Financial Planning for Business Owners with Tyson Ray

In this episode, Tyson Ray and I discuss exit planning for business owners, marrying business owners’ sale with their other financial planning. Tyson is a founding partner of FORM and a financial advisor with over 25 years of experience guiding clients through life's events. 

Tyson is the author of Total Relationship, a book to help financial advisors fully understand their clients’ needs. Tyson shares client experiences, and describes the elements of the Total Relationship, being their Life Plan, Wealth Plan, and Care Plan. Tyson emphasizes the need for early planning, succession grooming, and acquiring life insurance at a young age.

Tyson received his Certification in Business Exit Planning to better support entrepreneurs and business owners in selling their business. He strives to help other business owners assess their future and business so they can monetize their life's work to enjoy a retirement they have worked hard to build.

Tyson has obtained his CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ Certification and his Certified Investment Management Analyst® Certification to apply knowledge with expertise to help make life better for his clients. He is passionate about having a complete with his clients and wants to help positively impact the financial industry.

Securities through Raymond James Financial Services, Inc. Member FINRA / SIPC. Investment advisory services are offered through Raymond James Financial Services Advisors Inc.  FORM Wealth Advisors is not a registered broker/dealer and is independent of Raymond James Financial Services. Raymond James and its advisors do not provide tax advice. Form Wealth Advisors is located at 431 Geneva National Ave S, Lake Geneva, WI 53147; 262-686-3005. 

Selling a business is the American dream, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, the reward for years of hard work. Successful entrepreneurs make countless sacrifices in hopes that they would someday reap the benefits of their labor and live a new life of vacations, recreation, and prosperity.

You only exit your business once, so you should feel confident passing this milestone. A successful business exit reflects the preparation done beforehand. Failing to plan is planning to fail.

The owner of a privately held company has several alternatives on how to exit their business. In the absence of an exit strategy, events will inexorably dictate the final exit plan. A costly involuntary exit may be caused by death, disability, divorce, disagreement, or distress.

Selling Your Business with David King will help you take control of the sale process and make it positive one.

