First Class Counselors

Camp counselors have the most important job at summer camp. Period. A great camp staff will have kids wanting to come back to camp year after year. First Class Counsellors is here to make great camp staff. Each week, we’ll cover practical and accessible tips that will level up your camp counselor skills. Our two hosts, Oliver Gregan, Summer and Families Camp Director at YMCA Camp Jewell and Matt Honsberger from Go Camp Pro are excited to be able to provide this resource to camp counselors.

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First Class Counselors

Are we Disciplining Kids Enough? - with Dane Savoury - First Class Counselors #82

March 26, 2026 • First Class Counsellors - from Go Camp Pro • Episode 82

0:00 | 57:32

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Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/first-class-counselors-pod/are-we-disciplining-kids-enough

Reframing Discipline as a Teaching Tool for Every Counselor

Join Matt and Dane as they redefine what it means to lead through discipline in a summer camp setting. Dane shares his twenty-one years of experience working with diverse populations to explain why discipline should be viewed as a teaching tool rather than a punitive measure. The conversation explores how counselors can set themselves up for success by building intentional rela`tionships through play and shared interests before any rules are ever broken.

Key Takeaways:

Focus on Connection Before Correction. Establishing a solid relationship through shared interests creates the necessary trust for discipline to be effective later on. If the first meaningful conversation a counselor has with a child is a correction, the opportunity for a positive influence is already lost.
Frame Rules with Positive Language and the Why. Instead of listing restrictions like don't jump on the bed, counselors should use positive framing such as beds are for sleeping. Explaining the purpose behind a boundary helps campers understand that rules exist for their safety and the respect of the community rather than just to limit their fun.

E.G.E.L – Ever Growing, Ever Learning:

Dane: Games that Fit into your Pocket, UNO

Matt: Darn Tough Socks, or Great Sox

Sponsors:

Ultracamp
Camp is about changing lives, not chasing paperwork. Ultracamp builds tools that make camp smoother for today's camp counselor and tomorrow's camp leader. Learn more at https://ultracampmanagement.com/firstclass

Host Links:

Matt Wilfrid, Executive Producer of Podcasting at Go Camp Pro
Dane Savoury, Director of Operations, Camp Amy Molson. Contact Email.

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Punishment is not there to teach. Discipline is there to teach. And some of the things in society are not there to teach.

SPEAKER_04 0:06

I really hate when people are like, oh, there's no excuse for that behavior. I was like, of course there is. There's always a reason behind a kid does every single thing. Yeah. And your job is not to pass judgment on that reason.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

This is First Class Counselors, another innovative podcast brought to you by Camp Hacker. First Class Counselors is dedicated to young and up-and-coming camp efforts. By equipping and empowering our on-the-ground staff, camp directors can rest easy knowing that our campers are having the true life-changing experience that parents expect. Find our show notes and our blog for camp leaders and professionals at camphacker.tv.

SPEAKER_04 0:48

Camp is about changing lives, not chasing paperwork. Ultracamp builds tools that make camp smoother. For today's camp counselor and tomorrow's camp leader, learn more at ultracampmanagement.com slash first class counselor. Welcome to First Class Counselors, where we give camp counselors insider tips and advice on how to make a camper summer the best it can be. And whether you are brand new to the camp world or you've worked with kids for a couple of years, you know that self-improvement and a growth mindset is built into the DNA of every great staff member, or dare we say it, every first class counselor. And it at this point, you're like, hey, Matt, where's Oliver? I just want to send a quick hello from our good friend Oliver, who's coming out of conference season. He's had a lot of cleanup at camp to do with the storms in the Northeast. So I'm not flying solo today, and I'll get to that in a second. But if we haven't met yet, my name is Matt Wilford. My pronouns are he, him, and I'm the executive producer of podcasting here at GoCamp Pro. And I am so excited to introduce our listeners to my good friend Dane Savory from Camp Amy Molson in Quebec, Canada. Dane reached out to me and we've been connecting for a little bit, and I finally convinced him to jump on the podcast because I think Dane is so passionate about something that I don't think we talk about enough, and that's discipline. Often in the camp world, we think about discipline being something only that like the head staff are able to do. But when we think about discipline a little bit differently than the traditional, like you're sitting in time out type of discipline, and we reframe it, it's something that we can all take part in and is actually pretty essential to the camp experience. So, Dane, welcome to the podcast. Please tell us a little bit about yourself and why this topic is so important to you.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Thank uh thank you so much, Matt, for for inviting me and for you know this this collaboration. So my name is Dane. I'm the director of operations at Amy Molson. I've worked there somehow for 21 years. I'm not sure when it happened. It was one of those, you know, you go to sleep one day and then it's been 20 years. Uh and I'm really, really excited to be on the show today. My my summer camp, Tampa Molson is a camp for at-risk youth, some campers living below the poverty line, but we also take on any kind of camper. So any kind of background, we have very, very open door policy. We give new definition to open door policy, and we we kind of accept children from all backgrounds. And our job at Amy Molson is to try to figure out ways to provide role models and provide our children with an opportunity to learn and grow, and in some cases, have maybe a brighter future than what they might be presently heading towards. So I work with a lot of different, you know, backgrounds and nationalities because we're very multicultural. And it's it's been amazing. And after 21 years, you know, I'm still surprised, I'm still excited, I'm still seeing things that I'm like, oh, I've never dealt with that before. So that's just the fun, I guess, of camping, right? That's what we signed up for.

