It’s more than a year and a half since Russia invaded Ukraine. The war shows no sign of ending, and Moscow is cracking down on all opposition.
This week, Inside Geneva asks how we can support human rights inside Russia.
"Since the full scale invasion of Ukraine had been launched in February of last year, the regime has brought back the entire arsenal of Soviet style repressive techniques, used to eradicate all dissent within the country, and scare people into silence," says Evgenia Kara-Murza, Russian human rights defender.
Supporting dissent in Russia is important for all of us.
Host Imogen Foulkes also talkes to Mariana Katzarova, UN special rapporteur for Russia. She said: "I do care what kind of Russia will be there next to our borders of Europe and of Eastern Europe. Whether it will be a black hole where people will be disappearing, being tortured. being arbitrarily detained."
"I have a message for the international community: please see us as your partners. We want a different Russia, a Russia based on the rule of law and respect for human rights. That is our goal," concludes Evgenia Kara-Murza.
But how far away is that goal? How long will it take to reach it?
Louis Charbonneau, United Nations director at Human Rights Watch says: "It takes a lot of effort to suppress the truth, to destroy and muzzle every possible critic, and to circulate absurd propaganda the way the Russian government does. It takes a lot of energy. Time is against the oppressors like Vladimir Putin, like Xi Jinping, and others. They will not last, but that doesn't mean that we're not in store for a rough ride."
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It’s more than a year and a half since Russia invaded Ukraine. The war shows no sign of ending, and Moscow is cracking down on all opposition.
This week, Inside Geneva asks how we can support human rights inside Russia.
"Since the full scale invasion of Ukraine had been launched in February of last year, the regime has brought back the entire arsenal of Soviet style repressive techniques, used to eradicate all dissent within the country, and scare people into silence," says Evgenia Kara-Murza, Russian human rights defender.
Supporting dissent in Russia is important for all of us.
Host Imogen Foulkes also talkes to Mariana Katzarova, UN special rapporteur for Russia. She said: "I do care what kind of Russia will be there next to our borders of Europe and of Eastern Europe. Whether it will be a black hole where people will be disappearing, being tortured. being arbitrarily detained."
"I have a message for the international community: please see us as your partners. We want a different Russia, a Russia based on the rule of law and respect for human rights. That is our goal," concludes Evgenia Kara-Murza.
But how far away is that goal? How long will it take to reach it?
Louis Charbonneau, United Nations director at Human Rights Watch says: "It takes a lot of effort to suppress the truth, to destroy and muzzle every possible critic, and to circulate absurd propaganda the way the Russian government does. It takes a lot of energy. Time is against the oppressors like Vladimir Putin, like Xi Jinping, and others. They will not last, but that doesn't mean that we're not in store for a rough ride."
Please listen and subscribe to our science podcast -- the Swiss Connection.
Get in touch!
Thank you for listening! If you like what we do, please leave a review or subscribe to our newsletter.
This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host, Imogenfolks, and this is a Swiss info production In today's programme.
Speaker 2:Russia is not going to go away. Russia will be there forever, geographically, as a country, as a very important country in the context of the United Nations.
Speaker 3:The Russian state is not the entire Russia, and I cannot stop being part of the country that I love.
Speaker 4:We do have to look towards the future and we do need to support the people of Russia who want democracy, who want a government that is accountable and respects human rights.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to this edition of Inside Geneva. I'm Imogenfolks and in today's programme, while I know, our attention and concern is focused on the Middle East, and that is a topic we'll address in future episodes. Today we're going to talk about Russia, the human rights situation inside Russia and Moscow's attempts to wriggle out of its diplomatic isolation at the United Nations by standing for a seat on the UN Human Rights Council.
Speaker 4:Quite clearly. Russia does not belong on the Human Rights Council. The General Assembly Resolution that created the Human Rights Council set standards for members. They're supposed to uphold international human rights standards. Russia doesn't even come close to them.
Speaker 3:We want a different Russia, a Russia based on the rule of law and respect for human rights. That is our goal.
Speaker 2:We should bear witness to a situation of repression as severe as the one in Russia at the moment against civic space, against human rights defenders, journalists, dissidents.