Transcript

 | David King: | Good morning and welcome back to Selling Your Business with David King. I'm David King, I'm the author of Selling Your Business. Begin with the End in Mind. It's available on Amazon today. I'm pleased to welcome Tyson Ray from Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. Tyson, welcome.  
 | Tyson Ray: | Thank you for having me.  
 | David King: | David Tyson is the founder and c e O of Form Wealth Advisors, and again, he's an exit planner. He helps business owners plan for their sale and for their retirement life after they're all consuming business. So there's plenty for us to cover today in terms of his background, the wealth advisor work that he does, and coupling that with business owners and their unique situations. So Tyson, you are also the author of Total Relationship. It's about advisors being wholly engaged in all aspects of their clients' lives. Tell us about the book.  
 | Tyson Ray: | Yeah, the book is my attempt. It's my second book. It's my attempt to try and help advisors kind of break out of the mold that I think a lot of firms train them up into pedal product or to sell last week's winning lotto numbers for a fee instead of realizing that they can have a greater impact in both the relationship they have with their clients and also the difference they can make in their clients' lives if they actually focus a little bit more on what they can control, which is what the client's needs and wishes are. And a little less on focusing on the markets and rates of return and compared to what and all the performance reports and things that are out there that people get caught up in the sales process because I'm just a firm believer that we're meant to come alongside people and kind of help 'em with what they have and then more importantly help them figure out what this tool of money is meant to be for them. And I think that's still lost in this world of advisors in selling products and trying to these firms creating all these performance reports to somehow see that's the differentiation or that's the value add when the value add is can they buy the house and fund the education and live in retirement without the worry of markets or rates of return and those types of things.  
 | David King: | So there's the elements of the total relationship, the way you break it down, the life, wealth and the care.  
 | Tyson Ray: | Yep. What would you like to know about that?  
 | David King: | Tell me how did you come up with those three divisions and what is each one?  
 | Tyson Ray: | Sure. I think it's realizing that, so the total relationship with regards to the life plan is about trying to understand the relationship the client has with what their future looks like, what retirement looks like, what the life plan would include, what's their goals, what about your house, what about the car, what about, a lot of people spend money on these big ticket items and advisors are talking about their performance in the past 12 months relative to something else not realizing. And probably 25 years ago in my career, I was sitting there enjoying one Monday morning and got a phone call from a panicked client that needed $80,000. So they bought the car and it dawned on me that they knew for probably two or three years they're going to buy the car. It's never asked. And trying to understand the relationship that clients have with their future and when that future is becoming the present is part of what this total relationship life planning is.  
 | Tyson Ray: | Financial planning projects things out for the rest of your life and that's a good tool to try and understand what kind of return you're trying to seek for retirement. But when the rubber meets the road is when the client needs to do that home improvement or needs to replace the car or fund that wedding or fund these things, that life kind of shows up and there's a dollar amount attached to that and we're trying to help the advisors realize if you can help the client see those things coming and then you can try and get in front of when that need is there, you'll be less susceptible to the randomness of the return of the market when they call you out of the blue for something they actually knew was coming. And so that's kind of the life planning component. The wealth side of that is similar.  
 | Tyson Ray: | It's their total relationship with what's the bank account balance and how much money is in the retirement and the 4 0 1 k and the income. And so it's people have relationships and emotions attached to the facts that are their goals, but then also their total relationship to the wealth that they have, the relationship to, the wealth that they have within the family wealth or the business that they have, those types of things. And understanding how those two components come together. The care side of it is our job as the advisors to come along and try and care for how these things come together to provide for the client when the future that they want to have shows up in the present, the money has already been pre-funded, the worries can be lessened because they know it's coming, we know it's coming and we've kind of almost given them permission, it's okay to do it, you're not going to regret this decision in the future when we show up at the car lot or when we close on the house or those types of things. And it's just a more holistic way of going about the practice. And a lot of people talk about this stuff, but at the end of the day in the annual review, they're still back to talking about what their large cap portfolio is doing to their mid-cap portfolio. The clients aren't looking for that as much as they're looking for this total relationship of how to live their lives.  
 | David King: | It is so true that you bring that up because when I meet with my financial advisor every quarter, it's like there's two meetings going on. There's one where he's reporting to me on the market performance of all the investments and the mix that we have, and then there's two where I'm giving back some feedback like, look, I'm potentially going to acquire a property here or there changing my vehicle plant for the kids college, et cetera. It really is, it's hard to dovetail the two together  
 | Tyson Ray: | And that was the purpose behind the meeting or behind writing the book was I think there's a way to make your meeting more of the focus and let the advisor realize that more that is a opportunity to have more control over what you can control, the conversations, the questions, and what's your, I can't time the market, but we can time when you need things into the future and let's just figure out what those are. And then the portfolio somewhat takes care of itself after that.  
