First Class Counselors

Camp counselors have the most important job at summer camp. Period. A great camp staff will have kids wanting to come back to camp year after year. First Class Counsellors is here to make great camp staff. Each week, we’ll cover practical and accessible tips that will level up your camp counselor skills. Our two hosts, Oliver Gregan, Summer and Families Camp Director at YMCA Camp Jewell and Matt Honsberger from Go Camp Pro are excited to be able to provide this resource to camp counselors.

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First Class Counselors

So You Want to Be “On Leadership”? First Class Counselors #84

April 23, 2026 • First Class Counsellors - from Go Camp Pro • Episode 84

0:00 | 42:00

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Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/first-class-counselors-pod/so-you-want-to-be-on-leadership

Understanding the Responsibility and Reality of Summer Camp Leadership Roles

This episode explores the transition from being a frontline counselor to joining the seasonal leadership team. This episode dismantles the myth that leadership is about status or power, instead framing it as a vital shift toward serving staff and maintaining the camp mission from behind the scenes. They discuss how to identify if you are ready for the move, how to start preparing this summer for a promotion next year, and why the best leaders are often the ones who work hardest when no one is watching.

Key Takeaways:

Leadership is Service Not Status. Stepping into a leadership role means moving away from direct camper connections to focus on empowering your fellow staff members. You must be prepared to give up personal glory to ensure that the counselors you lead have everything they need to succeed.
Take Initiative While Maintaining Integrity. If you want to move into leadership, start by solving problems before they are assigned and demonstrating that you can follow camp policies perfectly. Directors look for staff who walk the walk and can be trusted to uphold safety and culture even during their time off.
Prepare for the Reality of Tough Conversations. Being a leader often requires delivering difficult news to staff or parents and holding your peers accountable. Developing the emotional maturity to handle these moments while staying present in the daily joy of camp is the hallmark of a counselor moving into a director role.

E.G.E.L – Ever Growing, Ever Learning:

Oliver: Using plastic chef containers for organizing craft supplies.

Matt: The board game: Sequoia

Sponsors:

Ultracamp
Camp is about changing lives, not chasing paperwork. Ultracamp builds tools that make camp smoother for today's camp counselor and tomorrow's camp leader. Learn more at https://ultracampmanagement.com/firstclass

Host Links:

Matt Wilfrid, Executive Producer of Podcasting at Go Camp Pro
Oliver Gregan, Executive Director at YMCA Camp Winona

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Stepping into a leadership role at camp isn't about power or glory or working any less hard. It's actually quite the opposite. The best leaders at camp are the best leadership staff, they give up the power that this position has given them. They work behind the scenes and they work harder.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Sometimes it's taking on the tougher thing, the harder thing, the thing that nobody else wants to do. As a camp director, I always know I have tough stuff and I say I need a volunteer. It's whose hands going up. I'm gonna notice those people real fast.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

This is First Class Counselors, another innovative podcast brought to you by Camp Hacker. First Class Counselors is dedicated to young and up-and-coming camp members. By equipping and empowering our on-the-ground staff, camp directors can rest easy knowing that our campers are having the true life-changing experience that parents expect. Find our show notes and our blog for camp leaders and professionals at camphacker.tv.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Camp is about changing lives, not chasing paperwork. Ultracamp builds tools that make camp smoother. For today's camp counselor and tomorrow's camp leader, learn more at ultracampmanagement.com/slash first class counselor.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Welcome to First Class Counselors, where we give camp counselors insider tips and advice on how to make a camper summer the best it can be.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

And whether you are brand new to the camp world or you've got a few years under your belt and maybe are looking for some leadership opportunities, you know that self-improvement and a growth mindset is built into the DNA of every great staff member, or as we say it here, every great first class counselor.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

My name is Oliver Griegan. I am the director of camping services for the YMCA Camp Westwood, which is with the Pawtucket YMCA in Coventry, Rhode Island. We are a rebuilding day camp that plans to eventually become an overnight camp.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

