This week Inside Geneva sits down for the last in our series of exclusive interviews with UN human rights commissioners.
Volker Türk has a copy of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that he was given at school more than 40 years ago. Growing up in his native Austria, he focused his mind on human rights.
"In light of the history of my own country, Holocaust, its own atrocities committed by Austrians during the Second World War, it was very formative for me to actually really say OK what has to happen in this world so that we come to this never again attitude," he told host Imogen Foulkes.
Today, there are 55 conflicts worldwide – not the best atmosphere to celebrate the 75th anniversary of the universal declaration. But Volker Türk has a compelling analogy of why it is still important.
"We actually have traffic regulations, and they exist because otherwise people would get killed. That's the same on the human rights front, and that's why the Universal Declaration of human rights is so important. Yes there are people who are violating traffic regulations, as there are people who violate human rights law, sometimes egregiously, as we see now. It doesn't mean that this takes away the fundamental centrality of the norms."
He also believes that if warring parties could really see the suffering they cause each other, peace might be easier to achieve.
"I was at the border to Gaza in Rafah, on north Sinai. I met Palestinian children, who had injuries that I have rarely seen in my life. Spine injuries, some of them couldn't even talk, because they were in such deep trauma and shock. I also met families of hostages, Israeli hostages and I saw their pain, and I can see that there is immense suffering out there and that suffering is created from humans to humans."
Is there anything to celebrate on this 75th anniversary? Perhaps not, but we can learn.
"We cannot afford just to stay in the present. We need to learn from our crisis today to make it better in the future, and I hope that if there's one single message that comes across: that the centrality of human rights has to be much more pronounced than ever before."
Join host Imogen Foulkes on the Inside Geneva to listen to the full episode.
Please listen and subscribe to our science podcast -- the Swiss Connection.
Get in touch!
Thank you for listening! If you like what we do, please leave a review or subscribe to our newsletter.
This week Inside Geneva sits down for the last in our series of exclusive interviews with UN human rights commissioners.
Volker Türk has a copy of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that he was given at school more than 40 years ago. Growing up in his native Austria, he focused his mind on human rights.
"In light of the history of my own country, Holocaust, its own atrocities committed by Austrians during the Second World War, it was very formative for me to actually really say OK what has to happen in this world so that we come to this never again attitude," he told host Imogen Foulkes.
Today, there are 55 conflicts worldwide – not the best atmosphere to celebrate the 75th anniversary of the universal declaration. But Volker Türk has a compelling analogy of why it is still important.
"We actually have traffic regulations, and they exist because otherwise people would get killed. That's the same on the human rights front, and that's why the Universal Declaration of human rights is so important. Yes there are people who are violating traffic regulations, as there are people who violate human rights law, sometimes egregiously, as we see now. It doesn't mean that this takes away the fundamental centrality of the norms."
He also believes that if warring parties could really see the suffering they cause each other, peace might be easier to achieve.
"I was at the border to Gaza in Rafah, on north Sinai. I met Palestinian children, who had injuries that I have rarely seen in my life. Spine injuries, some of them couldn't even talk, because they were in such deep trauma and shock. I also met families of hostages, Israeli hostages and I saw their pain, and I can see that there is immense suffering out there and that suffering is created from humans to humans."
Is there anything to celebrate on this 75th anniversary? Perhaps not, but we can learn.
"We cannot afford just to stay in the present. We need to learn from our crisis today to make it better in the future, and I hope that if there's one single message that comes across: that the centrality of human rights has to be much more pronounced than ever before."
Join host Imogen Foulkes on the Inside Geneva to listen to the full episode.
Please listen and subscribe to our science podcast -- the Swiss Connection.
Get in touch!
Thank you for listening! If you like what we do, please leave a review or subscribe to our newsletter.
This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host, Imogenfolks, and this is a Swiss info production In today's programme.
Speaker 2:In light of the history of my own country Holocaust, its own atrocities that was committed by Austrians during the Second World War it was very formative for me to actually really say, okay, what has to happen in this world so that we come to this never again? Fleeing for their lives those living in the north of the Gaza Strip heading south 1.1 million people. I was at the border to Gaza, in Rafa. I met Palestinian children who had injuries that I have rarely seen in my life. I also met families of hostages, israeli hostages and I saw their pain and I can see that there is immense suffering out there and that suffering is created from humans to humans. They breached the main gate to Kibbutz Sufa and began searching for civilians to kill or take hostage.