 | David King: | Right. I tell my financial advisor that all the time. I'm like, look, if I didn't trust you to pick the right market, I mean investments I wouldn't have my money with yet. So you can tell me how things are doing, but what the advice I really need is outside the four corners of what you're prepared to talk about right now. This reports you've got to share with me. I kind of already know how the market's doing. I can see that and it's not been doing well the past couple of years at least it's been a little flat. I would put it mildly there.  
 | Tyson Ray: | And I think that why I wrote the book is that there's so much training that these firms give these advisors to show these nice reports or to talk about the market or to talk about how things compare to other things looking backwards in the past. And they're not as equipped to have the conversation that totally encompasses what your needs and wants and future is and then how that plays out in the next six months, 12 months next year. And that's why we wrote the book to try and help equip that advisor to start having maybe a different conversation and build a deeper trust and a deeper relationship with the client.  
 | David King: | So let's apply this holistic view to business owners and what, let's go back a little bit into your background. When did you start working with business owners? When did you decide you were going to become an exit planner?  
 | Tyson Ray: | Yeah, so I've been doing this for 25 years. Before I knew I wanted to be a business exit planner, I had acquired six different practices probably in the first 15 years or so of my practice. Five of the six went off, well, the last one didn't. And it was more my fault for not doing enough due diligence and feeling like I was going to be the savior of the transaction and just make it happen and make it work. I think probably a few years later, honestly, I was starting to get, I don't want to say bored, but the business became very easy to, for the process and the procedures, we have to basically build these relationships to help people and then have people take care of those people. And I felt like what's my next challenge? And right about that time, I had been dealing with a client that I had had for my entire career.  
 | Tyson Ray: | It was an eye doctor and he was ready to retire and his whole plan all along was to turn over this practice to his junior eye doctor that was going to buy him out. And she was much more like a daughter than she was this partner. And I watched them f around and struggle with valuations and accounting and attorneys and CPAs and just how do they do this? And all along I kept trying to help them figure out what the plan was to try and find the win-win and maybe leave some of the financing out there and maybe let them see what these opportunities were. And it really boiled down to me having meetings with both of them sitting in the room and it took actually having meetings sitting down with both of them and both their spouses in the room that we finally, and I just kept saying to them, compromise means both of you aren't going to get what you want.  
 | Tyson Ray: | And what was ironic, and I don't know how it came up, I don't know where I got it from other than I think just years of experience, but when the spouses sat down and we went to start the meeting, I said, I want to write down first and foremost what you're most afraid of. And they all went around what they're most afraid of and some were afraid about relationships, some were afraid about the business failing, some were afraid about not getting enough or paying too much. Anyway, we worked through the bottom line is we were worked through a plan of to figure out exactly how it was going to work. Everybody agreed to it and then I stepped away and they went off into their corners with their attorneys to get this thing put in writing, and to my surprise, I'd get an email update.  
 | Tyson Ray: | They kept me in the loop of what the emails are, but for two or three months, this thing was just bouncing back and forth and it was starting to get just almost sentence structures or commas and all of a sudden the terms are starting to change. And finally I was reaching out to both parties, the junior doctor and the senior doctor, and they're like, no, no, but my attorney said and my, I had to finally call both attorneys and have a conference call but both of and say, knock it off, we had this done. Yes, they don't get what they want and yes, she doesn't get what she wants, but this was the agreement and this works. And I just felt like left without someone to help represent the business and represent the interest that of what was the common ground, if you will, to do the transaction. It would've just been this legal bill just kept running up and it wasn't the attorneys, and this is not a thing against the attorneys. Attorneys are doing their job, represent the best interests of their client, and what I've found is there's got to be a position where someone can come in and represent the best interests of the business and the parties involved and understand where the compromises have to be. And from that, I decided to go seek out a challenge and got a certification as a certified business exit planner  
 | David King: | And  
 | Tyson Ray: | Really realized where being a financial advisor to individuals takes a whole nother level. When you start getting into the businesses and whether it's a family business or whether you're dealing with multiple business owners or just an emotional sale period, it is a wonderful opportunity to kind of apply that total relationship process now into the business setting. And like you had said, David, with your theme being beginning with the end in mind, I just recently talked to one of our newest business as a clients and they're kind of like, where do you start? And I'm like, we're going to start with each one of the business owners and their spouse and ask what it is. Do you want to leave in the end of your family and then we're going to work backwards with every one of them to figure out what you need from this transaction and then what does that look like? And then to piece it all together and they were going to start with an attorney. I'm like, the attorney can't do that. That's not what their attorney's expertise is. The attorney can start talking about the legal things and business valuations, but you've got to go back and answer all these other things before you're going to be in a position to answer what do you need to sell the business for and be happy with it.  
