First Class Counselors

Camp counselors have the most important job at summer camp. Period. A great camp staff will have kids wanting to come back to camp year after year. First Class Counsellors is here to make great camp staff. Each week, we’ll cover practical and accessible tips that will level up your camp counselor skills. Our two hosts, Oliver Gregan, Summer and Families Camp Director at YMCA Camp Jewell and Matt Honsberger from Go Camp Pro are excited to be able to provide this resource to camp counselors.

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First Class Counselors

Connecting with Modern Camper Culture - First Class Counselors #85

May 07, 2026 • First Class Counsellors - from Go Camp Pro • Episode 85

0:00 | 59:00

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Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/first-class-counselors-pod/connecting-with-modern-camper-culture

How Digital Media Shapes Modern Camper Expectations

This episode explores the intersection of modern pop culture and the summer camp experience. The team discusses the transition from traditional play to the watching culture of YouTube and streaming services, emphasizing how counselors can use this knowledge to build genuine connections with campers. The conversation breaks down the differences between digital open world environments and physical skill building while offering practical advice on adapting facilitation styles for shorter attention spans and high sensory needs.

Key Takeaways:

Modern entertainment often focuses on the finished product rather than the process, leading to a watching culture where kids witness skills instead of practicing them. Counselors should combat this by building anticipation for activities and slowing down the process to ensure campers learn the mechanical steps behind camp traditions like fire building or archery.
You do not need to be an expert in Roblox or Bluey to connect with kids, but being curious about their interests is vital. Asking campers to teach you about their favorite digital worlds empowers them and creates a social bridge that helps new or hesitant kids feel included in the cabin group.
Digital play has shifted towards open world exploration and constant comparison, which camps can mirror through creative gamification. By rewarding positive character traits like integrity and grace through systems like ‘Green Giant’ points, directors can ensure that comparison remains a tool for celebration rather than just another form of competition.

E.G.E.L – Ever Growing, Ever Learning:

Oliver: Mio Flavoured Water

Matt: Water Skip Ball & Wave / Gate Ball

Sponsors:

Ultracamp
Camp is about changing lives, not chasing paperwork. Ultracamp builds tools that make camp smoother for today's camp counselor and tomorrow's camp leader. Learn more at https://ultracampmanagement.com/firstclass

Host Links:

Matt Wilfrid, Executive Producer of Podcasting at Go Camp Pro
Oliver Gregan, Executive Director at YMCA Camp Winona

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You can have competition. I think competition is a great little motivator, but it's your job as a counselor and as a camp to unpack how we win and lose and how we treat people being more important than the ultimate winning and losing. Think of those ways that that games have kind of incentivized exploration and uncertainty and bring those into your everyday at camp.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

This is First Class Counselors, another innovative podcast brought to you by Camp Hacker. First Class Counselors is dedicated to young and up-and-coming camp efforts. By equipping and empowering our on-the-ground staff, camp directors can rest easy knowing that our campers are having the true life-changing experience that parents expect. Find our show notes and our blog for camp leaders and professionals at camphacker.tv.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Camp is about changing lives, not chasing paperwork. Ultracamp builds tools that make camp smoother. For today's camp counselor and tomorrow's camp leader, learn more at ultracampmanagement.com/slash first class counselor.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Welcome to First Class Counselors, where we give camp counselors insider tips and advice on how to make a camper summer the best it can be.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

And whether you are brand new to the camp world or maybe you used to watch Saturday morning cartoons not on a streaming service, you know that growth mindset is built into the DNA of every great staff member, or as we say it here, every great first class counselor.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

My name is Oliver Griegan. I'm the director of camping services for YMCA Camp Westwood with the Pawtucket YMCA in Coventry, Rhode Islands. We are a rebuilding day camp that plans to introduce overnight camp.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

My name is Matt Wilfrid. My pronouns are he, him, and I'm the executive producer of podcasting and a consultant with GoCamp Pro.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Yeah, I think one of the favorite things that we do, Matt, is that you hint at what our topic's going to be in your intro every time. It's just a little like Easter egg right before we get to this. And today's show topic is about how every generation has its own different entertainment, right? If you spoke to our grandparents, they used to skip rocks in the river, you know, after a hard day's labor of hiking back to school, uphill, downhill, right? And that's what it was. And then childhood in the 90s, maybe for myself, you know, it was the likes of Pokemon, Power Rangers, and we snacked on some pop tarts. It was like classic Saturday morning cartoon kind of deal. Harry Potter was really popular. Percy Jackson, I think, was kind of near the end of like my age group, my millennial guys. Hardy Boys, a little bit more at the beginning, probably. I remember reading some investigative books with the boys. And then nowadays, kids have grown up with the access of internet in their hands and the entertainment, the things that they watch, whether on TV or YouTube, which we'll get into, has changed. And one thing that is, I think, true is that a counselor who might know of these things or has a decent grasp of them might be able to connect with their campers a little bit better. So we're not saying you've got to go and watch an entire season of Paw Patrol or you need to sit down and get some Bluey in. Although I will say that even as an adult, Bluey does the trick. Like it is a great show. I've watched it with my niece and nephew. It's fantastic. The power of Miss Rachel, if anybody has seen her, a child will instantly stop whatever they're doing when they hear her say hello on the TV. And then also, like other, you know, maybe a little bit of the older age groups. Like we see like Mr. Beast and stuff like that coming into play. So the these new entertainers, this new entertainment style, you can see a lot of what we've just talked about is digital, has changed for how kids entertain themselves and what they're interested in. And and sometimes a powerful counselor has the ability to be able to connect and has that knowledge of what these things are. So that's what we're going to be talking today. So you can see a little bit of how those things have changed and what that might mean in the grand scheme for our campers. Now, Matt, you have a disclaimer before we go into our episode here. What is your disclaimer? What do you want people to know?