SPEAKER_04 3:52

Yeah. Well, and Dane, that's I think it's so important because I what I love about what Amy Molson does is is that it's it kind of takes on this. We've talked about this season a lot about kind of behavior management broadly, but we've tossed around the word universal design a couple of times. And that's that's a term in kind of the inclusion space that talks about when we design something that is good, it's going to work for every kind of kid. And and Dane, if I'm right, you you have this like rich background at Amy Molson, serving you know, youth at risk. And like you said, it's a bit broader than that. But you in your other world, you also work with a wider variety of kids. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Yeah. So I'm I've I'm a little bit of uh I work with kids in a lot of different backgrounds and different settings. So I work at a uh a Jewish private day school, and I'm basically responsible for discipline in this school. And so we've got about 300 children from grades kindergarten to grade six. And yeah, I think that might have been some of the excitement about this this topic was walking in there the other day, new, I had worked there for about eight years, and then I just went back after, let's say, like seven years away, and I had the feeling that I think a lot of counselors have, a lot of people have when it comes to discipline. You're standing there, it feels a little chaotic, it feels a little like anarchy, and you're kind of like, Where where do I start? Like, do I just grab someone and say, hey, that's not okay? Like, what's the roadmap for that? So, yeah, so it's it's it's uh it's a different background. It's you know, and and and before that I was working predominantly in churches, and so working with those backgrounds, and so you know, working in in churches and working in this, you know, this Jewish day school, and then working at Amy Molson, it it's it's quite a smorgesborg, but it it and it's weird, you know, not a lot of people have the same resume as me or a similar one, but there's there's something to to learn from the experiences where you're like, oh, kids, kids are kids are kids, you know, and and what they need looks sometimes different or maybe even manifest differently, but the root is is so similar, and yeah, it's it's it doesn't need to be as scary as I think it is.

SPEAKER_04 6:15

Yeah. That's great. I love so you you have this such a rich cross-section of kids that you're working with. Tell me a little bit about how you know discipline is this like common thread for you, something that you're so passionate about. And and maybe maybe that can lead into like why why do you think we're the word discipline has such a weight to it, or like why why are we thinking about discipline in such a like only a one-sided way?

SPEAKER_02 6:41

Yeah, that's that's I think because of how many times it's done poorly. I think we make the the link to like bad moments from our childhood, bad experiences, and we're like, that's discipline. And so I remember coming home crying, I remember coming home upset, I remember being embarrassed, that's discipline. It, you know, it was addressing my behavior, and maybe it was publicly, maybe it was yelling, maybe it was just over-the-top consequences, but whatever it is now, we've made this link. Whereas I I'm coming from this background of these kind of three different, unique, weird positions where you know, in churches, you know, just had a ton of discipline in their kids' programs, you know, they kind of just hope the kids listen and that's kind of it. But you see them when like a child's not listening and they're like, We're not sure what to do, you know. And and then, you know, in my in my elementary school, it's almost like they just don't know where to start. And so because they don't know where to start, it's led into this situation where it just feels very chaotic. And then I'll bring it back to Amy Molson where some of our campers come from group homes, foster care, uh, yeah, all kinds of different backgrounds. But for some of them, they're living a situation that involves a lot of neglect. And I actually always connect neglect to a lack of discipline sometimes, you know. It's it's not the only definition, obviously, but it is a huge one. You know, watching a child do something that you know is not helpful, or even something where they are they it's a great opportunity to learn, and we're just kind of giving it up, it it it's harmful. And when you're a child care professional, you love kids, that means you you love them even when things aren't going well. I I start my interviews or end my interviews off like this with my staff. I say, Camping Molson is perfect is you love a challenge and you love kids. And the difference between loving kids and liking kids is liking kids is when things are going well, you're good, you're happy, you're like, Oh, these kids are nice, they're doing what they're supposed to do, everything's perfect. When you love kids, it's similar to a parent. It means I'm not going anywhere. It means no matter what you do, we're gonna go through this together and navigate this together, and and that's how walls start getting torn down, you know. It's not the absence of discipline, it's the presence of it, but it's also the conversations that need to take place.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:10

Oh, I I'm learning so much already. I okay, so let's we're gonna break this down for our listeners who are primarily camp counselors, some camp directors will will tune into this too, and I think it's really important that they do. But I think when we were talking about this, it's almost like it's kind of two steps. You have to you have to set the table first before it's time to eat. Uh, and you you kind of said that yourself. You're stepping into a new school or for counselors out there, every sometimes every week or every two weeks is a new session, new group of kids, new establishing all these norms and what you need to do. So we're I I think we're gonna we're gonna break down the intentionality that you want to approach creating the environment where where discipline can be a positive, a teaching, a learning experience, one that helps like anchor kids in in what's gonna be a great experience for them. And then we'll see how far we get, but I feel like it's gonna be a part two where we talk about some of these discipline strategies. So, Dan, why don't we just like start with the most important thing? What do counselors need to do to set themselves up for success the best they can? You have these kids, they're staring at them. It's like the first minute, what do they do?

SPEAKER_02 10:28

I think I think talking. I think coming ready to talk. I think talking is the mechanism by which these relationships are able to be facilitated. And it's because it's so easy, I think we diminish the value of it. Now, you gotta come prepared. You gotta what does prepared look like? Prepared looks like for me, ready to talk to my children. I want to get to know names, I want to start to establish connections over similar interests. I want to figure out a little bit about their background, if they're whatever they're willing to give me. And all of that is gonna start to shape and form my opinion about who they are and how the best ways to connect with them are. So I I don't want to rush into anything that's too overwhelming, perhaps. I also don't want to go too far without ex establishing my expectations. You know, if I don't front load my expectations, I'm already gonna start to, you know, fall behind the eight ball. What I want to do is I want to start talking. I want to start walking with them. For us, the kids, you know, they they get sorted and then they go and get their bags and then they go to their cabin. And and so what am I doing in that walk? I'm talking. I'm making it a race, maybe. I'm saying, okay, last one there. If I'm seeing that some of my kids aren't, you know, they're not as fast or something like that. I might be silly. I might like, you know, I might start walking in slow motion. It's it's mandatory slow motion time, but whatever it is, I'm trying to show them I'm here to have fun with them. I'm okay, I'm good to laugh at myself. These are some of the basics that are gonna let you start to feel and be maybe a safe person for your child, you know? And so when they're seeing like you're able to laugh at yourself, I'm able to joke around, we're starting to get somewhere, you know? And it doesn't seem like it's connected at all to discipline, and it's why we ignore it sometimes and it's why we neglect it. But truthfully, it's as simple as talking. Because if the first time your campers have a meaningful conversation with you is because of discipline reasons, it's it's not gonna be a little too late. And and and that's what happens more often than not. It's that's when we're gonna be intentional about conversations.

