First Class Counselors

Camp counselors have the most important job at summer camp. Period. A great camp staff will have kids wanting to come back to camp year after year. First Class Counsellors is here to make great camp staff. Each week, we’ll cover practical and accessible tips that will level up your camp counselor skills. Our two hosts, Oliver Gregan, Summer and Families Camp Director at YMCA Camp Jewell and Matt Honsberger from Go Camp Pro are excited to be able to provide this resource to camp counselors.

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First Class Counselors

Should We Send Them Home? - First Class Counselors #80

December 11, 2025 • First Class Counsellors - from Go Camp Pro • Episode 80

0:00 | 52:30

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Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/first-class-counselors-pod/should-we-send-them-home

Finding Connection When You Are Frustrated

We’ve all been there. It’s week four, the coffee machine is broken, you are trying to get the cabin to the flagpole on time, and that camper is dragging their feet, making fart noises, and holding the broom upside down during cleanup. You don't necessarily want them sent home, but they are absolutely testing your patience. In this "high empathy" episode, Oliver and Matt validate those feelings of frustration while offering a roadmap to get back on track. They discuss the difference between behavior that is annoying versus behavior that requires a director's intervention, and how checking your own ego can de-escalate the situation.

Key Takeaways:

Identifying Your Triggers: Frustration often stems from specific stressors like lateness, perceived "weaponized incompetence" (like using a push broom incorrectly), or a camper's disinterest in planned activities. Recognizing these triggers is the first step to patience.
Conformity vs. Leadership: Matt challenges counselors to ask why a behavior is frustrating. Is it disrupting the camp experience, or does it simply make you feel like you are losing control or "looking bad" as a leader?
Connection Over Correction: You don't have to like every camper, but you do need to find a connection. Oliver shares a story about using Magic: The Gathering cards to bridge the gap with a disconnected camper.

E.G.E.L – Ever Growing, Ever Learning:

Oliver: Survival Tag, The Game

Matt: Find a water bottle that you love drinking from.

Sponsors:

AMSkier is a leading insurance and strategic partner for many of the finest camps in America. AMSkier partners with camps to provide public relations, legal, medical, behavior support and more - Experience the AMSkier difference. Learn more at amskier.com.

Host Links:

Matt Wilfrid, Executive Producer of Podcasting at Go Camp Pro
Oliver Gregan, Executive Director at YMCA Camp Winona

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You are not also expected to have all the answers as a counselor. That's why you have unit heads. That's why you have directors who might have those have more strategies that they can give you.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

The kid who just doesn't know how to use the broom, right? They're just kind of looks like they're messing up on purpose. So somebody will just handle it for them. I think those things can get really stressful, but a lot of times, like we just have to accept that a camper might not know something and that camp is learning.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

This is First Class Counselors, another innovative podcast brought to you by Camp Hacker. First Class Counselors is dedicated to young and up-and-coming camp efforts. By equipping and empowering our on-the-ground staff, camp directors can rest easy knowing that our campers are having the true life-changing experience that parents expect. Find our show notes and our blog for camp leaders and professionals at camphacker.tv.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

AMSkyer is a leading insurance and strategic partner for many of the finest camps in America. AM Skyer partners with camps to provide public relations, legal, medical, behavioral support, and more. Experience the AMSkire difference. Learn more at AMSkyer.com.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Welcome to First Class Counselors, where we give camp counselors insider tips and advice on how to make a camper summer the best it can be.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

And whether you are brand new to the camp world or you have told campers to stop running on the pool deck and tie their shoes a thousand times, you know that self-improvement and a growth mindset is built into the DNA of every great staff member, or dare we say it, every great first class counselor.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

My name is Oliver Griegan. I'm the director of camping services at YMC at Camp Westwood with the YMC of Pawtucket in Commentary, Rhode Island. We are a rebuilding day camp that looks to introduce overnight camp pretty soon in 2026. And Matt already hinted at what we're going to talk about, but Matt, introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

I my name is Matt Wilfrid. My pronouns are he him, and I'm the executive producer of podcasting and a consultant with Go Camp Pro. Oliver, set the stage. I I'm excited for this one. Set the stage for this episode.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Yeah, of course. It's week one at camp, or it's week six. It doesn't matter, but you need to get to flagpole, and you have a kid in the cabin who you've now told three times to get out of bed. Everybody else is ready. They're not. And when you get to flagpole, everything is super quiet. And all of a sudden you hear a loud bark noise, and you look over and you see him giggling. You see that camper who's just laughing their head off, and you're like, that is not the time for that. And as time goes on, you're now making your way to breakfast, and the same camper is just like, I don't I don't eat eggs, right? I don't eat like and that is what's for breakfast. So now you have to go and you have to find some cereal that maybe they will consume, but there is no cereal that they like. You actually have a secret box of Captain Crunch that you keep just for yourself on like your morning off breakfast, and you pull that out just to make sure that this kid eats in the morning. It's and and then it's time to clean up around the table, and you are get helping wipe down the table, and you look up this camper, and they're using the a pull broom, I guess, and it's as a push broom. They're just using their broom improperly, they're not really cleaning up. They actually probably make a bigger mess by spilling some milk on the ground, and then they're using a dry mop to clean up a wet mess, and you're like, Oh gosh almighty, okay. And all you know at this point in time is this is either incompetence or weaponized incompetence. You're just struggling. It's not 9 a.m. yet, the coffee machine is broken, and in your head, this kid just needs to go. You're done.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