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Yeah, so we're talking about pop culture and how it can and maybe can't be a connection point with when it comes to working with kids as a camp counselor. And I need to say right up front that I am a 35-year-old man and I am basically a boomer when it comes to pop culture. My reference point to Bluey is high because I have a two-year-old that has just we're not doing too much screens, but we've Bluey comes on in those clutch moments and it's great. Um but I I know nothing, really nothing about pop culture. So Oliver, I you know, we're both we're both of kind of the same ilk. Oliver, I think you're a little more connected to what's cool these days, but what what Oliver's gonna really lay out some of the things that that kids are experiencing in pop culture. I have no knowledge of that. But what I can tell you to do and and what I can help you with is how you can respond to this and how you can use those to make connections and what to be aware of. And also the underlying message here is that we want to make sure that camp remains uh a place that does not depend on pop culture, that pop culture actually doesn't interact with camp and it shouldn't be any sort of foundational part of the camp experience. But we would be silly to say that it doesn't work its way into camp because camps campers bring sometimes literally in their bags pieces of pop culture, whether it's the toys or the knowledge that they've they've gained from it, they're entering this space that is traditionally set aside from pop culture and they're bringing some of that in. So you being able to be thoughtful about how you respond to it and how you interact with that and being intentional about it is what we really want to be the underlying message for this whole episode. So we're gonna talk about how knowing these materials help you as a counselor. We'll talk about the world of YouTube and how that's gonna affect the camp experience, how kids are playing differently these days, whether it's like digitally online video games or tactile toys. What does brain rot mean within the camp context? And ultimately, how does this affect our activities and our facilitation? So, Oliver, I'll get you to kick it off and I'll just sit here in my little like boomer corner and I'll chime in with the like kids these days comments once it's my turn.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

Yeah, don't worry. We're we're starting a little bit more with that airplane airplane view, and I think you're gonna be able to offer a lot more into this. And that's like, how does knowing these materials help you as a counselor? And you know, Matt talked about it. Like sometimes these things end up in a backpack, but also sometimes your camp director makes it a theme of the week, right? You know, they see the big movie that's coming out. Maybe like Minecraft has been this big thing. I know that there was just a Jack Black and Jason Momoa movie about it that came out, and kids are really into it. This video game's been around a while, and as time goes on, camps that might have a theme or something going on. You know, you can't do the same theme that you were doing back in the early 2000s because it might not be relevant to the kids that are signing up. And and parents know that, right? Like you might be able to play with a theme like a parent liked, and they're trying to like, oh, we can send my kid to the camp week that is, you know, Percy Jackson themed because I love those books of a kid, and I want to make sure my kids get that experience. That's true, but at the same point in time, right, camps are gonna try and adapt a little bit to appeal to what kids might be looking for. So, you know, if you see that there's a frozen week or a Disney movie week that's coming up, it's good for you to understand, like the Disney that maybe you watched is maybe a bit different than the Disney they grew up on, right? Like I grew up with Aladdin, Pocahontas, Little Mermaid, like that core, I think they called it the silver age of Disney or something like that. And if you go and talk to a kid nowadays, like even Frozen is be is an older movie, which is crazy to me because I thought that was the freshest, newest thing. But it's like over a decade old now, and kids kids have kids are starting to move on, like they still sing along, but like Moana is kind of a bigger, bigger deal. And and I know that there's other Disney movies we might get into in a little bit, but I think that's that relevancy of what's going on. And and something that I say is a big reason why the majority of time counselors are you know between that 18 to 24 for many camps is because you're within that 10-year gap that allows you to really connect with your camper. So some of these things are not that foreign to you, like you may have just missed them, and going back and learning on them will really help you connect. I think also, too, for when you're facilitating or explaining something, you're able to reference these things, right? You can say, hey, this is the situation that so and so is in in that movie, or if you're facilitating an activity, something that I really think that I'm trying to bring into is like, how did Mr. Beast explain his games? They're typically simple, they're to the point, the challenge is very easy to understand. So Mr. Beast is actually a fantastic facilitator, and his method of going about it and the challenges he creates are very entertaining and kind of a good thing to steal. So being able to reference or use maybe some of those different things that are out there, I think are going to be really useful for you as a counselor. So a lot of times you'll hear a director say something like, Oh, we have to make things like a TikTok video, like seven seconds long, and and our and these attention spans are really short. And they're not wrong, like it's not completely something that's out of the picture. But at the same time, like some of these, like a Mr. Beast video is sometimes 30 minutes long. The the kids do have an attention span, but if you watch the videos, they are just quicker in their explanation. And it's the the shot is seven seconds, but the video is still 30 minutes. So if you're out there doing an activity for an hour, you can still entertain kids the whole time. It's just you got to understand that you're breaking that into a lot of smaller bits than maybe a previous generation of counselors had to. So that's kind of my points for like why this material is gonna help you out. It gives you those the ability to connect references and then a stronger facilitation skill if you know some of this stuff and you're watching it and you're and you're keeping yourself even on a baseline. Matt, what about you from this like airpoint view? Do you think is gonna be super helpful about having knowledge of kind of pop culture for kids?

