First Class Counselors

Camp counselors have the most important job at summer camp. Period. A great camp staff will have kids wanting to come back to camp year after year. First Class Counsellors is here to make great camp staff. Each week, we’ll cover practical and accessible tips that will level up your camp counselor skills. Our two hosts, Oliver Gregan, Summer and Families Camp Director at YMCA Camp Jewell and Matt Honsberger from Go Camp Pro are excited to be able to provide this resource to camp counselors.

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First Class Counselors

Be Better at Giving Consequences - with Dane Savoury - First Class Counselors #83

April 09, 2026 • First Class Counsellors - from Go Camp Pro • Episode 83

0:00 | 1:00:27

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Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/first-class-counselors-pod/be-better-at-giving-consequences

Teaching Through Consequences Instead of Punishment

Join Matt and Dane as they dive into part two of their masterclass on summer camp discipline. This episode shifts the focus from general headspace to the practical application of consequences and the art of camper reintegration. They explore how counselors can move away from punitive winning mindsets and instead use every mistake as a teaching opportunity that builds trust rather than breaking it. From navigating power struggles to deciding which hills are actually worth dying on, this conversation provides frontline staff with the tools they need to maintain a positive cabin environment all summer long.

Key Takeaways:

Focus on Teaching Rather Than Hurting. Effective consequences are designed to help a camper learn emotional regulation and social skills rather than simply making them feel bad. When a counselor enters a situation with a teaching mindset they are more likely to remain calm and help the child understand how to make better choices in the future.
Drop the Rope to Avoid Power Struggles. Power struggles occur when both the staff member and the camper are pulling against each other to see who will submit. By practicing self regulation and consciously choosing to drop the rope the counselor remains the adult in the situation and prevents a conflict from escalating into a relationship damaging battle.
Use the Three Buckets of Behavior to Prioritize Interventions. Not every action requires a heavy consequence. Categorizing behaviors into typical actions, safety concerns, and the “f it” bucket allows staff to conserve their energy for what truly matters while letting go of minor issues like mismatched socks or harmless quirks.

E.G.E.L – Ever Growing, Ever Learning:

Dane: Taking FUN Cabin Photos

Matt: DnD Dice

Sponsors:

Ultracamp
Camp is about changing lives, not chasing paperwork. Ultracamp builds tools that make camp smoother for today's camp counselor and tomorrow's camp leader. Learn more at https://ultracampmanagement.com/firstclass

Host Links:

Matt Wilfrid, Executive Producer of Podcasting at Go Camp Pro
Dane Savoury, Director of Operations, Camp Amy Molson. Contact Email.

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I always say, you know, kids have street cred, and so when you just embarrass them in front of everyone, I mean there's a good chance it's not gonna go well. Discipline reflects love and care. When I care, I give a consequence and we converse about it because the whole point is not the consequence, the whole point is the teaching, the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

This is First Class Counselors, another innovative podcast brought to you by Camp Hacker. First Class Counselors is dedicated to young and up-and-coming camp efforts. By equipping and empowering our on-the-ground staff, camp directors can rest easy knowing that our campers are having the true life-changing experience that parents expect. Find our show notes and our blog for camp leaders and professionals at camphacker.tv.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Camp is about changing lives, not chasing paperwork. Ultracamp builds tools that make camp smoother. For today's camp counselor and tomorrow's camp leader, learn more at ultracampmanagement.com slash first class counselor. Welcome to First Class Counselors, where we give camp counselors insider tips and advice on how to make a camper summer the best it can be. And whether you are brand new to the camp world or you have listened to part one of our discussion here and you're like, oh, I gotta get some more, you know that a growth mindset is built into the DNA of every great staff member, or as we say it here, every great first class counselor. And another hello from our good friend Oliver. Oliver, I hope you are doing well, digging out of the rest of the snow and getting ready for the season. But if we haven't met yet, my name is Matt Wilfred. My pronouns are he, him, and I'm the executive producer of podcasting and a consultant with GoCamp Pro. And welcome back to part two of this incredible discussion that we are having with our good friend Dane Savory. Dane, how are you? Welcome back.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

I'm great. I'm I'm glad to be here. I've never been so happy to talk about discipline.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Yes, if you miss part one of this conversation, I I definitely suggest you go back and listen. But if you are one of those people that are jumping in at this point, well, let's catch you up a little bit and then we'll jump into this episode's topic. So last time Dane and I talked about discipline and why understanding discipline in a different way helps us be amazing camp folks, but also really sets our industry as the summer camp industry apart. We have such an awesome ability to have these cool relationships with kids because generally we're closer in age to campers than you know, teachers or parents typically to campers. So we want to really elevate every part of how we work with those kids. And when we think about discipline differently, we give ourselves the ability to like teach and to be really intentional with how we're working with kids as they're developing their emotional regulation and their skills to exist in community. So we're bringing Dane back here today to go into one specific part of discipline, and that is consequences. Now, not every action has a consequence that you need to deal out, or maybe that consequence kind of happens naturally with kids, right? You stand up on a bench, sometimes you fall over. But we're gonna talk about a little bit of a part two. So when the behaviors may be a little bit bigger, and there is some sort of consequence that needs to be a part of this. And we say this almost every episode, but sometimes your camp will have a way that they want you to manage consequences. But Dane and I are going to really zoom in on the ways that you can think about consequences and how to maybe reframe some of those instincts and some of the great first steps that you can take and how to help campers after the consequence get kind of back into the action as quick as possible and treat all of this in a really camper-centric way and in a way that empowers those campers to make good decisions in the future. So, Dane, welcome back. Tell me a little bit about why you felt that like consequences were such an important part of this conversation that we're doing a whole part two about it. Where does that come into your headspace when it comes to working with kids at camp?

