Thank you for sticking with us over this past year! It has been a hard road, but I would have not have wanted to do it with anyone else. I hope this episode is a fun one for you all, and we will be back next week with a regular episode.
Can you Rate and Give us a Review in Apple Podcasts?
Thank you to all of you who helped us reach our goal to pay off our equipment for this podcast! If you would like to still financially support us for the monthly upkeep and to help hand off some of the editing responsibilities, you can give a one-time donation or become a Patreon member for as little as $5 a month. See the links below. Thank you!
Things Discussed on Episode:
Thank you for sticking with us over this past year! It has been a hard road, but I would have not have wanted to do it with anyone else. I hope this episode is a fun one for you all, and we will be back next week with a regular episode.
Can you Rate and Give us a Review in Apple Podcasts?
Thank you to all of you who helped us reach our goal to pay off our equipment for this podcast! If you would like to still financially support us for the monthly upkeep and to help hand off some of the editing responsibilities, you can give a one-time donation or become a Patreon member for as little as $5 a month. See the links below. Thank you!
Things Discussed on Episode:
Yeah, isn't that phenomenal. Now my processor is not keeping up and then a nice little snow at the end. We can keep that going all day. If we want to,
Mark Kissler:there's a complicated
Matt Boettger:graphic. Isn't it really complicated graphic. Hey, check this out. Welcome to the pandemic podcast, everyone. This is Matt, Dr. Stephen Kissler, Dr. Mark Kissler. We're going off the script on, well, we usually do an intro and today we're not because it's our, it's our birthday. We turned one today. You guys look so grown up. I wish you would have had the stashes.
Mark Kissler:I know me too, but I wish that every day without a mustache,
Matt Boettger:man, I But it's nice. You're both without a mustache. Just kind of keeping it good. We're like you guys are first got to have the, both of the mustache could hard to tell you part. And I use both habit. So kids are twins. This is great. Well welcome everyone to the Penn nugget podcast live we're streaming through my personal Facebook, through the pandemic. And then we, we put up our own YouTube channel. We have two subscribers. It's huge. We're we're we're we're going viral. On YouTube. So check it out. We have a special episode today, so we have a lot to cover like fun stuff, because this is going to be about reflection. So about the past year it's been going on how this all got started, all this great stuff. So I want to get started with talking about. You guys, man, it's been a year, March 5th was our first episode and I want to share right now, this is all, you know, Stephen and Mark have no clue about what's going on. They're just like, just like just sitting ducks right now. And you know what, you know what, we're what we're chasing this on. We're going to do a roast instead of a toast. I'm gonna, you know, we're gonna modify everything and just roasting for an hour. No, we're not gonna do that. We have a lot of things I want to honor you guys for. But the first thing we'll get started with is, Oh, you listen to, this is our first part of our first episode. It's three minutes long guys. Hang in there, listen to this. This is snippets from our very first episode, right? So I know you guys never like listening. To Mark. I know you hit, you cannot seem to listen to your voice, even though you have such a great voice. It's phenomenal. So here is from our first episode I hope I haven't tagged up correctly. A little snippets of what was going on. We first got on. Here we go. Set the stage of what, like as of today with the what's March, March 5th, March Thursday, where are we at with the Corona virus in the U S. Over the past couple
Stephen Kissler:of weeks, we've seen increase in the number of cases of coronavirus in the United States. And I think that Well, as it stands today we have on the order of a hundred confirmed cases. So those are people who have been tested or presumed positive for the virus. And the last I checked there were, there've been 11 deaths so far.
Matt Boettger:And a follow up question with that is, okay. So we're looking at, in the United States that a hundred confirmed cases. Right? Right. So this seems disproportionately huge as a rate of death. Can you speak into this briefly? Like, is it just, are we seeing a higher a worse virus or is there something else involved possibly here?
Mark Kissler:I was just wondering, I've seen a couple of different statistics comparing this Corona virus to some of the other flu pandemics that we've seen in terms of you know, mortality or, you know, case fatality rates. Can you. Speak a little bit to what you're seeing with
Matt Boettger:that.
Stephen Kissler:Probably distill this into a couple of key questions that we're still trying to answer. So one of them is, is that mortality rate, which carries along with it, then really just how many people are actually getting infected with this thing. That's really, the primary question that people are interested in learning is, is, is, is, is how widely is this thing spreading? And what does that mean for its severity?
Mark Kissler:Yeah. You know, that's I think you're pointing to another really important point, which is when we think about the transmissibility of a lot of these diseases and correct me, you know, students based on this understanding, there's a component that's intrinsic to the disease, right? There's a certain amount. That each virus has a degree of transmissibility, you know, this is higher or lower than other viruses, but there are also other modifiable things that go into that calculation. Like for instance, you know, schools being open or closed for that sort of thing. Can you talk a little bit about that and kind of your modeling,
Matt Boettger:like what are the, what are the most common ways it's given to another person? But clearly it's not just surfaces, right? It's like the level of services. Like whether it's a box or it's on stainless steel, that kind of stuff. So like on the news, I just heard my wife talking about a friend who had an article that needed, like buy a bunch of water and put in their house. And you know, what's the realistic perspective at this point in time. And, and basically I think the biggest question I have is like why you can be asymptomatic and have no symptoms and you're contagious. So there's no way to Even no whatsoever. And so there's, there's a, there's a really feeling a sense of feeling out of control. And I know you said that is true, but you mentioned something about how there seems to be evidence that there's a, there's a difference a little bit between the asymptomatic contagiousness and those who actually have symptoms. Can you speak a little bit, maybe what. Small things you've seen there. How in your life are you trying to maintain a sense of realness? Right? How are you, how you were saying ground and what advice do you give to someone who is hearing to bombard of all their friends have like basically built a bunker going to ground and the come out and maybe a few years. And this kind of apocalyptic nature. How are you guys? How are you guys trying to remain grounded? As a family and in your work that's a year ago. So March 5th, some things have changed dramatically, a hundred cases right now we're at millions of cases. We're, we're, we're storing water. We're afraid as heck. We don't know what to expect. And now we're in this whole different ball game. So appreciate you guys and take us along this whole journey, helping me. We're going to talk about that and a little bit of reflection. But just how we got here. And there's people who just gave some comments, I'll post this and just sit in this, but I want to start with this. One of my favorite moments, there's lots of them is a story, you know, and this is, this is, this is going to be fun about your guys' childhood about elementary school. Right, right. So that was like, I gotta get, I gotta learn about you guys. Like. You're just, you're not just adults now. You guys were little, little kids and you were like little smart kids too. And so I thought, what better time than to bring on a guest to talk about your elementary school times to the, to the crowd. So I thought let's bring on, I have Kiersten right here, so let's, let's.
Mark Kissler:Wow. It's so good to see you. I can't
Kirstin:wait to see you guys. This is so much
Matt Boettger:fun. It's been, it's been great to have you a Kiersten. Thanks for coming on. So fun. Now, am I getting choppy? I'm on a, I'm on a Mac that with four people on here, Michael go choppy. But nonetheless, we're going to try to make this happen. Kiersten. I want to hear, and I went for the, for everybody listening of a story about Mark and Stephen, then maybe just anything you guys that could just embarrass them incredibly, largely, or whatever you got, but want to hear about how they were as kids and how they change as adults.