That that is hard. So we're gonna be talking about campers that grind our gears. And and as directors, Oliver and I, we've been in the position where staff have come up to us. I heck, when we were counselors, I'm sure we've had that thought. So we want to we want to empathize with that thought on this episode. And because, you know, at the end of the day, we don't have to unpack this too much, but like the decision to send a camper home isn't usually up to you as a counselor. It's a decision that, you know, rests with your camp policies and leadership team. So while in your mind it might be an easy decision and and man oh man, and sometimes it feels like we get there, we we are here to empathize with you and maybe give you some other perspectives and strategies along the way. But really at the end of the day, remember that the camp experience is important for these campers and you know, especially for some of these campers. So usually our episodes are very practical, but I'll just point you to a couple from this season. We did two great episodes, one about stopping inappropriate language and building a culture of belonging. Those are just in the last couple episodes, if you're following along in the feed. So check those out for the practical strategies, but we're we're just gonna go high empathy on this one.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Yeah, I think it's not so much about just building skills, it's about understanding that situation. There are gonna be a lot of counselors, you included, who are gonna go through this summer, who are gonna feel these feelings, right? And while there will be some equipment that we put you through or give to you during this show, we want to make sure that you understand like you can get through this. It's gonna be okay. So we wanted to start off by kind of categorizing what gets us upset on camp, right? Like, what are the triggers for you as a counselor? And what are campers gonna do that are really gonna get you just thinking about how upset you are, or maybe not even understanding that you are upset, you're just in that moment of frustration. So, one of the things I think really sets me off, or always set me off as a counselor, was time. Being on time on camp is huge, whether it's getting to lunch, getting to your activity, you know, wrapping up evening program on time, meds, oh a med pass was always a nightmare. It just felt like it took forever, and and campers would be late or not show up, and you have to go and fetch them. So there's so many different things when it comes to time that can lead to frustration, right? And as a counselor dealing with those things, there are things that you can do, right? There, you can incentivize getting campers to from A to B. You can gear them up and prep them and be like, oh man, I think flagpole is gonna be really exciting today. Let's make sure that we get there on time because I think it's just I think there's something going on. I I think I saw a leadership staff member getting something super special ready, right? And I think as a leadership staff member too, like think about it on that way is like the more you make those times enjoyable and have something to anticipate, especially those large camp gatherings that you need everyone to be on time for, the more you can equip those incentivized events or mysteries or activities for people. It really does help people get there on time and you build those things up so people can get excited. And and I think just reminders, you know, like hey guys, we're leaving in five minutes, hey guys, we're leaving in three minutes, hey guys, we're leaving in two minutes. I should be see I should be seeing shoes getting putting on right now. So I think time is a really big one. They can get counselors, I think incompetence, and I know in the opening we talked a little bit about weaponized incompetence. I think as you're getting as you're getting into that summer, everything feels like weaponized incompetence, the kid who just doesn't know how to use the broom, right? They're just kind of it looks like they're messing up on purpose, so somebody will just handle it for them. I think those things can get really stressful, but a lot of times, like we just have to accept that a camper might not know something, and that camp is learning. So we're gonna have to help develop those skills. And I'm gonna talk about that in a in a later part of the show, but I want you to know that like incompetence is it's not on the fault of the camper yet. And and that's really tough to remember in your patience game. I think also disinterest or not cooperating, right? A lot of the times we may see this because a camper might not be into the sport that you're gonna be playing, or they might not be into crafts, or they might not want to write music or whatever the activity is, right? There's just a disinterest in what the activities and trying to find other ways to get involved is really challenging as a counselor sometimes because it may not feel like there's a lot of categories to get into. And and sometimes there's like you really stretch yourself thin for creativity of what can be getting done during this time. But I've literally been in crafts and I've had campers who want nothing to do with the crafts, but I entertain them by saying, Hey, do you want to help organize the craft shelves? And they just go ham, like some there, they just go folk, they focus in, and that's what they want to do for an hour instead of you know making a craft that means nothing to them, and they can provide something else in another way. So I think disinterest or not cooperating sometimes is a lack of purpose and helping equip the camper with something to do during that time, and also like understanding like not everyone wants to do everything every day. Like that kid who plays soccer all the time may not want to play soccer when the rest of the cabinet is playing soccer because they know that their skill level is different and it's not going to be as entertaining or as fun for them, and they just would rather like sit out. I've a hundred percent seen that, and it's unfortunate because you were like, Oh, we kind of planned this activity for you, the kid who likes soccer, and now you don't want to play, like what like oh the whole point of us coming down here. And then the best part is as a counselor, know that that kid will complain later that you guys don't play enough soccer on camp. Um and then I think another one, another big big trigger for what makes a counselor sometimes unhappy is just a camper who might really struggle with their social skills. Like, you know, an eight-year-old kid, a 13-year-old kid, it doesn't matter. They're still learning how to socialize properly. And they might say things, do things that make others uncomfortable. They might might want to disassociate with the cabin a little bit and just be like, I don't want to be a part of this, right? And they keep themselves, you know, arm's length away. Or they might be that really big personality in the cabin that doesn't know how to own it down for a little bit. And you know, you get back to the cabin at the end of a long day, and they're they still got that big personality, and you gotta look at them and be like, hey, like let's take it down a notch. A lot of times you'll see that is like we like that counselor aide, that camper who like always wants to be by your side. They see you as a hero, and they're just constantly asking questions and how can they can help and what can they do? And you know, what's next, what's next, and they're they're asking a thousand questions. You're like, hey, like let's let's like just work on how like what the mood is right now. And the mood is like, please, like, let's just calm down a little bit at the end of the day here, or it might be the vice versa, and just you know, it's a camper who you know isn't gonna buy into those big moments, and you gotta, you know, I don't want to say you're carrying them along with you, but you're definitely guiding them with the group so the rest of the group can still have that shared experience of whatever this epic thing is happening, and they and they get to also be there and a part of it. So um those are some triggering things I think that a lot of times counselors get hit by. But Matt, what are some things that for you in the past have seen your patients tested or you've seen staff get tested in?