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Yeah, I want to start by saying like talking and connecting with kids is hard. It's not a natural skill that everyone has, and it's something that takes a lot of effort. And I think we we've done past episodes. I'll get Ryan to toss some past episodes in the show notes here about like how to connect with kids, all that kind of stuff. But it's not easy. And pop culture is kind of an easy way to bridge that gap sometimes, and that if a kid is really passionate about something in pop culture, you know, it's it's an easier connection point. I think in my my boomer heart here is that I I think we should strive to be better than pop culture, that we shouldn't use it. But honestly, I I've used it too. Sometimes I use it to connect. So I want to give you kind of my again, you know, my bias about it, but here are some of the ways that you can kind of be thoughtful about interacting with it and not and how it helps you as a counselor. So a couple quick fire ideas here. So the goal, like Oliver said, it's not to be the expert, it's about helping you relate, right? It's at helping you make those connections. So surface level is totally okay, but even better is using these as springboards as ideas for connections, conversation starters, or or games. And so, you know, better than being an expert on something is also helping making those connections by being curious about what kids are really passionate about, what they love, asking really good follow-up questions, like, hey, what do you what do you like about that? Or like tell me about this thing. And just letting kids talk about what they're passionate about helps them feel more comfortable in a space. And then I think the next level is using that knowledge to help kids connect over common interests. Because we we've said this many times in the show. Our job as counselors isn't to make the camp experience about us, it's about them creating those great connections and having great experiences. So, even better, if you can use pop culture to connect kids with each other, I think that's like a a next level thing. Now, a couple caveats to that. Obviously, we need to know what is and isn't appropriate. Kids, kids come to camp knowing a lot more than they used to because the internet has given them, you know, an abundance of ideas, both good and bad, about you know, like the manosphere is something that we are fighting really hard against because we know how harmful it is. We know that like pranks and things like that get a lot of engagement online. So we know that we have to at least know that when conversations are starting to go down those roads, we have to redirect, we have to bring people back to, you know, what are the values of camp? What do we what do we care about here? It's also helpful um to remember though, not everyone has access to the same media, and whether that's because of things like internet, internet access or their their culture at home, what their parental limitations are, and and so we can't just rely on it because it's not fair to assume that kids are coming with that prerequisite knowledge, and it can make them actually feel like outsiders if they don't have that knowledge. And I think you as a counselor need to be really aware that kids can't, they might not advocate for themselves and say, hey, I don't really know what's going on. So you need to actually put yourself as the newbie so that other kids can teach each other and be good, inclusive folks for each other in the cabin. And again, camp is that ultimate connecting force. So steering the conversations towards the camp experience and what's happening is always going to help, but making sure you're really aware how using pop culture includes and excludes kids as part of the conversation and social dynamics in your cabin.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Yeah, Matt, you got me thinking about how like pop culture has this um almost exclusivity of the knowledge of it and connecting that back to almost the microculture of camp when new campers arrive and they don't know all the camp songs and all that stuff. It's it's almost the same thing, right? And that ability to educate somebody about what that culture is or what those references are is really important to make sure you don't leave someone out of the loop and make them feel like someone is left out. You know, even as a counselor, even sometimes when you know something, right? Like I know I've watched every episode of Bluey, right? But letting that five-year-old walk you through what their experience was watching Bluey and what they saw and their understanding of it, you know, really does allow you. And you just kind of, I don't want to say play dumb or play stupid, you could be like, oh, I haven't seen that episode, or I don't, I don't, that's not what I was thinking about. Can you tell me a little bit more? It gives you opportunity to connect. And not only that, but gives that camper the opportunity to do something where they feel like they're educating you, they're teaching you, they're they have knowledge, they're becoming independent, they're they're becoming more of their own individual person. It's a huge moment for kids when when they get to get to the stage where they recognize like, oh, I understand things too. I know stuff that I can share. And I think that pop culture offers that opportunity too. And you can definitely take advantage of it when there's something that you expect. Maybe you don't know. I still don't understand Roblox and Minecraft. I just it just I'm not a video game person. It's it's never been my thing, maybe like a little bit in college, but like it's gone for me. And I have probably sat there a hundred times and said, like, oh, I don't really can you explain skins to me. Can you like do you you collect what and the what how I don't right? Just that alone gives these kids this oh my god, you don't know about skins? Let me tell you about it. So like you've got to earn them, but you could also pay for them, and then you earn these token points, and I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Like this is just I'm thinking completely about something else. I'm trying to understand what they're talking about, but they're so excited to be able to share this thing with you. And I think that's one of the great forces that comes from from this pop culture that we're talking about today. As we continue into the show, one of the things that we want to kind of focus on too is how this world has changed for how they entertain themselves. And and one thing that I really want to point out that's that's changed, and I'm we're calling it like the YouTube world, but it's this streaming world, the the ability to have the ability to watch somebody else doing something readily available at any time, right? Like I grew up in a generation where like you had to be home if you wanted to watch your TV show at a certain time, and if you didn't catch it, you didn't get to watch it. Sometimes there would be a rerun on like the weekend or something, but you nowadays with streaming and everything, that's completely changed. You can watch whatever show you want at any time you want, and that availability is instant gratification in its own right. That's a whole conversation to this, but it also means that we have a pretty strong what I call watching culture. So we have a generation who's growing up, maybe not experiencing things, but seeing things, right? They see what, and we'll use some pretty lame examples here, but they see someone change a tire and they think like, oh, I could do that. That's pretty easy. But they've never done that action before. They see someone kick a soccer ball over and over and over again. They've watched it happen a thousand times on a screen, but they're not going out and practicing three, five, six days a week like maybe a performer generation was. And that's not me going out there and saying these guys are lazy, they need to practice more. That's not, I'm I'm saying that, you know, the kid who wants to go play soccer is going to play soccer, but there's also a a developing group of kids who have who are not the soccer players, who are developing these experiences through watching, not through experience. And and that means that there's some skills that are getting left out on. One of the big things that I do with my staff as I say, how many hours a week do you spend streaming through TikTok or Instagram reels or whatever? And you know, that may be sometimes up to about two hours a night, and you do that for a full year. How many hours is that that have been spent doing this activity that is quick, satisfying to the to your brain, but not really practice-oriented, that could have been probably going towards something else. And you know, everybody needs their time to relax and take a moment, but we do see that the skill sets of our of our counseling team and of kids as they're growing up is is lagging behind, right? I never would have thought that having to teach fire building was going to be a core thing I have to do every single summer with my staff team. I it I was just so natural for me when I was a counselor and my and there was nobody I remember in my counseling like group that struggled with it. We all just like, oh yeah, we need a fire, let's go start with it. And now as a director, if I go, hey you guys, can you guys start the fire for s'mores? I get you know six to ten counselors who look at me with blank eyes and go, I've never started a fire before in my life. Right? So there is a definite skill set there that's coming from this watching culture where maybe they're not getting as many experiences as possibly had. The the next things that I kind of want to go into is is a little bit of what these things are. So in this YouTube world, I I love watching Mr. Beast. I think he's a great example of kind of this modern entertainment for kids. And he's creating these giant challenges that are very simple to understand. There's a giant prize, and he sets it up so that throughout stages there's weight to the decisions that have to be made by the contestants, right? It almost goes back to like kind of classic survivor, which is, you know, they would extend for 23 episodes and a full season, and he does it in about 30 minutes. And some of his challenges are a hundred days long, right? He I think he challenged a gentleman to be in this gym for like a year, a full 365 days, or until he could lose 100 pounds, and then there was a prize money that he got. That's a really long extended period of time that took up this man's life, and they shrank it down to a really short amount of time. What does that mean for kids? Is you know, that gratification of what's the finished product, what is this gonna be, the process is getting lost sometimes. So when you're going to run a game or set up, like get into your zipline gear, whatever it might be, their mindset is, oh, we're going to go to zip line. I'm gonna be on the zip line any second now. But then you go through, oh, okay, here's your gear, this is the safety, this is how you put it on, this is what you need to do, this is how it's gotta be tight. All of a sudden, what you realize is a zip line is 20, 30 seconds maybe of a turn, yet they just spent 20, 30 minutes getting geared up with 15 other kids. So the image of what they have in their head from watching Mr. Beast and his challenges or whatever other things on the internet where you skip the process. Your how-to videos are you know, sanding a board takes 20 minutes. You saw it happen in 10 seconds, or you have that piece of fruit and they hit it with a knife and it just falls into pieces, right? Even the cutting and cooking is disappearing, how long you're boiling something for. These are all things that are on videos that they're starting to miss. The other thing too is sometimes they're not even interacting with it, they might be watching somebody else. So the streamer digital. So something that I've started doing is we have kids who want to sit out of activities because they want to do it, but something that they love doing is watching it. They just want to watch some other kid play gaga. They want to watch some other kid do these things. So that's almost an activity in itself. And I think this comes from like a lot of the streaming that's going on too. And then I think something that Is a little bit getting a little bit more part of these videos. Is there's a lot of foreshadowing, there's a lot of hints or sneak peeks and building of anticipation for what's going to happen. And that's how these videos are designed. And I feel like you need to start doing this in your camp so that you can keep these kids and their attention drawn in. Because sometimes you'll have a camper who is just completely disinterested because you've told them exactly what you're going to go do. Oh, we're going to archery. Right? But as they're not excited about because you just told them now you've got to try to say, okay, we're going to be doing a program here where you're going to launch something. Can you tell me what you think that might be? Right? You've got to get their brain working a little bit. You've got to get them anticipating what might be happening. You're going to say, the next activity we're going to has targets. Right? The next activity that we're going to be going to is over 10,000 years old, right? You're setting this stage, you're creating this anticipation, you're making them wonder what they might be going to. And it gives you conversation as you're walking down the path to get to where you need to go, too, right? Like it is its own form of entertainment to keep things going. Matt, I've talked a lot about this YouTube world. I hope they set the stage really well for you coming into it. But what are some of the things that you're thinking about when it comes to some of these things that I just talked about? This internet world that kids are now entertaining themselves with.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