SPEAKER_04 12:42

Yeah, that I think that's so important, and I I love that not taking yourself so seriously is such a good way to start. I'll probably say this a couple of times in the podcast, but kids, kids are gonna give you what you give you back what you put out there, and sometimes it's like probably 20% less than you put out there. So if you're being silly, but you're setting the tone of saying that like I want you to bring yourself to this, and that's the the start of making connections, like you're talking about. I also really love I think you can't undervalue using someone's name enough. It is foundational. If you want to talk to a kid, you use their name because that feels at least like you care. And and that means like getting the pronunciation right, not not compromising on that, and being you don't have to like grill the kid in front of everyone, but if they have a name that's harder for you to pronounce, just make sure that you have gotten it by within the first hour and that you just like, hey, I just want to make sure I'm saying this right. It's really important to me that I get your name right, and then being an advocate for that kid too, making sure that everyone else is using it in the right way so that they don't if if they're not maybe a kid will do it themselves, and that's that's you know the goal, but you can create that space for them, and then you're just setting yourself up as this, you know, accessible person. Can you say, Dan, can you say a little bit more about how how do you go about making those initial connections really intentionally within that first kind of hour? What are some strategies that counselors can do to start making those connections? And do and do you mean connections like with you and them or connections with each other or both? What are you talking about there?

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Yeah, okay, so that's great. So I'm definitely zeroing in on the relationship between myself and the child. That's the one that I'm gonna need to work at. If I'm great with kids, if I'm naturally gifted with kids, it still remains the thing I need to work on because sometimes when we're really good with kids, we kind of phone it in and we neglect these things because it'll be okay, you know, we'll we'll be fine. And so that's the kind of thing that gets, you know, put on the back burner first. So my first, my first hour, the conversations I'm having, I'm establishing similar interests, and that is going to be huge. And again, it's not rocket science. A lot of people do that. People are sitting there saying, Yeah, you know, obviously similar interests. But a lot of times we try to make things connect that aren't connections, you know. So, like maybe we'll we'll like I'm drinking from my Star Wars mud this morning. I don't need to fake being interested in Star Wars, but I might need to fake being interested in Star Trek. And so, well, but why do that? Why go that route? And so, what I want to do is I just want to find out all about you, and I want to find little things that oh yeah, I'm the same. And then I'm gonna use those in my first hour later on. So, right now it's like a fact-finding mission, except I'm doing this in a very non-invasive way. People love to talk about themselves. Children's love, children love to hear that you know, you have questions for them and you're curious and you want to know about them. What do I need to do in those in those moments? Well, I have to be incredibly intentional about how I have those conversations, I have to be smart enough to be, you know, navigating where those conversations go. What happens when you know your your child and this for sure is gonna happen? Your child says something wild.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

I love hitting people, you know, like that's just for me, that's my bread and butter. So, how do you navigate these kinds of things? And so for me, it's it's it's to keep the conversation going, it's to establish, hey, I've got Jimmy in my cabin, Jimmy loves Star Wars, Jimmy loves the Marvel movies, he's very excited for Doomsday, as am I. That's our point that we're gonna start talking about. And so as soon as I have like a little, I hate to call it this, but a little ghosty on each of my chapters, that's gonna help me. And bringing it back has the same impact, I find, as remembering a child's name. Now, what frustrates me about working with adults who work with Kiv is it's almost like as soon as you start working with kids, you start to throw out everything that resonated with you when you were a child. We all know there was no greater feeling than being known, like having your name known, especially day one, or or you know, or or actual insight excitement when your counselor looks at you. These are things that we've carried with us all through our throughout our years. And so that's something that's super important. What is what else is important? Well, when I throw things back to my kids, yeah, and by what I mean by that is let's say day two, someone makes a a joke about the Marvel series, I link it to Jimmy. I'm like, hey Jimmy, this is just like what we were talking about yesterday. We got someone else that didn't like the the fanos snap, you know, whatever it is, but I'm I'm bringing it back. So they're they they you're not a I want my child to see that they're not a checklist. This wasn't like uh I okay, I will come in, I will do this. It's not robotic, there's feeling to it. And so everything you shared with me on day one, I cared about. I cared about it because I love you, I care about you, and so that's why it's in my head as the conversations go on, as the days go on, I'm gonna be bringing things back to the things that you've shared with me before. And and and that is a better way of saying I listen and I care. Instead I say this all the time in interviews. I could ask you a question, like, are you a problem solver? Do you love kids? Do you care about kids? And you you will hopefully give all the right answers because it's very easy to give the right answers. I want to see it. And so instead of telling my kid, hey, on day one, hey guys, this is a safe space and I really care about you. Let's just start employing all the techniques that are going to allow them to feel that safety. And that's that's huge. That's a huge day one.