 | David King: | And it's interesting the way you described the one deal that we just went back and forth, bouncing between the attorneys that if you get the team pulled together sooner rather than later, they can do so much more to help you. And it's counterproductive to say, well, I'm going to wait to see if we've absolutely positively got a deal before I bother to retain an attorney and start paying fees. Then their fees, that's when they get to be a drain on you. If they're engaged early and they can help, the little bit that they can help at the beginning is worth so much more than all the hours of reconstructing. If you're a lawyer and you get a letter of intent and it's fully signed and you've never spoken with anybody about the deal yet, there's a lot of catch up to do and that's when there can be some kind of reconstruction of the deal on both sides like, Hey, we didn't ever consider this issue or that issue. So it's just always so much more helpful. And then with tax issues, people will hate to hear the truth that yeah, there were some steps you could have taken two years ago. Now you've got what you've got and you've got to go ahead, so you better get people engaged in is hopefully years in advance. How much time do you like to work with clients in advance of say, a transition either internal or extreme?  
 | Tyson Ray: | Well, to your point, that's where wisdom comes from. Learning from all the wrong ways you learn how to do it to avoid the headaches for everybody else, it's like you can't, there isn't a timeframe. It's almost what's the plan because the plan often has to encompass the unknown transaction, which is obviously death. And so usually when I'm meeting a business owner, the conversation is around what is the exit plan? Helping them realize the exit plan often isn't just for what your retirement's going to look like or when you exit the business, but it's also this. What happens that happens to you? What's the plan? What's the contingency plan? How people are tied in.  
 | Tyson Ray: | We like to try and catch 'em to answer a specific question. I like to try and catch 'em ideally five years beforehand because you can start, you have time to start having, you're not in a crisis, you're not in a rush to start having some of those planning purposes because there's a lot of different ways to do these things and then it's depending on whether it's an internal sale or you're selling to a third party or it's within a family type setting, but it's to try and understand about, and we do the same thing for individuals for retirement. It's like the more time I can catch you before you retire, the more we can prepare for that event. You call me the day you're walking out the door. There's not a lot we can do on the prep side of things and you lose a lot of benefit or options really, especially with your tax planning.  
 | David King: | Yeah. Well, let's get your sweet spot. What size of business, and I'm sure that's a range, but the business owners that you work with, what size businesses do they typically own?  
 | Tyson Ray: | Yeah, I think there's an underserved category. It seems there's a lot of institutions at play in a lot of banks and trust departments and law firms and accounting firms for that matter, they're all chasing after. In our area it's the probably 30, 40, 50 million business and up the mom and pop five to 25 million business is almost, they almost don't even want to deal with them, not enough. Whatever it is, they need fees out of it and I really think that's a really miserv area. So we have a specialty service, if you will, to come in and help those. The most recent one I did and it was involving in estate, the valuation of the family's wealth was about 150 million and I was just dumbfounded because of how big the business had gotten and how complex everything was. People stopped paying attention to little things like are the documents signed?  
 | Tyson Ray: | Was anybody paying attention to that? The irrevocable life insurance trust from the trust company has been sending you notices saying this second to die policy is going to lapse because it's been underfunded, but no one was reading the fine print. And there's a reason why when we come in with a total relationship, we want to see everything and have a second set of eyes on everything is because it's these little things that people take for granted. Yes, I have this. Well, okay, well show me the signed copy because if someone dies or you're going to actually have that transaction, those signed copies actually need to be produced and sometimes they can't find them or heaven forbid it's the draft and then you call the law firm and they're like, well, never signed the sign. They never sent us back the signed one.  
 | Tyson Ray: | And so it reminds me the plumbers pipes leak and the shoemakers kids don't have any shoes. The bigger the business got, I think some of these professionals were so enthralled with helping the family with this bigger, better business that they lost sight of some very basic fundamentals or they just assumed like there's relationship fatigue that people just assume, well, of course that's done. We built this whole thing off that premise. And part of the joy we have of showing up is kind of show us the proof and the proof for us as the documents and going through those and making sure that beneficiary designations are right, and what you told me is actually written in these documents can go a long way, but as far as dollar amounts are concerned, but I grew up with an eviction notice in my refrigerator when I was little. I don't put a value on people based on how much money they have or that somehow because their business is bigger, they should get a better type of service. What I found is I'm looking more for the type of client that wants to appreciate having someone come in and kind of give a second opinion and kind of double check the work of everybody involved to make sure nothing was missed.  
 | David King: | Yes, that's the same approach that I take in terms of the business' legal records and that sort of detail that due diligence is where deals are make or break, they're going to dig through. The buyer's attorney is going to dig through everything and anything that needs to be fixed is going to have to be fixed. If it can't be fixed, there may be a deduction off the price or if you may derail a deal altogether, in particularly if you don't have reliable books, if your accounting's no good, then nobody's going to rely on anything. You want to be sure that you do your own due diligence before the buyer does so that if there's anything wrong, you can fix it before the buyer ever sees it. So this is again, part of getting your team together early on and really scrubbing the details before the buyer does because then it's obviously not going to be getting the same sort of friendly eyes and the level of scrutiny is going to be much higher,  
