In the last Inside Geneva of 2023, UN correspondents look back at the year..and what a year it’s been.
Emma Farge, Reuters: ‘This year has felt like lurching from one catastrophe to another.’
Earthquakes, climate change, or war –the UN is always expected to step in.
Nick Cumming-Bruce, contributor, New York Times: ‘This is a multilateral system that is absolutely falling apart under the strain of all the extreme events it’s having to deal with.’
Aid agencies have struggled to cope.
Imogen Foulkes, host, Inside Geneva: ‘You feel like they’re being squeezed and squeezed and squeezed between the warring parties, and the Security Council which will just never agree.’
And now, war, again, in the middle east.
Dorian Burkhalter, Swissinfo: ‘The UN has never lost that many humanitarian workers, and just seeing their helplessness you can really tell that they’ve lost their protection, and they’re totally desperate.’
Emma Farge: ‘It’s been personal for everyone, and it;s been difficult for journalists to navigate this information war and to really navigate it with your composure.’
What will 2024 bring?
Nick Cumming-Bruce: ‘We still have potentially months of conflict, and we then have the whole issue of post conflict. Well, 2024 is really going to be where we see where the rubber hits the road on that one.’
Please listen and subscribe to our science podcast -- the Swiss Connection.
Get in touch!
Thank you for listening! If you like what we do, please leave a review or subscribe to our newsletter.
In the last Inside Geneva of 2023, UN correspondents look back at the year..and what a year it’s been.
Emma Farge, Reuters: ‘This year has felt like lurching from one catastrophe to another.’
Earthquakes, climate change, or war –the UN is always expected to step in.
Nick Cumming-Bruce, contributor, New York Times: ‘This is a multilateral system that is absolutely falling apart under the strain of all the extreme events it’s having to deal with.’
Aid agencies have struggled to cope.
Imogen Foulkes, host, Inside Geneva: ‘You feel like they’re being squeezed and squeezed and squeezed between the warring parties, and the Security Council which will just never agree.’
And now, war, again, in the middle east.
Dorian Burkhalter, Swissinfo: ‘The UN has never lost that many humanitarian workers, and just seeing their helplessness you can really tell that they’ve lost their protection, and they’re totally desperate.’
Emma Farge: ‘It’s been personal for everyone, and it;s been difficult for journalists to navigate this information war and to really navigate it with your composure.’
What will 2024 bring?
Nick Cumming-Bruce: ‘We still have potentially months of conflict, and we then have the whole issue of post conflict. Well, 2024 is really going to be where we see where the rubber hits the road on that one.’
Please listen and subscribe to our science podcast -- the Swiss Connection.
Get in touch!
Thank you for listening! If you like what we do, please leave a review or subscribe to our newsletter.
This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host, Imogenfolks, and this is a Swiss info production In today's programme.
Speaker 3:This year has felt like lurching from one catastrophe to another.
Speaker 1:We're following breaking news in Sudan. We're fighting as erupted between a paramilitary force and the country's army.
Speaker 2:This is a multilateral system that is absolutely falling apart under the strain of all the extreme events it's having to deal with.
Speaker 3:Most are women and children.
Speaker 4:Some have been here for hours, others weeks.
Speaker 1:You feel like they're being squeezed and squeezed, and squeezed between the warring parties and the security council, that they will never agree.
Speaker 4:They're living for their lives, those living in the north of the Gaza Strip heading south. Un has never lost that many humanitarian workers and just seeing their helplessness you can really tell that they've lost their protection and they're totally desperate.
Speaker 2:They breached the main gate to Kabut Sufa and began searching for civilians to kill or take hostage.
Speaker 3:It's been personal for everyone and it's been difficult for journalists to really navigate this information war and to navigate it with your composure In.
Speaker 1:Gaza. Water, fuel and medicines are running out, says the UN and there's not enough food.
Speaker 2:We still have potentially months of conflict, and we then have the whole issue of post-conflict. Well, 2024 is going to really see where the rubber hits the road on that one.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva. And it's that time of year Again. It's time for our journalists' round table, where we're going to look back at 2023 and dare to have a little peek forward at 2024, a risky business, because I think this time last year there are certain things that have happened over the last 12 months that we didn't couldn't predict In the beginning of the year. I have Nick Cumming Bruce, who writes for the New York Times, emma Larch for Reuters and Arundh Doriand Borkhelter for SwissInfo. I'm going to start by just asking each of you, before we go into all the events, things we didn't predict that happened this year, could you pick one kind of story, standout story that has really struck you that will stay with you, emma?