I think you you hit on a lot of the really big points, and I think it's really thoughtful to consider how you know people like Mr. Beast creates his videos and you lose the like behind the scenes content. I mean, behind the scenes content is out there on YouTube. Like people like watching how the sauce is made, but not nearly as much about just watching the thing for it is. So the only thing I wanted to really pick up on from what I've seen in my limited experience is that when we were kids and watching stuff, we were watching like cartoons produced by that. There wasn't a lot of like the hosts that were presenting stuff to us when we were kids at least. There was like YTV in Canada, and like maybe like MTV had like a video DJ or something like that. But now everybody can be a content creator, right? If you're on Twitch or on YouTube, your channel is about you. It's like you get ready with me in the morning, you watch me unbox toys, you know, like I'm gonna show you my talents, even if they aren't like, even if I'm not the best singer, people are posting themselves because that kind of like authentic follow me along culture is there. So I think where that's actually really positive is that kids might be actually more comfortable taking on leadership roles if they're not, even if they're not like super amazing at something. They're willing to like make mistakes and be authentic, and we should encourage that. So making sure that like talent shows are opportunities that maybe if your camp doesn't do a talent show, can you do one in your cabin or can you let kids like explain how they're setting the table at lunch or you know, presenting the dessert in a in a fancy way, or like arranging the food on their plates in a neat way, like giving opportunities for their individuality to shine, I think really works well with this like Twitch content creator generation that they're coming into. And then you know, I I think a lot because they have seen the Mr. Beasts and the Mark Robers and those types of people, helping unpack you know what makes those videos engaging and in conversation with them, but like why was this so cool? Or what you know, what what made you keep watching? Why did you want to do that? And then asking them the question, especially with older campers, you know, how can we do that at camp? You know, how can we do that type of thing in a game? Do you want to set up like it what Mr. Beast is doing in a lot of his videos that I've seen, he's just making really well-produced obstacle courses, right? And there's like stakes, there's like million-dollar stakes to who can do this obstacle course without stepping on the like pool noodle. You can make those types of things at camp and but do them in the campy environment that helps connect with the natural world. And and I I I think using it again as a jumping off point, you're not trying to recreate a Mr. Beast video, but you're using and helping kids think critically about what they're consuming and reproducing the best parts about it. Now, you don't have to take all the things about it. Like, I think, you know, depending on who the content creator is or whatever they're watching, I think there's a lot of things in there that we'll talk about later that you might like throw away from those videos, the way that they approach competition or the way that they treat other people in those videos, or or you know, how like pranking is a big part of that culture. You know, you're gonna have to steer them away from those influences and and again reconnect them with camp. But it's not again, it's not about replicating, it's about taking the best from it and then integrating it into the camp environment.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

