Durban became part of something to do with 9-11 in some curious way in America.
Speaker 1:And this is how these things can get rewritten as time goes by.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, i mean, and that's the way it is, that's the way it is, you know it's, it's, it's sort of it gets, it gets into a kind of bad mix And there's very little you can do except just continue and be yourself and know what you are and who you are.
Speaker 1:Mary Robinson has certainly continued to be herself. She's still campaigning for rights, now as chair of the Elders, the group of global leaders founded by Nelson Mandela to promote peace, justice and human rights. Robinson is especially focused on climate, something she admits she neglected during her time as human rights commissioner.
Speaker 2:I often say in some humility I came late to the climate crisis. I never mentioned it in my seven years as president. I spoke about the environment in Irish terms, you know, urged better environment and biodiversity, but very much in Irish terms. When I became high commissioner, another part of the UN was dealing with the climate And I was in my silo a large silo of human rights and gender equality and indigenous peoples and people with disabilities, and I left it. And it was when I was working on economic and social rights for a small NGO I established, called Realizing Rights in African countries, that I realized I'd missed one of the worst ways of undermining human rights, which was the accelerating climate shocks. We're almost done.
Speaker 1:I have one last question for you, and that's one I asked everyone, is what would, for you, be the best way to celebrate and really honour this 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?
Speaker 2:Well, actually I've been thinking a little bit about the 75th anniversary, not necessarily in expecting a question like this, but I actually think that we have to fundamentally understand the importance of human rights because of the threat from what they call regenerative AI, these learning machine systems.
Speaker 2:They're undermining our reality, our facts, our language, etc. Human rights is the answer. We need to understand that everyone has these core of human rights. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights, but this is who we are And out from that, much more importantly than ever, and into very, very participative democratic systems that prevent the abuse of elections. We're going to see horrible abuse of elections, probably in the United States and in the UK maybe next year, and so on, and because of these chatbot things that I only half understand as an elder, but I understand enough to know it can destroy the safe space of democracy. We need to really fight now to re-corner the importance of human rights, and I think the link is climate justice. So I think a real understanding of the importance for human beings, of our values, of human rights, of an approach of climate justice, of much more fairness and equity gender equality, of course, and inclusiveness, non-discrimination That world is more important than it's ever been because it's under a particular threat.
Speaker 1:And that brings us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva. But just interesting, before we go, to note that both the former human rights commissioners we've interviewed so far, jose Alalasso and Mary Robinson, raised the issue of artificial intelligence and the dangers the new technology could pose to our rights and freedoms. Don't forget, inside Geneva will be taking a look at what the UN might do to harness the benefits of AI in our next episode. That's it for this week. My thanks to Mary Robinson for a great conversation. I'm Imogen Folks and thanks, of course, to you for listening. A reminder you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a Swiss info production. You can email us on insidegeniva at swissinfoch and subscribe to us and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Check out our previous episodes how the International Red Cross unites prisoners of war with their families, or why survivors of human rights violations turn to the UN in Geneva for justice. I'm Imogen Folks. Thanks again for listening.