Tales from the Brown Desk
Our biweekly criminal law podcast, Tales from the Brown Desk, is brought to you by Rigney Law LLC and Teri Muehlhausen. Tales from the Brown Desk is a free flowing conversation involving two foul-mouthed criminal defense attorneys. It may include graphic descriptions of sexual activity, violence, and traffic law. It may not be suitable for children. Listener discretion advised.
Tales from the Brown Desk
Tales from the Brown Desk - S2,E4: Indiana’s New Anti-Doxxing Law, ICE Jail Beds, Glock Switch & Florida Man
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Indiana didn’t invent a crime called doxxing. It folded the idea into the intimidation statute, and the difference matters.
Season 2, Episode 4 of Tales from the Brown Desk. Indianapolis criminal defense attorneys Jake and Kassi Rigney sit down with Teri to walk through Public Law 146-2026, the anti-doxxing change that took effect July 1. The bill started as its own offense and ended up inside Indiana’s existing intimidation law after lawmakers’ home addresses leaked during the late-2025 redistricting fight, followed by swatting calls, threats, and unwanted pizza.
We cover what “post,” “social media platform,” and “personal information” actually mean under the statute, why two pieces of information matter, and why the penalty jumps when the target is a member of the General Assembly. Then the hypotheticals: posting an address with no threat, “someone needs to teach this guy a lesson,” calling someone’s job, sharing public records, deleting the post ten minutes later, and where political speech ends and a charge begins.
Also on the desk:
The ICE leftover from last episode: IMPD and the mayor aren’t doing street-level work with ICE, but the Marion County Sheriff’s Office is housing detainees and honoring detainers under a long-running U.S. Marshals contract. WTHR records showed 800+ ICE detainees from January through mid-September.
The Glock Switch, house rule edition. Every answer has to include a dollar amount
Florida Man. She asked him not to do that in bed. It became a felony question.
This is general legal information, not legal advice. Listening does not create an attorney-client relationship. The law changes, and every case is fact-specific.
Website: https://www.talesfromthebrowndesk.com
Firm: https://www.rigneylawindy.com
Questions for the desk: teri@talesfromthebrowndesk.com
Listener discretion advised. 18+.
#IndianaLaw #Doxxing #CriminalDefense #GlockSwitch #FloridaMan #TalesFromTheBrownDesk
THE CRIMINAL LAW PODCAST
TalesfromtheBrownDesk.com
Intro
Jake RigneyIt's Friday afternoon. We've locked the door because well, not for any particular reason. I just deserve it. I don't have to have a good reason to lock the door. It's my damn door. I can lock it if I want to. And also because it's time for another edition of our bi-weekly podcast, Tales from the Brown Desk. I'm Jake Rigney of Rigney Law LLC. With me as usual is my law partner, wife, and human smoke machine, Kassi Rigney. Teri Muehlhausen is our host, manager, editor, co-producer, topic selector, Florida man monitor, email screener, and glock switch point forward giver. That is the most important of all those titles, by the way.
Teri MuehlhausenIt is.
Jake RigneyThat's right, it is. Friendly Reminder: Tales from the Brown Desk is a free-flowing conversation involving two foul-mouthed attorneys. It may include graphic descriptions of sexual activity, violence, and references to deathcab for cutie lyrics. It may not be suitable for children. Ben Gibbard. Ben Franklin. Benji, that dog from the 80s movies, do you guys remember him?
Teri MuehlhausenHe's so cute.
Jake RigneyHe is dead now.
Teri MuehlhausenOh. Heartbreaking....
Jake RigneyThat's right. He is dead. You will also be dead one day. So maybe go outside and enjoy it while you can, dear listener, while you last. Not until it lasts. Remember, because it will still be there. You are the one that is dying. Please do uh finish listening to this podcast first, though, of course. My ego cannot handle rejection for any reason. And also, here's Teri.
Teri MuehlhausenHi, Jake. How are you?
Jake RigneyI'm okay, Teri. How are you?
Teri MuehlhausenI'm pretty good. Hi, Kassi. How are you?
Kassi RigneyHi, Teri. I'm well.
Teri MuehlhausenThat's
Indiana's Anti-doxxing Law
Teri Muehlhausengood. So last time we talked about pepper spray in jail resulting in a felony, judicial misconduct, ice, glock with a G, and floor demand. This time there's no appellate case, but there was still a reading assignment because we're going to cover a new Indiana law and ice discussion left over the Glock switch and floor demand. Are you two ready?
Kassi RigneyI'm ready.
Jake RigneyI am once again ready. Spoiler alert, everyone. We recorded this on Wednesday and screwed it up. And so now it's Friday and we're doing it again.
Teri MuehlhausenThat's awesome. So that's good. Now we're gonna start with this new law because it deals with something a lot of people have heard of, and that's doxing.
Jake RigneyYeah.
Teri MuehlhausenDid you know on July 1st of this year, public law 146-2026 or Indiana's anti-doxing law became law?
Jake RigneyLet me let me tell you this, Teri.
Teri MuehlhausenYes.
Jake RigneyPlease do not quote public laws to me.
Teri MuehlhausenWhy? It's it's it's the name.
Jake RigneyI can't look it up. So here's the thing: the public law is just the name of that particular bill after the governor signed it, right? Um, and so they exist every year. They get the numbers start over every year. And so if you tell me, what about public law 143? I'm I'm like, what year? I don't know anything about that public law. Give me a code citation and I will look it up. But public law means almost nothing to me. Thank you at least for putting the 2026 in it. So at least I know it's this year's public law 251. I don't read all those, man. I don't know. I don't have any idea what's in it unless you give me a code section. So sorry, people call me and they're like, tell me about public law three, and I'm like, it's got a three in it. That's all I know.
Teri MuehlhausenSo are you guys familiar with this new anti-doxing law?
Jake RigneyI am because we read it and we did a podcast episode on it, and we didn't air.
Teri MuehlhausenOkay, so when people hear that Indiana has this anti-doxing law, they probably assume that Indiana created a crime literally called doxing. Is that what happened?
Kassi RigneyNo, they added uh doxing behavior to the intimidation code section.
