On Inside Geneva this week: part six of our series marking the 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Imogen Foulkes talks to Michelle Bachelet, who served as UN Human Rights Commissioner from 2018 to 2022. She was a young woman during Chile’s military dictatorship, and experienced human rights violations first hand.
“You needed to be as strong as possible, and not to fail and not to... how could I say confess things that could harm other people.”
When democracy returned to Chile, Bachelet served as her country’s president twice. Valuable experience, she believes, for later, persuading world leaders to respect human rights.
“I could put myself in the shoes of that person who was making those decisions, and tried to think which could be the arguments that would convince them to respect human rights. That it's not only the right thing to do but also the smart thing.”
She came under huge pressure for a much delayed but hard-hitting report on human rights in China.
“I used to tell them look if you ask me not to publish this then tomorrow, another big country will call me and say don’t publish this. And then another big country will come so then the only thing I can do is to go back home. Because I have to do my job. So there was lots of pressure, lots of criticism.”
Now, she feels the world has failed civilians in Gaza.
“You have people there that need a humanitarian corridor, so they can get food, medicines, water, electricity and I feel that the international community has been slow to respond. Slow and weak.”
And what about the Universal Declaration at 75?
“The Universal Declaration is still valid. Because it gives sort of a minimal, I would say, standard of how we can live together.”
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On Inside Geneva this week: part six of our series marking the 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Imogen Foulkes talks to Michelle Bachelet, who served as UN Human Rights Commissioner from 2018 to 2022. She was a young woman during Chile’s military dictatorship, and experienced human rights violations first hand.
“You needed to be as strong as possible, and not to fail and not to... how could I say confess things that could harm other people.”
When democracy returned to Chile, Bachelet served as her country’s president twice. Valuable experience, she believes, for later, persuading world leaders to respect human rights.
“I could put myself in the shoes of that person who was making those decisions, and tried to think which could be the arguments that would convince them to respect human rights. That it's not only the right thing to do but also the smart thing.”
She came under huge pressure for a much delayed but hard-hitting report on human rights in China.
“I used to tell them look if you ask me not to publish this then tomorrow, another big country will call me and say don’t publish this. And then another big country will come so then the only thing I can do is to go back home. Because I have to do my job. So there was lots of pressure, lots of criticism.”
Now, she feels the world has failed civilians in Gaza.
“You have people there that need a humanitarian corridor, so they can get food, medicines, water, electricity and I feel that the international community has been slow to respond. Slow and weak.”
And what about the Universal Declaration at 75?
“The Universal Declaration is still valid. Because it gives sort of a minimal, I would say, standard of how we can live together.”
Please listen and subscribe to our science podcast -- the Swiss Connection.
Get in touch!
Thank you for listening! If you like what we do, please leave a review or subscribe to our newsletter.
This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host, Imogen folks, and this is a Swiss info production. In today's programme.
Newsreader:Hundreds of prisoners were rounded up and taken to the National Stadium.
Michelle Bachelet:That you needed to be as strong as possible and not to fail and not to how could I say confess things that put harm out of you.
Speaker 4:That Michel Bachelet would be the number one choice in this election was never in doubt.
Michelle Bachelet:I haven't been president twice before being a commissioner, I could put myself in the shoes on that person who was making those decisions and tried to think which could be the arguments that would convince them that factual rights is not a real right thing to do. So it's not.
Newsreader:I am delighted that the General Assembly has confirmed the appointment of Miss Michel Bachelet as the new United Nations I-Commissioner for Human Rights.
Michelle Bachelet:I mean the Universal Declaration is still valid because it gives sort of the minimal standards how we can live together.
Imogen Foulkes:Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva. I'm Imogenfolks. In today's programme, we're returning to our special series marking the 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and our guest today is Michel Bachelet. She served as Human Rights Commissioner from 2018 until 2022. And before that, had devoted many years to serving her native Chile as a government minister and twice as its president. She joined us virtually from Santiago. The link is not always the best listener. We apologise for that, but what Miss Bachelet has to say is well worth your time, so stay tuned. I began, as always, by asking her about her early life and whether human rights had always been a focus for her.
Michelle Bachelet:Yes, even though maybe at that time people would have told me I might not call it human rights because probably I was not so aware about the concepts and the Universal Declaration and so on. But since I was a child I was always trying to, if I would say, ensure that people will receive the dignity that they deserve. That I felt always was the rights of women and the women to serve. I mean, when you are younger, you don't know much, so you said, oh, women are the same as men. Of course today. I don't think so. I think we might be very different, but of course we have, we should have, the same rights, the same opportunities.
Imogen Foulkes:As a young woman, though, Michel Bachelet, well very aware of the inequalities in Chilean society, didn't immediately focus on politics. Instead, a visit with her sick boyfriend to the doctor encouraged her to study medicine.