Kirstin:Well, actually the amazing thing is.
Matt Boettger:That actually does not surprise me. They look like little kids.
Kirstin:Oh, well, I actually got to know first their mom who is the most amazing, generous, joyful kind woman that I've ever known. And so 28 years ago, it was my first year teaching. And I think I had marked in my second year, possibly. Mark. Did you ever spend the night in the classroom?
Mark Kissler:I don't think so.
Kirstin:I only did that one time, so it was pretty crazy. But anyway, with all the whole class, not just
Matt Boettger:one student,
Kirstin:so I got to know Jodi and so she would come into my class. And help out with everything, but so she was so. Super app, just so encouraging to me as a new teacher. And so I was always amazed because I just, I couldn't teach Mark. He was so smart. He did, he probably did six months old. I don't know. He was more like a Doogie Howser. Like he could have taught all the way up to sixth. Great. And so, but Jovian was always, she was always so encouraging and just always trying to you know, say it's okay. You know, and I just, I respected her actually keeping the boys at their grade level and never like skipping them ahead grades when they really actually could have. But I have a couple of fun memories with Mark. One is going to one of his soccer games. Because I used to always tell my students that I always, we made an end of the school year video where I would go visit all the kids and different things they did. And they invited me to soccer games. And so that was really fun to just watch him play and The other one was, we were doing a poetry unit and most third graders are, you know, roses are red, violets are blue, you know, just very rainy and Marlboro does incredible poem, but it's still in the castle rock elementary library, but it was from the perspective of a book. And it was so amazing. And so it just, it was incredible. And so everyone loved it. They framed it in the library and hung it up there. And I just love that. So those were, those were just a couple of my memories. See, and I actually never had Stephen in my class. He was kind of a surrogate student that I just. I love it. Cause I loved Mark and I'd love this long. And so classic story, of course. I know you guys said it was we had a school assembly and. There was, I think my, my computer,
Matt Boettger:Nope, you're good.
Kirstin:But we have a school assembly and he had a substitute teacher that day and the teacher just filed out of the gym, back to the classroom. And all of a sudden I saw Stephen just kind of wandering in there. And so I went up and asked him if he was okay. And he just said, I don't know where my classes. And so I just walked him down to his room. It was. So cute. But one of my favorite memories of Meagan is we used to meet at Villa Jenn and go to lunch and, or meet at the outlet malls and go to lunch and stuff. And so One day, we were at village Inn and Stephen was in first grade. I think reading the book Matilda by Roald Dahl, which is like a sick and he was cracking up and just actually he was reading and sticks in my mind. I was so amazed by that, but. Is this a dream for teachers, especially younger kids, you don't ever really get to see them. And I've kept in touch with Jodeen through Christmas cards and phone calls. And I just have gotten to hear boys and all the wonderful things that you've done. I went to see you too. So that was fun to, to hear about your years there. And I'm just so proud of you and it's just wonderful God given gifts that you have. And how you are just humbly using them. It's it's amazing. So I just love seeing your faces. I love listening to this podcast. I know someone famous
Matt Boettger:me too. Stephen, Mark.
Mark Kissler:Thank you so much. What a treat to see you. Cool.
Kirstin:Well, I would love to see you in person.
Matt Boettger:Maybe we can,
Kirstin:I got to go to lunch with your mom and your dad and your grandma. Right before we met in Colorado Springs. Wonderful.
Mark Kissler:Well, we'll have to do what we'll have to get all together again once we're, once we can. That sounds great.
Matt Boettger:Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on. It's so awesome to, I was like, Oh, night when I first saw her last week. Well, we kind of came on to test this stuff. I'm like, Oh my gosh, like, what did you teach them when she, when you were like 18 years old? So that was the thinking in my mind. It just differently. And I'm like, great. You are a new teacher. The end of it. That's us. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on Kiersten and just honor them and listen to the podcast and hope you have a wonderful day. Thank you so much. Thanks
Kirstin:for having me. You guys take care.
Matt Boettger:How's that?
Mark Kissler:There you go. I knew, I knew that when I came on and you were so excited, man, I was like, Oh, okay, we're going to see what happens.
Matt Boettger:And this is, this is, this is a full-on cool fun stuff going on. It's hilarious. Yeah, Molly from Ohio says, oops, got that messed up. Happy birthday to us. Awesome. So this live to live. So we get there, we can see that on live. If we've got happy birthday. And we got, so we're B this for a podcast version. Oh, this is somebody I don't think anybody's ever ever seen before. Who is this person? Katie Kissler. That'd be
Mark Kissler:good. The secret is my secret wipes. Make fun of me, cause I don't talk about the families so much.
Matt Boettger:Well, that reminds me. I should have brought on. I should have brought an alley on this. To do a follow-up to make sure that he still doesn't get lost and that she has to bring him back to certain places that see whether he's grown or where these still needs, that kind of attending. Oh my that's awesome. And then another happy birthday from Deborah. Yeah, so let's, let's, they've into a little bit of reflections for a little bit before we add more fun to the, to the fire here. And you guys love the background, right?
Mark Kissler:Oh yeah. Yeah. That's great.
Matt Boettger:Some little, little crevasse antibodies. This is, I found this thing. I'm like, this is legit. So let's. Well, let's talk about reflections here. Let's talk about things, you know, let's just start the state of where we, all this house started. How gosh, man, it was end of February. I was like, I still, I know, I kinda like got. Well, it probably was like, end of November, like Thanksgiving, Christmas, like I started getting noticed that the coronavirus is kind of in China. My wife had tons of questions and it was just like, I couldn't answer them. And I knew what to do and I'd find all these news articles and they seem like they would contradict each other. And I felt a little lost. And then I tried to find podcasts at that time, there was like homeless, no podcast on coronavirus and December. Right. And even January there wasn't. And then this random thing happened as somebody who may have heard this story who listened to the podcast. But if you haven't, this is how it all began, where it was probably then in February, where. All of a sudden a Facebook post from Mark. I mean, from Stephen came on about, about this reflections on COVID and I totally forgot like Stephen's history and what he's doing. And there was so good. I'm like, Oh my gosh. And then I had this idea that, Oh man, we need to have a, I need to have a podcast on this. We should do a podcast because there's no out there. I can't get a good information and it's all over the place. I just don't know where to land on. And so then I. Contacted Stephen. He was willing to have a phone call. We talked about it. He's like, sure. I'll do it, whatever. And then I'm like, can your brother come on to it? So he's like, I don't, I asked him. Right. So I asked him it was funny because Mark was just like well, I'm usually not used to like. Like spontaneous things. I like to plan things out and I'm like, dude, we've got, is it, this is a pandemic you've got like one day to decide. So he said, he said, yes. And then we came on and it started. And literally it was like two days after Mark said, yes, we had our first publishing. And at that point in times, a hundred cases in the U S. Four or five deaths. And now we're in this whole other situation now where we're yeah, I mean some so in some sense, not all that great, but in a, in another sense, I mean, I was looking at my Evernote. And so if you guys don't know, we use Evernote. So this is like my godsend for clipping articles. And I wanted to do like a, like a test, like how many articles has met clipped since March 5th. And the Italia is 1049 articles I've clicked and gone through since March 5th. And I looked to the very first one, the very first one was Dr. Fowchee talking about. Or I think, I don't know if who was, but just how unlikely it would be that we'd ever get a, get a, get a vaccine, a vaccine in a year and a year and a half to two to three years would be the minimum. And here we are right on March 1st, we have like between seven and 10% of the U S is vaccinated already. Right. And this is like just remarkable progress, tons of system change. And I want to hear you guys, the reflections of like Mark, you can, if you want to chime in first or just like how this all began and how things have changed for you.