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Yeah, it's a good list, Oliver. I I think it's funny. I I what I want to kind of break down a little bit too is about where these frustrations come from. And the only reason I'm able to talk about the kind of the meta, like where these frustrations come from, is because I'm not frustrated right now in the moment, right? You you don't when when a camper is like really grinding your gears, you're not like, oh, I wonder where this frustration is coming from. So let's let's take a reflective moment now when we're not in the middle of getting a camper out the door because flag pulls in five minutes. Like it's too hard to do that. But I think it's it's important though to understand kind of your personal biases where where these frustrations come from and where it might be a cultural thing for your camp, because we have more control over our personal ones than our camp culture. So let's let's maybe talk about camp culture first. So, like when it comes to these behaviors, like the question that I have it's taken me a long time to to really understand is like, why does it matter? You know, is we say like being being on time at camp, yes, it's important, but like how important is it really? And and is it important because the rules at camp are are there? Like, does your director say that like being on time, being right on time to flagpole is really important? So that's a that's a pressure that you are facing as a as a counselor, and you might not have control over that. So, and it and it's frustrating, you know. It's frustrating to be that counselor whose kids are falling behind. But where it comes into the personal sense is, you know, do am I worried that my camper being late makes me look bad? Why why am I frustrated about that? Because I I don't want to be the counselor on the spot because it makes me look bad. So I'm then taking my, you know, my feelings of not being a competent counselor and imparting them onto the camper by like yelling at them to hurry up, right? I'm I'm not saying it's it's wrong necessarily. I'm just saying that that's where it might be coming from. But it might be a pressure that's put on by the culture of your camp. That, you know, if if the structure is very rigid at your camp, then the result is going to be that you have to rush kids along. And that goes against where kids naturally are like psychologically, especially as they become a teenager, right? They they don't that they want to sleep more, they they don't have as much respect or care for the rigidity of a schedule. It doesn't matter to them as much. And and I think also, you know, looking from a personal standpoint, like what are what are your triggers based on how you were raised or how you were a camper? So like I know for me, something that I especially really care about is when I see a camper's behavior as affecting the camp experience for other campers, like when it when it really like a cabin is not gelling and not meshing together. I know that for me, like camp for me was a place where like I really found good friends and I had really great cabins. And I think my counselors did a great job like fostering that and creating those those environments. So whenever I see a camper not doing that, it's a personal trigger for me. And I maybe blow that behavior up because I'm so worried about this camper affecting this idealized version of camp that I have for myself. And maybe I'm putting more emphasis on that than it needs to be. And the last thing I'll say is I think for maybe, maybe this is just my experience, but you know, as a counselor, this is uh a pretty big step up when it comes to like leadership of other kids, right? You you are in charge of or co-in charge of like eight-ish, eight or or more kids at once. And sometimes when we think about leadership, we think about conformity. We think that that being a good leader means that you are directing these eight kids and they are listening to what you do, they are lining up how you say you're going to. And I call that like a conformity bias that these kids need to fit into these perfect little boxes, or I'm not being a good leader, or you know, they're being bad by default. When like that would only apply if we were up like at a military camp, right? And and I I think sometimes we put a bit too much emphasis on that conformity and not enough emphasis on, you know, that we're that we're having fun at camp. And and yes, there there's structure to that fun. I think this is a bigger conversation, but like let's all just take a deep breath and remember that we're at camp and remember that, you know, some kids aren't gonna like eggs sometimes, and sometimes we're gonna we're gonna find ways to make it work. And we can have boundaries. I don't think you need to go into your personal stash of cereal to to make this to get this camper to eat. There are certain times where you're gonna pass up these behaviors to some of the other leadership staff at camp, and and and you are not also expected to have all the answers as a counselor. That's why you have unit heads, that's why you have directors who might have those have more strategies that they can give you. So just take a deep breath, realize what you can and can't control, and pass it up when you need to.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Yeah, I think Matt, that's such a great point about passing it up. I think most of the time as a counselor, you'll know probably within the first 24 hours a lot of the little things that a camper might have that you're gonna be working with for the rest of the session, right? So, and and it's not saying that you should define your camper and who they are in 24 hours, right? Like they're gonna show you who they are over the course of the entire session, they're there. But I think within 24 hours, you start to see like you, you, you've done your first wake up, right? Like you've done your first first set of three meals at that point. Like you've you've gone through a full day of activities for the first time. You've seen how they've started to socialize with their group. So you can start to go to that leadership staff member at the end of day one, once the kids are kind of getting tucked in and going to bed, or maybe morning of day two, and just say, Hey, I've got this one camper in my cabin who I've just noticed lags behind a lot. Like they really do struggle to keep up with the group. Or they openly said in the first night of cabin chats that their parents sent them here and they don't want to be here. That and oh yeah, right. And and I've legitimately had counselors who come up to me in the morning of day two and and said that, and that their camper said, I am not going to have fun this week and will do my best to not have fun. And instantly you see that you have a wall that you have to you have to get over before you can really start to connect with that camper because they're putting it up because they didn't want to be there in the first place. And and I think it starts to become really important when you go to have that conversation with your director about these types of things. Is this a send home, right? Is this camper somebody who is doing behaviors that are intentional to you know get themselves out of camp or they don't understand that their behaviors are wrong and therefore like they're continuously doing them? Are they that camper who is on the precipice, right? They're on the ledge of doing something that you know is a send home and you think they need to go home before that thing happens. Or is this just a collective of behaviors of trying to get this camper on board with what is going on in camp, right? Of what our culture is within our world and and hopefully getting them to be a part of it in a way that is both conducive for the camp environment, but also beneficial for that camper and their development. So let's talk a little bit about the send home versus an annoyance, right? And to get off the bat, you don't have to like all your kids in your cabin, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:42