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Yeah, no, I hear you. I I think last week we needed to understand the headspace that goes into discipline. I think we needed to kind of unlearn a lot of bad habits, a lot of things that maybe we've experienced growing up as kids that we've inadvertently included in our own discipline tactics. So last week was the unlearning period, and now we're gonna zero in on the part that can be very challenging to navigate, which is the consequences. Why am I giving this as a consequence? What is the purpose of this consequence? What's the outcome? Does it make sense? And there's a lot of ways where emotions can kind of steer the ship on on consequences, and when emotions steer the ship on consequences, we lose logic, we lose intellectual thinking about how am I gonna go about this. It starts to get messy, and sometimes we don't even realize it's messy. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 5:04

I totally and and it's emotions on our part and the kids' part, right? We're we're all just like navigating this. If you're not, if you haven't done this over and over and over, it it starts to like the big power struggle that can happen is is real. So I I think it's great. So we're gonna chat about the kind of the what's the headspace we need to be in regarding consequences? Then we'll talk about why sometimes it can go like off the rails on both ends, and what do we need to do? And then when the dust is settled and we're in a good place, how do we get a camper back into it? So, Dane, let's let's get started. What do we need to be thinking about? Like this is our processing time before we get into a consequence situation. What is the headspace that our that counselors need to be in before they even get to that consequence phase? How do you like navigate what's a consequence? How do we do it? When's the right time? What's your philosophy around that?

SPEAKER_02 5:57

Yeah, great. So I think maybe for me, one of the things that we want to start with above all else is we we want to try and have an understanding of what kind of behaviors and situations are gonna come up that we might have to deal with. There's nothing stopping us from starting to think now about the things we might deal with. Now, everyone is gonna get thrown for a loop by the camper that does something where there's no existing rule for. That's okay. We're not talking about that right now. Right now, we're talking about the things that we expect to face. So from from right from the the onset, I think for me, we need to start to say, what kind of behaviors am I gonna see? You know, and I'm sure Matt, you can you can think of the the common stuff that you you experienced all the time. And and then when you start getting into that framework of mind, you can start to say, okay, what what makes sense?

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yeah, I I agree. I think, you know, it's I think as you're navigating this too, it's what are your like personal triggers as well? What is gonna make you start to feel uncomfortable? And then combining that with, you know, what is your cabin agreed on in that cabin contract, right? Kids have this way, I think we all have this way, but kids especially have this way of telling on themselves. Like when they put something in that cabin contract, they're like, you know, always respect each other's stuff. That's either because they've had an experience where somebody has gone through their stuff, or maybe they're like, oh, they're kind of foreshadowing what you might approach. So that's kind of thing, the thing that I would think about. I know for me, you know, my triggers when it comes to behavior is totally when kids are being mean to each other and when a kid does something and another kid says stop and the kid keeps doing it, that whole like consent thing really like hits my brain. So that's where I'm gonna be kind of on alert that I'm gonna have to start thinking about either does this need to be a consequence or is it is it something I'm gonna let play out? That's how I navigate it. How about you? What what behaviors for you are like top of mind when it comes to like we're in the consequence realm?

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Yeah, so for me, disrespect is a is a huge one. And I think I think sometimes I think when I was younger, the disrespect piece was connected to pride, and I think it was like you're embarrassing me in front of you know the rest of the kids. But over time, I think disrespect is just it feels like you are uninterested in hearing what I have to say, and that disrespect transcends, you know, the counselor-camper relationship to how they interact with each other. It's very rare that I have a camper that's incredibly disrespectful to me and very respectful to his peers. And so it's not about me personally, it's just about creating safe spaces for our campers to be able to kind of communicate to each other safely and effectively, you know, and I think that that kind of goes along with what you're saying a little bit about the stop, you know? And and so, yeah, if you're not gonna stop when I say stop, you're probably not gonna stop when your your peers say stop either.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

So right. Okay, so we've we've identified some of the behaviors that between the cabin contract and ourselves. How do you think about like what are some rules that you have for yourself when you think about developing a consequence or like what that actually might look like? How did and you know, our pride is being affected here, and we have all those other things in in our heads. So, what are some like tenets that you come back to when it comes to developing consequences?

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Yeah, so that's a great question. Again, this kind of stuff is able to be thought about right now. I think sometimes we want to know how we can prepare for camp. This is one of those things we can start setting our mind to in advance, you know. We don't need to wait till the camper's boots on the ground for us to start thinking like this. One of the first things for me is uh the the rule of thumb for me is what am I trying to, what am I trying to teach? Uh instead of how can I make this hurt, how can I make this feel memorable and they'll never do it again because this is such an intense consequence. What am I what am I teaching? What what what am I, you know, this is my class, you know, and and this is my, you know, I am the teacher of of doing the right things or think uh going about things the right way. So my first thing is what am I trying to teach?

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yeah. I I I think that is so important. And consequences feel, I mean, inherently they are a power dynamic. You as a a leader, someone who has a power relationship, is giving that to a kid. And and I don't think anyone listening would be like, oh yeah, I want to hurt when I do it. But I think sometimes the default is, well, I'm the counselor, so they need to listen. So it doesn't even matter what kind of consequence I give, I'm gonna do it and they're gonna listen. Well, in the next section, we'll talk about when that doesn't work. But I mean, if we're having that teaching mindset, how do we want the camper to feel 10 minutes from now, 15 minutes from now? And if we go in with that mindset, then we know that it's not necessarily about punitive. But our goal here is that A, the behavior, you know, is less likely to happen again. I won't say doesn't happen again because I think that's a poor goal to set for yourself, that it's just not going to happen after one consequence. I think though, realistically, we want to lower the frequency of it happening again, and we want there to be a teaching opportunity. We want that camper to come out the other side of whatever we're about to do, understanding themselves a little bit better. And that might be the way their, you know, emotions are processing a situation. Maybe they identify an emotion that they've never really understood before. Oh, this is what disappointment feels like. Oh, this is what shame feels like. Oh, this is what anger feels like. And it's okay to feel those things. We're just gonna help them regulate those emotions. And and and that seems like really kind of philosophical and lofty things. And it's not like we're giving that camper a psychology lesson about themselves, but through this positive way of interacting with them, we have the ability to do that. And a camper's not gonna like go home and tell whoever's at home, they're like, oh, I learned about how to positively regulate myself. But the the best chance that in the best case scenario, and I think what actually happens from camp is that kids go home and they have that connection piece. Oh, at camp, I was able to do this, and I was corrected. They're not they shouldn't remember the hurt feelings of being disciplined or could or the consequence, they should have that behind in the back of their mind, oh, I can regulate myself, or oh, I can approach this in a way that's gonna make other people feel good, it's gonna make myself feel good, and still have my needs met. So I I really love that that teaching thing, I think is so fundamental for everything else.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