Mark Kissler:Yeah, you bet. I mean, it was really interesting to listen to those, excuse me, to those first few. Like, I just really remember the feeling that I had of like, just kind of getting a handle on what was going on. And being kind of in this funny place where we're asked to respond in a formal way you know, both at work and amongst our family is, you know, do all these things, but also just kind of getting a sense of like, where are we? And keeping asking that question over and over again, like what's w where are we what's going on? How do we get it sort of a sense? Cause there's just nothing. Quite analogous to this experience before. So it was pretty interesting. You know, hearing those questions again and, and, and then remembering sort of what, what the world was like, what we were thinking about at that time, you know, I was still, I was like teaching a class up at CU Boulder, and we were talking about, you know, illness experiences and what it was like to, you know, to engage illness in this kind of deep, deep way on an individual level. And this was this utterly different. Thing, you know, that was coming. And and it was, you know, it was a big gift for me to get to engage with both of you early on, because it really did kind of shape the way that I came to understand the pandemic, but also that I was able to sort of engage with it in my own, you know, in my own local relationships and stuff. I was thinking a lot about it. It it's incredible to see. Ms. Everett. You know, and I thinking a lot about sort of our one of the things about this podcast in about this year has been the different people who have been kind of our faithful listeners in correspondence and thinking deeply with us off air to help us, you know, to do whatever it is that we do. And so it's thinking. Welcome, you know, my wife and I have had just like a lot of deep conversations about these things and a lot of which ends up, you know, on air in one way or another. You know, Deb, our parents think about a lot of really close friends. You know, like Mitch and Collin, Stephen knows a ton. And you know, in many others, I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot who are just like very faithful listeners of correspondence through and just shout outs to kind of everybody who's. She's been a part of it over the last year. It's been, it's been fun and it's been in a lot of ways. I think it's just been this interesting extension of these relationships in a time where that sort of thing is more difficult. And so that's been one of the gifts for me has been having this space where we can have conversation communication, come to understand things in this sort of messy and grappling kind of way in a time where those spaces in which we can do that have been really. Rarefied. It's just very tough to have that kind of casual conversation. And so that's, that's one of the things, reasons. This has been a big gift for me, for sure.
Matt Boettger:Stephen, how about you?
Stephen Kissler:Yeah. It's, it's so interesting. Like coming back on a year because I mean, it's something it's even about like the weather outside and the length of the days and stuff. It's just like, Puts me sort of right back in that space and reminds me a lot more vividly of sort of what was going on a year ago, then I've really been able to call up since this has been a super interesting time for reflection. And so maybe I'll, I'll start by just sort of talking about like what, what was going on then and then how, how this podcasts move. Slipped into that and then really became a central part of, of what I was thinking about and what, what I was doing at the beginning of the pandemic. I mean as an epidemiologist it was, it was a really strange January and February because I sort of felt like I could see this thing coming. My colleagues could see this thing coming. And so when I went into work, there was a thrill awareness and a really sudden shift towards this like activity. I mean, it almost like I really tried to avoid like militant analogies here, but it really shifted from lab meetings to like war room briefings where you know, we were like, we would have these presentations where we would just give updates on the latest observations, the latest data that was coming in and trying to just. Get our hands on what was going on. We kept a week. And then I would go home and, and, and the world was just sort of, as, as usual. I remember beginning of March Allie and I with two friends of ours went to see a a play. We went to see Fiddler on the roof at the opera house here in Boston. And this was, this was the week before. Everything just shut down. And it was, it was just so wild because I knew that there was crew and a virus spreading in Boston everywhere else. But we were packed into this theater with like thousands of people. Right. And so I had this really strange experience of sort of being in this place that I was felt like there was this, this impending something happening. But but there was no sort of Acknowledgement of it outside of, outside of my, my workplace. Really. And so that's part of what was behind that, that Facebook posts that you mentioned, that where I was just trying to find like some way to both, to most process to myself, what was going on to think about more clearly, you know, what, what is it that I actually see? What is it that my colleagues are talking about and how can I try to bring some of that. Reality to to the people I know and love. And so you know, as, as things sort of escalated, it was yeah. Yeah, I'm really there, there was really the sense of like anxiety and just trying to grapple with, you know, what, what was going to happen. And and so this podcast really helped Speaking to that, right? You, you, you gave me that phone call and we talked through a whole bunch of different things. And and it was the first time that I had been called to not be sort of an academic consultant, but to just sort of speak to something as a friend to be like, you know what, what's, what's going on here? And like, what do we need to be prepared for? And like, what. What should I specifically be doing in my particular context? And it was a great conversation, man. Like, I, I really enjoyed getting to speak with you about that. And and so when you, when you proposed this idea it just made so much sense to me because it was, it was a way of you know, both, both communicating what I was. Seeing and you know, hopefully having a larger reach, but, but also learning a lot, you know, just like through conversation with you with Mark, to just get a broader sense. That's not just confined to these epidemiologists sitting in a room and trying to read the data, but like, w what's it, what's it like to have a family and young kids in this context? You know, what's it like to be a doctor? What's it like to be teaching students, you know? And and I think that that's so important, especially for, for us, is that the genealogists. To, to really have as much as we can, that breadth of experience too. So it's been, it's been really good and I, and I think that, you know it's, it's been a huge part of my own experience with the pandemic and I'm so grateful for it.