And my name is Matt Wilfred. My pronouns are he him. I'm the executive producer of podcasting and a consultant with Go Camp Pro.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Yeah, and let's talk about today's topic. So the job of being a camp counselor is incredible. You have enormous impact on a camper's summer, right? You're right there, you're in the heat of the things, doing every single activity. But after a couple of summers, you start to eye another position on camp, and that is a leadership position. A lot of camps have different styles of this. It might be in program, it might be in camper care, it might be in administration, but you're no longer actively in ratio with your campers. You're doing a little bit more of the planning, the scheduling, the preparation, and the background that kind of gets camp to work. And my biggest warning, a lot of the cleaning as well. For anybody out there who's going to be interested in this job, a lot of cleaning comes with it. And today we want to talk about why this position is so great at camp, but also what are the things that make the right person for this? And how do you maybe get yourself on track to be the right person for this role? A summer seasonal leadership role.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Yeah, and and right off the bat, I think let's get our like biases and assumptions away. I think it can be really tempting to think of like, oh, you're on leadership. Oh, you're better. This is a better position. It's more desirable. It's not. Period, full stop. It's just a different role at camp. Being a counselor, directly working with kids, you know, it is the reason we do this podcast is because we believe that it's the most important job at camp, right? You directly impact the camper experience more than any of your like water slides or archery or program, anything like that, the relationships that kids build with each other and that you facilitate as a counselor makes them want to come back and really gives them that transformative experience. It is so, so important. And I think it's really important that camps for directors listening and and you know for counselors to think about you know, is the camp that you are at right now, are they showing that that role is important, both in you know, in pay and in in like status, are those counselor roles being emphasized and important? Sometimes pay goes up because of you know increased risk or responsibility or those types of things, but ultimately, you know, we want to encourage you to be a camp counselor for as long as you feel like you are rocking that position and serving those kids. And and stepping into a leadership role at camp isn't about power or glory or working any less hard. It's actually quite the opposite. The best leaders at camp or the best leadership staff, they give up the power that this position has given them. They work behind the scenes and they work harder. You know, it is a very differently hard role to be in a leadership role at camp, but it does give you the opportunity to serve your area, your team, or campers in a new way. And most importantly, I think is to be a resource for the next generation of staff. That you you get to empower them to do all the things that you could have done when you were a counselor. And that's that's necessary for camps to grow and thrive into the future for when one day you're no longer at that camp.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Yeah, I always think about leadership kind of as a wider impact. You're gonna affect more people, whereas your counselor job, it's a very direct job, right? You have your very specific kids, you're gonna develop a connection, and then with your leadership, your your goal is to make sure everyone is set up for success. So you might not always get those really great camp moments of a late-night conversation with a camper about their development and growth and questions they might have, or you might not be the one who's right there in the moment when a kid is scared to go down the zipline, whatever it might be, though those dissipate a little bit, not completely. Like you're getting sometimes called in for big moments, but you have sometimes a little bit less of a connection with kids when you're trying to handle it. And that's a challenge in its own right that you'll have to ask yourself. But I think one of the most important things, and that's how we're gonna start, is why do you want to be on leadership? That's a huge question you have to ask yourself before applying and going for this position. And I really wanted to kind of start yourself, start off by saying ask yourself some questions. And the first question that I would say is if you want to move into a leadership position, is ask yourself what specific things do you plan to do in the position, right? Do you want to make sure that there's now a checklist when kids come into camp so you know that they have all of their belongings? Is it because you want to specifically be the person who shakes the hand of the parents and guarantees that their kid is going to have a good time and then uphold that promise? If you're asking yourself those specific and seeing yourself in those specific things, it's really going to help you be a stronger leadership staff member, but it's also because you're going to be there for the right thing. The other thing that I take really to heart is when asked why you want to be in a leadership, is your answer still along the lines of it's to make sure that kids have an amazing summer? I'm always really happy when I'm doing interviews and I hear someone who's applying for this leadership position who says they want to support their fellow staff better. And that's great. It's a core of what that job is, and it's something that makes it a little different than what you've been doing previously. But at the end of the day, whether you are a leadership or you are a counselor, your goal is to make sure those kids have an amazing summer. They are, you know, as a business, the customers who are coming in and you're serving them first. And that does mean that supporting your staff so they can make that experience possible is one of the most important parts of your job. But it also means that sometimes you're giving support to staff who might not be providing that experience. And you need to know as a leadership staff member that the kids are going to come first. And you might have to have some really tough conversations with people who might be your friends that you're now a leadership staff member, or someone who is maybe similar in age to you, and you're, you know, you're in charge of them and you have to have a tough conversation. You go, like, hey, the kids come first. You need to figure this out. This is your job, this is your responsibility. And it's my job to make sure that I support you and make it possible. But like you're carrying it through. You're the one who makes this mission happen. That's a really important thing for me. So, you know, it should always still be kids first. And then the last one is, are you ready to move on? Something that was really challenging for me when I went from a counselor to a leadership staff member was I wasn't in cabinet anymore. I wasn't part of those deeper connections, like I hinted at before, and I wasn't connecting with my campers as much as I had in the past. And and I really am a like camper first oriented person. So that was a really hard thing for me to start missing out on. And I had to switch up some of my skills, which was another challenge. It was no longer like, how well can I canoe and teach it, or how well can I like run the zip line, or how how well can I talk to a camper about a situation? But it was now about like, hey, can I teach my staff to do these things? Can I make sure that all the supplies are there and not broken and it's clean and organized and that we have a whole desk and there's a system in place to continue doing that? That's a way different job to have to orient to. And I think understanding that it's not just, hey, I was great at singing camp songs and now I'm gonna be a great camp leader. There's a different skill set and understanding that you might have to change those things up a little bit. So, Matt, those are like my kind of three big questions that I was definitely winded on. But what are some things that you want to make sure staff know before they're stepping into that leadership role about why do they want to be it?

