Inside Geneva
Inside Geneva is a podcast about global politics, humanitarian issues, and international aid, hosted by journalist Imogen Foulkes. It is produced by SWI swissinfo.ch, a multilingual international public service media company from Switzerland.
Inside Geneva
Love for life in Gaza and COP29’s ethical dilemma in Azerbaijan
On Inside Geneva this week we talk to the people behind a new book about life in Gaza, told through the words of those who live there.
“People are actually travelling in the middle of a war, in the middle of Gaza at midnight – the peak of the risk, if you like – to get somewhere where they can get a better internet so they can actually talk to us,” says Mahmoud Muna, editor of Daybreak in Gaza.
This book, edited by Mahmoud Muna and Matthew Teller with Juliette Touma and Jayyab Abusafia, is about history, culture, food, music and life.
“It’s not a football game. This is about our humanity and it’s about being able to sympathise with people wherever they are. This is not about taking sides. It’s about whether we’re human or not,” says Touma.
“This book does not give voice to the voiceless. The people of Gaza, like people everywhere, have voices. The point of this book is not to give a voice; the point of this book is to amplify the voices of the people who are not being listened to,” continues Teller.
In this episode, we also ask why human rights groups are uneasy about the upcoming UN Climate Change Conference (COP29) in Azerbaijan.
“Dozens have been arrested in the months leading up to COP29, including 16 journalists, other society activists, and NGO leaders. There is still time for Azerbaijan to set the record straight, and they should release them. The UN should engage with Azerbaijan to ensure that it does so,” says Giorgi Gogia from Human Rights Watch.
Tales from life in Gaza, climate change, and human rights. Catch this and more in the latest episode of our Inside Geneva podcast.
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Host: Imogen Foulkes
Production assitant: Claire-Marie Germain
Distribution: Sara Pasino
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This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host, imogen Fowkes, and this is a production from Swissinfo, the international public media company of Switzerland.
Speaker 2:In today's programme, this book does not give voice to the voiceless. The people of Gaza have voices, and they've been yelling and shouting and screaming and trying to be heard for so long and so few people have been listening to them. The point of this book is not to give a voice. The point of this book is to amplify the voices of the people who are not being listened to.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva. I'm Imogen Fowkes. In today's programme we're going to hear about a new book about life in Gaza, and later we're going to take a look at why human rights groups have concerns that COP29, the annual climate conference, is being held in Azerbaijan and what role the UN should play.
Speaker 4:Dozens have been arrested in the months leading to COP29, including 16 journalists and other society activists, ngo leaders, and there is time for Azerbaijan still to set the record right, and they should be releasing them, and UN should be engaging with Azerbaijan to ensure that it does so.
Speaker 1:First, though, what do we really know about Gaza? We know the current brutal conflict, the destroyed towns. Most of us know Gaza has been blockaded by Israel for 18 years and we know, of course, that on October 7th last year, some people from Gaza carried out a horrific attack on Israelis. But what about everything else, the things that, over decades, made Gazans love their home like we love ours? In the latest in our occasional series, Books to Make you Think, we're going to talk about Daybreak in Gaza, a new book that documents life in the Gaza Strip in all its many facets Its history, culture, food, music and now the tragic loss of much of that.
Speaker 1:The book is a collection of personal stories from Gaza residents, collected and edited by Mahmoud Mouna, Matthew Teller and Juliet Tuma. Mahmoud, sometimes called the bookseller of Jerusalem, runs two family bookshops there. Matthew is a journalist specialising in the Middle East, and Juliet, some of our listeners may know, is Director of Communications for the UN Relief Agency for Palestinians, UNRWA. I'm delighted to say they're all joining us Mahmoud from Jerusalem, Matthew from London and Juliet from Beirut. But just before we hear from them, here is an excerpt from the book Daybreak in Gaza.
Speaker 5:If only I had known to plan for a genocide, I would have cherished those last moments at home my last night in a bed, my last morning coffee, my last kibbeh dipped in hummus, my last day at work, my last laugh, my last birthday celebration, my last everything.