Michelle Bachelet:My boyfriend had a terrible toothache and I brought him to an emergency room in public health and we had to wait for hours and the condition was really bad and I said I'm going to study medicine because I want to change, I want to ensure that people have the health condition and the health rights. I mean, maybe I didn't use the word rights at that time, but it was the same concept, if I may say. And in my family they teach me the same. They teach me that every human being is equal, they serve equalities, they serve dignity, respect, and I also say that in my Milk bottle the word responsibility was there, so it was like a big man's responsibility in my milk bottle.
Speaker 4:I think September 11th 1973, the day of the military coup that overthrew Chile's then government.
Newsreader:After the widespread repression of the first few months, the dictatorship set up a network of 452 detention, torture and execution centres across the country.
Imogen Foulkes:But Michel Bachelet was growing up in Augusto Pinochet's Chile when he and the military seized power in 1973, immense repression began, with political opponents arrested, tortured and killed. For the young Bachelet, her opposition to the dictatorship limited her chances as a doctor. Later, it brought fear and loss to her entire family.
Michelle Bachelet:At that time, first of all, I was getting medicine and I tried to work in the public sector and they'd be to me Because I was against the dictatorship. And so I started working in the NGO and we worked with the children of the people who were in jail, people who were exiled, people who were relegated to some parts of the country, people who were imprisoned. So I was the pediatrician of all those children, working for the rights of the children, and the NGO was called Programme for Childhood. And Third, because we couldn't speak about the dictatorship at that time and the States of America, as we call it, and I was the pediatrician of those children and we worked all over the country to support families were either in prison or killed, executed or with enforced disappearments.
Michelle Bachelet:So, yes, human rights during the dictatorship was really, really nothing. I mean with the children. We achieved that the people who were in prison would get once a week a visit with the children. We got a special session for children. So it was very nice to see these big guys, all the playing with the children and bonding, if I may say, with them. And they have also the other perspective, with the white. But we went to. We were rarely happy because of the children were be so damaged by the dictatorship you talk about helping the children of people imprisoned.
Michelle Bachelet:You, your mother, were arrested, yourselves oh yeah, yeah, my father was in prison and he died because of torture. And I mean he was in prison because he was a constitutionalist, he was against the coup d'etat and the military itself. They took him and tortured him so he had a heart attack and he died because of the heart attack in the area jail. And then, of course, we were against the dictatorship, so we did political work, that underground of course. So once, once, and that there was a friend of my mom I, she and the torture gave the name of my mouth and then they went to his home and they took us, me and my mom, to be at the emergency. That's a, that's a torture center where people would disappear.
Michelle Bachelet:So I had the opportunity to meet with many other women, young women, who were from a different party, but people who were against the dictatorship. I mean what, what you did alone at that time when you were in those places that you were disappear, you're something. They know where you were. It was what for my jail? No, there were jails that buried that tissue. The thing is not to know what's going to happen, how long that is for the last, what will be? I mean, of course, they separated me from my man as well, so I didn't know what she was and yeah, but on the other hand, you felt that all both things were so also what was going on in the country, that you needed to be as strong as possible and not to fail and not to how could I say confess things that could harm other people.
Speaker 4:The current economic model is a legacy of the military dictatorship under Augusto Pinochet. The protests lasted for months. It was about reforming the health system, education, the rights of women, minorities and indigenous people. The entire system was in question, with calls to end the Pinochet era constitution.
Imogen Foulkes:You from that became political and government leader in Chile. They took some fun, but for many people, for me outside looking and this is the most incredible achievement to go from being arrested at risk of torture to become the leader of your country.
Michelle Bachelet:Well, yes, I think it's, because one thing that I think is very important in people's lives is resilience, and for some reason, my mom was very resilient and I am very resilient as well. So, of course, there was times in my life I had so much rage, so much anger, maybe hate sometimes as well, but then time was passing by. We wanted back democracy and I started saying, okay, we want democracy, we want sustainable democracy, we need to see how we can re-encounter all those children, particularly the armed forces, that for me were not strangers, because I have lived in military bases, et cetera, with my father, so they were no strangers, but they were behaving in a very terrible way. But I said to myself we need to develop again what we call a civic friendship. We don't need to say the same, we don't need to agree in the past, but we need to agree on this. And, on the other hand, at that time I never thought I would become a leader of any new minister, neither president.
Speaker 4:Center left candidate Michelle Bachelet has been re-elected as Chile's president in a landslide victory. Senators and ministers.
Newsreader:To appoint Miss Michelle Bachelet of Chile as United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. It is so decided.
