Inside Geneva: Myanmar, women and justice

On Inside Geneva this week, we look at women fighting for justice.

In 2017, Myanmar’s military launched an assault on the Rohingya population. Almost a million were displaced, there were reports of horrific violations: rape, the murder of children, including babies.

“The accounts that affected me most are those of children. Now I’m a grandfather, I sit there and listen and I think of my own kids when they were young and my grandkids now. How can you not?,” says Chris Sidoti from the Myanmar fact-finding mission.

The UN investigators who documented the evidence were shocked, but feared there would be no accountability.

“They asked me for justice and when I asked them 'why are you here, why have you been waiting all day in the camps', many of them were not able to walk, they had not eaten and they wanted justice. And at that time, I really thought it would not be possible for justice to come,” says Antonia Mulvey from Legal Action Worldwide.

But now, almost a decade later, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) is hearing a case of genocide against Myanmar.

“To see now, action in the ICJ: I still know how many years it’s going to take. I still know that the Myanmar butchers who are responsible for what happened may never individually be brought to justice. But I certainly live in hope that one day they will,” says Sidoti.

Mulvey is at the ICJ, supporting women who are testifying about what happened. “If you were in that court, I can assure you, international law is alive and it is fighting very hard,” she says.

Join host Imogen Foulkes on Inside Geneva.

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Host: Imogen Foulkes
Production assitant: Claire-Marie Germain
Distribution: Sara Pasino
Marketing: Xin Zhang

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:58

This is Inside Geneva. I'm your host, Imogen Folks, and this is a production from SwissInfo, the international public media company of Switzerland. In today's program.

SPEAKER_09 1:15

For a year now, in this bleak landscape, the Rehenja have been suffering. Giving harrowing accounts of the brutality they say they suffered at the hands of the Myanmar military.

SPEAKER_08 1:27

I still know that the Myanmar butchers who are responsible for what happened may never individually be brought to justice, but I certainly live in hope that one day they will.

SPEAKER_11 1:53

And um then she was she was gang raped.

SPEAKER_04 1:56

Is this possible? How can human beings do such horrible things to other human beings?

SPEAKER_02 2:02

They asked me for justice, and when I asked them, why are you here? Why have you been waiting all day in the camps? Many of them weren't able to walk, they'd not eaten, and they wanted justice. And at that time I really thought, how would it be possible for justice to come?

SPEAKER_01 2:16

The UN's highest court is hearing a genocide case against Myanmar. The military is accused of carrying out a campaign of mass killings and human rights abuses against Rohingya Muslims.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

If you were in that court, I can assure you international law is alive and it is fighting very hard.

SPEAKER_03 2:41

And today, continuing our focus on women this month, we're going to look at the charges of genocide against Myanmar brought by the Gambia at the International Court of Justice. The case revolves around Myanmar's brutal military operation in 2017, in which up to a million Rohingya Muslims were driven out of their homes, their villages were burnt, there were widespread reports of rape, murder, and torture. Antonia Mulvey of the Geneva-based organization Legal Action Worldwide is supporting Rohingya women in the case.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

It's the first case before the ICJ in more than a decade. And let's be honest and clear, this is comes at a time where international law is under attack, international justice institutions are under attack. So I think it's very important for a number of factors. The world that we live in right now is sending a message that the UN highest court in the world is there here in case of genocide. A very strong message for victims and survivors. And importantly, the decision for this case will impact future genocide cases at the ICJ.

SPEAKER_11 3:57

The types of abuses that we heard that had been visited upon Rohingya refugees are among the worst kind of abuses that had ever heard about as journalists.

Evidence From The UN Mission

SPEAKER_00 4:09

The next morning, they were taken outside the village where they watched their neighbors dig a shallow grave. Witnesses say they were shot and then piled into the makeshift graves, some still moving.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

Before we hear that in-depth interview with Antonia, let's remember that one of the factors that spurred the Gambia to launch this case was the horrific evidence gathered by the UN's own fact-finding mission to Myanmar. Chris Siddotti led that mission. I interviewed him for inside Geneva some years later, and it was clear that what he saw and heard during that mission will stay with him forever.