Speaker 3:I think I may be starting with you. Sure, this year has felt like lurching from one catastrophe to another. We began the year with Pakistan, I think. Floods through to Sudan, through to Morocco, through to Libya anyway.
Speaker 3:But I kind of measure my journalistic life in pre-Hamas Israel conflict and post and I've got to say, what has been happening with that conflict has stood out for me and it's pretty much engulfed me, and it's been a very emotional story in a way that I haven't experienced, at least since I've been in Geneva.
Speaker 3:Certain moments I found it very difficult to actually keep my composure. One of those moments was when I saw the statement from Hamas saying that the Bebes family who had been taken hostage in Gaza had been killed. It's still not verified, but I'd interviewed family members two weeks before in Geneva who were pleading for access to them, and that was a blow to the stomach, and I'm not the only one. You look at these organizations. A lot of people have lost staff there. And a moment stood out for me when Ravina Shem Dassini, the spokesperson for the UN rights office, started almost breaking down on the podium describing how staff in Gaza were having to choose between sleeping in their homes and potentially being crushed to death and sleeping in the open and risking death from shrapnel in the conflict. So it's been personal for everyone and it's been difficult for journalists to really navigate this information war and to navigate it with your composure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's really true. I found that myself. I mean, I've been working out of Geneva for a long time and a lot of people, especially some of my colleagues in London, say, oh, that's a bit of a cushy number, geneva. But actually we're reading and listening horror on a regular basis and I, like you, this one has hit me very deeply. It's very hard to actually keep going back to it, keep saying we should look at this, tell my editors, we should look at this angle. Anyway, we will return a little bit, I think, to Gaza. I'm sure we will, but I will ask you, dorian, over the last 12 months you have a standout story.
Speaker 4:Well, I mean I'm afraid I'll have to talk about Gaza as well, because I mean I think it is a standout story, even though it isn't just one story, but I think it's. I haven't been here a very long time but last year we were hearing about terrible things in Ukraine as well and hearing it from the humanitarian agencies here in Geneva. But I think maybe there was a bit more of a distance, I guess, between the things they were telling us and I mean they were removed, I guess a bit more from the civilian suffering of course. But here we know DUN, I think, has never lost that many humanitarian workers in. So UN agencies have really been part of this conflict, I guess more than, for example, last year with the war in Ukraine, and I guess just seeing their helplessness is really a striking thing and I mean it's just you can really tell that they've lost their protection and they're totally desperate and it's sad.
Speaker 1:And it's, yeah, and it's. They're still in Syria, they're still in Afghanistan, they're still in Yemen. Now they're trying in Gaza, Israel, Sudan, and you feel like they're being squeezed and squeezed and squeezed between the warring parties and the Security Council that they will never agree. Nick, have you got a cheery story?
Speaker 2:A cheery story, no, Surprise, but I guess I mean, yes, gaza obviously is tough for everybody, but it's been a year where we went from sort of Ukraine.
Speaker 2:We had the Turkish and Syrian earthquakes as well as then the civil war in Sudan, and we still have this sort of persistent conflict in Ethiopia and all the revelations about appalling atrocities that continue in Ethiopia despite the so-called end of the Tigray civil war.
Speaker 2:But I guess if I was to pick a story, I would shift from this sort of ecosystem of atrocities to accountability upbeat. And we had this strange trial in Switzerland of this Belarusian former soldier, yuri Hariski, who is part of a hit squad that took down three opposition leaders at a critical stage in, essentially, the consolidation of Lukashenko's extremely brutal authoritarian rule and this was a critical stage in that and he went on trial and it was really an eye-opening case which ended up with him not being convicted that there is an appeal still to come. So that case hasn't gone away and it was interesting because it was also kind of evidence of how universal jurisdiction cases are advancing in Europe. And so to all these people who are out there committing these atrocities, little Yuri Hariski, 44-year-old former hitman, is perhaps a case that they might want to pay attention to, and there are other cases coming. I mean, we have also this year the appeal court upheld a conviction against this Liberian warlord.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:That was seen as quite a precedent setting, which was a very significant case, and he was convicted. He was originally charged and convicted of war crimes. On appeal the federal court upgraded the charges to crimes against humanity and he was convicted of that. He's gone away for 20 years and we will be having in January a case against this former Gambian ministry of Ontario who's been charged with crimes against humanity and that's the highest ranking individual state government individual ever tried on the universal jurisdiction in Europe. Very interesting case, so something to look forward to there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is going to be interesting and it is when you think of all the different times that we here in Geneva we report on the Human Rights Council and all of these different groups who have seen firsthand violations. They invest their hope in the Human Rights Council and now maybe universal jurisdiction is maybe bringing some hope that if you come and you bring your evidence, eventually you will get some justice which before 10 years ago we were not having.