SPEAKER_04 18:47

And you can you can tell when a kid can tell, and I mean, even me as a camp director, I can tell when a kid, when a counselor is talking to a camper like they're the most important thing in the world, and I can tell when a counselor is talking to a kid and thinking about when their when their break is. You know what I mean? Like there is there there is that sense, and and kids pick up on that. They 100% do. I want to just plus one the strategy that you said is that it's you know, it is hard sometimes to relate to what kids like. And you know, both of us, Dane, we are not we we haven't been camp counselors maybe for a couple of years. I'm not gonna give anything totally away, but if you find it hard because you haven't watched K-pop demon hunters or like you're not into the Marvel universe, it's not necessarily about like trying to like name things and get them to respond to it. Just ask them questions. Yeah, just like what what are you into? Like, what are you excited about? What are you excited about at camp? That like, come on, that you were all at camp together. That's the easiest thing to be asking them about and start building again. You're finding out their interests, but also, you know, maybe what they're looking forward to, what they're nervous about about being at camp. All of those things are gonna be just kind of fuel for future conversations. Hey, first class counselors, listeners, listen up. Ultra camp has a free resource just for you. That's right, the frontline staff, the counselor's survival checklist, packed with tips on communication, time management, camper care, all of those practical things that we talk about on the podcast all the time. Great counselors often become great directors, and the habits you build now will set you up for that path. Ultracamp is designed to make camp life easier. Things like keeping schedules and assignments organized, helping leaders communicate clearly with staff, making sure families stay informed so that you can focus on the campers. When camp runs smoothly, you can grow into the leader you were meant to be. Check it out at ultracampmanagement.com slash firstclass. I want to throw before we we move forward, I want to just throw a couple of like tangible things that I was thinking about when it came to this like breaking into conversations. And and really it's just plus one and a lot of the smart things you you said, Dane, but I think playing is just so important to start with before you get to rules, before you get to expectations. If you can play some easy games to get started with, and I think the the games you choose have to be intentional, though. It's easy instructions, they don't take a lot to get going. High engagement. We've talked about this on the podcast this season that everyone is engaged, nobody gets out, nobody is sitting on the sidelines, everyone's engaged at all stages of it. Um, there's no teams, there's no opportunity for clicks, it's just like fun, silly play. I think I've talked about the game walk stop on the podcast, and I'll make sure that there's a link to the video on how to play it. It's just every it's like a follow the leader game, but the instructions get a little bit more complicated. It's silly, it's fun, nobody gets out. You can play like everybody's it, which is just everybody's it tag, and like it's very, very simple, easy to explain. And then you're just you're just Playing and you're as a counselor, I'm playing too. I'm I'm into it, I'm being as competitive as I feel is appropriate for that. Again, setting the tone. And then the first one of the biggest opportunities that hopefully applies to everybody is the first kind of meal time, or if you're a day camp, maybe it's a snack time where you're sitting together. Something that I always have ready. I have this thing called dice breakers, which is just a sheet of paper with two with a big list of questions. And you roll two six-sided dice, two typical dice, you roll it and you answer the question that's there. And I have one ready for like teens, like preteens, youngers, and even little kids. I have that. And it's so simple because you're not asking the question. The dice are asking them the question. So I'll make sure I put links to all of those in the show notes for people to have. But it's just again, you're asking them questions, you're playing, and and you can start to set your expectations within those games too. You know, if if somebody, if a kid does something wild, you can just gently correct that and and keep playing, move forward and play the game. And but those are just some some ways. I think too often we think about our job is to like set those expectations really early, like the first thing. But any any person who's worked with kids for a long time tells you they're gonna respond to the playfulness to get started with. Um, but making sure though that there's some structure behind those things as well.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Yeah, no, that's amazing. I I loved all of that. I'm I'm taking notes from you. I this is it's cool. And and I love that like the dice breaker idea because I think what's cool is knowing kids, some of them might look at the sheet, you know, and be like, oh, I really hope I could question this, you know, and stuff like that. And and so there's a little bit of a nervous tension, a buzz around it, and and and you know, like I don't know, like when you have a group of kids and you're asking them questions and they're excited to answer them or excited to land on a certain question, it just it just adds to it, you know, and and yeah, as it as it sounds amazing. I I I I wholly recommend that. And just like you said, sometimes we want to rush into here, hi guys, here's the rules, here's what you do, here's what you don't, and it's like, hang on a second, let's have fun, you know, and something that you need to bring it back to constantly is this is a camp, this is summer camp, you know, and right, and regardless of the type of camp it is, we're we want to have fun. I'm doing this because I love kids, and you're doing this because you wanted to have organized, structured, fun where you could develop skills, you know, maybe you didn't go so that that deep into it, but but that's why you're here and that's why I'm here. And so let's look for opportunities where we can both achieve our missions.

SPEAKER_04 24:45

Yeah, that's great. Okay, so so Dane, let's let's move into you know when you want to start setting those expectations and you want to, you know, whether it's like the practical things we say to kids or you know how we start to address some of those growth areas that kids might need in the in the early times. What what is the thought process that we want counselors to have about what like setting the tone looks like of those expectations early on?

