Tales from the Brown Desk
Our biweekly criminal law podcast, Tales from the Brown Desk, is brought to you by Rigney Law LLC and Teri Muehlhausen. Tales from the Brown Desk is a free flowing conversation involving two foul-mouthed criminal defense attorneys. It may include graphic descriptions of sexual activity, violence, and traffic law. It may not be suitable for children. Listener discretion advised.
Tales from the Brown Desk
Tales from the Brown Desk - S2E3: Pepper Spray in Jail, Marion County Judges, ICE, Glock Switch & Florida Man
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He told the jail he had pepper spray. Indiana still convicted him for keeping it.
Season 2, Episode 3 of Tales from the Brown Desk. Indianapolis criminal defense attorneys Jake and Kassi Rigney sit down with Teri to unpack a new Indiana Supreme Court case, two local judges facing misconduct charges, ICE activity in Indianapolis, a leftover Flock-camera question, the Glock Switch, and two Florida Man stories.
In this episode:
• Flock cameras leftover: if the footage catches a crime, can charges be filed?
• Gary v. State (Ind. April 9, 2026): 3 a.m. on a friend’s couch, no booking search, a “starter kit,” and the Supreme Court saying the crime was not handing it over
• Fox 59: misconduct charges against Marion Superior Judges Jose Salinas and Geoffrey Gaither
• ICE in Indianapolis: what bystanders can do, what to do if you are the one in the car, and what Braun, Hogsett, and Banks actually said
• Glock Switch: answers must start with the letter G
• Florida Man: the swamp and the man under the hotel bed.
This is not legal advice. It is two foul-mouthed Indianapolis defense attorneys and their co-host talking through real cases and current events.
Website: TalesfromtheBrownDesk.com
Firm: RigneyLawIndy.com
Send a questions or topic for the next episode to teri@talesfromthebrowndesk.com.
Tales from the Brown Desk is hosted by Jake and Kassi Rigney and produced/co-hosted by Teri Muehlhausen. Listener discretion advised. 18+.
THE CRIMINAL LAW PODCAST
TalesfromtheBrownDesk.com
Intro
Jake RigneyIt's Friday afternoon. We've locked the door because I don't want anyone to hear that I'm listening to a Bengals record. And also because it's time for another edition of our bi-weekly podcast, Tales from the Brown Deck. I'm Jake Rigney of Rigney Law LLC. With me as usual is my law partner, wife, and the person in this room with the best music taste of all three of us. Cassie Rigney. Teri Muehlhausen is our host, manager, editor, co-producer, topic selector, Florida Man monitor, email screener, and patron saint of the green party.
Jake RigneyFriendly reminder Tales from the Brown Desk is a free flowing conversation involving two foul mouth attorneys. It may include graphic descriptions of sexual activities, violence, and a story about how an unsuspecting dude with a two-piece custom made full two was attacked by a knife-wielding maniac bent on revenge after losing a game of pool. Not cool, Slim. Not cool. It may not be suitable for children. Jim Crossy, Jim Snyder, Rick Snyder, Rick and Morty, Morton Downey Jr. Robert Downey Jr. F. You get the point. It's not suitable for anyone. Here's Teri.
Teri MuehlhausenHi, Jake. How are you today?
Jake RigneyUh I am looking forward to this being over with.
Teri MuehlhausenIt it will be soon. At least you're honest.
Jake RigneyIt's not you.
Teri MuehlhausenOkay. I won't take it personally. I'll try not to.
Jake RigneyYou shouldn't.
Teri MuehlhausenHi, Kassi. How are you?
Kassi RigneyHi, Teri. I'm well. I was happy to record today.
Teri MuehlhausenThat that makes this all worthwhile. So thank you. Um, so last week we talked about an appellate case where a judge pulled a victim off the stand. We talked about flock cameras, and we introduced a new Glock switch segment.
Jake RigneyYeah.
Teri MuehlhausenThis week we're going to talk about a guy who told a jail that he had pepper spray and he still caught a felony for it. Yep. We'll talk about two Marion County judges who just got hit with misconduct charges.
Jake RigneyYeah, that's gonna be a tough one.
Teri MuehlhausenIt will be, because they're they're they're the judges. And we're gonna talk about ICE a little bit. We'll do the Glock Switch segment again, and I have a couple Florida Mans for you guys.
Jake RigneyAwesome.
Teri MuehlhausenUm, but first we're gonna start with a little leftover from the last episode. So last week we talked about Flock cameras, you know, those things that take your picture on the way to Kroger.
Jake RigneyYep.
Teri MuehlhausenAnd after that aired, a question was posed to me, and I I don't have the answer to this question, so I'm gonna pass it on to you.
Flock Camera Listener Question
Jake RigneyAn email? Wait, a listener question?
Teri MuehlhausenA listener question. I know.
Kassi RigneySee, It's the first listener question. Do we need to hang it on the wall like a business's first dollar?
Jake RigneyI assumed that the 38 downloads that we got last week were all people who clicked, didn't get through the intro, and then turned off their computer and set it on fire to avoid ever having to listen to us again.
Teri MuehlhausenWell, well, at least this one didn't.
Jake RigneyIs it your mom? No, no. Because I we have gotten listener questions from your mom before. I remember that.
Teri MuehlhausenWe have, and she probably has some, but we're gonna we'll we'll put those on the back burner.
Jake RigneyOkay.
Teri MuehlhausenYes. Um, so the question is say somebody commits a crime and it was captured on the Flock footage.
Jake RigneyYep. All right.
Teri MuehlhausenNow somebody later on sits down with that footage and spots that crime. Can criminal charges be filed?