I love the Mark Rober shout out because I'm I'm definitely a Mark Rober fan. Anytime you can check Mark Rober out, you guys. I think I've used him as an eggle as well, just like his videos are great and they're educational. And you could definitely, he has like he ran like a digital summer camp during COVID. So I I firmly believe he's one of us in a way. You know, he's a little bit of a summer camp guy in his in his own secret way. So shout out for Mark. Also, if he wants, like, I don't know, come on the show, that'd be really cool. I don't know. I mean, you want to know for Mark? Yeah, but like kind of getting into it too, is you you know, we're seeing these different materials, like we're seeing that the entertainment style is is a little bit more digital. So that it's created a very big difference in play, right? And like if you go through the history of play, right? It used to be like go out to the street and play. And then 90s it almost became more like, well, you've got to join the team to go play. Like, if you want to go play soccer, you've got to be on a team. Like there's a there's a travel team, right? And it's and it's elevated since then, and and there's become a little bit more of an extreme to how people can get into an organized group of play. It's not just you know, pick up any longer. In fact, there's that crazy statistic that I think I see floating around all the time, and I'll get it wrong, but the distance of play from one's home has dramatically changed. You know, at one point in time it was like you know, five miles that a kid would play on average away from their house. They'd hop on a bike and go see stuff. And now this difference in play is that the average kid is 50 feet from their bedroom or something like that. So it would just wild to think about that difference in distance. Um, and it's because they have access to their friends and their entertainment right there, right? It is readily accessible in in their house. So, you know, if you kind of break down some of these plays, if you're looking at video games, a huge difference is, you know, in the 90s when we were playing Mario, you were going through a concrete level, right? You'd be playing Mario, and you know, you'd have three lives and you died and you'd have to start over again, right? But like the you would be constantly problem solving through one instance, where now a lot of the video games that could play, whether it's Roblox or Red Dead Redemption or some of these other games that have changed, remember, I'm not a video game guy, they're an open world. They are you are running around everywhere. There is no direction. There is you it is problem solving in in this space, which is phenomenal for their growth, but it's still within the contained and developed environment. I know a lot of people were really interested in what AI will do to video games in the future, but but I think one of those big things is that these games are either a fast play, right? So, you know, uh a Roblox round may only last about five minutes, 10 minutes, and then it's right into the next one. Very similar to those third person or first person shooter games that were really popular in the early 2000s where like things got a little bit faster. And another big change is that you know there used to be the split screen, right? There used to be you, like Matt and I right now are in a split screen doing this, but we are very far apart. Used to be sitting next to your buddy playing these video games. I remember running an Ethernet cord down my college dorm so that we could all connect our TVs and be able to play. Like you could if you were playing Mario Kart, you could shove your buddy to gain an advantage and Mario Kart. Not sit not, you know, saying that's allowed, but you know, it was possible that you were doing it. So in the in these games, like now you are on a headset, you are you know miles apart from this person that you're playing with, you're still getting interaction, there's still this social part, but you're not interacting face to face, you're not seeing the body language of somebody else in front of you, you're not seeing their facial expressions. These are all things that have changed in some of this play, and we especially with becoming predominantly a digital form of play. Another thing, too, is you know, what does physical play look like versus this digital play? You know, something that I think about at camp all the time is we may say, like, hey, we're gonna go do fort building or shelter building, right, for survival or whatever it might be. And the collection of materials, how to attach it, how to create this structure, the engineering behind it is definitely a skill set. And, you know, if you take that and you combine it or you compare it to the Minecraft building, like yes, Minecraft has you go out and find resources and all this, but it doesn't, there's no assembly, right? You were just taking a block, putting it on a block, or you take an ingredient and ingredient, and then magically Minecraft puts the two things together for you. Those processes, those processes are not something that you're a part of. They just kind of happen. Whereas in the real world, when I take two sticks and I try to lean them against each other, they're gonna fall, right? I need to learn about the gravity, the physics, the I need to see those things in action. I need to know if I need to tie a rope around them to hold them tight. I need to know how to tie that knot, right? Those are all skill sets that come from this type of play creation that happens when we're in real life.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

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SPEAKER_02 32:36

So I talked a little bit about the social, I talked a little bit about that physical. Matt, what are some things that you see as a difference in play now in kind of some of this modern stuff?

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah, I want to really pick up on this the idea of like the open worldness. Now, I am a bit of a video game guy, so I think Oliver, you're right. Red Dead Redemption, like, think of the new Zelda games that are out there, Breath of the Wild, Tears of the Kingdom. Open world games are like a hugely popular game.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

Okay, Matt. All right, show it, show it.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