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Yeah, so uh great question. I think one of the things that's very, very true is a lot of children know most of the expectations. Now that actually becomes a pitfall for counselors because sometimes we get complacent. We say, Oh, they already know what my expectations are. And you know, camp directors that can go into camp directors' expectations of staff where like, oh, you've been here for X amount of years, you already know my expectations. But the truth is sometimes we forget, or sometimes our unique expectations are not the same as you know what our you know, our child or even our staff are expecting. And so it's very, very important to make sure that you're going through some of the non-negotiables and and how you're describing that. And so what we do is we have our kids in a kind of you know, round table and they just kind of you know say some of the rules and we frame them with positive language, and you know, there's there's that this doesn't have anything to do with how the rules, I guess, are received. It's lends itself to the safe space. When I create a safe space, I want everyone to understand that the safe space is for everyone. It means that the way we treat each other is a safe space. It means that you can count on me to help you navigate situations because it's a safe space. And so everything that comes out of those initial conversations is building towards why can you trust me? And a lot of times children, you know, they make up their opinions on on someone, much like adults, quite rapidly. You know, you have this window where kind of show me who you are, and then I can know how to, you know, my actions need to be moving forward. It's why you have some, you know, counsellors that can go into a cabin that's very, very challenging, but somehow feel like there's I don't know, the there's buy-in from the from the children very quickly. It's because of how they created a safe space. And creating a safe space involves rules. There has to be boundaries. Imagine if you're driving, you know, on the side of a of a cliff, and there's no line on the road to know which side you're supposed to be on, and there's no boundaries to go off the cliffs. And so you have these group of kids, and our job is how do I make this experience safe? It has to be with rules. So when you look at rules as boundaries and and and not restrictions, you don't want to go over the cliffs, so it's not a restriction, it's there for you. So, how do I how do I convey that? So, I'm gonna try and convey that by uh bringing the reason behind the rules. So, hey guys, what's one of the rules that we have in our group? Oh, this is you know not speaking when someone else is speaking, you know. Oh, yeah. Great. Before we go any further, why? Why is that a rule? Because I want to take advantage of any stupid rules that these kids have been following without ever knowing the reason why. Because part of the problem is that the older I find kids get, the more the why is important, and the less they understand the why, the the less they'll learn from the rule. And the rules, the boundaries, are there for them to learn from. It it's you'll hear the children saying similar things to you when talking to each other. Have you ever like eavesdropped on a conversation between like a group of kids kind of setting up a game of tag by themselves? It's amazing. I love it. I love overhearing and listening and trying not to be, you know, weird, but I'm kind of like trying to get my ear in there. But it's because I want to hear the way they speak to each other, I want to hear the way they navigate situations. Oh, look, someone keeps interrupting the kid who's leading the conversation. How do they navigate that? You know, and you're gonna see they're gonna start employing those rules that you've shared, particularly when you've given them the why. And the the why is going to go a long way in understanding the buy-in behind the rule. So I have my kids figuring out what my rules are. I'm saying, hey guys, what are the rules? As they're sharing the rules, I'm throwing it back to them. Why is that a rule? You know, and I'm making fun of myself because that's my background. I can't I can't go five seconds without making jokes. So I'm gonna say things like, Well, why is that a rule? What's wrong with throwing rocks at people, you know? And something that Amy Mults and I failed the time is, hey, was anyone like to join me for a game of rock tag? You know, and they're like, What? And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, we just whip rocks, and if you get hit with a rock, you're you're it. And they're like, What? And so I say to them, why would that not be fun? You know, why is that not like a good idea, you know? And and so it's important to to have a back and forth rather than a hey guys, what are the rules? Oh, we don't jump on the beds. Good rule.

SPEAKER_04 30:00

Yeah, why not? I I love the explaining the why and questioning it. Like I I think I I mean, the the you know, the rabble rouser in me is I I think questioning the rules is really important and understanding why those things are there, and and that will tell you a lot about how kids are processing these things because uh I I think oh, there's so many ways we could go with this. I I think one thing is that I think we expect sometimes that kids are going to be as like empathetic creatures as we are, but our our brains have taken a long time through the history of the world, but also it takes many years to get there where you genuinely care about others. And and camp is the perfect place to start to teach those lessons. I want to pick up on one thing too, Dane. You you said this, and I I want to take out the real practical skill behind it. You said that we frame our rules from a positive philosophy. Can you give me an example of what that looks like when a counselor is going through this this process?

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Yeah. Okay, so man, I I love talking about this match. I'm so excited. And so what we do is okay, so you know, you get your stuff and you're you're back in the cabin and it's you, and you've got this huge Bristol board, this poster board, and and and everything, we link it back to our three rules at Amy Molson, respect, cooperation, and safety. Now, you know, after 21 years, I can tell you there's very little thing, like very few things that can't fall under one of those umbrellas. Respect, cooperation, and safety. But what happens is the exact same thing that happens when you bring a group of kids together, you start trying to go over the rules, is that some of them who've experienced that harsh, restriction, restrictive discipline, they start saying what they think you want to hear. You know, and so when they say, All right, don't be rude to your counselor, listen when the counselor speaks every time, it's very the language is very is very intense, you know, it's very heavy, and you can know that they're echoing stuff that they've heard before. So I don't want to put too much weight on you, but as we work with kids, there's also a responsibility that we have to teach them in ways that they maybe should have been taught before, but haven't. And so when you're sitting there and you're saying, hey guys, what are the rules? and they're saying don't jump on the bed, I'm gonna say, hang on. Beds are fun to jump on. Why is it not cool to jump on a bed? And and we talk about respecting the the the property, the the the bed frame and stuff like that. It's not designed for it, and so the rules go from no jumping on the bed to beds are for sleeping, you know, and and so when we when we move into like, you know, oh listen to the the counselor at all times, you know, okay, that that sounds a little like you know, listen, you know, and so I want to change that. And it doesn't sound like it's super negative, but I just want to un I want them to understand why we listen. So listen to my counselor with respect as my counselor listens to me with respect. And so a little something like that, just because it's not a top-down model, it's not one-way respect either. And that again is a very old school archaic mentality. Bless me, I've worked with many older childcare professionals, and there's this idea: I am the boss, I am your god as far as you're concerned. Do what I say. And so, you know, these children go through the the school systems, and for sure they come into contact with someone like that, and so they think that that's what you want to hear. And so it could be very easy to say, no jumping on the bed, perfect, no jumping on the bed, no disrespect, perfect, no respect, no disrespect. But working with kids is about teaching kids and using every opportunity is as an opportunity to to teach them and to leave them with something that they can then go and take on with them. And so, you know, something I say at school all the time, because I'm always outside for recess. I say, they say the kids say, Are you a teacher? And I say, Yeah, I teach, and my class is recess. There is a right way to recess, and there is a wrong way to recess, but I'm also out here teaching just as much as anyone else, you know, and so that's something that I I want to make sure we're we're addressing, you know. Don't just be excited that they're chiming in and giving you a rule, just you know, take two seconds and frame it positively because the rule exists for their safety. Again, it's not restrictions, it's boundaries, you know, and and boundaries for safety purposes.