Speaker 1:That's from the new book Daybreak in Gaza, and over the course of our discussion we'll be hearing more excerpts and our guests will be highlighting their own favourite chapters. But first let's hear from Mahmoud. Welcome to Inside Geneva. You're the book's editor. You're also Palestinian. Tell us how you got involved in this particular project.
Speaker 6:Yeah, that takes me back to December, when I was sitting in my office wondering what could we do, how could we help, how could we present Gaza differently than just building being destroyed? And, of course, life is being lost, and I was thinking about the Palestinian experience all the way from Nakba of 1948. And I was thinking about the lack of information, the lack of reporting on how, in these times of wars, the society gets undone. The fabric of the society and the daily operation of different types of people get really stopped and interrupted and shattered and get undone really. And as I was watching the reporting coming from Gaza, I noticed a similar pattern and I imagined to myself what about if my bookstore was in Gaza and I am trying to invite my authors and sell my books in Gaza? How would that be affected?
Speaker 6:That got me thinking about all these normal people in the streets of Gaza and in institutions, in culture, in art, but also in hospital and in universities and in trade and business and so on, that their daily routine, their daily life has stopped, and I think this really is the terrible outcome of the war, in addition, of course, to destruction and losing lives. And that was my little attempt to document that part of the story, if you like, but it's also there's another selfish and I must confess here there's a very selfish reason. As we're watching and not able to do anything, I was worried about my young daughters in 20 years asking me back in time when this was happening, when people were killed, what did you do about it? And in a selfish way, I wanted to do something so I can answer that question.
Speaker 7:I had a marvelous childhood. Early in the morning we would wait for the fishermen to come in in their boats, then go down to the shore, buy fish and cook and eat it fresh. At weekends we would have Khedra rice and meat in a clay pot, followed by slices of watermelon, and we had parties dancing to American rock and roll. I was so spoiled. Gaza was a beautiful place. Our house was destroyed in the recent airstrikes, completely demolished.
Speaker 1:I think that that reflects what I felt about it too that we see so much on the news but very little about the life of ordinary individuals and the things they do, and that they enjoyed doing, juliet. One of the things that really struck me reading this book is an almost united not explicit, but united plea Don't forget what we were or are. We don't want to be just a statistic.
Speaker 8:This is the people of Gaza. You summed it up the people of Gaza who love life and love to live and have a most wonderful sense of humour. That's the people of Gaza, and even during the worst of the worst, they are so determined to live. When I used to go to Gaza before the war, it was a breath of fresh air, regardless of the restrictions that we had to go through on the Israeli checkpoint. But the minute you're done with all of that and you come in and you start smelling the Mediterranean and you see the hustle and bustle and people on donkey carts selling goods, whether it's fish, whether it's strawberries, whether it's citrus, and you see people having coffee and refreshments by the sea.
Speaker 8:And this is I'm not talking about Gaza. In the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, I was in Gaza just 10 days before the war started, right, and of course, I went to Gaza during the war, but I was based in Jerusalem for one year and for me, it was a great break. Every time I went to Gaza, believe it or not and this is, I think, one of the reasons why we wanted to do this book is a tribute to that love of life. People in wars become more determined, determined to live, and they remind all of us of how privileged and how lucky we are.
Speaker 9:My daily routine was amazing. I worked as a project officer at one of the local institutions here. I started my day walking beside the sea on the Cornish. After work, I would go to the gym, then spend the evening with my children and friends. We had the sea, we had a great beach. We had places to go. I miss this life.
Speaker 1:Matthew, let's come to you, because, as we said earlier, matthew, let's come to you because, as we said earlier, the news people outside Gaza and you're in London, I believe now the news we get is horror and misery. Many people I know say that they just can't watch anymore. How important is it? Do you think that people can see this other picture that's in the book?
