The power of listening

For the final episode in the series, Abbey and Mike round up with the most important thing we can do to support others - listening!

startwithin.co.uk

Transcript

Mike O’Hara 0:01
Hi everyone, it's Mike here at start within and welcome to the happy employee podcast. I'm joined today as always by Abbey, and today we're gonna talk about the power of listening but before we get into that, we just wanted to thank you guys for all of your positive feedback I think you've got a little more on the kind of response we've had to some of our recent episodes yeah

Abbey O'Hara 0:32
yeah so we want Episode 12 of the podcast which is crazy to think that we started this back in March just thinking let's have a little chat over a cup of tea, see how it goes. And in fact, we're here in Episode 12 we've had some amazing guests from

Mike O’Hara 0:49
a crazy journey,

Abbey O'Hara 0:50
it has, and we reach so many people so thank you so much for our listeners So, not just in the UK but you know Canada in the US, the Caribbean has India, Philippines Australia. Yeah, so so many people weren't expecting this at all but it's so flattering but also positive to know that you know mental health is something that's been addressed worldwide and

Mike O’Hara 1:19
yeah it's really encouraging isn't it and I think it's been a time when it's been at the forefront of the agenda with everything that's been going on and rightly so, but it's really encouraging to see that everybody's bought into looking at mental health in a positive and upbeat way as well. And I think we've had some specific feedback that we wanted to share with you guys

Abbey O'Hara 1:38
so just to go through a couple of them on our return to work anxiety episode we had some really lovely feedback from Stu saying how much it resonated with him, and how much he was concerned about that return to work and, and how much the episode helped him.

Mike O’Hara 1:55
Yeah, and that's that's the best feedback we can get really is genuinely helping people. Yeah,

Abbey O'Hara 2:00
we had a few different comments about Caroline's story about burnout and Jay found it really interesting and we had some really nice feedback from Ellie again how much she resignated with it and how much she felt it was similar to her own story and stopped me to think about things too. And we also had some feedback from Mandy he's actually at hard of hearing, and talking about how we could transcribe the podcast so more people can access it, which thanks to Mandy and her help we now do so we're now providing full transcriptions. So even more people can can read the podcasts or listen to it easier to so that's great, thank you so much for that Mandy, And then I think my favourite bit of feedback ever is on our embracing diversity episode. Richard had to mention it and yeah and it's from Anastasia. And she said, How does one podcast cover Beyonce, Theresa Mays dancing, racism diversity in the workplace introversion power, gender, gender bias in tech and science and meeting politics, all in 30 minutes.

Mike O’Hara 3:07
Yeah, we've had some really fantastic response to Richard's podcast certainly in a lot of special guests that we've had on. And I think we're really fortunate as well. Aren't we in the upcoming in the future. we've got a lot more amazing guests lined up as well.

Abbey O'Hara 3:21
So this is the actual final episode for series one. But as myself, we're definitely going to be coming back. Even more guests. If you also have any ideas that you'd like us to cover or know someone that might be a good fit to speak on the podcast or even yourself, or even have a story, please do get in touch because we love hearing from everyone. So, the power of listening.

Mike O’Hara 3:46
Yeah, I thought this was a good topic to kind of round off on for Episode 12 so the last episode in the first series as you just said there Abby. Because, listening, in my view, is possibly. In fact, probably the most important thing we can do to support somebody who might be living through mental health challenges of any description, so it seemed appropriate to finish on this for the first series because it's run through every episode we've done really as a constant thread and it always will when we discuss mental health. It's not always something that we immediately think about listening I think we take for granted that we do it and that we do it well, but more often than not, we don't actually.

Abbey O'Hara 4:28
Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that I find most interesting is when I did the Mental Health First Aid course is that it highlights that we aren't actually taught to listen. We know how to talk, and how to walk and all those things but no one actually teaches you how to listen.