SPEAKER_01 9:28

I I think everything you're asking there is are questions that people need to ask themselves, Oliver. I I really love that. And I really like the recognition of how the relationships at camp change because there's that like a camper remembers you as their counselor, they don't always remember who the program director was. And sometimes that's actually by design, right? We we want to make sure we're setting others up for success, and you have to be ready to do that. There's a really great book called The Leader Who Is Hardly Known, and we'll we'll make sure it's linked in the show notes there that I think is is a quintessential reading for every new leader for me, because it just really reminds you it's kind of written from the education perspective and the outdoor education perspective, but I think it totally applies that there's that quote that the best leaders are the ones that make the people they lead feel like they've done it themselves, and that's that's what you're getting into. And that goes along the lines of the question that you need to ask yourself honestly, is this about power? Do I want to get into this leadership role because it's about getting more power at camp? Now, that's a spicy question, and and our listeners out there, your first answer is gonna be like, no, no, it's not about power. Why come on, it's me. Why would Matt? Come on, why are you saying that? I don't want to get it. Yeah, it's never about that. But I I think ask yourself the question this way you know, if any of your answers of why do you want to do this is related to that you want people to look up to you or they want people to see you as a leader, then that's where you need to reevaluate. Because it's not about being seen as a leader, it's not about the the relationship to like you making a difference in other people's eyes, it's you making a difference for supporting the people that you're working with, right? And and and how you uniquely in this role will serve the mission of camp. And the mission of camp is is the camper experience, as Oliver said. So you realizing that the difference you're going to make is by having those hard conversations with counselors who maybe aren't doing so well and needing that support and offering them a new perspective so that they can better affect the campers in their cabin. And you are, like Oliver said, you become almost like a firefighter of putting out the fires and solving problems. You're a problem solver rather than strictly not a problem solver versus relationship builder, but it is going in and solving those problems so that other people can build those relationships, whether that be the counselors with the campers or the campers and the campers. You're solving problems so that relationships can thrive and that you are only a very small part of that relationship that is built from that moment. And sometimes, you know, you're gonna have these incredibly profound coaching moments with campers and staff that are gonna like leave you feeling great, and you you'll be a part of that relationship because you really helped repair it or restore it. But oftentimes you're stepping in and then you should be gracefully stepping out and letting people thrive without you needing to be there 24-7. The the the look of a bad leader is that if camp can't operate without you there, or a relationship can't grow without you being there. So you need to be able to be comfortable with stepping in and stepping out and not getting any of the glory from that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