So, but I do think that there's opportunity here, whether it's a day camp or even like if it's in a like a college or university setting, I think giving them the opportunity to explore and take more time to do activities. Like a fire building session, like I I used to be able to like bang out a great firebuilding session in 45 minutes. There's no way you could do that anymore. Because you're right, Oliver, they need time to like experiment and make mistakes and snuff their fire out. And it just it because those skills have like atrophied, it takes more time. The other side of it, I'll use like the education word is gamification to take something and make it into a bit more of a game and engage them in it. So giving them structured ways to freely explore and give lots of opportunities to discover and find those little like checkpoints. So when you're playing Zelda or like any open world game, it's not you're not just like going from point A to B and nothing happens. The game still keeps you playing because there's like side quests that unlock, or you are you're like finding collectibles along the way. So you can integrate that into all of your sessions, especially nature sessions. I think I think like getting kids to explore the outdoors and like being curious, and if you can hide things in advance and give them little like subquests of how they need to interact with the world and like do rubbings of certain tree bark, I I'm I'm all for creating some new nature programs out there if anyone wants to hire me to do it for them. But you can do that yourself. The other thing is, you know, if you're gamifying your sessions, it's really just instead of you know, you're learning the basic archery skills, that's important. But once kids know how to even somewhat shoot a bow, there's opportunities there. How can you like level up? How can you unlock new abilities or you know, skills and equipments? Or maybe you've hidden like a deck of cards behind the archery target, and halfway through the session you reveal, oh my goodness, we have hit this number of cards. You're like, check this out. Someone left this like hidden message for us, and now we've hit the the the six and the seven. If you want to, you know, if I don't know if six and the seven is still gonna be a thing, but if if that's a thing, you know, you you've you've hit those cards, what other ones do we need to hit to unlock the code to do this thing later on at camp? Like just think of those ways that that games have kind of incentivized exploration and uncertainty and and bring those into your everyday at camp. And the other thing I want to share too is that video games, especially especially video games, but like content creation, this happens too. I think winning and losing has become even more prominent in like the general cultural space. It usually was just kind of sports before, but now because everything is like gamified online, we see winning and losing being like the ultimate goal in everything all the time. And I think it's our obligation as a camp, whether you're a sports camp or you're not, is to you can have competition. I think competition is a great little motivator, but it's your job as a as a counselor and as a camp to unpack how we win and lose and how we treat people being more important than the ultimate winning and losing. And I'll give you a really concrete example of the way that I did this at at my home camp. We were designing our some camps call it color wars or color games or Olympics or whatever. And if you're doing something like this, we created a point structure that really lived that value of winning and losing not being the only thing. So in any competition or any game, it was two points for the team who won the event, one point for the loss, and then there was also something we called the green giant point. So the green giant point, we the green giants were it was like the the blue dragons or the the red dragons and the blue knights, and then the green giants were like the convener of the game. So it was red versus blue, with green being the referees essentially. Now the green giant point was worth the same in the point structure as that two for the win, one for the loss. But every team or both teams had the opportunity to get a green giant point. And you got the green giant point if you were living the values of the games, which was like respecting each other, winning and losing with integrity and grace, like whatever the values were, both teams had the opportunity. Both teams had the opportunity to get that point. So that means that a team who won but were jerks about it, don't get the green giant point. They can only get the two points for the win. And a team that lost, if they lost with grace and they played with integrity and they encouraged each other, whatever that looked like, they could get two points and like tie in the grand scheme of things. And like people rolled their eyes a little bit about it for the first time, but now we're like 10 years into color games at my home camp, and that is a core part of the games. Is that green giant points are just as important to really value the games in there? And like realistically, almost all the time, green giant points are gotten, but you know, if things get out of hand, that's a very like natural gamified consequence in that structure there as well. And it's how we separate ourselves at in the camp world from the like everyday pop culture world.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Yeah, I know like here at the why I've always run with our color wars, it's honesty, respect, responsibility, caring, and spirit, right? So, like those are ways you can gain extra points during our color wars that have nothing to do with the gameplay, right? It and I I also think like we we talk a little bit about like everything is comp competition, and sometimes with this gamification, there's also competition against yourself, and that's that leveling up feature. So understanding, like, okay, well, we eliminated competition, okay, that's great, but a camper, a kid still sees them leveling up their ability, right? Like if you say that you gamify archery and hitting the target, right, then hitting the bullseye, these are all leveling up. But the problem sometimes that comes with this is even though they might not be directly competing with another camper, they still, in a way, are they are competing at what level they are compared to their peers, and they're competing with themselves on what they've been previously doing in the past. So just know that like that gamification is always gonna have some type of competitive nature to it, right? Of this comparison that is gonna be coming in there as well. And that's something that I like I try to be aware of when when we gamify things at camp is that you know, which is why we have more of storytelling weeks versus competitive weeks that we try to make those things happen too.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

I want to quickly just like I think language is so important too. And what I like, Oliver, you're drawing out is you're saying that kids are naturally going to live their lives not in competition, but in comparison, right? And comparison is not competition. And I I think that's okay that we we call that out. And and the way we compare at camp isn't saying like the way that we can change the narrative there isn't saying that, oh, this person's better or worse than me. This person is really great at this, or this person could really teach me something about this, right? We we have the opportunity to flip that narrative and not make comparison about competition, but make comparison about like celebrating and teaching. And I think that's the power. That's that that's pretty crunchy and takes a lot of work. But again, you as a camp counselor intervening in those moments and saying when a kid goes like, Oh, that person's so much better than me at archery, you can say, Man, they are they're really good. That's really awesome. I wonder what they're doing that is really helping them be so awesome, or saying that, like, well, do you want to ask them? And maybe they can show you, or or later on, you can prompt that camper to to do some teaching later on at a future session. So comparison versus I I'm gonna be chewing on that for the rest of the day, but no, I I think that's a great point too.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Something that I do want to like really quick points for this difference in play is one is I wanted to quickly mention I think a change that's happened in toys as well. For kids who grew up, you know, with Power Ranger action figures or Batman, right? Or you know, a doll, whatever it might be, or like the little kitchen that you could cook at. These toys have not disappeared completely. They're still around, they're still kids who use them, right? Like blocks, Legos, still all part of these the base of toys. But the something that's changed for I think Gen Z has the introduction of uh aesthetic or sensory-based toys, fidgets, slimes, the silicone poppets, stretchy toys, kinetic sand. While these squishmallows, right? These toys are they're they're a break from what we've traditionally seen, where a lot of the times toys are a reflection of kind of life, right? Like the original doll was mildly to teach how to care for another person, right? You have to take care of your doll, right? It's a social interaction with the doll, right? That your action picture goes on missions, right? Batman has to save the day, like you play out scenes in your head. And then there's been this change that like now we have fidgets, right? And now we have the silicone pop toys. We do slime, kinetic sand, where like kinetic sand for me was the sand. Like it was just sand, like you just play in dirt. Like we I dug holes in the backyard. That was fun time. We how deep can you dig a hole? So there's been this change with what toys are coming out with nowadays compared to like what once was. And I think that's an important thing to understand is I think sometimes these are to help access or help alleviate maybe anxiety or for attention, right? Or for that need, that that tactile need to touch something. But I think that's changed a little bit. The other thing, too, is a lot of the TV shows are now, like especially animations, are highly satisfying for visual and auditory stimuli. They are designed that way. They are speaking in a higher inflect pitch, they are quick, loud sentences, like the volume that you put your TV on is highly controllable. But also, you know, what was maybe a 50% volume for when I was growing as a kid is now a 75% volume for kids growing up. The the shows have just literally made themselves ladders to gain attention. And I think, too, a lot of the a lot of the things you might be watching, whether it's Bluey or Paw Patreon or Coca Melon, right? All of these things are heavily themed around EQ. They are dealing with sometimes difficult situations. And that is not to say that Avatar the Last Airbender did not deal with difficult situations, please. Great TV show that everybody should. Watch child or adults. But the the core purpose of a lot of these shows and the creators of this are intentionally saying no. We made this episode of Bluey to teach kids how to deal with loss. We made this episode of Bluey to teach kids how to understand that they might not be a part of this situation, that they might feel left out. Like a lot of these shows are starting to go down that route to focus on emotional intelligence. So I think some of those things are a little bit of a change. And Matt, is there anything on these categories that you would want to just touch on?