Imogen Foulkes:You got those jobs. You served your country for many years. Some people say, ok, I've done my bit now, but you went on and took the job of UN Human Rights Commissioner. What was the thinking behind that? Did you want another challenge? Did you think you had unique experience?
Michelle Bachelet:Well, the thing is that at the beginning, when they asked me to apply, I thought no, I've done enough twice time. President of the Republic. Ministers, I mean my whole life, ministers. When I looked at the last time that I went to PTA meeting with my daughter my youngest daughter was like so many years ago, so many years. I was not even aware of my daughter. I said what was the last time, mom, when I was in fourth grade and she wasn't in university. So it was like I've been doing all this thing I need. I think I have to do it because I can help myself. When I feel that I can contribute and make something important and transform for a better possibility. I cannot help myself or say OK, ok.
Michelle Bachelet:So when Antonio Gutero is asking to apply, at the beginning I was saying to him look, my mom was old the truth is that, living in my family for a long time in a second place, but the situation was very difficult in the world. It was not as bad as it can get worse, but it was very difficult. So he told me please, michelle, please apply, because really I need you. And I asked. I talked to my mom. She was at that time like 90 years old and she said to me go ahead, go ahead, because this is very important. And so I met children. I sort of mentioned to them and I said, ok, well, so I went there. But to be honest, I knew the UN, that I knew the UN in New York, but I didn't know to watch the council. So I started meeting and one of the articles that really helped me is that it was the impossible job. But he, because he says because the head commissioner has to be the voice of the boss, rest, so you have to denounce situations. That needs to be known and try to ensure that governments do the right thing. But on the other hand, you need to support governments and you need to be trusted there so they do the right things. And on the other hand, in some cases it's not, it's not intentional, it's a case of lack of capacity, so you need to support them with capacity building, et cetera, et cetera. So it's a very conscious because if you're telling you are a bad guy, I thought bad government, because you are violating the rights of your people, but on the other hand, as then, I want to support you.
Michelle Bachelet:In that sense, I feel that the political experience is very useful for that, because you had to negotiate or to put yourself in the shoes of the other groups. I mean, having been minister, but also particularly being present twice before being a commissioner, I could put myself in the shoes of that person who was making those decisions and try to think which could be the arguments that were convinced to respect human rights is not a really the right thing to do, but also the smart thing. That is not only about talking about principles and values, because many times we don't convince politicians with that unless we show them that it's also the smart thing to do. And this is also a challenge, because with some people, whatever argument you use in the world, but also being a politician, it helped me in the past. It helped me understand that if the office had been doing with any country, any country in the world, certain strategy, that was not working. We need to rethink the strategy.
Michelle Bachelet:I didn't want to be the historian of human rights. I wanted to have a son. I wanted to think people's lives, because the historian is an interesting job, but not for me. That's not what I wanted to do.
Newsreader:Black Lives Matter yes, all lives matter, but right now we're focusing on Black Lives Matter. Two officers were caught pushing 75-year-old Martin Gagino to the ground so hard he laid bleeding.
Michelle Bachelet:Enough is enough, my justice my peace.
Imogen Foulkes:You clearly understood the challenges. You had some strategies. Was there a particular thing you thought? This is something I want to focus on. I know that you did highlight the legacy of colonialism and slavery. Was that something that you really had as a priority, To be honest?
Michelle Bachelet:not at the beginning. This came particularly after the murder of George Floyd, who were the boys of the families in Europe, in the US, canada and in the Latin America as well that had this police brutality just because they were after the sender, they were supposed to be suspicious of A, b, c or D. And also not only the police brutality but also the lack of, as I would say, empathy of the systems the police system, the judiciary with the families. The truth never came out, etc. And lack of justice.
Michelle Bachelet:But in that discussion, how we deal with this, before we said well, but we need to go further. We need to analyze why is this? What are the effects of the legacy of colonialism and slavery also lead to the situation of after the sender in many places in the world, of discrimination, marginalization, etc. Police brutality, sometimes even with people who were not white. There could be Asian in the case of Judge Floyd, the other guys who led, one Latino, asian, and they didn't do anything. So we decided to go backwards because we said we don't deal with this issue, we're not going to solve it. Will it have results? Do you think that they will take the calls for reparations seriously?
Michelle Bachelet:I don't know Now. The UN's human rights chief will be in China this week. Michelle Bachelet is the first person in the job to visit China in 17 years.
Newsreader:Bachelet has come under fire from human rights groups and Uighurs overseas.
Michelle Bachelet:She's due to go to Xinjiang, the remote region where Beijing is accused of systematic abuse of China's Uighur Muslim minority.