SPEAKER_04 34:26

Yeah, I I love that. I uh okay, so we we've got like the foundation, we've kind of framed these these rules. Now rubber is starting to hit the road. And when we when you and I, Dan were texting back and forth about this episode, you said there's the letter of the law, and then there's a framework around that. So how how does that work in your head? And and what is what does that mean to you? What does that mean at Amy Molson? How does that play out? What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Yeah, so this is really, really cool. A lot of camps offer kind of some kind of some policies and rules and expectations of the campers, same as you know, in schools and stuff like that. And a lot of times those frameworks are designed for you to have a place to move forward from. What does that mean? Well, it's uh do I have a I don't have a great metaphor or analogy right now, but but essentially what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to not blindly stick to what's written on paper. I'm trying to adapt it to the situation. Now, when we come up with our rules, when we come up with our standards and our policies and stuff like that, basically what we're saying is this is a known problem area. This is how we've decided to address it. And that's it. That's that's what we're doing. Okay. And so my responsibility is now, and and I don't think counselors realize how much onus, how much they have like a part to play in enforcing that, but not enforcing it blindly. It doesn't make sense to enforce it blindly, and it actually starts to take away from that safe space. Oh man, the amount of stories I have of situations that have happened at school where we're on the playground and we're trying to navigate a situation, and I know what the rule is, but I also know who this child is. And so, okay, I agree. Obviously, I picked the most relatable thing to summer camp, um, but you're not allowed to throw snowballs. Okay. Now, if you throw snowball, you're supposed to get like, you know, you're supposed to miss like a bunch of recess or whatever it is, okay? Now, if that was the case, if I was just throwing kids on the wall for for, you know, hey, you're on timeout, you're on timeout, you're on timeout for throwing snowballs. I don't know that I'm gonna get my my rule across. And what I'm trying to do is I I don't have a snowball rule because I don't like fun, I have a snowball rule that lends itself to safety. So instead, what I'm gonna do is I'm going to pull aside campers when they break the rule and we're gonna have a conversation about it. Now, I know what the rule is. Maybe they don't, or maybe they forgot, or maybe they got caught up in the moment, they could benefit from a reminder. And so when you have the the the letter of the law that says this is the consequence, if you blindly follow it, you lose a little bit of the the dialogue. And so if I just say, hey, you did this, here's your consequence, I'm missing every good thing to do with discipline. Responding to a uh broken rule is important, but at the same time, having a conversation about it also. Hey, I couldn't help but notice you're over there throwing a ton of snowballs. Can we talk about that? What is going on? And are you familiar with the rules out here? And then we're gonna talk about it, you know? And hey Dane, you know, I'm sorry, he threw it at me, I threw it back. I I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to throw it in that area. I wasn't throwing it at a person. Either way, we're talking, and that conversation says, hey, you matter. I'm not this big authoritarian, you know, figure that's just like, no, you did this, and here's the consequence. I'm not just slapping them down, I'm discussing it. That two seconds that we take to discuss might limit the amount of conversations I have to have about this in the future. But if I just swap it down, you know, swat it down, I should say, then yeah, I'm I'm I'm I might be back here again, you know, and I I might need to just enforce the rule because I didn't have that conversation. So when you establish rules, when you figure out what your cabin rules are and how they align with the camp rules and your expectations, we absolutely need to understand that that is a guideline and a framework. And so that's gonna help us navigate things moving forward, but it doesn't mean that I just grab that blindly. That becomes a very passive, a childcare working, very passive discipline because you're not putting any intentionality into it, you're not putting any thought, you just kind of like bam, here it is, you know, and it's easier, but it's not better. It's actually in many cases harm harmful, right?

SPEAKER_04 39:06

I I that's so smart. And and I always think about you know, you as a counselor listening to this, you might not, you probably aren't the person determining the policies and the rules. Like you don't get to determine whether they can throw snowballs or not, and you should follow the rules and make sure you're you're following the rules. But I think what Dane's saying is so is so important. Usually I I don't think that camps usually get to the point where they they have the like you have to go sit against the wall. Like they don't usually determine what the consequences are of the things, they just tell you what the rules are. Hopefully. Now, if you do what you need to do, we don't want you to get in trouble as a counselor for not enforcing what your camp says, but hopefully there's some flexibility in that of even your initial conversation. What Dane is suggesting is not to let behavior go, it's to treat consequences as that teaching opportunity you have with kids. Because if you if you think about what Dane said, he wasn't saying you're just letting them throw snowballs, you're still directly addressing that behavior and and uh and having a conversation, you know, whether this is good or bad, having just pulling a kid aside to have a conversation, their understanding that that is a consequence enough. That an adult figure, someone leading them, is intervening in the situation. They understand that what they've done is wrong. You're giving them that check-in spot. But the plus one to that, the the thing that makes this a first-class counselor move is that you're using that to not diminish the relationship. You're not telling a kid that they're a bad person, you're not assuming they broke the rules for bad intent. You're not even really getting into like the it's okay to hear about why they did something. I I really hate when people are like, oh, there's no excuse for that behavior. I was like, of course there is. There's always a reason behind a kid does every single thing. Yeah. And your job is not to pass judgment on that reason, it's just so that they understand that, hey, I think you're a great person and we're not gonna throw snow anymore. And you know, that and that is going to be the perfect first step. Now, if it keeps happening, which 95% of the time it's not going to, then that's the opportunity where we'll use some level two skills that we can we can talk a little bit about later. But you know, I I think it's I think about that as just the opportunity to maintain that relationship with kids is so important. And camp is one of those places that is so unique, right? You're not a teacher. Sometimes you'll be you might be a teacher, you might that age gap might be truly like adult and kid, but counselors typically, you know, you're you're only you're less than 10 years older than them in a lot of cases. And uh I think that when someone does something that you need to correct, the way that you do it is so instructive about what your like how that relationship is gonna be with that kid moving forward, and about what you think about them and like their voice and their choice and their story behind their behavior. So for instance, what you're gonna a hundred times a week encounter with kids is them saying something rude to another kid, something just unkind out of out of reaction or reflection or whatever you want. But there's a difference between saying, hey, we don't do that here, and hey Caden, that doesn't build River self-esteem. Can you pick something else to say if you're pissed? Like, and then move on, right? Like that it's a quick intervention, but when we say things like we don't do that here, you're telling, like, think about what the subtext is. You're telling that kid that they're an outsider and that the way they're behaving doesn't make them feel included as part of the community. So just I I think the practical thing is as we build this toolkit together over next episode, certainly, is what are we saying? What is the story that we're telling that kid as we're intervening in that behavior? And and if that story is still, or I think what we should aspire to is that the behavior is separate to who they are as a person and the value that they have. And you can't, and and this goes right back to the top of the episode. You can't say that to them. You have to show it to them, you have to show them that their behavior is separate than who they are and their place in the community. Yeah, Dane, I'll give you the last word on this before we move on to our angle because I think we could talk about this for hours and hours. Forever.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