SPEAKER_08 4:49

We all had the experience of sitting and talking face to face with victims and witnesses of some of the most serious human rights atrocities you could imagine. The the accounts that perhaps affect me most are are those of children. And we talk to a lot of kids. Those experiences that they tell us that we're privileged to hear stay with you. They don't get forgotten.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

She spent weeks in Rohingya refugee camps in Bangladesh interviewing survivors. At first, she couldn't quite believe what she was hearing.

SPEAKER_04 5:36

I thought to myself, is this possible? How can human beings can do such horrible things to other human beings? And stories that do stays with you, of course, like now some years has passed by that experience. I had to still remember. You know, most of my interaction and interviews with victims and witnesses were with people that I suffered witness the killing of one or more family, family members. And I remember, you know, this husband telling me being just there in their house with his wife, uh, you know, doing just ordinary things. His wife was cooking rice. And then, you know, the routine would just interrupt by the sound of the ancient outside. And it was just a split of seconds that make the husband going outside the door with a bullet shot straight in the chest of his wife and died in front of his eyes. And you know, you're there, at least in the story, and he tells me, you know, I couldn't even comfort them in the last minutes of your life, and that's just one story of the thousand horrible stories that we collected in the case. I'm a mother myself, and hearing the experience of mothers whose baby have been taken from their home from their chest while they're speeding, throw them into the pits. Like it's it's incredible. But you ask me, do you know, do these stories affect you, have an impact on you? I think they do. But it's true that uh, you know, you also this is your job, and uh, you know, you're trying to embrace your professionality the best you can.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

For both Chris Sudhoti and Ilaria Charla, it's crucial that the evidence they gathered actually achieves something.

SPEAKER_08 7:15

We can guarantee that the record will be written, that the evidence that they give to us will contribute to presenting the entire picture of what occurred and preserving it historically. And we hope that in addition, there will be possibilities of international justice. And that their story may contribute to the development of a picture that causes the international community. Um can I be blunt, the bloody world get off its ass and do something.

SPEAKER_06 7:45

We did not bring this case lightly. We brought this case after reviewing credible reports of the most brutal and vicious violations imaginable inflicted upon a vulnerable group that had been dehumanized and persecuted for many years. We received and carefully examined the Meticulus reports of the United Nations fact-finding mission.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

Well, perhaps Chris's wish is now coming true. The International Court of Justice has begun hearing the case against Myanmar, and among those giving evidence is Salma, who has traveled from the refugee camp in Bangladesh in her search for justice.

SPEAKER_07 8:37

Boys, men, girls, and women were raped. We were subjected to horrific atrocities. Even though I was a married woman, I was not spared from sexual abuse and torture. Young children were thrown in the fire.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Like Chris and Ilaria, Antonia too was almost 10 years ago part of a UN human rights investigation on Myanmar.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

So my role goes back actually to 2016, where I was asked to investigate and to look at human rights violations against ethnic minorities in Myanmar for the first human rights council report. At that time, I already saw a pattern of sexual violence by the Myanmar military, often then known as the Tatmador. This is a pattern of conduct that they have had for decades, primarily targeting women and girls, but also men and boys and transgender. In 2017, I was appointed by the Human Rights Council to investigate crimes that had taken place and was deployed to on the Myanmar-Bangladesh border just after the 25th of August when the main military operations were taking place against the Rohingya. My file was to investigate crimes of sexual violence and crimes against children. I interviewed maybe 150 women and children, boys and girls, but primarily women and girls, and listened to their stories, and so many of them asked me, they asked me for justice. And when I asked them why are you here, why have you been waiting all day in the camps? Many of them weren't able to walk, they'd not eaten, they had no shelter, and they wanted justice. And at that time I really thought, how would it be possible for justice to come about? When I left as a UN investigator in 2018 at Legal Action Worldwide, decided that we should be assisting Rohingya victims and survivors in their quest for international justice.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

Take us back then to when you were in those refugee camps interviewing survivors. You already knew, as you said, this was this kind of sexual violence had been inflicted for for years. But still, when you heard the accounts, what was your reaction as a as a woman?