I I think the Spider-Man quote, with great power comes great responsibility, right? Is definitely one that falls in line when you get onto leadership is understanding that it it's it's not about the ego that you get to get fulfilled from being on leadership. It's 100%, you know, the satisfaction you get from the work of helping others, right? Like I think as a camp director, one of the things that you start to understand is like that feeling of standing off in the distance and watching others be successful because you've set them up that way, but you don't ever walk in there and be like, this is because of me, right? And I think I think Matt, you make a really great point about that spicy question of power. So if you if you go into it, then the next thing you want to say is like, okay, I think I'm here for the right reasons. I'm looking into this for the right reasons. It's not just because it's a little bit higher of a paycheck, but now are you ready to be in leadership or maybe are you on that right track? And again, this is where I start to ask you a couple questions. And the first one is do you already start to help your fellow staff, right? If you see someone struggling with something, are you there to assist them? Right. Maybe, and you're not neglecting your duties to step in. Something that I notice sometimes is that there might be a staff member who like has their co-counselor go back to the cabin early and stays behind a cleanup evening program. And they're like, oh, look how helpful I am. I'm sweeping and getting these things done. And then the reality of that is you're leaving your co to head back and do something that's kind of harder, which is to get the kids back to the cabin and starting to get ready for bedtime. And you're kind of skipping out on that responsibility by staying and sweeping behind. Don't get me wrong, leadership always helps, like likes the help, but you're also neglecting what is kind of the more important thing, which is getting those kids back and back to bed. So being a part of that and and understanding like how are you helping your fellow staff? So, like, are you teaching them things? Are you reiterating things maybe for the third or fourth time because that you know that learning's hard? Are you giving the tours? Are you welcoming to the new staff? These are all things that you can start to do as a potential future leadership staff member that get seen. The other thing I ask is have you started to trial some of the responsibilities that leadership has to do? And you can do these in your cabin. The staff that I look at who I think show strong signs of being good leadership is how good is their cleaning schedule in the cabin and making sure that kids are keeping the cabin clean. Is it fun? Is it interactive? But is there a schedule? Is there some type of wheel of cleaning that the kids love to follow? These are great ways for me to start to see like how someone's setting things up for success success. You know, the other thing is how good you are working without direct responsibility. And this is one that I think is more important than pretty much anything else if when it comes to being leadership. You can learn a lot of skills and stuff, but this is where your motivation comes in. And what I mean working without a direct responsibility is a lot of times in leadership, great leaders are preparing stuff to get ready for later. Whereas a decent leader, a person in a leader's position, is more reactive. Like Matt brought up the firefighter before. And a firefighter's job is yes, to put out a fire when it's ablaze, but their job is also so much more on the preventative side and preparing and educating and getting things ready so that they don't have to deal with that fire in the first place. And that's what great leaders are doing. And why it's so hard to do that is because there's no problem that you have to address in the moment. It's something that you're preparing for in the future. So if you're good at creating systems, if you're good at, you know, thinking what could be something in the future, if you're good at prepping something, even alone is a big thing. Like if you're one thing that I remember a leadership responsibility is we had these knots that had to be tied that the kids would get as these awards. And I had a leadership staff member who's really poor at getting those knots tied ahead of time, and he would be tying them the night of and like last minute trying to get it together to get his kids their knots. And he knew that he was going to need those before summer even started. And now we're in the moment of he's supposed to be giving these kids their knots maybe an hour beforehand, and he's still trying to tie those last ones, and they they were long knots to tie, they weren't simple, they were complex, like monkey ball kind of deal. And working without a direct responsibility means he would have handled that way ahead of time. And the last thing that I say is what kind of training have you done, or what is accessible for you to get ready? A really great leadership staff member usually has is pretty good with diverse skills, has trained, has practiced these things ahead of time. So, what can you do to prep yourself and what crosses over into the camp world? You know, if you can get in there for a lifeguard training, if you can get in there for your higher of training, even if it's not a pertinent one for you, they still teach safety management, preventative measures, they still teach what you should be aware of if you're just monitoring that area. So even if you're not the leadership staff member who is in charge of those areas, knowing them and being able to assist and getting a good idea of like how much time it takes and how you can be of assistance, even if you're not super well trained, these are all great things that you can do to start prepping yourself to be a leadership staff member. And the last one that I say is quite accessible to most people who are being leadership is get to camp early or be in contact with camp early, right? Knowing what is getting prepped for camp before it even starts is a huge thing that you can start doing as a potential leadership staff member or someone who wants to be one, right? If this is the summer you're gearing up to be leadership, maybe not for this summer, but for next summer, if you're involved now, then when you come in as a leadership in the in the future year, you've been through that prep work. You've seen what goes into it at camp. So you have a much better understanding of what's going to be necessary for you to do during training and what to do during the summer so that because you've been there for all this prep period that happens before it. Matt, what are some things that you're doing or asking yourself to see if you have someone who could be potentially ready for leadership?