Teri MuehlhausenAnd then also from my understanding, the bill started as a standalone doxing offense, but somehow it got folded into Indiana's existing intimidation statute. Why would something like that happen?
Jake RigneyWell, um they probably did that because they feel like doxing is a form of intimidation, right? That that's the point of it is to intimidate or bother the same way intimidating someone bothers them. Um so that's my guess, right? It's this sort of alternate form of intimidation that's different than just threatening someone. That's what the Indiana intimidation statute really is. It's just illegal to threaten people.
Teri MuehlhausenOkay. And do you guys know why Indiana thought they needed this type of law?
Kassi RigneyI think some representatives got doxed.
Teri MuehlhausenYeah.
Kassi RigneySo immediate action had to be taken, and oh, surprisingly, was successful.
Jake RigneyYeah, yeah.
Teri MuehlhausenAnd now let's talk about what counts as personal information. Uh-huh. Um do you know what the law encompasses with that?
Jake RigneyI think the statute says it's like their name, their address, their phone number.
Kassi RigneyEmployer, employer address, phone number. It may say social security number, but it may not be there because that's actually covered in a different section of the law already, independent of this.
Teri MuehlhausenNow, this law defines the personal information as two or more pieces of that information that using two or more shared.
Jake RigneyOh, okay. So only one and you didn't break the law.
Teri MuehlhausenRight. So I'm wondering like, would that fall under some other it like intimidation? Like, I don't know.
Jake RigneyNo, that's interesting. So, like, if I said uh here's the junior senator from Indiana's phone number.
Teri MuehlhausenYeah.
Jake RigneyThat wouldn't be a good one.
Kassi RigneyWell, another one I'm thinking here, defendants' name and phone number, sometimes their phone number, their name and address is just available on my case.
Jake RigneyThis is gonna be a Glock switch episode where you're gonna be like, answer this question with while only providing one of the prohibited things under the doxing statute. And I'll be like, um
Kassi RigneyWell, it where I was going was if just directing someone to say, hey, you know, directing them to where it's posted, not posting it themselves. Because you know, anyone can go and look up a defendant's name and presume home address, at least that's on file with the court.
Jake RigneyRight, but that depends on how you publish that, right? If you just post a link and say, here's this info, you are publishing it the same as the person that originally published it. On the other hand, yeah, like if you take the role of attorney's website, anyone can go on there, look up any other attorney's name, but their addresses are not always on there. And it's often their office address if they're smart. It's not their home address.
Kassi RigneyRight.
Teri MuehlhausenSo to help listeners kind of better understand the law that went into effect, I have a couple real-world hypotheticals for you guys.
Jake RigneyOh, this is okay. Law school all over again.
Teri MuehlhausenYou know, you you sound so excited, Jake.
Jake RigneyI loved it the first time, so this second time's gonna be great.
Teri MuehlhausenThere's there's no uh pass fail here.
Jake RigneyI already failed. I know the answer.
Teri MuehlhausenAll right. Hypothetical number one. Fred gets into an argument with someone on Facebook. So he finds their home address and he posts it with the caption, here's where this guy lives. Is that a crime?
Kassi RigneyI believe that you need to look at the surrounding conversation details. This is where circumstantial evidence would be reviewed, and a screening prosecutor would just have to make a judgment call on whether what they think the intent was there. Um, certainly there are circumstances where such a veiled threat could be charged, but it is very vague. So I think there are also circumstances that it may not be.
Jake RigneyYeah, what Kassi's kind of getting at is that I mean, they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt why you published it, right? And if they can prove through whatever means they find that you intended for you know the person to get harassed, um, then it's a it's a crime. Um so you know, when Fred talked to the police about it, why did Fred say he posted it? Right, when Fred when they took Fred's phone and searched it, did they find other conversations Fred had about what he was doing and why? Right? Um, so it if I I am not a city county council member, but if I am a city county council member and I get into a heated argument with someone from someone else on the city county council, right? It it's possible that I might post their private phone number because I want people to call them and bug them. It's also possible that I might do it for some legitimate reason related to what I was doing, right? Um, especially when the idea of what counts as posting is so broad, right? If I send it in a group chat to five different people on Facebook Messenger because they need to contact him about legitimate business, that's not intimidation, right? That is just me giving this person's phone number to people who are going to use it for something important. Um and it doesn't matter that we argued, right? But if I go on my Facebook page and I'm like, Jim Green is a total douche canoe and everybody should bug the hell out of him for the next three weeks because of the way he just voted. Here's his phone number. That's probably illegal.
Teri MuehlhausenHow about this one? Okay. Chad post a name and a number of someone and says everyone should call this guy and let them know what they think. Kind of what just what you just said.
Jake RigneyYeah, it's still that's it's still tough, right?
Teri MuehlhausenBecause it might be different if this person was a politician or if this person was uh just a normal citizen, right?
Jake RigneyRight, absolutely. Um the First Amendment protects political speech um much more strongly than other kinds of speech. So if this is a private person and what you really want is everyone to call him up and accuse him of being a child molester, right? That's gonna violate the statute. If what you really want is everyone to call this person up and tell him not to vote for house public law 104-2026. Well, I mean, that's political speech. Um, and I mean, there's a legitimate purpose for that. If you tried to apply the statute in that way, I mean, there would at least be an argument about whether that was unconstitutional as applied to that particular defendant.
Teri MuehlhausenWhat about this one? Someone posted something that others could take offense to, and then someone took offense to it, so they identified that person's employer and made a post and tagged them online to try to make the employer have accountability.
Jake RigneyYeah, this has happened a bunch of times, hasn't it?
Teri MuehlhausenIt has. It's kind of like this citizen policing other citizens. Like, is that a crime?
Kassi RigneyWell, again, I guess it it comes down to the intent and what evidence there is of intent.
Teri MuehlhausenWhat if you intend to get them fired?
Kassi RigneyWell, um that's not bodily injury, property damage, or necessarily a crime. Harassment's a crime, but I'd need to know more that those facts are those the facts you've given are are incomplete. Yeah.
Jake RigneyUm call ball state and tell them that they should fire Jenny.
Teri MuehlhausenThat happened recently. I don't know if her name was Jenny.
Jake RigneyIt it wasn't. I think that's why I used it, but yeah, there was a teacher at Ball State or some sort of employee at Ball State posted about Charlie Kirk after Charlie Kirk got killed, and um she is now suing. I think she even I think it's over and she won.
Teri MuehlhausenI think you're right. Now, was she intimidated? Like what...
Jake RigneyUnder the normal language of the statute, or of under the normal language would she have been intimidated, yes. But did it violate the intimidation statute? Probably not. Um because it's not uh likely to cause bodily harm, it's not likely to result in her being the victim of a crime. Um now the thing about it is is that I mean she might feel differently about that, right? She might feel like she was very likely to have been the victim of a crime, and maybe she was. I don't I don't know. I haven't talked to her. Um but so it it just depends on sort of what everyone's reaction was and what the state can prove people intended to do, right? We see this sometimes on Facebook with like the let's make this person famous too, right? Uh-huh. Let's make him famous.
Teri MuehlhausenGive him his 15 seconds.
Jake RigneyI originally saw it when they would they would the police would post pictures of like people standing on the American flag or something like that. Um as though that was the kind of thing that needed to cause people to get harassed or something. Um Yeah, it a lot of times it's gonna depend on how hard it gets investigated and what they find. Yeah, they can get a search warrant for your phone and it's not too hard. Um, so you know, if you're gonna do something like that and you don't want to get caught, you know, you probably don't want to have a bunch of evidence about what about the harassing you were hoping would happen on your phone.
Teri MuehlhausenYeah, so when um a case like this gets filed, does the person the one that allegedly committed the crime are are their uh devices automatically going to be searched?
Kassi RigneyI mean, if the warrant is issued, they may that may have already happened as part of the investigation. I would actually expect that in a crime like this. When you're talking about intent, it's very rare that you get someone saying, Well,
Jake RigneyI hope I hope someone burns their house down and beats up their dog.
Kassi RigneyYeah. As in uh you know, it's intent by circumstantial evidence is pretty common.
Teri MuehlhausenNow, what happens if Chad doxed somebody here in Indiana? If he doxed you, Jake, what could happen to him?
Jake RigneyUm well, I I think it intimidation goes up to a level five felony. It usually starts at an A misdemeanor, I think. And then if the threat is to um cause to commit like a serious forcible felony or something like that, then it moves up to a level six felony. So it's it's um it's either a high misdemeanor or a low-level felony. It could possibly carry prison time. Um jail time is possible on a misdemeanor. Um, it would depend a lot on what county it was in, what judge it was in front of, what the person's criminal history looked like, but it could get it could get medium serious. They're not gonna spend the rest of their life in prison, but they could go.
Teri MuehlhausenUm, so if you're a prosecutor bringing one of these cases, how would you prove intent? Like how do you prove what's going on in someone's head?
Jake RigneyYeah, I your your question kind of draws me to this point that um... People don't often understand real well, which is that the state can prove their case any way they want. They can try, right? So anything that they can get through the doors of the courthouse can be an exhibit, right? In theory, they can probably even offer exhibits that are too big to get in through the courthouse by putting them somewhere and making the court go out and look at them. Um and you know, any other thing they can find, right? So they're gonna get the records from the platform that you posted the thing on. Um that's pretty common. Most detectives know how to write a subpoena to Facebook, Snapchat, etc., whatever one it is, to get proof that a thing was posted, right? Um they could search your phone, they could um also have recordings of things you've set. Like, there's just any way they can think of is a pop, you know, is possible evidence. Um, we don't tend to focus on like here's what kind of evidence they'll present, or here's how they'll prove it. What happens is during the discovery process, the state gives all of this to the defense attorney, and then we look at it and ask, do we think they can prove it based on what they gave us? Right. So we don't spend a lot of time thinking like, how do they prove that or how will they prove that? What we do instead is we wait until they give it all to us, and then we look at it and say, can they prove it?
Kassi RigneyHave to explain that to people, like, hold on, where we it's defense. We got to see what they're bringing. That's what matters, not what you hype, you know, they don't have this, they don't have I, you know, slow down. It's defense... it's their job to prove, but any any they can use any admissible evidence that they think is relevant. If it's not, we can fight that out in front of the judge.
Jake RigneyRight. To use a a football analogy, like the question you're asking is like, Jake, you're playing the Chicago Bears. What kind of defense are you gonna run? And I'm like, what kind of offense do they have? Like, I don't do they have five wide receivers, then I'm probably gonna run a bunch of cornerbacks out there. Do they have a fullback, two tight ends, one wide receiver, and another fullback? Well, then I'm probably gonna have five defensive linemen and a safety, you know, and and four linebackers, right? So um when when you're doing criminal defense, the point is not like here's how I'll win. It's what do they have? What can they prove? And that's that's sort of how we look at it.
Teri MuehlhausenThat makes sense. Now let's say somebody makes a stupid post and realizes that they've gone too far and they delete it 10 minutes later. Did they commit a crime?
Kassi RigneyIf the threat was communicated and the information was posted... the appropriate information was posted with the intent, yes, the deleting wouldn't matter.
Jake RigneyYeah, regret is typically not a defense. Um believe me, a lot of people regret. In fact, almost everyone regrets um the crimes they commit. Um, that's one of the things that I think a lot of people, you know, we get into this black and white view of criminal justice, right? There's us normal folks and there's criminals. Right. Um, and you know, I don't care what he thinks, he's a criminal, right? And the truth is that people are not like that. Um, and you work in this job for any amount of time, you discover that people charged with crimes are pretty much exactly like everybody else. Um there's not some weird, evil, different thing about them. Um they almost all universally regret what they did and regret it before anyone tells them they have to. You know what I mean? Or that they ought to. Like they don't need to be sent to prison for ten years to be made to regret what they did. People understand generally that what they did is inappropriate long before they ever get arrested for it. But that's not a defense as much as some people wish it was.
Teri MuehlhausenCan the fact that somebody deleted their doxing post become evidence and used against them?
Jake RigneyYeah, I mean in theory it could, right? Um especially if they did something even dumber, like after that, post something else that says, like, oh, sorry, lost my mind there for a second. I shouldn't have done that. That's illegal.
Teri MuehlhausenI was hacked. Yeah.
Jake RigneyWell, I was hacked is different. That might be a defense. Yeah. And look, that might be a defense. And people do get hacked.
Teri MuehlhausenThen you gotta prove the hacking.
Jake RigneyMy cat had a Facebook page and it got hacked. Now I don't want to confuse everyone because my cat has a political name. Um and the real politician has not been hacked as far as I know. But my cat is now like posting in Hindu or something. Like I don't I don't even know what language it is.
Teri MuehlhausenUm that's funny.
Jake RigneyLike, yeah, and I I think that someone from Iran like hacked it and then they can use it because it's not that's them, like, or something. I don't even know. I just know I can no longer access my cat's Facebook page. Pour one out for tiny little black manx, Joe Biden, who cannot who cannot post on Facebook anymore.
Teri MuehlhausenNow, what about this one? Say somebody made a doxing post and it comes across to your feed and you share it because 5,000 other people did, and you're just passing information on along.
Kassi RigneyYou also want to be cool.
Teri MuehlhausenYeah, and I want to be cool and get on the bandwagon and act like I know the newest stuff, so I pass it along.
Jake RigneyVirtue signal.
Teri MuehlhausenYes, virtue signaling.
Kassi RigneyUm now you can now you've committed crimes just like all your cool friends.
Teri MuehlhausenOh, geez. Yeah, that's...
Jake RigneyJust as illegal as being the original poster.
Teri MuehlhausenEqually wrong?
Jake RigneyWell, wrong is different than guilty.
Teri MuehlhausenTrue, true.
Jake RigneyRight? Um, you are equally guilty, yes. Um, is it just as wrong? I mean, yeah. I can't think of a moral reason why it wouldn't be.
Kassi RigneyCriminal litigators generally parse into two questions. Like, are you guilty? And then what what do you do about it? Kind of how guilty are you, how culpable are you? So, right, you know, if you're leading the charge versus maybe you know, got caught up in the moment, you know, both are guilty, but that could be a very justifiable reason why people charged with the same crime would get a different sentence.
Jake RigneyYeah, which happens.
Kassi RigneyEvery time. Every single time.
Teri MuehlhausenOh, what if someone posts one piece of personal information like Jake Rigney with intent to cause bodily harm, but not two pieces of personal information?
Jake RigneySo, I mean, if all they post is my name, then that's not a threat. And if it's not two pieces of personal information, then it's not enough to qualify under the intimidation statute. So that's probably not illegal.
Teri MuehlhausenWhat if it says kill Jake Rigney?
Jake RigneySo assuming that I have any reasonable chance of receiving that communication, right? Um that uh is a threat on its own and qualifies as intimidation under the regular subsection A of the the previous intimidation statute that still exists. It is illegal to threaten to kill people in Indiana. It's a felony because murder is a forcible felony. Now there has been some interesting case law about conditional threats, right? If you do A, then I'll do B. Um and so it's important to remember when we're talking about threats that the threat has to be to do something unlawful, right? So saying I will kill you is different than saying if I find you raping my wife, I will kill you. Right? Because I'm allowed to kill you if I catch you raping my wife. Sorry, Kassi.
Teri MuehlhausenShe'd appreciate it, I think.
Kassi RigneyWell, and you're only allowed to uh attack the person until he's done raping or can no longer be a threat. So you better get him killed quick. Because otherwise, yes, it could be overkill, right?
Jake RigneyIt it could be, although...
Kassi RigneyAlso heat of the moment, I guess.
Jake RigneyYeah, it it depends on a lot of different factors, but you also have to keep in mind that um, you know, the the prosecutors making charging decisions are human, and so there are some things that they'll look at it and say, well, this might technically be overkill, but we're not gonna charge a person with this, right? Just like you know, I don't think there's any specific exception in the murder statute for the guy that throws the death penalty switch, right? It's something I thought about because I've been listening to the stories about the the lady in Tennessee, right?
Teri MuehlhausenPoor lady.
Jake RigneyYeah, yeah, it's just terrible. Um but so like there's no exception in the statute that says the you know the the hangman or the axman or the firing squad or the guy who throws the switch on the electrical chair uh can kill someone. Right? So technically he's breaking that law and committing murder. Um there's no self-defense question about it, so but no one's ever been charged with doing that because the prosecutor has discretion to make decisions like that and they don't.
Teri MuehlhausenInteresting. I have another hypothetical here before we move on. Let's say Chad he doesn't like someone, so he goes out on this research mission to see if he can find any dirt on the person he doesn't like. He was successful because the court records in Indiana are public, and he found that the person he doesn't like was convicted, arrested, and convicted of domestic violence. So he Chad makes this little social media post, tags this guy and tags the employer because it's uh it's a prominent uh business, and with the intent that maybe this will get this guy fired. Is that a crime? Or is Chad just being an asshole?
Kassi RigneyI honestly don't believe that that's a crime. I mean, it it before social media, believe it or not, um, angry exes, uh uh it wasn't uncommon would call the police or call an employer and alert them to publicly available information like that. It doesn't sound like that was a call for others to take further action. It was more of an alert. It's it's a you know, it's a jerk thing to do, um, and then further to do it publicly, but I'm I I'm not convinced that what you described is actually a criminal act.
Jake RigneyI know the answer to this one, and it is my wife is correct.
Teri MuehlhausenThat's the answer to a lot. So what is we're wrapping this one here up. What is the biggest misconception you think people are going to have about this law?
Jake RigneyI would love to pretend that I understand people well enough to answer your question, Teri. But I do not understand people, so I d I don't I really don't know. Um, I mean I guess I imagine what'll happen is we will get calls from people saying, you know, Steve doxxed me, man. I wanna I wanna charge him with a crime. And then I have to be like, I can't charge anyone with a crime, only the county prosecutor can call can charge someone with a crime. And they'll be like, but how do I do that? And I'm like, well, you call the police, and then the police tell the prosecutor, and then the prosecutor decides what to do. I already called the police and they said they can't do anything. Then we can't do anything.
Kassi RigneyWe also get the calls of just complaining that so-and-so called and said I said this, and can they do that? Can I get charged? And statements of the accused is excluded from here say you can be charged based based on that. Um, a lot of people don't understand that the process is to determine if the state has proof. That's what trials for. So oftentimes like they haven't proved, they can't prove they haven't proven, like they haven't proven anything yet. But you know, they just have to clear a low hurdle to start the process. And that's where where he's like, even if you're right, you know, if you gotta hire an attorney, you've got to go through that process.
Jake RigneyYeah, and I can imagine somebody saying something like, you know, what about free speech, Jake? Right. We're supposed to have free speech. And you know, my response to that is the same as it has been for a while, which is that that right is not absolute, and it never has been. Um, it was they started trampling on it almost immediately after they signed it. Like the Constitution was signed in what 1787 or something like that. George Washington was president for eight years, and by the time John Adams was president in 1797, they passed the Alien Sedition Act, which made it illegal to say anything bad about the government. Like they didn't even wait 10 years.
Kassi RigneyOh, yeah. You know, this brings to mind there was a insulting a police officer. I found that on a really old police report back when I was a baby prosecutor in the aughts. It was something from maybe the 60s. Like that used to, it was a crime.
Jake RigneyYeah, to insult a police officer. That doesn't surprise me. Um, freedom of speech is not absolute. Um, and the government is generally not terribly concerned about whether they are infringing on it or not. The um, especially the non-judicial parts of the government. Right. Right now, the judges ought to care a little bit, and sometimes you can get them to do something about it, but the rest of them, I mean, they don't this is just the truth. They don't care that much. The police do not care about your First Amendment rights. Um, that's why they get mad when you record them. Because that's a First Amendment right, too, but that doesn't stop them from getting mad. Also doesn't stop the legislature from trying to prevent you from doing it by making regulations about it, right? They've made it so that you have to be a certain distance away or something like that. They're trying to write statutes that go right up to the line and infringe on your speech just enough, uh, right up to where the court won't throw the statute out. Um, because they don't really care very much about free speech.
Kassi RigneyIf they wanted to respect your rights to peaceful protests, they'd drag your limp body away when you're just sitting there instead of spraying you in the face with mace and then dragging you away.
Jake RigneyThere's there's video of that, right? Of them just spraying peaceful protesters before they drag them away. Yep. Was that the the one per or the 99% stuff?
Kassi RigneyThe uh it's it's common. That's that's the meme that's that's common or the gif gif or whatever, but it's it's a common tactic that's gone on, and it's it's because that that's an obvious disrespect for your constitutional rights.
Jake RigneyYeah, and it's not, you know, it's not uh it's not a new thing. Like I said, 1797 or something like that.
Teri MuehlhausenNot new. All right, so
Marion County Sheriff Working with ICE
Teri Muehlhausenfrom a constitutional amendment to immigration enforcement, all because we left something hanging in our last episode. We talked about who's actually working with ice here in Indianapolis. So let's clean this one up. The short version is IMPD and the mayor are not working with ice, but the Marion County Sheriff's Office is.
Jake RigneySpeak for yourself, man. It's like half my life.
Teri MuehlhausenWTHR pulled record showing that they've housed 800 plus ICE detainees from January through mid-September of this year. Do you guys have any comments on that?
Kassi RigneyWell, one I'm glad my memory was correct that that they did have they were cooperating because I think the first part I said that that I thought they had the peace of mind it does bring me is that it's been an ongoing agreement for what is pretty common and went on long before, which was more for financial uh support and utilization of the facility and not a specific support of current ICE action.
Jake RigneyKassi is pleased to discover that Kassi was correct.
Teri MuehlhausenThat'd be pleasant.
Jake RigneyBut there's there's something else that I guess it's kind of important for you to understand. And um it what you need to keep in mind is that the way the federal government has handled these things has changed. And as a result, the way the sheriff's office is then forced to handle it has changed, right? It used to be that ICE did not put a detainer on everyone that went into jail. I had plenty of clients that got charged with low-level offenses and they were undocumented, and ICE didn't bother and they got out, you know, um, because there wasn't a detainer. There wasn't a hold placed on them. So even if the sheriff's department isn't doing anything different than they've done since the 90s, the federal government is doing things differently, putting detainers on everyone who gets arrested for anything, including silly stuff like driving while suspended or operating having never received a license. Which, by the way, they made it illegal for anyone that isn't a citizen to get a license. Um well, anyone who's undocumented, I don't think, can get a driver's license in Indiana. So if they're gonna drive a car, um, you know, eventually they're probably gonna get pulled over. And so because of that, things are working differently, even if the sheriff is saying, well, it's you know, it's just the same contract we've had since the 90s.
Teri MuehlhausenThat's interesting. I did not know that.
Jake RigneyYeah, you gotta think about like all the different gears of this government that how they all work together.
Teri MuehlhausenYeah, the thing is, is there are so many gears that they're not obvious, and it's like a swamp and you don't realize it until you s step in one and now are trapped.
Kassi RigneyThis is why law school is three years and costs six figures. Reading reading comprehension alone will not get you there.
Jake RigneyYeah, we we struggle um with folks sometimes who think they can they can do our job for us, right?
Teri MuehlhausenThey're cute, aren't they?
Jake RigneyNo,
Teri MuehlhausenNo?
Jake RigneyNo, I wouldn't say they're cute. Um they are either mildly annoying or extraordinarily annoying, depending on how forcefully they want to argue about it.
Teri MuehlhausenOr competent they think they are.
Jake RigneyYeah, well, it's not it's just not even a question of competence or incompetence. Um because like you...
Kassi RigneyI don't understand why people get so offended. Like if you were told you're not a surgeon, would you get personally offended? Like I'm telling you that you're stupid. No, like that's a that's a fact, right? You're not a surgeon. So to tell someone you're not an attorney and the reaction is is just quite shocking. It's it's not the uh uh uh place a child was led to believe that you know an attorney in a community is respected or thought of.
Jake RigneySpecial, yeah. Um, it's so it it's not even right, and it's not even the I'm a lawyer. Like to become a lawyer, you go to law school for uh you know three years if you do it full time straight through, and then you pass a really difficult test called a bar exam in most most places. Um and those are all hard, but three years worth of law school classes is with the studying is maybe a thousand hours. Maybe right? Um like maybe forty hours a week for nine months and uh okay, it's more like three or four thousand hours, something like that. I mean it's of of actual time I spent working on it. Right? And then with a bar exam, you maybe add another five hundred hours in or something like that for 16 hour test. Um, and you know, you've spent maybe 1,500 hours working on it, something like that. That's about the same as a year of working 40 hours a week. Right? I've been a lawyer for 22 years.
Teri MuehlhausenWorking more than 40 hours a week.
Jake RigneyMost of the time, right? So not only did not only are we lawyers, but we have decades of experience with how this works, and you cannot replace that even with law school.
Teri MuehlhausenRight.
Kassi RigneyWell, and just reading through law school, you have to have you still have to know how to put what you're reading together, and without the guidance of the instruction, the way that that goes. I mean, a lot of people don't realize you have to have a special degree to teach law school.
Jake RigneyBeing a lawyer and understanding how the government works, it's like I I feel like I learned about 1%, maybe 1% of the things that make me good at this job are from law school. Like even people who've gone to law school or who have their law degree are not qualified to tell somebody who's done the job for 20 years what it's like.
Kassi RigneyWell, I think we've heard we've seen uh uh an appellate ruling where it seemed very obvious that Jake and I are both criminal litigators, and that who wrote that they the judicial officers missed the point you know, missed the issue, got off track. And it's just, I mean, that's why most lawyers specialize in something. Um, that uh even lawyers don't don't see things the same. And once you get really experienced in something, another attorney's not going to be able to walk in, no matter how experienced they are in what they do, and be equivalent of the person who's done that particular area of the law.
Teri MuehlhausenRight. Kind of like doctors and their specialties. You don't want your your eye doctor doing your open heart surgery. No.
Kassi RigneyTechnically they could, but that's not a good choice. Right. Maybe technically they couldn't. I don't know.
Jake RigneyI'm not even sure. I don't think they can. Not a surgeon or an eye doctor, but I think they have to have like admitting privileges to do surgery in a hospital, and to do that, they probably have to have convinced the hospital that they're capable.
Kassi RigneyWell, surgeons also specialize, so maybe just even an eye surgeon versus a heart surgeon.
Teri MuehlhausenRight.
Jake RigneyYeah.
The Glock Switch
Teri MuehlhausenSo we've gone from a constitutional amendment to immigration detention. So naturally, there is only one place we can go from here to the Glock switch. Uh we've already done four words. We've done starts with a G. Today's house rule every answer has to include a dollar amount. You ready? Ready. Take cover. Who's going first?
Jake RigneyKassi.
Teri MuehlhausenKassi's up.
Kassi RigneySure.
Teri MuehlhausenIf the cop says we already know what happened, should you fill in the blanks?
Kassi RigneyA hundred dollars. No. I have no idea. How would you...
Jake RigneyHow would you work money into that?
Teri MuehlhausenI don't know, but it I...
Kassi RigneyThose are trick questions. I mean, if you're just gonna pull random questions out, I'm just gonna throw dollar amounts into my answers. You know, you didn't you didn't qualify it, then it had to make sense or be relevant.
Teri MuehlhausenNo I didn't.
Jake RigneyYou'll save yourself somewhere between a thousand and fifteen thousand dollars if you don't.
Teri MuehlhausenNice.
Kassi RigneyGood job. Excellent.
Jake RigneyThat was pretty good. Yeah, I know I had a lot more time to think about it.
Teri MuehlhausenYes, you did. Okay, so Kassi, you get more. Time to think about this one. Jake, you're up.
Jake RigneyOkay.
Teri MuehlhausenDoes locking your phone with a passcode stop them from getting in?
Jake RigneyUh depends on whether you buy the $80 piece of crap phone or the most expensive iPhone that costs about $2,000, I think.
Teri MuehlhausenNice.
Jake RigneyAnd I'll explain why. Yes. IPhones are much more difficult to crack, and their technology is often changing, and it is difficult for the police always to catch up. The police technology that can crack your phone without your password is less likely to work on the newest iPhone than it is on anything else.
Kassi RigneySide note when you are presented with a cell phone search warrant, turn over your phone, regardless of the way the question is posed by law enforcement regarding your passcode. The search warrant does not require you to give them your passcode. You give them your passcode, that will be considered consent.
Jake RigneyYeah, never give them your passcode unless you want them to search your phone.
Teri MuehlhausenIf they ask for your passcode, you can remain silent, right?
Jake RigneyAbsolutely. There is an Indiana, and I think there's even a there's a U.S. Supreme Court case on that. Yeah, it is um you you cannot be compelled to provide your passcodes even by court order.
Kassi RigneyOur advice not to cooperate with interviews with the police. Distinct and separate, we you should cooperate with the service of a search warrant. The argument to be had there is in the courtroom.
Teri MuehlhausenAll right, who's next? Kassi?
Jake RigneyOkay. Yeah, because I nailed that one. Nailed it.
Teri MuehlhausenYes. If you were only holding it for your friend, does that matter?
Kassi RigneyIt doesn't matter if it's a $10 rock or a $10,000 kilo. If you are holding it, you are possessing it. And that's why it's called possession, not ownership.
Teri MuehlhausenNice. This dollar one is too easy. I gotta get harder.
Jake RigneyWe've gotten we've got a pattern down for how to how to be.
Kassi RigneyJake cracked the formula, so we got you now.
Teri MuehlhausenHe did. Wait until I change up the rules mid-game.
Jake RigneyThis is why we have Kassi go first, because then I can scheme over here for a minute.
Kassi RigneyI don't mind embarrassing myself. We expect me to fall flat on my face anyway, so not expect.
Jake RigneyWe just enjoy watching it.
Teri MuehlhausenAlright, Jake, you ready?
Jake RigneyOkay.
Teri MuehlhausenIf you stay silent, can they use that silence against you?
Jake RigneyNo. But it does slightly increase the chance that you'll be paying between $1,000 and $15,000 to a lawyer to defend you.
Teri MuehlhausenAlright, last question here, Kassi. This one's yours. Does I didn't know it was illegal ever work?