Mike O’Hara 4:45
Yes, I've got the specifics on that here actually from Mental Health First Aid, England, and the study that they take from Swanson in 1994 actually I must credit the actual study that it comes from. And it basically tells us that we have different modes of communication which are writing, reading speaking and listening, and then it has our years of training in each of these kinds of modes of communication so for writing we have 12 years of training and how to learn to write for reading it's six to eight years for speaking it's one to two years, but for listening, it's zero to half a year's training. As such, on listening itself and if you could then compare that with the percentage of time that we actually use those modes of communication, we write for 9% of our time and we're communicating. We spend 16% of our time reading. 30% is speaking, and 45% is listening, so it's the largest percentage of time that we use that mode of communication. But by far and away we have the least training on it and I think that's really telling a really powerful statistic. And when we apply that to supporting someone with their mental health as human beings, we will do it I certainly still do it now, despite the kind of training I've done. We're so keen to leap in and find a solution for somebody's problem to tell them what they should or shouldn't be feeling to tell them about our experiences to tell them how to fix themselves, but actually what I have found, and what we would always advise is that we take that time to actually stop and listen and listen properly because only that way can we get to the heart of what that person's trouble might actually be.

Abbey O'Hara 6:25
Yeah, so I guess maybe like a practical example of that would be if my car had broken down, and I came in and told you my car's broken down and you said okay, let's get a new battery, even jump in and you wouldn't provide a solution or your own opinion, you'd have to ask the right questions first you'd have to go through it with me listen to what would happen, what do I experienced to then be able to help me figure out what to do with the car.

Mike O’Hara 6:52
Exactly. Yeah, and that's something perhaps you would do without thinking but when it comes to someone's mental health and perhaps it's a sensitive subject or something, perhaps, we're not quite as comfortable with, but we're very keen in our intent to help somebody. I think we can be quite guilty of as I said jumping in and not truly understanding what their experience has been and for something like anxiety, we then we immediately try and jump in and try to think well what is it you're worrying about. And as soon as we land on something that we think that person might be worrying about we make our own conclusions we probably overstep the mark, and then try to tell them how to solve it, and how we would solve it, and why not to worry about that thing. And that's when we're guilty of probably not applying empathy, which is something that we're going to go on to talk about a little bit later in the podcast.

Abbey O'Hara 7:37
So how can we learn to listen them we don't get any training in schools on how to listen we just get told to be quiet while other people are talking.

Mike O’Hara 7:45
Yeah, I think it's something that we think about as not having to actually do anything and it's such a passive thing and we can passively. Listen, but I would say that's more like hearing than listening, listening is something that's active and that's the distinction that we have to try and make. And there are a few kind of top tips that I can provide to help you to take the right approach when listening to somebody, because ultimately what we all want to do is to be there as comprehensively as we can for somebody that needs our help. So some of the things that we can think about doing immediately so the first thing is to make yourself available and truly available. So an example I always give in my training is that you might be heading into a meeting and five minutes are busy, an important meeting you're very busy and somebody comes up to you and says actually if you've got time to have a word there's something that's I'm struggling with or something that's troubling me. And I think it's a better approach in that situation to actually say look, I want to listen to you properly. I want to hear everything you have to say. I'm heading into a meeting right now, but I've got an hour and a half later in the day that I can keep free for you. So, it might not be that we have to be available, 24 hours a day seven days a week for people because that's just not practical. And also we have to think about our own self care as well with that. But it's about making that person feel like you want to be truly available for them, and that you're genuinely interested in helping them

Abbey O'Hara 9:03
been shut down.

Mike O’Hara 9:05
Yeah, exactly. Because if you say to someone. Okay, what is it, and then you're constantly looking at your watch you're flicking through your phone you're checking an email I mean, another example I was give, and I think a lot of people will have experienced this particularly those who work in a busy office environment. How many times have you spoken to somebody and they actually continue to type, while you're talking to them, they might be looking you in the eye and kind of nodding at the right time. But you can see that their fingers are still going to complete that email because they just can't bear to spare that little bit of time to listen to you,

Abbey O'Hara 9:35
not even turning around from the chair like talking over their shoulder, body language is so important.