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Yeah, I I think that the the my you talked about kind of the mindset, you know, and some of the early actions that great pre or potential leadership folks are doing. And and I would just kind of want to build on those. One, you you know, Oliver, you said like, have you done some of the responsibilities? Have you do you help fellow staff already? For me, that comes back to just like taking initiative. Do you are you aware of problems that are having or that are happening? And are you coming up with creative solutions to solve those problems before you even need to go to somebody to ask for what those solutions are? And and a good solution, like you said, Oliver, isn't one where you are like abdicating your current responsibilities to solve those problems. So you're not, you know, you're not interrupting the the flow of the camp day or the flow of your cabin or or how you're working with your co to solve those problems. Right. And not only that, I think often what takes staff a couple of years to understand is that you know, being a good leadership staff member or just a staff in general is just recognizing that the camp world is much bigger than your specific job or your specific cabin. That there's lots going on, that the schedule is flowing, and you know, the schedule is readjusting on the fly because of an issue that's happened, right? Maybe somebody got hurt and they need to close a program area. So you need to like jump in and and and run a different program, or you need to, you know, move your campers around. And I often found that staff who were ready to be leadership were the ones that were like able to not only just go with the flow, but thrive on that change and are able to think of something. So having those games in your back pocket, having some ways for you to entertain kids and just be able to like step in or be like, yeah, I'll take on this whole second cabin and they'll come join us at our, you know, high ropes or archery session, and I'm gonna make it fun. I'm gonna have these back pocket games, I'll be ready to go. Because those are the types of things that you're gonna be doing as a leadership staff member. And that's both the firefighter putting out the fire, but also having those skills to prepare for that. So being able to think on the fly and take initiative. I always loved it as a camp director. When a staff member came up to me and was like, Hey, I'm noticing this, this is my idea. What do you think? And then that for me as a director, I'm like, oh, this person is definitely understanding how like what they're proposing is going to impact the whole organization or the whole camp experience. And for me, that's a trusted person as a director that I'm gonna go and brainstorm with in the future, or I've seen that they have this ability already. So maybe it's not this summer that you're on leadership, but in the future. Year, I might be thinking about that person because I saw them creatively and it not only just solve a problem but notice that there was a problem in the first place. So those are some of the things that, like that's the readiness indicator that I'm looking at when it comes to a future leadership staff member. Hey, first class counselors, listeners, listen up. Ultra camp has a free resource just for you. That's right, the frontline staff, the counselor's survival checklist, packed with tips on communication, time management, camper care, all of those practical things that we talk about on the podcast all the time. Great counselors often become great directors, and the habits you build now will set you up for that path. Ultracamp is designed to make camp life easier. Things like keeping schedules and assignments organized, helping leaders communicate clearly with staff, making sure families stay informed so that you can focus on the campers. When camp runs smoothly, you can grow into the leader you were meant to be. Check it out at ultracampmanagement.com/slash first class.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

You're making me think of something that I think is really great is can you identify what the big picture is, the big goal of camp? And then can you do something specific? Right. So like you understand that camp is supposed to be this magical place that makes memories and and kids walk away with an incredible story of something that made a difference. And then do you go, oh man, I know that's really important. So I'm gonna make sure I take my cabin out for a night of stargazing, right? And I I'm just gonna learn like 10 constellations and be able to point them out in the night sky so that I can make that amazing memory because I I want my kids to have a story when they leave. Because if I have a counselor who comes up to me and says that, is like, oh, I want to take my kids out stargazing because I want them to have a good story when they leave camp, then I know that that counselor is starting to get the bigger picture of what we're doing here. It's not just about taking kids care of kids, it's not just about the the activities and stuff, but they're they're starting to connect that this is about friendship, this is about having the stories, this is about making amazing memories. That's what camp is about. It's about the development of the kids. And then they're finding specific things they can do in their day to make those things happen. That's a huge sign to me that you're a potential leadership staff member. So the next question is what can you start doing this summer to make it possible that you are leadership next summer? Right. There's still time if you're looking for leadership and your team that you're gonna be a part of is looking for it, there's still time to prove it. But we're gonna talk about you're still a counselor this summer, you're still gonna have an amazing time, but what can you do right now to make sure that you're ready for it come, you know, summer 2027, which seems like a long way away. And you're probably like, Oliver Matt, why would I ever do like I'm not thinking about camp that far ahead? I don't even know if I'm gonna go back to camp this summer, right? But if you are at camp this summer, then this is the opportunity for you to maybe be setting the setting the stones and setting the base and the foundation that 27 could be your year to be on leadership staff. So here's my advice. First off, vocalize it from the beginning. Tell your current leadership staff that, hey, I want to do what you do next summer. Or these are the positions that I'm looking at next summer, because they're gonna start to give you the hints, they're gonna start to give you the help and the aid and the training that hopefully will get you ready for it. And I also think remind them, right? Say it a couple times, right? You know, hey, I really want to be in leadership. Hey, can I help you with this? Because I think that would help me be a great leader. What is something that I can do that's gonna get me ready for leadership? If you're asking and vocalizing those things, those people will hopefully start putting you in those positions for success if they think that you're gonna be someone who's capable of it. I think volunteering for extra projects without compromising your responsibilities to your campers and your co. So, you know, it's taking that initiative that Matt was talking about. It's talking about, you know, not stepping away from one responsibility to do a more preferred responsibility. Sometimes it's taking on the tougher thing, the harder thing, the thing that nobody else wants to do. As a camp director, I always know I have tough stuff and I say I need a volunteer. It's whose hands going up. I'm gonna notice those people real fast. I think show the skills. We talked about this before a little bit, make the mini camp mini cabin cleaning schedule, do the one-on-ones, you know, write the postcards, get those things done that need to get done inside of your cabin to prove, like, hey, I handle the small stuff too. I handle these things to make sure that they're gonna be ready. So I think those are some things that you can start to do. And I think mostly prove that you're capable, right? Prove that you are someone that can be relied on. If you make a promise, stick to it, you know, and that counts as things that are, you know, promises you make by accepting the job. So, like that's being on time, that's being in the right place, right? That is practicing the right procedures and policies. It's upholding others to them, right? When others are like, oh, it's fine if we're five minutes late for a curfew, no one's gonna check. You know, right? And it's up to you if you want to be that leadership person to be the person in the friend group who says, No, like they say we have to be back by 1155, we've got to be back by 1155. And I think those are the things that are gonna set you up to to be a leadership staff member in the future, right? Matt, what are some things that you're gonna make sure you're doing to become leadership staff when the opportunity arises?