Yeah. So I think when when I kind of summarize, you know, everything that we've been discussing and and my mind, you know, set around these things is it's the equivalent of you know, asking a classroom, you know, what's one plus one? You know, and and when a kid says the wrong answer, kind of just ignoring that it's wrong or just saying, no, that's not good, you know, and just moving on instead of using it as an opportunity. To teach, you know, when you move into something like history or English and you're teaching it, and you ask the kids at large, hey, what's what's the answer to this? And they're gonna give a guess, they're gonna try, they're gonna make an attempt. Now, what am I gonna do with that attempt? Am I going to just say no, that's not it and move on? Or am I going to say, Oh, I see where you're going with that. Okay, this is where we went off the off the grid, you know, or where we went off the map or off the road or whatever you want. And so that's my opportunity to teach, you know, and and to neglect it, to just say no, to say that's not right, to say that's not okay. It it you miss out on a huge chunk. And and that chunk is incredibly valuable. That chunk is what I I get excited to wake up in the morning for because I think that these conversations is what builds relationship. And the first thing you do when you want to deal with discipline, when you are put in a position where I get to enforce discipline, I I look at it rather as I get to teach my kids so that as they go on, they experience more and more success. Um, there's there's too many other l layers to this that I could I could talk about and I don't want to get off track, but but ultimately, every moment you have with your child, you have an opportunity to teach them. As you're teaching them, the others are watching and they're learning too. And so, you know, it's it's less about the words saying the things that you know matter to you. Hey guys, I want to create a safe space, I really care about you, I want you to be safe, I want you to learn, and it's about the doing of those things. And the doing of those things for me is intricately tied up with discipline. The more I discipline, the the closer relationships I feel like I've had. I one quick quick story. So working at campus school, the elementary school is is is always hilarious. And some of the teachers and parents have said to me, I don't understand it. The kids really, really love you. They're they they run, they share their successes with you, you know, they they talk to you when they're going through a hard time, but you give out more consequences than kind of anyone, any 10 people in this building combined. How do you give out all these consequences? You know, and and how these intentional conversations where you're sharing expectations and all that. How do you do that? But they still, you know, run to you first, and it's because they see the love in my action. The bounce back is quick. I don't hold it against them. This is class, and I'm here to teach. Hey, it's okay. We all make mistakes. Sometimes I laugh and I say, bro, I made a mistake too, you know. I did this wrong today. But that is why they they see that I'm not just another person standing over them, condemning them, but rather that I'm someone that's coming alongside them and saying, Well, that wasn't cool. But why wasn't it cool? What could we do differently? How can I help? Is there anything I can do to help you with this? You know, and anyways, from there on, you know, it's it it changes the nature of the relationship. And now that child, when they do something wrong, yeah, I don't want to say they're happy to talk to you about it, but they understand the process that you've set up and they're saying now, oh, if I do something wrong, you know, I might have a conversation with Dane about it, and he might kind of break down what was going on, and there might be a consequence, it might just be that conversation. It we'll see, and it depends on the situation. Some things you can just address and some with a conversation, and some things you need to go a little further than that, but it's ultimately about saying every time I'm with my kids, class is in session, how will I teach today? And what does that teaching look like? And the more you do it, I think the more it fosters love and relationship. When you combine a lot of the things that we put together here, now the kids are not, you know, afraid of discipline. Discipline comes from, I can't remember, I think it's a a a Greek or Latin word, but but it literally comes from uh the word to teach. And so we've come and we've made discipline punitive and we give punishment. Punishment is not there to teach, discipline is there to teach. And some of the things in society are not there to teach, for example, if you speed and you get a ticket, that's you know, the lesson is if you do this, you're gonna have to give us money, kind of thing. But we have an opportunity to use these as not punitive measures, but as teaching measures, and you won't go wrong. And sometimes I think we think we'll lose sight of the big picture, like, oh, if I if I don't give them a harsh consequence, they'll just come back again. And it's not true. Think about you know, when you were a kid, think about like the situations that were addressed with you and the situations you learned from versus the situations you just scared you were just scared from, you know. And we're not trying to, you know, put these kids through this fearful, terrifying experience where they're like, I won't break the rule because I'm afraid, rather, I won't break the rule because I understand the rule, and the rule is there to help me as much as it is to help the next guy, you know, and so anyways, it's it it you you start to see as you're moving forward, you start to see breakthrough, you start to see understanding, you start to see more of a collaborative model. Kids start saying things like, When I'm upset, I need to go speak to my counselor, he's really good at listening to me. And it's it's because when you're angry and you break a rule, uh say 70% of the time, you know, maybe you were looking for attention, or maybe you were looking for love, or maybe you're looking for support, or maybe for the first time in your life you're with an adult who actually cares about what happens to you and the things you do. And and it breaks my heart when we do discipline wrong because it just creates this this fear factor connected to to to to consequences when it really should be like uh oh yeah, no, you know, the same way I got my six questions right on my math test and four wrong. The goal of the math test is for you to get those four right next time, you know. The goal of discipline is for you to get it right next time, it's not to to to hurt you and harm you.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:59