Mike O’Hara 9:42
Yeah, and I think the other thing that we all experience, whether at work or not is that person who's still on their phone while they're talking to us or while they're listening to us rather. And again what so I can all contact. Yeah, appropriate eye contact, certainly, which you

Abbey O'Hara 9:58
don't think about you think listening is, is, yeah, that needs to engage with your eyes as well.

Mike O’Hara 10:03
Yeah, and there's those nonverbal cues as well which was the kind of second point I was going to go on to actually is just nodding at the right time maintaining appropriate eye contact and not constantly staring at somebody, but at the same time, helping them to feel like you're engaged in it by maintaining that eye contact with them. Adopting, and a welcoming and open posture. So not sitting directly opposite someone you can sit side onto somebody so it's not so intimidating, maintain an appropriate distance and also something that can be quite comforting for people when you're listening to them is to kind of try and mirror their body language as well. You'll notice that if you're talking to somebody and you lean forward, they will typically lean forward. If you sit back in your chair they'll sit back in their chair. So, I think trying to adopt a fairly neutral posture that's open and welcoming so not having your arms crossed across your chest or leaning away from them in your chair like you're standing standoffish is really important just to build that initial rapport. And then what you'll find is, once that person starts to open up all this kind of stuff will probably happen fairly organically and fairly naturally. But being available. Definitely is really, really important.

Abbey O'Hara 11:12
And it's important to not go the opposite way as well not lean too far in you don't want to be invading their space you might be trying to seem enthusiastic and like you're listening but like you said it still needs to be neutral yeah and a comfortable, comfortable for both of you.

Mike O’Hara 11:27
They'll probably give you the clue that you're leaning in a bit too much as they start to lean the other way. And they slowly make it an exit towards the door. Some people don't know since. It sounds silly and it sounds like something that we probably all think we do but it can just help to relax the atmosphere, help somebody to articulate what they're feeling a little more freely. So availability nonverbal cues and then I talk about verbal cues as well. This is something that I've had to really work on myself and listening to people, because I'm confident that I'm listening to somebody, but I will adopt a fairly blank expression,

Abbey O'Hara 12:04
and not say a great deal. You don't reply to me when I talk to you exam don't even nod, but you don't say, Yeah, sometimes you just need a mic, I might be going into a long speech and talking but I just want to hear that. Uh huh. Just anything to know that you're still in the room

Mike O’Hara 12:21
with something we've found quite difficult when recording the podcast as well because you would just look at me with an alarm expression on your face, as if to say, am I saying the right thing. Do you agree with me, and I do but, yeah, it gives someone that validation again just to help them feel like you involved in what they're saying and you genuinely care so it can just be a Yep. Okay. Again, sounds simple, perhaps some of us do it naturally, but for those that don't try and work at it and try and make it appropriate as well. So they're a few of the kindness. Exactly, yeah you're a good listener. So they're some of the kind of practical things that we can put in place. Actually, the other one that I would say, and this is something I think I am a little better at sometimes is using silence to our advantage. And this is something that I think can be so powerful when listening to somebody, because when we think about talking to someone around their mental health, it's very rarely going to be something that they're wholly comfortable in discussing particularly if it's the first time they've brought this to someone's attention. As I've said before, leaping in and try to fill that awkward space with words and trying to put words in that person's mouth can actually be a kind of a negative outcome on that conversation because that person who's drummed up the courage to speak, doesn't actually get the chance to voice their concerns. I always make reference to Louis Theroux when I talk about this if you watch his interviews, he watches documentaries. He's the master of this, because he will ask his open ended question often quite a probing question, and then he'll just leave that awkward silence and he's very very comfortable with it. And you see what typically happens, that person then has to fill that awkward space, they open up about what they're feeling what their experience has been, and then he can then follow up and the conversation flows from there. I know that in your experience training as a counsellor that's something that quite. That's quite a big part of that process as well. You doing it now.

