Inside Geneva’s Summer Profiles: Philippe Stoll

Philippe Stoll, the Red Cross’s ‘techplomat’, is Inside Geneva’s Summer Profile this week.

“I studied economics and I think I could have been a banker or something like that. A good Swiss indeed! But my mother was a volunteer at the Red Cross, and I think she influenced me a lot about maybe being human or taking care of humans,” he says. 

He’s helping the International Committee of the Red Cross
(ICRC) develop a new digital emblem to warn cyber warriors against attacking protected structures like hospital software, or confidential data.

“Cyber attacks are increasingly carried out by machines. It’s a machine talking to another machine, and this certificate is a way to identify something that the machine will understand and not attack.”

Such attacks are already happening.

“The ICRC suffered from a cyber attack in 2022. It’s not a question of if, it’s more question of when. We know that the ICRC has access to information that is highly interesting for state or non state armed groups,” says Stoll.

And they can cause enormous harm,

“[such as] the distress of people not being able to get the information online because it was hacked or the fact that some information might put your family or you at risk because you belong to a tribe or clan that is under attack.”

Join host Imogen Foulkes for an in-depth discussion – how do we uphold the Geneva Conventions in 21st-century wars?

Get in touch!

• Email us at insidegeneva@swissinfo.ch
• Twitter: @ImogenFoulkes and @swissinfo_en

Thank you for listening! If you like what we do, please leave a review or subscribe to our newsletter. 

For more stories on the international Geneva please visit www.swissinfo.ch/

Host: Imogen Foulkes
Production assitant: Claire-Marie Germain
Distribution: Sara Pasino
Marketing: Xin Zhang

Transcript

Why War Needs New Protection

SPEAKER_02 0:00

SwissInfo podcasts. This is inside Geneva. I'm your host, Imogen Folkes, and this is a production from SwissInfo, the international public media company of Switzerland.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

In today's programme, I studied economics, and I think I could have been a banker or something like that. Good Swiss indeed. But my mother was a volunteer at the Red Cross, and I think she influenced me a lot of maybe being human or taking care of humans.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

There are currently around 130 armed conflicts happening across the world. And as global tensions arise, we are witnessing a disregard for the rules of war agreed upon by nations to protect humanity during war.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Four ambulance workers and two patients have been killed in Gaza following an airstrike.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

And this dimension for me is very worrying.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

But we're also, in a way, going to profile one of the most recognizable iconic symbols in the world, the Red Cross emblem itself.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Emblems of humanity are symbols of protection under international humanitarian law. Globally, they signify protection and life-saving work during armed conflicts.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

It's a symbol of okay, there is a human in the midst of war, of awful situation. There are people who are looking at this emblem because they know maybe their family will be found, or maybe they will get medical treatment.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Seeing them tells armies this is a hospital, this is an ambulance, they're protected under international law and must not be attacked. But that's a physical sign attached to a building or vehicle. What happens when it's not a physical entity, but a computer system containing sensitive data, or software running life-saving hospital equipment that's being attacked?

SPEAKER_00 3:03

The fact that cyber attacks are more and more done by machine, we are talking about a machine talking to another machine. And this certificate is a way to identify something that the machine will understand and not attack. And what are the consequences? The fact that some information might put your family or you at risk because you belong to a tribe or clan that is under uh attack.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Well, all that and more is what we're going to explore in this episode. Because the International Committee, the Red Cross, the guardian of the Geneva Conventions, is developing a digital emblem. And in Geneva this month it gathered together aid workers, military representatives, diplomats, and big tech to discuss progress. I caught up with Red Cross Techplomacy Representative

Philippe Stoll’s Path To The ICRC

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Philippe Stoll. He's an expert in technology and conflict.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Hi, my name is Philippe Stoll, and I've been working in the field of humanitarian action, digital technologies, even a bit of art for the last 30 years. I'm Swiss. I grew up uh in the outskirts of Geneva, in Lyon. But I've studied in Geneva and I was always surrounded by this international environment, which I was always fascinated about.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

So you wanted to work in a humanitarian organization?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yes, and there was a funny story. Uh I studied economics, and I think I could have been a banker or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Good Swiss?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Uh good Swiss indeed. Uh but my mother was a volunteer at the Red Cross, and I think she influenced me a lot of maybe being human or taking care of humans. And that's why during my studies I could do my master's thesis on the ICRC. This was in 1896, so was trying to understand in a course on human resources the question of management of cultural differences in an ICRC office. And this is how it all started.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

And then you moved to the International Committee of the Red Cross. Tell me how that was. Was the reality of working for them how you imagined?