Speaker 2:Cases like this at all. No, we weren't. And it's a reminder also that you know, at a time when there are all these question marks about what the ICC can and will do, that there are other avenues of justice at our developing that can take people for people in prison.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Human Rights defenders are becoming increasingly skilled at making use of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is actually quite heartening to see, I think. So I'm going to tell you my standout story of the year, which unfortunately does go back to Israel, gaza, somewhat. But it's a wider reason that it stood out for me, and that's because I went and did a feature, quite an in-depth feature, about what the International Committee of the Red Cross does with hostages, in this case Gaza, how it works, tracing back to their work with prisoners of war. And the reason I did it was because there seemed to be a lot of a kind of way of saying it would be misunderstandings but eventually misinformation. And as I was writing this story, I realized I did something very similar this time last year, but about Ukraine, and the reason was that the ICRC, which is the Guardian of the Geneva Conventions, impartial, neutral, very Tight Lipped, was getting vilified on social media, first in Ukraine and then Israel, gaza, israel, Gaza in particular.
Speaker 1:Why haven't you visited them? You're just an Uber driver and I was trying to explain to one or two people skeptical or they should have done more. You know, you imagine, if you don't have permission also, actually they didn't know where the hostages were. But if you don't have permission to visit these hostages, you drive in, you try to find them, possibly, the idea follows you and everybody gets killed. This is the kind of framework in which they're working and it seemed a bit sad to me that in the end a hundred hostages did get out, and the only as far as I can see. You guys can can disagree, but I was thinking is there another organization in the world that could drive into place like that Unarmed and bring them back safely?
Speaker 3:They have come under fire, though, in the conflict, so they haven't been completely immune. But I think you're right. I think they are the only organization that At least I can think of, that can do that job. Yeah, who else could could drive into Gaza like that with and hope to be safe?
Speaker 2:and they did also in Yemen, and I mean the. Yes and all the people.
Speaker 1:They've done it recently in Sudan, I think as well, probably. Yeah, I mean, I was. What I was asking myself was, as we see, the world, increasingly wealthy countries were kind of getting increasingly tribal, and there's a lot of stuff on social media which people believe without much actual proof. Are we risking, with all of these not just the ICRC, but a lot of the UN as well throwing the baby out with the bathwater of doubting all the time these fundamental principles? I mean, why do we think there's was so much criticism directed at the ICRC that they had failed, as they said, to visit hostages? Where is that coming from?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's coming just from sheer frustration on the part of families of victims, which is, you know, in some ways extremely understandable. But it's also extremely regrettable that they demonize the institution that may be able to help them, because ultimately, those institutions, or the ICRC and to a certain extent also the UN, are entirely dependent on governments that they're trying to engage with. And if you know the.
Speaker 2:ICRC unable to get into All in. If you're to identify what happened in that particular instance, where a large number of people got blown up in very questionable circumstances, it's not the failure of the ICRC and similarly you cannot expect the ICRC they don't have a stick to wheel to beat Hamas over the head and say take us to the hostages. It's a situation entirely in the gift of Hamas.
Speaker 1:No, I mean they. They work with the. We could at one point be trying to visit you. That's their only stick is to say you've got a brother maybe banged up in Israel. We can visit him, let us visit the hostages. And that is what they do do, but you know, it doesn't always work. I was wondering during our last few because we've been working almost a bit together on the universal declaration of human rights and 75 years and it's a bit linked to the we have the Geneva conventions, their fundamental core principles, so theoretically is the universal declaration, and yet all of these things seem weaker. People have doubts or they don't understand how they're supposed to work or even what their own responsibility is to uphold them. I'm just wondering whether, as we get further and further away from that point, it's easier to doubt these things or say that they're not fit for the 21st century.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, as time passes it becomes easier to question things because we can just say they're so ancient or are they still relevant today? But I think, and I mean we understand why these principles are being challenged as well. It's, of course, to suit the interests of people that criticize them. So, for example, authoritarian governments aren't going to be too happy with all human rights being equal.
Speaker 1:And a bit of a nuisance, aren't they?