Speaker 2:I think it's vitally important. I think you're absolutely right. Just to add to what Juliette was saying, a very strong message that came through from many of the conversations that we had for this book and also afterwards, is that the people of Gaza, almost universally from the people that we spoke to said we don't want to be seen as monsters. We're not all terrorists, we're not all violent and whatever the stereotype that is so often portrayed. And equally, we're also not all superheroes. We're not like super resilient, able to withstand anything and stand up to the onslaughts. We're human. We're just ordinary human beings. It's a simplistic message, but it's one that, in these situations, resonates particularly strongly, I think.
Speaker 2:I think it's vitally important for us, looking in from the outside, to be able to see past the geopolitics and to be able to see past the diplomacy and the impacts of policy and to see the real people and to see what those policies and that diplomacy and those geopolitical maneuverings are doing to individuals and to families and to children and to the vulnerable. And you know, if this book in some small way helps people to be able to do that, to place themselves in a similar position to the appalling, unspeakable atrocities that are being visited on the people of Gaza. Then I was about to say I'm delighted. I'm not delighted, I'm. I feel a sense of fulfillment if the book is able to achieve that aim.
Speaker 1:But it certainly resonated with me. You know you have the mother of two children remembering fondly how she used to go to the gym, or the young lad trying to get his sister's favourite pet cat across into Gaza for his sister's wedding. I mean, these are things that will speak to, I think, many people, to our common humanity. But I did wonder you collected these stories, I think in three months, at the beginning of this year, in the midst of a really brutal conflict, with very little access for journalists, for example international journalists to Gaza. How challenging was it and how willing were the people you contacted to say yeah, I'm going to write about this now.
Speaker 2:People were extraordinarily forthcoming. I mean, it surprised, I think, all of us how much people wanted the chance to speak. It's a very important point. I think, and I try to make this as often as possible this book does not give voice to the voiceless. The people of Gaza, and as the same as people everywhere, have voices, and they've been yelling and shouting and screaming and trying to be heard for so long, for so long, and so few people have been listening to them. The point of this book is not to give a voice. The point of this book is to amplify the voices of the people who are not being listened to. And once we were able to make contact, it was also, in some cases, very difficult to make contact. Mahmoud, I'm sure, can talk about this as well, but once we did make contact, it was as if the floodgates opened. People really wanted to be heard. They had stories to tell.
Speaker 1:Mahmoud. Is there an element which this is a hard question, but is there an element for some of the people who contribute that I need to put something down on paper because tomorrow might be too late?
Speaker 6:I think certainly we felt that need to deliver the story, if you like, before something terrible happens. We had many of our contributors. Actually, the process of communication wasn't, of course, easy. We were using all types of technologies and internet and phone and even recorded messages to get the stories out. I remember vividly a couple of nights when people were having bad connection and they said, look, let's talk at midnight, I will travel somewhere where there's internet and then we can continue the conversation.
Speaker 6:And suddenly occurred to me that people are actually traveling in the middle of a war, in the middle of Gaza at midnight the peak of the risk, if you like to get somewhere where they can get a better internet so they can actually talk to us. And there you feel the urgency or the importance for people to actually kind of register their voice, if you like, or send their message or send a story. That was, I don't want to say shocking, but that was humbling really to feel that the privilege that we have, having all the communication and all the space that we have, yet people are taking out on their own personal risk to reach out to us and tell us their story and connect us with someone else who might also add to the story, and that's how one interview was leading into another interview as well.
Speaker 10:February 9th 2024. It's a sunny day and if there were no war, I would have spent it swimming in the sea. As I drive down to Rafah on the coast road, I see people and fishermen gathering by the shore, while the clear water invites those who have no water at home to take a dip and wash. I see dozens wading into the water with their shower gel and their joy. Suddenly, I hear engines rising. I see two gunboats racing towards the beach. As they approach the fishing boats, they open fire. Everyone is terrified and tries to get away. Our innocent act of resilience, fishing and keeping clean, represented no threat.
Speaker 1:You might find this a slightly odd quest. It's a very western question. The Gaza-Israel question in the west, in Europe, is incredibly polarised. Everybody has a view and people from Europe, the United States, coming to this book, might expect that also in this book, and yet it's not there. There is not, for example, a massive pro-Hamas, certainly not. There is not a you know some of the more extreme statements about Israel. It is not there at all. Juliet, do you have any thoughts about that?