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Yeah, I I love I Oliver, your point about just like having integrity is is huge, right? You you what directors expect leadership staff are them to be to like walk the walk and talk the talk a hundred percent of the time. So you need to start doing that if you're not already and making sure you're being that great example, and it could be at the cost of you know, people calling you a narc, right? Like of you like losing a little bit of like face with your friends because you're following the rules a little bit more, and you don't need to be like super showy about it, and I don't think you should, but doing the right thing, and if someone like, yeah, Oliver, you know, if it's 1155, hey, you it's it's a difference between saying, hey guys, the rule is 1155, so we should all get going there. There's a difference between saying, like, uh, you know, hey Oliver, do you want to, you know, play a couple more rounds of a pool in the staff line? Should be like, no, you know, it's it's 1150, it's gonna take me about like five minutes to get back to my cabin. So I I I'm gonna go because you know, gotta make curfew. Like, that's there's there's ways that you can handle it without being performative. And and really, I think along those lines, it's like just do the job the best you can, be the best counselor that you can. Do it to a hundred percent, and that will be noticeable, right? To to own your job description and to and to say, I'm gonna do this the best I can, it's going to speak enough volumes. I promise you it will. If you want to start looking to those future positions, like don't get lost in the summer just trying to prepare for the next one, I think is that that's my overall advice here. But the things that you can do to kind of internally motivate you, there's there's two things. One, I agree, Oliver, vocalize it at the beginning. Talk to your direct support. So the person who might be I use direct support in place of supervisor. Hopefully you know that by now. But whoever's like doing your evaluation at the end of the summer, make sure you tell them that you have this aspiration. And it can be it can be broad, but make it not only a part of what feedback they're gonna give you. So ask them to give you feedback in that lens of you as a yes, as a counselor for this year, but as a future leadership staff member. And second, make it a part of your goal setting process. What is what is what do I need to do this summer to like hit kind of these benchmarks? And you can start to determine some of those benchmarks by yourself by asking about what the job description is for those leadership positions. So get educated on what that position actually looks like because then you will get to see that job description in action this summer. So if you want to be the unit head, let's say, of of the, you know, 10 to 12 year olds, what does the job description of a unit head actually look like? And and not from a perspective like you're not evaluating the current unit head, but you're being able to put yourself in the shoes of that person to really understand what that job is gonna look like. Because I think there is a a chance that that might, that job might not be what you're expecting it to be. And you're like, oh, I thought it was this, it's actually this, and that's not what I'm down for. I want to look somewhere else. So really knowing the rules before you're gonna get into it, and the best opportunity you have is to see it in action in the summer. So don't be afraid to do that. The last tip I'll give is that I think being a leader from within, I often I don't love the term leadership staff because I think every staff member has the ability to be a leader and is inherently a leader. And being a leader within your cohort is is great. And not just for like following the rules, but for for motivating others, bringing other people in on the fun, trying new games and doing new things. Um, all of those are ways to step up and be a leader within your community. And that helps you remain focused on the now rather than just constantly feeling like this summer is a proving ground for the future. Don't don't lose sight of how awesome this summer will be in the role that you're in right now.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Yeah, you're still a counselor at the end of the day this summer. So focus on that. And then all of this is just additive to kind of you know prepare you for what could be the next step if that's something that you're looking into. And then Matt, both of you and I have been summer leadership. What's your advice to somebody who might be doing this for the first time for the for those be would be leaders this year?