Yeah, I that is the perfect place to end it on. Dane. Okay, so we are gonna go on to our ever-growing and ever-learning section. So this is a tip, a trick, a game, or a song. Doesn't have to be related to the episode at all, but it's something that counselors can use to get better every day or prepare for camp this summer. I'll start with mine, Dane, then I'll toss it over to you. We've done a lot of different things on here, and so we no surprise to our listeners when I say a weird thing, and that is a good pair of socks. I cannot tell you, maybe this is just me talking in my 30s now, but something that I wish I had when I was a counselor is just a really I wore sandals a lot, but when it comes to wearing like your shoes, you're going on a hike, having good socks is just so important. So I will shout out, we don't have a brand deal with them yet. Maybe one day we will, but I will shout out if you're American, darn tough socks are super great. They have a uh a policy where you can, if you wear a hole in them, you pay for the shipping fees to send it to their office and they'll ship you back a brand new pair. So that's one of those like buy it for life kind of mentalities that I I really like. They're a little more expensive, but with the wear and tear of camp will definitely put a hole in them, and then you can just get a new pair, which is great. If you're Canadian and you want to buy uh Canadian socks, there's a company called Great Socks, all one word, and we'll I'll link to these in the show notes. That's similar. I think they have a one-year policy. They're made in Canada, they're super comfy and they're great. So just get yourself a good pair of socks and your feet'll thank you at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

That's awesome. I might I might take you up on those. Those sound like a great idea.

SPEAKER_04 51:34

Um need a referral code. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:38

I think for I think for me, I think one of the things that I think is very helpful for camp is to bring a game that fits in your pocket. And so I'll use Uno as an example. But a lot of times it's it's just fun to be weird at camp. And one of the things about being a camp and creating safe spaces and all that is making the kids see like that I'm not afraid to have fun or be weird or be goofy, you know? And so something that I used to do is I used to walk around with a pack of Uno cards. And when I say a pack of Uno cards, I mean like the the proper full stack, the one that shouldn't fit in a pair of like jeans, and I would put those in my jeans, and so you'd have this like huge, huge bulge here on the side, and I would just take out my Uno cards, and my kids would be like, Okay, like we're gonna play Uno in any downtime, you know? And I just would make it fun by doing the leaderboard, you know, and and that for me, I I I don't know, I I like competition, and so for me, I think when I, you know, sit down with my kids and we're like, okay, the bell's gonna ring in seven minutes. Uno, and we just kind of sit down wherever we are, you know, whether it's on the the dock at boating or whether it's in the park, you know, and we're just sitting in the sand and we're just having this intense game. They also have so many different kinds of Uno right now, and so it's really fun to just kind of get like two, two, three different kinds and never tell the kids which ones you have specifically, you know, and just kind of mix it up, you know, just switch it. And then any chance you get, just kind of sitting down. What that's gonna do is it's constantly bringing your kids together, they're playing together, it becomes something exclusive to your cabin. And I could talk for hours about how do we make our cabin special. And so this makes your cabin unique. This is not what every cabin is doing it, and so everyone's got their own thing. This is our thing. We whip out Uno and we play it wherever, whenever. And then try and start being weird with it, you know, start bringing out those Uno cards at even weirder moments, you know, be in the middle of the lake on a boat and have like a deck going, you know, where you're playing, you know, on someone's boat, and you're like, what did you play? You know, and someone's gonna paddle close. Put the game on, you know, like it's all these little things that just make it special, right? And so that's why you bring in the leaderboard, you bring in this desire to, hey, okay, we're gonna take 50 photos of us playing Uno this year, this this summer in the weirdest places. Make sure you guys have your eyes open, you know, and and maybe they're they're I don't know. I I I don't know. They're you know, they're they're in the showers and they're they're yelling out, I played an eight. You know, little things like that, or it's just fun, and it's it becomes a fun, memorable story. And then they go back to the city, and anytime they see, you know, they they think of camp and they think of how weird their counselor was and how he was willing to play. And it really doesn't even matter if you like the game and it can be any game, you know, you do it with Connect 4, but yeah, it's fun to just kind of make a thing.

SPEAKER_04 54:39

Yeah, thanks. Well, Dane, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. If Dane, if folks want to follow up with you or have any like questions or inspiration, what's what's a good way that they can reach out to you?

SPEAKER_02 54:51

Yeah, definitely. I think my my email address is gonna be in like the show notes, and and and that would be a great way for people to reach out. I'm also on on Facebook, uh, and so the only person still left. But but I'm also available there. And and you know, if if there's some other platform, I probably use it. And and so you can kind of reach out, and whatever's the best way for you to communicate, I I'm super down to communicate because I think as you could see, I love talking about this. So I would genuinely be happy if someone reached out and said, I have some questions about discipline. I would say, yes, you know, like that's the weird stuff that gets me excited because yeah, there's just so much to say on this, and there's so many things that we can do right.

SPEAKER_04 55:31

Yeah, I I agree. And folks, uh, we'll know if you listen to this, you can check out our show notes and the we'll we'll link to all of the great little resources and tools and things that we talked about in this episode. But there's also a little link at the top of each of our show notes that says have some feedback, a topic suggestion, text us. And so from your phone, you can just send a text message and that'll come right to me and we can connect with Dane or we can we can draw on those more. We've really put a lot of episodes into first class counselors because of suggestions like yours. So please feel free to do that. If you have a topic suggestion or you want to just say how great Dane was on the podcast, please reach out. That would be great. And don't forget that you can find those show notes wherever you get your podcast in the podcast platform, or you can find everything at gocamp.pro slash Fcc. There's lots of good stuff there and from our show and the other go camp pro shows out there. And don't forget, camp is camp and camps all good.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

First class counselors is brought to you by Beth and Travis Allison, Summer Camp Leadership Training and Marketing Consultants. Thanks for listening, friends.

SPEAKER_04 56:44

Hey Camp Ros, we love that our industry is built on sharing. In order to foster that spirit, we hope that whenever you share an idea that you learn from the Camp Hacker Podcast, conference, summer camp professionals group, or wherever else, that you're quick to give credit where credit is due. That way, we can all encourage more camp pros to share the tips and tricks that will make camp better.