Speaker 8:It's very, very good that you say that, because, again, this is the Gaza people.
Speaker 8:I love people who do not hate anyone, and I think this is our small contribution to the world, including international media, but also others who have decided very early on to box the people of Gaza, as they're all one thing and they're all Hamas, which is far from the truth.
Speaker 8:Which is far from the truth. There is a lot that the world is missing out on what's actually happening in Gaza, beyond the atrocities and beyond what the very heroic Palestinian journalists are giving to all of us and, of course, the UN and the Red Cross and all the other organizations. But that's not enough. There has to be free access for international journalists to spend time in Gaza, to do that safely, and that is something that the parties to the conflict have got to do. I don't know why it's not been done, but it's certainly helping to deepen the polarisation that you have to be either pro or anti. It's not a football game. This is about our humanity and it's about being able to sympathise with people wherever they are. This is not about taking sides. It's about whether we're human or not.
Speaker 5:In this war. Who am I? To the world, it seems, I'm just a number, a person who is counted on a list of people displaced, people injured, or people hungry or thirsty, and if the next bomb is for me, I will be forgotten.
Speaker 1:You call the book Daybreak in Gaza, which to me has this real ring of optimism to it. And it's so hard for us outside we see what we see, the limited stuff we see, but it's horrific to see any form of optimism, particularly as this conflict is spreading. But I think you call it that because of the spirit and the humanity to see any form of optimism, particularly as this conflict is spreading. But I think you call it that because of the spirit and the humanity in the book. Do you have particular excerpts, just short ones, that you could share with us that would explain to our listeners why you've called it Daybreak in Gaza and why you have that note of optimism?
Speaker 2:I'm very happy to chip in. Yes, what I'm going to offer, if I can, is not a reading. This is a short audio clip it's about a minute or so which we received from a woman called Amani Sheltut. Amani looks after is the director of the United Nations of the UNRWA photo archive in Gaza City, and I sent some questions by text and then she chose to reply by voice.
Speaker 2:I find this clip extraordinarily moving for a lot of reasons. One is that you can hear the drones overhead as she's speaking, which is that noise, that buzzing noise, is an ever-present in Gaza. People cannot ever eliminate the sound of drones. And, in addition to that, while she is answering my trivial questions about what her favourite image was in the archive that she is taking care of, you can also hear the bombs falling behind her as well. And yet she has this desire, willingness, presence of mind to continue with what she's saying, to deliver a message to the world through me, and that responsibility, that burden, if you like, is one that I take very, very seriously. I'll play you this clip now hi and salam from gaza.
Speaker 3:First of all, I wish you all the best in your book About my favourite images. My favourite images are those about education, particularly those show children learning in open air or in the tents, where some pupils were sitting on the sands and they don't even have seats. Actually, for me, these images show the desire and a need to change for better and a kind of a challenge to all of these tough circumstances, and that mustn't be the fate forever and, as we used to say that, education is the passport for our future and also and you could be make us a proud of the our identity. Many, many thanks for you and for all those who stand in solidarity with Gaza. It's really, really appreciated and actually what you are doing is a turning point in history.
Speaker 2:It sets me off every time that clip, but I feel like it's important to share, whether I can.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much, Matthew, for that. I think that illustrates very well why you chose this title. People keep their faith in desire for education, the desire to further their lives, despite, as you said, the drones and the bombs in the background. What about you, Juliet? Do you have a particular excerpt that inspired you particularly?
Speaker 8:I loved many, many, many, many, many stories. Many stories made me laugh or smile. The falafel story I loved, and I think there's a number of of people that have already read the book and and are liking the book. But I think story number one continues to be Lulu the cat, and that story just was incredible. It was just so, so beautiful. And again it shows courage and determination and lightness in how people go about their lives.
Speaker 8:And it also shows something that I think important is that none of this has begun on the 7th of October and that people have been living through blockade and checkpoints and restrictions for many, many decades the Palestinian people, I mean. And you know, to have something as simple as transferring a pet from one city to another becomes such an ordeal. I really loved how that story was put together.