Matt Boettger:Yeah. Yeah. It's like w hearing you guys talk so many things come to mind, just like before I contacted Stephen and like the week before the last week of February, and this felt like, Hey, this is, this is going to become something big. I remember having sit down with my wife, Jan, who was already on her radar screen, probably in January. And just saying, I don't want to be an alarmist, but I think he needed to tell your mother that she needs to start staying home now. Right. And this is like, this is in a February. I mean, the cases were like, maybe there's one or two cases in Colorado, but I'm like, I hear you. You know, so having these conversations and when to pull the trigger, and this was hard for me, like when to pull the trigger to say something that could cause an over alarming sense of, you know, like, I don't want to create over alarm, but I, but if I feel like this is the right thing and this became really confusing for me. So then I'm like, man, I need Stephen. I need Mark. And it's been a huge gift. I mean, I don't even know where to begin. I'm not going to go on a diatribe on this, but like, it has like really changed the course of my entire life. Like, I really feel like. I, you know, I kind of, I was in the shower this morning and thinking about what we're going to talk about. And I feel like, I don't know if it's a right analogy, but I feel like my life has in some areas has changed, complete different tracks. Like there's no really end point. I don't feel like I get to a point where like, I've got to a place where like, okay, this part's checked off my list. I've kind of, this is where I'm at in my life. I just like, I'm constantly going, I'm on a different track. And I kind of moved to different tracks in this was like a large track of shifting. Element for me in many different areas. I mean, the idea of like, it's complicated, the idea of the nuances. There's so many individual conversations that you guys have had with me on the recording. That just really shifted things for me. Like w w w anything to the black lives matters and how it incorporates into epidemiology and science and talking about global warming and how indirectly that the common denominators also can impact COVID or I was getting these like, tripe. Bite sized pieces of information that were radically right. Or left that weren't seeing the complete picture. And it was you guys that really helped me like, Oh my gosh, it really is complicated. Right. It is nuanced. And so this has shifted so many things for me. I'm so, so grateful. I mean, this really has been a self-serving podcast for me. Like totally. If there was just two listeners, I'm be like, let's keep going. Let's keep, but there's not, there's more than that. So it's just been a huge shift.
Mark Kissler:I appreciate that it's been, hopefully there's been something that's been helpful. You know, I think we, I think something that's been helpful for everybody who's been engaged in one way or another. It's definitely been helpful for me, you know, and hardly, I think there's so much about this that I'm still in process about and, you know, Stephens and process about, and yeah. And so I think one of the things that's, it's tough to be in process in front of other people sometimes about some of these things. And so I hope that there's some good, you know, it's nice to hear about that. There was some good fruits to that. And you know, I think I'm in the same, same boat as you, I think in terms of just like continuing to uncover, you know, the complexity and the nuance and, and hopefully a little bit of the truth of what's, you know, what's going on and how, how we can bring ourselves to bear on it. In the best possible
Matt Boettger:way. Yeah. And Katie, your wife here says, I remember listening to the first episode while we were coming home from the children's museum of all places. That's like the germ Fest. And suddenly it dawned on me how much things were going to change and wonder how many services we had to lift while the museum, all of them. Oh my gosh. It's like when you have children, it is a game changer when it comes to like what you do when they're young. Because they're, they really are going to like lick in touch and it's just like, it was those first months, man. March was just, it was tough. I mean, hearing that first episode, it's like, that's why I mentioned those reflections of like surfaces with Steve. And I'm like, because that's what it was like, I don't know what's going on and we're locked in and we can't get food for like two weeks. Like all the gross shorts were like, couldn't get toilet paper. It was just madness.
Mark Kissler:Right. When we were talking about like, can we bring them to a playground? Like, what is it. That look like, you know, free isn't that safe. And then there's like a million kids at the playground. Cause they just closed school. I remember that, you know, those sorts of conversations too. Just trying to navigate how do we get through the days?
Matt Boettger:Absolutely. So throwing it out there, like what, well, you know, I had some of these questions I wanted to ask you guys, we talked, we had a quick reflection. What was one of your most unexpected joys for the podcast? Now you guys critical, already kind of fuse some of the sin, but to bring it tend to a point, is there a particular kind of joy that was unexpected that came from doing this podcast? So far Mark Stephen,
Mark Kissler:that's a great question. You, I think for me I think it's important. One of the big themes I think of this year, excuse me. Sorry. I w I early in the morning, I know it's early in the morning. I didn't do baby. I should've done my vocal exercises before. I don't do, I don't do vocal exercises, but I didn't
Matt Boettger:this morning either. That was the problem.
Mark Kissler:So. Eh, I think what I'm thinking about is the the extreme kind of mixed Snus of this year and holding together the bad and the good yeah, I think it's, there's a certain sense that the world that we saw in the hospital and the world that we saw. In the news. For me, there, there was a tremendous amount of tragedy this year. And you know, kind of family tragedy and trauma in this way that you know, one of the analogies that I think is the most apt that I've seen in a couple places is about, COVID sort of like a tornado, you know, where it's like devastates certain households and then passes others completely by. And, and so you're asking about. Joy. I think for me, there's this sense of being able to hold together, you know, that extreme, just the trauma of seeing, you know, Patients people and also colleagues deeply affected by this. And then also to have a place where to process that a little bit, to talk about the big picture and to stay grounded. And so I think that having, having a sense of community in the midst of the crisis, that was not something that was just adding on outrage and adding on. You know, crisis nor was it looking away from it? I think that that to me is kind of the meaning of that. If you know, joy more than. Enjoyment, you know, the joy was the sense of like, I can hold those difficult things and still bring them to you guys and talk through it and be serious about it. But also not but also recognize the goodness of things that are co-existing with that. This was very, very mixed. This year has been just so incredibly hard. I don't think we can overstate how hard it's been. Especially for a lot of people in our community who don't have the public voice that we have. And so just being able to kind of hold that together you know, with, with this time with you guys has been the biggest joy for me.
Matt Boettger:Stephen you,
Stephen Kissler:yeah. So one of the things that I've been thinking about that I that I regret the most from this past year was that I And this is just on a personal scale, but I I haven't kept much of a journal. Over the past year, I've not really done a lot of writing. I normally don't, but I, there was a moment early on in the pandemic when I thought like this, this might be something where it's just like jotting down some of my experiences, but with just the absolute craziness of everything all of the time that I spent writing was spent writing about the virus and not about sort of what I was thinking and feeling at the time, but But then you know, one of the joys then that, that came from this from, from this podcast and from seeing you guys so frequently is that and during a time when things have felt, so Random. And it's easy to give into the temptation of meaninglessness and lack of structure. This, these, these regular conversations have sort of helped put this thread sort of through the entire year. And I think without that thread, it would be very difficult to sort of see the passage of time and to see the interconnectedness between things. And there's, there's something there's something almost of, even of, of, of ritual and of You know, plugging in this microphone every time and grabbing the headphones off the wall, you know, there's like, there's something about this embodied sense of just like regular coming back to do this thing. That's the same, but different every time. Yeah. And that has allowed me to sort of deepen this experience of it. And and yeah, just this, it's just this this connection that, that sort of helps tie together this whole year, you know, I've It's so much has changed. And the world has changed. And I, you know, the, the, the relationships that I have have changed and they've changed in nature and they've changed and tightened a number and Yeah. And so it's, it's, I think it would be really hard to find a solid ground without something that had been just very sort of regular like that. And and so having, having the sort of communication, that sort of dialogue and just this process of just doing it again and again and again has, has really been this, this deep sort of joy that that has helped sort of dispel some of the What, what, what might feel like a lack of meaning or a lack of you know, a lack of, I don't know what else, but some, some kind of lack that this year has really been characterized by.