Kassi RigneyIf they can show reliability of the recording system, then potentially that video could come in without a live witness who saw the crime.
Jake RigneyYeah, absolutely. Um it's uh the the question is always the same, no matter what type of evidence the state's trying to use, right? And that question is can the state prove a crime was committed beyond a reasonable doubt? And they can they prove who committed that crime? And so if they have Flock camera footage and they can also figure out who the people in it are, um, and that is clearly a crime and there's no possible defense for it, then they can put the flock camera. See, and you said footage, I'm gonna talk about that in a second. Um they can put that Flock camera evidence in through what's called the Silent Witness Foundation and um present that as evidence of a crime being committed if they can prove who the people in the in you know the video are. But that's the important thing, right? Video or footage, right? Flock doesn't actually do that. Um, at least the evidence I've seen in in cases with Flock, it's not video footage. So they are taking a still photo and often sometimes more than one still photo, and it would be difficult to prove a whole crime with a series of still photos. Not impossible, but usually you would need some eyewitness testimony to sort of explain what we're looking at. Usually. But if they start recording video, who knows?
Teri MuehlhausenAnd this isn't a practice that you're aware of where somebody just has the responsibility to go through footage to look for crimes to keep society safe.
Kassi RigneyI'm not aware of that. I wouldn't surprise me if someone's working on an AI to automatically go and do that in real time, but yeah, the the difficulty with that is there are not enough people.
Jake RigneyUm so, like, and this reminds me of sort of a a physics thing. I don't want to turn this into Star Talk. I know Kassi does. Um the issue with some type of space travel is that there simply isn't enough matter in the universe to propel us that far. Right? We can't go to distant galaxies because there is you could load the entire Earth up into a spaceship and it still wouldn't get us there, even if you burned all of it. Right. Um and they have the same problem with Flock cameras. There are not enough people working in the government to watch all of the footage or all look at all of the pictures that they take. So the vast majority of the pictures.
Teri MuehlhausenThat's where AI comes in.
Kassi RigneyWell, and uh it's seems more of a resource after the fact. Uh, and between the flock cameras, and if you have a you know heavily lived-in area with the uh ring cameras and whatnot, I mean, it seems more and more difficult for people to be able to commit crimes at all. It's just gonna get harder and harder to get away with these
Gary v. State of Indiana
Kassi Rigneythings.
Teri MuehlhausenNow we're going to move on to our next topic, which is the Court of Appeals. Well, it's actually higher than that. It's the Indiana Supreme Court. This is an appellate decision that we will talk about. It's u Gary versus the State of Indiana. It was the Indiana Supreme Court decision decided on April 9th of this year, and the case addressed whether an incarcerated person knowingly and voluntarily possessed contraband, specifically pepper spray in the jail. Did you guys read this opinion? It's only nine pages.
Kassi RigneyI always read the opinions.
Teri MuehlhausenThank you, Kassi.
Jake RigneyI did. And to make up for last week, where I didn't read the Court of Appeals opinion, uh, not only did I read the Supreme Court opinion you sent us, I went and read the Court of Appeals opinion that got overturned by the Supreme Court opinion. So I'm back to even. I did extra credit this time.
Teri MuehlhausenI'm impressed because I almost went and read that Court of Appeals opinion.
Jake RigneyI read it.
Teri MuehlhausenWow.
Jake RigneyRight before lunch.
Teri MuehlhausenImpressed. So do you do you want to give the listeners a rundown of this case?
Jake RigneySure. I can do that. So this gentleman, he has a peculiar first name. It's kind of awesome. It's like terverius. Terveris. Terveris Gary. So Terveris had a night of revelry, um, which may or may not have included methamphetamine and fentanyl and some other things. Um, he did not go out and have two beers. He went out and did it up and um crashed out on someone's couch. It's unclear from the Supreme Court opinion whether he was invited in to crash out on the couch or he just broke into someone's house. But my guess is that because he didn't get arrested for any of that, he must have had permission, but then they wanted him to leave, so they called the cops.
Teri MuehlhausenYeah, I don't... Like what a friend, and what a way to wake up.
Jake RigneyYeah, I know. Like, man, if you if you invite me over and let me sleep on the couch, maybe don't call the cops on me afterward. That's also not cool. But um so the police come and they're like, yo, you gotta go, but he won't move. Um, so they eventually just sort of pick him up, carry him out of the house, put him in the back of the squad car. He won't assist them in any way, including by even putting his feet inside the car. Like they have to take his feet one at a time and load him in like he's a toddler.
Teri MuehlhausenIs that a good tactic?
Jake RigneyI mean, it depends on what your goal is, right? If your goal is to make it as hard as possible for the police, then sure, that's a great tactic. Um, it's a good way to make things harder for them without getting charged with resisting law enforcement. You can't get charged with resisting for passively laying there and making them carry you. Um whereas if you fight them or tense up or run away, you can be. That is why, uh especially if you watch sort of old protest videos where the protesters knew what they were doing, they all just sit there and they refuse to move, but they don't fight, right? They just go limp, make the cops drag them out one at a time, because that's not illegal. The cops don't like it. No, it's much harder. It's a pain in the ass for them, um, and it ruins their day, but it's not illegal. So, yeah, if your goal is to make things harder for them or to make a spectacle of yourself, like protesters uh are often doing, um, then um that is the way to do it. Um without getting charged with a crime. So that's what Mr. Gary did. And then they get him down to the jail. He once again will passive just passively non-cooperates with their entire process. They don't search him. They put him in jail. Um, and uh I think they put him in sort of the drunk tank or the padded room. There's no water in there. Um Kassi, you want to tell the rest or have I talked too long?