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Yeah, don't get the a case of leadership itis is my is my biggest piece of advice. You and which is my way of saying don't power trip your first year there. You're and and man oh man, you're gonna listen to this advice and you're gonna say, Matt, never. I will I would never. I would never, because this isn't about power. I've already answered that question, Matt. Why would you even suppose that? And what I'm gonna say to you is that it be very aware that it will likely go to your head in the first time you're you're a leader. And maybe, maybe that's just my experience as a you know, a young male who was pushed into leadership maybe a little earlier than his ego was ready for. But I've seen it time and time again is that people go in and they think that the job of being a leader is bossing people around. And just be very aware and be very humble when somebody calls you on it for the first time. That's number one. Number two is that whether you are a leader or not, you might not be ready. And that's okay. You know, you might be put into a leadership role, and like me in my first year, man, I had a lot to learn, and I was really lucky that I had people that were gonna support me through that first year and just have that growth mindset of like I want to be a little bit better tomorrow. And I think I think that's huge. Now, the last thing I'll say too is and this this is a little controversial. Be willing to go to a different camp. You know, I think some of the best leaders that I've worked with are people that have gone away and maybe taken on a leadership role at another camp and then come back, or or like was a counselor at another camp. They're like, I I want to refresh, I want to learn, or I've suggested that to staff before. I say, hey, you know, I really love what you're doing here. If you have this opportunity, go check out another camp. Maybe do a day camp if you're an overnight person, maybe do like a specialty arts camp, and then come back after you've seen the way another camp has done it, and then come back and let's be a leadership staff member here. That sounds counterintuitive because it's like, oh, I've been working at this camp that I love and I and I just want to keep rising through the ranks. But better staff are the ones that have a more diverse perspective almost a hundred percent of the time. So don't be afraid to get out of your own little bubble. And maybe that means you could be a leadership staff somewhere else too, because you have this demonstrated skill or another camp is looking for that, and maybe there's just not room at your current camp to move into that role. So be open to going somewhere else if that's accessible to you. And and a great camp director will help you find that other camp job. They'll be willing to say, like, hey, you should go to the camp down the road because they're also awesome. There's a million kids out there, there's no real such thing as competition in the summer camp world. So feel free to dance around a little bit because it's going to make you a better staff member ultimately.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Yeah, especially for those people who you're talking about going to a different camp, is you get to see different operations. You get to see how others do it. And that opens up your mind to a little bit of what more can be done, especially combining things that you know and what you're now learning. It's great. I had a little something written down. I'll still read it, but something you did make me think about too is be ready to deliver tough news is a really big piece of advice. You know, telling a child, like, hey, we're not gonna get to do the giant swing today, or no, you got to wait another 20 minutes till snack, it's it's tough, but like at the end of the day, you're telling a kid and it's understandable and they're gonna be upset, and so you move on. But like telling a staff member, like, no, you're not getting that time off, or hey, there's been a change maybe in pay scales, whatever it might be, depending on what your camp requires you to have to deliver what news, it's not fun. Prepare to be someone who you know maybe it's not well liked because your leadership style doesn't mess with one of the people that you're leading. Those are all things to think about too. And we didn't really cover it, but like to be honest with you, like as a camp director, now like I know that there are staff that I've had who do not like me, they did not like me as a leader. That's not hopefully a bad thing on myself, but you just you know that like sometimes you have to do things or say things or or run a certain way because it's how you work and it's what you know your camp needs, and that doesn't mesh well with somebody else. And when you step into that leadership position and you st and you hold that ground, it might mean that you're not gonna get along with somebody and and um or you might have just have a bad situation that you have to handle and not everyone comes out of it in one piece. And it's a sad truth, and I would love it to be different. I think every leader would, but unfortunately it's part of it. So be ready for that if you're gonna become a leader. But my advice I was a little bit happier before I kind of started thinking about that part of the of the job was think about think about everyone, help who you can, right? I think that goes into what I was just saying a little bit. But you know, our job is not just one specific cabin, one specific camper any longer, but it is, you know, probably a large group of people. So you're trying to help as many as you can, but thinking about everybody. Think about tomorrow, be president today. I think we talked about that prep that preparation is really important, but it doesn't mean that you can ignore what's going on that day, right? Like you still need to walk out there, see the kids, talk to them, see how the flow of camp is going, that the activities are doing well. It's really important. The other is work when no one is watching. I think it's really important to understand and understand, sorry, that leadership sometimes is kind of a lonely job. A lot of times as a camp director, a lot of my leadership staff, they want to work together, they want to huddle in these groups and try and get things done. And like, nope, you guys got to separate and get stuff done. Like, this is not a this is not a two-person job, it's a one-person job right now. Go do it. So understand that sometimes you go to work when no one is watching, you get things done. I always like to try like what fills my ego a little bit in the back of my head with this is like I want to work so hard that people wonder how I get it done. That's the big one for me. That's like the little ego trip I have. I I never want to brag about it, I never want to brag about what I got it done. I just want people to kind of go, man, he did all of that. When did he do it? How did he do it? So what like if that that might be something for you that works, it's what works for me. And the last one I think is really important, and it's probably your most important thing as a leadership staff member is safety is practiced all the time, even if it's not seen. A big thing about leadership is you are constantly aware of what the safety requirements are, supervision of campers, child abuse prevention. It's you know, it's something that you're constantly thinking about, but it is not the thing that you are talking about all the time. And you know, before you go to do an activity where like maybe the kids are swimming in chocolate milk in a little kiddie pool, and you got to think, maybe the lactose-intolerant kids don't get to do this. But yeah, so safety is practice, even if it's not seen. And and that's my that's my advice for those on leadership for some things that are going on. And with that, that's the show. Matt and I are moving real quick today, but we have to do one more thing before we go, and that is our eggle. So we're ever growing, ever learning. It's a trick or a tip, a game or a song for counselors to use to be better every day. And uh, I'll start with mine real fast. What I have here, see if I can get them in front of the camera. But if you've ever watched the show Bear or if you've ever worked in a restaurant before, you'll see these guys, they're just little chef containers. They're plastic cylinders that you put a cap on. Some are small, some are big, there's different sizes. There's a set of 60 that I got for like 15 bucks on Amazon, and they're great for organizing crafts and other activities. I like the bigger ones to hold my supplies, and the smaller ones are great for the kids to work out of. So if you're like doing beads or something like that, it's really nice to put them in those and organize them for the kids that way. So, really, really great, useful tool to have for yourself. Matt, what is your eggle for today?