And it it changes everything, right? So if my first thought process is how do I, what how do I teach this child something from this, I'm gonna embody a lot more of the headspace of of a teacher in that moment. And same as with the teacher, it means I might need to repeat this, you know, it means that I might need to follow up, but it also means I should give positive reinforcement when I see that there is growth that comes out of this. So it means I'm not my discipline, it is not a one one and done situation. This is starting a conversation, identifying an issue that we are working together so that it becomes an area of growth for them, which means I'm gonna follow up, I'm gonna give that reinforcement, and I'm gonna mention it in the things that I see moving on. So again, it's it's really we have to move past this, like, oh, you're in trouble, you have a timeout, yeah, don't do it again. And and now this is something where, oh wow, hey, just so you know, Billy, I saw that you know, you really tried this afternoon, and I saw that you were using some of the things that we talked about. It's really, really fun, and it starts to move away from this heavy, oppressive feeling of giving consequences because everyone says the same thing. I hate giving consequences, I hate giving consequences, it's the worst. I don't want to be mean, but yeah, so starting from how am I gonna teach this, it's it's already just now I'm now I'm excited to go into it.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Yeah, yeah. Dane, when we were talking about this episode, uh, you really wanted to stress developmentally appropriate consequences, and and I think developmentally appropriate behavior. That classic, you know, probably every camp staff goes through like a these are the ages and stages of the kids that we're gonna be working with. But from a consequence standpoint, I think sometimes we don't talk about how we need to be flexible with that when it comes to the the age group. Tell me a little bit about how you teach staff and and how you approach, you know, having this philosophy when it comes to working with different age groups.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Yeah, no, it's a great point. And so yeah, we we we understand, I think on a fundamental level that what we're gonna see in behaviors and what we're gonna see in consequences cannot be the same for a five-year-old to a nine-year-old to a 12-year-old to a 15-year-old, you know. And so what does that like adaptation look like? Well, I, you know, always talk to my staff about how, you know, a five to seven-year-old, you know, five-minute timeout is very painful. You know, as as quickly as time can pass for others, for little kids, the the longer the the time, the more like kind of painful it is. And and five minutes is a long time, you know, and so if you're pulling them aside and they're missing five minutes from an activity, that that whole five minutes, they're gonna be squirming, they're gonna be thinking about how much fun everyone else is having. There it might even be feelings of embarrassment that they're not able to participate. And so you have to kind of uh build yourself a scale, I guess, in what makes sense for a five-year-old and seven-year-old and nine-year-old. You have to look at it from that perspective. Now, that's not to say we're gonna give five minutes for a five-year-old and like 45 minutes to uh yeah, 12-year-old, you know. It doesn't ramp up exponentially like that. But but we are gonna understand that if I'm giving too long, then I'm losing my lesson and I'm also making it hurt so much that the priority of the consequence is the pain that the child felt instead of the lesson. And it's just that easy. It's just that easy. You just you go over the top just a little bit and you don't realize it, and now all of a sudden, this is the worst day of their life because they missed so much swimming instead of I learned how to use my hands with others, I learned how to speak to others.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