Speaker 1:A couple of weeks ago, I had the honour to chair a side event at the Human Rights Council called the cost of dissent testimonies of Russia's political repression, taking part where Mariana Katsarova, the new special rapporteur for Russia, evgenia Karamoorza, russian human rights defender, and wife of Vladimir Karamoorza, who, for criticising the war in Ukraine, was sentenced to 25 years in prison in Siberia. Joining the side event, too, was Kirill Korotyev, a Russian lawyer with the Agora Human Rights Group. I began by asking Mariana Katsarova, whose job it is to assess the situation of human rights in Russia, how they could be supported.
Speaker 2:How can we help the civil society inside Russia, the very few that are so brave to continue their work despite brave danger? And I was thinking that who are the people that we champion as human rights champions in the world? I was thinking about Anna Politkovskaya from Russia, about Natalia Stemirova from Chechnya in the Russian Federation, about Nelson Mandela or Dr King in the United States, or the list is long, from each continent, and all of them paid one way or another the price of either spending all their life in prison or spending their life for human rights, which was cut short. They were murdered, and I thought for speaking truth to power. And then, approaching the Yuan building, I was thinking but we are the power, ladies and gentlemen, and these people are people like us, but actually much braver and much stronger than we are, because they're speaking the truth, they dare to speak the truth to us, the ones in power.
Speaker 6:Anger at Vladimir Putin's partial mobilization bubbling over into protests.
Speaker 1:As Marianna said, it often takes real courage to speak truth to power. Yevgeniya Karamoorza provided graphic details of what that means for human rights defenders inside Russia.
Speaker 3:Since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February of last year, the regime has brought back the entire arsenal of Soviet-style repressive techniques to eradicate all dissent within the country and scare people into silence. The use of torture, an intimidation by the so-called law enforcement, does not even surprise anyone anymore, as Mikhail Krieger, a Russian activist recently sentenced to seven years in prison, said in his final speech to the so-called court. If you ever hear or read that Krieger had second thoughts, or Krieger recanted and apologized, know that there is a dire threat to my family or me. This is a common thing that now political prisoners add to their last speeches before being sentenced to absolutely atrocious years and years in prison. Today, thousands and thousands of Russian citizens are risking their freedom and very often their lives, to stand up to the cruel and all-powerful repressive machine, knowing quite well that they could be subject to punitive psychiatry, as journalist Maria Ponomarenko, or endless torture of a disciplinary cell, like Alexei Navalny, historian Yuri Dmitriev or municipal deputy Alexei Gorinov, or a Stalin-era prison term of up to 15 years for saying no to the war.
Speaker 3:I could read these names and tell you the stories for hours. Another story that I simply have to mention is that of Anatoliy Berezikov. He was a Russian anti-war activist who was arrested in Rostov-on-Don for putting up leaflets of the Ukrainian project I Want to Live that helps Russian soldiers surrender. After having been repeatedly beaten and tortured in detention, he died. During his trial, he repeatedly said that he was afraid that he would just disappear and be forgotten. So I want to make sure that this man, the story of this man who also wanted to live, is known.
Speaker 5:Putin has announced a partial military mobilization to help fight the war in Ukraine. In a television address, president Putin said the West wanted the end of Russia, just as it had brought the Soviet Union to an end. 10,000 Russians have crossed the day here since Putin's mobilization decree almost a week ago. Some fleeing call-up papers they've already been sent.
Speaker 1:And, as lawyer Kirill Korote have explained, increasingly in Russia, anti-war protesters, human rights defenders or civil society groups are not being prosecuted in ordinary courts because any dissent is now being classed as terrorism and the full might of Russia's rigid military courts is being turned on them.
Speaker 6:Terrorism means that the trial is before military court. It's most likely to be behind closed doors. There are only four military courts competent to hear cases in the whole of the country, so it's likely to be heard away from your community, which can come and help and support. And the judge cannot sentence the defendant to a penalty lower than that prescribed by the court. So it's never less than five years in prison, and so no conditional convictions, at least five years in prison, and also no release on parole. You are on the terrorist list and after you are released, you will not be able to spend more than 100 euros because of the bank restrictions. So that's the new trend.