SPEAKER_01 39:47

My eggle is a board game called Sequoia. I really love games that are small that I can just toss in my backpack, and they're so easy to explain. Essentially, you roll five dice, you add, you pick two of them, add them together, and you're trying to bid to build the biggest tree with all the people you're playing with. And I think you can play with up to five people. It is that perfect like rest hour game for kids who aren't wanting to sleep. It's very easy. It's it's competitive, but not super competitive. So I'll put a link to it in the show notes. I definitely, definitely recommend it, even just to have for yourself to play. It's a super fun one. It's called Sequoia. Okay. Well, if you enjoyed today's show, we would be so grateful if you left us a review wherever you're listening, your ratings and reviews just to help get the show out there to more counselors. So we'd really be grateful if you took the time and just left us a review. Uh, five stars would be great too, if you're interested in that. Also, don't forget that you can find all of our show notes at gocamp.pro slash FCC. There's lots of good stuff there. You'll find the link to Sequoia and a bunch of other things that we talked about. So please make sure you go check that out. And as we always say here, camp is camp and camp's all good.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

First class counselors is brought to you by Beth and Travis Allison, Summer Camp Leadership Training and Marketing Consultants. Thanks for listening, friends.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Hey Camp Ros, we love that our industry is built on sharing. In order to foster that spirit, we hope that whenever you share an idea that you learn from the Camp Hacker Podcast, conference, summer camp professionals group, or wherever else, that you're quick to give credit where credit is due. That way, we can all encourage more camp pros to share the tips and tricks that will make camp better.