I it's so important, and I think you know, for most people, the camp experience is so short too that that missing out on something can feel devastating because maybe they do only have one archery session all week. And if they miss that, then that's that's brutal and that's hard. And and I think that's totally reasonable for a kid to feel that way. And and I I think sometimes we forget to be reasonable when it comes to those types of things, and it's not we're not talking about letting behaviors go. Like we talked about that in the last episode. It's it's not about not addressing them, but it's doing it appropriately. And I I think I don't think this is just my personal statement. I don't think taking away something is ever an appropriate consequence for for any age. Unless a camper is being truly like unsafe with something, and they and you've given them lots of opportunities and and they are just like completely endangering themselves or others. That's that's on the more extreme scale. But you know, we're we're never like withholding food, we're never threatening to withhold something in the future. You know, there's better ways that we can do it. And and Oliver and I have talked a lot about in this season some of those ideas, and and we've talked about like ages and stages and stuff. So I'll make sure in the show notes you get the links to those episodes. Uh there's a couple good resources out there about what is like age-appropriate, you know, behavior. I'm not gonna say misbehavior because it's just behavior, and we'll put those in there for you to learn because I think we could we could do more, we could do a whole season on ages and stages and behaviors and consequences. Hey, first class counselors, listeners, listen up. Ultracamp has a free resource just for you. That's right, the frontline staff, the counselor's survival checklist, packed with tips on communication, time management, camper care, all of those practical things that we talk about on the podcast all the time. Great counselors often become great directors, and the habits you build now will set you up for that path. Ultracamp is designed to make camp life easier. Things like keeping schedules and assignments organized, helping leaders communicate clearly with staff, making sure families stay informed so that you can focus on the campers. When camp runs smoothly, you can grow into the leader you were meant to be. Check it out at ultracampmanagement.com/slash first class. I want to before we we get into like kind of escalating things a little bit, I want to just remind folks, we've said this a lot this season, but all behavior is communication, right? Every time a camper is doing something, they are communicating a need that they have. And campers, especially younger ones, but I mean, in in every age before you're 25 years old and your frontal lobe is somewhat fully developed, as they say, you are communicating, you know what? Scratch that. Even as an adult, all of your behavior is communicating your needs, right? So if you can go into like what does that camper need in this moment, what are they really itching for? Is it belonging? Is it safety? Is it you know, security, that their their things are theirs? And then we go in with that teaching mindset, I think we're setting ourselves up for success. And and thinking about it, I my favorite is the the iceberg metaphor, right? How big icebergs are under the water. That's what we see on top of that iceberg is the kids' actions. That's above the water. We see what they're saying, what they're doing. Underneath is what they're feeling, how they were raised, what their background is, do they have a trauma in their life? Like there's so much, especially that we don't see in the short time we see them at camp. So we have to just be super respectful that we don't know what is going on in that kid's life behind that. So if we're curious about what do they need, how can I teach them? And also how can I, you know, maintain that positive relationship with them? How am I feeling and how am I approaching the child when it comes to this initial part of the consequence? If we can have those kind of three things in mind, then I think we're setting ourselves up for success.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Yeah, absolutely. I love I love what you said about. I mean, it's obvious to not take food away, I think, at this point, but something else that something that happens at at school sometimes is sometimes, you know, the teachers or you know, the principal and stuff like that, they consider taking away like a special outing or something. To which I always say the same thing. I say, but that doesn't make any sense. If there was no outing, what would the consequence be? You know, and so just because they made a mistake the day before a big, exciting, fun trip doesn't change the way that you're gonna give a consequence. Again, it's about teaching, not about capitalizing on opportunities to really drive a point home. No, the consequence is the consequence, regardless of what tomorrow is. And so you have to have something that makes sense all the time. And and so, yeah, it's it's it's very I understand and I understand where it's coming from that kind of thought process where they're like, no, well, you know, I can't trust you on this outing because of what you did today. I get it, I get it, I understand how we're we're having this conversation. But at the end of the day, the consequence needs to make sense. And if you just start with that, what am I trying to teach? It's very, very different. You know, that teaching approach is different from a punitive approach. And so again, these are just great ways to start to wrap your head around the types of conversations that are needed to take place in order for you to experience success with your camper. Having a conversation with a child who has not done the right thing, it's okay. It doesn't need to be something that we need to be afraid of. It's a great opportunity actually to deepen the relationship between the two of you. Discipline, reflex, love, and care. When I care, I give a consequence and we converse about it because the whole point is not the consequence, the whole point is the teaching, the conversation. So it's all got to kind of link together. And that's that's where you start to experience success. That's where you stop dreading having to give consequences. And when the child stops dreading having to receive a consequence, they're not gonna cheer, but they're not gonna be afraid, they're not gonna have nightmares over talking to you over if a if a problem happens. And that's important too because children need to be free to make mistakes as well. That's how we learn.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Totally. Yeah, a hundred percent. Okay, so in a perfect world, you know, consequences are quick, they're a quick conversation, or they're a quick like corrective statement where you you let them know that what they're doing is not okay, you move on, it's fixed. Maybe there's a bit of a bigger conversation, but let's talk about when things are getting a little more sticky. You know, I I often like I reflect back at being in school and you know, I I was in a pretty like, you know, middle, pretty average, let's say, you know, classroom, and where in like raised in kind of a like a Western context in philosophy when a teacher said something, you listened, and and you did it. But that's you know, that's not typical if for for many camps, and it's not typical, especially when you get to camp, when things are a little bit more wild by design. That is the the point of camp, is that things are a little more loosey-goosey, and that's that's a it's a feature, not a bug, as some people might say. And I think when that happens, things can get escalated from both the camper side and from a counselor side, and we can go over the top when it comes to consequences. And so, Dane, walk me through how you work with staff. And I know if you weren't listening to the first episode, the type of campers that you serve at Amy Molson come from different backgrounds, like a very wide swath of backgrounds and and experiences. So, how do you help counselors not get to that point where things, both from the child perspective and for the people giving consequences, that things don't go too far? Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Okay, I one line I you gotta ask yourself, what am I feeling? That's that's it. What am I feeling? You have to leave space for you to be a human being as well. You have emotions, you have feelings about things, you might be getting frustrated, you might be tired, you might be angry, you might just be fed up, you know, like it's always the same thing, it's over and over again. And so to take that one second and say, What am I feeling? will allow you to kind of move forward in the best possible way. Now, obviously, when you ask yourself, what am I feeling? It's not just to say, Oh yeah, I'm angry, and then to dive into it, it's for you to give yourself a chance to like course correct, you know what I mean? Like it can't just be, oh, I'm angry, let's do this, you know. Like, and so I think like asking yourself, what am I feeling? You'll you'll see that if you're able to be honest with yourself, some things trigger us, you know, some behaviors, some situations, maybe some responses to us are are triggering, you know, and some kids are very good at giving you a perfect response to perfectly trigger you. And the the the ego and the pride that comes into it sometimes in those moments is I need to press on by any means necessary, or I'm not gonna let them win. And that's already changing that thought process from how do I teach to I'm not gonna let them win, you know? Yeah, it's it's not a it's not a we're in this together, it's me versus you, and that subtle change is what creates bad results, and unsurprisingly, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Like when a camper ultimately says to you, like, I don't care about your consequence, or like I don't want to talk to you, or I don't want to do that, like then you're getting into a power struggle, right? And that that is the the core moment when things start to ramp up because if you're not experienced with that type of thing, your emotions go up, your ego comes into play, and and you said it perfectly, Dane. It's about winning and losing. There's there's no teaching. You move from like sitting beside a camper and and that to being like head to head, and nobody wins in that situation. It like once you once you are against them, it takes so much time to get back beside them. And you you potentially, depending on how far things go, especially to a kid, there's so much trust that's being built up. And in our last episode, we talked about the the ways to kind of start that relationship. It can be broken down so quickly as soon as you're you're an adversary in that kid's eyes. And and I I will say, you know, from being looking back on my time as a counselor, there's times where I was I lost a kid. Sorry, didn't I lose a kid, to be clear? No, no kid went missing. But when I I lost that relationship so bad that my co-counselor, I just had to accept that I was not going to be able to work with that that kid in a positive way. We just kept butting heads because I I got myself into that power struggle. So when it's getting to that point, Dane, how do you get yourself together and kind of be able to still follow through on the the discipline consequence philosophy? But how do you get everyone regulated enough to be able to move forward?