Kassi RigneyUh well he eventually wakes up and realizes that he has some contraband in his pocket.
Jake RigneyWhat kind?
Kassi RigneyUh a lighter and some what was it, mace? Pepper spray, and there were a couple other minor things, I thought. Oh, some crumbs of drugs I think were in there too.
Jake RigneyHe told them he had a knife, but he did not have a knife.
Teri MuehlhausenAnd a starter kit, right?
Jake RigneyWell, he did, but I think that's what he meant by the pepper spray and the the lighter.
Speaker 2The lighter... ahhh. to start of fire.
Jake RigneyRight. I'm not sure what starter kit means.
Teri MuehlhausenThat was gonna be my next question. Like, what is a jail starter kit?
Kassi RigneyYou might be right about the starting a fire, it might be that, but I'm not entirely sure. I'd have to ask one way.
Jake RigneyI think Dungeons and Dragons starter kit when somebody says starter kit. Like, I don't know. If you want to talk about the mines of Fandelver, I'm I'm fine, but I have no idea what what they meant, what he meant by that.
Kassi RigneySo Mr. Gary uh states he didn't know that he brought it in. There's really no problem with any of that. He does the right thing, which is alert the uh jail staff that he has the contraband. He certainly doesn't want to be caught with it hidden. He'd certainly get in trouble for that. Uh, all of that, fine. Mr. Gary would have been fine. The trouble came in when he decided to use his possession of that contraband as a bargaining chip and started making demands on jail staff before he returned it. So uh that was wherein lie he broke the law, was when he he turned he refused to turn it over.
Teri MuehlhausenHe he felt pretty powerful with that starter key.
Kassi RigneyUnfortunately, um he's not the first one to make make that mistake when interacting with law enforcement. He thought he had the upper hand. No, no, having worked the other side, there's very few uh loopholes like that available anymore. And I'm sorry, Gary, you didn't find one.
Jake RigneyIf he had just given it to them when they asked for it, he would have in fact had a loophole. Right, because there is a loophole for involuntarily possessing something, right? He didn't you know they're all kind of assuming, nobody specifically says it in any of these opinions, but essentially that he was unconscious or incoherent when they took him in to the jail, right? So if you just wake up in the jail, you didn't intend to possess any of the things that are in your pockets in a jail, right? Because you intended to possess them on your buddy's couch.
Teri MuehlhausenYes.
Jake RigneyBut yeah, once he's like, hey, look what I got, I get a phone call, or you guys get an arson. Like that's that's not what he said. I'm embellishing, but um, but yeah, that's that's where they're like, well, now you are possessing a thing. That's what the Supreme Court said. That decision is correct. Um and the Supreme Court took a little bit of time to note um that it doesn't really matter how it all got in, or even necessarily how he got into the jail, right? Um what's illegal is possessing pepper spray while you're in the jail. So even if he hadn't brought it in, like if somebody had given it to him, a different inmate had snuck it in and given it to him, that's still illegal. Um if he goes and gives it to someone else, then they're committing their crime too. Um so it's and that's important to keep in mind. What's illegal here is possessing voluntarily possessing a thing that can cause uh bodily injury to another person. Kassi, I'm interested to know what you think about this though. It was a very that is a very broad statute. It is illegal when you're in a jail to possess anything that can be used to cause bodily injury to another person. Like he didn't cause bodily injury to anyone. He didn't actually spray anyone with it. Um he did maybe spray some under a door, but it didn't sound like anyone was injured in that. Like there are so many things in the laundry.
Teri MuehlhausenThe silverware
Kassi RigneyOh yeah, I mean the spork the tray, you know.
Teri MuehlhausenA chair.
Jake RigneyRight?
Teri MuehlhausenAnything . A pillow.
Kassi RigneyWell, you think it's too broad?
Jake RigneyWell, it just I think that if the state wanted to start charging people with that crime, they could literally charge a hundred people a day in every prison in Indiana with it, right? Possessing tools in the workshop, right? Or a rock in the yard. Heck, I mean, a basketball can be used to inflict bodily injury on somebody, right?
Kassi RigneyWell, right, but the law still, there's still law there that just not anything. There has to be some kind of rational basis to think that it could cause bodily injury.
Jake RigneyYeah, but almost anything.
Teri MuehlhausenIt does. And the rational basis is that person's not in their sound mind and can use this object to hurt me.
Kassi RigneyAnd I guess some of that falls under the the individuals that are suffering under this law. It's not something that they're individually likely to be able to appeal and challenge on that that is too that it's too broad and then void for vagueness. Um, that likely some larger statutory challenge by the ACLU or ICLU would have to be done. Same with some other actions that go on with the parole, it's just very expensive to launch those kind of challenges.
Jake RigneyYeah, to get the whole statute thrown out, that would be but like if the state started uh enforcing that the way in theory they could, then you could have all sorts of weird challenges to it. Um it's just a very just odd statute because there are so many things that could qualify.
Kassi RigneyIt s tends to indicate, in my opinion, that they the state is reserved to use that on what they believed were clear cases where it applied and that it wouldn't get appealed and wouldn't wouldn't get challenged on that basis.
Jake RigneySo hopefully prosecuting screeners that are making decisions about filing charges or making good choices there. But as we know, like as as I've heard in other podcasts, it only takes one asshole, right? So cross our fingers that our government keeps working the way, hopefully it ought to.
Teri MuehlhausenYeah. So wrapping this case up, what rule do you think the Supreme Court wrote? Because the Indiana Court of Appeals was saying something else. But so what's the takeaway? What rule for the next guy?