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Well, picking up on the types of toys, right? It's the difference between a Lego kit and Lego for building Lego's sake, right? It's it's imaginative play versus like the toy is what it is and it's for that function. And you know, with I've been seeing obviously like toddler toys in those these days, and and I really I really try to give my kiddo the opportunity for imaginative play wherever I can. So I wonder if we're making a shift back towards that. But like when you see like a laboboo doll or those types of things, it's kind of just like it's a it's to have the thing, it's not so much to do something with it, but it's like a status piece. So I don't know, camps are navigating that for sure, but it's also the difference between like making a craft versus going to a maker space at a camp. I know camps at like the a camp that I worked at completely ditched their arts and crafts program. They're like, we're not making things anymore, we're giving kids things to make things. And we might have a couple examples like sitting on a shelf of like, hey, I made this with the found materials that are here today for those kids who want the structure. But I think really encouraging folks to be curious and not always have like the perfect thing in mind when they're when they're doing when they're creating. Because even if we go back to like the the content that people are consuming, it's often like, hey, I'm gonna make this thing, or like I'm gonna do this, this style, and that the goal is like this very clearly laid out thing. So we have to push against that a little bit and be okay with like uncertainty and exploration because we know that that's really good for kids and how we can again kind of set camp apart from what they might be used to in their everyday.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

No, I think that's such a great point of a little bit of how we're changing that facilitation too, right? Like of that structure versus unstructured creation. And you know, like you know, you remember growing up as a kid and you'd make like the mud kitchen, right? And I've seen mud kitchens are coming back, like some camps are trying to build them. If you don't know what a mud kitchen is, it's literally like some form of a tabletop and mud. That is a mud kitchen, right? Like you grab some grass, you stick it in there, you see what happens, right? And that's that's a thing that's coming back. And I I don't I definitely don't deny it, but it's it's strange when you walk into, I think, like maybe a childcare center, a little bit less of that outdoorsy kind of camp, and you see a lot more of these fidgets or kind of entertainment tools instead of you know, in the place of kind of what you'd expect a toy to be there. And with that change of facilitation, right? What are some things that we're doing as camp professionals with all these changes we see? Like, I think having reveals, right? Being able to have that moment of surprise is really big. You know, these competition-based games I think have been really popular online. It's a great way to get kids' attention. We've talked about that. I think having a loud, projected voice, having that confidence to be up there on stage and change your pitch so that people pay attention, right, makes things a lot easier. And you're just emulating what kids are seeing online so that they maintain attention because it's what they're used to. They're a little bit more prepared for that. And uh, Matt, what are some other things that you would say you can do restructuring maybe your activities or facilitation that we haven't talked about yet? That might be a great way to help you out as a camp counselor this summer.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

Well, and it's funny because I think in this is where me being a boomer might actually help is like good facilitation has always done those things. Reveals, right? Using a loud voice, changing your pitch, changing how close you are to campers. Like we've talked about that stuff for years. So I would encourage folks to go back to our episode about facilitation because a lot of you know things that are gonna help. I I think we did talk even about like what how pop culture and the media kids are consuming, you know, is important to consider. So there's a bunch of tools there. Uh so I try to pick some ones that I don't think I mentioned before. So one of them is just really chunk the information that you're giving kids, their attention spans are shorter, so you can't give them five minutes of rules and expect them to understand all the rules of a game. So I it's like I give no more than three points that they need to know, and then I check for their understanding, or or it's like three points to go and do this next thing, and then three points to go and do this next thing, and I'm checking their understanding all along the way to make sure that everyone's on the same page because they like ADHD or not, as someone who has ADHD, like paying attention for longer than three things is really complicated and really hard these days. That's just like it's just the way it is. There's no point like lamenting or trying to fight against that. We want people to be successful, so we need to make sure we're teaching to the level of comprehension that folks have. Um, also, like in that attention span thing, if you are debriefing or processing an activity, whether it's like a ropes course or a team building or or anything, just you have to remember that the like big sit-in-a-circle debriefs that you know that Oliver, you and I might have been trained to facilitate and ask thoughtful questions and those types of things, you're gonna need more opportunities for them to be engaged. Facilitation is just is like almost all about making sure that folks are engaged and intentional in the process. So giving opportunities in your debrief to, you know, process on their own, give them tangible, like tactile processing tools or partner processing where they ask questions of each other so that people aren't just sitting in a circle waiting for maybe their chance to talk because they might not do it. And and just keeping in mind that the way that people are focusing on things, we need to be a little bit more explicit about what we're doing and like kind of being secretive or not so much using sarcasm, but like not being direct about things isn't going to work for as many audiences, especially staff. I remember reading something, I'm sure people know about this, but they are writing TV shows now, more like adult TV shows, but they are writing shows with it in mind that people are on their phones as they're watching shows. So they're dumbing down the plot, and characters are being much more explicit about like, oh, they were dating this person, and then like two minutes later, they'll be like, Yeah, they were dating this person. They're just being so much more on the nose about how they're writing shows. And it's it is it makes me so sad that that's where we're at, that like they're they're catering to that. But I think it's just about us being aware that we can make Camp Magical with great themes and stories and those types of things, but we got to be a little bit more on the nose about maybe how we're explaining those plot points.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