SPEAKER_02 28:32

First of all, I need to pause and just say, I'm really loving this conversation with you, Matt. Me too. Yeah, me too. But yeah, so I think what happens is we throw everything out the window. We become very stubborn sometimes when we're dealing with a situation that requires discipline. And it's almost like uh we have tunnel vision where the only thing that matters is for the child to submit. As soon as you have that tunnel vision, everything's going out the window. Now, if I ask a staff member, if I'm standing there, let's say in a distance and I see a counselor losing it, and he's getting really, really upset and really, really frustrated, and you've got him and his camper, and there's just kind of going at it. The irony of the situation is in that counselor's head, in that moment, they're thinking to themselves, if I don't discipline this child, I have failed. Now, despite that thought process being like the real driving force right now in this moment, every other thing we've talked about in terms of discipline has been thrown out the window. So every other main point, hey, we're there to teach, save space, building trust, respect, front loading, everything is thrown out the window. And now we've got this tunnel vision in by all means, they must submit. They must say, I was wrong, you are right, I will do the consequence, and thank you for the consequence. And so when you are in those moments of tunnel vision, you need to you need to take a step back and realize, oh, wait a second, I'm doing everything else wrong. It's almost like, you know, you're driving a car and you know, there's all these rules to the road, and the only thing you're focused on is keeping your hands at 10 and 2. Like, yeah, you know, you're you're you're breaking the speed limit, your seatbelt's not on, you know, like you're distracted, but you're like, but at least my hands are where they're supposed to be, so it's better than nothing. That is not the mentality we want to have when we go into discipline. The mentality we want to have is how do I teach? So to reframe, when I see myself or I see a staff member whose anxiety, emotional levels, whatever it is, are rising, I need to take a step back. Some conversations do not need to happen immediately. In fact, I would say most consequences don't need to happen immediately. And so it needs to be addressed immediately so you can say something, but the conversation that needs to take place that can happen after. And so when you're rushing into it, you're acting like I've got 30 seconds to get through this, and even that time limit. Something else I always say to my staff is when you go into a situation with a camper, you need to have this mentality that I have all the time in the world for this child. I have all the time in the world for them. Meaning I'm not trying to get away from this situation or get through it as quickly as possible. I'm trying to show the child that I'm right here with them. We're in this together, and it's uh the two of us versus the situation, not me versus you.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Yeah, yeah. I want to give two kind of tools that counselors can use, one kind of with themselves and the way they're thinking, and the other one about trying to like quickly assess how hard they need to go or how far they need to go. So, number one is part of the therapy therapeutic crisis intervention model of training teaches this concept of drop the rope. And that is like when we're thinking of a power struggle, you're on one end of a rope and a camper is on the other, and both of you are just pulling your hardest and trying to pull each other over, right? It's it's a it's a win-lose. It happens. Power struggles can start small and they can get big, they can start big and and get small, but you're you're pulling on the rope. And what you need to do, you are the adult in the situation, even if you're like a young teenager, you are the adult. It is your responsibility to drop the rope and to not and to not pull. And that is hard, especially like your ego. I will tell you that 18, 19-year-old Matt was not the best at this. I had to work on it. And there's there's some ways that you can do it. I'm gonna pop a resource into the show notes that that from the TCI training that is like ways you can drop the rope, but it's essentially it's self-regulating skills. It's it's those deep breaths. And and as corny as it is to do a box breath, you have time to do those things. In the middle of a power struggle, you can stop and take a deep breath in a non-threatening way towards like in the situation, and that can that can, you know, go a long way. Or even just some positive self-talk of saying, like, okay, I know a better way. I know a better way that we can do this. You're not saying that out loud to the camper, but in your head, you're saying, you know, I know that we can do this. Or like, what am I teaching? How do I want this camper to feel? Just those small statements can help you get out of your reptile brain. That's where it's about win or lose. The other resource or mindset that I like to have too is before you even get into a power struggle where things are like going to escalate, there are behaviors or there are things that campers are going to do where you have to force the camper to escalate, right? There's not many things, but there's three buckets of behavior that I like to do. And I do this exercise with staff. I get three garbage cans out and I put a bunch of behaviors on some paper, and then we throw them into the garbage cans. And there's bucket A, there's bucket B, and there's bucket F, right? Bucket A is like typical behavior that that campers are going to do that are like, uh, okay, it's, you know, it's pretty developmentally appropriate for them to do those things. It's not really even in the consequence realm. It might just be like, you know, running by and like sticking your tongue out at somebody. Like, okay, you know, that campers are doing that. I'm not, I'm not going to intervene in that. There's bucket B, and those are things we definitely need to intervene in. Like a kid's not willing to take their medication. You know, that might not be a you thing as a counselor, but they have to do it. It's a safety thing. A kid is running towards the lake, and they're there, especially if they're a non-swimmer. Like that's something we have to intervene in. There has to be a consequence. A kid like pushes is physical with somebody else. We we have to do it no matter what, you know, is no matter how that camper is going to respond, we have to do it in the moment. And then bucket F, it's called bucket F because it is the F it bucket. It's a butt, it's a thing that like it doesn't matter. So many things that we we think are important really doesn't matter. The the example, I can't remember who taught me this. And and if somebody remembers, let me know and and I'll put it in the show notes. But the the perfect example is a kid wants to like sleep in a life jacket. Why? I don't know. Because they're a kid, because they've got cool ideas about like what they want to do. And and do we want all kids to be sleeping in life jackets? No, we don't want that. But so much we're like, well, if we let one kid do it, we have to all do it. The truth is, sleeping in a life jacket's not very comfortable. So, but like, do I have to like force this? Do I have to get in this power struggle, or is the situation going to likely resolve on its own? So in our mind, that effort bucket is like, you know, I'm I'm going to consciously think about this. I might try a quick, like, verbal intervention, but at the end of the day, I'm just I'm it's not worth escalating that behavior.