Jake RigneyWho wakes up with meth or
Teri Muehlhausenyep, and is dragged off to jail and now yeah. What should he do?
Jake RigneyTell them and give it to them.
Teri MuehlhausenAnd avoid the felony.
Kassi RigneyAnd I don't think that the Supreme Court ruling changed anything. The Court of Appeals kind of got off track, but I mean, it's just a layperson's when I read it, I immediately knew there was exactly what the non-lawyers, why his problem he was focusing on the right wrong issue. You're right, you didn't bring it in. That's not the problem.
Jake RigneyYeah, it was weird to me that that's what the Court of Appeals said, too. Like they accepted that argument, they rejected the state's argument and said, well, he didn't voluntarily bring it in, so not a crime. But the statute doesn't say you have to knowingly or intentionally bring it in. It says you just have to knowingly or intentionally possess it and inside a jail. And so once he's like give me my phone call or you don't get my pepper spray. That's I mean, that's possession.
Misconduct Charges Against Marion County Judges
Teri MuehlhausenSo Gary has a story about two appellate courts reading the same facts and landing in two different places. And we've previously addressed the question of does anything happen to a judge when he gets reversed or she.
Jake RigneyRight.
Teri MuehlhausenNow this time the question is, does anything happen to a judge whose staff loses people in the system? And I say this because you two are well aware that Fox 59 News is reporting that misconduct charges have been filed against two Marion County judges. One of them is Marion Superior Court 23, and then the other one is Marion Superior 9, where numerous counts have been filed. What kind of harm are we talking about here when the staff's not watched?
Jake RigneyIt depends on what kind of court it is and what kind of case we're dealing with, right? Um courtroom 23 in Marion County handles level six felonies and misdemeanors, and they handle all different kinds. Um once upon a time it was just a drug court, and so they only put level six felony drug cases in there. Um, but subsequently they've kind of gotten rid of those drug court silos and have sort of opened all those courts up to just regular cases. Um and so the allegation, and I want to stress they are allegations. I'm not um I'm not assuming that they are correct or not, um, but the allegations are that the court staff failed to update a release code correctly, which resulted in somebody sitting in jail for an extra five and a half or six months when they weren't supposed to be in jail. Um which if it's true, creates all sorts of other interesting questions like where is that person's lawyer and why aren't they involved? In this at all. But I don't know the answer to any of those questions. I don't know that the allegations are true. I will say that I've practiced in front of both of these judges. And that's kind of about all I can say about it. Other than both of them are generally pretty quick kind when I appear in front of them. They do not generally make it hard for me, which is what's most important to me.
Teri MuehlhausenI think I read something about the one judge with uh the case where someone's sat in jail for 166 days. Like he self-reported himself. So it's not like someone came along and found this, but I think he self-reported a couple issues.
Jake RigneyOh, Judge Salinas did.
Kassi RigneyWell, you know, it's just it's so difficult, and there have been a lot of problems with the new procedures and the new building and some of that transition. Of course, a judge is in charge of their staff, but you specifically mean you know, someone entered some code in the computer wrong and it didn't get caught for so long. Um, I don't know where the rest of those details are, but I mean, I don't know every key stroke of my paralegal and how long would it take for them for me to. I mean, a potentially an attorney could um be in in trouble the same way. So it it's tough. Um, I'd give them grace. And um I I've also had good experiences in their courts, and there's there's procedure issues at that building that I think are contributing.
Jake RigneyYeah, let me let me flesh out sort of the details of that a little bit so that you understand what Cassie's talking about with the new building and all that. So for I mean, 60 years-ish, um criminal cases were largely heard in the City County building downtown. Um, it's a whole block, it's a giant building with 25 floors and 12 two wings with six more floors on each wing, um, and courts all over the place. It was fun uh practicing there because you had to learn where all the courts were and how to get between them. And it was like this special little skill that only people who work there regularly knew, and you'd always know when you saw some attorney that wasn't familiar with it because they'd be wandering around trying to figure out where the where the hell they're going. Um and um and you're you could also it was also a great way to demonstrate competence to your client, right? Because you'd meet him downstairs and be like, okay, come on, I know where we're going. And they're like, Okay, he obviously knows what he's doing because he knows exactly how to get to this court. He knows he doesn't have to look at the signs, he knows where we're going. It's all so it was like just this first ability to demonstrate competence to new clients when you take them in that building. Um, but four or five years ago, they decided to move the criminal courts out to a former super fund site, uh, which is uh used to be some sort of toxic waste. It's a perfect spot, right? Yeah, and they they built uh a giant new facility with about 10 floors and I don't know, 50 courtrooms in it or something like that. But there are a lot of quirks with it. Um one of them is there's only one way in and one way out, which means all the people who don't like each other have to come in and out the same door. They all have to park in the same free parking lot. Um the prosecutors uh for a long time um were also just parking out there in that free parking lot um with the people that they were prosecuting. Um yeah, so no safety concerns there. Um, on the other hand, I mean, prosecutors were walking into the CC, the City County building right along with the people that they were prosecuting too. So it's not like it's not like it's that much different. Um but what is different is there are no longer court, sort of individualized court rooms and chambers. So back at the city county building, if I was going to courtroom five, criminal courtroom five, I know it's up on the third floor of the West Wing. I go up there, I know where the door to the court office is, I can go into the court office, I can say hi to all the people who work there. They all know me, I all know them. Hi, Charlotta, hi Karen, how are you? Right? From there, you can go into the courtroom, or you can go back into the judge's chambers. If you know them and they know you, they'll let you go back in there. People used to go back into the jury room, sit there with Judge Hawkins, watch cable TV, um, listen to the deputies talk about whatever they wanted to talk about, et cetera, et cetera. It was this communal thing where once you were in it, you could sort of yet access to all these people. It was easy to get a hold of them, it was easy to talk to them. There were prosecutors back there, defense attorneys would go back there, judge was often just sitting there. Um, sometimes if you walked into the court offices, you would actually just see the judge standing there at the counter, like working on things. Um, and no one got hurt, right? Um, and in the new building, all that is gone. So court rooms are not assigned to the same physical room every day, although they are mostly in the same place. Uh but they could be in any other room, and because of that, there is not judges do not have chambers that are connected to their courtrooms. Their offices are up on a completely different floor of the building that people can't get to. The elevator won't even go up there. Um and the court offices don't really exist. And they're the staff do not have desks in a court office. They have desks on some other floor, I think. Or maybe it's the same floor and they're in cubicles. I've only been up there once or twice and I don't remember. But the bottom line is that there's nowhere for the judge to just stand there and look at a file and talk to someone about it, right? It's all electronic now, the files are all electronic. So um because of that, there's like this sort of community space is just gone where judges can sort of actually physically point at a thing and say, like, this is what you need to do. Like and it it I wonder if any of these issues are related to just sort of this digital separation that we've created between the judge and their staff that makes it harder to communicate and harder to understand.