Speaker 3:In the latest blow to Russia's dwindling civil society, the Supreme Court there has ordered the liquidation of one of the country's most prominent human rights groups.
Speaker 6:Members of Russia's oldest human rights organisation, memorial, are reeling tonight after decision by the general prosecutor to apply to the country's Supreme Court to liquidate the organisation.
Speaker 1:What this means, says Mariana Katsurova, is that in Russia, the law designed to protect people and defend their rights has instead been weaponised to oppress them.
Speaker 2:It's aggression inside Russia against civil society and anybody who thinks differently. It's almost a Ruralian level of repression of anybody who you know, of the thought police. If you think differently, you have to be persecuted through administrative laws, through criminal prosecution. The reconceivable law in Russia has been revised and used as a tool of silencing children for drawing anti-war pictures. Many, many decades the international community has been closing their eyes of what's happening in Russia. It didn't happen now for the first time. As I said, journalists were killed 20 years ago.
Speaker 6:The diplomatic wheels are still turning, even as Vladimir Putin's tanks are rolling closer to Kiev. The United Nations in Geneva was the centre for more diplomacy.
Speaker 1:Given the scale of repression in Russia, listeners may find it astonishing that Russia chose this moment to stand for the UN Human Rights Council. Its 47 members, elected by all 193 UN member states at the General Assembly, are supposed to have, if not unblemished, then at least fairly good human rights records. Russia was kicked off the council last year following its invasion of Ukraine. This month, when it came to the vote at the UN General Assembly, Albania and Bulgaria stood against Russia and eventually they won.
Speaker 6:The result of the voting is as follows. Russia was defeated in its bid to regain a seat in the UN's premier human rights body by a significant majority in an election in the General Assembly.
Speaker 1:In what was a secret ballot, Russia did get a pretty hefty 83 votes. To dig deeper into the reasons why, I spoke to Louis Charbonneau, UN director for Human Rights Watch, and asked him first how on earth Russia had done so well.
Speaker 4:It's actually a very interesting question and I've been asking myself the same thing. I think that there are signs that many UN member states are moving on, that they're fed up with the discussions about the Ukraine war and they're thinking about their interests. Russia is an important country, let's face it. They sell weapons to a lot of countries. They're an important agricultural exporter. They're an important energy exporter for oil and gas. These are things that countries considered to be important. It's been more than a year and a half since Russia launched its full-scale invasion. Despite the atrocities, there's a large number of countries in the world that are indifferent to or hostile towards human rights and they don't care about the war crimes. I expect that it's some of those countries. Yeah, that is a worrying number in a certain sense, but Russia's still lost, thankfully.
Speaker 1:What kind of message do you think that vote sends to Russians themselves? There is this kind of. Certainly. The propaganda message is how everybody's against us, everybody's being horrible to us, and yet there must be people in Russia who also think yeah, good decision, our government doesn't belong on the Human Rights Council right now.
Speaker 4:I think the signal is clear. The vast majority of UN member states nearly two-thirds said quite clearly Russia does not belong on the Human Rights Council, and the General Assembly resolution that created the Human Rights Council set standards for members. They're supposed to uphold international human rights standards. They're supposed to cooperate with UN human rights mechanisms. Russia doesn't even come close to doing either of those, so they have no business being there. That was the view of the vast majority of member states. That's the signal. I do hope that Russians who have access to VPNs and others will get that.
Speaker 1:I have been talking to human rights defenders from Russia on the sidelines of the human rights council. One of the points they made was keep holding out hand to us. I mean, how do you, human rights watch? Are you able to support human rights defenders inside Russia?
Speaker 4:Yes, absolutely. We believe that Russian human rights defenders. They have been decimated, devastated, persecuted, silenced. We know about the assassinations of journalists, journalists killed in mysterious circumstances for decades in Puchins, russia. So we have no illusions about how bad it is. And, yes, those people who are willing to fight for human rights in Russia, who are willing to criticize it, who are willing to call this special military operation for what it is a war, a brutal, deadly war characterized by atrocities, mass atrocities, crimes against humanity, and all of that, people who are speaking the truth. They pay a huge cost for that and they should be supported. It should not be a crime to speak the truth, but sadly it is in Russia, as it is in so many of the countries that we look at closely. If you look at the human rights watch world report, it's thick as the Manhattan phone book, as it used to be when people actually used phone books.