SPEAKER_02 36:17

No, that's that's amazing. I'm gonna steal that. I love that. But uh it's true, sometimes we are we're dying on these hills over these situations, and it's kind of like, huh, you know, and one of the examples we use all the time when we're doing our TCI training is, you know, when a child wants to wear different different shoes or different socks or something like that. And I think what happens to us is we think, oh my gosh, if my kid is walking around in two different pairs of shoes and someone sees, they're gonna think that I'm I'm I'm negligent, I don't care, that he's lost the other two shoes. And so I think we start to create these own scenarios in our head. And well, two things about that. One, you can always ask, you can always just ask someone and say, hey, am I I might be overthinking this, but is it cool that my kids wearing these two different shoes, you know? And and and there's some there's some times where it just doesn't work. If you're doing something that requires safety and they're wearing, you know, a flip-flop and a and a billy boot, yeah, for sure, maybe that does matter. But there's many times, hey, we're just going to eat lunch. Yeah, you can rock a billy boot and a sandal, you know, like we'll be okay. And like you said, some of these things fix themselves. And so we're we're dying on these hills when really just a smile and saying, Oh, sweet, the forecast did call for rain, as you were, you know, wear that life jacket, you know, and that's it. Yeah, it turns it into a fun situation, I think. A light-hearted memory, something that you guys can all remember, you know, as time goes on.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, Dane, we've talked about, you know, escalating and getting ourselves back in that mindset. But at the end of the day, in order for this to be a teaching moment, we have to also be intentional about how we get kids back in the action after the consequence. And and that really this reintegrating, like getting them back into regular society of whatever that looks like for camp, that is like the the the cherry on top of what makes a good discipline Sunday. So, how do we how do we be really thoughtful about this reintegration process? What do you, what do you teach staff about getting kids back into the action thoughtfully?

SPEAKER_02 38:29

So for this one in particular, I have to tell you, you know, we we've got to draw on our own life experiences. Now, I when I was a kid, and maybe present day, I had a hard time not talking. I was talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. You know, teachers giving examples, demonstration, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, you know, even fun things, you know, we're playing a game, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. I couldn't help myself. And so I would get so caught up in talking, and that that inevitably someone would tell me to stop talking. Inevitably, you know, and every time they did, depending on how they did it, it either ruined the rest of my day, or it was just a small, like kind of gentle rebuff for me to get back on track. And so, one of the first things you need to do when you know you're thinking about discipline and reintegration is how did I feel about adults that addressed my behavior? And what did they do right and what did they do wrong? One of the things that is incredibly embarrassing and hard for children is to be called out in front of their peers. I always say, you know, kids have street cred, and so when you just embarrass them in front of everyone, I mean, there's a good chance it's not gonna go well, you know? And I you can think about like things that you've done in the past. So when someone's called me out on stuff, I've I continue to talk because for me, I needed to gain back my sense of pride. I that you know, I had one person say, Dane, can you just shut up? I was 13, I've never forgotten that moment and how I felt. And I draw on those memories for how I deal with situations, and that means I certainly do not tell kids to shut up. That certainly isn't something I have to work on, but it does mean that sometimes, you know, I have a deep voice, I'm I'm I'm pretty tall, I guess. And so there's times where I have to be aware of, you know, fear that comes from me and my size and and who I am, and I need to think about that as I go into situations. So all this thinking is going to shape the way my voice sounds, it's gonna shape my body language, my facial expression, and then I'm gonna choose the words that I'm gonna say specifically. I almost always start with, can I talk to you over here? And can I talk to you over here? Is already throwing the camper a bone. You know, it's already saying we're not gonna do this with the big show. It's not gonna be a big show and dance. It's not, I'm not interested in that. You want to send kids away if you can. Maybe if you're with a co-counselor, hey, can you just take the group? I just gonna sit back here for two seconds. I just want to touch base with Jimmy. Something like that is going to lead to a much more successful inter intervention right off the bat. So that's that's that's that's just how it's gotta start, you know? And so be so tunnel vision on this needs to be dealt with in the harshest ways so that it never happens again, which I think is maybe our default thought process. We think if it's more intense the way we handle it, we'll never have to deal with it again. And right, I mean, I can tell you right away that's just not how it works. Yep. Or not for the right reasons, anyways.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. Let's think about what's happening in the kid's head as you're asking them to have that conversation, right? We we've said this before. That sometimes is the like, oh, there's discipline, right? Oh, like, oh, there's consequence. I'm having this conversation and you're pulling them out, you're isolating them, and you're not like just by asking them to talk, you're you're you're getting the the the hair on the back of their neck is standing up because they're they're having to talk to an adult, they're having to come to face with that what they did was breaking your cabin contract or was not acceptable for the community that they're in. So you have to understand that getting them into that situation is making them feel a certain way. So we have to go through the conversation really thoughtfully, sitting beside them, right? Not across from them, that and and you're just talking to them in in a very calm tone. You are self-regulating, and when you're doing a good job self-regulating, like taking a deep breath, I always encourage people when you're going into those conversations, start with a deep breath yourself.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

That's good.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Because then you're moving from self-regulating to what's called co-regulating, you're modeling what it looks like to set up that conversation really intentionally. And and we can maybe in a future episode go through what this whole we're going back to the therapeutic crisis intervention training. They call it the life space interview, and there's an acronym called IESCA. We'll kind of talk about the end of that, but really just starting with that deep breath, a little bit of silence, a little bit of pause, let the kid know that they're safe in this conversation with you. But then Dane, to like you've had the conversation, however, that looks for the specific behavior. You know, this is on the cabin contract. Tell me a little bit about what happened, those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

How do you get them back in the action thoughtfully?