SPEAKER_02 11:28

You know, I I have four children, and my son at the time was three months old. It was a very difficult decision to leave him. And in fact, all of my children were under age seven and below at the time. So it was particularly difficult to not only to leave them, but then to to listen to these stories of the targeted killing of children. These weren't it was not by accident, no. They singled out children, babies, toddlers, uh, they killed them, they threw them into the fire, they drowned them. But also listening to women, to mothers who described being raped and gang raped and having their children killed in front of them, or their children watching this. So I have to say it w it it was very emotionally difficult to it's difficult to listen to these stories, but listen to these stories we we must, because they are there to tell some of the most painful moments of their lives. And and our job, or I I believe my job as as an international law and investigator is to ensure that the world hears these stories and that we don't turn away. And we assist them, particularly this group of people who are mainly illiterate, they can't read or even write, um, to assist them to help them to for the world not to forget, for them to seek justice for what's happened to them and their families. So it's profoundly moving, and that's why it was so I think emotionally and intellectually, but to sit in the court again to listen to the stories that I had taken, not only as you're an investigator, but then now representing victims and survivors, you think, gosh, yes, you know, we we can see justice can happen, particularly for women and girls.

SPEAKER_03 13:14

So it's it's 10 years basically. Now we're at the the International Court of Justice. Was this what you had foreseen a decade ago? Or do you just think, no, at least I need to write this down and say this happened?

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Uh I think I was saying that so sometimes in life it's really good to be wrong. And I was definitely wrong when I remember sitting in those camps thinking, I don't just can't think that they're not going to get justice, they're not gonna get the justice that they deserve. There's no there's no foreseeable legal pathway for them. And it is incredible to to see that now you have these different justice processes. And of course, it's justice is much more than just being in the court. We we know that, but it is an important and a very symbolic moment and a legally powerful moment in time as well.

SPEAKER_03 14:10

It must be hard for the survivors of this kind of violence, though, to come all the way to The Hague and testify and almost have to relive what happened to them.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

I was amazed when I was um when I have worked and and with these victims and survivors of sexual violence, the courage that they show in talking about what has happened to them. And often when you ask them why, they will say because frequently what's happened to their to their family members. So most of survivors talk about that. Now I have to say that people just didn't happen to be able to turn up into The Hague. We've worked with them for years and years and years to prepare for this moment, and those that have the courage to be able to travel to The Hague, and we have to remember that these people were not able to move freely in Myanmar, they can't move freely in Bangladesh, they're in camps. They've never got in a plane before. They didn't know, they don't, they've never put a seatbelt on in a car before. Every single element that we take for granted is new for them. And then you go to this huge, incredible, it is incredible, court has um it's very grand. You feel it yourself when you go in there. And I don't think anything can quite prepare you for when you walk into that International Court of Justice, but they they were amazing. And particularly women who have lived in a patriarchal society. Let's also remember that women in Myanmar and also the Rohingya now and Bangladesh, they're not able to leave their homes. So many of them will never have left that small shelter which might be, you know, a few metres. This has got so many extraordinary elements to it. And I think one of the reasons I fought for them so hard is because their bravery and courage is quite inspirational, and I think we need that inspiration right now in the world that we are in, and that should should guide us.

From Camps To Courtroom Testimony

SPEAKER_03 16:12

Obviously, your primary concern is justice for the people you are accompanying to The Hague, but this case could be precedent-setting, could have wider ramifications. There are other possible genocide cases before the ICJ.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Yes, absolutely. So this case is the first genocide case in more than a decade. This case is the first time in the court told us more than 14 years that you've had witnesses give in-person evidence. The first time that we've had victims delegation, which included men, women and transgender survivors of sexual violence. I I mention all of this because all of these are our first and we hope will contribute towards a positive decision of genocide. And also it's important to note Myanmar's argument, which in summary is that this was a counter-insurgency operation. They are terrorists, and this is what we had to do. This included men, it included women, and it could include children, and therefore they were legitimate targets. The rest of the evidence was was not credible, including UN fact-finding missions and witness statements. So indeed, if we look at the cases that are before the International Court of Justice, it will have a significant impact for them. And of course, the the extent to that will have to wait until a decision is made by the International Court of Justice. But it will definitely include an impact on the South Africa versus Israel genocide case.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