Speaker 1:It's a core dilemma, isn't it? That in the human rights council, countries complain about finger pointing and being punished. And okay, Russia is isolated. And yet, at the same time, as it's been put to me by Russian human rights defenders, Russia is not going away, and one of them said to me we are trying to build the future here. So Okay, no Russian diplomat on the Human Rights Council, but don't forget about us.
Speaker 4:It's a fair point, and I've heard people saying oh, russia should be expelled from the UN, they should have their permanent seat on the UN Security Council removed. I've heard the Ukrainian government talking about that. It's not going to happen. I will make that prediction here and now that it's just not going to happen. And, yes, russia is here to stay. I don't see it as feasible to remove their permanent seat on the Security Council either.
Speaker 4:So we do have to look towards the future and we do need to support the people of Russia who want democracy, who want a government that is accountable and respects human rights. We say the same thing about China and we tell the UN leadership that ultimately, the future of China and the same goes for Russia is the people. In the case of China, over one billion people. They're the ones who matter, not the small number of government officials that you deal with, who represent one of the most oppressive governments on the planet. So it's really important to build those bridges today to the people who are willing to stick their necks out for human rights, for respecting human dignity, and if we don't do that, then we're denying those people the possibility to get support for building a future in Russia. That is a good one. We're also shooting ourselves in the foot.
Speaker 6:I think Thousands of people around the world take part in demonstrations condemning Russia's President, vladimir Putin, and calling for an end to the war.
Speaker 1:Louis's point there about shooting ourselves in the foot is an important one. Amidst the politics and jockeying for position at the UN Human Rights Council, there are also clearer, wiser heads who think about the future and no, as Marianna Katsarova explains, that supporting human rights in Russia is a job for the long term.
Speaker 2:We should bear witness to a situation of repression as severe as the one in Russia at the moment against civic space, against human rights defender, journalist dissidents, bus drivers, anybody who opposes the war on Ukraine, anybody who doesn't want to fight in Ukraine. I think it's important in each of our countries to also look into how can we support the civil society representatives in exile. We need to nurture them, to help them, to support them today, because these are the people that will be building tomorrow's Russia, and Russia is not going to go away. Russia will be there forever, geographically, as a country, as a very important country in the context of the United Nations, as one of the big P5s. So no climate is going to be protected without protecting the victims and the defenders. No wars could be resolved without protecting the human rights defenders.
Speaker 2:I do care what kind of Russia will be there next to our borders of Europe and a Eastern Europe, whether it will be a black hole where people will be disappearing, being tortured, being arbitrarily detained, or this will be a country where Keryl Korothev and Evgenia Kramurza she will be a politician, obviously he will continue being a human rights lawyer this will be the people that will rule this country and we will freely be talking to them inside their own country. So the situation is great right now in Russia. But somebody reminded me today that the night is darker just before dawn and I think we are in the middle of the night right now, sometimes around four o'clock in the morning, three, four. But I believe in this dawn because it's in our hands to really try and speak, shed light, but also take care of the exiled Russian dissidents and anti-war critics and human rights defenders and journalists that are in our countries and we cannot treat all Russians with this blanket approach.
Speaker 2:The Russians are responsible. There is no such thing. I'm a human rights expert. I don't believe in group guilt. People are not guilty because of their governments.
Speaker 4:Heba says that she was held at a police station for 28 hours and ordered to sign a statement of guilt.
Speaker 1:Are we at that dark point just before the light of dawn? Marianna's optimism is heartening. So too is the General Assembly rejection of Russia's bid to join the Human Rights Council, and the Council itself, faced with a decision on whether or not to renew Marianna's mandate as special rapporteur for Russia, gave a resounding yes, despite opposition from Moscow. So scrutiny of human rights inside Russia will continue, something Evgenia Karamoorza welcomes. Work with us for the future is her plea.
