Inside Geneva
Inside Geneva is a podcast about global politics, humanitarian issues, and international aid, hosted by journalist Imogen Foulkes. It is produced by SWI swissinfo.ch, a multilingual international public service media company from Switzerland.
Inside Geneva
Summer profiles: Afghan women’s struggle against Taliban oppression
It’s three years since the Taliban took back control in Afghanistan. Inside Geneva talks to an Afghan human rights defender.
“I was scared and I could see it coming. Yes, I mean, I think for the women of Afghanistan, we knew that the Taliban taking over would mean a dark future for women,” says Fereshta Abbasi from Human Rights Watch.
In three years, women’s rights have been steadily, and brutally, repressed.
“No matter what we have done in the past three years, we haven’t been able to reverse a single decree of the Taliban that is restricting women’s rights,” continues Abbasi.
“In 2024, Afghanistan remains the only country in the world where women do not have access to education beyond the sixth grade. Women do not have the right to most employment. Women do not have the right to freedom of movement. Women do not have the right to protest and assemble. So, I think we need to speak about it,” says Abbasi.
What can we do to support Afghan women?
“I think it’s very important to stand with them, to listen to them, and to amplify their voices. It’s very difficult to think of a better Afghanistan, a brighter future for women under Taliban rule. And I don’t want to think about that. I want to believe and hold my strength together, that this madness cannot last.”
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Host: Imogen Foulkes
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This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host, imogen Foulkes, and this is a production from Swissinfo, the international public media company of Switzerland.
Speaker 2:In today's program, american troops cleared out of Bagram, their biggest base in Afghanistan.
Speaker 3:I was scared and I could see it coming. Yes, I mean, I think for women of Afghanistan we need that. Taliban taking over Afghanistan means that it will be a dark future for women.
Speaker 2:Bloodied but defiant, they chant we're not afraid of you. This is the price women pay for confronting the Taliban and demanding equal rights.
Speaker 3:No matter what we have done in the past three years, we haven't been able to reverse one single decree of the Taliban that is restricting women's rights.
Speaker 4:The Taliban government of Afghanistan has ordered an indefinite ban on university education for women.
Speaker 3:In 2024, Afghanistan remains to be the only country in the world where women do not have access to education beyond sixth grade. Women do not have the right to most employment. Women do not have the right to freedom of movement. Women do not have the right to protest and assemble. So I think we need to speak about it.
Speaker 2:This is the price girls had to pay just for going to school in Kabul. Today, islamic militants in Afghanistan oppose education for girls.
Speaker 3:I think it's very important to stand with them, to listen with them and to amplify their voices. It's very difficult to think of a better Afghanistan, a brighter future for women under the Taliban rule. I want to believe and hold my strength together that this madness cannot last.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva. I'm Imogen Fowkes, and in today's programme it's three years since the Taliban took back control in Afghanistan, three years in which the rights of Afghan women and girls have been steadily and brutally repressed. So today, our summer profile features an Afghan human rights defender, a woman now exiled from her native country, but not giving up the fight for her rights.
Speaker 3:My name is Fereshtab Bussi and I am the Afghanistan researcher for Human Rights Watch. I currently live in exile in London.
Speaker 1:So you're originally from Afghanistan and it's three years since the Taliban returned. Let's just go back to three years ago. What were your thoughts then? Had you expected it Looking?
Speaker 3:back into the events pre-August 2021,. I think, logically, it makes sense now to think and see the events as an outsider, that the collapse of the former government was actually foreseeable. But I couldn't see it at that point. So I was witnessing that Provinces were falling to the hands of Taliban, one after another.
Speaker 4:Over many years, and at a cost of tens of billions of dollars, the US trained and equipped Afghan forces to be ready to take back control of their country, but they collapsed like a house of cards.
Speaker 3:It began from Kandahar and then it came to Mazar and then Herat. When they took over Herat, that's when I realized that this is serious, Because Herat is home to me, because I lived there, I studied there, so that city was somewhere that felt so close to my heart. When they took over that I was like, okay, this is serious. And that's when I tried to think what can I do from now on?
Speaker 1:Well, we're three years on now and for women in particular, the situation seems to have got worse and worse. Did you expect this to be such a long-term thing? Did you hope they would be out in another few months?
Speaker 3:um, we could see it coming. The word taliban itself had always scared me. The word taliban itself has always reminded me of restrictions on women's rights.