Matt Boettger:Yeah. When you were mentioning about the idea of change. I think the greatest joy for me, I mean, I have a lot of joy. Like I said, this podcast is really about for me. I did it selfishly and it grew to be something bigger. It helped thousands of people. We'll hear from some of them soon from recordings and that kind of stuff, but it's been enormously helpful. I think the biggest thing, Stephen, you mentioned change. Like I have changed so much things have changed so much. My friendships have changed so much. I'm just glad I had you guys regularly to change along with me did, there was something there that kind of helped me process the change and no into to deepen it, to allow it to become stronger than self. Now, granted, there are still things that are still working on and then it's my own change. And, but that's been huge. Another big joy for me is just the community here beyond just ourselves, but like, The thousands of people have been listened to us in the comments like this really is like, it's hard not to get teary-eyed guys because like, like hearing their voices, reading their comments or emails and just realizing, like, I don't know. I don't even know how to explain it. The fact that we can be so far apart. But actually addressing the same thing with the same humanity and the same concerns and the same heart in the same struggles in the same confusion. It just, the sense of solidarity has been way bigger for me. And that's been like, this is like a huge gift. Like I just like, wow, like I've heard about like podcasting and building communities and how cool it can be, but it was just from the outside on the inside. My big, it just, it really is just been probably one of the greatest joys. For sure. Let's, let's move on to maybe an unexpected hardship to talk about that's Stephen, I'll start with you. What's a, what's an unexpected, maybe a hardship that that's come about from the podcast.
Stephen Kissler:Yeah, I think the maybe, maybe Mark articulated it first, but I was, I was sure thinking it too, you know that like, I, you don't go off and be a mathematician because you like talking to people, you know, it's like which you know, and I have, of course, like, that's, that's a little bit fuzzy, but like, I, I do love like community. I've very close friends with people, you know, I there's, there's nothing, I love more than like a deep and far ranging conversation was it was people I enjoy, but but this this. There's there was sort of a, especially at the beginning, almost, almost a relentlessness to it where I was immersed in the pandemic in my work, in my private thoughts. And then and then when we started recording, we were doing this three times a week. So there was, we were being called to, you know, like I would get on. Every basically every other day, and then try to distill that, those things that I'd been thinking and to communicate them in a way that was, you know, intelligible and ideally calm, but also appropriately Serious. And and, and there was just this real this real difficulty too. I mean, I was, I remember there, there are so many reasons why I was exhausted during the first couple of months of this pandemic, but but this was, this was one of them, you know, it's it was, it was really, really difficult to just come and do that day after day. And and especially because, you know, It's so funny because I think that I, I like to think that my bearing on the podcast has been relatively even, but what you don't see is what happens outside of that. And the times when I've just been just an absolute wreck that usually Allie has had to try to sort of piece together, you know, as I'm just like trying to him pacing the room. Speaking in half sentences because I don't understand what's going on. And I don't know why things are as crazy as they are. And so there was, there was something really difficult about sort of having to engage that, you know, time after time after time. But nevertheless, too. Sort of dive into my own uncertainty, my own deep, deep fear, and just lack of understanding and yet to try to come up with something that was that was true and articulate. And and so there's it was, it was an immense just sort of mental and emotional struggle especially towards the beginning, but you know, of course that's, that's born a lot of fruit, I think, especially, I mean, just, just for me I've, I've gotten a lot more. Comfortable with it. And and it is really helping and despite all of the difficulty, it, I think that, you know, even, even compared to some colleagues, it really helps me to clarify my thoughts and to establish sort of what is it that I think about this rather than just sort of following along with whatever is going on, whatever communications are happening within my community to really sort of solidify my own voice through dialogue with, with was you both? So incredibly difficult, but incredibly good.
Matt Boettger:Yeah, I could imagine, man. I can imagine Mark by you.
Mark Kissler:Yeah, I think I want to echo that the sense of like continually being pushed into those uncomfortable places, right. To those questions or those places where it feels like even societaly, we're kind of pulling apart and we're seeing the framing it and and to try and just like go back into that place every, you know, as often as we meet I think is it's tough, you know, but it's also. Important. I think it's pulled, you know, a good, good thing out of me to try and do that. And, you know, hopefully I've developed a little bit more endurance for that kind of engagement. I like the analogy that came up or not, not quite an analogy, but just the sense of like one of the things that we can do, I think is create a space in which we can have an authentic conversation. And then we can just kind of say, say what we know and say what we believe to be true, kind of in that. In that space and just kind of keep saying that, you know, and not get too embroiled in the, you know, all the other side, things that are going on. I think there's a fresh, you know, there can be a frustration in the sense that sometimes that doesn't feel like it's enough, you know, that it doesn't feel like it's reaching all the places that it needs to reach. Or the things that feel settled in my own heart, or like very much not settled out in the world. And there's, you know, controversy and, you know, back and forth about these things that are deeply affecting. Other people's lives, you know, that's hard to watch. It's hard. It's hard for me to see. And this podcast pulled me back into that place, you know, again and again and again, and I think that's also one of the gifts of it too.
Matt Boettger:Yeah, absolutely. I think similarly for, for me, a couple of things is number one, just the time it was more time than I thought, you know, I was like, I got so excited about it. I'm like, let's just do this, but you know, it takes time. It takes time to, to actually produce it and. I have a tendency to like, lie, like quality. So like trying to make the audio better and do all the backs because I mean, I'm not the expert here I'm bringing on and I'm bringing the different levels so I can use some of my extra time to make it better and to bring it to more people. So that was a lot of my time. I wouldn't using also think the biggest thing, honestly, that really started to drag for me. Is checking the news multiple times a day for the sake of the podcast. Like I wanted to have a break, like I just want, like, I just need a week where I'm not looking at COVID news. Like I can't, I have to keep looking at it. I have to keep snip snipping the articles. So that Monday morning, it really early in the morning, I can go through all these articles, find the best ones and we can talk about it because my expertise is limited. So it's based off the news. And so I can provide those questions. Like, what do you mean by this? What's going on with this? So that's, I think if that, that emotionally has been draining. For me. And that's been, that's been the biggest hardship, I think for me as well as well. We'll do a quick round of this. We have a lot of things we want to do. I wanted to see if there's one quick thing you guys have learned from this podcast. You may be already mentioned the one thing practically or whatever you've learned from this podcast. Number one, I have to say for you guys, what you've learned is you've both grown. You guys are all just, I think, great speakers to begin with, but you've grown so much to be able to like synthesize information and bring it in such a level where people can digest it so quickly. I mean, that's for me watching you guys, you guys already started strong, but the fact that you could fine tune that and make it even better. That's been a huge gift for me. What about you Stephen, about you what's been the think you've learned from this podcast so far. Yeah.
Stephen Kissler:It's as it's kind of just our tagline about the, that everything is complicated. Right. But I think that, you know, Of course, like I understood that on some level intellectually. Right. But I think that what this entire pandemic has brought home, but especially these conversations is just like how concretely precisely, immediately things are complicated. And, and that really just like hit home in a way that it hasn't before. Like what it means that To have certain policy decisions affects people who are raising kids and just trying to get them to school. And just like that interconnectedness of everything and how it was sort of one decision at one end of the spectrum can just like filter all the way towards all sorts of different parts of society that you never would have imagined in this Rick really way that affects people's lives on a deep, deep level. So I think it's been that to seeing that repeat itself over and over again, the
Matt Boettger:Mark.