SPEAKER_00 5:18

I don't think I had a lot of imagination and therefore it was easy to face the reality because it's something where I don't think you can imagine what it is. It's so complex. Each context is different, each day is different. One day you visit a prisoner, the following day you help a family to get reunited with the lost children. The next day you will spend your day in an office for hours writing a report, which is not super sexy. Or the following day you do distribute food. So the idea of having something which is never the same day is something interesting. And it's also something where you are diving really deep into societies, into cultures that you don't know, and this is fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Tell me then about your postings, where you went, what what stands out for you, maybe maybe good and bad.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

I I don't know. I forgot the bad part, most probably. But I I think that the one thing that I that I really care and I really nurture as something that was what I wanted to be and what I hope I am is this human dimension. There are many things you can try to solve which are super complex that go beyond you. But being nice with others is what comes back to you. So I've been in different positions, different places, such as the north of the West Bank, Sierra Leone, India. I did some short mission in Afghanistan, in uh Ukraine, in Myanmar, in the Philippines, etc. And it's about trying to bring the little hope of humanity. Sounds very strange sometimes, it's very small, but trying to understand the people, trying to be nice with them, potentially finding a small solution to a big problem is better than searching for big solutions to a problem that you would never

Dehumanisation And Eroding Respect

SPEAKER_00 7:10

be able to solve.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Well, that I mean some of these places, you talk about the West Bank, of course you can't solve it. I'm just wondering, working there, when you see that part of the world now, does that make you feel a bit, what's this all for?

SPEAKER_00 7:26

There is one thing I'm concerned, not only by this region, but in general around the world, is this question of the growing deshumanization of people. The fact that human life is not as respected as it used to be, the fact that it seems to be okay to kill people, and this dimension for me is very worrying. The discourse of powerful people, speaking about a country, speaking about a population, speaking about a type of population is something that I'm worrying because this gives example to the others who are maybe less in power, but they still have power. And this dimension is very worrying. The other part is also I'm I'm so much aware of what I can bring in general. So it's also I'm not expecting to bring world peace, I'm who I am, and I try to do what I can do the best way I can, and that's what will for me make a small difference.

What The Physical Emblem Signals

SPEAKER_02 8:19

We're here today to actually talk about the emblem. Let's talk about the original one, the one that's on bibs that you wear, they're on your vehicles, they're on hospitals. How do you feel it the physical traditional emblem is respected these days?

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Um I think there is still beyond the fact that it protects people, and I think right now in a world where the notion of trust is put in question, and the fact that people don't always believe or think the way you imagine they were thinking, it's becoming maybe something where we have to be much more careful. I also like the emblem for what it stands for. It's a symbol of hope. It's a symbol of there is a human in the midst of war, of awful situation. There are people who are looking at this emblem because they know maybe their family will be found, or maybe they will get medical treatment. And I look at it more from that perspective than for myself. We know that the question of geopolitical balance, violence, etc., is is is increasing the the fragility of such a symbol, but I still want to look at it from the other perspective, from a people who sees for the first time after a few weeks an ICRC land cruiser or National Red Cross staff coming to bring them a letter. So this is what matters to me.

Why A Digital Emblem Now

SPEAKER_02 9:56

I'm just gonna explain to our listeners where we are. We are at CERN, Geneva's high-tech scientific exploratory place, and you've been here presenting a new kind of emblem, which is a digital emblem. Of course, we have seen new forms of warfare, particularly since 2022. But maybe explain first what is a digital emblem and then why do we need it?

SPEAKER_00 10:21

I will start with the why we need it, if you may allow me. One thing that matters is is to try, and I think the IECRC has been doing it for 160 years, is to adapt to the evolution of warfare, to adapt to the needs of people. Hundred years ago, the psychosocial support was not existing. Now it is there, it's uh it's part of the work we do. So the same way we were looking at how warfare was evolving. More and more digital technologies being bringed into the discussions or into the warfare. And then you had also cyber attacks. This is not new. We rem uh some people might remember that there was already cyber attacks in the 90s, in the 2000s, etc. So we knew that warfare will evolve in that direction. And instead of just looking at things, we were wondering how we could find a solution to mark servers, websites, data that belong to us, so that similarly to a hospital where we put a red cross, we put a kind of a symbol, a red cross, a virtual red cross, on the server to say to those who want to attack, this is a red cross belonging and don't attack it. It doesn't prevent them from doing it.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