Kassi RigneyIt shouldn't matter if you have a $10 lawyer or a $10,000 lawyer. Uh that should never work.
Teri MuehlhausenOkay, guys, we switched gears, we switched topics, and probably switched off a few brain cells along the way. So we're gonna take a quick break, but don't go anywhere because when we come back, it's time for that one segment where absolutely nothing surprises anyone. Florida Man.
Fake Commercial - Movies with Dogs
Jake RigneyToday's update on Florida Man is brought to you by Movies with a dude and a dog in it. Just listen to this trailer. In a world where people have lost touch with their humanity, one town found hope in the unlikeliest place. The heart of man's best friend. That dog. Oh, that's Duke. Grown up as a pup on a marine base. Growed up to be a bomb-sniffin' dog in Afghanistan. Saved his whole unit 29 times. Lost a leg fighting a Taliban in Antarctica.
Kassi RigneyOh, where's his owner?
Jake RigneyOh, no one owns Duke. Or maybe we all do. I mean really, maybe the truth is that Duke owns us.
Kassi RigneyLook out! It's a Taliban with an RPG! Duke did it again! We're all saved.
Jake RigneyMiramax Pictures proudly presents Good Boy, starring Branning Potato as Uncle Carl, and introducing Pippin the Chihuahua as Duke in theaters this Friday. Miramax Pictures now 100% Weinstein-free. This movie is not real. Do not go to movie theaters looking for it.
Florida Man - Please don't do that in bed
Teri MuehlhausenAlright, welcome back to our Flirtoman segment. I have one for you because I generally don't know how it is so easy to go from please don't do that in bed to a felony.
Kassi RigneySo that's very, very easy.
Teri MuehlhausenWell...
Jake RigneyIt only takes one figure. I can barely...
Kassi RigneyAn inch, an inch and a half. A couple seconds.
Jake RigneyWhoa.
Kassi RigneyVery, very easily. That's a whole nother show. A good time to high fellow.
Jake RigneyYou are you do not understand how people work. Oh man.
Teri MuehlhausenOkay, so according, this is reporting from Yahoo News. There was a Florida couple in bed. And Florida woman asks her, Florida man, please don't fart in bed. That's a reasonable request. Or is Florida already too far gone?
Kassi RigneyWe're the age of Dutch oven. I mean, it's it's impolite. But I don't think that that should be criminal.
Jake RigneyI don't think it's too much to I don't know. Is the person awake? Like that like you can't help it if you fart in your sleep in mind. You know what I mean?
Teri MuehlhausenLike just be a conscious.
Jake RigneyJust like everything else, we need a little more context before we can say who's right and wrong in this scenario.
Kassi RigneyIf you can't fart in your own house, where can you fart? I mean, what kind of America are we living in?
Teri MuehlhausenAlright, so Florida man did not think that this was a reasonable request. So he calls her a name. Now, are there any names that can get you from a bad argument to a police report?
Kassi RigneyWell, it depends on the parties involved. It shouldn't.
Jake RigneyBut it does. And in Florida, more often than not, or more often than than everywhere else. But yeah, it shouldn't.
Teri MuehlhausenBecause he called her name, she spits on him.
Jake RigneyThat's illegal.
Kassi RigneyThat's a crime.
Teri MuehlhausenFlorida Man didn't appreciate that. If she does that here, did she yeah, did she just commit a crime?
Jake RigneyYes. Battery by bodily waste, which is a level five felony and punishable by up to six years in prison.
Teri MuehlhausenWell, Florida Man took the law in his own hands and right there in bed put his two hands on her neck and dragged her off the bed and began to strangle her. She had to bite him to get him to stop. Is the bite self-defense?
Kassi RigneyThe bite sounds like self-defense the way you put it, but potentially not. It's a second-to-second evaluation.
Jake RigneyYeah, so there's this weird thing with self-defense where you can't have been committing a crime. And and the reason that's there is so that you can't like claim self-defense and shoot and kill the homeowner after he tries to shoot you because you broke into his house. Right. So like the or the guy who robs a liquor store. You can't go into a liquor store, try to rob it, and then when they fight back, shoot them and say it was self-defense. Right. Um so this has an element of that, and it probably depends a little bit on how much time is passed, but when she spit on him, she did commit a crime. And if she is continuing or evincing an intent to continue or attempting to continue to do that, then uh biting him wouldn't be self-defense because she is committing a crime while she's doing it. So maybe not. But maybe.
Teri MuehlhausenNow, last one before we leave this bed. If both of them get charged, who would have the cleaner story? Would it be the spitter or strangler?
Jake RigneyI'm not sure what you mean by cleaner story.
Teri MuehlhausenEasier story to defend.
Jake RigneyNeither of them are clean.
Teri MuehlhausenNo.
Jake RigneyThey're Florida people.
Kassi RigneyThe one th the other the bigger question, uh the state generally needs to pick one or the other because they have a real trouble when they get in this situation. Because how do they prove if they both are charged, how do they get the other one to take the stand against the fur them going to trial? So they're probably gonna tr pick whoever they think's the worst of the two and try and flip the other one.
Jake RigneyOr they don't charge the other one. Yeah. And a lot of times it's the person who commits the first crime. So it wouldn't surprise me. I mean, but then there's also this weird sexism that often comes along with domestic violence cases that also sort of pushes it in the other direction, right? So she committed the first crime. So a lot of times, if it were two men, they would say, Okay, well, you committed the first crime, we're gonna charge you, we're gonna not charge the other person. Right. And to sort of flesh out what Kassi was talking about, the reason when it's just two people and there are no other witnesses and no other evidence is that if you charge both of them, they both have the right to remain silent. And then the state can't call any witnesses. Right.
Teri MuehlhausenThe silent trial.
Jake RigneyRight. And if they can't call any witnesses and they don't have any other evidence, then they can't prove a case. So usually they're picking one or the other. We've seen this occasionally where the state tries to charge both sides of a fight like that, and it um it usually doesn't go very well for the state one way or in at least one of the cases. Um there is a way they can get around it, but it's real risky and it usually doesn't work. Um they typically don't even try to do it by forcing use immunity on somebody because they can do that. But then there's also this weird sexism with domestic violence cases where almost universally, when there's a dispute between a man and a woman, the man goes to jail. Um they almost never arrest the woman. I'm not saying never. I have seen ones where they arrest the woman, but it is ninety percent, I'd say probably, right? 90% the man gets arrested no matter what they say.