Mark Kissler:Yeah, I think it's the, excuse me again, increasing tolerance for being fit for the imperfections and the not quite having things set before I speak into them that, you know, I think there's a, there's something good about having all that, you know, set, but there's also something very real. And I think, you know, hopefully a little bit less prideful about just like. Here's what we got. And like, there's some things I know. And here's some things I don't know. And there's a lot of complexity here that I haven't settled myself and having an increased tolerance for for that I think has been really good for me. So
Matt Boettger:that's great. Similar, same thing. It's the whole thing. It's this complicated I'm here in class. This is totally like when I was going through my MBA and biblical studies or it was before that one of my mentors told me you've got to earn the right. To, to talk about predestination free will, if you don't want to talking about, don't worry about it, but like it's such a complicated reality. Like they're basically said that like, until you have gray hairs, don't even try to talk about it right now. If you have, if you have gray hair, when you're 20, that doesn't work. So, but the concept is when you get a lot older, right? So the idea of throwing around it's complicated, I think. Same thing. You have to earn the right to call it. Copy. Otherwise people think, Oh, you're just throwing that out. It's it's just like a, it's kind of a red herring or whatever. But I think this podcast has allowed me to earn the right to say things as comics. I've actually seen the nuance that you guys, you guys have helped me see it, like in, in it's nuance, I'm like how much, this really is complicated. And it doesn't mean. It's overwhelming. That's the biggest thing I want to like that was the biggest take home. I can say it's complicated and not be overwhelmed. That was a huge fruit for me. So things like hospitalizations or not are not really being overrun. Mass don't work. You are a hypocrite. If you allow racial injustice, marches and prevent other, other public gatherings, the left is using COVID to uphold a global warming agenda. The flu is no different from COVID right. All these things. I'm like it's complicated. It's complicated. And this has helped me like, no, this is why it's complicated. So that's the biggest thing that I've learned. Okay. Let's get into the next phase. We had a lot to think. Now, one of our awesome and wonderful listeners presented us a top 10 reasons why I raised glass for one year Penn dental podcast. All right.
Mark Kissler:The production here, Matt. It's just like, I'm so impressed. I like hardly get my email
Matt Boettger:to work some days. Okay. You ready guys for this top 10 reasons. All right. Oops. Wrong thing. So that we'll, let's get back to that. You just would just, when you told me that everything was so great, you just totally let me move that back over here. Right there. I think we're good. Top 10 reasons. Hopefully should work this time. Right. Number 10, no politics, only science and an understandable casual conversation. Totally legit. I think that's absolutely correct. That's one of the biggest reasons why people subscribe to us, number nine, verbalizing the need to grieve the lifestyle that has put on hold and then being inspired to make decisions to make future me proud. That's awesome. That's pretty phenomenal. I mean, the fact that we could do that to our listeners is a huge gift to be able to hold that in, in intention. Next one, number eight. Finding wellbeing and slowing life down and truly appreciate being at home. Right. We talked about that. This is the whole part of trying to live the most real life in the, in the difficult situations. Number seven sharing expertise and real time at the starting point of a hundred cases in the U S we talked about. To 20.5 million cases, 7% of us publishing fully vaccinated, right? We've gone through a lot journey. I'm just so thankful for Stephen and Mark to be along this journey. Number six, pointing out to the scientific method consists of evolving and changing knowledge. That's the point. And it doesn't make the reporting untrustworthy. There was, I think a huge learning point for me as well. Just seeing that like people expose this and say, see, they're hypocrites, but this is the whole point of science. It's the progress of understanding and knowledge. Number five, the ability for listeners to answer their friends questions by beginning with their phrase. My favorite epidemiologist says that is legit. That's all the credit. I also use that
Mark Kissler:phrase
Matt Boettger:who happens to be my brother. So in the Matt Boettger voice, it could be less here. It's to live the most real life possible in the face of today's crisis. There we go. That's right. Excellent. Number three, organizing a go fund. Me to deliver a fiber optic internet to Dr. Mark, which we still need to do. Number two, finding the gift in the difficult situation. That's a tough one. And it's a beautiful thing. If you can get that and finding number one, the number one reasons why raise glass the pandemic. This first is. That was the most dramatic one. The duly mustaches on the live stream. This is why you got to be. You got gotta, you gotta, if you, if you went to like subscribe and help us get$5 a month, you can see duly mustaches on live stream. That was pretty phenomenal. Wasn't it? Pretty awesome. That's great.
Mark Kissler:Okay. I think that that really points out. I think how much of this is is such a co-construction too with our listeners. Like I really appreciate it. That articulation and sort of the way, you know, some of those, those points are things I don't know if we ever said, you know, explicitly that those are things that our listeners are also bringing to us. And that's super awesome to get that kind of feedback in this medium. So
Matt Boettger:it's been great. Thanks for that. You're absolutely welcome. There's more to it. So let's get to a window. We don't have too much time, but till eight 30 at the latest, but I want to get a few thank you's from people around the world. You guys remember Bruce, right Bruce from Australia. Of course, he gave us a little video to let us know his appreciation on Monday. Of course, from Australia. I just wanted to say thanks very much for the podcast. It's been great. And we call out to Mark and Steve who had the expertise and Really give some really good balance to the whole conversation. So it's been great listening. Kept me saying and it says, you've always said it's very complicated. And the one thing I've really picked up from the whole thing is the word nuance. So that's kept me going as well. So keep it up guys. It's good to see you're on top of things and things are looking at okay. Good luck. All right. That's great. Oh, that's super cool. That's Bruce from Australia, giving a little credit to you guys and appreciate the podcast. You guys know you've been remember Tina, right? Tina from Cyprus, right? So she gave a little audio thing to look to. Thank you guys for the pandemic right here. It's Tina from Cypress. I can't believe it's been a year since you started this podcast. This is crazy. I'm not quite sure how year has gone by, but he anniversary. And thank you to all three of you for your dedication to the best pandemic podcast. There is out there. I know you all have lives and families and jobs, so thank you. Not only for your time, but for your commitment as well. In general, depen DEMEC has created a special kind of exhaustion. There isn't one way in which you've helped me then many ways back in March, 2020, when all this really started to affect our lives, it felt so sudden, like it came out of nowhere and it was a seriously overwhelming time. I remember frantically tried to search for a reliable source to listen to something that was informative, impartial nonpolitical, but also human. Week after week, you seem to answer all my questions. So clearly uncommonly never pretending to know everything. And a simple two word explanation. Like it's complicated. Help me put it all into perspective. What I love the most is that even today, a year ago on your discussions are still so interesting and up-to-date, and I really do value your opinions. I'm learning all the time. Matt, Stephen and Mark. You're the dream team. Thanks for being you and for keeping me sane during these crazy times. Take care. Thanks guys. And keep safe. All right. That's Tina from