Speaker 4:We had the experience of the Taliban's government in the 90s for a few years, so as a teenager I knew how women were actually living during the first Taliban takeover, when the Taliban took over in 1996, a strict version of Islamic Sharia law was imposed across Afghanistan, with a number of laws specifically aimed at stripping away the fundamental human rights of women and girls. Bans were imposed on women. They couldn't even leave the house without a male chaperone and were required to wear a burqa so as not to show any bare skin and when the Taliban took over for the second time.
Speaker 3:Even though there were discussions about the Taliban 1.0 and then 2.0, I was scared and I could see it coming. Yes, I mean, I think for women of Afghanistan. We need that Taliban taking over Afghanistan means that it will be a dark future for women.
Speaker 1:You come regularly, we meet in Geneva, you talk to UN member states. Are you heartened by some of the reports? We've seen the use of the word gender apartheid, for example.
Speaker 3:So one of the things that is happening right now in Afghanistan is that Afghanistan is quite a unique crisis, especially the women's right crisis. Right, the restrictions on women's rights, the abuse that women are bearing in Afghanistan, the systematic abuse, is quite unique and I think that's why organizations, including local rights defenders, are pushing for the term gender apartheid, because they believe that the situation is unique and it needs a unique solution. What they believe at this point is that the existing UN mechanism cannot really respond to what is happening in Afghanistan and we need to come up with solutions to be able to respond to the massive crisis that is happening there of crisis that is happening there.
Speaker 5:With the situation continuing to deteriorate for women in Afghanistan, questions are being asked as what the international community can do to place pressure with their eye on the long term. A prominent group of Afghan and Iranian women are now backing a campaign calling for gender apartheid to be recognized as a crime under international law.
Speaker 1:I've had one or two Western diplomats suggest that they're not quite comfortable with this term gender apartheid.
Speaker 3:I think. I mean there's lots of arguments. There are people who agree, there are people who don't agree and, as you said, you can see that in some reports you can see that they're using the term gender apartheid. Some others don't. There were people who were pushing back against using the term and there were local rights defenders who were using the term.
Speaker 3:What I believe at this point, especially as a woman who's as an Afghan woman, who's living outside Afghanistan, I think what is quite important and it is a lesson learned from the past 20 years of the international community being in Afghanistan I think what is quite important and it is a lesson learned from the past 20 years of the international community being in Afghanistan, is that they need to listen to the people inside Afghanistan. They need to listen to the local rights defender. So one of the things that the diplomats can do actually is to listen, to interact and to see what actually the local rights defender are pushing for and they want, and I think it is a valuable call that women's rights defenders from Afghanistan are making and I think it needs to be heard by these diplomats.
Speaker 1:I'm just wondering though we have the reports, fine words maybe, from human rights experts in Geneva, but at the same time, quite recently in Doha, negotiations with UN representatives were held with the Taliban, and the Taliban said there should be no women there at all. So it seems that the actions are not really living up to the fine words.
Speaker 3:What happened in Doha 3 was a clear violation of the UN Resolution 1325. Women need to be part of all these processes and need to have a voice on the table. They need to have decision-making powers right. We don't want just women to be there in symbolic positions, and that's what the UN should have observed as its own resolution In Qatar delegates gather for Doha 3, a meeting of 25 countries on the situation in Afghanistan.
Speaker 6:For the first time, the Taliban will join discussions covering the economy, aid, narcotics and security. Women, however, have been left off the agenda.
Speaker 3:It saddens me to speak about the Doha 3. It actually annoys me to speak about that, where the Taliban had a seat and they came prepared. They spoke about things that they wanted to speak and, at the same time, women were not part of that, thinking of Afghanistan as one of the worst women's rights crises in the world, I do not think that you can have any sort of meeting on anything and not include women of Afghanistan on the agenda. That's impossible.
Speaker 1:Some of the UN's humanitarian chiefs, though, would say we've got to keep some dialogue open with them to continue our work there.
Speaker 3:And I agree on that. I think engagement is vital and no one is actually calling for no engagement with the Taliban, right, principal engagement is what we are calling for. There needs to be benchmarks on how these engagements should be done and I think at this point three years has passed I think there is time for the international community to see what the result of the engagement has been, where they're seeing that this engagement is going, to what extent it has been useful, and they need to come up with some terms on how to engage with the Taliban, with a group who basically can come back and say to the international community including some of these countries who have, I mean, a record on human rights that if women of Afghanistan are on the table, we're not speaking. So I think there needs to be some benchmarks for that.