It's a hot take. Hot take, Oliver.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

It's I don't I I think it's a pretty cold one if you've been a counselor before. Man, you look at those eight kids in your cabin or 12 kids in your cabin, you can very easily just go, not my cup of tea, right? And I'm a big tea fan. So but it it doesn't mean that you can't foster a connection with these kids, right? I always I always go back to the fact of you know, you can find some form of connection with anyone, right? Like it doesn't have to be a strong one, and especially it can't, like sometimes even the smallest connections can have a huge meaning to a camper. I always remember back to my first summer as a camper, I found out that one of my campers really enjoyed Magic the Gathering, and I had played as a younger child, but I hadn't seen a magic card in probably a decade at that point. And I like made the intention of making sure I got my magic cards from home that were hidden away in some bin and brought them out to camp and was like, Hey, do you want to play some magic with me? And and that started getting this camper back into the group, right? Like a counselor accepted them, like had something in common with them, started playing with them, and then all of a sudden, some other campers in the cabin were like, Oh, I have magic cards too, right? Like we can play, or I used to play, or or there was an understanding, and all of a sudden you start to foster a connection, even if you have a little bit in common, a little bit in common that you might not know about yet. That's a really important part as a as a counselor. It also helps you not be annoyed with that kid, right? If you have a connection with someone, right, you have a reason to care about them, you have a reason to be invested in them, you're you're buying into their development as well. So I really, really encourage a strong tool for every counselor to have is find a way to connect with your campers, not just like, oh, we have something in common, but we can do something together, right? We can talk about books that we read, we can talk about sports, right? Whatever it might be, what's the thing that gets the two of you connected? And from there, you can start to find a way to adapt programs to to make sure that the two of you are two of you are gonna get connected, but also that they're gonna get connected to whatever activities you're doing. That they know that when they're gonna go to soccer, they're gonna go to basketball, they're gonna go to arts and crafts, that you're gonna adapt the program to make sure that it's comfortable for them. And all of a sudden they're not dragging their feet to go to those areas. They know that they can trust that their counselor is gonna take care of them in those areas and be like, oh, I have an I don't worry, I have an option for you. I have something that you're gonna enjoy when we get there as well. And the reason why this is so important is it's different from it's different from when you go to send home a camper because like Matt said earlier, there's policies, there's procedures. That's how that's like how the camp director gets involved. And generally speaking, a camper is not gonna get home, get sent home unless they are doing something dangerous, there's a safety concern there or a health concern, or they're negatively affecting others' experience in such a way that it it's in a quite traumatic fashion, right? And sometimes, like for me as a camp director, I'm looking to see if that is a quite intentional decision that they're making, right? They are intentionally trying to be mean or cruel or hurtful or ruin the experience of others, or it's to such a degree that they are oblivious to the fact that they're doing so. So understand like the send home of a camper is not the ultimate goal. And when you're in that area of frustration and anger and your your patience is just completely tested and you feel like the only option is to send that kid home, right? It's not right. Like there are other ways to work with this and understand that there are policies in place to make sure that those kids get the opportunity to be at camp and have a full experience. It's not just because we've lost our patience with them, we can't find a way to deal with them anymore. They're going home for much more different, much more specific reasons. And that's kind of the difference between just a send home and an annoyance, right? And how you kind of deal with that annoyance. So, Matt, what what else are you looking for for this for this difference?