Cyprus. So just number of people just want to give a thing. It's just been awesome. And there's more, let's go for what we're to finalize this, these few more from coast to coast. Now you guys remember my sister Angie long. She was on here in early August. She would have dropped in just a little audio and just thank you guys for all you guys know as well. Matt, Mark and Stephen, this is Angie in San Diego. I met sister and I also have the privilege of being on with you guys last year, talking about some mental health issues and congratulations on getting to the one-year Mark. Your podcast has been. Incredibly valued to me. And my husband, we love it. I feel smarter. I feel like I understand things better. You guys are an antidote to the fear that can be out there when I'm consuming the news. And so I appreciate all the time you put in, I appreciate your opinions and expertise. And how do you guys always add this touch of humanity and recognizing the common humanity we have and just how to be together and all of this. So thank you. Thanks so much. Keep up the good work. We listed the every week. And that through my scissor, who is fully vaccinated. That's Vanessa. Hey, we got a few more here, John, from caliber, go from California to coast, to coast. John, for you from California as well. Want to say hello, John? Houton from California. Just wanted to wish you guys a happy one year anniversary for the pandemic podcast. I've been listening since about September and it's been great to be. Learning about the pandemic and what we should be doing and all that, and just really appreciate everybody's contributions. So start with Matt. It's been great to get, to get to know Matt started talking with him on the email when I was first handed my first questions. And he's got to say that the pandemic podcasts is the first podcast to not only. Respond to one of my questions, but to all of them, I've sent questions out to other podcasts of virologists, epidemiologists doctors, and things like that. And I haven't heard back from any of them, but I always hear back from Matt. And so I really appreciate Matt and it's been fun. Getting, getting to know him and finding about all the cool things he does. He's got a business on the side, but he does consulting and coaching, and that's been a lot of fun to hear about. And so for Stephen, it's great to hear from a trained epidemiologist and providing depth and explaining. You know, the nuance behind why things are happening. Not that we know everything about why it's happening, but it's just what we've known so far about the diseases that have occurred to date. I always get some really rich nuggets every time I listened to the podcast and things I didn't think about. And maybe it'll be a new issue where I get to find out about it. And maybe it might be an old issue where I get to hear an explanation. I think I know, but then I get a whole new level of meaning out of that. So it's great to hear and to receive your insight. And then finally for Mark, it's great to get the clinical. Perspective of what he's seeing in his practice. You know, he's seeing COVID patients and to find out what's happening on the ground. And so that can be so invaluable. So really appreciate your podcast. Keep up the good work guys. Thanks. All right, John from California, when somebody, you know, here, I think Britt from Denver, I think she might know her. Hi pandemic podcast team. I am Britain, Denver, and wanted to send my appreciation for this podcast. What I love most is the authenticity I've been listening to the podcast since before quarantine started almost a year ago. And what's crazy is that was before the pandemic became political. And I love that with this crew. There's no angle, just the science, the public health perspective and what to think twice about as a consumer of news. And it helps that I know the counselors, so I trust the source quite well. And I don't know you, Matt, but I love that you bring some lightness and entertainment to the podcast as well as great questions. And you guys make a great team and nine months ago, I honestly hope the podcast would become irrelevant and wondered what you all would do, but has the pandemic carried on? I didn't have to find a new favorite part cast. So I guess that's silver lining y'all have continued to be my main source of trusted information, which I so appreciate. So I continue to recommend this podcast to family and friends. You guys are the best, and I can't wait to hear the anniversary episode. Ooh. And another one here, you have bread sauce. I can't wait to meet Britt someday. Another one here in North Carolina, this one got cut off. So, but I had to play it. I think she was a drummer a minute 30, but the last part of it was really good. And I'm going to play it even though it cuts off. And this is from cat, from North Carolina.
Mark Kissler:Hi,
Matt Boettger:this is Kat in
Kirstin:Asheville, North Carolina, and
Matt Boettger:I'm calling to let you know what I appreciate about Stephen and
Kirstin:Mark.
Matt Boettger:And I also appreciate it, man. I think what I appreciate
Kirstin:the most is the complete lack
Matt Boettger:of politics.
Kirstin:It is so refreshing. I
Matt Boettger:also. Really like
Kirstin:the little. Appropriate
Matt Boettger:glimpses into their lives once in a while. I think that
Kirstin:makes it real.
Matt Boettger:They don't let it dominate, but it's kinda nice to, to know that they're real people and they're experiencing this too. My favorite marked moment was the first
Kirstin:time he recorded. From his
Matt Boettger:car before a shift in the hospital. And I have to say, I just bawled my eyes out after that. I just couldn't believe that he was,
Mark Kissler:Headed
Matt Boettger:for a whole day in the hospital and just sounded so tired. And yet he took the time to
Kirstin:make
Matt Boettger:that's it. So I had to play because I like that was such a moving last part. So that's really good. Yeah, I think it's it's. I mean, so thank you to Bruce, Tina, my sister, John Brit cat for giving these contributions, because I think this is just a nice small. Symbol of what you guys have contributed to the overall, just emotional fatigue and the overwhelm and putting things and perspective and giving a real voice. That's concrete. That's not slanted. That's trying so hard. And like you said, Mark and Steve, and it is so hard for you guys to sit here and come back week after week and offer an opinion that you don't even really know you have the answer to, but yet you stay in that middle ground. You don't fabricate it. You just sit there and you let the audience hang because you yourself don't know. And he may think that that, that you're actually letting the audience down, letting me down. But in fact, you're doing the exact opposite. You're actually giving people motivation and perspective and hope and realizing it's okay. So I know for you. It's probably just daunting. It is, it is exhausting, but for us, we can't be more grateful for you guys coming back week after week. So we really, really, we are. You're absolutely welcome. We're not done. That's done with the audio. It's a couple more things I know. Hang in there, guys. We're going to here. This is from dad. Oh, thanks. I have really loved hearing your podcast every week, partly because you all have good expert info without a political agenda. But on a personal note a year ago, I was seeing the Kissler is every week enjoy enjoying Mark's cooking, being. I did not cook so well being entertained by the cassettes, which this is new information nicknamed for the little Kissler trading book ideas with bark, occasionally watching trashy TV shows got a follow up on that one. And with Mark and KA Katie trading books to read and letting Mark, and can he beat me at Codenames and sushi go, never heard this stuff. Then COVID hit and suddenly we were on lockdown. So boring puppet zooms with cassettes, my own cooking day after day, taking my own books and watching dull TV shows and playing gin, Rummy, and Stu EV with Steve every night and not talking to Mark every week. So I have looked forward to hearing Mark and Stephen every week. And when Mark is working, I've enjoyed hearing Stephen so fun to get to know both of them as professionals and not just the young guys attached. Thank you for all the,
Mark Kissler:that that could be my credential. I, that I would take the, the young guy attached to Katie. That's that's good for just like that's, that's my credential. I like that.