SPEAKER_02 43:44

So, I mean, sometimes you're fortunate enough to know your child and to know how they are. And so that's typically comes from prolonged, you know, working with them. So we're an overnight camp, two week sessions, after you know, three, four days, you're starting to get an idea. Of how you know your child operates. That's gonna come into play. So there's sometimes with younger children where you want to just integrate them into the activity that's happening. So for me, when I've got like a five to seven year old, they've been away for a time and we're reintegrating. I'm gonna make sure I have the supplies for them. I don't want them to walk in by themselves and sit there and try and must muster up the courage to ask for the stuff. Make sure you have the things ready for them so they can just dive right in seamlessly. I'm also going to start participating. Let's say I'm thinking of arts and crafts for some reason in my mind. That's that's where I went to. I want to make sure that I'm gonna start doing arts and crafts with this child. And I'm doing that for two reasons. One, so we're both starting at the same place. So you're not the only one that's a little bit behind where everyone else is. And two, no hard feelings. That is one of the most important things that I'm trying to convey is that I do not have a problem with you. We are we're good, bud. And so we're both here, same level. Can I use your blue? Oh, Dane, you have your own blue. Yeah, but your blue's better, you know, and then they smile and and and and that's it. But it's it's gonna be dependent on the child. If it's an older kid, they're not gonna, you know, want me to maybe sit next to them and start, you know, coloring with them. But for me, one of the ways that I can show that things are cool is just by a gentle joke, a gentle comment, for example, uh, you know, hey, you know, uh, make sure you finish quickly, you know, we got things to do, you know, just little tiny things. And I'm gonna base it off of my relationship with that camper. It goes back a little bit to our first episode. We're trying to form relationships with our children literally for these moments. And then those relationships, I said last week, those relationships for sure are gonna help you in these moments. So I'm not kind of I'm not coming into this, you know, you know, fresh. I'm coming into this situation where I already know the things you like and I know a little bit about the things you don't like. And then the last thing I would say is you can always ask the child if there's anything you can do as you reintegrate them. We sometimes think that we have to have all the answers. Half the time I just ask. I'm like, look, we're gonna go back in there. This doesn't have to be weird, this can be really chill. What can I do to help you to come back in? You know, and and even asking, even caring about them enough to ask, I most of the time I get like a wide-eyed stare. Like, like, what? Like, what do you mean? Like, I did something wrong, and now you're like being so nice about it? Yes, because I'm not trying to hurt you. I just want you to learn the mistake, it was always gonna happen. If not this, it was gonna be something else. And so, right now it's just about teaching and showing you that I care about you and I love you enough to care about the reintegration as much as I seemingly cared about the consequence in the conversation. You know, it's it's a full package deal. You know, my love is not just in small spurts, it's the whole thing. And so, yeah, uh, this this is gonna go a long way in the future situations. What you're doing is you're setting yourself up for success when there is a problem the next time, because you can draw on your experience, hey, just like last time we're gonna talk, you know. Remember, we talked and it was okay, we're gonna talk again, and it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

Yeah, and I so much of what you're talking about is the the idea of like the relationship piggy bank, right? Is that you are making deposits into that relationship throughout the week, and some sometimes, or not even when you make a when there's a consequence or when you get into that situation that we're talking about here, you're making a withdrawal, and you can't withdraw from an empty bank. Banks don't let you do that, and relationships don't let you do that. So, you know, that but you can make a smaller withdrawal if you're being really intentional about these things. And what you're saying, Dane, like I'm here for you as you go back into things is so important, and I think you can also give campers the opportunity to plan or to practice what it's going to look like next time they're in that situation, too. And it doesn't have to be this big thing, you know, you'll know your camper, you know what works for them. I call it like the plan or practice. So we come up with a plan for not if, but when this happens again. And saying to kids, like, you know, we can only control our own behavior, you know. I know I know that, you know, when Tabitha was like when Tabitha stole the ball from you, that really made you mad. And like that when you got mad, you you pushed her. And and you know, we're gonna talk to Tabitha, we'll figure all that out, but I want to talk about you. If something like that happens again, you know, I don't want that to happen to you. I don't want you to get to the point where you're gonna where you're pushing someone because that's something we can't do at camp. So how do we how do we get ourselves in a place where we can, you know, not get to the point where we're pushing somebody or or punching someone? And then you work through with what that plan looks like. How do they regulate? Do they go to a spot? Do they come find you? What does it look like where they don't get there to the point where they're gonna do something that they have to leave camp or something like that? Because that that is a consequence that's beyond you. And like your goal and your goal with that kid is to not get to that point. So how do you help them? And you can say, okay, here's some ideas. What do you think? And then you go, okay, you tell me what the plan is. If this happens again, you tell me, talk this through with me. And then you're getting them to process it. And if if like role-playing it will help, you're like, okay, I know this is really dumb, but like, let's just let's just go through this. You you play, you grab my backpack here, and I'm gonna come and I'm gonna rip it out of your hands. And it's just me. We're all good here, and I want you to practice. What does that regular? What does that deep breath look like for you? What does it look like for you to go to a spot? Those kinds of things. And nine times out of the ten out of 10, I've only in all of these kinds of conversations that I've had with kids, only one wanted to role-play it with it. And that kid was like a drama star anyway. So they loved it, they thought it was super fun and and it and it worked really. But the rest of the kids, they just wanted to talk through the plan in that circumstance of okay, you're gonna be feeling heated, your fists are gonna clench. Like those, you're gonna start feeling those. So what do we do? And they talk through it, we confirm, and then I say, Okay, let's get back into the action. I'm how how close do you want me to be? Do you want me to be around? Where where should I be? Where like physical? Because they might not know how you can help them, but they can tell you where they want you to be. And nine times out of 10, if you've done a good job, they want you to be keeping an eye out. Yeah, and you'll be like, okay, great. And I'm I'm gonna talk to my co-counselor. I know you're going to swim later and I'm not gonna be there. So, do you want me to talk to this person to like give them a heads up on what's going on? And this kid, they are going to be blown away with you thinking into the future for them and how they want how you want to help them in the future. That to me is your you've made a withdrawal, now you're making another deposit again in that piggy bank.

SPEAKER_02 51:22

It's care, it's care and it's love. And you know, I would be remiss if I didn't say these last two things, which is one that you're being observed, you're being watched, children learn from observation how you deal with this situation. Uh, the the children in your group are, you know, subconsciously saying that's how it'll be when I, you know, do something wrong or when I make a mistake. And so you've got this group watching, and they're watching how you deal with things, and you're setting yourself up for success when you do things the right way. There's always time to fix things, there's always a chance to come back and say, hey, I'm sorry, I didn't really like the way that went. Always an opportunity, but you have to absolutely remember that you have an audience. Even if you know your conversation is private and it's a way, then the lesson there is, oh, then we'll have a conversation that's private and away. He won't embarrass me in front of everyone else. The second thing is clean slate. You gotta move on from it. You can draw upon the situation when you see efforts being made to do the right thing. By all means, please address it when you see a child that's that's uh you know demonstrating, maybe implementing, sorry, the new plan that you guys just worked out. But say that, mention it, call upon that, not in like a you know, in an annoying way, but just say, hey, just so you know, I saw good stuff. And then the other thing I like to do is in that example with Tabitha, you just you got a little bit more information about how to be the best possible counselor, and that's to watch Tabitha and to watch, let's say, Billy. So just keep your eye out so that Billy doesn't always need to be demonstrating all these mature skills, you can just kind of keep an eye out and address it, and that shows Billy another level of safety. Man, he really did take it seriously. Like he's got all these kids to watch, all this situation, and yet he was still able to catch Tabitha stealing the ball from me a second time, and I didn't even have time to get angry because it was just addressed. And so the clean slate is is moving forward. I'm not holding this against you, I'm not waiting for you to mess up. On the contrary, I'm waiting to encourage you in what you do, and I'm waiting to support you best that I can in the future based on the information you gave me. What I'm doing right now is I'm proving that if you tell me something, I will take it to heart. And there's no better demonstration of that than this.