Speaker 1:I have to say I've been reading the book all day. I haven't quite finished it yet, but so far Lulu the Cat, is also up there among my favourites. Mahmoud, I'm going to come. Finally, your nickname, I think, is the bookseller of Jerusalem. I'm sure this book is on your bookstore shelves. Do you have a favorite excerpt that illustrates for us the idea of daybreak in gaza?
Speaker 6:I, I do, and actually among the most interesting pieces for me throughout the working the book is, uh, people who work in the cultural and art scene, because these are close people to my heart and I consider them colleagues. So I'm going to read a short story of an entry that Hossam al-Madhoun wrote, and Hossam is a child protection officer in a humanitarian organization in Gaza, but he also has a theatrical background and he also works in theater, and this is a very short story that I will read See yourself for a shekel. A boy in the market is holding a tiny piece of mirror encouraging people to look at their faces. For one shekel this is about 25 American US cents he's making a living by offering a very rare service. I have not seen my face since I arrived in Rafah many weeks ago. You cannot buy mirrors anymore and anyway, a mirror is something you forget about. In this situation, how you look doesn't really matter. I asked him do you make money this way? He tells me he does. Lots of people want to see themselves. He says I make 30 shekels a day or more. But you see him.
Speaker 6:The boy points to a man down the street, walking away from us. He looked at his face but gave the mirror back to me without paying. I'm not stopping him, though. He had a cut from his face all the way down to his chest, a long, horrible cut, not healed well at all, I think it was from shrapnel. He looked at his big ugly scar and when he gave me back the mirror I saw saw he was crying so I let him go. I took the boy's mirror and looked at my face. It's got very skinny. I have no mirror for shaving, so the stubble on my chin is all uneven Bits, longer than other bits. I am a mess. I did not cry. I gave the child two shekels and continued walking.
Speaker 1:A situation most of us can hardly imagine, and that, again, is why we should read this book.
Speaker 6:Mirror is a very, very interesting metaphor to use because I think, as people reading the book, they also need to hold the pages as a mirror to themselves see how are they after this war, what have they felt and what are they able to do to stop these horrible things from continuing to happen. So I like that piece because it's very visual, it has the child's humour to it, but it also represents us all with a mirror in front of our face to see ourselves as well.
Speaker 1:The optimism, humanity that life shines through in this book and I would urge you all, even though you can't bear to watch the news anymore, that Daybreak in Gaza will open your eyes and is really a very rewarding, optimistic, in many ways read. It will make you laugh. It may also make you cry. Juliet Tumor, mahmoud Muna and Matthew Teller, thank you all very much for taking part and good luck to all of you with the book. Mahmoud Muna, juliet, juliet Tuma and Matthew Teller joining us there from Jerusalem, beirut and London to tell us about the new book Daybreak in Gaza.
Speaker 1:Now, before our next interview, some exciting news. Our next episode of Inside Geneva will be coming to you from New York, taking a look at what the UN over there does sometimes a big question for those of us based in Geneva and hearing about the continued bravery of Russian human rights defenders, some of whom are in New York to remind UN member states of the incredible and risky work they do. Join us for that on November 12th. Join us for that on November 12th, but now in just a couple of weeks the UN Climate Conference COP29, will be held in Baku, in Azerbaijan.
Speaker 4:COP29 is definitely the most important event of this year. As a host country, we have a unique opportunity to be the center of the discussions to be.
Speaker 9:The Azerbaijan, a major fossil fuel producer and exporter, is the host of this year's UN Climate Conference, cop29. And it has an appalling human rights record.
Speaker 1:It's not the first time the UN has held the conference in a major oil and gas producer. Last year it was held in the United Arab Emirates, the year before in Egypt. And these are also, human rights groups say, countries with very questionable human rights records.
Speaker 4:My name is Giorgi Gogia. I'm Associate Director of the European Central Asia Division at Human Rights Watch. I have been doing it for well over two decades now, and I have been working on Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia.