Abbey O'Hara 14:26
Yeah, definitely because, yeah, exactly like you said that Libya to readers. You went into listen you don't want to push people to talk you want to give them their time to think things over in their head as well. So it's, you don't understand how powerful, just being silent with each other is, and it can also build the relationship as well if you feel comfortable being silent with, with the other person. And suddenly people rush to fill any awkward silence but then you're actually stopping what the other person might want to say that if that makes sense.

Mike O’Hara 14:59
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think it's, again, a really simple technique but something that we can try to actively employ, as opposed to just be passive when we're listening to somebody.

Abbey O'Hara 15:10
I think a really important thing to think about when we're listening as well, is that it isn't just that being silent, you can talk to listen. You can ask questions that is all part of the listening process as well as he said they're asking the Open, open questions and paraphrase and when you do when they do respond as well.

Mike O’Hara 15:31
Yeah, so with open questions, essentially an open question is something that doesn't just elicit a yes or no response, because that again doesn't give somebody the chance to process what they're thinking and to expand on what they're really feeling as well. So, it could just be something simple like. That sounds like it's been really tough for you. Can you tell me a little bit more about that, as opposed to, are you feeling sad, which is a yes or no. Yeah. And I think we're quite quick to do even when we just greet people. We say, how you doing okay everything okay and then we kind of do that thing where we're just trying to kind of race through those formalities even sometimes and actually, If we said, how's everything been recently. It just gives that teammate again with a little bit of silence. The right body language and again it puts people at ease and helps them to open up and with the paraphrasing, that's a lot to do with validation so it shows that you listen. That you empathise and again we're going to talk a little bit about empathy very shortly. And also that you understand, and you can use paraphrasing teamed with a follow up, open question so you could say, it sounds like you're really struggling with homeschooling with the two kids. Your husband's away at work, it sounds like it's been a really tough time for you. Can you tell me a little bit more about that and what might help moving forward. That's an example you could give us perhaps an employer who's got an employee who's struggling at home at the moment which won't be unfamiliar to a lot of us who are listening today. And so it's just summarising what they've said, and then teaming up with an open question to see what would help. What I would say on that last point is that as a first line support for somebody who is struggling with their mental health. That is probably the limit of what we should be offering, so that we don't overstep the mark into the counselling space because for the majority of us, we're not going to be clinically trained we're not going to be trained as a counsellor, so it's about just listening to understand, as opposed to trying to get to the heart for more serious kind of mental health issues that's when we should be looking to signpost to professional support

Abbey O'Hara 17:37
and just important to remember as well that we're not there to fix things we're just the listening, exactly whether it's an employee or a friend or family member whoever it is,

Mike O’Hara 17:49
it's genuinely the most empowering thing we can do for somebody I feel. That's a personal opinion but my own experience having had that help I'm very lucky to have that kind of support, in my own personal struggles with mental health and also the people that I've now been subsequently lucky enough to support as well. You see it as a real kind of moment of awakening for a lot of people that finally are being listened to, and I can't understate how powerful it is.

Abbey O'Hara 18:20
So you mentioned empathy. And there are a couple of TED talks that I think really demonstrate the importance of empathy. And the first one is from Kevin brakes.

Mike O’Hara 18:31
Yeah, Kevin was a patrolman a sergeant in the US police department and he was predominantly tasked with patrolling the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, which is some of our listeners may be aware, is a hotspot for people travelling to attempt to take their own lives. Kevin was called out I think over 200 times in his career to people who actually climbed over the railings and were intent on tempting to take their own lives. And I think only two actually ended up. Unfortunately, taking their own lives by jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge, all of the others were rescued able to come back over the railings and Kevin puts that solely down to the power of listening. He would be called out he would attend and his first instinct wouldn't be to try and convince that person to come back over to try and physically. Drag them back over the railings or anything like that he would go and he would spend time talking to them, but predominantly allowing them to tell their story and why they felt like they're in the position where they would have to unfortunately attempt to take their own life, the TED talk is about 15 minutes long, it's so powerful and he puts everything down to this position of empathy, by trying to put himself in the shoes of that person who is so distressed who is in such emotional pain that they can't see any other way out. And if we can take that example to highlight the power of listening, then we can easily apply those concepts to our everyday life and to supporting those around us whether it's at work or at home.