 | Tyson Ray: | And then especially in the family businesses to help them clean the books up where you get some of, may I say, the personal expenses that yes, it's a justified business expense, but to another business owner, they wouldn't count that as a business expense and clean those books up because a lot of the family businesses, and I think a lot of the smaller businesses tend to take for granted the tax efficiencies, but by taking advantage of tax efficiencies, you're lowering the valuation of your business.  
 | David King: | Right, right, right. This is kind of an interlude here, but being a financial advisor, the financial advisors I've had on in the past have got to make some disclosures at some point here. If you want to make any sort of disclosures you have to make for compliance, that's fine. Or if you want to wait until the end, just let me know.  
 | Tyson Ray: | Yeah, no, I think the disclosures I would need to make is that we custodian with Raymond James and the information that I'm sharing is mine and not theirs. And then outside of that, because I'm not and don't have any product to sell or position to try and justify why I'm spending my time with you today, I don't have to deal with anything else because this is more about that total relationship book and more about advice about how people could try and help people than it is about trying to sell anything. Usually the disclosures are around some type of sale.  
 | David King: | Right, right. Okay. Well, that is much simpler than they usually are with financial advisors, the clients that you work with and the value of the businesses they own relative to their whole net worth. Now, I can run the gamut here. A lot of those small family business owned, they can be extremely large portion of their net worth and it's an absolute tragedy if they can't pull those chips off the table. Do you have the range of clients that have more or less of their net worth tied up in the business they're going to sell?  
 | Tyson Ray: | Yeah, unfortunately, it's almost more often than not. It's usually the smaller the business, the more that is tied into the business and in some cases it's all outside of maybe some working capital or some cash that they've taken out or their personal real estate or their personal retirement account. And a lot of times it's helping point out that some of the strategies of balancing even just taking some reasonable compensation as far as justifying in the business, this was what the actual c e O or president's salary would be in the marketplace. Let's make sure that that's representing or you're taking that out as the compensation to justify the job and it's an expense of the business, so if you step away, that expense is in that business. So that could be what that other, or if you go to hire somebody else, what that other role would end up being.  
 | Tyson Ray: | But I find more often than not the greatest risk to many of the business owners is they've tied their future as far as any kind of retirement or any type of peace of mind of knowing if the business struggles or if the sale doesn't go through is expected that they have some of their net worth have been pulled out and stewarded or saved on the other side of that, the other thing I often find, especially in that five to 20 million range is what the individual business owner thinks their business is worth and what it is really worth in the marketplace are two different things. I think a lot of businesses I'm finding that didn't plan well as far as taking money out or kind of building the valuation of the business is no, you might need to keep running your business and your retirement is hiring someone else and you're not going to be able to have a sale. The cashflow is greater than what you could sell the business for.  
 | David King: | Yeah, and that's the thing about the smaller businesses too. Investment bankers won't typically help something that's smaller than a 10 million transaction, so how are you going to get this thing sold? Do most of the small business owners you work with have an internal succession or pass along to their children, or do they go out and sell to third parties?  
 | Tyson Ray: | Yeah, it's a lot more internal. It's a lot more family. Well, it'd be family first, then internal, then it's a lot more merger than necessarily being just bought out by just a third party or a third party. In the private equity space, a lot of it is you'd find another competitor that you're going to merge into, but the risk there is you kind of tip your hat when you're saying, Hey, will you want to come and acquire me? Most of the time they're also a competitor. And then on the family business, which is by far I think it's in the country, it's by far the majority of small businesses that are family businesses looking to turn it over to the next member of the family. It's also doing the planning around is that person ready? Is that the right person? Because just because they're your family doesn't mean, or just because it's the person that's been in the business means they can run this business.  
 | Tyson Ray: | I think a lot of business owners don't realize that they wear 2, 3, 4 hats by the time they get ready to transition that business and don't fully appreciate what the cost is going to be to put these other people in place or the child now has to, one of the problems in family businesses that I say all the time is you got to be careful because you're going to try and monetize the rest of your life around the neck of your child and then hope that doesn't disrupt the family relationship much less if something happens to the business or the child struggles, are you really going to be retired? And so there's just a lot to that total relationship that comes in when you bring in the family dynamic, you bring in the business dynamic, you bring in hopes and dreams and what did the spouse want while you were working to grow that business? That all plays into this.  
 | David King: | How often do you find that people, an owner will have it in mind that someone within the company is going to succeed them and take it over, and then when they finally present this to their designated successor, they have no interest in taking on the risks of ownership. They would be overwhelmed with the stress of it. How often do you find people's expectations disrupted like that?  