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Well, I I think I think you said it, Oliver. It's the the going home is actually should be a pretty easy decision from a director's standpoint. But I, you know, we can't speak for every camp director and every every culture that they have, and and they have their own procedure. Like maybe the home gets called, and directors ask families what strategies they use at home, and then they might give you those strategies. So, like there's a whole like you know, things that are happening in the background that you might not be able to control. But I wanted to, I can't help myself all over. I have to I have to go practical here. I have to talk about like what it looks like for you to actually kind of like ask for help. Because again, as we're doing this episode, I I'm just reminding myself that we don't always have the tools that comes with years and years of working with kids. So I want to give a bit of a framework of like what does it look like to ask for help? Because what I see from really great staff members is are the ones that are doing a lot to try within the without making like big structural trying to trying to think about big structural changes. Like a big structural change is sending a kid home or switching groups, or like those kinds of things that like really take a lot of work from the camp background. Like it takes a lot of work to switch a kid from a cabin to a cabin or to send a kid home. And I those are more like of the last resorts that we want to take. So thinking for for yourself, like what are the things that I can do that are within the structure without like disrupting the big structural changes at camp? And go to our other episodes for those specific ones. But when it comes to asking help, I've said this on the podcast before. When a staff member asks me for help, the first question I always ask is, like, okay, what have you tried already? Right. And it if a staff member comes to me and they haven't tried anything yet, I'm gonna say, like, okay, you like what do you think the first steps are? So really trying to empower yourself. And I think this looks good on you as a staff member, is to actually try some specific strategies, like incentivizing, making things fun, like just some basic things that I think you could intuit. And then so when you go to your your the person who's supporting you, your your supervisor or whatever you want to call it, give them what you've tried already, and that's a good starting point. The second is to be specific about what is the behavior that you're noticing. Like if somebody comes to me and just says, Well, this kid is annoying, like that's not showing that you're really thinking deeply about it. It's showing you that you're very frustrated. I I hear you, but like what are they specifically doing? Because if you don't give the specifics, then how can you expect your leadership person who's not in the cabin there with you to like understand actually what's going on and give you some really good advice? And and I think also sometimes I've had staff members come to me and say, Well, like, can you just come and and be there? And you know, I I hear that and I always ask why. You know, what what would it how would it be helpful for me to be there? Do you just want me because of my perceived authority to help use my authority to get this kid to conform? Because that's that's not really. I mean, my philosophy on a leadership is not about us using our power, it's about helping campers have a great experience and and talking with this kid about why they're not having this great experience. We try to move, like I try to be used as a director only when I'm like really, really needed in a situation because there's already the campers view me as a threat as a director. So, you know, what what can we do before we get to those to those stages? And it might be just like getting another staff member who the camper doesn't recognize as an authority figure just to like be there for the side or on the side of a session to kind of reality check these observations that I'm I'm seeing. Because there's so many steps that we can take before we get into the like, do we even need to like, you know, does a camper need a quote like time out or or what kind of like discipline we need to enact? So I think that's one thing. And I think that sometimes counselors don't see the value of having honest conversations with kids. And and like some of the most powerful conversations I've had with campers is when when you do have a moment to like chat with campers, maybe it's in like the free time between you know an activity and a meal, saying, you, you know, hey, I I'm noticing that it seems like you're not having a really good time. Can can you tell me tell me more? Like what's going on here? I noticed that, you know, I noticed that we're it's it's a real struggle to get you up in the morning and to flagpole. It feels like you and I are always like clashing on this, and that it doesn't, it doesn't feel great for me, and I'm sure it doesn't feel great for you. Can you just like tell me more about that? And you never know like when a camper is going to open up and tell you something that you might not realize. At the end of the day, it might be that you just don't have enough data about this problem. And there might be, again, already talked about connections, there might be some points that you can connect with. And the kid says, like, man, I'm really not getting enough sleep, and I'm so tired in the mornings, and be like, okay, so like let's let's strategize. What can we do? Maybe do you want to like chill for evening program rather than like going and running around? And maybe like, can can we build a nap time in? Like, again, we're strategizing, and if we can strategize alongside campers too, I think that's really powerful because it helps them be a part of the decision-making process. You know, are you gonna get a kid that says, like, I don't want to be here, I'm gonna make your life L for the next little bit? It could happen, but more like that's happened to me like twice. I think it's happened to like staff that I've worked with like twice. And then that's where you're using directors to step in to call families and and ask about like, you know, what are we doing here? Can we strategize? But from a counselor perspective, I think there's some there's some practical steps there you can take before it gets to that point. For over a hundred years, Summer Camp has been an integral part of the AM Skyer world. Today, AM Skyer is a strategic partner for summer camps across the country, building personal relationships and providing valuable resources to their clients and friends. 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SPEAKER_02 29:22