Speaker 2:My own colleagues in Gaza Strip have been dying. I mean, the other colleagues were killed. I have my own staff who are victims now in this situation. So it's not that the UN is not doing anything, but actually we are there. We would be able to do so much more if the conditions allowed it to be done.
Speaker 1:Gaza is now cut off from all essential services, including electricity, water and food.
Speaker 2:We cannot afford that human rights becomes the collateral damage of geopolitics or of any of the crises that we see. I mean we have 55 conflicts at the moment, but a quarter of humanity lives in violent, fragile conflict areas. I want to make the comparison with traffic, because we actually have traffic regulations, because otherwise people would get killed. That's the same on the human rights front and that's why the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is so important.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva. I'm Imogen Folks and today I'm on my way, on a cold and blustery day in Geneva, to meet our final guest in our special Human Rights series. We're going to talk to Falker Twerk, the current UN Human Rights Commissioner, in his office in Geneva's elegant Palais Wilson, but not at all in awe of all the diplomatic pomp around the UN's grand Geneva headquarters. What Mr Twerk wanted to show me first was his own fraying copy of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, given to him at high school in Austria more than 40 years ago.
Speaker 2:That's really what I got at the time, you see.
Speaker 1:As a schoolboy. Yes.
Speaker 2:So it is very bad.
Speaker 1:They should give them to school kids now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it was one of these, you know. I mean, as you can see, it's very.
Speaker 1:But you kept it all this time Fraying with age, and that's why we're beginning our interview with his childhood, where his dedication to human rights began. Well, thank you very much for taking the time. My first question is about your background, your childhood. I've asked every former High Commissioner this Are there things you can remember from your childhood, growing up, that caused an interest in human rights and upholding human rights?
Speaker 2:Yes, I was born 20 years after the end of the Second World War in Austria, in Linz, which is about 40 kilometers. At the time it was 40 kilometers from the Iron Curtain. In fact, I've just been to Prague and it was very emotional for me because, of course, when you grow up during the Cold War, in light of the history of my own country Holocaust, its own atrocities that was committed by Austrians during the Second World War it was very formative for me to actually really say, okay, what has to happen in this world so that we come to this never again attitude, this never again? The history of my country, the fact that we were on the edge of the Iron Curtain, were very, very important parts of my upbringing. The nuclear threat as well. I remember as a child I was always very worried. I was always happy when the clouds were up there because I thought that there wouldn't be anything. It was very strange because you were in this environment of threats as well, different threats than today. Nonetheless, as a child I could remember the fear about this.
Speaker 2:I always wanted to fight for peace. I was very early on interested in other cultures in other parts of the world and in human rights. It started actually, to be honest, when I was 15-year-old. During my English classes, the professor gave us a copy of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which I still keep up to this day. I will show you a crumpled sort of copy of it which I still have, because it inspired me about people in other parts of the world who weren't as entitled as I was growing up in Austria. It influenced my fight against apartheid decolonisation. Then, very early when I started law, getting to know refugees and knowing what type of problems they face in my country and wanting to fight for that.
Speaker 1:If we fast forward to taking on a job of you and Human Rights Commissioner we know that you were with you and refugees I think I even interviewed you when you were there but this job it's not easy. Every single person I've interviewed Zaid Louise Arbor, mary Robinson they all said they were really hesitated when they were offered the job. What about you?
Speaker 2:Look, I've worked for UNITIA for almost 30 years.
Speaker 2:I always saw the end result of human rights failures meaning people fleeing because of conflict, because of violence, because of very serious human rights violations. I always thought I would like to, for once, work on the other side, meaning how can we do more on the prevention side, how can we use human rights as a solution, how can we make sure that the world understands that human rights has to be at the centre of everything that we do? So I've hesitated as well whether I should apply or not, but in the end, it was the natural progression of my whole life and I came in at a very difficult moment. I have to say. It's probably the most tense geopolitical moment, even a year ago. It's become more tense ever since.
Speaker 1:Well, that brings me neatly to my next question, because you're a year into the job and it's like problems to the left and problems to the right. How are you finding it?
Speaker 2:It's very tough, I won't hide that from you. But at the same time, it's precisely when we know that there are times of crisis that we have to go back to the compass that human rights offers, to the wisdom that human rights offers, and it's almost counterintuitively to say we need more of it rather than less. Because I also hear the cynicism, I hear the talk about double standards, I hear all these. I say this has become hollow. Well, frankly, they have always been human rights failures and it's very important to reflect on them, but both on the achievement and on the failures, and to learn from them. So it's, at the same time, the most opportune time to come back to the basics, to the fundamentals, to the compass that human rights represents.