Yeah, I think there's a pro there's probably a few significant others who have the partner who doesn't pay attention as well, and now they don't have to be explaining the plot of the movie as much, who are probably thankful about that, or probably really frustrated that they have to be like, You've already explained this the five times. Why are we doing this again? So for all the for all those who pay attention to movies pretty intensely, we'll see we'll see how you like this change and and how things are going. But I think a lot of great points today. I I think having a small grasp on pop culture, I think, helps a lot. It's not necessary. You could live under a rock and make that cool, you know. Kids come out and you're the just the woods guy, be that person. I think at the end of the day, you being who you are as a counselor is going to be the best type of person you can be for the kids, right? These are these are just ways for you to understand the the changing times and the and the change of what kids are experiencing when they're not at camp, which is a huge thing that you as a counselor have to understand that these kids come from a world that is not always the sunshine and rainbows and the fun, exciting parts of camp. So I mean, this is just hopefully a positive way that you can get it get a hold of it. Hopefully, Matt and I didn't get too down the weeds about our soapboxes and kids these days. But with that being said, we do finish our show every day with an eggle. So ever growing, ever learning. So this is a trick, a tip, game, or song for counselors to use to be better every day. Matt has already made fun of me for the one I have chosen. I went with, for you guys know, the like like Mio. It's like the little squirt bottle. You put it into like your water bottle and it flavors your drinks for you. And yes, I will say that if you bring a Mio, bring enough to fill everyone's water bottle, right? It's a nice little treat, especially for trip to counselors. But I'm not, I even I agree with Matt. I'm not a huge fan of the counselor who just secretly pulls it out of their pocket and squirts it into their water bottle just so they can be drinking something, and then the kids catch them, and you shouldn't be putting it into kids' drinks either, but without like, you know, it being like the thing that you're that you have at your disposal, right? So I say trips counselor's great tool on trail to have a nice little like pink lemonade when out there on your third day of the trip and everyone's been drinking boiled water. But if you're like a on-camp counselor, maybe this is a treat for you when the kids have gone to bed or something like that, not something that's getting pulled out every single lunch because you don't want to keep drinking water and you've gotten bored of it. So, or bug juice isn't your thing anymore. Matt, what is your eggle for today? Or do you want to give me a little soapbox on your feelings about Mia?

SPEAKER_00 54:08

No, we don't always have to agree on our eggs. That's okay. That's the you know, different strokes for different folks. That's that's fine. No, I I I I you know, I'd be lying if I said it when I was I didn't have in the staff lounge my own like little they were I don't remember what they were, they were like the powder form when they first came out, but we our camp director was very firm on us not having those except in the staff lounge. So that that was fine. My goal is a game that I invented using you can use a specific tool for it or any like any ball that skips off the water is how you're gonna play this game. And I there's two that kind of follow the same concept. So I I'll in the show notes I put a link to those like water bouncing balls. They're those kind of the they come in different sizes, but they're meant to bounce off the water. And the two games that you can play that I've I think I've invented, I don't know, it's not very creative, but it's a fun game. It's called wave ball or gate ball. So I'll explain essentially the concept is you're throwing the ball at your partner who is like you know pretty far away from you, and it has to skip off the water. And the goal is that your partner touches it but doesn't catch it. So that's wave ball. And playing with waves is super fun because it makes it the ball bounce in weird places. You can play it with like a volleyball or a football, anything that bounces off the water. But if your partner misses it, then it's like and it's a reasonable throw, then it's it's no sorry, and it's not a reasonable throw. If it's like out of their arm's length, no points are exchanged. If your partner is within their arm reach, if they touch it or it hits them and then goes behind them, so it bounces off them essentially, that's a point for you as the thrower. If they contain it and like it lands, it bounces off them and lands in front of them, that's no point. If they catch it, that's a point for them. So it's really just this like dumb game that I made up with my friends, but it's super fun to play during free swim, you know, if you've got time for that. And then gate ball is when you play it with two people and you and your partner, it's like two versus two, and you and your partner stand side by side, um, and then about like a meter or what's a meter, like four feet apart from each other, and you put your arms out, and your arms are the only thing that's the goalie. Is that a yard? As a yard, yeah. Between you and your partner, you create the goal. You are the goalpost, and your hands are the goalie. And then the you take turns skipping the ball off the water and trying to get it through the goal when you can only use your hands to defend it. It's just like dumb game, but super fun. All you need to do is carry around a ball that skips off the water or get one at the waterfront. But they're two games that have like I I play them all the time at free swim with kids because I think it's just it's just dumb fun. And skipping a ball off the water is just like it's cool. So why not?

SPEAKER_02 56:59

It's actually, I've never seen those before, so I was trying to look them up on Amazon as you were describing. I was like, oh, cool, that seems sick. All right, cool. So if you enjoyed today's show, we would be so grateful if you left us a review wherever you're listening to this podcast. Your ratings, reviews not only tell us what you like and don't like about the show, but helps boost our rankings and helps more people discover the show.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Yeah, the the best thing that you can do is just send this to a camp buddy. If if you if you're like, oh, I saw this cool episode or I checked out one of their past shows and it was really cool, just send it on to somebody else. We want this to get out to as many camp counselors or camp staff or camp directors as possible. And if you want to check out the show notes, you can go to gocamp.pro slash FCC and our good buddy Ryan, who edits this show. Ryan, thanks for a great season of editing. We'll throw a bunch of links up there for you to check out more our eggs and anything else we mentioned in the show.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

And remember, camp is camp and camp is all good.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

First class counselors is brought to you by Beth and Travis Allison, Summer Camp Leadership Training and Marketing Consultants. Thanks for listening, friends.

SPEAKER_00 58:11

Hey Camp Pros, we love that our industry is built on sharing. In order to foster that spirit, we hope that whenever you share an idea that you learn from the Camp Hacker Podcast, conference, summer camp professionals group, or wherever else, that you're quick to give credit where credit is due. That way, we can all encourage more camp pros to share the tips and tricks that will make camp better.