Abbey O'Hara 20:01
Yeah. Yeah, it's a really touching story. Yeah. And the second TED Talk is by Rene Brown, and that one is all about empathy, I think it's actually just called empathy. And it's just explaining what empathy is because I think I was like this as well, often get confused about what the difference is between sympathy and empathy and why empathy is so important and we mentioned that I have. I do counselling courses. And it wasn't until I was doing those courses that I felt. Yeah, I get this I understand why I don't feel like I've ever been listened to maybe or what, why did why do we do that why do we synthesise, and I think this short video is a really good way of explaining that, you know, if I went to you with a problem and said, I feel really down today. I don't want you to say, oh, be okay. Is that sympathy. Yeah, I want you to say, yes, that's pretty rubbish, and I want you to agree with me which maybe people don't do, because they feel that that's not being sensitive and that's not the right thing to do but that's empathy you're listening to me. You're, you're putting yourself in my place in my perspective and we don't always need that solution we just want

Mike O’Hara 21:18
to be listened to. Yeah, I think it can be a confusing distinction for some and it's worth noting that when people do sympathise it's not because they don't care, it's because they're perhaps just taking on that approach that doesn't help you feel as as supported and adage worse probably actually slightly patronised I would say, but sympathy she breaks down really as an empathic empathic response will never start with at least, whereas a simple sympathetic response will do so. Well, you could say well I'm really down today but I'd say well, at least. You've got a job, or at least you've got home at least you've got your health, that doesn't actually help you to feel better with what you're struggling with right now, whereas an empathic response might be. It sounds like you're having a really tough day today, and then that's when I would encourage those who are supporting somebody to say, Can you tell me a bit more about that, because again, that shows empathy, it shows that you're trying to understand, and you're trying to put yourself in their shoes. And I think the example she gives this that somebody might be stuck down hole sympathy would be shouting down to tell them how rubbish it is that they're stuck in a hole, whereas an empathic response would be to get down into the hole with them and to kind of live that with them.

Abbey O'Hara 22:25
Just from the same empathic there. I think something else to highlight is it empathic or empathetic.

Mike O’Hara 22:32
So I've been on this journey with mental health Mental Health First Aid training trauma risk management, I still have absolutely no idea which is the right term to use. I've looked at the dictionary, I've asked some of the leading industry leaders on this. I tend to go empathic, but naturally we probably go to empathetic because it's similar to sympathetic I would say that as long as we're being empathic or empathetic, don't worry too much. And the other thing she says, which is really important in that short video and I would encourage people to watch is. It's on YouTube and it's in a kind of cartoon format isn't it as well so it makes it more kind of accessible and friendly. She says that actually an empathic response might even be. I don't even know what to say. But I'm so glad that you told me, and I think that's, again a really powerful insight into what empathy is it's just trying to put yourself in that position, you might not have experienced it yourself, but you can show that you want to understand and you want to live it with that person. It's just that feeling of being listened to, to break it down to its real kind of component parts.

Abbey O'Hara 23:37
So definitely check those out and we'll put the links to those on the website as well. And so I think for the final part of the episode. Just like to round up and think about if you are a manager or in the workplace, or in HR or wherever you are, think about why we should be listening to our employees and how we can use that to listen to our employees.

Mike O’Hara 24:02
Yeah. So, in this kind of era of remote working one of the things that I know we both advise to those that we've worked with around looking after the employees, has been sheduled in kind of check ins, so it could be on zoom or teams or whatever it is that you're using. And it not strictly being around work tasking, or even if it is a meeting around work spending the first five minutes, just asking, how is everyone doing. And then we can use that silence, we can employ that open question, and allow people to actually voice, how things are for them and to sit and to listen. The, the body language stuff that we talked about is even more challenging in that kind of format but we can still do it. So I think just facilitating the actual opportunities to listen is even more important now that we're all working apart than ever before. Yeah.