Kassi RigneyI I would agree. Unless the woman has documented history within the system of being aggressive or having a violent background or something like that, they're going to to charge the man.
Jake RigneyYeah, I mean, occasionally the the woman will tell a story that is so outlandish and there is no supporting evidence, like you know, she'll say he bit me 52 times, but she doesn't have any bite marks on her, or they might say, Okay, you're lying, you're the one going to jail. But if they don't know who did it, and most of the time the police don't really know what you know, who did it or who acted first and who was defending themselves. Like I mean, it just usually they'll take the man. Um and I think that's mainly because statistics suggest the man is a lot more likely to come back and kill the woman than the other way around. I'm not saying it's right or it's wrong. I think that's just a very difficult part of their job.
Teri MuehlhausenSo that's the bed, and I think we've learned everything we need to learn this week.
Jake RigneyWe've learned too much, Teri. Just like every week.
Teri MuehlhausenTwice.
Jake RigneyWe've learned too much twice.
Outro
Jake RigneySo thank you, Teri, and thank you, dear listeners, for listening to Tales from the Brown Desk. Please remember, while we may discuss legal issues and provide information regarding the law to our listeners, we do not intend to create an attorney-client relationship with any listener. Our advice may not be applicable to some legal issues. Please consult with an attorney you have hired to review your legal situation before you attempt to apply anything we said to your case. Tales from the Brown Desk is produced by Rigney Law and Teri Muhlhausen. If you want to ask a listener question, email Teri at TERI at Tales from the Brown Desk.com and entitle your email Podcast Question, and we'll read it on our next podcast. If it's extra stupid, you get imaginary bonus points. You might win the Glock Switch contest next week. But I doubt it, so I'm gonna be trying very hard. Buzz sprout says this episode will get a mere 33 downloads. Damn, Buzz sprout. Wearing me out, bro. Episode three of season two showed slight improvement over episode two, which doesn't surprise us because we also hated episode two.
Teri MuehlhausenWe did?
Jake RigneyWait, you didn't hate episode two? The flock episode? Oh my god.
Teri MuehlhausenOh yes, no, I did I did. Thanks for taking me back there.
Jake RigneyJust we'll just call it the flock episode. We hated it. Sorry. It was important. We didn't like episode two, and we're the ones who birthed it. So, um but now Buzzsprout says we're gonna do way worse. I don't think they use math. I think they just ask Florida man what he thinks. Our newest faraway listener is in Baku in the province Baku City. Kassi, do you know what country Baku is in? I don't. It is in Azerbaijan, which is extra hilarious. Because I told you this two days ago as well.
Kassi RigneyI did not remember that information. Believe it or not, in all of my years of education, I've never taken a geography class ever.
Jake RigneyI have a journalism degree, and so they make us take geography so that if we become a world affairs reporter, we know where these places generally are. So I happen to know that Azerbaijan is a former province of the Soviet Union, down in that southern sort of Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan region. It's actually on the Caspian Sea, which is the largest, uh the largest freshwater lake in the world, I think, or and uh it's saltwater, but it's the largest landlocked body of water in the world or something like that. Um here's the thing about Baku, though, it's so old that its name is literally translated it's just God's city. Like they literally just named it after God. Wow. But before the spread of Christianity, the god that they were worshiping was actually a pagan goddess named Ashtarte. And then the Christians showed up, and Saint Bartholomew and the rest of them in the 5th and the 6th century convinced everyone in Baku that Ashtarte was really Astaroth, a demon. Oh. Who ingratiated herself with the population of Baku by giving them diseases and then present pretending to cure those diseases?
Teri MuehlhausenEvil.
Jake RigneySo hilarious. Like, as usual, one very pro-patriarchal worldview shows up and decides that any woman worth worshipping was obviously a demon.
Kassi RigneyObviously. Why do you even have to teach these people that?
Jake RigneyObviously, only a god has to be a man. Couldn't possibly be a woman. But second, this is why I'm bringing this up, not just because I want to educate you guys. Um, this the scam that Astarte was running on the people of Baku, according to the Christians, is the same sort of scam that the legal marketing website Avvo is still running very successfully on lawyers today. They created a website, they used web crawlers to basically grab every lawyer's contact information out of the Indiana Role of Attorney's website and then put all that information on their website. Then they used SEO search engine optimization to push their website up to the top of everyone's list when they search for a lawyer, and then people click on this website, and they go and they try to find lawyers on it. And that's how Avvo makes money. Because they make the lawyers pay for their profile to show up outside of a very small radius of their office. And they make them pay to keep other lawyers' ads off of their profile. Avvo created the disease so they could sell you the cure.
Teri MuehlhausenOh, America.
Jake RigneyJust like Ashtarte supposedly did, or Astaroth supposedly did, back in Baku City. Why are people in Azerbaijan listening to us? I don't know. But that's awesome. Thanks for listening. Here's the great thing about Avo, their last public valuation was in 2015 and came in at $650 million.
Teri MuehlhausenWow.
Jake RigneyYeah. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Especially since you consider I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church's valuation is quite a bit higher.
Kassi RigneyOh, we hate Avvo, we especially hate Avvo because we fell for their bullshit twice.
Teri MuehlhausenTwice?
Jake RigneySo not for very much money, but it we tried it out, it didn't help.
Teri MuehlhausenBut now you know.
Jake RigneyWe paid a small amount to learn that lesson. Maybe it's worked for some other people. I'm not so I don't know. I have to be careful about calling it a scam. It's the same scheme.
Kassi RigneyWe tried it, we learned from our experience. We won't make the same mistake.
Jake RigneyThe attorneys at Rigney Law do not comment on their current pending cases. Nothing we have said in this podcast is a comment on a case we are currently working on, even if you are Avo and we don't like you. Take care, everyone.
Kassi RigneyBye.
Teri MuehlhausenBye.