Teri MuehlhausenYeah. That that would make sense. So just going back to wrapping this little thing up now, like you said, Jake, these this isn't a prosecutor that were filing charges against these judges. It was a commission on judicial qualifications. So is that like an attorney disciplinary commission for judges?
Jake RigneyExactly. That is exactly what it is.
Teri MuehlhausenOkay, and what's the worst thing that can happen to them through this commission's findings?
Kassi RigneyI mean, I believe the worst they could do is potentially take them off the bench. Um, but uh anything from suspensions down to reprimands to nothing, depending on the findings.
Jake RigneyYeah, and in fact, when they announced that they were filing these two, they also issued a reprimand um against a judge, I think, out of Vigo County. Um, but didn't bring charges. They just sort of said, like, hey, don't do this again. And I think it was because that person was like a senior judge, they weren't actually an elected judge, and they probably weren't being a judge anymore. But yeah, they can they can remove people from the bench for the rest of their life, they can suspend them. Um and in in theory, these sorts of errors could also lead to attorney discipline because the judges are also attorneys. Um, although it doesn't seem like they usually do that, or they haven't done that yet to uh to a particular judge.
ICE in Central Indiana (Indianapolis)
Teri MuehlhausenInteresting. So that's the local court story. This next one is the federal government showing up in Indianapolis and the city finding out about it on social media. So IndieStar, Fox News, and Wish TV are all reporting a major surge in U.S. immigration and customs enforcement. That's ice. Um, activity all across central Indiana. I've also been on the r/Indianapolis threads and Reddit, and I've seen people posting things like unmarked SUV on Lawrence, like it's a weather report. Now, have you guys seen or heard any of this surge?
Kassi RigneyI haven't seen it in person as far as the callers and whatnot. I haven't encountered more individuals. It does not surprise me at all that that's being reported. It does surprise me that it's taken that long. Uh, considering Indiana's support for the current administration, I would have thought they would have been first in line to welcome welcome ice in.
Jake RigneyYeah, I'll tell you, through the the attorney Grapevine, I heard that they were planning on doing this in Indianapolis like they did in Minneapolis a while back. And then it kind of never happened. And so I was like, well, maybe Minneapolis went so badly that they decided to stop doing dumb stuff like that. Um and I think the truth is that what they decided was to do a smaller version of it with no publicity. Um, because yeah, I mean the government has said basically nothing about any of it, right?
Teri MuehlhausenRight.
Jake RigneyUm, but people are reporting that. Um we were actually when the reports first started coming in, I think it was Labor Day weekend. We were out of town, um, so we didn't even see it. Um but I I do think I remember seeing something about social media and then it's strange times that we live in. I'll say that.
Teri MuehlhausenNow the Indie Star reports that Governor Braun thinks that the bump is over. He said that his office got no advanced notice. And in a written statement from Mayor Hogsett, he said they received no notice to the city either. And he also called the lack of communication unacceptable, and he said that the IMPD is not participating in the federal immigration enforcement. So I see a little tension here. He's saying that they didn't call them to tell them that they're coming, but then and we had to find out on social media, but we're not gonna work with you anyway. Well, one thing that's interesting, maybe IMPD is not participating with them. I believe the Marion County Sheriff's Office rents beds at the jail to ice. So someone in town knew whether or not they upped their bed space or or whatnot, but I'm distinctly under the impression that Marion County's jail is housing individuals on ice and they're getting backed up, and there's some conflict about how long it's taking them to remove them from the county jail into federal custody.
Jake RigneyThat's interesting. Where did you hear about that?
Kassi RigneyAbout what? Them the beds?
Jake RigneyYeah, this renting bed space.
Kassi RigneyUm I don't I think that. Yeah, because there was a latest push about them not getting them out soon enough. Because it was fine for them to be there, but they're starting to, it was a headline, and that's been I mean, it was weeks ago, but yeah, it was it was some headline.
Teri MuehlhausenYeah, and then you have on the flip side, we have our Senator Jim Banks saying to the Indy Star and I think Wish TV that those who obstruct ICE operations in Indiana should be arrested and prosecuted. And we will not let Indianapolis become like Minneapolis. So in citizens' terms, like for us people living here, um, if I'm driving down Meridian Street and I see commotion on the side with some masked agents and on marked cars and maybe someone on the ground, what should I do?