SPEAKER_01 53:45

Yeah. Oh, okay, Dane, we're coming up to the hour mark here, and we could easily be coming up to the two-hour mark. Thank you for this, Dane, and thanks for being on the show for these last two episodes. I I think it would be a very weird circumstance if we didn't hear from you again on first class counselors. So thank you for being so generous with sharing your philosophy, and it's so clear how enthusiastic you are about a topic that I think doesn't always elicit enthusiasm from from camp folks. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 54:14

No, thank you so much, Matt. This has been this has been incredible, and I really hope that the listeners are able to implement this stuff. They're able to kind of teach it to their peers and live it. And again, we're all gonna make mistakes. That's exactly what we're doing. We're addressing mistakes. And so if we make a mistake, let's own it and learn from it and also move on.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

Yeah, agreed. Agreed. Okay, so we're gonna move, finish things off like we always do with our eggle. It's our ever-growing, ever-learning section. It's a tip, trick, game, or song for counselors to use to be better every day. And I am gonna start this one off because I got a really great gift this year from our good friend Travis, Travis Allison, who's the the co-founder of Go Camp Pro. And I've also, I think I've probably shared this on the podcast this season that I've gotten super into Dungeons and Dragons over the last couple of years. So I received, and on YouTube, we'll put the link in the show notes, but this dice spinner here, so my camera's kind of picking it up, but it's got all of the different Dungeons and Dragons dice on there. So a 20-sided dice, a four-sided dice, a six-sided dice, and you spin it and then you stop let it stop, or you stop it with your thumb and it tells you what you rolled essentially. And I think a little baggie or a set of 20-sided or like Dungeons and Dragons dice is such a fun way to decide things as a cabin and to like bring things up to chance. You don't have to teach them all the different rules of DD, although I think one day I'm gonna go back and be a counselor and run the whole week with dice rolls and dungeons and dragons. Like, what does a critical failure look like? I don't know, it's gonna get wild. But I just think there's something so fun about leaving things up to a dice roll. So having those, uh having a little thing like that, the reason I love this little spinner, which I'm not sure if you can buy anymore. So, like na na nana, I have this and you don't. But but I'm sure there's like pocket size one, but just having something small, I'm gonna lose dice right away, but I'm less likely to use this little or lose this little spinner thing. So, yeah, give yourself some some DD magic at camp this summer.

SPEAKER_02 56:17

I love that. I I want one. I'm gonna eBay, eBay maybe.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Dame, what's your what's your angle?

SPEAKER_02 56:28

So, okay, so for me, we have some rules about taking photos of campers and uploading them and uh that that being like not acceptable, but we always encourage our staff to take take as many photos as possible. It's just that they're not uploading them to social media. I think one of the best things you can do for yourself as a counselor, I have not met a I have not met many counselors that speak without love of the memories that they formed at camp. I have a lot of friends that have worked at camp for many years or at least one year, and they all remember it quite fondly. And I think one of the ways that you can bring those memories with you in an incredibly positive way is absolutely to make sure that you take a fun cabin photo. Now, there's a lot of different things you can do. I think like one of the fun options would be is to, you know, take a photo with your cabin and then put it on a shirt, um, maybe over session break if you have a chance to go home. And then if you have any of your campers back, to have them sign the shirt could be amazing. It could be really, really fun. But that's not to say like that, you know, it's the only thing there's there's a little bit more work involved in that. But if you just take a photo of your your cabin group and maybe put it on a Bristol board, a poster board, and just have your campers sign it, I a hundred percent know that you will keep that forever because these are memories, it's a special moment. You know, the smirk of some of your kids in the photo is gonna bring back memories and stuff like that. And and it's very easy to get caught up in camp and just be really go, go, go, or to take photos and just for them to just get lost in you know, hundreds and hundreds of photos from camp. So I just suggest being a little bit more intentional as a counselor. These kids that you're with, however big your group is, they're gonna have an everlasting impact on you, and you hopefully are gonna have an everlasting impact on them. And so take that photo. If you can get some some signatures, maybe some fun like comments from your kids, remember the goldfish, you know, whatever it is, just that's gonna be great. And I think you're gonna look back years from now and say, Really glad I took that idea. And I have these memories.

SPEAKER_01 58:42

Yeah, so good, so good. Okay, Dane. Well, thank you again, folks. If you enjoyed today's episode, you can find our contact information in the show notes to get in touch with Dane. And remember that you can get in touch with us too at the top of the show notes. You'll see a little link to text us. Just click that, send us a text, just like you would send a text message to your best friend. You can send one to Dane and say, hey, Dane, thanks for being on the podcast. So your ratings, your reviews, all those things just help get the podcast out there to more camp counselors. We hope that you have a great summer coming up. And if you want to do some more learning, check out all the other great GoCamp Pro podcasts at gocamp.pro slash podcast. And don't forget, camp is camp and camp's all good.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

First class counselors is brought to you by Beth and Travis Allison, Summer Camp Leadership Training and Marketing Consultants. Thanks for listening, friends.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

Hey Camp Ros, we love that our industry is built on sharing. In order to foster that spirit, we hope that whenever you share an idea that you learn from the Camp Hacker Podcast, conference, summer camp professionals group, or wherever else, that you're quick to give credit where credit is due. That way, we can all encourage more camp pros to share the tips and tricks that will make camp better.