Imogen Foulkes:I'm going to have to ask you about China, because this was a kind of thing, an ongoing part of your time as human rights commissioner, and you did come under a lot of pressure and quite a lot of criticism. People were saying where's the report? Is the human rights office just sitting on it and doing nothing? In the end, this report came out very detailed, very hard hitting. I'm wondering now, though, how you coped with that pressure If you know you're actually working hard and that every time you open a newspaper or read an email there's some criticism. That can't be too easy.
Michelle Bachelet:Well, you know, pressures came from everywhere. Every time I had an interview with the European Union, the question would come and everything went. You'd come and said you know so, probably because I understand what politics is and what geopolitics is. I knew they were part of the job. I knew this would happen anyway, and I used to tell them look, if you ask me not to publish this, then tomorrow another big country will call me, said no, publish this, and then the other big country will come. So then the only thing I can do is to hold back on Because I have to do my job. I have to. If I commit to something, I will do it and I won't give it to my successor the task of doing it. I would.
Michelle Bachelet:It might take me long, because I needed to be serious, professional, to give the opportunities to everyone to give their arguments and their experiences, and then we needed to make something that we feel it is serious. So there was lots of pressure, lots of criticism, but you know what? There was this saying in the office when everybody, pretty sizes are not going back, it's when we want to be pretty sizes. You're doing it. I've tried to do something wrong, but if everybody thinks that, ok, you're trying to do your things. It will not be easy, but I think you need to do what you need.
Imogen Foulkes:It's interesting that this is something that journalists say to themselves as well. If both sides of an argument are criticising you, you're on the right track there. It was nice to share some laughter with Michelle Bachelet over the challenges of the job, but, as she frequently said over the course of our interview, there's not much to laugh about in our world right now. Her time in office saw the COVID-19 pandemic and Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
Newsreader:The airstrikes rolled on hour after hour. Palestinian armed groups and deterred kept up their own barrage of Israel Fleeing for their lives those living in the north of the Gaza Strip heading south.
Imogen Foulkes:Now, the renewed conflict in the Middle East fills her with concern and sadness.
Michelle Bachelet:Well, my heart is broken. My heart is broken. First of all, the massacred that Hamas did is terrible, but, on the other hand, even though Israel says that this is a war against Hamas and not Palestine, today it is listening to 1,017 children who have died because of the bombs. So the problem with all wars is, the civilians are the ones who died, and I think this is terrible because war exists, but there are wars that tend to be respected. You have people there that needs humanitarian corridors so they can get food, medicines, water, electricity, and I feel that the international community has been slow to respond, slow and weak. The response has been weak and people are suffering and my heart is broken.
Imogen Foulkes:So for my very last question, I wanted to know from Michelle Bachelet how she views the Universal Declaration of Human Rights now. Is it in its 75th year? Fit for purpose?
Michelle Bachelet:I mean the Universal Declaration is still valid because it gives sort of the minimal, if I would say, standards how we can live together, all the things that we learned after the first and second World War. But of course, many people feel that it's just a document, it doesn't make it a reality, neither in their own countries. But on the other hand, I feel that it's still really important. But of course, some people, for example, say, oh, there are new issues, we need to remake it. But they said no, please, this can be a $1 box, as it is as good in us, we can include it in whatever is needed New things.
Michelle Bachelet:For example, people from the LGTBI community says we need to be included and, as a look, it says all people, all persons, all everyone, so everyone with every diversity is included there. As one African judge said in one of the meetings, what for me is justice and what is for me justice and human rights is that a baby can have if it's cold, can be warm, if it's hungry, can have food. I mean, if you bring it to the real life, I think, as Eleanor Roswell said, that human rights they had to be in the village, in the streets, at the school, et cetera. Thank you.
Imogen Foulkes:Human rights in the village, in the street, in the schools, everywhere. A reminder there from Michelle Bachelet that that was Eleanor Roosevelt's vision and she was the guiding light of the Universal Declaration in 1948. That brings us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva. My thanks to Michelle Bachelet for her time and her wisdom here at Inside Geneva. We'd also like to know what you think. Does the Universal Declaration need changing to reflect new awareness of equality and identity, or is it all a waste of time, since so many don't seem to respect its values?
Imogen Foulkes:Tell us what you think by writing to us at Inside Geneva, at Swissinfoch, or even record us an audio message and we can try to respond in an upcoming episode. In the meantime, you can catch up on previous editions of Inside Geneva, from the situation for women in Afghanistan to human rights defenders in Russia, to debates about artificial intelligence or institutional racism in humanitarian agencies. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts. A reminder you've been listening to Inside Geneva from Swissinfo, the international public media company of Switzerland, available in many languages as well as English. Check out our other content at wwwswissinfoch. I'm Imogen Folks. Thanks again for listening and do join us again next time on Inside Geneva.