Jake RigneyUh I mean you have a couple of options, right? One is you can do nothing and go on with your life. You're not obligated to assist anyone. Okay. Um, and that that may sound cruel, but it is true. Um, and not there are plenty of people who would not help you if the police had you pinned down on the ground. Um you can take out your phone and record the interaction from a safe distance. Um, you can't be getting in between them and the people that they are apprehending. But if you want to stand fifteen or twenty or thirty yards away and record it, I don't think that's illegal as long as you're on public property when you're doing it. Um if you want to post those videos on social media afterward, that's fine. Um, I wouldn't lie about it. I wouldn't falsely, you know, I wouldn't edit it to make it look worse than it was. Right. Um, because this administration has uh a penchant for suing people um for lying or even editing news stories in a way that they don't like. Um so if you're gonna publish that, I would recommend you publish all of it. But um that's that's kind of all you can do. Um go to the polls, vote. Don't vote for Jim Banks.
Kassi RigneyWell, it's one of those. What's your goal? Do you want to know that you're gonna be home in your bed tonight and not in the county jail? Then I would suggest you continue driving. Um if you want to do more, how you know you need to understand that if you interject yourself, even videotaping, even though the law says you can be on public lands and distance, that doesn't necessarily prevent you from in fact being arrested by a police officer just because charges don't get picked up um later. So um Yeah.
Jake RigneyA lot of people have been arrested and then charges just don't get filed, or people get arrested and then they get charged of crimes they didn't commit. That happens every day in this country.
Kassi RigneySo, you know, what's your goal? What are you willing to put up with? So many people think, well, I did this and this is right. Like you're not in control of anybody else. And if you how many times you get calls, well, you interjected in this process and you thought it was gonna go one way, you really didn't know. You're not in charge of any of those people and what they're gonna do, and just being aware of the risk you put yourself in when you do that.
Jake RigneyYeah, I I think people have this idea sometimes that the Constitution um provides them with security. Right. And it might in court months later, right? But they're on the street. Uh, they have guns and badges, and you might have a gun and you definitely don't have a badge. Um, like you are not going to like it's gonna end the way they want it to end. The question is whether it also ends with you with a bullet hole somewhere, and they've made it abundantly clear they will shoot people, right? Um, there are a couple of dead people in Minnesota who um could attest to that if they were still alive. Um, and others I think that have been shot and survived. Um so if if the point you want to make about what they're doing is so important that you're willing to get shot for it, then okay. But yeah, I just I would never tell somebody that that's a good idea. Right. Everyone's got someone that loves them, everybody's got somebody to go home to that's important for the most part. Um, and you know, unfortunately, Renee Goodman and Alex Pretti didn't get to go home. And they were they were doing what they thought was right. I'm not even criticizing them. But whatever they wanted to accomplish A didn't get accomplished, right? Renee Goodman was in her was yelling at them about something. They still arrested the guy they were arresting, right? Um same with Alex Pretti. It's not like he stopped them and the guy got away. They still arrested him, and those people you know lost their lives over it, which is awful. Um just not something I would ever tell somebody to do, just because you lose control of the situation. Right.
Teri MuehlhausenYou're not in charge.
Jake RigneyIt's not even in charge or not in charge, it's you're not in control. In your car driving away from them, you're still in control. Yeah. Right? You stop, you engage with them, you lose control of the situation very quickly. And you think the Constitution is will protect you in that moment, and it will not. That's not how it works. It might later down the road, but not then and there.
Teri MuehlhausenSo what if ICE is putting you into their car? What would you do? What would your yeah advice be to someone that ICE is taking it?
Kassi RigneyIf a man with a badge and a gun comes to take me into custody, he's going to take me into custody. I've seen it thousands of times. You're not gonna convince that man in that moment that he's wrong and you're right, and he's not gonna walk away. The it would be fought later. I mean, I I may attempt to try and show him my driver's license, uh, but if he wouldn't take it, then I'd wait until that appropriate time came up. And it stinks that you could potentially be in custody for a long time. But I yes, sir, no, sir, it's very defeatist, but you're not gonna win that argument on the street with uh any law enforcement, period. So I wouldn't wait your waste your breath. Oftentimes you can say things that hurt yourself, or you just sound like a child kind of having a tantrum.
Jake RigneyComply physically, right? Um, verbally, say very little. Um you do have to identify yourself, so you'll want to do that, but um tell the truth, don't say anything that you don't have to say, and uh wait till you get to a phone.
Teri MuehlhausenGood advice.
The Glock Switch
Teri MuehlhausenNow, that last answer is why we have this next segment, the Glock switch. The last episode, the house rule was four word answers, and that one is gonna stay in the hall of fame. This time, new rule same energy. Answers must start with the letter G.
Jake RigneyOkay.
Teri MuehlhausenI feel like we need buzzers or something. Um, so I have five questions, and if you start your answer with any other letter, your answer will be considered wrong.
Kassi RigneyThis is very difficult for me. I can do the talking part just off the cuff, but yeah, like counting the words. Start with the at the moment. Okay, start with everything with goddamn it. Right.
Jake RigneyI had already decided to go. Good question, Gary.
Teri MuehlhausenOkay, so five questions. Take cover. Can a police lie to you during an interrogation?
Kassi RigneyGod yes.
Jake RigneyOkay, so uh Kassi wins this round, but her answer was not completely correct. There are a few things they can't lie to you about. True. Um, like it's not just a simple yes, they can lie to you about anything they want. Like, I think it's there's like I forget how the Supreme Court phrased it, it's like constitutional rules or something.
Kassi RigneyWell, there's a case that I'm specifically thinking of and where the police were out of bounds and lying. They told a guy that there was a bomb in his house to get consent to go into his house. So that lie was found outside of bounds. They used false pretenses to of threat of safety to himself and his family to get him to consent and they entered his house on that.
Jake RigneyYeah, there's there's another one where the police told somebody like, We won't, we promised you won't get charged with this if you just admit to it. And um they the Supreme Court threw that out too. Um this came up because I had a a case with a similar sort of thing where I think the police said something like if you just tell us where the gun is, no one's getting charged with it today. And then spoiler alert, someone got charged with it.
Kassi RigneyI figured they just wait till 1201 and then charge off.
Jake RigneyNo, it's not today anymore. Um anyway, okay. Kassi wins that round. It's one to nothing.
Teri MuehlhausenAll right, next question. Remember, answers must start with the letter G.
Jake RigneyI have to go first this time.
Teri MuehlhausenCan you call the alleged victim and clear it up?
Jake RigneyGoodness, no.
Teri MuehlhausenNice, nice.
Jake RigneyOkay. Wait.
Teri MuehlhausenHow about how this one's for you, Kassi? Does a dismiss case still show up when the job runs your name?
Kassi RigneyGood grief, yes. I'm just adding an ex uh exclamation in the front. We're gonna be like old ladies. Goodness gracious! Yes, uh, it is a false idea that anything, even tickets, ever fall off your record. Points fall off, meaning they go from active to inactive, but the entry that that case existed will remain on your record until unless it's expunged, in which case it's only sealed, it's still there, it's just sealed.
Jake RigneyAnd then usually the employer doesn't see it.
Kassi RigneyYes.
Teri MuehlhausenJake ready.
Jake RigneyNot really.
Teri MuehlhausenIt's coming. Can a cop arrest you for something you posted online?
Jake RigneyGolly, yeah.
Kassi RigneyDid you choose like the the the letter of the alphabet that has the least legal words to it? Like G. I'm just sitting here, I can't come up.
Jake RigneyThese are all yes and no questions. And neither yes nor no start with a G.
Teri MuehlhausenAnd they're they're very elementary, so you have to give them.
Jake RigneyGrrrrrorrect.
Kassi RigneyGrrrrorrect.
Teri MuehlhausenOkay, one more question. What is the biggest lie people believe about their rights? Kassi. G.
Kassi RigneyThat if they're not read their Miranda warning, their whole case gets dismissed.
Teri MuehlhausenGod, if they're not read.
Kassi RigneyOh, heaven forbid, I was focusing on the substantive answer. See, that was my problem.
Jake RigneyYou gotta play the game, Kassi. I already forgot the question.
Kassi RigneyGolly G, no, Teri. Uh, they don't know anything about their rights.
Teri MuehlhausenWhat is the biggest lie people believe about their rights?
Jake RigneyGee, uh. Getting your rights not read to you means your case gets dismissed. Yes!
Kassi RigneyAlmost uh so many times, first thing out of my mind, they didn't remember my rights. Very good.
Teri MuehlhausenThat was...
Jake RigneyI think I win just because that answer.
Kassi RigneyYou do. You do. I will give it to you. That was a real sentence, not just added a G starter filler word.
Teri MuehlhausenAlright, that was the Glock Switch. And when we come back, we'll have some Floor Man.
Commercial
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Florida Man
Jake Rigneyemail address.
unknownPolice car siren...
Teri MuehlhausenWelcome back. All right, so Florida Man is up. I have a couple stories for you. And the first one we're gonna start is being reported by the New York Post, and the Lakeland police put up a video to support this reporting. So we have 27-year-old Florida man. He's cruising down Highway 33 in the middle of the night and he hits a construction setup. Now, if your first decision after the crash was to run, what would be the second decision to make this Florida?
Jake RigneyWrestle an alligator for his four-wheeler.
Kassi RigneyOh, what does Florida Man do while running? Strip off his clothes along the way?
Jake RigneyI don't that's a good call. That is actually very Florida man. Yeah, well Do you know Florida man? Like that's ...
Kassi RigneyI have been to Florida.
Teri MuehlhausenSo Florida Man, when he takes off after hitting that construction setup, he takes his two kids with him into the swamp. A two-year-old and a ten-month-old.
Jake RigneyJeez, I thought the two-year-old was bad.
Teri MuehlhausenTen month-old. He drops them and keeps dropping them. There's drone footage, there's body cam. One of the two-year-old he left behind that he had the cops had to go get.
Kassi RigneyJesus Christ, those kids are lucky to be alive.
Teri MuehlhausenOne of them was smurged under the water as he's dragging.
Jake RigneyEvery Florida man is lucky to be alive. And most Florida children are lucky to be alive.
Kassi RigneyThose poor kids, they they just sound like little tasty little popcorn chicken for uh a big gator in there. That's a nightmare. That is horrifying.
Teri MuehlhausenYeah. So what do you charge him first? For the running or the dropping, or does the the order of charges matter?
Jake RigneyUh if it were in Indiana. Well, uh, so did the kids uh die or get hurt?
Teri MuehlhausenThey did not die. I don't think any of them went to the hospital with serious injuries, but surely there were some mental stuff and maybe some scratches.
Jake RigneyYeah, no, I'm just thinking like, did any of them actually get eaten by an alligator?
Teri MuehlhausenNo.