 | Tyson Ray: | Yeah, it's really one of two extremes. And what we would think would happen is is that the plan was in place and everybody knew it was going to happen, and that's often not the case. One of two extremes happens. One is the business owner has never groomed the team to take it over because the business owner out of probably partially survival mode, partially I grew this business, they never let go of the controls or the knowledge to be able to give it to anybody else. And so therefore, everybody's afraid to touch those things or that business owner is never going to let go of the control. I think I've ran into several that basically at the end of the day, it's like, you're never going to be able to sell this because the business is your identity and it's who you are and you're going to die with it, which is fine, let's make that plan.  
 | Tyson Ray: | But the idea of you trying to sell it to somebody else, no one wants to take it from you. No one wants to be responsible to you because of how important it is to you. It's, it's a mental emotional thing, but it's helping them identify where the blind spots are. It has been very rare because it's partially, it goes back to time, right? To groom these employees, to take these things over takes years to do correctly, and that also goes along with how that plan works. Now, the part of being into this relationship and coming in from a financial advising standpoint is like I said, how much time do I want to have to do the planning process? I try and encourage businesses almost from a contingency standpoint and also maybe from a retention standpoint is to help start grooming their key employees to basically be thinking about and finding out who does want to take that risk or as you're interviewing and bringing in people to try and find those that want to take that over because I think it strengthens the business no matter how the sale goes, to have those key employees tied into the business wanting to be part of that ownership structure or at the very least, being retained in such a way that another owner could make sure they keep those key employees.  
 | David King: | So let's just take a hypothetical business owner, young entrepreneur, worked for a few years for someone else, let's say 10, 15 years for someone else, and now they've got a little bit of savings. They're going to go out and start their own business. What's the first bit of advice you would give them to be in a position to exit their business and retire comfortably in the years up the road?  
 | Tyson Ray: | Yeah, I think the young person starting out, I think first and foremost, that's the cheapest time to buy some type of term insurance to give themselves the catastrophic plan, not the whole life insurance that's expensive for the rest of your life. When you're starting out a business, or I would probably say in the first decade of your business, especially if you're probably in your thirties, forties, term life insurance is still very, very inexpensive and you have a term of your life that has a death component, that's a great risk to you that for pennies on the dollar, you can cover that with insurance, and that will help you in a lot of different ways. A lot of business owners find out the hard way if they're going to go build the building or do the expansion or go take the multimillion dollar debt out from the bank.  
 | Tyson Ray: | That one of the terms of the bank, it's surprised is you need insurance. Well, if in your thirties you buy a 30 year term policy for a million or 2 million bucks for a couple hundred dollars, and now the bank comes back and says, Hey, we need to have a million dollars of insurance on you, and now you're 50, it's really expensive to go get that. If you can get that, if you had any kind of preexisting conditions. And so I'm not an insurance salesman. We recommend insurance when you have an insurance need, and a lot of young business owners don't realize the value and the flexibility of just a simple term policy can give you and the business succession and exit planning standpoint, if somebody else was in the process of getting started, obviously bringing in the accountants and the attorneys to help figure out what the best tax structure is.  
 | Tyson Ray: | And then the business that's kind of finding their footing and getting started is just really paying attention to any kind of financing you take out and how you structure those terms of financing. Because especially coming out of the financial crisis and what we've experienced in the last few years here with coming out of Covid and what the Fed did with interest rates in the course of a year, businesses were financing debt at 3% in the five year term. It's going to roll over at 7, 8, 9. And so just really watching how you stagger or tier or t tranch your debt, and in some cases realizing the longer duration with a little bit more interest gives you a longer runway than the problem in the financial crisis specifically is we've had periods of time in this country, and that's an example where banks just didn't want to lend anymore, and if your note was coming due and that bank doesn't want that business risk, you're stuck. And those are big blind spots people have, especially when they make the mistake of trying to find the lowest rate possible, thinking that's the best option when sometimes it's balancing those options.  
 | David King: | That's a great point. Great point. Well, Tyson, I've really enjoyed this and you've got so much to share. Maybe we'll have to have you on again sometime, but anyway, have a wonderful fall. And I'm not sure if you're more of a Packers fan or a Bears fan. You're right in between the two there.  
 | Tyson Ray: | I am stuck between, I just let people tell me who won, and then I try and figure out how I want to either give 'em a hard time or celebrate with them. But if people want to more about the book, it's for sale, that total relationship will be on Amazon. And if they want to follow up with me, the best way to connect with me is through LinkedIn. We have a business and succession brochure that we kind of put out about how we go through that total relationship process, and so they can reach out to LinkedIn. We'd be happy to send them that if they'd be  
 | David King: | Interested. Wonderful. Well, for all the listeners, thank you for joining us on Selling Your Business with David King, and we will see you again next time.