Speaker 1:And today we're talking about Azerbaijan. Human Rights Watch have expressed concerns about the UN's annual climate change meeting COP29, as it's called being held in Azerbaijan. What are your key problems with that event and where it's being held?
Speaker 4:Well, it is no doubt that we need, in order to combat climate change, we need ambitious, robust climate action, and this ambitious, robust climate action is possible only with strong civil society, independent civil society participation. And this is the third time in a row that COP takes place in the place where fundamental freedoms are severely curtailed. In Azerbaijan, we just released a major report, a document, just in the months leading up to COP29. Azerbaijan arrested dozens of civic and political activists, journalists, independent researchers on various bogus criminal charges and arbitrarily implements very repressive laws. That pushes independent civil society to the margins of the law and allows and heightens the risks for retaliatory prosecutions, which we have documented in the past few months.
Speaker 1:The thing is, I guess it's a bit difficult for the United Nations, but would you say the UN should not hold events in a country with questionable human rights records, ie Egypt, for example, as it did with COP a couple of years ago, or Azerbaijan? No?
Speaker 4:I would not go as far as not to hold the events, but use those events to make sure that host countries respect fundamental human rights, whether it's in choosing the site or with ensuring that the host country agreements has very specific human rights guarantees that allows for independent civil society, local or international, to freely, independently participate in this important event.
Speaker 4:It's not about where it is held, but it's about how it is held, and it is possible because Azerbaijan has this very. You know, it strives to be an international player with global standing, to be an international player with global standing, it strives to attract international attention and it wants to host such events, and there's nothing wrong with that. The important thing is that you know, if you want to play in that league, you have to observe the fundamental rights, you have to observe the rules of the game and unfortunately, azerbaijan yet again is failing. And I'm saying yet again is failing. And I'm saying yet again because this is not the first time Azerbaijan is hosting these mega events. You know it started from Eurovision Song Contest in 2012. It moved to European Games, which Azerbaijan invented in 2016, and, you know, invited every single delegation and every single member and paid for them. Then you know Formula One, and now we've seen the unprecedented global event which it wants to use to whitewash its international human rights image. But it should not be allowed to do this.
Speaker 1:And you've got particular concerns about which the UN does traditionally have when it's having a big event in a member state a host country agreement. The UN's not published this agreement, but you've seen it.
Speaker 4:First of all, you're right, it has not been published before, unless somebody obtained it and published it. It should not fall on civil society to publish those host country agreements. They should be public and the UN should be making them public the past ones and the current ones and future ones because it's a really critical document that allows that kind of spells out the rules of the game. And the current host country agreement, for example, for instance, says that the wild conference participants shall enjoy immunity for legal process in respect for words spoken or written and any act performed by them. But the separate clause of the same agreement requires that they respect Azerbaijani laws and not interfere in the internal affairs of Azerbaijan. There's no clarity in the agreement about what actions could constitute interference with Azerbaijan's internal affairs and whether Azerbaijan's laws apply in the UN-run conference zone.
Speaker 1:I see what you mean. I mean that does look like a big loophole in the host country agreement. What have you observed in the previous two, if anything, the COP28, cop27, because we had the United Arab Emirates last year and then Egypt the year before? These are countries which Human Rights Watch also has big concerns about.
Speaker 4:I wouldn't like to compare the countries.
Speaker 4:First of all, I'm not maybe best qualified to talk about the human rights issues in UAE or in Egypt, but there were similar concerns in terms of freedom of expression, assembly association in those.
Speaker 4:But there were similar concerns in terms of freedom of expression, assembly association in those countries. There were kind of politically motivating imprisonment as well. But again, it's one event where kind of you need to ensure that local and international human rights groups, civil society, climate groups should be able to freely exercise the fundamental rights and unfortunately, this is not something that is guaranteed in Azerbaijan. It's flouted routinely, at least for local groups. In last year, for example, in 2023, there were two protests in Azerbaijan on smaller climate-related issues like environment let's say not even call them climate, environment-related issues when residents of a local village protested the water shortage and dam building because of the mining in their village and Azerbaijan not only heavy-handedly responded to them and the rest of the dozens, but for weeks they've isolated the village. They kind of deployed heavy security, they did not let any journalists in or out of the village and they basically crushed dissent in this kind of very heavy-handed response heavy-handed response.