Speaker 3:I have a message for the international community Please see us as your partners. We want a different Russia, a Russia based on the rule of law and respect for human rights. That is our goal. This is why those tens of thousands of Russians are being repressed in the country. This is why hundreds of thousands of Russians were forced to flee, because we want to live in a country based on the rule of law and respect for human rights. And many people are risking their freedom and, very often, their lives, like my husband, to prove that.
Speaker 3:My kids saw their father in a coma twice in two years after two poisonings that he was lucky to survive, and they saw their father pack his bags and went back to Russia to continue his fight. There are many Russians like that. So please see us as your partners, because the only way for Russia to stop being a threat to itself and its neighbors is for it to become a democracy. And it is, yes, for us Russians to change Russia and make sure that it is a democracy. But that message of solidarity from the international community would be very, very helpful. The Russian state is not the entire Russia, and I cannot stop being part of the country that I love.
Speaker 4:Protesters facing down the police in the Russian Republic of Dagestan. Resistance is growing inside Russia against the war in Ukraine. Hundreds of people have been arrested.
Speaker 1:It's heartening to hear Evgenia's determination in the face of the oppression and danger she and her family continue to face. But how long can that determination be sustained? Can it outlast Putin's oppressive regime? Louis Charbonneau of Human Rights Watch has some words of hope.
Speaker 4:That's the million dollar question. Right, how sustainable is an oppressive regime like what we see in Russia? I've seen comparisons to Stalinist Russia and then I've seen other people say quite credibly, that actually what's happening now is worse than Stalinist Russia. Now you know I wouldn't set much store by these kinds of comparisons. Things are always different. But there's no doubt that it is extremely bad. It's extremely dire.
Speaker 4:But these kinds of regimes it takes a lot of effort to suppress the truth, to destroy and muzzle every possible critic and to circulate absurd propaganda the way the Russian government does. It takes a lot of energy. They're doing their best at it. We see this in China, we see it in other oppressive governments. But we're still here. We're making noise. People like you, the journalists, are writing the truth and not buying the propaganda Either.
Speaker 4:The human rights defenders they're not all in prison. Many of them have fled abroad. Some of them are working quietly behind the scenes. They've stayed in Russia. Russia will not, if I can present a little bit of optimism here, russia cannot destroy all of those people, nor can China or any oppressive government. Right, the human rights defenders ultimately always survive. They can get some of them, they can silence some of them, but they will not get all of them.
Speaker 4:I know it sounds corny, but the late Vatsov Havil, the playwright, former president of Czechoslovakia, czech Republic, once said that let's see if I can get this right that love and truth triumphs over lies and hate, and I think it's really true. History has shown that if you look over the past 200 years, slavery is basically gone. Once upon a time, lots of people thought slavery was great. Now it's anathema. There has been progress If you look back at that 200 year trajectory. We are in a very difficult time right now and the world is changing. I don't want to minimize the difficulties, but there is a lot to be proud of in terms of human progress and human rights and respecting people's dignity. We have a ways to go, but I think that Time is against the oppressors. Like Vladimir Putin, like Xi Jinping and others. They will not last, but that doesn't mean that we're not in store for a rough ride.
Speaker 1:And that brings us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva. My thanks to Evgenia Karamoorza, mariana Katsarova, kirill Korotyev and Louis Charbonneau for their thoughts and their time. Next time on Inside Geneva, we'll be continuing with our series of interviews with former UN Human Rights Commissioners, and talking to this lady.
Speaker 2:Behind today's racial violence, systemic racism and discriminatory policing lies the failure to acknowledge and confront the legacy of the slave trade and colonialism.
Speaker 1:Michelle Batchlett held the job from 2018 to 2022. Very stormy times, including the Covid-19 pandemic, russia's invasion of Ukraine and China's treatment of its Uyghur community. What are her thoughts now? You can find out by listening. That episode is out on October 31st on all your favourite podcast platforms. A reminder you've been listening to Inside Geneva from SwissInfo, the international public media company of Switzerland, available in many languages as well as English. Check out our other content at wwwswissinfoch. I'm Imogen Folks. Thanks again for listening and do join us next time on Inside Geneva.