Speaker 1:Well, you've been trying to remind people about the basics, the fundamentals I mean. If we talk specifically about the Middle East, this is very, very difficult. You went to the region. You said war crimes are being committed both sides. Usually a human rights commissioner says this could constitute a war crime. That's not what you said. You said these are.
Speaker 2:Look, I was at the border. I was at the border to Gaza, in Rafa, on North Sinai. I met I just met Palestinian children who had injuries that I have rarely seen in my life Spine injuries. Some of them couldn't even talk because they were so in such deep trauma and shock. I also met hostages I mean families of hostages, israeli hostages and I saw their pain and I can see that there is immense suffering out there and that suffering is created from humans to humans. And I also see that some of the suffering is not seen by the other side.
Speaker 2:So it is really important that each and everyone understands that the suffering is happening on all sides and that we must do something about it, and international law is the answer to it. And when it comes to, for example, the blockade and now the siege, if you look at international law, it's very clear. You should never collectively punish people when you are in this type of situations, and that's what has happened. Of course, now humanitarian assistance comes in, but it's still inadequate and we need much more of it, and it should not have happened in the past. There should not have been this denial of humanitarian assistance at the start.
Speaker 1:But what can the UN do about it? I mean Israel didn't even invite you into Israel when you went to the Middle East. I mean the UN. It doesn't seem very popular, certainly with Israel at the moment.
Speaker 2:Well, I still haven't given up. I was able to go to Egypt, I was able to go to the border, I was able to go to Jordan. I have asked to go to Israel. I will keep asking for it and I hope that at some stage they will see it in their interest that I come and that also I can deploy a team to Israel and again to Gaza and the West Bank, because we have only got national staff there at the moment.
Speaker 1:What would you like to happen immediately? This truth is due to come to an end. There has been talk that the war will resume with all its ferocity when it finishes.
Speaker 2:Well, I hope very much that this pause brings back sense to people and that they realize that violence and military solutions are not going to achieve the much needed political solution that actually leads to a peaceful future for both Israelis and Palestinians. There's no way out and it requires negotiations. It requires those who have influence over both Hamas and Israel to exercise that influence and to bring them back to, frankly, a negotiating table that brings an end to this violence, that actually makes sure that there is an envisioned future for both, and, of course, it will have to involve the Palestinian authorities and the state of Palestine. That's absolutely clear. But that's what we need. We don't need more violence, we don't need more conflict. We actually need something that brings them all together and finds a solution to it.
Speaker 1:Do you think the UN can really play a significant role? I mean, go look at how many different resolutions and reports and etc. Lots of people around the world are saying, oh no, this again it's just intractable.
Speaker 2:Well, I think we can never give up on anything, including not on the most intractable, what now appears to be the most intractable situation. I do think that everyone knows that we cannot go back to before, so there needs to be a different way of dealing with this situation, and I hope that it's taken more seriously. I also hope that what we have been for years saying about the human rights impact of this situation in the occupied Palestinian territory will finally be heard, and that's really the biggest message. Human rights have to be taken much more seriously. They cannot just be relegated to an anodyne discussion in the Human Rights Council. They actually have to be. They have to really lead to action by member states, not just by us, because, frankly, my own colleagues in Gaza Strip have been dying. I mean, the other colleagues were killed. I have my own staff who are victims now in this situation. So it's not that the UN is not doing anything, but actually we are there. We would be able to do so much more if the conditions allowed it to be done.
Speaker 1:So I'm wondering at the beginning, there would be a lot of questions about the Middle East in this interview, but there are other things I'd quite like to ask you about. I was very interested that you went to Haiti. This is a place where, particularly this last year, has been deteriorating. You really wanted to shine a light on that. Are you concerned that some of these situations are just completely neglected?
Speaker 2:I am concerned about the neglect of these situations Just now. Think of Sudan before I come to Ihaidi, but think of Sudan. It was actually the first country I visited, because I also thought that it was important to show solidarity with a human rights revolution that happened in 2019, mostly by women and young people. They overthrew 30 years of dictatorship, so I thought it was important for me to be there and I was actually hopeful then, which was about a year ago. Of course, the situation has radically changed. Now we have an ongoing warfare which is horrible, which no one really talks about, and it's still important that the world puts the spotlight on it. The same I felt about Ihaidi Report after report after report about at the time when I went, 60% of the urban area of Port-au-Prince, of the capital, was basically controlled by gangs Sexual violence, rampant People don't do kidnapping, rampant People don't know how to basically get on with their lives, and now it's even spreading. I mean, we have now a situation where it's spreading into other parts of Ihaidi At least.