Speaker 4:They are a bit of a nuisance, but I think also, it's probably fair to say a lot of it has been shaped by the West, I mean this post war architecture, so it's been questioned by other countries. But then I think it's also up to Western countries to really uphold these principles. And here I think we've seen I mean it's true a lot of double standards, countries not following through what they preach, and I guess that's part of the problem.
Speaker 3:But what is the alternative? Because that happened. All of these institutions, all of these rules were created at a moment of collective reckoning with the world that we simply can't reproduce. There will never be unity, especially in this era of I'm going to use the P word polarization. You're never going to be able to rewrite them in a way and get everyone on board. So that's what we've got. But I think next year will be interesting because there will be an attempt and Geneva will be part of that to rewrite some rules at least, and that's in the world of technology and health. And you could argue that after the pandemic, this is a collective moment where we could actually rewrite some of the health rules. So that's going to be a really interesting one for next year to see whether countries can rally around. I don't know what, what you guys are hearing, but the diplomats I'm speaking to aren't the pandemic treaty.
Speaker 3:You're talking optimistic Exactly Because we come back to sovereignty and the governments do not want to commit themselves to.
Speaker 2:You know independent scrutiny, which is at the heart of a lot of the international rise around. You know the origins of the pandemic and we still seem to be stuck in that. But I agree it's going to be interesting to see how that pans out in the coming year and, of course, in 2024, gaza will be with us and it will come back to the Human Rights Council. The Commission of Inquiry will be delivering their first report to the Human Rights Council in June. Their first formal report will be in June and that will be a reference point on the assessment of how the conduct of hostilities by both sides in this war.
Speaker 1:That's not going to make very pretty reading, I don't think.
Speaker 2:I don't think so.
Speaker 1:Coming back to you talked about the lack of optimism you have about the pandemic treaty, and again we're at this. You know, if you can't unite after a pandemic that disrupted every single life on this planet, we got the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and additional protocols, the Geneva Conventions, because of the Second World War, but we can't unite around this. And yet I have heard hopeful voices and coming back to Gaza saying that this cataclysm in Israel, gaza, might force big powers in the Arab world or in the United States to put their eye back on the ball. Anybody got any optimism about that.
Speaker 3:I'm not feeling too optimistic personally. In fact, analysts are saying that as Gaza starts to slip down the news agenda, then demand for accountability might also slip down the agenda. I'm not trying to be negative, but that is one scenario. I don't know if you're feeling it, but I can start to feel it slipping.
Speaker 1:People are exhausted. I have so many friends who say to me now I'm just not watching the news anymore, which concerns me, because when you watch the news, all of these violent events have a context and if people are never watching the news or not paying any attention to their history, we'll never get a solution. People don't even know where to begin. You're nodding, Dorian?
Speaker 4:I mean, for example, if you're talking about, are people getting informed? I mean, I think this is also a good question for younger people. I'm not so sure. I mean, I guess social media is changing things a lot and it's just harder and harder to get good information. It's easier to just keep looking at the same thing and then you're just going into a hole where you're just never looking at anything else, and so I think it's also up to the media to be able to explain these things to younger people.
Speaker 2:We try. About you, Nick I think one of the things I find a bit depressing, apart from the sheer horror of everything that was happening, was the number of official Israeli voices invoking Britain's bombing of Dresden as a kind of parallel that somehow justified the bombardment of Gaza. And the whole point of international humanitarian law and the rules of war that have been developed since is to avoid us going back to that yeah.
Speaker 1:No more Dresden, no more Tokyo, no more.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's yeah we need to see a greater sort of recommitment to these principles, and I think 2024 is going to be a very interesting test of that, and it may slip down the news at the end of it, but we still have potentially months of conflict, and we then have the whole issue of post-conflict All this talk about the two-state solution and the firm commitments that we've had from the United States, from the UK and all the European governments saying two-state solution. We've now got to do something about it. Well, 2024 is going to really see where the rubber heads are owed on that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but half of them are going to be focused on their own election campaigns. Indeed the US and the United Kingdom, and I was wondering again about that. We're talking about social media. Okay, elections in the US and UK are not entirely Geneva's business, but they will be the UN's business what happens in these countries? I'm wondering whether this is the first year we're going to see real serious manipulation AI in election campaigns. I think it's already happening isn't it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 1:Dorian.