Speaker 1:Give me a practical example of what principal engagement would look like. Can the humanitarian agencies still insist, for example, that women are allowed to work for them?
Speaker 3:I think, yes, they can. So I just wanted to give a little bit of the context, because we are in July 2024. More than 23 million Afons, which are more than half of the population, is facing food insecurity, and I want to say this because I know that what is happening in Afghanistan is a massive humanitarian crisis as well. People need food, people do not have jobs, the economic system has collapsed, so those are all understandable, but one of the things that the humanitarian aid organization needs to consider is that they need to make sure that, first of all, the aid is reaching the most vulnerable people and they need to make sure that they operate in the country without reinforcing the Taliban's abusive policy, especially when it comes to the rights of women and girls.
Speaker 7:Well, three major aid groups have suspended their operations in Afghanistan, saying they can't work without their female staff. This follows an order by the country's Taliban rulers telling all humanitarian organizations to stop employing women.
Speaker 6:Severely malnourished, born underweight, fighting for every breath Scenes repeated at almost every hospital in Afghanistan.
Speaker 3:It's impossible to imagine that the aid could reach women if women are not part of that process. And I mean I would like to say, to some extent, some aid organizations inside Afghanistan are managing to operate one way or another way. It is a critical, it is a very, very difficult situation to operate, but they are managing to do so. When it comes to a principal engagement, I think, first of all, there needs to be some red lines. Human rights and women's rights needs to be in the core agenda of every single meeting that these diplomats or the UN agencies are having with the Taliban. The Taliban leadership needs to know that they are responsible for what is happening in Afghanistan and there shouldn't be any mitigation on that.
Speaker 1:I'm just wondering, though I'm sure the Taliban do know that other countries are very unhappy with their policy towards women, and they just don't seem to care. I mean, it's not as if they've offered any compromises, it's just got worse and worse and worse.
Speaker 3:I agree. I think it's frustrating for everyone around the world. No matter what we have done in the past three years, we haven't been able to reverse one single decree of the Taliban that is restricting women's rights. Nothing has really changed on the ground. Actually, the crackdown has increased.
Speaker 3:We have recently had the cases of women being detained, arbitrarily detained by the Taliban forces in Kabul for, as they called it, bad hijab, which basically means women not properly wearing clothes, according to what the Taliban definition of hijab. So this is a crackdown on women's rights. This is increasing restrictions on women's freedom of speech. So I think I agree that the Taliban knows that the world is not happy with them, but they need to see that, they need to hear it from the world, they need to see actions and they need to know that there are consequences for these abuses. The Taliban have been doing these abuses for the past three years with impunity. They haven't been held accountable or responsible for what they are doing, and I believe that three years is a good reminder for the world to put an end to these abuses.
Speaker 1:So the main international presence in Afghanistan is humanitarian the vast majority of it in Afghanistan is humanitarian the vast majority of it. What could consequences be that wouldn't harm the very people you're actually hoping to help? We know that women and children are the most vulnerable to food insecurity, for example.
Speaker 3:One of the things is that the UN humanitarian response plan for 2024, and I mean we're speaking of July is only funded by 12% this year. So the countries need to make sure that their response plan is fully funded so people who are in need of food in Afghanistan receive the aid and the help and the food that they want. At the same time, I think it's very important to find ways to hold the Taliban accountable, because we don't want to punish the people of Afghanistan for the Taliban's act, and there are a couple of options right now that I mean there are mechanisms of accountability, there are ways and there are existing mechanisms actually that can hold the Taliban individuals within the Taliban leadership accountable for what they're doing. So, for example, afghanistan has an active investigation at the International Criminal Court. Reaching to a decision for ISIS's investigation is one way, and even though the Taliban are not recognized as a government, that doesn't give them a free pass, they still have international obligations under the treaties and they could be held responsible for these abuses against women and girls. You are.
Speaker 1:Afghan, as you said, living in exile but working very hard to defend the rights of your colleagues, women colleagues, in Afghanistan. Nevertheless, it's very, very difficult, dangerous for them. What do you tell them? What's your message?
Speaker 3:Hope. I think Hope is what we are all trying to keep alive. I mean, one of the things that helps me quite a lot is seeing so many local rights defenders inside Afghanistan and outside Afghanistan who are still trying to push for change inside the country.
Speaker 2:This protest Saturday, violently suppressed by Taliban fighters. Rifle butts and tear gas used against women asking only to work, go to school and to be included in Afghanistan's new government.