I think you you hit a couple points that I really want to emphasize is one, you're working alongside with that camper, right? A lot of times where there's conflict between you and another camper is because you're trying to set this precedent of this is how it has to be. Like we have to be here on time. And if you're not on time, I'm getting upset. And all of a sudden you guys are just clashing a lot. Where, like Matt has definitely emphasized that if you guys are working in parallel and in tandem to try and get to it, you're connecting with that camper and you're finding the grounds for them to be able to accomplish these tasks, they're much, much more likely to work with you. Not only that, but like respect is such an important thing for your camper to have for you. And if you're gonna put up this wall and say, No, this is the way it has to be, I'm not gonna work with you. It's really tough for that camper to respect you as an individual, which is why, like, when your camp director comes in, they respect that camp director on the fact that they are the director, right? So, like they have to listen. There are rules, there are consequences that they're not gonna listen to that person. Whereas you as a counselor, like respect is such an important part for that relationship between you and your camper that you need to be working with them and finding a way. And you'll find that when a counselor, sorry, when a director comes in to try and handle these situations, I very much, and I can I and I don't want to speak for all directors, but I think most of us think this way is I'm coming in to figure out how I can work with that camper right off the bat. Like, what can what can we do to help this work for you? If you as a counselor are taking that strategy, it really, really does help. There is one thing about syndromes that I didn't talk about, and we're talking a little bit about incompetence and and struggling with campers trying to get things done. There's one situation where I do say that this sometimes is a little bit more common where if a camper is not able to perform, and I just wanted to add it in here before we move to the next topic, and that is because a camper just isn't ready for camp yet. So a lot of times you'll see this with maybe a younger camper. You know, you have that like six, seven-year-old who's coming for overnight camp for their first time. They've never stayed a night and somewhere else, they're just consistently homesick, right? They may not be fully potty trained, or this may be their first time away from home and they just aren't able to um control their body when they go to sleep at night and they're constantly wetting the bed or having other accidents, or that might be happening as they walk around camp because they've had the access to go to the bathroom at any time with their parents, or their parents are just really keen to it, and now they're stuck with a group, and it just it's a little bit longer sometimes between when I say I need to go to the bathroom to when they can get to the bathroom. Sometimes it might be things like they maybe don't understand full commands or anything, or like what's going on. They just there's a disconnect because they haven't worked with somebody other than their parents, which is coming a little bit more common today. It's a topic for another podcast that I know Matt and I are planning, but they're they're maybe just not ready for camp. And that's an understandable thing, but that they're not ready for camp doesn't come just because you start to notice these little things. It does take time to communicate with your director and get those things and then talking to the parents and be like, hey, we just want to make sure that we're covering all our bases here. And there's some things campers need to be able to do before coming to camp, and we just notice that your son or daughter is really struggling and we're working with them on it. But at a certain point, like we're we're only gonna expect our counselors to um, you know, clean so many sets of sheets every single morning. Like we are we're only gonna expect our counselors to handle so many issues of a camper refusing to move because they're homesick and they're crying on a rock and they're not willing to like move to the next activity, and and now it's holding up a counselor or two to help handle the situation. So just know like there are some categories where like a camper may not be ready for camp or camp might not be the best fit that's a send home, but it's a it's a it is a very different situation than what Matt and I have been talking about, where it's an annoyance. It's it's more of you, and you and I think your feelings change as a counselor too, where like instead of annoyance, it's almost as though you like I don't want to say pity, but you feel bad that this camper isn't able to continue with the group. Like you just see that they're struggling, they're trying, or like they're just not able to. And there's like I said, there's a very different feeling you as a camp director have, or you as a camp counselor or as a camp director feel in this situation. You know it. It's a gut feeling of just like, man, like this kid could be here next year, and they'd have a great time. But like they they're they're 12 years old and they still have velcro shoes because they haven't figured out how to tie them yet, and they're there's something else going on that needs to be addressed with these parents, so this kid is ready for camp. And that is a conversation with the directors, that is a conversation with the parents of the child, right? And it you just need to make sure you're communicating those things. It's a it's definitely different.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Yeah, I I want to I want to just like kind of plus one and push back a little bit on that too, because like again, you as a counselor don't have the decision making around that. And I I don't think it's actually so important that you for you as a counselor to even decide if this kid is ready for camp or not. Like, I think that's a a very broad like whether a camper is ready or not. Like you said, Oliver, it's it's a different podcast. But I I also think that like I want you as a counselor to and maybe this will translate transition us into our last topic, but like I want to empower you as a counselor to like think about what you can do to help these campers while they're at camp. They're they're here, they're not going home yet. You don't have control over whether they're going home. And what an opportunity if if if it's an overnight setting, if it's an especially if it's an extended camp setting, like a two-week session. Man, what an opportunity to give campers some of these skills. Like, let's let's talk about wetting the bed. Man, if if this kid is having issues with with wetting the bed or wetting themselves, how can what can you do as a counselor to make some changes? And and like talk to again, go to your leadership team if you feel like you don't have the strategies. Be specific about what you're seeing. This camper is wetting the bed every night. This kid is not able to make it to the bathroom when they said and if you have good leadership at your camp, they might give you strategies like okay, no water after snack time, right? Or after after evening program. Like you get a small drink of water and that's it. You know, bathroom breaks in the middle of your session. Talk to the program staff who are leading your sessions and say, we need to build in a bathroom break halfway through this session. Like there are strategies that you can try that you can accelerate a camper's like readiness for camp even within a one-week session, right? So, so please don't just take the strategy. Like what we what we don't want coming for this episode is for you to be like, la, this camper can't be at camp. Like if for whatever reason, whether whether they're like, quote, ready for camp or not. I think you should be empowered to try something and to do something. Like, that's what makes a first class counselor in my mindset, is somebody that doesn't approach this from uh like you know it's it's okay to have that feeling once to say, like, okay, that this man, it would be really it would be a lot easier if this kid wasn't here. But the first class counselor is somebody who like digs in and starts to try some things.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