Matt Boettger:Yeah, it'll be get back to here. And then I'll do it this way. Here we go. Here's from somebody we don't know of. Thank you, Steve and Mark and Matt for all of your hard work and dedication to the pandemic podcast. I found an incredible source of wisdom and hope throughout this strange and uncertain time. Thank you, Stephen and Mark for taking the time out of your crazy schedules week after week for the podcast. I know that both of both have, have so incredibly much on your plate, but it means so much to me and so many others to have you explain it, epidemiology and medicine to us in real time. As these events are unfolding. Thank you, Matt. For everything you have done to make this podcast possible, you do so much work behind the scenes and gathering the materials necessary for making the podcast to the research you do in the news each week to your thoughtful questions that we all are thinking, and don't know quite how to ask the podcast simply wouldn't exist without your dedication care. It has given me my family, a lot of peace for that. I cannot thank you enough. Thank you all for your continued service to the community. Happy one university, Allie from Massachusetts. I wonder who she is. That would be no clue. Oh my gosh. Great. Thanks. You're absolutely welcome, Allie. Thank you so much for giving that kind of your shit. And she sent me a kind email and I can not wait to meet her in person as well, and we all can come out together, have drinks and have some good food. And before we move into the last couple of segments I couldn't believe. You guys, let me just move this back over here. Oops. Wrong one. I can't believe that we have such young listeners check this young listener out. We just, I just got out from, yeah, my seven I'm seven years old. I
Kirstin:want to tell you
Matt Boettger:how much I love your podcast. I love it because.
Kirstin:It teaches us.
Matt Boettger:She said, I love you. That's so adorable. So your daughters are incredibly cute. And last but not least, here we go from Katie herself. Oops, sorry. Wrong one. Wrong one. Hi, Mark
Stephen Kissler:and
Matt Boettger:Stephen and Matt. We love listening to the podcast. It's one of our most special times of the week. We learned so much about COVID and about each of you and it's a gift to us. So thank you for doing it. All right, those are all the thank you's from around the world. I hope you feel appreciated. Thank you so much for the gift.
Mark Kissler:Just pause and, and give you a map. A huge thanks, because this has been a tremendous amount of work for you and you do all the production. You bring the questions, you bring the energy and, and the structure to this. And we absolutely that's not, would not have happened without you close. And so I think it's just so you, you are so crucial and I'm super grateful because of all the things that this has meant to me for the year, you know like you said, you know, even, even without our listeners, this, this, this has been great for me, but what a gift to hear these folks. So thank you for, you know, all, this is been a ton of work for you and we're so grateful.
Matt Boettger:You're absolutely welcome. It's my pleasure. I mean, it's a gift. I, I, it's a labor of love, so I appreciate it. And I, didn't just thankful we can go to so many listeners as well. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Well, now let's get to the last segment here. We're running out of time, about seven minutes left. We have a lot to talk about. So Mark might have to pale out for a little bit, but just quickly now what before we get into this and we want to present to all of our listeners, we don't know what's what's next. We know that COVID depen Dem it will. Let's say COVID won't end, but the pandemic will end. It will go to a new normal this podcast will cease to exist. It'll it'll be no longer relevant. It's we want to. Pull our listeners to figure out whether we should continue this or whether she wrap it up and just call it good when we're done next month or two, whenever things begin to settle in. But we don't know what to do next, Mark and Steve and I have been talking about opportunities. What we could do. We've heard from a handful of listeners that they would like us to continue it and do some form of continue the podcast. And we have some ideas, but we don't know exactly how to do it. So we appreciate, really appreciate some feedback. So if you guys go to living the real.com/pandemic, Two question form. Very simple living the real.com/pandemic. We'll put in the show notes. It just asking that if we were to continue doing this, when we close up shop in the pandemic, would you want us to continue in a podcast on something? What would it look like for you? What, what brings value when all three of us together to help us formulate an idea of if this is worthy of continuing, because I think we're open to it, right guys. We're we're open. We definitely are. So we, I just want to throw that out there to close that up. Just to make sure, please, please, please give three or four minutes. If you hang in, live in the real, the comm slash pandemic, just to give an idea of what we could do to continue this. If you guys would like us to continue this podcast. Okay. Let's if we can just do a couple of news to land the plane and a couple of new things before we close out, just a couple of things I saw the CDC was warning about uptick of coronavirus update. Does that still relevant or I just saw it went back down. Or is that still an alarming or are we still kind of in a motive? Caution Stephen. Yeah.
Stephen Kissler:It's, it's worth, you know, worth us paying attention to I think that last couple of weeks I've been saying that I was expecting sort of a long tail and that we were just going to sort of like slowly cruise down towards sort of summer level. COVID but one of the things that actually caught me by surprise was how quickly cases started to come down. And so, but the corollary to that is that I think because they came down so quickly, we, we might still be in for another bumps that that has to do with the spread of the variants with. Different places where you're opening. So I think, you know, something to something, to something to watch, something that I've been watching. My colleagues have been watching but not, not a cause for a huge alarm yet, you know? I don't, I don't expect another search. Like we saw this winter. But we maybe, you know, This is the song that never ends. Right. It's just, it goes on and on. So so here we go. You know, it's like there, there may still be another surge before before this has sort of had its last word, so hang in there, but
Matt Boettger:okay. And then on the vaccine level you know, Johnson, Johnson, a few moments when speaking to this, both of you guys. So just cause I hear this, I mean, people were literally thinking they need to get into Madrona and Pfizer now, otherwise they're going to maybe wait until there's more Pfizer and Madrona because they don't want to have a lesson. Effective vaccine and Johnson Johnson, any way to speak into this kind of like this, this, this fear of, of being, getting the B team vaccination.
Stephen Kissler:Yeah, I mean, from my perspective these are all like great vaccines, especially in so far as they protect you against severe illness and death. I mean, they are, they are very good. And so you know, the. Maybe I can just speak from a personal perspective, which is the whatever, whenever my name gets called and whatever vaccine is available at that time, I'm going to get it because from my perspective, any vaccine is better than none by a very long shot. And that's really our ticket, you know, both out of this, this. Stage of the pandemic and also towards reducing the spread so that we can prevent new variants from emerging as well. So it's, it's a great vaccine. And even though the, you know, sort of the efficacy on the label isn't necessarily as high as the Pfizer and Madrona ones. It's good at doing the things that we need it
Matt Boettger:to do. Great. And I'll put in the show notes briefly. I saw just recently that, that, that the, the Jonathan, Jonathan Prince, 90% from hospitalization, and apparently that's even better than Pfizer and Madonna for that particular nuance. So just to put these perspectives, it's not just apples to apples, there's nuances, Mark, anything to say on the, on the, on what you're seeing with the vaccination and your perspective.
Mark Kissler:No, just that I agree. I mean, I think that's, that's a great summation that this is where we're dealing on both the levels of the individual risk and our collective communal risks and responsibilities. And so I just want to echo what students
Matt Boettger:say. Great. Awesome. Okay. We're gonna be signing off once again. All right, we're going to sign off a little intense, last few things is to say, Hey, if you can support us living say at patrion.com/pandemic podcast was a little$5 can go a long way or one-time payments, Venmo, PayPal, all in the show notes, the way get ahold of Stephen Kissler, S T E P H E N KIS S L E R on Twitter. If you want to contact us just to say how things are going, how had this, this podcast up to you? Matt live in the real Doug. Com and all this stuff will be in the show notes. I want to thank you all so much for joining those of you who live there was about 10 of us at one point in time. Really appreciate hanging in there. We thank you so much, much for listening and being part of a community. It helps me, it supports me through this long time and I hope we've been helping. We've been helpful to help you along the way. Take care, have a wonderful week. We'll be back next Monday with a real episode about all the COVID stuff happening. Take care and bye-bye.