Speaker 3:Those who have been evacuated since 15th of August 2021, it will be almost three years that they are out. They're living outside upon a sun. Anyone who think of that can basically say that, oh, these women are relatively safe, so that's why they're advocating. They have the opportunity to advocate. I mean, as my own experience, three years is not a long time. Each women's rights defender that you see, is traumatized. People are still very emotional about what happened. As I mentioned to you that we couldn't see it coming like this. It was kind of a shock for us and it is actually very traumatizing reminding of ourselves, of the life that we had before 2021.
Speaker 3:I'm not saying Afghanistan has been an ideal country for women to live in. No, even before the takeover of the Taliban, afghanistan has always ranked to be one of the worst countries in the world to live as a woman in. But we had hope and we were resisting. We thought that we are on the right path. We believe that it will change the future for the next generation or the young generation of Afghanistan. That hope. It's very difficult to keep that alive now with all what is happening in Afghanistan. But what inspires me is women of Afghanistan in the country who are still fighting, and one of the questions that I usually ask myself is that what would I have done if I were in Afghanistan these days? Like would I have dared to actually go to the streets to protest, to speak about what I think is right? I don't have an answer. I don't think if anyone can answer that unless you are in the country. And at the same time, these women have lost everything that they have, so they also think that this is the only way forward.
Speaker 7:Defiance in Afghanistan. Women protesting in the capital Tuesday after the Taliban strips yet another freedom away.
Speaker 3:All of this together gives me hope and I think we are all kind of connected to each other throughout this collective hope that we have for an Afghanistan that we all have can enjoy our basic rights, our fundamental rights there. So there is this collective goal and hope that is keeping us together and we keep pushing for it.
Speaker 1:What can women outside Afghanistan do to support you?
Speaker 3:I think there is a lot actually. First of all, one of the things that I usually say is that please make sure that the world does not forget about Afghanistan. One crisis after another, and I can understand that Afghanistan doesn't make the headlines anymore. What is happening in the country? People don't really hear about that, and I think one of the things that we need to keep reminding ourselves is that raising awareness about Afghanistan, keep reminding ourselves is that raising awareness about Afghanistan, I think, is a moral obligation at this point for women outside Afghanistan, for I mean feminists around the world. If you believe in the fact that women have equal rights as men, you cannot just close your eyes on what is happening in Afghanistan. In 2024, afghanistan remains to be the only country in the world where women do not have access to education beyond sixth grade. Women do not have the right to most employment. Women do not have the right to freedom of movement. Women do not have the right to protest and assemble, so I think we need to speak about it. That's one thing I mean.
Speaker 3:Listening to people of Afghanistan and amplifying their voices is also quite important, because those who are inside Afghanistan it's very difficult for them to channel their voices. They're living under a system that is oppressing them. They're living in their system that is pushing back to their houses, and they have very little resources available to them to advocate for what is happening in Afghanistan. I think it's very important to stand with them, to listen with them and to amplify their voices. How long do you think this could last? That's a question that I don't want to answer because it makes me really sad. Sometimes it could be a coping mechanism. Sometimes you try to ignore things because you don't want those thoughts to push you back and you want to still believe that there is a brighter future ahead. It's very difficult to think of a better Afghanistan, a brighter future for women, under the Taliban rule, and I don't want to think about that. I want to believe and hold my strength together that this madness cannot last.
Speaker 1:Let's try to share Fereshteh's hope that this madness cannot last and let's support her and her brave colleagues by not forgetting, amid all the other madness in the world, about the women of Afghanistan. That brings us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva. My thanks to Fereshtah Abbasi for her time and her thoughts. Next time on Inside Geneva, we'll bring you the last in our series of summer profiles, with an interview with the head of a Geneva organisation working for reparation for survivors of sexual violence. And on September 10th we've got a very special episode for you, direct from the World Trade Organization, where the WTO is holding its annual public forum. Inside Geneva got an exclusive look at this year's World Trade Report and a chance to sit down with the WTO's Deputy Director General and its Chief Economist, who told me why re-globalisation is their new buzzword. Join us on September 3rd for our final summer profile and September 10th to find out everything you ever wanted to know about global trade.
Speaker 1:That's it from Inside Geneva for this week. Thank you for listening. A reminder you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a Swissinfo production. You can email us on insidegeneva at swissinfoch and subscribe to us and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Check out our previous episodes, how the International Red Cross unites prisoners of war with their families, or why survivors of human rights violations turn to the UN in Geneva for justice. I'm Imogen Folks. Thanks again for listening.