And to be clear, these strategies are gonna be what your camp director is coming to you with when you say, like, hey, these are things I'm struggling with. What are some strategies to handle with? The camp director is gonna be the one who goes, Okay, we're doing all these strategies, there's still a struggle here. I'm talking to the parents and we're figuring it out. I think the reason why I bring it up is because there's a different level of care. I think instead of maybe and it's an annoyance, it's a it's you question yourself as a counselor whether or not you can support this camper, right? Or you you you might not be there yet. Or but it it's a it is a very different situation, is what I want to emphasize. And that like it is okay to understand that sometimes those those things do happen. Like a camper might go home because you know the parents just signed him up a little bit too early for camp. And that does not mean you are giving up here. And I think Matt said it's very good that we're transitioning to our last topic here because the the whole point of this podcast is that you are not giving up as a counselor, right? Like you, there is a reason why camp exists, there's a reason why we're pushing through these difficult situations of us being annoyed and having to deal with some things that just make us frustrated. Because at the end of the day, there's a payout that camp provides that we want to make sure that our campers are getting. And for me, when we're talking about why it's important for these campers to get it, get through camp if they might be struggling or were struggling with their behavior, is because campers are learning behavior, right? And and learning behavior takes time, right? There is a reason why we are not socially fully developed ever in our lives, right? Like I even at my age, I'm wondering about what my behaviors are doing to the people around me. So am I able to be out in public and and and feel like a normal person? Yeah, pretty much all the time. But do I not live with some self-conscious stuff? Yeah. The thing you have to think about is that self-conscious stuff is because I've learned some socially acceptable behaviors that get me through the world because I went through these things as a kid, right? I I had experiences that led me through that may have been difficult or great, and I remember them and I inst and they're instilled, they become regular behaviors for me, but it takes time. And when you're working with a kid who's either five or even 16, right, they're still very, very much learning the social dynamic of being around other people, and and that coexistence that is given to us in camp is not common in other places. Like you are in a cabin with strangers, you are eating breakfast, lunch, dinner with strangers, you are doing activities with people you've never met before. You are being watched over by a counselor who you do not know, and they are an authority figure that is on top of you 24-7, but they're also like not much older than you. So, like, why does this horse get to watch over us as dogs? Great John Maloney quote right there. But that's important to understand that that coexistence in the camp world is also a challenge, right? It'd be a challenge on an adult, right, to be able to spend a week with a bunch of strangers in a cabin. So, why is it not an acceptable understanding that it's a challenge for a kid? And I think another thing too is campers, especially when they're young, right? They're young, they're they're learning, they're getting developed, they are all at different paces and different learning in their lives, right? Parents prioritize different things, communities prioritize different things. Kids who come from different places are gonna come from a different walk of life and are gonna be more developed in some areas than others. Some their community might be education is extremely important. We're gonna be really focused on math, science, history. You are going to be able to be a straight A student, and that is their focus. But they might not have the practical skills of this is how we sweep a room, right? And then on the flip side, you might have somebody who is much more like home centric and you know, keeping a clean home or like knowing how to cook at the age of like eight, right? These are things that they might have learned in their home. These skill sets, these learning, they might have a highly social atmosphere in their home life. Another family might have a much more closed and more centralized, like this is our tight-knit family. So these things all lead to different development levels in our campers. And it's really important to understand that when you put all these in a cabin together, right? You're gonna see kids who can tie their shoes, kids who can't. But the kids who can't tie their shoes can also, I don't know, run 15 miles. And you're just like, wait, hold on a second, how'd you even tie your shoes to run that? And they're like, Oh, my mom ties my shoes, and then she just says, Go, right. Like, who knows? But these kids are gonna come from different walks of life. And I think a really cool thing as a counselor is that means that every kid has something to offer the cabin, right? One kid falls short in one is falling short in one area, another kid might be in an area where they can assist that kid. And an example that I've always like kind of laughed about, but has I give to ex as an example to parents when they come like on a tour and I go, one of the beautiful things about a camp is if you have a bunch of nine-year-olds who all go to the bathroom at the end of the day to like clean up and end their day like for showers and stuff, the kid who doesn't brush their teeth, like the mom who really struggles to get their kid to brush their teeth at night, all of a sudden is are surrounded by a bunch of nine-year-olds who may have already met that expectation, and they get into the bathroom and they all brush their teeth, no problem because that's what they know. And then all of a sudden, this nine-year-old starts to realize oh, oh, oh, oh, like everybody else my age does that. I need to be able to brush my teeth too. And when that kid leaves camp, they now are brushing their teeth every day. It's such a small little victory that might be there for that mom and that family and that child to like find like get to there, and that it's it's mildly peer pressure, right? Like whatever, but it is helping develop those skills that we as a community really, really need because it does create some form of like mild community conformity that we all know, yeah, by nine years old, we should be able to brush our teeth, right? You know, we we really have to emphasize that that's an importance that camp gives us of that peer-to-peer, but also this like mildly older peer of a counselor can give of like, hey, I just lived through that experience and now I can share it with you. And still having a camp director who's like, like, hey, when you get older, these are gonna be expectations of what your behavior is. And and a lot of camp is that very formative place for kids, and that's why camp is so so important for us at the end of the day, is it's going back to what I said at the beginning. This is camp is learning, right? And it's it's that social learning that comes from every single day of being on camp that really helps that kid figure out who they're gonna be. And I think Matt has a really great point that he's gonna make using that line too. So, Matt, what why is camp so important when when we're so annoyed and we don't have the patience? What makes it so so important?

SPEAKER_00 43:32

I said this on the podcast before, and and you know, about my personal camp experience of why camp was so important to me was becamp because camp in some of the modern like research, they're they're calling camp a third space. So, you know, in in what for adults, it's like your home, your work, and your third space, something else. But for kids, it's it's their home, their school, and something else. So camp being this like place that is a way. From the expectations that kids might have with their families, away from the expectations they might have with their peer group that they see every day at school. And it's a camp can be a place where they get to be the person that they might want to be when they're not facing the pressures of the people that they see every single day, right? They get to be what some might call their authentic selves. And I wanna try not to age myself too much here, but I am gonna drop a little bit of parenting advice that I heard that I think makes a lot of sense in this context. And they say the worst time to take your kid to a grocery store is right after daycare or school. Because when they're at school or they're at daycare, they're doing what's called masking. They're falling into like the conformity of the rules and the structure that the place where they are has been. So, like at daycare and at school, conformity is is kind of valued. You listen to the teacher, you you, you know, you line up when teachers say to line up. That that is kind of the very average structure of most schools. I'm not talking about like the Montessori schools or some of those, like the free play nature schools, which I love, but you know, that's where you kids are usually coming from. And when they're in the car with you on the way home, they are like they are rebelling against that structure that they had at daycare. So they might be a little more sensitive. They might just like need a snack and time to chill. And I think when you think about that from the the camp perspective, is these kids have come from, you know, if they're coming back to camp from like 11 months and three weeks of masking, of having to put themselves in these boxes that their friend group has made for them. This box of like being a nerd or you know, not being like being like classified as the sporty, quiet person or this thing. So I can't, they they're coming and they're pushing these boundaries, they're maybe pushing against what they've been forced to be. And sometimes that can be a really beautiful thing where kids get to discover that part of themselves. And I think that that we as counselors, if we can appreciate that this kid is like trying on new identities or trying on, you know, different personalities, I think, or just like like rebelling against what they've been forced to be in in the non-camp world, then I think we can have a little bit of empathy for that. And then it all comes back to like my behavioral philosophy, not mine, but like the one that I I subscribe to is that all behavior is communication. When when it when a kid is acting a certain way, they're communicating about what they need in that moment. They're just they just don't necessarily have the skills to communicate that in the most like appropriate way or way that we understand. Sometimes they're communicating it from a sense of overwhelm or from you know acting out or you know, fight, flight, or freeze, those types of things. So if we can go to that level of what does this camper need and and who are they trying to be, who are they expressing themselves as, then I think we can approach this with understanding that we have a real opportunity for the short time that they're at camp to allow them to discover the part about themselves that they might want to change into when they have to go back to the non-camp world.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