Speaker 1:I sense that your biggest concern is maybe not so much for international non-governmental organizations who may go to COP29. That may all look well and good, but that for local groups who really want to be involved and bring their own specialist, very important local knowledge that they could be at risk.
Speaker 4:That's a very good observation, imogen, but I would not again. It's not only the local groups. For example, you know just recently, azerbaijan is very retaliatory when it comes to critical criticism. It recently, weeks ago, sanctioned and imposed bans on over 70 MPs from the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly who voted for the critical resolution against Azerbaijan. And the response from the government against 76 European members of parliament was, you know, the ban for their access and unless they restore the voting rights of Azerbaijan in the Council of the Parliamentary Assembly. That's how it responds to international criticism, that's how it reacts to it. And just if it can do this to international MPs, to international bodies that it aspires to be part of, just imagine what it can do to its local human rights groups that it has been decimating for decades now and they're on the path of extinction just because of continuous arrests as well as arbitrary implementation of these extremely repressive laws that make legitimate human rights work nearly impossible.
Speaker 1:And for human rights activists, NGOs, who are packing their bags to go to Azerbaijan to COP29, do you have any practical advice for them?
Speaker 4:I think that you know I don't know whether I should go publicly about it, but there should be a word that you know this is a country that has used digital surveillance in the past. Azerbaijan is one of the countries that has used spyware to monitor phones and laptops of independent journalists, local independent groups leaders. So I think they should anticipate some surveillance. You know, they should try to look out and see if there's, you know, the local groups that need help, that need visibility. I think it would be really important to engage with them and to make sure that these people are not forgotten, that these people are heard and their voices are heard and their stories are told.
Speaker 1:What could the UN do more, then, to protect NGOs, human rights groups, at COP29?
Speaker 4:Well, there are a number of things that UN should be doing. First of all, they need to, besides what we've discussed about the publishing the host country agreement and ensuring that you know, the host country agreements include concrete human rights provisions, the guarantees for local international civil society media to participate freely in the COP event. They should also engage with the Azerbaijani government to ensure that diverse and inclusive civil society participate at COP 29 Kalamit talks. The premises should be inclusive, accessible to all and observers, including international civil society activists, academia, journalists, groups, individuals. They should be able, those who are critical of the government should have access to the negotiations and be able to protest and express their position. Really, dozens have been arrested in the months leading to COP29, including 16 journalists and other civil society activists, ngo leaders, and there is time for Azerbaijan still to set the record right and they should be releasing them, and UN should be engaging with Azerbaijan to ensure that it does so, because it's still time for this COP to go right and for it to go right.
Speaker 4:All these people who are unjustly in prison, including several outstanding activists like Anar Mahmadli, who is a longtime veteran human right defender in the country. In the past, he has been arrested and European court has found his arrest politically motivated, and currently he was arrested weeks after he founded Climate of Justice initiative that was intended to reuse this media limelight on Azerbaijan during COP 29 to call for abusive human rights record. He himself has been arrested. He should be released. Now is the time for UNFCCC, its member states, for international partners of Azerbaijan, to insist for their release, because there is still time. This COP29 can still go right.
Speaker 1:And that brings us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva. My thanks to Gheorghe Gogia of Human Rights Watch, and to Mahmoud Mouna, juliet Tuma and Matthew Teller. I'm Imogen Folks. Join us next time on Inside Geneva when we'll be bringing you a special episode from the United Nations in New York. A reminder you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a Swiss Info production. You can email us on insidegeneva at swissinfoch and subscribe to us and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Check out our previous episodes how the International Red Cross unites prisoners of war with their families, or why survivors of human rights violations turn to the UN in Geneva for justice. I'm Imogen Folks. Thanks again for listening.