Speaker 2:I think my mission helped to put more of a spotlight on the situation. It triggered action as well within the international community. I got a lot of phone calls from different governments after I had gone, and I'm glad that the Security Council again repeated you know, know the arms embargo, the sanctions regime, but also the establishment of a multinational security force that would act in support of the Haitian police. And we got the Council, the Human Rights Council also, to adopt an important resolution with the creation of an independent expert and with more focus on the human rights situation in the country. But I hope that it's not just words, but that action will follow.
Speaker 1:So you say you hope. I'm kind of wondering, listening to you, if you don't sometimes vote despair. You know you talked about Sudan and women, young people really yearning for a better future, haiti as well and then the warlords come in and they just mess it all up and people sell them weapons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, we have seen. I mean it's between hope and despair, but I mean, you know, we cannot be pessimists. We can't be optimists, but we need to be determined and continue our work. That's extremely important because we do see also successes. I mean, it's not I would only despair if we didn't see successes.
Speaker 2:I mean, I have seen in my own engagement in a number of countries. We had people being released from prisons, for example. We have seen changes in legislation. We have seen also more realization that some of the pushbacks that we saw on gender issues are actually reversed. I mean we always focus on the negative and the doom and the gloom, but there are also success stories. We don't talk enough about them, and it's good to do that as well. So, yes, I mean I think we can only constantly make sure that we don't give up and persevere.
Speaker 1:So, given the primary reason for this interview is this 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, a copy you have in your desk, you told me I was reading again a rather pessimistic opinion piece where the writer said that, particularly around the Middle East, what we're seeing is our post-war human rights architecture collapse in front of our eyes. You don't see that?
Speaker 2:We cannot afford to see that. We cannot afford that human rights becomes the collateral damage of geopolitics or of any of the crises that we see. We still have 55 conflicts at the moment, one of the highest numbers since the end of the Second World War. About a quarter of humanity lives in violent, fragile conflict areas, which is horrifying.
Speaker 2:We have the traffic I want to make the comparison with traffic, because we actually have traffic regulations and they exist because otherwise people would get killed. That's the same on the human rights front and that's why the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is so important. There are people who are violating traffic regulations, as there are people who violate human rights law, sometimes egregiously, as we see now. It doesn't mean that this takes away the fundamental centrality of the norms, because if we didn't have the norms, we wouldn't even know what to measure it against and we wouldn't be able to hold people to account as well. So I think it's important to remember that, and I would see them more as temporary setbacks, terrible setbacks, but we cannot afford to lose the wisdom that comes from human rights norms.
Speaker 1:What and how, then, should we celebrate this 75th anniversary?
Speaker 2:We actually commemorate the 75th anniversary and it's really important that societies, member states, at different levels, everyone who is part of the ecosystem, reflects on the achievements, the successes, but also the failures, and learns from them. We need to look also into the future. We cannot afford just to stay in the present. We need to learn from our crisis today to make it better in the future, and I hope that if there is one single message that comes across that the centrality of human rights has to be much more pronounced than ever before.
Speaker 1:Hi Commissioner, thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:I hope we haven't taken up too much of it.
Speaker 1:Oh no we finished right on the door to our house. My God, how did that happen? I didn't plan it. And that brings us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva. Huge thanks to Falker Twerk for taking time out of his very busy schedule to share his thoughts with us here at Inside Geneva. We'd also like to know what you think. Does the Universal Declaration need changing to reflect new awareness of equality and identity, or is it all a waste of time, since so many don't seem to respect its values? Tell us what you think by writing to us at Inside Geneva, at Swissinfoch, or even record us an audio message, and we can try to respond in an upcoming episode.
Speaker 1:In the meantime, you can catch up on previous editions of Inside Geneva, from the situation of women in Afghanistan to human rights defenders in Russia, to debates about artificial intelligence or institutional racism in humanitarian agencies. Next time on Inside Geneva, we'll be coming back to human rights again with highlights from all our exclusive interviews with former human rights chiefs. Find out about the one whose friends told her not to take the job, or the one who felt she was screaming in the wilderness, and the one who warned about the rise of dangerous demagogues in Europe and the United States. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts. A reminder you've been listening to Inside Geneva from Swissinfo, the international public media company of Switzerland, available in many languages as well as English. Check out our other content at wwwswissinfoch. I'm Imogen Folks. Thanks again for listening and do join us again next time on Inside Geneva.