That was a great show. I think we talked a lot about about like that stress and empathizing. And I think we also talked about some ways to handle that stress and and why that stress might exist. But let's finish our show with our eggle, our ever growing, ever learning. It's a trick, a tip, a game, or a song for counselors to use to become better every day. And Matt, I'll let you kick this one off.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Mine is very simple, and I may have done it before, but I don't care because it's so important. Find a water bottle that you love drinking from and find it now before camp starts, and buy two of them if they're not super expensive. I don't think you need to get like the swell or the I don't know. Until we get a brand partnership, Oliver, with a water bottle type. I don't care which one you buy. It could be an Algene with like this the lid in like the sippy lid insert that you can put inside of it. Whatever that water bottle is, get it and start drinking out of it now. I think we are always not hydrated enough. And at camp, we are definitely never hydrated enough. So find that water bottle that that you like. Go go to like your whatever your outdoor store of choice is, uh, find a local one rather than one of the big brand name ones, and you know, talk to somebody and ask them about you know what what would a good water bottle would be for a camp counselor. Don't just go on Amazon, just just go in and like talk to the sales associate at where where you're working, and and they'll you it'll be a good conversation. So find a water bottle, go out and do it in person, and that's that's my egg go.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

No, it's a great one. Water bottles are so important. And Matt has a great advice with buy two of them. You might lose one during the summer. And my my advice is like buy like get the cheap one. Like, there's no reason for you to be why walking around with like a$50 hydro flask or something. It's you especially because it's gonna be valuable. You're gonna you lose it, and then all of a sudden for me, I have a game, I call it survival tag. You do it with flag football flags, so everyone gets to wear them, and then essentially you're just playing tag and everyone runs around wearing the flags, but you can increase your borders, you can go out into the woods to play, but it's nice because each of the football flags just represents a life. So once they get pulled, right? Like you have people who like don't survive, and then it's whoever has a flag at the end of the game. It's very, very simple, but it it adds an extra element to that tag game that is just a little bit more fun. And we've done it from everything from jumping on our kangaroo jumper, like our jumping pad, to space out in the woods. That's a lot of fun. I've even played it on our like high ropes course, which is is just ridiculous. But our high ropes course allows us to do that, so we can have some fun doing it, and it's really funny to watch them try and play it safely. We have a few more rules when we're up in the air, but but it's a great game, and and I suggest it's just and it's an added element you can put onto other games as well that can make it fun. If you enjoyed today's show, we'd be so grateful if you left her as a review wherever you're listening to this podcast. Your ratings reviews not only help us know what you like or didn't like about the show, but it also boosts our rankings and helps more people discover what we're pitching here.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

And uh big thank you to our editor, Ryan. Ryan, thanks for all your work to get these episodes out and and looking good and helping us sound good. Thank you for all of your work there. And don't forget, if you are listening, you can check out our show notes from this episode at gocamp.pro slash FCC. There's lots of great stuff there. You can check out the other GoCamp Pro podcasts at gocamp.pro slash podcast. And there are seven podcasts that are going out on the camp on the camp feed. And if you're a counselor saying, maybe I I want to know a little bit more about daycamp, go check out the daycamp pod. Our friends Andy, Sam, and Jordana are putting out some great episodes that are, you know, more geared towards the the directors and leaders of day camps, but it could be a good, you know, mindset shift. Oliver and I usually come from the overnight background. So hearing about some daycamp tips from those folks would be helpful for sure.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

Yeah, I know I go and listen to the shows all the time. So it's a great resource to have, and it's awesome that we have this great community of podcasting. The GoCamp for the Go Camp Pro Podcast Network is a great resource for all learning. And remember, at the end of the day, camp is camp and camp is all good. Thanks for listening, friends.

SPEAKER_01 51:31

First class counselors is brought to you by Beth and Travis Allison, Summer Camp Leadership Training and Marketing Consultants. Thanks for listening, friends.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Hey Camp Ros, we love that our industry is built on sharing. In order to foster that spirit, we hope that whenever you share an idea that you learn from the Camp Hacker Podcast, conference, summer camp professionals group, or wherever else, that you're quick to give credit where credit is due. That way, we can all encourage more camp pros to share the tips and tricks that will make camp better.