Speaker 4:I mean I'm wondering too, is it going to be? I mean, certainly it's going to be even more dangerous, I guess, than if we think about the US presidencies. It's going to be even more than dangerous than in 2020. We've all seen, I think, this year the progress of AI with chat, gpt.
Speaker 2:I mean we can all Worry about that for sure one result in that American election could eclipse an awful lot of what we're talking about.
Speaker 1:I think it could eclipse virtually everything. It's a long time till November. I mean, let's enjoy ourselves till then.
Speaker 3:And how are we going to regulate AI? I mean that's a big question for UN. I mean the UN wants a piece of it, but everyone will say they're behind the curve and actually the agencies are kind of fighting amongst themselves as far as I can see, it's a surprise prize.
Speaker 1:I mean they do that. It's unfortunate. It's the secret of the United Nations. At these, different, very well-meaning agencies Sometimes fight with each other about whose responsibility it is to do something that everybody says they want to do. Well, we haven't actually. This is the other big elephant in the room. We've talked about conflict, conflict, conflict. We had COP. I mean, this time last year we did actually talk, I think, quite a lot about climate change. We've certainly in the past, on Inside Geneva, talked about how the UN Secretary General, antonio Guterres, when he started this thankless job, wanted climate change to be his legacy. He wanted to do something about it. Are we going anywhere?
Speaker 4:I mean, are we going anywhere? I think I'm poor. Antonio Guterres has had a lot on his plate besides climate Pandemic. Yes, and I think he is always, I think, saying that this is sort of this existential threat on top of all of the other threats. But I mean, have we been achieving a lot? I'm not sure. I think COP 28 did and, from what I understood, on a bit more of a positive note than some feared it would, perhaps.
Speaker 1:I think they did actually mention that it might, at some point in an indeterminate future, be a good idea to transition away from fossil fuels. It took an extra 36 hours, I think, to achieve that. What about you, emma?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know that it's a priority for Guterres, but I think, with so many conflicts around the world, I think it's hard for the UN to make that the top priority. I mean, it's a undercurrent all the time, but is it the one that they can focus on above all others? Let's see this year. It depends what happens. If there's another huge climate disaster, then obviously that will give it more.
Speaker 1:Isn't it just so human nature we need something really bad to happen, and then we might do something about it.
Speaker 2:Quite extraordinary that we've had to go through 28 COP's to get to one which says actually fossil fuels are a bad idea.
Speaker 1:We know the scientists have been telling us that for a really long time and now we think we'll write it down, just so we remember it.
Speaker 2:In a COP hosted by a state, of course, which is part and parcel of the whole fossil fuel industry. Yeah, all the iron is of that.
Speaker 1:On the one hand you can't say United Nations think you can't really say there's going to be part of the world We'll never have our climate change summit in. That would be. The UN can't do that, just like it can't really stop Iran cheering the Human Rights Council. It's an administrative kind of thing.
Speaker 2:But it's interesting also at a time when we're hearing so much talk about polarization between global north and south, between the rich and the poor, and the greatest stress on inequalities, which is all eminently justifiable, that in this particular COP some of the loudest voices against reference to fossil fuels were developing countries that depend on fossil fuels for their future development prospects. And then that pits them against the Maldives and the Pacific Island states that are looking at it rather existential threat of being flooded.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe that was one positive thing. There was this extra money for developing countries to transition away. That was agreed right at the start.
Speaker 1:We are almost at the end. As I warned, I think, at the beginning, this was not necessarily going to be the most cheerful and optimistic, because 23, we have to be honest is not been A fantastic year for many, many people, in far more challenging places than Geneva. But I will ask each of you to maybe this would be look ahead to 2024. What are you going to be looking at? What's the story you think? I do really want to have a hard look at that. Reverse the way around, to start with you.
Speaker 2:Good question. Well, we have coming up in January an issue that's been rather eclipsed by all the horrors of the past year, and that is China's up.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:The universal periodic review when we will see how this is its first real international scrutiny since the office of the High Commissioner produced a report saying that China committed crimes against humanity in its treatment of the Uighurs in. It's going to be a test part of how does the UN summarize that. And we haven't heard very much from Volker Turk on this issue at all since he became the High Commissioner and he said at the outset I own this report, I'm going to follow up. We see nothing. So it's going to be very interesting to see first of all how how China tries to get past this report in its presentation, the kind of recommendations that it will take on board. Are they going to be sort of the dog whistles from other authoritarian states saying you know, we like the way you're encouraging sort of intercultural cooperation in your minority states? And seeing how the UN also presents this issue and follow that on this. So that's one issue and I Having we've just had a global humanitarian appeal.