Well, neither does the physical emblem now.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Exactly. You know, you can have an emblem on an ambulance, you can shoot at it. So the idea is to try to also reverse the responsibility on the attackers, and they won't be able to say, ah, I didn't know. No, you have a certificate, you have something. So from a technical perspective, those who will conduct cyber attack will understand that they are putting their fingers into something which belongs to the Red Cross. And I think this is something important because we know that the physical protection, having food, having shelter, having uh medical assistance is important. But having a cyber protection is also as important as that. I would hate that if I give my data to an organization to get food, that this data appears somewhere else, used by someone who has maybe less good intention than the Red Cross. So the whole story is about that. It's not yet finalized, but it's an interesting solution because it starts a debate.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Let's take that one step further. You're talking about stuff that's Red Cross property. This emblem, if I understand it right, can be used on things which are protected under international law. The software that keeps a hospital's respirators running, the software that keeps a water pumping station going, it can be used on things like that.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

If it is within the work or belonging to the Red Cross, Red Crescent movement, or if it's medical units of armies, those who are allowed to use today the physical emblem. Now, what is interesting is that we are opening a door to other potentially protective emblems. We have heard uh today about the blue shield, which is also protection of cultural goods. Why not having something for critical infrastructure, so nuclear power plants, dams, etc.? But at least we are trying to push boundaries, we are trying to bring people around the table, and for me it's also something quite refreshing, if I can use this word, to see that we have the tech sector, we have legislators, we have standard authorities, we have states, but we have also potentially hackers, hacker group with whom we have to discuss. And at the basis of the work of the ICRC, it's about discussing with everyone and bringing everyone around the table, maybe not finding the perfect solution, but at least starting this discussion is already key so that we move towards better protection in the cyberspace.

How Machines Detect Protected Systems

SPEAKER_02 14:41

For the non-geeks among our audience, let me just ask you what might seem a silly question to you, but how is this digital emblem gonna be different from, say, one of these constantly updated maps that the military has with GPS markings that say that's a hospital, that's a water desalination plant, that's a school. How is the digital emblem different?

SPEAKER_00 15:10

It's not so different. The idea is to have a system which is quite decentralized, which is agile enough that if there is a change, let's say today, if we have a building which is our office and we move the office, we remove the Red Cross. So the same way, if we have a server, we have something that is belonging to the movement, and we decide to move away because of whatever reasons, we need to have this capacity to change things. The idea is really something which is invisible to the human eye, that the machine recognizes it. There is still an operator behind to say, okay, I'm saying that this computer or this server belongs to us, so there is a human interaction. But the fact that cyber attacks are more and more, I won't call it automatized, but somehow done by machine, we are talking about a machine talking to another machine. And this certificate is a way to identify something that the machine will understand and not attack. And this is a bit why we want to go to standards.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

So, and let me see if I explain this right. You're basically talking about hack an attack, I think. And this could be done at the moment by a human hacking into uh a system. Increasingly, it could be done by a machine hacking into a system. The idea is that either the human or machine gets far enough into this system, then sees the emblem. I mean, this person just be sitting at home in their darkened room on their laptop, they see this emblem that ah, this is actually a protected system. Is that is that how it will work?

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Exactly. It's exactly that. I think the human doing only one attack per hour or something like that, it's it's the pass. It's in movies in the 80s, this has happened. Now it's it's at a it's huge quantities. And you generate a program that do the thing for you. So that's also why we are looking at a machine that can recognize. And this is why having the different interlocutors or sectors working together, which will allow to have machines, to have the standards, to have the something that is recognized. Today, all around the world, we know that the traffic light which is red, you stop. Why that? Because you have learned it and you you you own it.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Well, you might get killed if you don't.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yeah, or you might kill someone, by the way. So this is the same. So what right now is a bit abstract, but we are getting used to it. We will know that this is a sign. The computers themselves will know that this is a sign, and maybe one day these attacks will be avoided because the system, the standard will be said saying this is a protected server, this is a protected data.

When Cyber Harm Becomes Human Harm

SPEAKER_02 18:05

And we shouldn't underestimate the damage to real human life that a cyber attack on a health system or a water or a power system could do.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

This is correct, and this is a difficult part. Very often, when we speak about an earthquake, torture, hunger, bombing, even if you haven't lived in a context of a crisis or conflict, you understand it. There is a physical dimension. If I speak about cyber attack, it's so abstract that sometimes we have issues to understand the harm. But the distress of people not being capable to get their information online because it was hacked, the fact that some information might put your family or you at risk because you belong to a tribe or a clan that is under attack, the fact that your private information about your health is out, these are these elements which are less tangible, but it's also one of the work we are trying to do to try to understand that digital risks have real life consequences. And if we don't go there, the regulation will be very difficult.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Just one more slightly geeky question. Um, and and this is very much, I find, like typical of the International Committee of the Red Cross. You're gonna set up this emblem, somebody who's a cyber warrior is looking for targets. Oh, I could disable this, I'm in here, seize the emblem. Yeah, well, maybe I won't. The institution being targeted doesn't get to know they've been watched and potentially targeted. Why not? You've got this kind of anonymity going on.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