There's also the aspect of arguing that this kind of organized sexual violence is an aspect of genocide.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Yes. So the sexual violence aspect of the genocide case was a critical part. Two parts actually, if we look at this. First of all, the actus reus of genocide. So mass rapes took place, mass gang rapes took place, sexual enslavement took place, and we know from case law that this now constitutes important elements of acts of genocide. But it was also, it's also the way that they carried it out. So, first of all, as we know, sexual violence, you can never have a defense argument that it was part of a terrorist operation. But let's not forget it was also the brutal way in which they carried out the sexual violence in public, in front of family members. They mutilated uh individuals whilst they raped them. They told them that we will kill you by raping you. So it was what they said when they committed the sexual violence, the brutality of it, the public nature of it. They also targeted particularly girls and women of reproductive age, very young girls, and gang rape as well. What's the purpose of that? Well, one of them is that we saw a very high rate of women and girls giving birth the year after the clearance operations, all part of the genocidal intent of the Myanmar military, and knowing that they had very limited as well medical facilities from within Myanmar and within Bangladesh. Many of them died from the sexual violence and from trying to leave Myanmar and into traversing into Bangladesh. And therefore, having witnesses that will talk about, and here in this case we had NJ, she gave evidence at the court about being gang raped and the killing of her father, her husband, and her son was very, very important. And the judges listened very keenly to this. Another witness, MS, described how the last time he saw his wife and his children, his wife and children were taken in to one of the huts. In those huts, what happened to them was that uh women and girls and children were raped, gang raped, and they were killed, and also those huts were set alight.

SPEAKER_03 20:26

If the ICJ finds in favour of Gambia and against Myanmar, what will be the consequences for Myanmar?

Sexual Violence As Genocide Proof

SPEAKER_02 20:36

Firstly, the court, uh well, let's go back for a moment in the in the court actually and look up and let's think about what the agent for the representative of Myanmar said. He said this will be a stain on our collective conscience of Myanmar. When the Gambia agent, the wonderful Minister Jallo, opened up, he said, No, the stain is yours, Myanmar, because you have committed genocide. So, firstly, Myanmar has stood up in the court and has put up a defense. We should not underestimate that, that countries are violating international law, but they do not want to be found liable for genocide. This is really important. So this in of itself will be very important. Then the court can order, and Gambia has requested a number of things. Number one, they have requested for Rohingya to be recognized, to be given citizenship. They can order to have their land and property back or inform compensation. They can order reparations in the form of compensation. They can order for domestic investigations and prosecutions to take place. Often the question we hear is well, you know, Myanmar will not comply with that. They didn't comply with the provisional measures. That's potentially true. But let's not forget that things can change overnight. We saw what happened with Syria. No one was expecting the Assad regime to fall. And therefore, this judgment is very important because it can be implemented in the future. And also in the region, we've seen countries potentially normalizing relationships. Well, when you have the highest court in the world say that this state has committed genocide, this will also should impact and can be utilized for how trade is happening, sanctions are happening, or normalizing of relationships.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

And given that a key part of this case is the commission of sexual violence, in an overall case that is is a charge of genocide, what will this mean for women in conflict?

SPEAKER_02 22:38

I think um this case I hope has shown that if you work with women, if you assist them to move from victims to survivors to advocates. They can have the courage to be present in the court to listen to what happened and they can give testimony in the court. And I want to tell you that when I saw NJ afterwards, after she talked about what happened to her, the gang rate that she suffered, her face was luminous. She felt relieved. She had done something huge for herself. And this is massive. We should be shifting this stigma. It's not their stigma, it's to those who've perpetrated these crimes. There also be a recognition, again, that sexual violence can constitute genocide. This is not the first time we've seen this in international court. Of course, we saw the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia and Rwanda. But it's very important that that's be recognized at the highest court in the world. So I think there's multiple implications for it.

What An ICJ Ruling Changes

SPEAKER_03 23:38

One thing that strikes me is that we're seeing a bit of a rowing away from institutions like the International Criminal Court and the International Court of Justice. The United States, for example, is sanctioning judges on the International Criminal Court. Do you think that these institutions still have the weight they had maybe 20 years ago, even 10 years ago?