Speaker 2:Reduced from last year to 46 billion, and it'll be interesting to see you know how how this unfolds and how much Of the 46 billion they've asked for. I mean, this is a multilateral system that is absolutely falling apart under the strain of all the extreme events it's having to deal with and, you know, cutting back what in the past would have been considered minimal assistance to people in the extremes of human suffering. You know the world hasn't responded terribly well so far to this. I mean, we China, gives less than a million dollars to the, to the surf.
Speaker 1:Which is the emergency, to the emergency fund. That's less than half.
Speaker 2:Iceland this is the world's second biggest economy can't give more than a million dollars. Saudi Arabia, which offers a football or a contract of more than a billion dollars, didn't deliver a million dollars to the surf this year. You know what are people's priorities here.
Speaker 1:Dorian your story.
Speaker 4:I think I actually I also want to I mean, I'm gonna I also want to look at forgotten humanitarian crisis a bit more, because I guess here in Geneva we do hear a lot about them because we're still getting briefed on them quite regularly. Unfortunately doesn't always get into the news because there are those other big crisis we're talking about. But Even I mean I was recently just looking at the figures of the biggest humanitarian crisis and it's Syria, it's Ethiopia, it's Yemen probably still it might be Yemen as well.
Speaker 4:I mean Afghanistan is up there, so Ukraine comes in for it, and I mean they're all third funded now, when we're in mid December, and yeah yeah, and it's, and it's awful. So I think if we can shine a bit of a spotlight on that, that would be Probably good thing to do, need to have a word with our editors to actually take these stories.
Speaker 1:I mean, we're always competing. There's always a new war making the headlines and the other ones Slip off the agenda no well, I agree with both of you that it's a huge question.
Speaker 3:The humanitarian system almost existential, I'd say, and I'm not the only one to say that.
Speaker 3:I think that a grande has said that and head of the UN refugee agent head of the yes indeed, that we can't continue like this, and so that's gonna be a big one. And, of course, at a time when two of the biggest donors, the US and Germany, there are question marks, big question marks over what they can give next year. Refugees as well. Mentioning grande, we just had the global refugee forum and it was a good outcome and it was a very positive dynamic. But there is a very strong narrative amongst western countries especially that they need to tighten their borders and this is gonna be a very big one next year and going forward with more and more displacement from climate. Of course they're not officially refugees under the convention, but that's gonna be a big tension, I think, going forward next year. And maybe one word for the WTO, important year for their relevance, as obviously the ministerial conference in February. They're trying to fix their top appeals court and if they can't, then at least it's job as a watchdog will be dealt a big blow.
Speaker 1:That's one to watch yeah, that's been bubbling along for a while that if they can't solve disputes and watch when a country is overstepping the mark with unfair trade, that's gonna. I mean, these are also sources of conflict of which we really have enough at the moment. Well, just for me, I do want to do something more about Afghanistan. We heard this term, gender apartheid, used in the second half of of this year. I mean, there's a big dilemma, I think, for UN agencies In Afghanistan how far they can work with the Taliban when this is going on. Ukraine, we've hardly talked about, we hardly talked about. I think it is gonna slip down the agenda and I'm wondering if it's gonna be descend into one of these frozen conflicts which will suck Masses of funding and energy from the humanitarian organizations, like they've been doing in Afghanistan for decades. Yemen, syria, and we will come full circle this time next year and they will have another appeal. They will say twenty, twenty three. They only got Twenty five percent of what they asked for. They'll cut funding again. We were talking this morning about how the world food program is cut to food rations in Afghanistan, to very vulnerable people, yeah, and in Yemen, a really pessimistic note which every, every humanitarian agency will tell you that poverty and vulnerability leads to tensions, leads to conflict, leaves to poverty and vulnerability and somehow we don't learn. That is twenty twenty three for you. My thanks to Nick, dorian and Emma.
Speaker 1:Next time on inside Geneva, we talked a bit about the ICRC's role with prisoners of war and hostages. We have An in depth interview with the director, their director for the Middle East, so tune in for that. That's the ninth of January. A reminder you've been listening to inside Geneva, a Swiss info production. You can email us on inside Geneva at Swiss info dot c h, and subscribe to us and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Check out our previous episodes how the international Red Cross unites prisoners of war with their families, or why survivors of human rights violations turned to the UN in Geneva for justice. I'm Imogen, folks. Thanks again for listening.