Jake RigneyOkay, so in that situation, if it were in Indiana, Florida man would get charged with level six felony resisting and level six felony neglect of a dependent. So they would be of similar um offense. And and they would depending on how it got charged, they might be prohibited from getting both convictions due to double jeopardy.
Kassi RigneyAnd someone would report them to DCS.
Teri MuehlhausenYeah. Yeah. We got one more Florida man.
Jake RigneyThere's another, there's another one.
Teri MuehlhausenThere's just one more because this is something I think people should uh take away with them um and maybe change their lives when they stay in a hotel in Florida. Um, so true crime news and local 10 are reporting this one out of Florida. So a couple checks into their hotel, like Jake , Kassi, you check into a hotel in Florida, and uh it's at the end of the day, so you close your blinds and you lay on your bed and you go to sleep.
Jake RigneyOkay.
Teri MuehlhausenAnd at about in the middle of the night, Kassi, you feel something moving. But then you're too tired, so you go back to sleep. About 6 :30 and the morning comes, you feel another move, and you're like, This is the bed. But it stops, so you just go about your day. You get ready for the day, like it's 7: 45, and now you're ready to leave and you're looking around for all your missed belongings, and you look under the bed, and there's Florida Man under there.
Jake RigneyYeah.
Kassi RigneyYeah, you're going, yeah...
Jake RigneyI see this one coming.
Teri MuehlhausenYeah, just chilling under the bed the whole time.
Jake RigneyYep.
Teri MuehlhausenNow, what what would you have done if
Jake RigneyI would have gotten my own hotel room so I didn't need to sleep under someone else's bed. Uh you mean what would I do if there was Florida Man in my hotel room when I woke up in the morning?
Teri MuehlhausenLet's say if you are in Florida and you're sleeping and you get woke up by a strange move, would you go back to sleep?
Jake RigneyUh yeah, maybe.
Teri MuehlhausenMaybe?
Kassi RigneyIt kind of depends on what it is. I mean, it's so this situation there's been hotel rooms with people coming in. Sometimes a car doesn't get changed.
Jake RigneyUm I wake up a lot.
Kassi RigneyI mean, other than just doing a proof protective sweep of your hotel room, um, I mean, uh it doesn't seem like that person had any ill will towards those people. Not that that doesn't make it criminal potentially to be in their room. But I mean, certainly if they wanted to do harm, they had plenty of opportunity before to check out. Right.
Jake RigneyYeah, that's just uh weird. Like what did he do when he was discovered? Did he just run?
Teri MuehlhausenIn fact, he stayed there until until the police arrived on scene and he's still under the bed.
Jake RigneyJust refused to get out?
Teri MuehlhausenI don't I don't know if he refused to get out, but I know that's where he was by the time the cops got there.
Jake RigneyThey still they just found him just taking just chilling out under there.
Kassi RigneyAnd that sounds kind of like a maybe a mental illness or substance abuse issue going on. Yeah. I mean, my first thought was that that was a pretty good place to run and hide. If you're fleeing from the cops, if you could get in someone else's hotel room and under their bed, that'd be a pretty good place to hide.
Jake RigneyThere's a Florida man number one from the guy who left his top.
Kassi RigneyThey left the dollar and then ended up under the bed.
Teri MuehlhausenYep. Well, that's it for the desk
Outro
Teri Muehlhausentoday.
Jake RigneyThank you, Teri. And uh thank you, everyone else, for listening to Tales from the Brown Desk, all four of you. Um please remember, while we may discuss legal issues and provide information regarding the law to our listeners, we do not intend to create an attorney-client relationship with any listener. Our advice may not be applicable to some legal issues. Please consult with an attorney you have hired to review your legal situation before you attempt to apply the things we have said to your case. Tales from the Brown Desk is produced by Rigney Law and Teri Muhlhausen. If you want to ask a listener question, email Teri at Teri@talesfromthebrowndesk.com. Our podcast has a website. It is that cool, you guys. So cool. It's a website. Amazing. I it's weird to me I even have one website. Apparently I have two. Even weirder. Anyway, entitle your email podcast question, and we'll read it on our next podcast. Make Teri's job easier, please. We like all have kids now. I know we have we all had kids back in season one as well, but whatever, I don't need you fact-checking me. Just do it. Buzzsprout says this episode will get 183 downloads. Episode two of season two suffered a significant decline in listeners. Uh from like 100 down to like 38 or something like that. I didn't check the YouTube numbers, it might be more like 40 or 50 or something, but uh but somehow Buzzsprout still says this one's gonna do even better than that one, which makes no sense. I don't think they're actually paying attention. No. I also don't think they're listening. They're not listening. Uh but our newest faraway listener is in Miami, Florida.
Teri MuehlhausenIt's Florida man.
Jake RigneyIt's a fifty percent chance that it is a Florida man. So hello in Miami. Uh Bienvenidos, Amyami, please don't sue us, Will Smith, for stealing a line from your song. Please also don't come here and slap the shit out of us. We would appreciate that as well. The attorneys at Rigney Law do not comment on their current pending cases. Nothing we've said in this podcast is a comment on a case we are currently working on, even if you are Will Smith and committed a battery on television with 80 million witnesses. Which I think was a record. Like it's just in sheer number of witnesses to a crime as it was happening. Pretty sure Will Smith slapping the shit out of Chris Rock was like the world record.
Teri MuehlhausenPossibly.
Jake RigneySo congrats, Will. Well, congl congrats, Chris. I don't even know. Anyway. Bye bye.
Kassi RigneyBye.
Teri MuehlhausenBye.
Jake RigneyJake Rigney