SPEAKER_02 24:04

That's a good question. I think the International Court of Justice has more weight than it had 20 years ago because we've seen multiple cases being taken by states, and we're seeing um decisions being made by the International Court of Justice issuing of provisional measures that are very important and advisory opinions that are being issued. So I think it's a very it it still retains its importance. It's still the highest cohort in the world when the vast majority of states have accepted its role. Having said that, also national courts should be playing a very important role, particularly in Europe, to investigate and prosecute international crimes, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide and upholding international humanitarian law is a very important role that they can and should be taking. It's not only, we shouldn't only be leaving it to international courts right now.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

For you personally, though, this is hard work and harrowing work. What motivates you, especially when we see this drift away from some of these international norms and standards?

SPEAKER_02 25:20

You know, having spent three weeks just sitting in the court in The Hague, um I thought, what a way to start 2026 when things are really, really bleak and we do question ourselves about international law. If you were in that court, I can assure you, international law is alive and it is fighting very hard, and particularly for I felt to put forward survivors and particularly survivors of sexual violence. And, you know, we as an international lawyer, I'm sitting here in Geneva, I can't allow myself that despair. I don't have that right. We need to be standing up and fighting for those who don't have that ability to travel, to be able to speak out. And I think what we can see is that when states are ready to speak out, and there are some states that are ready to speak out, and when the UN works with them, collecting meticulous evidence and information in reports, and when frontline organizations work with victims and survivors and also bring out reports, you can see change happen. We cannot give up. In fact, you know what? We have to keep fighting harder and more strategically. And I think that's where we need to be looking at for the next five years and beyond.

SPEAKER_06 26:33

Mr. President, Honourable Judges, these oral hearings come at a time in which the fundamental principles of international law, as ensigned in the UN Charter, are under stress and threat.

SPEAKER_10 26:46

After years of violence, exile, and denial, the Rohingya story is finally being told before judges at the International Court of Justice.

SPEAKER_06 26:54

Many have lost faith in the promise of international law. And many are looking at this case to see if the Genocide Convention is more than just words on paper.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

Well, the ruling at the International Court of Justice is expected towards the end of this year. It's a case that will likely have ramifications for other cases involving possible genocide, including South Africa's case against Israel over Gaza. Chris Sidotti, who is now a member of the UN Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, is heartened that what happened in Myanmar is now finally before the world's highest court.

SPEAKER_08 27:41

Investigations underway in the International Criminal Court. I still know how many years it's going to take. But I certainly live in hope that one day they will.

SPEAKER_03 27:59

Ilaria Charla shares that hope.

Faith In International Courts

SPEAKER_04 28:01

I think uh, you know, we we're nothing without hope. And these people cannot turn to their own jurisdiction, they cannot seek remedies in their own country. So maybe yes, the UN is they're only open sometimes in some cases. I mean, and UN, you know, has been there for a long time. Uh is possibly the best thing we came up with as an international community. I think it's important to have hope, you know. Who are we as a human race if we don't have hope?

SPEAKER_03 28:28

Hope and above all, determination to get justice is what has inspired the women now bravely testifying at the ICJ. Women like Salma.

SPEAKER_07 28:39

I'll be sad again. Our parents and grandparents have become refugees three times before us. They did not know how to seek justice because they were not informed enough. This time we will not return without justice. May we get our justice this time.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

And that brings us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva. I hope you were inspired as I was by the sheer courage of the Rohingya women who have traveled to the International Court of Justice and by the dedication of the lawyers and human rights investigators supporting them. Next time on Inside Geneva, we'll be looking at women in the peace process. Why are they so often left out? Especially when the men seem nowadays at least to be so very bad at resolving conflict.

SPEAKER_05 29:33

Women are completely absent in kind of high-level politics at the moment, and this high-level peacemaking. However, this is the visible part, and our kind of focus has been so much on Trump. I think he has really kind of you know taken the focus away from all the other things that are still happening. So women are still working for peace every day in different conflict contexts.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

That's out on March 31st. Do join us then.