We start from the principle that we are a target. The ICRC suffered from a cyber attack in 2022. It's not a question of if, it's more a question of when. So we anticipate that. We know that the ICRC has access to information that are highly interesting for state, non-state armed groups. It's working in context that there is little information. So this is something we are aware. But this was already the past century where we had pouches, diplomatic immunities. Our physical archive in Geneva, they're under a protected international agreement that no one is allowed to get on that, to have access to that. So the same. We know that the information we have are interesting. Let's try to be proactive and build this emblem. So the responsibility is not anymore on us. No one will say, ah, you didn't do your work correctly. The responsibility is on the attackers. You did it on purpose and you knew that you are putting your feet or your fingers into something that is protected.

Winning Big Tech And Cyber Buy In

SPEAKER_02 21:00

How much buy-in do you have from big tech? I mean, Microsoft were here at this meeting and didn't see other ones. They are hugely, hugely powerful. Some of them have how shall I put this dual use? They do civilian IT, they do weapons. I mean, how really how much buy-in can because you need them, you need it to be standard.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Yes, correct. But again, how do you convince them by talking to them? So we start with one, two, three. We have other uh companies who are uh working with us that are super interested, they were not present today. It's also a physical event, so it means also bringing some people, it might be more complicated. But one thing that I've noticed compared to the work I've been doing around the world is that there is a super strong interest. Doesn't mean there is a buy-in, but at least that's the first step. When I'm going to tech events where there is no diplomacy, just tech. When I start to speak about the digital emblem, I see a two-second neural connection in the brain of my interlocutor. Just that it's an opportunity to speak about other things. If I come and I say, ah, let's speak about war, about neutrality. No one cares. If I start to speak with the digital emblem, I can speak about what it means to have a neutral organization in the cyberspace and therefore in the physical one. So it's a it's a long work. I'm not shying away from the fact that this won't happen overnight. But again, it's about speaking about it, it's engaging with those who don't want to listen to. The same way we did it in the field, speaking with states, non-state armed groups doesn't mean they will follow the rules, but at least they know.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Well that's interesting, isn't it? Because you have traditionally it is your role to speak to those who fight, whether it's a state army or whether it's a non-state actor. Now you've I I have seen ICRC delegates do this all over the world. They talk about what the Geneva Conventions are. These armies or non-state armed groups are gonna have their cyber warriors now. All the countries, they have it. What's your contact with them?

SPEAKER_00 23:28

We go to some events where some of them are present, and I can tell you it's it's not so different from the classic way of working. If you are in a country where you have a non-set arm group, but you have to start somewhere and you start to discuss, and the moment you have built enough trust, which takes sometimes time, many months, many years, you have to go through proxies, etc. It's the same in the cyberspace. So we have to start somewhere, and the fact that we are out and visible with the digital emblem is already a good starting point for our discussion.

Pushing Humanitarian Law Into Cyberspace

SPEAKER_02 24:06

You've been working really hard on this. You see this as the logical next step for using the emblem and its traditional status to uphold the Geneva Conventions, uphold international humanitarian law.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Yes. I think throughout history, war has evolved and the ICRC is pushing IHL to follow. There is one occurrence when a weapon was prohibited even before it was used. There's blinding lasers in the 80s or 70s. But we are we have a responsibility. People who are suffering from conflict, they look at us to try to push the boundaries. We try our best, it's not always successful, but we want to push the limits for better protection of civilians wherever they are, in the physical world, in the cyberspace. And this dimension is making our work fascinating, complex, but also sometimes daunting because we know that it's just a soft law. What happens if you don't follow the rules? That's another question, that's not the ICRC question. Our mandate is to try to push these limits. We try our best, and I think today's event is a demonstration that we can go a little bit further than what people think in trying to anticipate some of the risk of tomorrow.

Closing And How To Get In Touch

SPEAKER_02 25:42

And that brings us to the end of this edition of Inside Geneva. My thanks to Philippe Stahl and the ICRC for their time. We hope you found this episode interesting. Do write to us with your comments at insigeneva at swisinfo.ch. Coming up in the next few weeks on our summer profiles, we'll be talking to UN women about the consequences of cuts in aid funding on women and girls, and we'll hear from a pair of human rights defenders how to keep support for human rights alive when some of the most powerful nations on earth are pushing back. All that and more this summer on Inside Geneva. I'm Imogen folks. Thanks again for listening. A reminder, you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a SwissInfo production. You can email us on inside Geneva at Swisinfo.ch, and subscribe to us and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Check out our previous episodes, how the International Red Cross unites prisoners of war with their families, or why survivors of human rights violations turn to the UN in Geneva for justice. I'm Imogen Folks. Thanks again for listening.