Abbey O'Hara 24:52
And then I think a higher business level as well. There's so many tools that we do that we use now such as engagement surveys to ensure that you know everyone's happy in their role, what do they think of management team you know all these different things, which is great and you've got the heart stats and the data there. And, but I think it's. First of all, we've those I think it's really important to address it so it's all very well asking the questions but you need to let people know that you're listening to what they're saying. And you don't want to just do it for stats sake and have the stats there you need to send those out those communications and let everyone know that we've heard you and this is what we're going to do take action from that, and that's empathy,

Mike O’Hara 25:36
you know it's putting his saying we've listened we've kind of put ourselves in your shoes, see it from your perspective. And that's really powerful in terms of keeping people happy in the workplace,

Abbey O'Hara 25:46
and I think it's really important to recognise that even if you can't make those changes, maybe one of the big things on the agenda is, I don't know, learning and development, and you might not have the budget for that but it's important to still let the employees know we know, we know that this is what you want to focus on, we're doing what we can it might not be now, but we're looking at how we can do that in the future, even that is is valuable in itself because people know that you still know that it's on the agenda and that you've listened to what they've said,

Mike O’Hara 26:16
or they've landed on a really important point actually that we probably could have covered earlier on when we talk about how to listen. is that, showing vulnerability yourself and showing personality and honesty and authenticity is actually really important as well you don't want to feel like the person listening to you is some sort of listening robot, you if somebody does make a mistake or if I do jump in and interrupt you. If I then say, I'm really sorry for that sorry I shouldn't be interrupted please carry on. I want to listen, those little things can actually really show that someone's genuinely interested so like you said, even if the solution isn't there right now that you can provide in a kind of business sense. At least you're acknowledging the concerns and saying, we'll make our best effort to try and passionate when we can it just shows that kind of human touch which I think sometimes we often lack.

Abbey O'Hara 27:03
Yeah. And then my second point was, again going to be on the, the human touch so these engagement surveys, they go out and go out to hundreds or even thousands of employees where as focus groups, I think, are brilliant sometimes just to take it back down to basics and just get a few back a selection of people from different departments different levels, different teams, just to stand back and have a normal conversation and listen to what they think about what you're trying to launch something new across the business or wherever it's just general culture or whatever it is that you, you want to find out more about or improve. Just Just talk to people that can't underestimate the value of actually listed, rather than hiding behind emails or whatever it is we do now and it's obviously harder now, we are, we aren't in the office. But there are still ways of doing it over the video calls over the capture up so for everything that's everyone doing just to try and get that firsthand conversation feel and honesty and build relationships with each other.

Mike O’Hara 28:10
I think it's really interesting is that remember the advice and the kind of top tips we gave in Episode One was probably very very similar to what we've just talked about there we've kind of come full circle for this series. In that, it's always going to be important. We've come on a massive journey from Episode One certainly society has we  have personally served on this before lockdown

Mike O’Hara 28:30
exactly but we were still giving that kind of same advice to connect with people because we could foresee that there's going to be a difficult situation we've obviously moved forward now we've had this dreadful period we're kind of looking at getting back into the workplace, but we're still trying to emphasise that the only way that we can address any kind of challenge and particularly in a time and we're all experiencing something like this, pandemic situation for the first time that the only way we'll get through things is to connect and to listen to one another. I feel sad because it's in the same as Abby said we will 100% be back with a second series after a short break and what we will try to do is to continue to address the topics that matter for you in terms of mental health and well being and again, but emphasise that if you feel like you have a story to tell, or you know somebody who would be a brilliant guest for a happy employee podcast and please please do let us know. Yeah,

Abbey O'Hara 29:25
and I hope that you still continue to enjoy listening to these because we have really enjoyed unexpectedly,

Mike O’Hara 29:33
enjoy doing it, it's been. Yeah,

Abbey O'Hara 29:36
it's been amazing. Yeah. So, thank you everyone, and have a great

Mike O’Hara 29:41
September. See you again soon see Thanks everyone. Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai